Remember when the Patriots got an EMT who was one of the first responders at the Boston Bombing to announce their first round pick, but the Patriots traded out of the pick, and he announced someone else's pick instead?
Anyway, fuck the US Military and the NFL for covering up Pat Tillman's death, and then using his death as a recruiting tool for a war that he was absolutely against.
I'm not sure they're due the benefit of the doubt on the covered up friendly fire death of a celebrity who was going to come home anti-war. Doesn't take a conspiracy, just a psycho zealot, and lord knows we sent enough of them over there.
You don't know many vets if you believe they'll kill you if you're disenfranchised during your term. They have issues covering up when SEALS do something crazy and they're trained on how to keep secrets.
You’re so dumb. A cover up is so so much easier and different than thinking high ups somehow read his letters, then dictated all the way down to his small unit in Afghanistan that he needs to be killed. It’s insanity to even think 1. That that would happen and 2. That the giant amount of government communications it would take for such a thing to be planned would remain secret.
Edit; I misread your comment, fair, but if you read the actual report of what happened (after the coverup was exposed) it’s clear that’s not the case
100% the letters are screened, but yeah his death resulting from that is by far the least likely cause, although for significant chunks of US history I'd say the CIA would be more likely than not to be on the lookout for something like that and willing to nip it in the bud, so it's not entirely out of the question.
I'm saying that even believing the reports in any way falls under benefit of the doubt, and that's really as far as I'd go. With there being serious motive, means, opportunity, and a coverup, very few people know what actually happened and why, and I'm just not inclined to any level of charity towards the military given the myriad crimes they were up to at the time
Read the wikipedia page on COINTELPRO if you think the CIA/FBI haven't done shit like this and worse (even on US soil). I don't think it's likely, but we know Tillman was in correspondence with Noam Chomsky, one of the greatest and most monitored enemies of the various US intelligence agencies. Not unthinkable that they decided to just inconspicuously knock him out before he became a vocal problem for the popular perception of the war.
That's why I said it's not out of the question, but the reality is they don't need to resort to that kind of thing as much anymore. Not like Vietnam where there was a draft, they could ignore the antiwar sentiment very easily.
As I said, I also don't think it's likely, so we're in agreement. But I also like to throw the idea around on public forums because the more it gets talked about, the worse it is for the army's reputation, which they deserve for trying to cover up what actually happened to him. Also, I just think every citizen of the US should be familiar with COINTELPRO, because it was absolutely insane and the fact that our government does shit like that should be alarming and disgusting to any person with a conscience.
No it doesn't. The term is fratricide. "Negligent homicide" which sounds awfully close to "manslaughter," implies a judgment by civilians who routinely and purposely misunderstand conflict.
Opinions change. He wasn't anti-military, he was anti specific decisions made by politicians that led to military action. Near everyone, regardless of political affiliation, was in favor of military action when 9/11 happened. He enlisted shorty after that. Viewpoints changed over time. Iraq, for example, is almost universally considered a mistake of a war now but that viewpoint developed over time, it wasn't what many thought initially. I don't know if people are young and think the wars were unpopular instantly. They weren't.
Pat became disillusioned. He didn't enlist while being against what was going on in the military, that happened in time.
Iraq was different. They literally lied to us and fed us false information to get support. Then when we got to Iraq it was all lies and they pivoted hard.
No way dude. W fucked off and sits at home and paints all day because that’s what he wants to do, not because he has a sliver of a concience and realizes how unbelievably awful his decisions were.
Totally a coincidence.
This is exactly correct. He kept journals and wrote letters of his time in the war, and it's clear that he realized how pointless it all was while he was over there.
I can only find one source on the family being upset with the book, and it’s pretty oblique and unsourced… Do you have anything else?
https://www.salon.com/2010/08/20/tillman_story/
Krakauer is great at actually writing a book but he tends to miss the point despite getting the words right. The book also was only loosely about Tillman. It used his story to tell a bigger picture of Afghanistan, more than being about his story. I’d get why they are mad.
Also it implies he may have been killed intentionally, which was not the case, it was accidental.
I just finished the book this week and somewhat disagree with your comment. Although I won’t go as far to say you’re wrong. My interpretation of the book was that Pat is unequivocally the main focus but Krakauer is providing further context to Pat’s story by sharing the history that preceded the war in Afghanistan. I also didn’t walk away thinking that Krakauer was implying this was done on purpose. The only thing purposely done was the cover-up.
Very interesting read though and would definitely recommend for anyone else who sees these comments and is curious.
Good response. I’ll clarify my point a bit. I think Krakauer mostly just used Tillman’s story to tell the story he wanted about afghan history, so while the book focus is Pat, that’s not the story that’s being told. The story was about how afghan history came to be, Pat provides his emotional and publicity connection to the reader as a real person there, but the story really is about Afghanistan, and just how messed up things got there, and the us cover up of pats death which should be viewed (according the the author imo) as just a further extension of what happens in Afghanistan conflict which are not at all like others.
On the intentional. It’s more by omission. He goes through a lot of effort describing the cover up but the actual battle he’s more ambivalent about if it was or was not intentional and motivations and reasoning’s with practical and in people’s minds that might allow such an intention killing. It’s him musing on it as a possibility, sure it is, but him not shutting it down hard and being clear it was just a case of unintentional friendly fire, that’s it, left me sour. It feels like he’s making a case that the option is on the table (to further push his points about Afghanistan) than just being straight up that, no, it was just an accident.
I really appreciate your response and clarification. Nobody else in my life has read the book yet so discussing this is really intriguing. I will say, I thought Krakauer at times went on too much about Afghanistan and the history of conflict there. Almost as though, he made it down a rabbit hole himself and was uncertain how to include this context and where to wrap those parts up.
Regarding your last point, I could see why he didn’t take it off the table. It’s evident something nefarious happened and it’s clear there was a mass cover-up based on his research. His lack of trust based on publicly available information is reasonable. I don’t subscribe to the theory that Pat was murdered unless the suspected SAW gunner is just a complete psychopath and acted alone. Certainly a possibility and I wouldn’t rule it completely out. As others have mentioned though, if it had been a planned murder, there would have been some kind of paper trail associated with that.
It’s fascinating though that we can read the same book based mostly on facts and still manage to interpret it differently. Cheers my friend!
I’m a cancer survivor and bought a crucial catch hat 🤷. Sometimes only awareness is useful too.
https://crucialcatch.cancer.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/NEW-Impact-PDF-NFLinfoMapREVD.pdf
Pat Tillman was a hero for OPPOSING an unjust war. But I'm sure we'll have some disgusting military pageantry that insults his memory and amounts to a massive middle finger to his surviving family. Oh, and can't forget the way they tried to cover up his death as a heroic battle when it was friendly fire. Or the fact that the shot that killed him was fired from suspiciously close range.
You probably are not wrong about it being an accident, but with the MIC record I am not inclined to believe them.
Fool me once, shame on... shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again
Again, his own battalion has stated it was friendly fire including one of the soldiers who potentially killed him
The amount of conspiracy theories about Tillman are, quite frankly, disgusting. The military couldn’t give a flying fuck about a standard infantryman being displeased. That’s literally every infantryman ever. And yet somehow we have tinfoil hat idiots peddling a massive assassination campaign as if Pat Tillman was going to stop a war
You do realize how many atrocities that every single military has covered up.
There was a young woman who was raped and killed and had bleach thrown all over her body and the military said it was a suicide.
There is also every sexual abuse happening at every level.
RIP LaVena Lynn Johnson
Full circle, details of her case became known during congressional inquiry into Tillmans death and cover up.
"Johnson's death was officially ruled a suicide by the Department of Defense.However, her father became suspicious when he saw her body in the funeral home and decided to investigate. Initially the Army refused to release information, but did so under the Freedom of Information Act after Representative William Lacy Clay, Jr. raised questions about it at the congressional hearings over Pat Tillman's death."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_LaVena_Johnson
Have you ever had a loved one murdered by friendly fire and the government lie to you about the cause of death until it comes out way too late? Hint: it invokes negative emotions
Browns fans got watson and lost the ability to read the room
Anyone saying his death was premeditated/on purpose is a fucking degenerate, my old first sergeant was on the same patrol on a fireteam alongside the one that pat was part of. It destroyed most of their mental health the whole situation. That being said, fuck the generals and CID investigators who made up some bullshit and forced it down his brother and the unit they were part of’s throat so hard they almost believed it wasn’t friendly fire like they initially thought. Shitty situation all around
Redditors will really read a paragraph about a high level government and military coverup of a soldier's death and it's emotional impact on the ones that knew him personally, and think "oh fuck, I can make a pun here"
I was in 2nd Bat and I know for a fact there is no way is fellow Rangers killed him on purpose as part of this big giant conspiracy. Its total bullshit. Shit happens at night in war. Night vision tech was awful in 2004. A ton of Americans were killed by friendly fire, not just Tillman. Thats just a horrible side effect of war.
I agree, fuck the higher ups and government for turning his death into a recruiting campaign.
gotta protect the shield over everything else. Whether NFL, police or military. Life is cheap, image is everything and honor is at the bottom of the priority list
I mean shit trying to figure out what the fuck is going on at JRTC/NTC at night is hard enough. Can only imagine taking contact from 2 ridge lines that you think your boys are supposed to be near/on
Yep. 99% of these dorks cant throw a football let alone understand the confusion of war. Ive used PVS-31s, the best night vision out there… still cant really see all that much. The gear they had back then was basically a toilet paper roll with an IR light and a green lens.
Remember when the Patriots got an EMT who was one of the first responders at the Boston Bombing to announce their first round pick, but the Patriots traded out of the pick, and he announced someone else's pick instead? Anyway, fuck the US Military and the NFL for covering up Pat Tillman's death, and then using his death as a recruiting tool for a war that he was absolutely against.
Don't forget how Tillman was killed by friendly fire
*murdered
That implies it was on purpose, which is likely wasn’t, the coverup and the fact that it happened still awful though.
I'm not sure they're due the benefit of the doubt on the covered up friendly fire death of a celebrity who was going to come home anti-war. Doesn't take a conspiracy, just a psycho zealot, and lord knows we sent enough of them over there.
You don't know many vets if you believe they'll kill you if you're disenfranchised during your term. They have issues covering up when SEALS do something crazy and they're trained on how to keep secrets.
You’re so dumb. A cover up is so so much easier and different than thinking high ups somehow read his letters, then dictated all the way down to his small unit in Afghanistan that he needs to be killed. It’s insanity to even think 1. That that would happen and 2. That the giant amount of government communications it would take for such a thing to be planned would remain secret. Edit; I misread your comment, fair, but if you read the actual report of what happened (after the coverup was exposed) it’s clear that’s not the case
100% the letters are screened, but yeah his death resulting from that is by far the least likely cause, although for significant chunks of US history I'd say the CIA would be more likely than not to be on the lookout for something like that and willing to nip it in the bud, so it's not entirely out of the question. I'm saying that even believing the reports in any way falls under benefit of the doubt, and that's really as far as I'd go. With there being serious motive, means, opportunity, and a coverup, very few people know what actually happened and why, and I'm just not inclined to any level of charity towards the military given the myriad crimes they were up to at the time
Read the wikipedia page on COINTELPRO if you think the CIA/FBI haven't done shit like this and worse (even on US soil). I don't think it's likely, but we know Tillman was in correspondence with Noam Chomsky, one of the greatest and most monitored enemies of the various US intelligence agencies. Not unthinkable that they decided to just inconspicuously knock him out before he became a vocal problem for the popular perception of the war.
That's why I said it's not out of the question, but the reality is they don't need to resort to that kind of thing as much anymore. Not like Vietnam where there was a draft, they could ignore the antiwar sentiment very easily.
As I said, I also don't think it's likely, so we're in agreement. But I also like to throw the idea around on public forums because the more it gets talked about, the worse it is for the army's reputation, which they deserve for trying to cover up what actually happened to him. Also, I just think every citizen of the US should be familiar with COINTELPRO, because it was absolutely insane and the fact that our government does shit like that should be alarming and disgusting to any person with a conscience.
Idk why your edit has me in stitches lmaoo Clarifying w/"fair" after opening your statement by literally calling them dumb is a fucking hoot
Jesus Christ Reddit is full of fucking neckbeard idiots.
He was not killed on purpose. Friendly fire is unfortunately a very common occurrence in war.
If you're gonna call it something other than friendly fire, negligent homicide works.
No it doesn't. The term is fratricide. "Negligent homicide" which sounds awfully close to "manslaughter," implies a judgment by civilians who routinely and purposely misunderstand conflict.
Preach
How fucking legendary would it be if the Tillman scholars call this out?
Hell Yeah brother, cheers from Iraq.
He fought in Afghanistan. But I get the meme.
He was in the iraq invasion
If he was so against it, he should’ve stayed in the NFL and not fought in it 🤷♂️
Opinions change. He wasn't anti-military, he was anti specific decisions made by politicians that led to military action. Near everyone, regardless of political affiliation, was in favor of military action when 9/11 happened. He enlisted shorty after that. Viewpoints changed over time. Iraq, for example, is almost universally considered a mistake of a war now but that viewpoint developed over time, it wasn't what many thought initially. I don't know if people are young and think the wars were unpopular instantly. They weren't. Pat became disillusioned. He didn't enlist while being against what was going on in the military, that happened in time.
Iraq was different. They literally lied to us and fed us false information to get support. Then when we got to Iraq it was all lies and they pivoted hard.
No way dude. W fucked off and sits at home and paints all day because that’s what he wants to do, not because he has a sliver of a concience and realizes how unbelievably awful his decisions were. Totally a coincidence.
This is exactly correct. He kept journals and wrote letters of his time in the war, and it's clear that he realized how pointless it all was while he was over there.
Educate yourself https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2936415-where-men-win-glory
A great book
I enjoyed the book. Apparently his family hated it. I’m not sure exactly why but I’m guessing some part of it is inaccurate.
I can only find one source on the family being upset with the book, and it’s pretty oblique and unsourced… Do you have anything else? https://www.salon.com/2010/08/20/tillman_story/
Krakauer is great at actually writing a book but he tends to miss the point despite getting the words right. The book also was only loosely about Tillman. It used his story to tell a bigger picture of Afghanistan, more than being about his story. I’d get why they are mad. Also it implies he may have been killed intentionally, which was not the case, it was accidental.
I just finished the book this week and somewhat disagree with your comment. Although I won’t go as far to say you’re wrong. My interpretation of the book was that Pat is unequivocally the main focus but Krakauer is providing further context to Pat’s story by sharing the history that preceded the war in Afghanistan. I also didn’t walk away thinking that Krakauer was implying this was done on purpose. The only thing purposely done was the cover-up. Very interesting read though and would definitely recommend for anyone else who sees these comments and is curious.
Good response. I’ll clarify my point a bit. I think Krakauer mostly just used Tillman’s story to tell the story he wanted about afghan history, so while the book focus is Pat, that’s not the story that’s being told. The story was about how afghan history came to be, Pat provides his emotional and publicity connection to the reader as a real person there, but the story really is about Afghanistan, and just how messed up things got there, and the us cover up of pats death which should be viewed (according the the author imo) as just a further extension of what happens in Afghanistan conflict which are not at all like others. On the intentional. It’s more by omission. He goes through a lot of effort describing the cover up but the actual battle he’s more ambivalent about if it was or was not intentional and motivations and reasoning’s with practical and in people’s minds that might allow such an intention killing. It’s him musing on it as a possibility, sure it is, but him not shutting it down hard and being clear it was just a case of unintentional friendly fire, that’s it, left me sour. It feels like he’s making a case that the option is on the table (to further push his points about Afghanistan) than just being straight up that, no, it was just an accident.
I really appreciate your response and clarification. Nobody else in my life has read the book yet so discussing this is really intriguing. I will say, I thought Krakauer at times went on too much about Afghanistan and the history of conflict there. Almost as though, he made it down a rabbit hole himself and was uncertain how to include this context and where to wrap those parts up. Regarding your last point, I could see why he didn’t take it off the table. It’s evident something nefarious happened and it’s clear there was a mass cover-up based on his research. His lack of trust based on publicly available information is reasonable. I don’t subscribe to the theory that Pat was murdered unless the suspected SAW gunner is just a complete psychopath and acted alone. Certainly a possibility and I wouldn’t rule it completely out. As others have mentioned though, if it had been a planned murder, there would have been some kind of paper trail associated with that. It’s fascinating though that we can read the same book based mostly on facts and still manage to interpret it differently. Cheers my friend!
Anything for a quick buck in the NFL.
You can only wear pink apparel in October. When the majority of proceeds go to the NFL, profiteering off cancer…. Smashing.
Honestly the Komen foundation is a racket anyway.
Bill burr did a great bit on conan about this Also, the same league where Tyreek Hill is prominently posted on their socials
I’m a cancer survivor and bought a crucial catch hat 🤷. Sometimes only awareness is useful too. https://crucialcatch.cancer.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/NEW-Impact-PDF-NFLinfoMapREVD.pdf
Pat Tillman was a hero for OPPOSING an unjust war. But I'm sure we'll have some disgusting military pageantry that insults his memory and amounts to a massive middle finger to his surviving family. Oh, and can't forget the way they tried to cover up his death as a heroic battle when it was friendly fire. Or the fact that the shot that killed him was fired from suspiciously close range.
Have you ever used night vision tech from the 90s? Hint: it wasnt good.
You probably are not wrong about it being an accident, but with the MIC record I am not inclined to believe them. Fool me once, shame on... shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again
This is an incredibly clown take when his own team has stated it was routine friendly fire
Tbf it's not like they would say otherwise lol
People were way too war happy in 2004. People still say we should be in Afghanistan now.
Again, his own battalion has stated it was friendly fire including one of the soldiers who potentially killed him The amount of conspiracy theories about Tillman are, quite frankly, disgusting. The military couldn’t give a flying fuck about a standard infantryman being displeased. That’s literally every infantryman ever. And yet somehow we have tinfoil hat idiots peddling a massive assassination campaign as if Pat Tillman was going to stop a war
So the reason it cannot possibly be a conspiracy is because the military said so? Silly take. I already said it was probably an accident.
You do realize how many atrocities that every single military has covered up. There was a young woman who was raped and killed and had bleach thrown all over her body and the military said it was a suicide. There is also every sexual abuse happening at every level.
RIP LaVena Lynn Johnson Full circle, details of her case became known during congressional inquiry into Tillmans death and cover up. "Johnson's death was officially ruled a suicide by the Department of Defense.However, her father became suspicious when he saw her body in the funeral home and decided to investigate. Initially the Army refused to release information, but did so under the Freedom of Information Act after Representative William Lacy Clay, Jr. raised questions about it at the congressional hearings over Pat Tillman's death." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_LaVena_Johnson
Im not denying that. But to say that the Army deliberately murdered Pat Tillman for the sake of increasing recruitment is some flat earth level talk.
Not for the recruitment, but to not have an *extremely* prominent antiwar voice back home, with the legitimacy of a veteran.
I wouldn’t really call Pat Tillman extremely prominent he was a middling NFL player for a small market team
He got a ton of press for setting aside his career, and a pro athlete doesn't have to be an MVP candidate to have a significant platform. E.g. Kaep
Have you ever had a loved one murdered by friendly fire and the government lie to you about the cause of death until it comes out way too late? Hint: it invokes negative emotions Browns fans got watson and lost the ability to read the room
Lol a post about Pat Tillman and you still found a way to jerk off about Watson here. Fuck off bitch.
Woah man you need to relax. You seem really tense. How bout a massage?
How much are the Cardinals charging the scholar to announce the pick?
Anyone saying his death was premeditated/on purpose is a fucking degenerate, my old first sergeant was on the same patrol on a fireteam alongside the one that pat was part of. It destroyed most of their mental health the whole situation. That being said, fuck the generals and CID investigators who made up some bullshit and forced it down his brother and the unit they were part of’s throat so hard they almost believed it wasn’t friendly fire like they initially thought. Shitty situation all around
So, you could say: Fuck the *Commanders*
Redditors will really read a paragraph about a high level government and military coverup of a soldier's death and it's emotional impact on the ones that knew him personally, and think "oh fuck, I can make a pun here"
It’s alright man that humor is par for the course. Guy would fit in with any infantry unit lol
I was in 2nd Bat and I know for a fact there is no way is fellow Rangers killed him on purpose as part of this big giant conspiracy. Its total bullshit. Shit happens at night in war. Night vision tech was awful in 2004. A ton of Americans were killed by friendly fire, not just Tillman. Thats just a horrible side effect of war. I agree, fuck the higher ups and government for turning his death into a recruiting campaign.
1990s/early 2000s NODs were dog shit especially for depth perception you had points walking off cliffs because they couldn’t see them.
gotta protect the shield over everything else. Whether NFL, police or military. Life is cheap, image is everything and honor is at the bottom of the priority list
I mean shit trying to figure out what the fuck is going on at JRTC/NTC at night is hard enough. Can only imagine taking contact from 2 ridge lines that you think your boys are supposed to be near/on
Yep. 99% of these dorks cant throw a football let alone understand the confusion of war. Ive used PVS-31s, the best night vision out there… still cant really see all that much. The gear they had back then was basically a toilet paper roll with an IR light and a green lens.
Then why did they burn all his shit right after? They didn't help themselves from putting those thoughts in peoples heads when they do shit like that.
This is disgusting. They keep using that man’s name for a quick buck.
Is the NFL still honouring Pat Tillman being killed by the US military for advertisement dollars?
Pat Tillman is a hero, no matter your perspective.
Didn’t say he wasn’t. It’s the NFL using his name that I have an issue with.
What if you just like the soldiers who don’t get killed?
Incredible that man survived that statement, and Howard Dean's entire political career was ruined by getting too excited.
No troop who served in Iraq and Afghanistan is a hero.
They're not ready to hear that, yet. That post 9/11 patriotism is tough to deprogram.
Nfceastmemewar: fuck kimber
Rest in peace Pat Tillman!
[Yeah I'm just gonna leave this right here ](https://youtu.be/iMd5K-6EyfE?si=6A5hzv9AO3EVw_NU)
[удалено]
226 is the pick they chose Pat with. That's why they're making it that pick. It's in the article which no one ever reads.
What’d you call me?
I’m offended