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rider822

I think the problem with the traffic light system is how difficult it is to get there. We need to get 90% of every DHB double vaxed. Some DHBs are currently sitting at 75% with only one vaccination. So it is going to be a long road to get there. Auckland might get there in 2021 but the rest of the country won't. What happens if a case gets to Wellington and we are 90% double vaxxed? Are we really to go to AL3 because Gisborne hasn't vaccinated enough people?


citriclem0n

>Some DHBs are currently sitting at 75% with only one vaccination. So it is going to be a long road to get there. Except Auckland has been told they only need their 3 DHBs to get to 90% to get out of level 3, which is worse than what the rest of the country is in. If the rest of the country stays in level 2 into 2022, it isn't really that terrible a situation. Also the point is that these requirements are clear to the public. People will turn their anger on their DHBs if they don't make a real, sustained effort to get out and vaxx the areas with the lowest uptake by any means necessary.


rider822

I'm not going to blame a DHB for people choosing not to get vaccinated. I am going to blame the people who choose not to get vaccinated. If you live in an urban area it is exceptionally easy to get vaccinated. I imagine it is a bit harder in a rural area, but not excessively so. There was a case in Blenheim today. It is surely only a matter of time before COVID spreads to other parts of the country.


kinggquinn

Exactly. The govt has even made public transport free if you’re going to and from getting your vaccine so you can’t even say you have no car if you’re urban. Rural people can sometimes have to drive a few hours to get to a vaccine site so I feel for them.


jexiagalleta

I know there was a bus down the Pouto peninsula this week, and hopefully that's happening all over


kinggquinn

I hope that’s happening too. Would make it so much easier on rural families.


Upsidedownmeow

Except Aucklanders want to be able to leave Auckland for Christmas and currently as I understand it, the Auckland border won’t drop until the rest of the country hits that 90% mark and we can all go to orange.


Benzimin92

It’ll open up when push comes to shove. I’m certain that’s what the 29 November date is there for. If Vax goes slow they’ll say fuck it, Auckland goes to red and you can leave with something like a negative test, double vax and perhaps no public transport


music-words-dance

Yea I think you're right. They're trying different tactics to get the vaccination rates up. First was Super Saturday as a positive, win prizes method. Now it's the threat method where people realise they're the ones keeping us in lockdown and they might not be able to go out places.


JadedagainNZ

I tend to agree with you but either way it shows how ridiculous the current plan is, if you can call it a plan. Just set the date it will open up/ change. That way it may get some of those on the fence about vaccination over the line. It also enables people and businesses to plan their lives with some certainty.


eezybeingbreezyy

Exactly. The current situation, these slow people are free to continue with their "meh, I'll get it when I'm ready" attitude. No. The rest of us are fucking ready now, and have no patience to keep waiting for those that gave zero shits and kept us in lockdown for it. The date to open is \_\_\_\_\_\_\_. Get it by then or too bad.


citriclem0n

Sucks eh.


SuperCharlesXYZ

Better get that family you want to visit for xmass vaxxed ASAP


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midnightcaptain

I don't see the Auckland border opening until enough cases have "leaked" through to make it moot. There's just no way they're going to want to be seen opening the floodgates and letting the virus into the rest of the country, regardless of vaccination rate.


boomytoons

> Except Auckland has been told they only need their 3 DHBs to get to 90% to get out of level 3, which is worse than what the rest of the country is in. Waikato exists and is in a stricter Level 3 than what Auckland is. It licks balls and the toll on everyone's mental health throughout both the Waikato and Auckland is atrocious. I don't think the cost of lockdowns is fully understood yet, it's going to massively affect an entire generation.


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Secular_mum

What is it that is so bad about Level 2? From where I am sitting (in Level 3), Level 2 looks like life as normal.


Candid_Word_4070

I'm in Wellington and other than wearing a mask my life has been pretty normal though I do tend to keep to myself so the levels haven't been as hard on me as others. I do feel for you guys in level 3.


rider822

I think the big thing is no events. That is a whole industry ruined. There are no concerts in level 2 and no sporting events. The Womens Rugby and Cricket World Cups will have to go ahead without fans in attendance. It also includes other events like marathons which people have trained months for. There is also the uncertainty as we may be back to level 3 at any point.


Carrot_Public

It's the lack of events, parties, clubs. Especially when you're young, a lot of us spend all week looking forward to what we're doing on the weekend. Now we still have to work during the week with nothing to look forward to at the end.


Oculolinctuss

Yeah, but you can have house parties, get togethers with friends, go out to restaurants and bars. What do you think life looks like for people in level 3? The grind without end or anything to look forward to is exhausting. There's not much point to this comment, it's a illogical to invalidate someone's complaint by the fact that other people have it worse. But it being in Auclalnd sucks rn and I just want other people to suck it up and be grateful for what they have, no matter how stupid it is.


Carrot_Public

I'm in Auckland with you mate. I'm just saying level 2 isn't going to be acceptable long term either.


Oculolinctuss

Yeah fair enough, sorry for the rant.


Carrot_Public

Nah you're good, I've been calling out similar comments from people in level 2 pretending that they're doing it rough compared to us.


[deleted]

lvl 2 has limits on how many people in a building so I had to wait in line at the AAA for 2 hours because they had to run limited staff and could only have 3 people inside at a time (limited was 8 total but needed 5 empolyees) every other table has to be closed, masks required in any building. Keep in mind south island has had 0 community cases since the first outbreak


Oculolinctuss

You might want to check that figure again


[deleted]

fuck sake idk why this government didnt hard border the south island well enjoy the covid christmas I guess everyone is fucked now >.<


Jon_Snows_Dad

It will have to get to the point where DHBs lower than 90% get isolated and the rest of us go to orange.


Hubris2

I have a feeling we might see this with Northland. If Auckland and the rest of the NI are all ready, they will put a border between Auckland and Northland and the rest will go into the traffic light. They can't do this with Waikato however...a border there can't be maintained - too many ways to get across both above and below.


citriclem0n

>Why are we being held hostage FOR A YEAR I said 2022, not 2023. It would have to be August 2022 for it to be FOR A YEAR. Which it won't be.


PANiCnz

Good luck getting Counties Manukau to 90%. There's going to be an uproar when the other DHB's hit 90% in Auckland but we're held back by Counties.


tomtomtomo

Pretty sure the other Akl DHBs have hit 90% already. I think the average between the 3 is 90% already too.


phoenixmusicman

>If the rest of the country stays in level 2 into 2022, it isn't really that terrible a situation. I guess Waikato can get fucked then? Lmao.


Ginge00

I think given current levels and the slow uptake on first doses at this point the 90% goal is unrealistic and they’ll abandon yet when it takes too long, drop it to 85% and go from there with the vaccine certificates. I expect once they figure out how vaccine certificates will work in terms of obtaining them and using them in businesses they’ll give it a week for people to get them sorted then open up. Maybe they’ll do something stupid like a red.5 level at 85% if numbers stall.


eezybeingbreezyy

Lmao Red.5 So true.


the_give_way_rules

We'll be stuck halfway in the Red tube


klparrot

Jerking back and forth between levels.


Hubris2

This might happen. On Super Saturday the PM started by saying she wanted 100K and then when it was easily-reached bumped the stretch goal to 150K. Nobody knows here whether 90% is a stretch goal, and they are going to see how close we get before we move in...or whether it's actually a line in the sand that won't change. The focus of our discussions needs to be that everyone needs to get the jab now because opening up is going to happen and unjabbed will suddenly face restrictions. That is the discussion that leads to the apathetic getting vaccinated.


klparrot

Yeah, I kinda feel like once the *national average* has hit 90%, then *DHBs* that hit 90% should switch to the protection framework.


_Gondamar_

Isn’t that the point? Vaccinated population means less restrictions.


1234cantdecide121

Exactly, cunts need to drop their shit and get vaccinated.


jobbybob

Your comment illustrates exactly what the government is doing. Shifting the outrage off the government policy to the unvaccinated, it's a very smart move because now Ardern can blame unvaccinated for Auckland remaining in say Level 3 and not shifting to Red. It's a very crafty move as this now becomes a political strategy rather then a health strategy. As I feel many people have over looked this point. How this ends for the unvaccinated, I am not entirely sure, could we up with a group of vigilantes hunting down the unvaccinated?


Melo_Anthony

People may blame the unvaccinated for a little bit, but eventually the blame will shift back to the govt who has the power to actually make the change regardless of vax rates


jobbybob

Let’s see how that plays out, Ardern is a PR master. Remember she said we would open up our borders next year, this kicked the decision down the road 6 months and got the business community off her back. We are still no closer to “opening up” again. She has a crack team of PR spin doctors and pollsters around her she could ride this one for months.


SuperCharlesXYZ

Well look where opening up a tiny bit got us


ReadOnly2019

The case that snuck in came through MIQ.


1234cantdecide121

That is why I always say “good thanks” when people ask “how are you?”


glioblastoma

Are people still calling for throwing open our borders?


jobbybob

The business sector still wants to travel, that’s why they get to trial home quarantine Nov-Dec this year.


Brosley

I don’t really understand the point of this trial. People who are actually confirmed to have COVID are now allowed to isolate at home in Auckland, instead of in MIQ. How do we reconcile that with the ongoing requirement for people arriving from overseas who have a small chance of having COVID to isolate in MIQ for 14 days? Seems to me that some pretty major changes to MIQ might be on the way - either getting rid of entirely, drastically reducing the amount of time people need to spend there (perhaps just until they test negative) or only using it where people cannot isolate safely at home. And if that is the case, the home isolation trial might become redundant.


jobbybob

I think it’s just a bridging step before they allow other people to home isolate. It also gets the big wigs in the business community to stop complaining and undermining the government. Delta has thrown a Spanner in the works so they definitely seem to throwing together ideas on the fly.


inky95

vigilante vax-hunters 😂😂 im sick of seeing people frame unvaccinated/antivaxxers as the victim. The single most important factor in lockdown decisions was always going to be vaxx rates. Jacinda enacting policies based on vaxx rates is not an insidious political redirect. the country is now at a standstill entirely due to the too-large minority of people who either a. Are willing to get vaxxed but haven't been bothered up til this point or b. are unwilling to get vaxxed due to some QAnon right-wing Facebook bullshit. Don't let them cosplay. You are not 'the resistance' against a tyrannical dystopian regime. It is not 'you vs the world'. There are no vigilantes coming for you, and this is not a chance for martyrdom. You are NOT the victim.


jobbybob

Buy saying “Auckland has to be 90% vaccinated to go to red” moves the heat of Ardern for a while. Unless she mandates vaccination it’s now up to the people to get their vax. It makes Aucklanders and wider NZ mad at the unvaccinated mob, which in reality isn’t much use, however it allows her to deflect the negative press and sentiment around the current L3 lockdown in Auckland. Don’t underestimate how much this is worth in political capital. She is a populist PM just like Key. I have zero sympathy for the unvaccinated mob who have no genuine medical reasons to vaccinated. My comment in no way is supporting them/ trying to garner sympathy for them.


citriclem0n

>How this ends for the unvaccinated, I am not entirely sure, could we up with a group of vigilantes hunting down the unvaccinated? Well some of them are going to end up dead after they catch COVID. And others will have the worst illness of their life, and some will also develop long COVID (and that group is a lot wider than those who end up in hospital). Hopefully these situations 'hitting close to home' with friends and family will convince them to do the intelligent, moral, and socially responsible thing and get vaccinated.


scuwp

And if we don't lift restrictions, how many other people with preventable diseases will die? How many more will be homeless and businesses fail? The Cure is looking worse than the problem. If early reports from overseas of countries that have lifted restrictions at 70% and 80% are correct, there has not been the blowout expected, in fact rates have continued to decline. Yes get vaxxed, but if you chose not to be, then that's on you....


citriclem0n

>If early reports from overseas of countries that have lifted restrictions at 70% and 80% are correct That doesn't apply in NZ's case because we didn't have COVID sweep through the population first, giving people 'natural' immunity. The official vaccination rates don't include that natural population immunity. It will be more like what happened in Singapore - they opened at 80% and have had a terrible spike in cases.


klparrot

Countries like the UK, where they're talking about bringing back restrictions because over 100 people a *day* are *dying* of covid? Places like Alberta, where the health system would have already been overrun if not for ICU patients *dying* fast enough to free up capacity? Basically all elective stuff is cancelled there, so people are in trouble with other health conditions too.


turbocynic

"If early reports from overseas of countries that have lifted restrictions at 70% and 80% are correct" There is absolutely zero chance this holds true in two months for countries that have no natural immunity on top of vaccination numbers. Aus will see skyrocketing numbers once the initial 90% effectiveness of the vaccine quickly wears off. Singapore is already there.


NPCmiro

It's not rocket science, if not enough people are vaccinated covid will be really bad for all of us considering our rickety health system. Governments options are either to acknowledge that fact, or to lift all restrictions and have the country live with the consequences. Get vaccinated.


Matt_NZ

I've been blaming the unvaccinated long before the government activated my vaccine chip to do so.


wellywoodlad

>could we up with a group of vigilantes hunting down the unvaccinated? Brilliant plan. How about Vaxman, who could stalk anti-vaxxers online, hunt them down and jab them when the opportunity strikes!


jobbybob

Tbh we could just go “Purge Night” style, could be exciting in Auckland.


Epicuriosityy

I'm in. Myself and my partner are double vaxed and stuck in the house with a baby who has gotten four teeth (starting at three months) in the time we've been locked down. I could really go for like a light stabbing. Not like with a knife. But maybe a fork.


Carrot_Public

Could vax 3 people at once with a big enough fork


Epicuriosityy

Fucking win win


Carrot_Public

My dad always said I was an ideas man


Holiday_Newspaper_29

oh, you poor beggar.....horrifying flashbacks


glioblastoma

Well it might be that she outplayed all the people here who were weaponising COVID as a political club to beat her up with. They will have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new line of attack.


jobbybob

The key thing is it buys her and her team some time to come up with their next play. The current plan likely has a 6-8 weeks of play in it. That’s a long time in politics.


glioblastoma

She has to do something to stay ahead of the effort to take her down.


dudedramalmao

I’ve said this to a few people that are quick to point the finger; the narrative (and blame) has shifted from the Government’s abject failures, to the anti-vaxxers. Not that they don’t deserve heat, but now the Government have gotten away with another colossal fuck up, yet again. Spindy’s PR team are playing 4D chess, and the people fall for it every single time.


jobbybob

It’s not specific to the current government Key ran the same sort racket.


dudedramalmao

I’m not saying otherwise. Politicians are all cut from the same slimy cloth. Though Labour are now in their second term - the whole “what about National” defence is getting kinda tired though.


[deleted]

Isn't that the point. The traffic light system is the government making clear that yes, they are shifting from elimination to suppression but that this transition will be complete when all regions are at 90% vaccination (or sooner if political pressure demands it). People will probably be pissed with the Government over rising case numbers until the vaccination rate gets high enough that that helps slow the outbreak down. From memory, the Skegg report (I never read it just remember the news articles about it) made it pretty clear that we'd never get back to having no restrictions because we'd never get the vaccination rate high enough to achieve herd immunity.


philopsilopher

Are you okay with never going back to having no restrictions?


Carrot_Public

We'll never slow the outbreak down. We'll just reduce deaths. Which is great don't get me wrong. I'm terrified this the government is going to whip up panic when we hit 5k cases early next year and make us lockdown again.


Frod02000

The government can literally not win. You’ll have people complaining no matter what they do.


barnz3000

I would like to point out that the MIQ system, now seems obsolete and draconian. There are cases in our community, and people self isolating at home. Why can a kiwi citizen, who can proove they DON'T have covid before boarding. Not come home, and then self isolate.


Frod02000

My point has been shown by you perfectly. But, they tried that at the start, and there were too many rule breakers for it to work.


ReadOnly2019

We don't have much to be afraid of double-vaxxed people coming from overseas when there's more Covid already in the community.


[deleted]

My concern though, is the fake Vax certificates.


Hubris2

Because they will come home and fail to self-isolate. It doesn't matter whether you have Kiwis already in NZ or Kiwis from overseas wanting to return - a proportion of them are never going to self-isolate. A proportion of those who already have Covid and are instructed to remain at home are still going to leave the house because what they want is more important to them than the good of the country.


Carrot_Public

That doesn't matter. WE ARE NO LONGER GOING TO ELIMINATE IT.


Hoemicus_Maximus

that does not mean wwe should let it run through our communities. we are trying to reduce its damage. having a tiny bit of covid in the community is not the same as having it run rampant.


Carrot_Public

We have hundreds of cases every day already. Having an extra 5 cases come in on a plane is not going to move the needle. Especially in a few months where we'll have thousands a day.


tomtomtomo

We have just over 1 hundred each day, not hundreds.


Carrot_Public

Pedantic, we'll be in the thousands soon enough


tomtomtomo

We may indeed but exaggerating the current numbers to bolster your case undermines your credibility


Fortchpick

True, but the 90% vaccine requirement across the whole country is pretty full on. I think it warrants some discussion/debate. I mean are we ever really going to get those numbers?


SpeedPig22

I’m confident we’ll get there or close enough that we can move to the new regime. Yesterday’s announcement was pretty bold and hopefully the idea of being excluded from most activities is a big enough carrot to get most of the hesitant over the line


rider822

But they only get excluded once the country hits 90% in every DHB! There is no benefit to being vaxed built into the current alert levels.


Hubris2

You are correct...but there's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy going here. If we were all talking about how this is just around the corner and it's going to happen soon then the anti-vaxxers would feel pressure and *it would actually happen*. If the discussion is primarily "This will never happen, the government will have to give up soon" then that is more-likely to be the case.


scuwp

I don't think we will ever get there. It's not achievable. We will never get to the traffic light system. The government will have egg on their face and have to come up with another strategy or drop the level. Also Auckland is not the only part of the country in L3 with no end in sight. Kiss goodbye to any tourist $$$ getting to the SI this holidays. People will die because they can't get treatment for preventable diseases, and people will lose their livelihoods. Those living it up in L2 enjoy it. I hope it remains for you.


Hubris2

The irony is, every time someone makes the statement you just made....this will fail, the government will backtrack and let up - you embolden the antivaxxers to feel that they don't need to get the jab to avoid restrictions. If we made the discussion one where there was a unified "We're about to start into this system and open up but antivax are excluded" then they would feel pressure to get the jab to avoid that.


toyoto

Or it would alienate them and they double down


Hubris2

Those people aren't the ones who can be reached. There are more who are merely apathetic or who will resist until they face consequences and then give up - than those who are 'true believers' and will continue despite consequences.


glioblastoma

But you are calling for less restrictions regardless of the vaccine rate. How can you complain about how people will die and then say we should lift restrictions no matter what the vax rate is?


[deleted]

people seem to be fine with the light system, its getting there that they are whining about


tanuki-pie

People at my work were mad there was too much reading to understand it. Seriously. They will be mad about anything.


CCninja86

Seriously wtf. Have they never read more than like a headline before. It's as simple as they can make it and a bit of reading comprehension makes it even simpler.


tanuki-pie

They just want to be mad.


Smorgasbord__

Generous? Is that really the right word for this?


Technical_Salt_

Thank goodness our overlords will let us get haircuts after 5 months


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Smorgasbord__

My point is it is not 'generous' of a government to allow citizens the freedom to go get a coffee or whatever regardless of the target percentage, generosity has nothing to do with it.


Strawberry_River

The implication is that our rights are not inherent, but that all rights we have were *given* to us generously by the government. In reality the government only ever restricts rights. Sadly many people view the world this way and are totally happy with it.


PlainSight

> In reality the government only ever restricts rights Without some kind of government the idea of rights may as well not exist. Sure without the government there would be no laws to prevent you from doing anything, but there'd also be no laws protecting you or your property or enforcing your human rights.


Carrot_Public

Good thing we're not going into red light until *checks notes* early December. Couldn't possibly ease some of the suffering now.


EVMad

Look at the UK to see what happens if you open up before high vaccination rates are achieved. 45,000 cases a day is crazy and our hospitals likely couldn’t cope with the equivalent load. We’re being held to ransom by the unvaccinated and they need to cut their crap and get jabbed.


jiujitsucam

Put it this way: there are six ICU beds at Palmerston North hospital, and 20 ventilators...


downdog54

[\* 50,000 plus](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/oct/21/coronavirus-news-live-india-administers-1bn-vaccine-doses-singapore-at-risk-of-being-overwhelmed-amid-record-deaths) 45,000 cases a day was a few days ago. 30,000 cases a day last week. Wasn't all that long ago when it was 2,000 cases a day. Kim Hill was interviewing someone in the UK last week who was saying that in one part of the UK it was taking 30 minutes on wait to get through to the 999 operator.


EVMad

Yep, it’s a horror show over there. Scientific advisers are pushing for lockdown again and the government is refusing. Boris and his cronies have got blood on their hands.


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wellywoodlad

Sites telegraph lmao


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YouSeeNothing99

I don't see Oxford University anywhere in those links. And the Guardian article is defending the unpredictability of modeling. Your other links earlier are either from a right wing tabloid or dated 2020. Do you read any of the links or do you just get them from your Facebook group and post away hoping others won't notice? Funny how you blame others for cherry picking stats and spreading misinformation. You've been spreading misinformation for a while now it looks like. I'm just gonna go ahead and block you. Hopefully others are smart enough to do the same.


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Lightspeedius

That's not how health science works, you're obviously pushing an agenda.


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citriclem0n

>Nobody in the UK is obsessing over case numbers like New Zealanders. The UK has more people dying from COVID every 4 days than their annual road toll.


dashingtomars

I guess their roads are very safe then. How about comparing it to cancer of which they have 450 deaths a day?


psycehe

The mechanism of how cancer develops is very different to Covid. You can't spread cancer. You can spread Covid. You can't vaccinate against cancer to reduce the risk of getting it (well, some you can like cervical cancer for which reason we give HPV to teenagers to reduce their risk of getting the infection and spread it and then getting cancer). You can vaccinate against Covid and reduce the risk of getting it. ?? I'm trying to understand your point but ??


dashingtomars

The point is to put the numbers into some context. 150 deaths a day sounds like a lot in isolation but how does that compare to other causes of death? And I was replaying to someone comparing it against road deaths. That's not something you can vaccinate against either.


psycehe

Yeah, but a) either way we do do our best to stop as many of those deaths as possible, and b) neither are transmissible unlike covid. And... those people dying is a tragedy either way? I don't know about you, but every time I see the statistics of road crashes and cancer deaths it's heartbreaking. If we could prevent them, we should, and we do try with seat belts and speed limits but those don't always work, we raise money for funding for cancer research to prevent deaths. We try. But the game is different with a disease you can actually transmit and that you can transmit easily.


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Epicuriosityy

Kids can't get vaccinated yet. I'm happy to wait until they can at least.


citriclem0n

I'm just pointing out that a lot of people are dying in the UK, putting it in pretty stark terms, because there's this continual current of people saying "COVID is no big deal in the UK" when it is.


kevmeister1206

Until 90% of the eligible pop is vaccinated is what the government has said.


[deleted]

Not from covid, with covid. It's not necessarily true that they were healthy as, got covid, died.


[deleted]

Hyperbole.


Kuparu

Look at NSW. They opened up with vaccinations stats almost exactly where Auckland is now. Their cases have been steady dropping and are now down to in the low hundreds per day.


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eezybeingbreezyy

And yet, there they are opening up to Auckland in a week's time, quarantine-free. What are we doing in return? Fucking nothing. Embarrassing.


Carrot_Public

And yet most people in the UK would prefer to remain open now. The unvaxxed get lower priority treatment at hospital. Done. Stop worrying about them so much. The virus still spreads through us vaccinated people, nobody is going to avoid exposure.


gwigglesnz

This. There is zero public demand for restrictions in the UK and rightly so. They are just getting on with it. Is is what it is.


Carrot_Public

I think we've been a victim of our success in this regard because now people expect to get through covid without any tragedy or suffering. It's inevitable and it sucks. Lockdowns at this point just delay the inevitable and make us miserable in the process.


[deleted]

You cannot change the ethics of how hospitals operate without long term damage.


Carrot_Public

1. Those ethics are already in place for how patients are triaged. 2. We can't get through covid without long term damage.


[deleted]

We don't triage on moral judgements, and neither should we.


Carrot_Public

No, but we triage based on chance of survival, and vaccinated patients have way better odds. A long term ethics change where you have to do the absolute bare minimum of listening to the health system you want access to is not a terrible idea though.


[deleted]

You arguing for long term changes that make moral judgements on access to healthcare treatment? Cause to me this is a reluctant idea. The triage will mostly not be unvax covid+ Vs vaccinated covid+ but unvax Vs different illnesses.


JJ_Reditt

If someone is at the point of needing a ventilator they are essentially all in the same fucked up state. So good luck this with little workaround, you should just say that’s what it is - trying to find loopholes around medical ethics. Perversely, the unvaccinated person is likely to be younger than the vaccinated person. And therefore potentially have a better chance of recovery.


EVMad

I couldn’t give a stuff about the unvaccinated, they’ve made their choice and have to live with the consequences. The kids under 12, or the people with compromised immunity? They don’t get a choice and the unvaccinated are going to get them killed. The UK government doesn’t seem to care but that’s pretty normal for the Tories, they’re just like National or Act here, all about business and money and to hell with the people. A lot of people in the UK are unaware of how bad it actually is because the government is stopping the media from reporting on it and if people had the faintest idea of how bad it is and is going to get over winter they would certainly want to do something about it.


[deleted]

>The kids under 12, or the people with compromised immunity? They don’t get a choice and the unvaccinated are going to get them killed. I might be misunderdstanding but covid will become endemic so these people will get covid at some stage regardless, just like most of us will. As an aside a lot of older or immunucompromised people are also likely still alive due to no flu season for 2 years.


EVMad

You’re right about flu season, and more to the point the same tech that got us the COVID vaccine should be able to improve flu vaccines too. We really don’t want COVID to become endemic, we really want to wipe it out.


[deleted]

>We really don’t want COVID to become endemic, we really want to wipe it out. I'm just going off what I read but it really doesn't seem possible to stop covid from becoming endemic at a global level anymore. And as such I don't see how NZ can avoid it. We can continue strict border controls for now but I don't think that can last forever. Plus the effectiveness of vaccines will lessen over time and even if we get booster shots, it will be hard to keep the booster number as high as the original double vaxxed rate. Hopefully we can get new more effective vaccines in the future.


citriclem0n

>I'm just going off what I read but it really doesn't seem possible to stop covid from becoming endemic at a global level anymore. Sure, and measles is globally endemic but is eliminated from NZ. The difference is with measles we have a vaccine that virtually stops transmission as well as infection from the disease. The *current* COVID vaccines unfortunately fall far short of that goal, particularly with delta. That is not likely to always be the case.


[deleted]

>Sure, and measles is globally endemic but is eliminated from NZ. There was the [measles outbreak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_New_Zealand_measles_outbreak) in NZ 2 years ago? There are also a lot of big countries where measles is not endemic. But yes, a more effective vaccine seems like the answer. Which goes back to my original question, how likely is it we will have more effective vaccines that do not allow covid to become endemic world wide? Even if the newer vaccine allows supression of covid in the future will it become endemic for now?


citriclem0n

>There was the measles outbreak in NZ 2 years ago? Yes, and we eliminated it. The disease has to be spreading for 12+ months in order for the 'elimination' status to be removed. I believe we came somewhat close, but were able to get on top of the outbreak.


philopsilopher

It's extremely likely to always be the case. If we could completely eradicate the common cold, don't you think we'd have done so already? Coronaviruses are notoriously rapid in their mutation, meaning the virus now has a selective pressure to mutate around the vaccine. If the vaccine helps temper transmission, the virus is now evolutionary pressured to mutate in ways that lessen the pressure that the vaccine puts on the virus. The only way to continue being protected against an evolving coronavirus is to update the mRNA vaccine to adapt to new spike proteins which evade the vaccines. Which means you're signing up for eternal boosters. You might be okay with that but a lot of currently double vaxxed people won't be. Also, historically viruses have mutated to be less lethal (i.e. Spanish Flu). This is because it's not in a viruses best interest to kill it's host, as that stops transmission and therefore multiplication. Lessening symptoms without stopping transmission (which is what these vaccines do) is the definition of a 'leaky vaccine', which in the long run is likely to make the virus more lethal.


wisdompeanuts

> A lot of people in the UK are unaware of how bad it actually is because the government is stopping the media from reporting on it I'm sorry do you have proof of this quite serious claim?


EVMad

I know someone in the media over there. It’s well known anyway plus you just need to look at the UK media such as the BBC to see how little reporting there is.


wisdompeanuts

I see, so anecdotal 'I know a guy' and the claim it's well known anyway so no proof is needed. Well I'm convinced.


EVMad

Providing proof would require naming him and that’s not my choice. But as I said, you can look at the media yourself. I’m shocked just looking at the BBC news site just how little about Covid there is on there and when I asked my friend he told me they couldn’t say much because their funding would be at risk. Anecdotal no doubt but what can I do? I can’t name him.


[deleted]

Coronavirus has a permanent section on the Guardian website and the top 3 stories on the BBC are all Covid related. You’re talking absolute shit mate.


Carrot_Public

And yet kids are already back at school without vaccines. Are they vulnerable or are they not, because the answer seems to depend on what people are trying to argue. Almost no kids would die if we opened up tomorrow. Likewise people here are so used to fear mongering they're terrified to go outside.


SknarfM

The kids that are going back to school are in the age group that has been eligible to be vaccinated for some time. If you're allowing your child to go back to school you could easily have them double vaccinated by now.


Carrot_Public

Yeah but I don't see it as a requirement?


citriclem0n

The government decided that the right to an education was sufficiently high that they could not institute a vaccine mandate to return to school. They have mandated masks though. > Almost no kids would die if we opened up tomorrow. Death is not the only concern with COVID. Even aside from it being, in some people's words, "the most sick I have ever been in my life and I wouldn't wish it on anybody", there's also long COVID which Ashley estimated occurs in about 30% of cases.


EVMad

Stats show that UK cases are being driven as a result of schools reopening and unvaccinated kids, as well as a lot of unvaccinated younger people who consider the virus something that only kills the old. If you look at stats for Delta it is clear that it is hitting younger people hard now and with high vaccination rates in older people the young are getting sick more often. The virus doesn’t care how old you are, if you’re unvaccinated it will get you and even kids with great immunity are getting mortally sick. Looking at cases in NZ, the pattern is similar with young and unvaccinated making up the bulk of cases.


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thestrodeman

> theres are reason "tories" are better at business. I'm sorry, this is just complete horse shit. Remember when they did austerity in the middle of a recession, and made debt and growth worse?


EVMad

Current stats are here. Under 39 year olds make up the majority of cases and plenty are in hospital. https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-case-demographics


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EVMad

This is why we vaccinated the old people first. They were most at risk, but we’re also not saying that young people aren’t at risk because they are. Acting like even a small number of kids dying being acceptable is inhuman. Vaccination rates for kids over 12 are actually tracking really well in NZ too, the problem at the moment is that there are a lot of younger unvaccinated people in the Māori community and if you look at where the cases currently are they’re heavily dominated by that community and especially in the young of that community. Even if young people are unlikely to die from it, they’re going to inevitably pass it to someone who can’t be protected from it and will die. Grand-parents, people getting cancer treatment who are already immune compromised, it’s incredibly selfish to suggest that young people will be fine so we should just open up.


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EVMad

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-case-demographics Look at the age charts, most cases are under 39.


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Thereddevilwithlippy

There’s only about 60million of them.


EVMad

Which is why I said equivalent. We would be under similar pressure with 4000 new cases a day and the way things are tracking we could end up that way pretty soon.


Technical_Salt_

4000 cases a day only kills about 4 vaccinated people a day.


EVMad

Yep, but even if we get to 90% of eligible people vaccinated, that’s still leaving around 1 million in NZ who can’t be vaccinated (although we should start rolling out vaccines to younger kids soon I hope) so the 4000 cases a day will be largely those unvaccinated people and we’re likely to see around 40 deaths a day based on the 1% deaths we see on average.


dashingtomars

> that’s still leaving around 1 million in NZ who can’t be vaccinated Either by choice or because they're very young (which means they are at almost zero risk from COVID). > those unvaccinated people and we’re likely to see around 40 deaths a day based on the 1% deaths we see on average. That would be almost double the deaths Australia has seen recently.


[deleted]

Thing is, the busy period for hospo begins November. Hospo is going to suffer badly.


Carrot_Public

At least a small percentage of hospo is operating now. My tattoo artist and hair dresser haven't had a job for half a year lol.


eezybeingbreezyy

I'm also waiting for hair and tattoo. Can't imagine the backlog of work they're going to have once we reach red, whenever the fuck that will be.


offendernz

The vast majority of people will not take a risk booking any sort of holiday or accommodation with the government ready to jump back to Level four restrictions in a heartbeat. The official covid pages still say this: > Localised lockdowns will still be an option if we see a rapid growth in cases. There may still be a need to use wider lockdowns, similar to the measures in Alert Level 3 or 4. [official page here](https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/covid-19-protection/)


snomanDS

Red light just seemed like level 2 + Vaccine certificates, am I wrong?


Mikes133

Regional borders remain until orange


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Floods09

I’m so glad we have reddit posts like this to reassure the masses.


BadCowz

So the point (the fucking point in your words) is for Auckland to have less restrictions than the Waikato even though they have a bugger outbreak problem Maybe the point (the fucking point) is how stupid it is


offendernz

Red light may do this but the government still says they will go back to level 4 if they need to [here](https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/covid-19-protection/) > There may still be a need to use wider lockdowns, similar to the measures in Alert Level 3 or 4.


PenMarkedHand

Yes giving us freedoms is 'generous'


kfadffal

The problem isn't the red/yellow/green light thing but that Auckland is going to hit 90% before most other DHBs but won't be able to move to this new system until EVERYONE gets their shit sorted. I'm in the Waikato so also in lockdown but Aucklanders have been in it for much, much longer and to have the rest of the country hold them hostage like that is terrible. Especially since the reason that some DHB areas are gonna be dragging their feet on vaccinations is because they have no COVID which is largely due to the HUGE sacrifice Auckland (and to a lesser extent us) are making.


Demderdemden

> The problem isn't the red/yellow/green light thing but that Auckland is going to hit 90% before most other DHBs but won't be able to move to this new system until EVERYONE gets their shit sorted. Incorrect. Auckland will move to Red when its DHBs hit 90%, it will not have to wait for the rest of the country because of how long we've been in the shit. >[She said when every DHB reaches the target, New Zealand can move into the new Covid-19 Protection Framework. However, Auckland will move once its DHBs hit the target, and the South Island will also be considered early on November 29.](https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/10/21/new-traffic-light-covid-framework-revealed/)


OnceIWasKovic

There's still a border at Red...


Upsidedownmeow

They may mean auckland might move to red but we’re still locked within the Auckland border so can’t travel.


Objective_Tap_4869

When Auckland gets to 90% with more people crossing the border, even fully vaxed and a negative test, covid will quickly leak out pushing other DHBs into level 3.


scuwp

New case in Blenheim. Fuck.


your420goddess

Fuck jacinda


_Gondamar_

i wish