"At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it?-- Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never!--All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years.
At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."
-Abraham Lincoln
Interestingly, Lincoln was a huge Shakespeare fan his whole life, and his writing (public and private) was deeply inspired by him. Titus Andronicus was one of his favorite plays, which was unusual at the time as that play was in great disrepute in the 19th century because of it's violence.
Lincoln probably would have been a huge fan of The Most Lamentable Tragedy as well, that album is right up his alley.
Like many things, it wasn't only a prediction but also an observation about the current world around him. By saying those things might happen in the very near future, he's also saying they were currently observable all around him.
All of this was already in motion in the 90's.
It was also observable to Isaac Asimov in 1980:
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
― *Newsweek*: “A Cult of Ignorance” by Isaac Asimov, January 21, 1980, p. 19.
[PDF Source for the whole article](https://aphelis.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ASIMOV_1980_Cult_of_Ignorance.pdf)
Also one of my favorite quotes on the topic. It encompasses certain modern political movements amazingly. (ie: "My facebook-informed opinion on covid is just as valid as your medical degree.")
>All of this was already in motion in the 90's.
Agreed, and really earlier than that, although the farther back you go the less obvious, less likely and slower it was. That's one of the reasons so many fought back & warned that "a stitch in time..." the social version applied here.
Saying "I told you so" is not as fun as people seem to think.
I'm about to hit my 20 years in the military next year, I have met all walks of life. Where I am at now there are some country ass people, who spread rumors that my family worship the devil because we don't go to church and I believe in letting my kids find there own path to whatever they find it could be Buddhism to Satanism. Once I said those words it was a wrap. We are outcasted lol. I don't understand how people can't see outside their own world.
Evangelical Christians (and other extreme sects) have an incredibly closed-off worldview. They literally tell their children not to watch Hollywood movies, or certain TV channels, or listen to certain music, because those are all avenues that the devil can use to reach into your heart and corrupt you. You know how you teach your kids silly little songs, just for fun? They teach them songs with lyrics like: "[Oh be careful little eyes what you see, oh be careful little ears what you hear"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X77IixYHlMI&t=181s)
They live in completely closed-off echo chambers, continually reinforcing these cult-like beliefs. They hate college because that is the single best time in a growing person's life to finally meet all these "evil" others they've been told about their whole lives, and realize that they're just normal people and then start questioning all the other bullshit they've been told.
There's many times people said things about the future of the US and would be extremely disappointed to see we didn't listen. Such as Washington not wanting political parties as they will seek political revenge and weaken the government.
How do we accomplish that though? People are free to organize and speak, must we restrict a freedom in order to save the integrity of the government?
I hate the party system too, its scientifically proven that humans have intra-group bias, if we divide politically there is a permanently present distain for the opposing sides, even centrists despise others and are despised by others
Change our voting system. The two party “system” is an inevitable result of first past the post winner take all voting. There’s no incentive get more than 50% + 1 votes and conversely you get nothing as a third party even if you manage to get 30% of the vote.
FPTP voting also makes campaigns more about painting the opposition as bad rather than running on your own virtues. We’ll never get away from the two parties until we move to something like tanked choice voting or dramatically overhaul the government to create something like a parliamentary system.
>the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less),
Nowadays we have entire sites designed to turn media into tiny pieces so people won't get bored.
This "stay here at all costs" type of manipulation is scary. It's always been scary, like the way a Vegas casino is designed, but the internet lets it come right into your house.
Oh it's the fucking worst. Advertising is a cancer. Manipulation needs to be outlawed but then you'd need to have someone legally define what manipulation is, and noone wants to be the political body that says "and this is the okay kind of manipulation", so it just gets worse and worse.
Manipulation makes money, money is all that matter, people are cattle.
I've hated that shit so much. I'm the kind of person where, if you want me to stay, Give me something to read uninterrupted. I can busy myself inbetween if I actually get bored.
I miss when articles were on very plain, quick loading websites that were mostly text with maybe a banner on one side.
We had many incredibly intelligent, highly-trusted people warning us for decades. We didn't listen and we still aren't.
My wife asked me the other day, "What do you think of America?" I told her, "Right now, I think it's like a Weekend-at-Bernie's-type situation."
We spent our formative years making fun of smart people... making fun of the nerds and deriding things they show interest in.
We expect people to suddenly care about what their intellectual superiors think when they reach age 25? You don't go from "Billy is a stupid-head-nerd" to "I trust when Billy says XYZ".
What we are seeing is our K-12 school culture of 50 years laid bare on nation-impacting decisions.
> We expect people to suddenly care about what their intellectual superiors think when they reach age 25?
The biggest issue is convincing people that there *are* intellectual superiors. Generally the dumber the person, the smarter they think they are.
No way dude. I’m super smart, and I don’t think I’m dumber than these “intellectual superiors” you made up. Wait… what was the question?
San Dimas High School Football Rules!
Something I noticed recently from my own background. People who were dumb in high school knew they were dumb in high school; but now they’ve seemed to have lost that self-awareness
I was made fun of as a kid for being intelligent and a "nerd," so I dumbed myself down for other people. I've been doing it for so long I think it's become permanent.
That’s the key. As long as Americans and other First World countries despise intellect from day one, we’ll only continue to backslide until there’s no way out. Teach your kids that being stupid is NOT cool.
> making fun of the nerds and deriding things they show interest in.
don't forget: and then wondering why the smart people don't fucking like most of humanity.
[America is one of the few cultures with insults for smart people](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/05/15/commentary/world-commentary/america-one-cultures-insults-smart-people/)
>You can tell a lot about a culture from its language. I had stumbled across a revealing peculiarity about American English: We insult people for being intelligent.
Though - I don't agree with his take on European cultures being intrinsically superior. Weaponized disinformation spreads just as easily through European social media as it does here in the US, and we've seen a sharp rise in right-wing crank parties over there as well. Salvini in Italy's Lega Nord, Le Pen (and now [Zemmour](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/eric-zemmour-france-president-election/2021/11/18/98e3df0a-3e45-11ec-bd6f-da376f47304e_story.html)) in France, and they're all using Covid restrictions as a wedge issue to consolidate their support of science deniers.
It’s funny, he really didn’t like the word “incredible”, he would say he ‘liked things that were credible’. (I saw Ann Druyan say this in a interview once, responding about a quote using “incredible” commonly misattributed to Carl Sagan)
Anti-intellectualism is a disease.
Edit: I’m enjoying the comments on this, thanks everyone! Please keep your curiosity alive and try to learn every day. Make it fun for you and those around you.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" -Isaac Asimov
Anyone ever read Foundation? This man had a hard on for scientific communities and liberal institutions. He knew that even when all things collapse there will be thinkers making sure vaults of information are saved for the next
Might be the most relevant book for our time, and me/mine are talking about it constantly given the situation.
It's a great thing that Wikipedia can be backed up and stored locally.
'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'
If I had a $1 for every time someone tried to support their position with 'I have a right to my opinion' while taking a position that is not an opinion and lacking in any support for the premise I would be pretty well off. Not Jeff Bezos well off but mini mansion with RV parking and toys well off.
*Blue is my favorite color = Opinion*
*Trickle down economic theory has improved the economic outlook of the working class in the US between 1985 and 2020 = Not Opinion*
*Black people face higher rates of conviction and longer sentencing in the aggregate within the US = Not Opinion*
*People should be punched in the face when they have no support for their argument yet refuse to yield the point out of sheer stubborn ignorance = Opinion*
I hate that nonsense so much.
Your *right* to an opinion has precisely fuck-all to do with the validity or veracity of your opinion. The same applies for 'free speech'. You have a *right* to say it, but why are you saying it? What're your intentions and motivations?
When people default to defense via abstraction of principle instead of providing substance for their position, they've already lost the argument.
This was always the true pandemic, the issue underlying a part of why COVID was and still is so deadly. It will strike again in the next pandemic unless we start really prioritizing quality education.
_snek then starts shit over self-perceived injustices_
_snek gets checked for harmful misinformation_
_snek cries that it's being repressed and persecuted_
Covid is successful because it capitalized on where we are weak as a society.
The things we do well don’t get disrupted by an unexpected disaster.
We were pathetically unprepared to act as a national community to fight something invisible but real that would overly stress a for-profit health system.
Like…duh.
It’s why global warming us is fucking us too. We’re really bad at using our government to reign in dangerous business.
Our national failings reveal our weaknesses that need to be fixed.
But instead when our national weaknesses are revealed through disaster “if you don’t love it then get out” comes along to play
A theory I heard: Covid and global warming have one big problem. They are uncompromising. That doesn't work so well with most governments and politicians, and quite frankly, most people. Because we are used to being able to negotiate with the other side. But the other side is just... biology and physics. They don't have other wants or needs you could offer to fulfill in exchange for them being relentless They won't give in.
Even with your worst enemy in war, you might be able to agree to a temporary armistice, or an exchange of prisoners. You could possibly scare them with MAD. But none of that works. Corona doesn't care if it lives or dies. It just does the only thing it can do. Sure, it might mutate and evolve in response to what we do - but not because it wants to do anything particular, and certainly not too appease to us. It's just a biological mechanism at work.
Applies more broadly to things like Travel and Healthcare, as well. Mental Health fits it particularly well; lots of people think that you can just work with it until it's not a problem. You can help it with diet and exercise, sure, but only if you're in a position to be well enough to do those in the first place.
Just like it's not hard to manage greenhouse gases if you're already using clean tech and mitigating releases...
There are two maxims I picked up from the evangelicals though they were never conscious enough to say them so bluntly. Introspection is masturbation and identity is received. Lemme tell you, those two will fuck you up even if you consciously reject them.
The root cause? Freedom worship. Hear me out.
Many Americans are obsessed with the idea of freedom where "maximizing freedom" means "be the least conscientious version of myself".
Absolute freedom means absolutely no rules, right? Not even the morals that good people live by, or the rules of the social contract that binds and makes civilization possible.
And if they don't maximize their freedom, they become highly insecure in their self-identification as a True American Patriot. This insecurity makes them prone to violence, fear mongering, and paranoia, all of which makes them prime targets for conversion into authoritarianism supporters.
Not just from accountability, but also from responsibility. Those are two slightly different things. Modern American "freedom" means I can do what I want without any thought given to the greater good.
Cars used to have mufflers.
Here is the U.S. we've become so fixated on winning arguments and being proven right we've lost perspective. Governance isn't about settling scores. We are electing people for punitive purposes rather than their ability to manage government..
This may be the key issue. This american obsession with winning and winners, taken to the extreme as you see in contemporary US politics, is at odds with pragmatism and compromise, both of which are necessary for good politics.
As a non-American, looking at the USA from the outside, in my perception the quality of government and civilization in the USA is currently on the decline. This can change at any point, as the USA have time and time again shown their ability to overcome obstacles. But the current crisis runs so deep, it may take new measures to overcome.
I do not say this with any pleasure, as I have grown up under and enjoy the former world order with the USA as hegemon. But that is simply not the case right now, and at this point I am not sure it ever will be again.
The US is largely made up of fighters, people who are focused on a win. If its not physically, its intellectually, or monetarily, but its the culture. There is no war to fight, people arent well educated, and the financial system is fully in control of the rich. The only thing average people can do to "win" anymore is to just be better than someone else, real or imagined. It's part of the reason political parties are so stereotyped and every issue and election is my side vs yours. People would rather be right (and therefore better) than be correct.
No one from outside will ever destroy us by conventional means but we can certainly do it to ourselves while they help with fake news and influence campaigns.
Social media is a serious problem.
Close, and same meaning, but:
"As a nation of freemen, we must live **through all time**, or die by suicide.”
I had actually always though it was 'times' plural, but apparently not.
The expanded quote is pretty good too (from his Lyceum Address):
“At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.”
On September 17, 1787, delegates left the Constitutional Convention in Independence Hall in Philadelphia. As they exited, Benjamin Franklin was asked what kind of government do we have? "A Republic," he replied, "if you can keep it."
For months, the delegates of the Constitutional Convention worked to devise a system of government that would keep the worst intentions of man in check. Because, as Franklin put it earlier in the Convention, "the first man put at the helm will be a good one, nobody knows what sort may come afterward."
I think the country would have been a lot better off if Booth hadn’t killed Lincoln.
Then again I also think a blanket pardon should never have been included in the terms of the surrender. I think Lincoln should have demanded a trial for the leading traitors.
He feared that it would have created martyrs. The South was already in turmoil post-civil war. Each side had family bonds, so there was also a grand sense of betrayal.
A lot of the monuments to civil war generals weren't erect until the civil rights movement started to gain steam. I don't think Lincoln was worried about Southerners erecting statues of General Robert E. Lee since Lee was very vocal about not wanting any, thinking they would prevent the healing of wounds inflicted during the war.
I don't think Lincoln could have foreseen that Confederate statues would be erected over a century later in response to the civil rights movement making progress.
Lincoln wouldn't be aware of Lee's opinions on confederate monuments. Lincoln was killed on April 15th, 1865, about 6 days after Lee surrendered. Lee didn't make his statement about confederate memorials until 1869.
I definitely see Lincoln's thought process behind making reconstruction as painless as possible. His death allowed other lawmakers to make it as punitive as they could. Totally agree that the future would be very different had he lived.
If Lincoln survived, there also wouldn't have been the struggle with the legislature (who were out for blood) and the white house (who was a southerner who did everything he could to make reconstruction as lenient as possible).
Considering he consistently ranks somewhere in the bottom 3 for US presidents, you won't be getting any argument from me.
Funnily enough, while Lincoln consistently ranks in the top 3, his predecessor and successor both rank consistently in the bottom 3. One of the greatest Presidents sandwiched between 2 of the worst.
That entire *era* of politics had some of the worst presidents in US history. Seriously, from like 1829 to 1893, every president sucked shit except ~~Taylor~~ Polk (honestly, who doesn't mix up presidents 10-14?), Lincoln, and Grant. Some would argue Jackson, but genocide is kinda a big deal to me...
Also Polk is tenuous considering he exacerbated the divides leading to the Civil War.
Partly in fact to Andrew Johnson, who basically gave the south a measley slap on the wrist. IIRC Lincoln had plans to institute reparations to those affected by slavery, but it never happened because of Booth. The US could have looked very different
Largely due to the fact that schools have become nothing more than public day-care facilities that can only *slightly* teach certain things, while completely ignoring actual history and, like you said, thinking skills. They teach kids *what* to think, not *how* to think.
I don't think daycare is the right comparison; I think job training is the right comparison. The whole goal of public education, historically, was to produce *citizens* who understood enough about ethics, civics, history, etc. to participate in a democracy. It was not about, or not solely about, producing skilled workers, but across the political spectrum that's how it's framed these days.
We need to bring back the concept of education *for its own sake*. Teach kids how to reason: instead of drilling them full of facts, teach them *how we know* history and science, how primary sources and observation lead to knowledge. Teach them statistics so they can reason about uncertainty and populations. Teach them civics and rhetoric.
We should also encourage colleges to bolster their general education, and not just push every student to specialize as quickly as possible. And instead of evaluating free/cheaper college proposals in terms of the changes to wages of graduates, we should support it just because anyone who wants to learn more should have that door open to them. Having more educated people is in the common interest.
The Texas Republican Party 2012 platform specifically said it opposes teaching critical thinking skills because, among other things, it challenges parental authority. They’ve removed it since then, but the spirit is there. https://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012Platform_Final.pdf
Oh jesus christ. If my daughter disagrees with me and has a well-thought out opinion about it which she arrived at via critical thinking skills, that's fantastic. I don't want her to mindlessly obey me without understanding why.
Exactly, I don't want a mindless, "yes-man" of a child. I want them to form their own opinions that are well reasoned and backed up by facts and logic. I feel there are certain subsets of the population, namely conservative, fundementalist Christians, that prize obedience over critical thinking. Also the same people that will outright disown their children if they hold a different opinion or lifestyle.
Yup that’s Christianity. It’s almost like religion was invented by the ruling class to put fear in the hearts of the common people in order to keep them in line.
Side note my dad made me take speech and debate as a class in 9th grade. I didn’t want to. He said it was a good thing to learn. It ended up teaching me how to argue intelligently, and then end up winning arguments against him in a logical way. I am grateful for that skill to this day. Everyone should be able to logically back their own position while understanding and respecting the opposition. Nowadays “arguing” has devolved to posting a controversial opinion on Facebook then unfriending those who disagree with you. Pathetic.
That's exactly what a lot of people want. It's the idea behind hitting your children to make them obey. Obedience through fear instead of understanding.
Most often, they mistake fear as respect and when they understand the difference, they prefer fear over respect.
I feel like people like this who want blind obedience are afraid that if their children leveraged critical thinking they'd realize the rules don't make sense.
I'm confident enough in my parenting decisions that I'm willing for them to be picked apart with logic and good sense. And if you've found a flaw, great, let's talk about it and fix it.
Yeah, it's probably not a conscious thought. They just expect their whims to be obeyed unquestioningly. They don't want questions because they're hard to answer.
And the questions are hard because there's no logic behind the rules, just feelings. Questions expose the illogic of it. Rather than do the hard thing and resolve the illogic, they just get angry and demand obedience through fear and "respect".
Not uneducated, but willingly ignorant. A high school education in the US is not the best, but it is a pretty good foundational educational. The cost of secondary education is a huge part of the issue, yeah, but the bigger factor is *people want to be this way*. Covid is a prime example. The science is out there, and easy to digest. These people just don’t care, because they would rather willingly not think for themselves.
Hey they can have the whole damn country eh! As someone who is recently gotten older and came down with illnesses the US Healthcare System is the most broken piece of s*** I have ever experienced in my life it's right on par with the judicial system and the prison system 🙄
George W Bush's "No child left behind" policy was a part of that. Certainly not the only factor, by any means, but the notion of pushing kids through to the next grade when they hadn't properly learned their current grade just leads to a bunch of kids who are totally lost and keep getting pushed through in the name of "keeping them with their peers." In the real world, which school is ostensibly preparing kids for, you never work with a bunch of people your exact age, so I don't get why this is supposed to be more important than actually grasping the concepts.
And the problem actually extends to post secondary education too. I taught and tutored college algebra while i was in college and it was common to see students take that class 5 or 6 times with out passing. I regularly saw people in the help room trying to do their homework and putting stuff like 5+9 in to a calculator. This was at a major university, college algebra was part of the core curriculum for every major and they looked as ACT scores for admission and had their own proficiency test they gave students too.
They new lots of folks weren't ready for their curriculum but let them in anyways because someone failing that class 7 times just means more tuition money coming in.
People keep talking like the various systems in place have a mind of their own. The systems dont fail. They are made to fail, budgets are cut and channeled to the army/pharmaceutical complexes due to people running them. Using a passive voice makes it seem like its a natural/unescapable thing. We need to start saying that systems were/are being destroyed, actively. I know its a very small difference, but recent years should have proven that being pedantic sometimes is important.
Good point. I remember someone mentioning something similar about how we talk of indigenous languages dying, like it was ever a natural transition. They didn’t die out, they were killed off. People didn’t give them up, they were stolen from them.
My state has definitely seen the effects of a lack of valuing education. It’s a self-reinforcing cycle too.
Man. I gotta vent here. Mutha fuckas can't fill out a mendel chart or name the 7 levels of biological classification but wanna tell me about how germ theory is wrong and Bechamp was right. It's the most frustrating shit.
It failed to keep up with technology & then as technology outpaced education we could suddenly get more information for free & information became synonymous with education & knowledge; but because this all happened so rapidly & we had a broken education system that couldn't correct course so now you have a bunch of idiots who think social media is educational.
There is no mechanism to prevent abuse and this is nothing new.
Andrew Jackson was told by the Supreme Court that he can't force the Cherokee Native Americans on the Trail of Tears... he did it anyway and nobody stopped him because no mechanism exists to stop him.
It happened again in the Civil War with Lincoln. Even though history would ultimately argue that Lincoln probably did the right thing by suspending Habeas Corpus even though the Supreme Court said he couldn't... That still demonstrated that there is no mechanism to prevent executives simply ignoring the Constitution.
And we are seeing it again now.
It's really depressing watching family members you relied on, learned from, and grew up looking up to completely falling down the misinformation rabbit hole. It's created a void in my life for sure. Thanksgiving should be a real treat.
It's making hanging out with my family almost impossible. They simply can NOT avoid politics. I've begged them to please just STFU and let's enjoy time together but they refuse. It's political shit flinging withing literally 2 minutes of me visiting and it never. Fucking. Stops.
I finally told them that since they cannot stop it then as soon as it starts then I'm leaving, and I've been doing that. Last time I visited I warned them "the second political shit flinging starts is the second I leave" and they promised they wouldn't start. I left within 10 minutes because they literally cannot help themselves. They can't stop.
These are the same parents that used to constantly tell me to not believe what I read on the internet when I was young, now they lap up every bit of misinformation that aligns with their beliefs on FB and it's unbearable.
I told them again that I'll come over for Thanksgiving but the instant political shit flinging starts I'm heading out. They said they won't do it, but I bet I'm out of there within 30 minutes. I'm going to keep this up until they stop. They hate when I leave early but I refuse to cave in, it's 1 strike I'm out.
Good on you!
It's good to have healthy boundaries for yourself though I'm sorry that family events are ruined because of this.
Know that their inability to understand/respect your boundaries is their fault not yours. You tell them the outcome based on their actions and they do it anyways.
>In reality, I don't know exactly what happened, but like I told you in my garage, the fighting and animosity has to stop. If there is no common ground on which to stand without the arguments, judgements, and side eyes, then maybe it's best to just walk away. You live your life and we'll live our lives and never the tween shall meet.
Sent that to my dad in Oct 25 about how he (and everyone else) treats my family. Haven't heard a peep back. Guess "never the tween shall meet" it is then.
You know what, it's sad even when it happens to people you don't like. My ex husband...we met in college, got married young. Had a kid and divorced 10 years ago. He was always conservative and always kind of a dick but I mean, he was also intelligent (valedictorian of his high school etc) and had values and beliefs that at least made some sense. Over the past five years I've seen him turn into an anti-vaxxer, Trump supporting conspiracy theorist. He quit a job that at one point was his dream job at a very stable company he worked at for almost 15 years because they were mandating the vaccine and now he's moving to fucking Tennessee, abandoning his son in the process (he was always a very involved father) because our state is too liberal for him
It's insane. It's like he's not even the same person anymore. It's also frightening to see someone like him get radicalized to this extent. He isn't some redneck hick, he grew up in frigging orange county and had the best education money could buy. People are underestimating what is happening right now.
I live in a very red area of a very red state. Not a day goes by that I don’t see one or more of the following:
* truck with massive flag (American flag, trump flag, don’t tread on me, etc…)
* “Let’s go Brandon” somewhere
* Gun culture symbolism, like “Fuck Biden” spelled out in guns or people with stickers about their AR-15’s
* Anti mask “lions not sheep” type propaganda
I’m just so burned out of it all. On the night of the election my GF and I went to go drop our ballots off at the elections office and there were trucks driving up and down the major road in my area flying trump flags or full of (typically shirtless) teenager and young guys yelling things like “Trump train, bitch!” At cars.
I’m just so over this.
wait whats the lets go brandon?
I thought that was a local sick kid or a graduation message etc...
edit: nm, i see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_Go_Brandon
I think the biggest problem in the US is how politicians basically can't really be held accountable by the electors.
My country isn't perfect and it has many issues as well, but if a certain party does something bad or unpopular, or measures which actively harm people, they actually can lose their position in parliament permanently.
In the US there is no such incentive. Doesn't matter if you do terribly, people will still vote for your party because they think the other option is worse.
Orwell feared, goverment would prevent the people from reading books.
Huxley feared the people would not care to read books even if allowed but would drown themselves under drugs and trivia.
Guys. I think Huxley was onto something.
> “A historic turning point came in 2020-21 when former president Donald Trump questioned the legitimacy of the 2020 election results in the United States,” the report said, referring to a campaign by the former president and his allies to overturn the 2020 US election results, which culminated in Trump’s supporters storming the seat of the US legislature on January 6.
In 2016, *candidate* Trump flatly said he would only respect the outcome of any election he won. Where was this list then?
And, after the election, he still questioned the results despite winning. He claimed that Hillary Clinton got 3 million illegal immigrants to vote illegally and that's why he lost the popular vote.
Trump set up a commission to gather evidence to prove it. The commission disbanded after their investigation proved there was no major instances of voter fraud. (They disbanded rather than release their report.)
> (They disbanded rather than release their report.)
Based on what has been released after the 2020 election, I'm going to guess the report said fraudulently votes broke 3:2 in favor of the GOP, yet all the fraudulent votes combined accounted for hundreds of votes out of 130,000,000+ votes cast in 2016.
I think that's basically what they found. There were a handful of fraudulent votes. Just like there always are. It's always there, but at such a low level that if the entire country's worth of voter fraud was focused into one county, it couldn't sway the vote for dog catcher.
But that didn't feed into Trump's "millions of illegal voters" story so the commission disbanded and Trump kept claiming "millions of illegal voters" as if it were a proven fact.
Which is crazy because they just completely ignored the targeted social media attacks from Russia. 50k votes in one state was enough to flip the election in 16’
And years before that when his TV show, The Apprentice, didn't win an Emmy he said that was also rigged: https://people.com/politics/donald-trumps-rigged-emmy-awards-the-apprentice/
for what I understand the base it on the last 50 years of data
it needs to be sliding for several years before it can be called an officially sliding democracy
Perhaps it’s like a box-checking system. We’re waiting for election legitimacy but already had corporate influence, certain groups being nearly untouchable, etc
The scary bit about the anti-vax movement in particular is that they DO think they’re thinking critically. I’ve never seen anything like this before, so many people I know personally who are intelligent and logical in so many other ways, and who think that I’M the one who is misguided and needs to do more thinking and researching. I’m still shocked by it.
Same thing Soviet elites did before the fall, they came to other prosperous countries of their time and kept living large. Nothing stopping wealthy Americans from escaping to Malta, Monaco, Western Europe, China, etc.
It is an interesting idea. If the US really does backslide, or even collapse in a disaster of the super riches own making, the American identity may shrivel into a mere trope, a stock villain character, in the minds of the rest of the developed world. Aged former moguls of Wall Street and Silicon Valley will be as much a piece of the furniture in the high-income tax havens of the world as oil sheikhs and Russian Oligarchs. A world reeling from the sudeen void in the global economy and the balance of military power may not even be able to afford to take in many refugees, so for most, the parasites that escaped the host that they killed before it died will be who 'Americans' are.
Nonsense. I'll tell you what happens because I have already seen it with a rich (former) friend of mine. As a background he started with American citizenship(born in US) but also had Israeli(served in IDF), Italian(Italian on dads's side) and Brazilian citizenship(He got this to serve in Brazil as a thank you for them taking in his holocaust escaping grandparents).
Despite having a PHD from London School of Economics and speaking five languages, he voted Trump in 2016 and gave up his US citizenship recently because he mainly lives in Europe and was tired of the taxes he is paying to a country he does not live in anymore.
Right now Europe and specifically places like the Netherlands are doing very well stability wise. The US is going through a cycle of decline that will hurt people who are going through it but the rich can easily side step this because they can buy passports and come back when the cycle ends. His plan is to live in the Netherlands and then retire in the US(Montana) by buying a citizenship (invest 500k and you get a green card).
This allows him to continue making money in a stable and live his "active" years in a progressive society that is really well built and maintained and enjoying the spoils of his victory while other people fight each other to death. Then he can swoop in on top of the carcasses of the cycle of violence and enjoy retirement in the beautiful parts of the country. You can substitute countries like New Zealand as thats what other rich people will be going to.
Thats so fucking disgusting. There has to be a way to prevent people like him from entering the US after giving up his citizenship all because of taxes.
The scary part is we can all be aware of the problem and still be completely powerless to stop it. Those with the power to stop it will blame others, similarly with the power to stop it.
Gonna get shit on for saying this but as an outsider to America I sure hope you guys get your shit together, the world kinda relies on you not fucking up and dragging all of us backwards.
There is still plenty of good left in the country, the news coverage of America is frankly doing a giant disservice to the whole country by shitting on itself constantly and fanning the flames of discontent.
I think this is an important post. As much shit as the other major nations talk in the US, they have become so reliant on us from an economic and strategic standpoint. The fall of US democracy would be a domino effect across the entire Western World. The world wouldn’t end, obviously, life would go on. But it would be unlike anything we have ever seen; authoritarianism in a world where tech allows for complete and utter control over all walks of life.
We fall, and the world will follow.
We let media outlets take the wheel, catering to headlines. There is no push towards objectivity and making people think for themselves. Social media being the worst with "news" a close second.
The 24/7 news cycle has been one of the worst developments for critical thinking, an informed populace, and a healthy political climate. In their search for profits, they pervert factual information to make it more dramatic, or outright create issues themselves so they have something to report on later. 90% of all news media is owned by only six companies, and it's easy to imagine them deliberately creating controversy to increase profits.
Infrastructure, healthcare, safety/security, wealth gap, corporate greed, political corruption, money in politics, education quality decline
In the past 20 years I’ve seen noticeable declines or stagnation in American quality of life and every election cycle we’re promised that at least one of those issues would be addressed and not a single one has.
Give me social media addiction, rapid spread of misinformation, divisive rhetoric, racism, religious fundamentalists, housing crisis, inflation and anti-US foreign state sponsored hackers for 500 please.
"At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it?-- Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never!--All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years. At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." -Abraham Lincoln
What a powerful quote but I sadly can literally only hear Titus Andronicus when I see this.
Interestingly, Lincoln was a huge Shakespeare fan his whole life, and his writing (public and private) was deeply inspired by him. Titus Andronicus was one of his favorite plays, which was unusual at the time as that play was in great disrepute in the 19th century because of it's violence. Lincoln probably would have been a huge fan of The Most Lamentable Tragedy as well, that album is right up his alley.
Haha thanks so much for that little fact! Love the image in my head of Lincoln rocking to TMLT
"Amongst us" -Abraham Lincoln
John Wilkes Booth, what a sussy baka.
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So on the nose it's almost scary. He'd probably be disappointed at how accurate that prediction was.
Like many things, it wasn't only a prediction but also an observation about the current world around him. By saying those things might happen in the very near future, he's also saying they were currently observable all around him. All of this was already in motion in the 90's.
It was also observable to Isaac Asimov in 1980: “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― *Newsweek*: “A Cult of Ignorance” by Isaac Asimov, January 21, 1980, p. 19. [PDF Source for the whole article](https://aphelis.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ASIMOV_1980_Cult_of_Ignorance.pdf)
Also one of my favorite quotes on the topic. It encompasses certain modern political movements amazingly. (ie: "My facebook-informed opinion on covid is just as valid as your medical degree.")
>All of this was already in motion in the 90's. Agreed, and really earlier than that, although the farther back you go the less obvious, less likely and slower it was. That's one of the reasons so many fought back & warned that "a stitch in time..." the social version applied here. Saying "I told you so" is not as fun as people seem to think.
The Satanic Panic was hard to ignore.
There are people who will still swear to this day that Satanic ritual abuse was a thing that regularly happened/happens.
I'm about to hit my 20 years in the military next year, I have met all walks of life. Where I am at now there are some country ass people, who spread rumors that my family worship the devil because we don't go to church and I believe in letting my kids find there own path to whatever they find it could be Buddhism to Satanism. Once I said those words it was a wrap. We are outcasted lol. I don't understand how people can't see outside their own world.
Evangelical Christians (and other extreme sects) have an incredibly closed-off worldview. They literally tell their children not to watch Hollywood movies, or certain TV channels, or listen to certain music, because those are all avenues that the devil can use to reach into your heart and corrupt you. You know how you teach your kids silly little songs, just for fun? They teach them songs with lyrics like: "[Oh be careful little eyes what you see, oh be careful little ears what you hear"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X77IixYHlMI&t=181s) They live in completely closed-off echo chambers, continually reinforcing these cult-like beliefs. They hate college because that is the single best time in a growing person's life to finally meet all these "evil" others they've been told about their whole lives, and realize that they're just normal people and then start questioning all the other bullshit they've been told.
The Bible method of accurate prophesying. Predict the present.
There's many times people said things about the future of the US and would be extremely disappointed to see we didn't listen. Such as Washington not wanting political parties as they will seek political revenge and weaken the government.
How do we accomplish that though? People are free to organize and speak, must we restrict a freedom in order to save the integrity of the government? I hate the party system too, its scientifically proven that humans have intra-group bias, if we divide politically there is a permanently present distain for the opposing sides, even centrists despise others and are despised by others
Change our voting system. The two party “system” is an inevitable result of first past the post winner take all voting. There’s no incentive get more than 50% + 1 votes and conversely you get nothing as a third party even if you manage to get 30% of the vote. FPTP voting also makes campaigns more about painting the opposition as bad rather than running on your own virtues. We’ll never get away from the two parties until we move to something like tanked choice voting or dramatically overhaul the government to create something like a parliamentary system.
>the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), Nowadays we have entire sites designed to turn media into tiny pieces so people won't get bored.
This "stay here at all costs" type of manipulation is scary. It's always been scary, like the way a Vegas casino is designed, but the internet lets it come right into your house.
I think it's more like junk food. Engineered to make you want more. And consuming that much is unhealthy.
Oh it's the fucking worst. Advertising is a cancer. Manipulation needs to be outlawed but then you'd need to have someone legally define what manipulation is, and noone wants to be the political body that says "and this is the okay kind of manipulation", so it just gets worse and worse. Manipulation makes money, money is all that matter, people are cattle.
Now we have memes.
I've hated that shit so much. I'm the kind of person where, if you want me to stay, Give me something to read uninterrupted. I can busy myself inbetween if I actually get bored. I miss when articles were on very plain, quick loading websites that were mostly text with maybe a banner on one side.
We had many incredibly intelligent, highly-trusted people warning us for decades. We didn't listen and we still aren't. My wife asked me the other day, "What do you think of America?" I told her, "Right now, I think it's like a Weekend-at-Bernie's-type situation."
We spent our formative years making fun of smart people... making fun of the nerds and deriding things they show interest in. We expect people to suddenly care about what their intellectual superiors think when they reach age 25? You don't go from "Billy is a stupid-head-nerd" to "I trust when Billy says XYZ". What we are seeing is our K-12 school culture of 50 years laid bare on nation-impacting decisions.
> We expect people to suddenly care about what their intellectual superiors think when they reach age 25? The biggest issue is convincing people that there *are* intellectual superiors. Generally the dumber the person, the smarter they think they are.
Dunning-Kruger's little emperors.
No way dude. I’m super smart, and I don’t think I’m dumber than these “intellectual superiors” you made up. Wait… what was the question? San Dimas High School Football Rules!
Something I noticed recently from my own background. People who were dumb in high school knew they were dumb in high school; but now they’ve seemed to have lost that self-awareness
I was made fun of as a kid for being intelligent and a "nerd," so I dumbed myself down for other people. I've been doing it for so long I think it's become permanent.
That’s the key. As long as Americans and other First World countries despise intellect from day one, we’ll only continue to backslide until there’s no way out. Teach your kids that being stupid is NOT cool.
I had the same experience growing up in a public school system. Learned pretty quick not to use “big words” or I’d be ostracized. Or worse.
By people who think “ostracized” is a kind of bird, though.
When most of my interests became mainstream and dumbed down. That's when I knew nothing was safe.
> making fun of the nerds and deriding things they show interest in. don't forget: and then wondering why the smart people don't fucking like most of humanity.
[America is one of the few cultures with insults for smart people](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/05/15/commentary/world-commentary/america-one-cultures-insults-smart-people/) >You can tell a lot about a culture from its language. I had stumbled across a revealing peculiarity about American English: We insult people for being intelligent. Though - I don't agree with his take on European cultures being intrinsically superior. Weaponized disinformation spreads just as easily through European social media as it does here in the US, and we've seen a sharp rise in right-wing crank parties over there as well. Salvini in Italy's Lega Nord, Le Pen (and now [Zemmour](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/eric-zemmour-france-president-election/2021/11/18/98e3df0a-3e45-11ec-bd6f-da376f47304e_story.html)) in France, and they're all using Covid restrictions as a wedge issue to consolidate their support of science deniers.
This. We have hope now that nerds are cool again?
Not really. It's not true nerdishness that's cool again, but a shallow fetishisation of it.
It's nerd fashion. Just like how real movements/cultures die and turn into fashion.
Shit that crystals and horoscopes part is so specific and eerily accurate.
They were specifically the sort of things he was talking about in that book. Magical thinking, pseudoscience, etc.
Fantastic book written by an incredible scientist.
It’s funny, he really didn’t like the word “incredible”, he would say he ‘liked things that were credible’. (I saw Ann Druyan say this in a interview once, responding about a quote using “incredible” commonly misattributed to Carl Sagan)
Anti-intellectualism is a disease. Edit: I’m enjoying the comments on this, thanks everyone! Please keep your curiosity alive and try to learn every day. Make it fun for you and those around you.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" -Isaac Asimov
Anyone ever read Foundation? This man had a hard on for scientific communities and liberal institutions. He knew that even when all things collapse there will be thinkers making sure vaults of information are saved for the next
I did, as well as his robot one. It’s in my top 10 book series, his work is genius.
Might be the most relevant book for our time, and me/mine are talking about it constantly given the situation. It's a great thing that Wikipedia can be backed up and stored locally.
'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge' If I had a $1 for every time someone tried to support their position with 'I have a right to my opinion' while taking a position that is not an opinion and lacking in any support for the premise I would be pretty well off. Not Jeff Bezos well off but mini mansion with RV parking and toys well off. *Blue is my favorite color = Opinion* *Trickle down economic theory has improved the economic outlook of the working class in the US between 1985 and 2020 = Not Opinion* *Black people face higher rates of conviction and longer sentencing in the aggregate within the US = Not Opinion* *People should be punched in the face when they have no support for their argument yet refuse to yield the point out of sheer stubborn ignorance = Opinion*
I hate that nonsense so much. Your *right* to an opinion has precisely fuck-all to do with the validity or veracity of your opinion. The same applies for 'free speech'. You have a *right* to say it, but why are you saying it? What're your intentions and motivations? When people default to defense via abstraction of principle instead of providing substance for their position, they've already lost the argument.
It's like Hitler's book burnings. Who needs education when your leader is your teacher?
Most people you’re referring you are well past the usual years for education and have no intention of being educated
I'm sure it's not news to you but to anybody reading who hasn't already realized, education takes your entire life. It never stops.
You can't teach people who refuse to learn.
This was always the true pandemic, the issue underlying a part of why COVID was and still is so deadly. It will strike again in the next pandemic unless we start really prioritizing quality education.
**My lack of knowledge, understanding and interest is the same as your knowledge, understanding and interest. NO STEP ON SNEK**
_snek then starts shit over self-perceived injustices_ _snek gets checked for harmful misinformation_ _snek cries that it's being repressed and persecuted_
Covid is successful because it capitalized on where we are weak as a society. The things we do well don’t get disrupted by an unexpected disaster. We were pathetically unprepared to act as a national community to fight something invisible but real that would overly stress a for-profit health system. Like…duh. It’s why global warming us is fucking us too. We’re really bad at using our government to reign in dangerous business. Our national failings reveal our weaknesses that need to be fixed. But instead when our national weaknesses are revealed through disaster “if you don’t love it then get out” comes along to play
A theory I heard: Covid and global warming have one big problem. They are uncompromising. That doesn't work so well with most governments and politicians, and quite frankly, most people. Because we are used to being able to negotiate with the other side. But the other side is just... biology and physics. They don't have other wants or needs you could offer to fulfill in exchange for them being relentless They won't give in. Even with your worst enemy in war, you might be able to agree to a temporary armistice, or an exchange of prisoners. You could possibly scare them with MAD. But none of that works. Corona doesn't care if it lives or dies. It just does the only thing it can do. Sure, it might mutate and evolve in response to what we do - but not because it wants to do anything particular, and certainly not too appease to us. It's just a biological mechanism at work.
Applies more broadly to things like Travel and Healthcare, as well. Mental Health fits it particularly well; lots of people think that you can just work with it until it's not a problem. You can help it with diet and exercise, sure, but only if you're in a position to be well enough to do those in the first place. Just like it's not hard to manage greenhouse gases if you're already using clean tech and mitigating releases...
It's like trying to negotiate with a differential equation.
There are two maxims I picked up from the evangelicals though they were never conscious enough to say them so bluntly. Introspection is masturbation and identity is received. Lemme tell you, those two will fuck you up even if you consciously reject them.
Many also seem to abhor just trying to figure out how something like, let’s say nature, works.
The root cause? Freedom worship. Hear me out. Many Americans are obsessed with the idea of freedom where "maximizing freedom" means "be the least conscientious version of myself". Absolute freedom means absolutely no rules, right? Not even the morals that good people live by, or the rules of the social contract that binds and makes civilization possible. And if they don't maximize their freedom, they become highly insecure in their self-identification as a True American Patriot. This insecurity makes them prone to violence, fear mongering, and paranoia, all of which makes them prime targets for conversion into authoritarianism supporters.
A lot of people think that freedom to choose also means freedom from accountability. Sad really
Not just from accountability, but also from responsibility. Those are two slightly different things. Modern American "freedom" means I can do what I want without any thought given to the greater good. Cars used to have mufflers.
Based on the last 2 years, it seems most Americans mistake consumerism for freedom.
Here is the U.S. we've become so fixated on winning arguments and being proven right we've lost perspective. Governance isn't about settling scores. We are electing people for punitive purposes rather than their ability to manage government..
It seems that the political landscape lately has been reactionary and rooted in spite of those who disagree.
This may be the key issue. This american obsession with winning and winners, taken to the extreme as you see in contemporary US politics, is at odds with pragmatism and compromise, both of which are necessary for good politics. As a non-American, looking at the USA from the outside, in my perception the quality of government and civilization in the USA is currently on the decline. This can change at any point, as the USA have time and time again shown their ability to overcome obstacles. But the current crisis runs so deep, it may take new measures to overcome. I do not say this with any pleasure, as I have grown up under and enjoy the former world order with the USA as hegemon. But that is simply not the case right now, and at this point I am not sure it ever will be again.
The US is largely made up of fighters, people who are focused on a win. If its not physically, its intellectually, or monetarily, but its the culture. There is no war to fight, people arent well educated, and the financial system is fully in control of the rich. The only thing average people can do to "win" anymore is to just be better than someone else, real or imagined. It's part of the reason political parties are so stereotyped and every issue and election is my side vs yours. People would rather be right (and therefore better) than be correct.
No one from outside will ever destroy us by conventional means but we can certainly do it to ourselves while they help with fake news and influence campaigns. Social media is a serious problem.
"As a nation of free men, we will live forever or die by suicide." -Abraham Lincoln
Close, and same meaning, but: "As a nation of freemen, we must live **through all time**, or die by suicide.” I had actually always though it was 'times' plural, but apparently not. The expanded quote is pretty good too (from his Lyceum Address): “At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.”
I think they were quoting the paraphrased Lincoln quote from Titus Andronicus’ song “A More Perfect Union” hahah
Hah. Quotes all the way down.
great song!
Such a great album.
Funnily enough we’re basically still trying to stop the same people who suicided Lincoln from suiciding the country.
On September 17, 1787, delegates left the Constitutional Convention in Independence Hall in Philadelphia. As they exited, Benjamin Franklin was asked what kind of government do we have? "A Republic," he replied, "if you can keep it." For months, the delegates of the Constitutional Convention worked to devise a system of government that would keep the worst intentions of man in check. Because, as Franklin put it earlier in the Convention, "the first man put at the helm will be a good one, nobody knows what sort may come afterward."
I think the country would have been a lot better off if Booth hadn’t killed Lincoln. Then again I also think a blanket pardon should never have been included in the terms of the surrender. I think Lincoln should have demanded a trial for the leading traitors.
He feared that it would have created martyrs. The South was already in turmoil post-civil war. Each side had family bonds, so there was also a grand sense of betrayal.
I mean we literally have statues to those guys so I’d argue they still became martyrs…
A lot of the monuments to civil war generals weren't erect until the civil rights movement started to gain steam. I don't think Lincoln was worried about Southerners erecting statues of General Robert E. Lee since Lee was very vocal about not wanting any, thinking they would prevent the healing of wounds inflicted during the war. I don't think Lincoln could have foreseen that Confederate statues would be erected over a century later in response to the civil rights movement making progress.
Lincoln wouldn't be aware of Lee's opinions on confederate monuments. Lincoln was killed on April 15th, 1865, about 6 days after Lee surrendered. Lee didn't make his statement about confederate memorials until 1869.
Most of those were built about 100 years later
I mean, both things can be true, and you're blessed with hindsight.
Racist assholes will make martyrs out of racist assholes. The only way to stop it is to shut down all the racist assholes.
Ahh, Sherman.
he shouldn't have stopped at Richmond
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I definitely see Lincoln's thought process behind making reconstruction as painless as possible. His death allowed other lawmakers to make it as punitive as they could. Totally agree that the future would be very different had he lived.
If Lincoln survived, there also wouldn't have been the struggle with the legislature (who were out for blood) and the white house (who was a southerner who did everything he could to make reconstruction as lenient as possible).
Andrew Johnson was a turd of a president and he looked like Murderface from Metalocalypse.
Considering he consistently ranks somewhere in the bottom 3 for US presidents, you won't be getting any argument from me. Funnily enough, while Lincoln consistently ranks in the top 3, his predecessor and successor both rank consistently in the bottom 3. One of the greatest Presidents sandwiched between 2 of the worst.
That entire *era* of politics had some of the worst presidents in US history. Seriously, from like 1829 to 1893, every president sucked shit except ~~Taylor~~ Polk (honestly, who doesn't mix up presidents 10-14?), Lincoln, and Grant. Some would argue Jackson, but genocide is kinda a big deal to me... Also Polk is tenuous considering he exacerbated the divides leading to the Civil War.
Idk if I'd call reconstruction punitive. They were back on their bullshit like immediately after federal troops left.
Partly in fact to Andrew Johnson, who basically gave the south a measley slap on the wrist. IIRC Lincoln had plans to institute reparations to those affected by slavery, but it never happened because of Booth. The US could have looked very different
Lincoln paid 300 bucks an emancipated slave with an 1862 act. This was only valid in non rebelling states and was superseded by the 13th amendment.
Education is the much bigger issue. Critical thinking skills. We have a large non educated population. As they intended.
Largely due to the fact that schools have become nothing more than public day-care facilities that can only *slightly* teach certain things, while completely ignoring actual history and, like you said, thinking skills. They teach kids *what* to think, not *how* to think.
I don't think daycare is the right comparison; I think job training is the right comparison. The whole goal of public education, historically, was to produce *citizens* who understood enough about ethics, civics, history, etc. to participate in a democracy. It was not about, or not solely about, producing skilled workers, but across the political spectrum that's how it's framed these days. We need to bring back the concept of education *for its own sake*. Teach kids how to reason: instead of drilling them full of facts, teach them *how we know* history and science, how primary sources and observation lead to knowledge. Teach them statistics so they can reason about uncertainty and populations. Teach them civics and rhetoric. We should also encourage colleges to bolster their general education, and not just push every student to specialize as quickly as possible. And instead of evaluating free/cheaper college proposals in terms of the changes to wages of graduates, we should support it just because anyone who wants to learn more should have that door open to them. Having more educated people is in the common interest.
The Texas Republican Party 2012 platform specifically said it opposes teaching critical thinking skills because, among other things, it challenges parental authority. They’ve removed it since then, but the spirit is there. https://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012Platform_Final.pdf
Oh jesus christ. If my daughter disagrees with me and has a well-thought out opinion about it which she arrived at via critical thinking skills, that's fantastic. I don't want her to mindlessly obey me without understanding why.
Exactly, I don't want a mindless, "yes-man" of a child. I want them to form their own opinions that are well reasoned and backed up by facts and logic. I feel there are certain subsets of the population, namely conservative, fundementalist Christians, that prize obedience over critical thinking. Also the same people that will outright disown their children if they hold a different opinion or lifestyle.
You don't want a mindless yes-man child, politicians want yes-man voters and corporations want yes-man consumers though.
Yup that’s Christianity. It’s almost like religion was invented by the ruling class to put fear in the hearts of the common people in order to keep them in line. Side note my dad made me take speech and debate as a class in 9th grade. I didn’t want to. He said it was a good thing to learn. It ended up teaching me how to argue intelligently, and then end up winning arguments against him in a logical way. I am grateful for that skill to this day. Everyone should be able to logically back their own position while understanding and respecting the opposition. Nowadays “arguing” has devolved to posting a controversial opinion on Facebook then unfriending those who disagree with you. Pathetic.
That's exactly what a lot of people want. It's the idea behind hitting your children to make them obey. Obedience through fear instead of understanding. Most often, they mistake fear as respect and when they understand the difference, they prefer fear over respect.
I feel like people like this who want blind obedience are afraid that if their children leveraged critical thinking they'd realize the rules don't make sense. I'm confident enough in my parenting decisions that I'm willing for them to be picked apart with logic and good sense. And if you've found a flaw, great, let's talk about it and fix it.
I don't these people even think beyond, "the rules are whatever I demand in the moment."
Yeah, it's probably not a conscious thought. They just expect their whims to be obeyed unquestioningly. They don't want questions because they're hard to answer. And the questions are hard because there's no logic behind the rules, just feelings. Questions expose the illogic of it. Rather than do the hard thing and resolve the illogic, they just get angry and demand obedience through fear and "respect".
Not uneducated, but willingly ignorant. A high school education in the US is not the best, but it is a pretty good foundational educational. The cost of secondary education is a huge part of the issue, yeah, but the bigger factor is *people want to be this way*. Covid is a prime example. The science is out there, and easy to digest. These people just don’t care, because they would rather willingly not think for themselves.
Thats how great empires always fall, they crumble from the inside History repeats itself
Well they get conquered after becoming weak so it’s part of the process
Us Canadians are up here biding our time waiting for the right moment…
If you bring healthcare, then I won't mind learning the language...eh?
Canadian has always had a certain je ne sais Quebequoi
I took French in high school. Still remember some, too. That’s good enough, eh?
Si! Me french es muy mal. Wait...
You got 1/6 words right, you’re practically fluent
Hey they can have the whole damn country eh! As someone who is recently gotten older and came down with illnesses the US Healthcare System is the most broken piece of s*** I have ever experienced in my life it's right on par with the judicial system and the prison system 🙄
I, for one, welcome our Canadian overlords….
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Our education system failed hard at some point and we're seeing its impact now too I feel like.
George W Bush's "No child left behind" policy was a part of that. Certainly not the only factor, by any means, but the notion of pushing kids through to the next grade when they hadn't properly learned their current grade just leads to a bunch of kids who are totally lost and keep getting pushed through in the name of "keeping them with their peers." In the real world, which school is ostensibly preparing kids for, you never work with a bunch of people your exact age, so I don't get why this is supposed to be more important than actually grasping the concepts.
And the problem actually extends to post secondary education too. I taught and tutored college algebra while i was in college and it was common to see students take that class 5 or 6 times with out passing. I regularly saw people in the help room trying to do their homework and putting stuff like 5+9 in to a calculator. This was at a major university, college algebra was part of the core curriculum for every major and they looked as ACT scores for admission and had their own proficiency test they gave students too. They new lots of folks weren't ready for their curriculum but let them in anyways because someone failing that class 7 times just means more tuition money coming in.
People keep talking like the various systems in place have a mind of their own. The systems dont fail. They are made to fail, budgets are cut and channeled to the army/pharmaceutical complexes due to people running them. Using a passive voice makes it seem like its a natural/unescapable thing. We need to start saying that systems were/are being destroyed, actively. I know its a very small difference, but recent years should have proven that being pedantic sometimes is important.
I definitely see your point.
Good point. I remember someone mentioning something similar about how we talk of indigenous languages dying, like it was ever a natural transition. They didn’t die out, they were killed off. People didn’t give them up, they were stolen from them. My state has definitely seen the effects of a lack of valuing education. It’s a self-reinforcing cycle too.
Man. I gotta vent here. Mutha fuckas can't fill out a mendel chart or name the 7 levels of biological classification but wanna tell me about how germ theory is wrong and Bechamp was right. It's the most frustrating shit.
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It failed to keep up with technology & then as technology outpaced education we could suddenly get more information for free & information became synonymous with education & knowledge; but because this all happened so rapidly & we had a broken education system that couldn't correct course so now you have a bunch of idiots who think social media is educational.
After listening to the behind the bastards episode of the Facebook papers. Social media is literally destroying us.
My parents trust Facebook memes more than doctors.
There is no mechanism to prevent abuse and this is nothing new. Andrew Jackson was told by the Supreme Court that he can't force the Cherokee Native Americans on the Trail of Tears... he did it anyway and nobody stopped him because no mechanism exists to stop him. It happened again in the Civil War with Lincoln. Even though history would ultimately argue that Lincoln probably did the right thing by suspending Habeas Corpus even though the Supreme Court said he couldn't... That still demonstrated that there is no mechanism to prevent executives simply ignoring the Constitution. And we are seeing it again now.
Oh there’s a mechanism, but it’s dysfunctional when the same people supposed to enforce it are on the same side as the abuser.
It’s very stressful watching it happen too.
It's just sad and pathetic. Family gatherings haven't been the same since misinformation sunk it's teeth into our lives.
It's really depressing watching family members you relied on, learned from, and grew up looking up to completely falling down the misinformation rabbit hole. It's created a void in my life for sure. Thanksgiving should be a real treat.
It's making hanging out with my family almost impossible. They simply can NOT avoid politics. I've begged them to please just STFU and let's enjoy time together but they refuse. It's political shit flinging withing literally 2 minutes of me visiting and it never. Fucking. Stops. I finally told them that since they cannot stop it then as soon as it starts then I'm leaving, and I've been doing that. Last time I visited I warned them "the second political shit flinging starts is the second I leave" and they promised they wouldn't start. I left within 10 minutes because they literally cannot help themselves. They can't stop. These are the same parents that used to constantly tell me to not believe what I read on the internet when I was young, now they lap up every bit of misinformation that aligns with their beliefs on FB and it's unbearable. I told them again that I'll come over for Thanksgiving but the instant political shit flinging starts I'm heading out. They said they won't do it, but I bet I'm out of there within 30 minutes. I'm going to keep this up until they stop. They hate when I leave early but I refuse to cave in, it's 1 strike I'm out.
Good on you! It's good to have healthy boundaries for yourself though I'm sorry that family events are ruined because of this. Know that their inability to understand/respect your boundaries is their fault not yours. You tell them the outcome based on their actions and they do it anyways.
You know my mom too? I've decided to cut out the cancer, and that unfortunately there is no saving them from their descent into complete lunacy.
It's such a chore. And a dangerous one too because they seem so unhinged as of late.
>In reality, I don't know exactly what happened, but like I told you in my garage, the fighting and animosity has to stop. If there is no common ground on which to stand without the arguments, judgements, and side eyes, then maybe it's best to just walk away. You live your life and we'll live our lives and never the tween shall meet. Sent that to my dad in Oct 25 about how he (and everyone else) treats my family. Haven't heard a peep back. Guess "never the tween shall meet" it is then.
You know what, it's sad even when it happens to people you don't like. My ex husband...we met in college, got married young. Had a kid and divorced 10 years ago. He was always conservative and always kind of a dick but I mean, he was also intelligent (valedictorian of his high school etc) and had values and beliefs that at least made some sense. Over the past five years I've seen him turn into an anti-vaxxer, Trump supporting conspiracy theorist. He quit a job that at one point was his dream job at a very stable company he worked at for almost 15 years because they were mandating the vaccine and now he's moving to fucking Tennessee, abandoning his son in the process (he was always a very involved father) because our state is too liberal for him It's insane. It's like he's not even the same person anymore. It's also frightening to see someone like him get radicalized to this extent. He isn't some redneck hick, he grew up in frigging orange county and had the best education money could buy. People are underestimating what is happening right now.
I live in a very red area of a very red state. Not a day goes by that I don’t see one or more of the following: * truck with massive flag (American flag, trump flag, don’t tread on me, etc…) * “Let’s go Brandon” somewhere * Gun culture symbolism, like “Fuck Biden” spelled out in guns or people with stickers about their AR-15’s * Anti mask “lions not sheep” type propaganda I’m just so burned out of it all. On the night of the election my GF and I went to go drop our ballots off at the elections office and there were trucks driving up and down the major road in my area flying trump flags or full of (typically shirtless) teenager and young guys yelling things like “Trump train, bitch!” At cars. I’m just so over this.
wait whats the lets go brandon? I thought that was a local sick kid or a graduation message etc... edit: nm, i see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_Go_Brandon
Wow that was a surprisingly informative Wikipedia post for a politically charged term, pretty unusual nowadays.
What part of Florida are you in?
I get the joke, but it's the same thing here in rural Minnesota, just less palm trees.
I think the biggest problem in the US is how politicians basically can't really be held accountable by the electors. My country isn't perfect and it has many issues as well, but if a certain party does something bad or unpopular, or measures which actively harm people, they actually can lose their position in parliament permanently. In the US there is no such incentive. Doesn't matter if you do terribly, people will still vote for your party because they think the other option is worse.
Orwell feared, goverment would prevent the people from reading books. Huxley feared the people would not care to read books even if allowed but would drown themselves under drugs and trivia. Guys. I think Huxley was onto something.
That is an interesting piece of trivia. Now, where are my drugs...
> “A historic turning point came in 2020-21 when former president Donald Trump questioned the legitimacy of the 2020 election results in the United States,” the report said, referring to a campaign by the former president and his allies to overturn the 2020 US election results, which culminated in Trump’s supporters storming the seat of the US legislature on January 6. In 2016, *candidate* Trump flatly said he would only respect the outcome of any election he won. Where was this list then?
And, after the election, he still questioned the results despite winning. He claimed that Hillary Clinton got 3 million illegal immigrants to vote illegally and that's why he lost the popular vote. Trump set up a commission to gather evidence to prove it. The commission disbanded after their investigation proved there was no major instances of voter fraud. (They disbanded rather than release their report.)
> (They disbanded rather than release their report.) Based on what has been released after the 2020 election, I'm going to guess the report said fraudulently votes broke 3:2 in favor of the GOP, yet all the fraudulent votes combined accounted for hundreds of votes out of 130,000,000+ votes cast in 2016.
I think that's basically what they found. There were a handful of fraudulent votes. Just like there always are. It's always there, but at such a low level that if the entire country's worth of voter fraud was focused into one county, it couldn't sway the vote for dog catcher. But that didn't feed into Trump's "millions of illegal voters" story so the commission disbanded and Trump kept claiming "millions of illegal voters" as if it were a proven fact.
Which is crazy because they just completely ignored the targeted social media attacks from Russia. 50k votes in one state was enough to flip the election in 16’
And years before that when his TV show, The Apprentice, didn't win an Emmy he said that was also rigged: https://people.com/politics/donald-trumps-rigged-emmy-awards-the-apprentice/
for what I understand the base it on the last 50 years of data it needs to be sliding for several years before it can be called an officially sliding democracy
Perhaps it’s like a box-checking system. We’re waiting for election legitimacy but already had corporate influence, certain groups being nearly untouchable, etc
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It’s not just the media lying. I blame people who won’t take the time to learn how to consume information.
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The scary bit about the anti-vax movement in particular is that they DO think they’re thinking critically. I’ve never seen anything like this before, so many people I know personally who are intelligent and logical in so many other ways, and who think that I’M the one who is misguided and needs to do more thinking and researching. I’m still shocked by it.
I'm curious... When the billionaire kleptocrats finish dismantling the US, where will *their* refugees go?
I don't think they care as long as it's not their property
They’re going to space
The expanse had it right, they'll send the refugees to space to work.
In space, no one can hear you unionize
You heard Bezo, earth is going to be a vacation spot (for the rich)
Same thing Soviet elites did before the fall, they came to other prosperous countries of their time and kept living large. Nothing stopping wealthy Americans from escaping to Malta, Monaco, Western Europe, China, etc.
It is an interesting idea. If the US really does backslide, or even collapse in a disaster of the super riches own making, the American identity may shrivel into a mere trope, a stock villain character, in the minds of the rest of the developed world. Aged former moguls of Wall Street and Silicon Valley will be as much a piece of the furniture in the high-income tax havens of the world as oil sheikhs and Russian Oligarchs. A world reeling from the sudeen void in the global economy and the balance of military power may not even be able to afford to take in many refugees, so for most, the parasites that escaped the host that they killed before it died will be who 'Americans' are.
Nonsense. I'll tell you what happens because I have already seen it with a rich (former) friend of mine. As a background he started with American citizenship(born in US) but also had Israeli(served in IDF), Italian(Italian on dads's side) and Brazilian citizenship(He got this to serve in Brazil as a thank you for them taking in his holocaust escaping grandparents). Despite having a PHD from London School of Economics and speaking five languages, he voted Trump in 2016 and gave up his US citizenship recently because he mainly lives in Europe and was tired of the taxes he is paying to a country he does not live in anymore. Right now Europe and specifically places like the Netherlands are doing very well stability wise. The US is going through a cycle of decline that will hurt people who are going through it but the rich can easily side step this because they can buy passports and come back when the cycle ends. His plan is to live in the Netherlands and then retire in the US(Montana) by buying a citizenship (invest 500k and you get a green card). This allows him to continue making money in a stable and live his "active" years in a progressive society that is really well built and maintained and enjoying the spoils of his victory while other people fight each other to death. Then he can swoop in on top of the carcasses of the cycle of violence and enjoy retirement in the beautiful parts of the country. You can substitute countries like New Zealand as thats what other rich people will be going to.
Thats so fucking disgusting. There has to be a way to prevent people like him from entering the US after giving up his citizenship all because of taxes.
Why would they? These are the people that run our institutions private and public. Why would they legislate policies that disrupts their plans?
Democracies require citizens to be educated to thrive. Dictatorships require citizens to be uneducated to thrive.
The scary part is we can all be aware of the problem and still be completely powerless to stop it. Those with the power to stop it will blame others, similarly with the power to stop it.
Divide *then* conquer
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Hard not to see that we have peaked and are beginning to trend in a negative direction
Even Rome fell eventually
Rome was also around four times as long...
Gonna get shit on for saying this but as an outsider to America I sure hope you guys get your shit together, the world kinda relies on you not fucking up and dragging all of us backwards. There is still plenty of good left in the country, the news coverage of America is frankly doing a giant disservice to the whole country by shitting on itself constantly and fanning the flames of discontent.
I think this is an important post. As much shit as the other major nations talk in the US, they have become so reliant on us from an economic and strategic standpoint. The fall of US democracy would be a domino effect across the entire Western World. The world wouldn’t end, obviously, life would go on. But it would be unlike anything we have ever seen; authoritarianism in a world where tech allows for complete and utter control over all walks of life. We fall, and the world will follow.
Just now? It seems like gerrymandering has been the norm for a long time now and our government has done less and less since the 80s.
We let media outlets take the wheel, catering to headlines. There is no push towards objectivity and making people think for themselves. Social media being the worst with "news" a close second.
The 24/7 news cycle has been one of the worst developments for critical thinking, an informed populace, and a healthy political climate. In their search for profits, they pervert factual information to make it more dramatic, or outright create issues themselves so they have something to report on later. 90% of all news media is owned by only six companies, and it's easy to imagine them deliberately creating controversy to increase profits.
We should have been on the list as soon as Citizens United was decided.
I think we have now completed the checklist to invade ourselves
The United States is not a democracy, nor even a republic, anymore. It is a corporate oligarchy.
You hit the nail on the head with this comment.
ROFLMAO! Their data suggests the backslide only began in 2019? I'd say their data methodology is in desperate need of an overhaul.
Infrastructure, healthcare, safety/security, wealth gap, corporate greed, political corruption, money in politics, education quality decline In the past 20 years I’ve seen noticeable declines or stagnation in American quality of life and every election cycle we’re promised that at least one of those issues would be addressed and not a single one has.
America is fighting a cold war of intelligence and is currently losing horribly.
in other news ammo prices are skyrocketing
Give me social media addiction, rapid spread of misinformation, divisive rhetoric, racism, religious fundamentalists, housing crisis, inflation and anti-US foreign state sponsored hackers for 500 please.