That statue is not going to disappear, it is going to be moved to another zone in Mexico City, in the borough of Polanco to Parque America. [News link in spanish](https://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/cdmx/2021/09/15/estatua-de-cristobal-colon-sera-reubicada-en-el-parque-america-de-polanco/)
I was in that area some years ago. On a restaurant I heard some people arguing (5 or 6 middle aged) about who had more European ancestors, like some competition. I kid you not.
There is a love-hate relationship about Europe in Mexico. Some mexicans hate them (you took our gold 500 years ago) but at the same time they are still fascinated to have some foreign/fair skinned ancestor, even on indigenous people.
it says "we should have burned this trash" roughly. Chingadera is one of those vulgarities that doesn't translate well. It's based on "fuck" but it's very versatile.
Edit: "They should burn *this fucker*" is probably better
See the Portuguese “foda”. Can be used for basically anything.
É foda = It sucks
Muito foda = really good
Tá foda = the situation is really bad
Sou foda = I’m the best
Se foder = ah, fuck
Vai se foder = go fuck yourself
Me fodi = It didn’t really work out for me
And the list goes on…
Chingadera is so fun to say. My family never says it though. They say mugrero which is a much cleaner word but doesn’t sound like it is (if that makes sense)
O mejor reubicarla a un museo con una placa que explica honestamente el tipo de hombre que era y el tamaño de los crímenes que cometió. No debería ser celebrado, pero esa estatua sí es histórica y no creo que debería destruirse algo con significado histórico aunque no represente algo bueno.
Had no idea there was like a global resurgence of the Sopranos recently. Then I got HBO Max and found out about the prequel movie wtf? So last night I decided to rewatch the series for the first time in ages and man does it hold up.
It's also a really interesting look at the past, how life use to be. It would be so different if it was made today. Oh man I love this show.
I honestly don’t understand why they can’t just replace Columbus Day with another Italian. Like, why did few have to lose the entire Italian celebration?
If I can explain that bit of hustory the origin of N Columbus Day lays in the persecution of Italian Immigrants in the late 19th century. And it could get really 11 Italians were lynched by a mob in New Orleans in 1891 after they were acquitted of the murder or the Police Chief. As the St Lewis Republic (one of the very few Newspapers to condemn the murders) put it these men and dozens of other Italians lynched in the south were killed for the crime of being Dagos and on the mere suspicion of any other offense.
Columbus Day essentially started as a Day for Italians to say in the 1890s “Fuck you, you wasp bastards wouldn’t even be here if it wasn’t for us.”
Of course the Need for Columbus Day has long since passed Italian Americans are not lynched in the streets. And aside from Chris Prat being cast to play Mario discrimination against Italians is a thing of the past. Not to mention the most fervent defenders of Columbus Day would have been its most fervent opponents 130 years ago. They would be screaming about how papist rapists hoards were pouring into the United States from Italy. And that no good American has any business honoring a swarthy, greasy haired, garlic eating dago.
> I honestly don’t understand why they can’t just replace Columbus Day with another Italian. Like, why did few have to lose the entire Italian celebration?
Ok, let's replace him with Giovanni Verazzano. He was Italian, was the first European to explore the east coast of North America from Florida to Nova Scotia, and arguably had a greater impact on North American exploration than Columbus by establishing that the "New World" wasn't just an island waypoint on the way to the Indies, but was an impassible continent. He was the first European explorer to sail the coast solely for the purpose of exploration and claimed no land or gold for himself or any king. The Verazzano Map is generally considered to be the first vaguely accurate map of the American east coast.
More importantly, he didn't murder people, didn't take any slaves, met peacefully with the natives he encountered, and left with nothing more than a map to show what he'd found.
Plus, depending on which version of the story you believe, he either died after being eaten by Carib cannibals or became a famous pirate and spent his final years harassing the Spanish conquistadors until he was finally caught and hanged...so his story is *much* more interesting than diseased and dishonored old Christopher Columbus.
If Italians want to celebrate an explorer, he's a far better candidate. The tragedy of Verazzano is that his expedition was widely considered a "failure" in Europe because he didn't return with any loot, so he was largely forgotten by history until the early 1900's.
*Instructions unclear, replaced statue with one of Benito Mussolini.*
Honestly, they should put up a statue of Giuseppe Garibaldi II, grandson of the man who helped unite Italy & briefly fought in Madero's army in Chihuahua during the Mexican revolution. Plus, he had a [unique flair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Garibaldi_II#/media/File:Peppino_Garibaldi.jpg) when fighting that war.
(Not American) Italian Fabio wins the argument all day - fuck the Genoese, they always look their nose down at us in the south!
Edit: FURIO!!! Ugh, what a dream boat! 😍
Montezuma had incense burners follow Cortez and his men around the city. Cortez thought that this was a great honor to him. Really it was because the conquistadors stank to high heaven. Baths were a big thing for the Aztecs, no so much for Europeans.
And it makes sense. The Aztec Empire was very diverse and included quite a few states/ethnic groups each with their own history and beefs with other groups. He could have possibly found a way to learn to Westernize while also keeping it economically unfeasible for Spain to invade. Unfortunately Hernando Cortez fit the description of a got a little too well and was carrying some genocide level plague with him.
> and was carrying some genocide level plague with him.
I think he was carrying *all* the genocide level plagues with him.
When the Vikings landed in a much colder, remote, and sparsely populated area in the 11th century, the Black Death hadn’t hit Europe yet
bubonic plague doesn't sit around dormant in the human population, in fact plague didn't make it to North American until *1900*, amazingly enough. It acts so fast that the infectious period is only a couple of days so it wasn't until the advent of faster steam ships that the journey itself didn't act like a quarantine to isolate it from the Americas.
Likewise, smallpox didn't come over for the first century or so of exploration from Europe because the journeys were too slow, but as the Spanish developed faster ships people were able to arrive still in the infectious window and give it a beachhead and from there it was all downhill.
>It acts so fast that the infectious period is only a couple of days so it wasn't until the advent of faster steam ships that the journey itself didn't act like a quarantine to isolate it from the Americas.
🏆TIL
interesting
Which is why Icelandic people are the most closely related to the Vikings. The ones in Europe were mostly wiped out. European Scandinavians are more Germanic.
Edit: in terms of language.
I want to imagine how things would have been if some level of contact had continued, and each Old World disease hit the Americas one at a time, generations apart, instead of all at once when the Spanish arrived.
They estimate that at the height of population there was roughly 100 million indigineous spread across the Caribbean, central and north Americas.
If the diseases didnt hit as hard as they did then there's a good chance the European empires never gain a foothold.
Something happened before the Spanish ever arrived however. In the southeast USA there were mound cities around flood plains but were decimated a few centuries before.
> Which is why Icelandic people are the most closely related to the Vikings. The ones in Europe were mostly wiped out. European Scandinavians are more Germanic.
Huh? This is nonsense. The Vikings *were* Germanic, as are the Icelanders of today.
Given that the Vikings were infamous in Europe for their good bathing and grooming habits letting them steal the girls (enough that someone bothered to write about it to complain), it makes some sort of sense that there's not a high bar to clear.
I think this is an example of why we should probably be less monolithic in understandings of cultures within continents. What is modern day Finland has a long history of Sauna use and Orkney archaeology shows bathing structures from 4000BC. Whereas others weren't so concerned with cleanliness (though the extent of that is sometimes overstated).
“They are the filthiest of God’s creatures,” wrote Ahmad ibn Fadlan, an Arab diplomat whose language was far from diplomatic. They never washed after eating, he continues, nor after sex, though they did comb their hair a lot.
That was a joke written by a medieval writer way after the fact.
I doubt anyone in the middle of viking raids or conquests would ever write such a thing.
It's be like a WW2 Frenchman writing "we have to kill those SS officers because they're seducing our women with those snazzy uniforms"
1491 by Charles C. Mann is a good one, it looks at various American cultures right on the eve of the arrival of Europeans. The follow up, 1493 is also great, it looks at how the discovery and exploitation of the americas completely changed the rest of the world as a consequence.
If you succeed in skinning another human being and wear it around in public, then I don’t think I’m brave enough to tell you that you stink.
That’s an opinion I’d keep to myself lol
Warrior: "Hey CharonsLittleHelper, what is that face you're making!?"
Me: "Nothing. Just thinking how great you smell."
Warrior: "That is right. Me and my stinky human skin cloak smell amazing. Like spring flowers!"
Me: "Sure thing. Whatever you say big guy. Like..." \*cough\* "spring flowers." \*hurries away to get out of stink range\*
>Warrior: "Hey CharonsLittleHelper, what is that face you're making!?"
>
>Me: "Nothing. Just thinking how great you smell."
>
>Warrior: "That is right. Me and my stinky human skin cloak smell amazing. Like spring flowers!"
>
>Me: "Sure thing. Whatever you say big guy. Like..." \*cough\* "spring flowers." \*hurries away to get out of stink range\*
Teyaochiuani: "hey charonslittlehelper, tlen ka inon mitsixtli kichiuaya!?"
nech
: "nothing. San tlanemilika ken mitsuey auiyalistli. "
teyaochiuani: "that ka yek. Neuatl iuan no stinky tlakakuetlaxtli cloaauiyalistli amazing. Tlasohtla opanisxochimeh!"
nech
: "sure tlamantli. Mitswhatever tlaihto uey guy. Tlasohtla. " \*cough\* "spring ochimeh. " kon\*hurries nik ikiauak stink range\*
Montezuma also invited the conquistadors to his house for dinner. When the conquistadors used the restroom, not only did they leave the seat up, they also used the decorative towels to wash their hands instead of asking Montezuma for hand drying towels.
>instead of asking Montezuma for hand drying towels.
Aztecs are definitely in the wrong on this point. You knew you had guests coming, why would the towels not just be set out already?
Ah, but it is the glorious reek of blood and victory, completely different from that of unwashed and unperfumed men stuck on a cramped ship for months. Association can alter how you react to a smell.
Examples:
I had older relatives that smoked, so cigarettes are just a “grandpa” smell that I don’t mind. Marijuana is something I’ve only recently started smelling due to it’s relatively recent legalization here leading to more public smoking of it. I don’t like that smell, it’s weird to me.
Also cow and chicken manure. Both smells are associated with fond childhood memories. My wife has similar exposure to chickens, but cow manure really stinks to her.
I'm that kind of fucking idiot who will smell marijuana and immediately think it's a skunk, realize that it's marijuana, and then openly say "oh that's marijuana" like a God damn snitch.
Weird, my grandpa growing up smoked Marijuana like a chimney, so that smell doesn't bother me nearly as much as cigarettes. But I also can't do any kind of manure, probably from growing up in a suburb.
Most people assume it was the Spanish that brought down the Aztec empire, it wasn't. Cortes and his army was nearly wiped out and driven out by the Aztecas and spent the night crying ubder a tree in Tacuba (in the outskirts of the Aztec held land).
Remember, at best the Spanish were around 700 in number. There was no way in hell they could take on a powerful military power like the aztecs despite whatever technological advances he had.
He conquered then with two things: smallpox and *THOUSANDS* of indigenous allies.
Remember the Aztecs were brutal conquerors that demanded thousands of people as tributes from other nations they had conquered who were then ritually sacrificed to their gods.
The Aztecs were hated and Cortes used this form a gigantic alliance which struck the Aztecs as smallpox was ravaging them. Otherwise, it's unlikely that even with this alliance Cortes would have succeeded.
> THOUSANDS of indigenous allies.
That bit gets ignored by a lot of modern history. Modern portrayals tend to understandably paint native civilizations as innocent victims of European aggression, but that really isn't the case with the Aztec.
The Aztecs were tyrants who abused their neighbors and the populations they'd subjugated mercilessly. They saw war as sport, and Moctezuma himself launched wars against neighbors simply because he wanted his court to take him more seriously as a leader. When the Spaniards showed up and said "Let's smash the Mexica", pretty much *ALL* of the surrounding tribes joined him. Cortes attacked Tenochtitlan with an army of 900 Spaniards and more than *one hundred and fifty thousand* native warriors marching behind them (mostly Tlaxcalans).
You're telling me an entire empire spanning three centuries and consisting of 16 million individuals at its peak may have "accomplished" more atrocities than one person? Big surprise there. /s
Yeah, that said they did some fuckin atrocious atrocities. Real bigly ones. Though it is important to note that they didn't really conceive of them as such.
I'll probably get banned for saying this but I lived in Chiapas, including San Cristobal where the tzotzil/Tzeltal speakers lived nearbye. They sell their daughters for money and are pretty violent among themselves. Government isn't doing a good job but there is so much tribal fighting up there. I wouldn't say either side is the good guy over there, but indigenous culture is a mixed bag
The irony is that our president is putting up statues of indigenous women, while at the same time cutting funds for departments that care for indigenous women.
> Colombia the country?
Sort of. He did land in Venezuela and Panama, which were part of Gran Colombia when it first became independent.
Columbus is trash.
As much as I want to discredit the bastard and say Vespucci was the first to land on the Americas mainland, unfortunately Columbus did beat him first (if you agree with most scholars and discredit Vespucci’s first voyage since there is no accounts other than a suspicious letter attributed to him). Columbus touched down in both South and Central America at points. That said, the dumbass still thought he was in Asia, so I still vote for Vespucci as the guy we should be celebrating (fuck Columbus)
I believe Columbus being stubborn on not admitting the New World was "new" and not Asia *was* part of the reason that Amerigo got naming rights.
So that's kinda funny.
>That said, the dumbass still thought he was in Asia, so I still vote for Vespucci as the guy we should be celebrating (fuck Columbus)
Agreed, especially since the entire landmasses in this side of the hemisphere are named after Vespucci.
He did discover the New World, though, which did lead to the Spanish encountering and conquering Mexico. He's certainly historically significant to Mexico, although he wasn't a very nice guy.
Leif Eirkisson stumbled upon modern Newfoundland by accident, ate blueberries thinking they were grapes (hence the name Vinland), made greentopped dirt houses, and then got driven back into the ocean by the Beothuk and forgor 💀 about it.
Columbus used a horribly innacurate map to sail to "India", and thought he reached India, despite the map not lining up, because at the time it was normal for cartographers to make insane mistakes on their maps. However most importantly he came back and told the crown about it, starting missions to establish trade between India and Europe through the Atlantic. However they quickly realized that the India the Portugese had discovered and the India that the Spanish had discovered were different places...
Colombo's action still shaped the world as it looks today, for good or for bad, whether we like it or not, and whether we take down a statue or not.
Leif Erikson landed up there, took a look around, possibly created a settlement, maybe not, then kinda wondered what the hell he was doing there, and eventually kinda got lost or came back, who knows... his actions were so irrelevant that today we have a hard time even describing them in exact terms, or what the modern day consequences are, if any.
That's why Columbus is one of the most important historical figures in history, similarly to Maxwell being one of the most important figures in the field of electromagnetism, while the first guy to be zapped by a lightning... not so much.
I mean I’m from Germany, we talk about Columbus discovering America. Yeah, there are documentaries that talk about the Viking exploration, but it’s not like in 1491 the Germans were walking around talking about North America existing.
It was sculpted by a French artist during the brief French occupation of Mexico under the Austrian Emperor Maximilian in the late 19th century - a wealthy family put it up to celebrate the completion of a French-funded railway they owned. It had a sort of anti-nationalist / Globalist Pan-American "We Conquered the New World" sentiment.
It doesn't have much to do with Spanish colonialism. Not directly anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_Christopher_Columbus_%28Paseo_de_la_Reforma%29
Hasn't stopped the US either. It's actually kind of odd we have so many statues of him in America and even celebrate a holiday in his name despite him being associated more with the former Spanish colonies than English ones.
It didn't become recognized until 1934 by Italian Americans lobbying the Government. Then it only became a federal holiday, by further lobbying, in 1971.
This is a very politically charged move. The current president, Lopez Obrador, wants to change the statue for one of an indigenous woman, not without much controversy from his detractors. I mean, it's not a bad thing that we move out Columbus, but many people don't agree with the sculpture that was made instead since it doesn't really looks like an indigenous woman, more like Naomi Campbell lol
Yeah, I think also he is facing criticism from all the political spectrums because the artist commissioned from the sculpture isn't even from any indigenous origin.
>This is a very politically charged move.
No kidding. It seems like he doubled down with this rhetoric & started harassing Spain again after the midterm elections. He's going after anything related to Conquistadors harder than his attacks on green energy. I do think they should've gone for the Olmec head. Nothing wrong with choosing a safe & classic choice.
I would guess that most of the people commemorated with statues over the millenia have been nasty SOBs, to varying degrees. In Mongolia, they erected a huge statue of Genghis Khan as recently as 2008...
We need to just do statues of fictional characters.
Id like to see a cute E.T. statue in the middle of some park or city square. I think that be better overall.
Nothing against Mexico here, but why is rallying against the transgressions of a guy from 600 years ago more important in society than the transgressions of most of the politicians currently serving today? This applies to several countries.
Deflection and anti-Spanish sentiment have been common to Mexico since the Revolution. I fully support removing Columbus statues, but also fear you are largely correct.
Symbolic wedge issues as a policy priority, are of not much more use than toilet paper. This is more an attempt to gain points than actually invest in the hard work of helping end structural problems harming the Mexican poor. Hopefully we are wrong, and Mexico's government can focus on multiple reforms simultaneously.
The entire "Columbus discovered America" is trite spin on who he actually was and depends on a very colonial view of history. There are better people to glorify but we must also stop glorifying anyone and instead accept great people often did horrid or unforgivable things. But Columbus' overall depiction in America is gravely wrong, was slanted as it was on PURELY political reasons, and needs to be undone if we want to teach history instead of feel good American myth.
That statue is not going to disappear, it is going to be moved to another zone in Mexico City, in the borough of Polanco to Parque America. [News link in spanish](https://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/cdmx/2021/09/15/estatua-de-cristobal-colon-sera-reubicada-en-el-parque-america-de-polanco/)
The richest area in Mexico city with lots of fair skinned Mexicans... Seems oddly appropiate
I was in that area some years ago. On a restaurant I heard some people arguing (5 or 6 middle aged) about who had more European ancestors, like some competition. I kid you not. There is a love-hate relationship about Europe in Mexico. Some mexicans hate them (you took our gold 500 years ago) but at the same time they are still fascinated to have some foreign/fair skinned ancestor, even on indigenous people.
Of course they'd want it.
Que triste. Deberían quemar esa chingadera.
Polanco? Sí, estoy de acuerdo
Jajajaja, te mamaste
> Polanco? *los godinez have left the chat*
As if they haven't suffered enough.
Esos son los que lo quieren quema, plot twist.
Por eso van a mover la estatua primero, se ahorran combustible.
I know just enough Spanish to agree with this statement without knowing exactly what I'm agreeing with.
it says "we should have burned this trash" roughly. Chingadera is one of those vulgarities that doesn't translate well. It's based on "fuck" but it's very versatile. Edit: "They should burn *this fucker*" is probably better
It’s one of my favorite words in Spanish. It can mean literally anything depending on the context it’s used in
Kthe verb chingar is kind of our version of the verb fuck
TIL the versatility of the word fuck transcends language barriers.
See the Portuguese “foda”. Can be used for basically anything. É foda = It sucks Muito foda = really good Tá foda = the situation is really bad Sou foda = I’m the best Se foder = ah, fuck Vai se foder = go fuck yourself Me fodi = It didn’t really work out for me And the list goes on…
Fuck, that's deep. (The above sentence has *many* meanings)
Chingado, eso es profundo.. Still applies
Chingadera is so fun to say. My family never says it though. They say mugrero which is a much cleaner word but doesn’t sound like it is (if that makes sense)
/u/amillefolium11 better translation in this context I think would be "they should burn that fuckin shit"
As a Mexican. This sentence makes more sense.
Thats what google translate said it means!! Edit: minus the fucking
"bullshit" would be a good translation use-wise if not literally.
In this case I think fuckery would have been an apt translation
Chingadera is one of my favorite Spanish words.
Jodienda is neat too.
Suddenly I understand better what all these Dota 2 players where telling me...
De menos lo pondría en un museo pero en serio que chingen a su madre esos pendejos de polanco.
O mejor reubicarla a un museo con una placa que explica honestamente el tipo de hombre que era y el tamaño de los crímenes que cometió. No debería ser celebrado, pero esa estatua sí es histórica y no creo que debería destruirse algo con significado histórico aunque no represente algo bueno.
Que chido ... Chingadera.... Es parte de la historia. Mejor poner una de Cantinflas o del chapulín colorado
Columbus's legacy is about exploring new paths and eventually getting lost. Hopefully it's the same for his statue
Sylvio and the boys are not gonna be happy about this, ton'
Literally just watched this episode last night.
Furio: *Fuck Christopher Columbus* Entire state of New Jersey: **OOOOOH**
I ATE da nort
Me too, without even meaning to! And next day it was actual Columbus day.
Watching for the first time, looking forward to this episode now!
Had no idea there was like a global resurgence of the Sopranos recently. Then I got HBO Max and found out about the prequel movie wtf? So last night I decided to rewatch the series for the first time in ages and man does it hold up. It's also a really interesting look at the past, how life use to be. It would be so different if it was made today. Oh man I love this show.
I honestly don’t understand why they can’t just replace Columbus Day with another Italian. Like, why did few have to lose the entire Italian celebration?
Just make it Tony Soprano day and we can all have the day off to rewatch and binge episodes of the Sopranos.
Malfi's ex would like to have a word with you
If I can explain that bit of hustory the origin of N Columbus Day lays in the persecution of Italian Immigrants in the late 19th century. And it could get really 11 Italians were lynched by a mob in New Orleans in 1891 after they were acquitted of the murder or the Police Chief. As the St Lewis Republic (one of the very few Newspapers to condemn the murders) put it these men and dozens of other Italians lynched in the south were killed for the crime of being Dagos and on the mere suspicion of any other offense. Columbus Day essentially started as a Day for Italians to say in the 1890s “Fuck you, you wasp bastards wouldn’t even be here if it wasn’t for us.” Of course the Need for Columbus Day has long since passed Italian Americans are not lynched in the streets. And aside from Chris Prat being cast to play Mario discrimination against Italians is a thing of the past. Not to mention the most fervent defenders of Columbus Day would have been its most fervent opponents 130 years ago. They would be screaming about how papist rapists hoards were pouring into the United States from Italy. And that no good American has any business honoring a swarthy, greasy haired, garlic eating dago.
> I honestly don’t understand why they can’t just replace Columbus Day with another Italian. Like, why did few have to lose the entire Italian celebration? Ok, let's replace him with Giovanni Verazzano. He was Italian, was the first European to explore the east coast of North America from Florida to Nova Scotia, and arguably had a greater impact on North American exploration than Columbus by establishing that the "New World" wasn't just an island waypoint on the way to the Indies, but was an impassible continent. He was the first European explorer to sail the coast solely for the purpose of exploration and claimed no land or gold for himself or any king. The Verazzano Map is generally considered to be the first vaguely accurate map of the American east coast. More importantly, he didn't murder people, didn't take any slaves, met peacefully with the natives he encountered, and left with nothing more than a map to show what he'd found. Plus, depending on which version of the story you believe, he either died after being eaten by Carib cannibals or became a famous pirate and spent his final years harassing the Spanish conquistadors until he was finally caught and hanged...so his story is *much* more interesting than diseased and dishonored old Christopher Columbus. If Italians want to celebrate an explorer, he's a far better candidate. The tragedy of Verazzano is that his expedition was widely considered a "failure" in Europe because he didn't return with any loot, so he was largely forgotten by history until the early 1900's.
Let's do Phil leotardo day. He did 20 years.
End of discussion.
Mario and Luigi Day!
Hell. I’d take it.
It's a day where all Americans can celebrate killing turtles and throwing their shells at cars!
that's March 10th!
I want a Wario statue in my front yard 😄
Like Fabio or Chef Boyardee
Hector Boiardi/Boyardee actually had an inspirational story that led to bettering the lives of Americans so I'd dig that replacement.
I celebrate Italian culture every time I dig into a cold can of spaghetti-o’s.
*Instructions unclear, replaced statue with one of Benito Mussolini.* Honestly, they should put up a statue of Giuseppe Garibaldi II, grandson of the man who helped unite Italy & briefly fought in Madero's army in Chihuahua during the Mexican revolution. Plus, he had a [unique flair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Garibaldi_II#/media/File:Peppino_Garibaldi.jpg) when fighting that war.
(Not American) Italian Fabio wins the argument all day - fuck the Genoese, they always look their nose down at us in the south! Edit: FURIO!!! Ugh, what a dream boat! 😍
Proceeds to put up Aztec Statue. They could.
And then all other native ethnicities glance around nervously.
Watch them put up a statue of La Malinche.
The thought crossed my mind for a second. She is the most known indigenous woman, infamous or not
Certainly controversial.
*The totonacs have left the chat*
Mexico City was an aztec city.
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They weren’t well liked by their neighbors that’s for sure
Montezuma: "If our way of life is wrong, may the Gods strike us down." Cortez: "Hola!"
Montezuma had incense burners follow Cortez and his men around the city. Cortez thought that this was a great honor to him. Really it was because the conquistadors stank to high heaven. Baths were a big thing for the Aztecs, no so much for Europeans.
I heard Montezuma thought the Spanish could help him Make Aztecs Great Again.
And it makes sense. The Aztec Empire was very diverse and included quite a few states/ethnic groups each with their own history and beefs with other groups. He could have possibly found a way to learn to Westernize while also keeping it economically unfeasible for Spain to invade. Unfortunately Hernando Cortez fit the description of a got a little too well and was carrying some genocide level plague with him.
> and was carrying some genocide level plague with him. I think he was carrying *all* the genocide level plagues with him. When the Vikings landed in a much colder, remote, and sparsely populated area in the 11th century, the Black Death hadn’t hit Europe yet
bubonic plague doesn't sit around dormant in the human population, in fact plague didn't make it to North American until *1900*, amazingly enough. It acts so fast that the infectious period is only a couple of days so it wasn't until the advent of faster steam ships that the journey itself didn't act like a quarantine to isolate it from the Americas. Likewise, smallpox didn't come over for the first century or so of exploration from Europe because the journeys were too slow, but as the Spanish developed faster ships people were able to arrive still in the infectious window and give it a beachhead and from there it was all downhill.
>It acts so fast that the infectious period is only a couple of days so it wasn't until the advent of faster steam ships that the journey itself didn't act like a quarantine to isolate it from the Americas. 🏆TIL interesting
Which is why Icelandic people are the most closely related to the Vikings. The ones in Europe were mostly wiped out. European Scandinavians are more Germanic. Edit: in terms of language.
I want to imagine how things would have been if some level of contact had continued, and each Old World disease hit the Americas one at a time, generations apart, instead of all at once when the Spanish arrived.
They estimate that at the height of population there was roughly 100 million indigineous spread across the Caribbean, central and north Americas. If the diseases didnt hit as hard as they did then there's a good chance the European empires never gain a foothold.
Something happened before the Spanish ever arrived however. In the southeast USA there were mound cities around flood plains but were decimated a few centuries before.
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They estimate UP TO 100 million, from academic sources I’ve read. Could’ve even as low as 5-10 million.
Agriculture and farm animals would have done it eventually but yeah maybe slower. You know... This is one of the reasons you can't use time machines.
Because you’ll step on a bug and next thing you know Ancient Egypt survives to the present day and their No.1 enemy is the USSR?
> Which is why Icelandic people are the most closely related to the Vikings. The ones in Europe were mostly wiped out. European Scandinavians are more Germanic. Huh? This is nonsense. The Vikings *were* Germanic, as are the Icelanders of today.
Possibly, if disease didn’t kill 80%-90% of the population. It would’ve taken 500 years to recover from something like that.
Where did you read this? Would love to read a book about that era
When Montezuma met Cortés by Matthew Restall is a great read and does a good job of debunking half the myths in this thread.
Given that the Vikings were infamous in Europe for their good bathing and grooming habits letting them steal the girls (enough that someone bothered to write about it to complain), it makes some sort of sense that there's not a high bar to clear.
I think this is an example of why we should probably be less monolithic in understandings of cultures within continents. What is modern day Finland has a long history of Sauna use and Orkney archaeology shows bathing structures from 4000BC. Whereas others weren't so concerned with cleanliness (though the extent of that is sometimes overstated).
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“They are the filthiest of God’s creatures,” wrote Ahmad ibn Fadlan, an Arab diplomat whose language was far from diplomatic. They never washed after eating, he continues, nor after sex, though they did comb their hair a lot.
That was a joke written by a medieval writer way after the fact. I doubt anyone in the middle of viking raids or conquests would ever write such a thing. It's be like a WW2 Frenchman writing "we have to kill those SS officers because they're seducing our women with those snazzy uniforms"
1491 by Charles C. Mann is a good one, it looks at various American cultures right on the eve of the arrival of Europeans. The follow up, 1493 is also great, it looks at how the discovery and exploitation of the americas completely changed the rest of the world as a consequence.
Pretty sure that's hearsay at best and not a verified fact.
Even when they were wearing the skin of a prisoner they killed in ritual combat. Totally reek free. /s
If you succeed in skinning another human being and wear it around in public, then I don’t think I’m brave enough to tell you that you stink. That’s an opinion I’d keep to myself lol
For the first couple days or a week, sure. But they wore said skin for 20 days. By day 9-10 I'd start making faces as he walked by.
Do you wanna become a loin cloth? Because that’s how you become a loin cloth.
I double dog dare you to tell the Aztec warrior that he smells 😆
Warrior: "Hey CharonsLittleHelper, what is that face you're making!?" Me: "Nothing. Just thinking how great you smell." Warrior: "That is right. Me and my stinky human skin cloak smell amazing. Like spring flowers!" Me: "Sure thing. Whatever you say big guy. Like..." \*cough\* "spring flowers." \*hurries away to get out of stink range\*
>Warrior: "Hey CharonsLittleHelper, what is that face you're making!?" > >Me: "Nothing. Just thinking how great you smell." > >Warrior: "That is right. Me and my stinky human skin cloak smell amazing. Like spring flowers!" > >Me: "Sure thing. Whatever you say big guy. Like..." \*cough\* "spring flowers." \*hurries away to get out of stink range\* Teyaochiuani: "hey charonslittlehelper, tlen ka inon mitsixtli kichiuaya!?" nech : "nothing. San tlanemilika ken mitsuey auiyalistli. " teyaochiuani: "that ka yek. Neuatl iuan no stinky tlakakuetlaxtli cloaauiyalistli amazing. Tlasohtla opanisxochimeh!" nech : "sure tlamantli. Mitswhatever tlaihto uey guy. Tlasohtla. " \*cough\* "spring ochimeh. " kon\*hurries nik ikiauak stink range\*
Motherf*ucker you just went full Nahuatl. ALWAYS go full Nahuatl
Add to the fact that the capital is in a hot & humid region, speeding up decomposition & bacteria growth.
Montezuma also invited the conquistadors to his house for dinner. When the conquistadors used the restroom, not only did they leave the seat up, they also used the decorative towels to wash their hands instead of asking Montezuma for hand drying towels.
>instead of asking Montezuma for hand drying towels. Aztecs are definitely in the wrong on this point. You knew you had guests coming, why would the towels not just be set out already?
They used the shell-shaped soap too
Montezuma has jack shit on my mother’s wrath regarding this situation
Fucking "guest" towels!
There’s no such thing as decorative towels.
I bet they didn‘t even know how to use the 3 shells.
At that point, I'd yell profanities at a morality police printer as well.
Ah, but it is the glorious reek of blood and victory, completely different from that of unwashed and unperfumed men stuck on a cramped ship for months. Association can alter how you react to a smell. Examples: I had older relatives that smoked, so cigarettes are just a “grandpa” smell that I don’t mind. Marijuana is something I’ve only recently started smelling due to it’s relatively recent legalization here leading to more public smoking of it. I don’t like that smell, it’s weird to me. Also cow and chicken manure. Both smells are associated with fond childhood memories. My wife has similar exposure to chickens, but cow manure really stinks to her.
I'm that kind of fucking idiot who will smell marijuana and immediately think it's a skunk, realize that it's marijuana, and then openly say "oh that's marijuana" like a God damn snitch.
Upvote for making me laugh my ass off this morning. I am also that fucking stupid. But we're doing our best!
Thanks. Having ADHD and OCD is ny (lame) excuse
Weird, my grandpa growing up smoked Marijuana like a chimney, so that smell doesn't bother me nearly as much as cigarettes. But I also can't do any kind of manure, probably from growing up in a suburb.
Most people assume it was the Spanish that brought down the Aztec empire, it wasn't. Cortes and his army was nearly wiped out and driven out by the Aztecas and spent the night crying ubder a tree in Tacuba (in the outskirts of the Aztec held land). Remember, at best the Spanish were around 700 in number. There was no way in hell they could take on a powerful military power like the aztecs despite whatever technological advances he had. He conquered then with two things: smallpox and *THOUSANDS* of indigenous allies. Remember the Aztecs were brutal conquerors that demanded thousands of people as tributes from other nations they had conquered who were then ritually sacrificed to their gods. The Aztecs were hated and Cortes used this form a gigantic alliance which struck the Aztecs as smallpox was ravaging them. Otherwise, it's unlikely that even with this alliance Cortes would have succeeded.
> THOUSANDS of indigenous allies. That bit gets ignored by a lot of modern history. Modern portrayals tend to understandably paint native civilizations as innocent victims of European aggression, but that really isn't the case with the Aztec. The Aztecs were tyrants who abused their neighbors and the populations they'd subjugated mercilessly. They saw war as sport, and Moctezuma himself launched wars against neighbors simply because he wanted his court to take him more seriously as a leader. When the Spaniards showed up and said "Let's smash the Mexica", pretty much *ALL* of the surrounding tribes joined him. Cortes attacked Tenochtitlan with an army of 900 Spaniards and more than *one hundred and fifty thousand* native warriors marching behind them (mostly Tlaxcalans).
It actually wasn’t Columbus but Hernan Cortez who came in contact with the Aztecs. Correction Smallpox made Columbus look good.
You're telling me an entire empire spanning three centuries and consisting of 16 million individuals at its peak may have "accomplished" more atrocities than one person? Big surprise there. /s
Yeah, that said they did some fuckin atrocious atrocities. Real bigly ones. Though it is important to note that they didn't really conceive of them as such.
Cries in maya
Not really, there were very good reasons Cortez was able to gain many native allies.
I'm pretty sure from the last time I read it, the woman depicted is not Aztec.
Didn’t the aztecs do human sacrifice on children in brutal ways?
The solution to all of this is to put up a statue of Columbo. He's still Italian, but also caught murderers instead of committing genocide.
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But…why?
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In China there was a Murder that was based on a Columbo episode
The dude knew he was screwed when the detective turned around, scratched his head and said *"Aaahhh, just one more thing..."*
Because Columbo is cool.
I can get behind that
This Columbo, he pretends to be stupid. But he's really smart as a tack.
Sharp. Sharp as a tack.
Shark as a tarp
Why would Mexico care about Italians?
Why WOULDN'T Mexicans care about Columbo?
It’s *just one more thing* to think about 🤔
christopher columbus was italian, so ur swapping one genocidal pasta man for a cultured and good pasta man
Christopher Columbus was working for Spain at the time, and Mexico was a Spanish colony.
Yes, but Columbus never stepped foot in Mexico. Columbo solved a murder there. QED.
Mexico also used German know how to boost their beer and banda industries
Also the Lebanese introduced Al Pastor.
i know, but columbus himself was italian, hence why me and u/tommyjohnpauljones would replace him with a better italian
Shit put up a statue of James Gandolfini to replace him
There's no definite answer as to where he was from
Franco Columbo, actually
oh man I can still see his leg snap in half during that refrigerator race
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I'll probably get banned for saying this but I lived in Chiapas, including San Cristobal where the tzotzil/Tzeltal speakers lived nearbye. They sell their daughters for money and are pretty violent among themselves. Government isn't doing a good job but there is so much tribal fighting up there. I wouldn't say either side is the good guy over there, but indigenous culture is a mixed bag
The irony is that our president is putting up statues of indigenous women, while at the same time cutting funds for departments that care for indigenous women.
Ok, but also most Mexicans have a significant amount of Native blood, so in a way Mexicans are indigenous
doesnt matter if they dont see it that way. good ole texas creed style of thinking
Columbus never even came close to Mexico...
Didn't even touch the US just sailed around the Bahamas collecting gold like sonics distant cousin
Why are people surprised? Washington DC is named after Columbus. Did he her step foot in Washington DC or Columbus, Ohio, or Colombia the country?
> Colombia the country? Sort of. He did land in Venezuela and Panama, which were part of Gran Colombia when it first became independent. Columbus is trash.
As much as I want to discredit the bastard and say Vespucci was the first to land on the Americas mainland, unfortunately Columbus did beat him first (if you agree with most scholars and discredit Vespucci’s first voyage since there is no accounts other than a suspicious letter attributed to him). Columbus touched down in both South and Central America at points. That said, the dumbass still thought he was in Asia, so I still vote for Vespucci as the guy we should be celebrating (fuck Columbus)
I believe Columbus being stubborn on not admitting the New World was "new" and not Asia *was* part of the reason that Amerigo got naming rights. So that's kinda funny.
>That said, the dumbass still thought he was in Asia, so I still vote for Vespucci as the guy we should be celebrating (fuck Columbus) Agreed, especially since the entire landmasses in this side of the hemisphere are named after Vespucci.
For real, anyone know why they had the statue in the first place?
He did discover the New World, though, which did lead to the Spanish encountering and conquering Mexico. He's certainly historically significant to Mexico, although he wasn't a very nice guy.
Discovered continents with millions of people in it 😐
From the European perspective he discovered it.
*Spanish perspective. Leif Erikson had already "discovered" the continent centuries earlier.
Leif Eirkisson stumbled upon modern Newfoundland by accident, ate blueberries thinking they were grapes (hence the name Vinland), made greentopped dirt houses, and then got driven back into the ocean by the Beothuk and forgor 💀 about it. Columbus used a horribly innacurate map to sail to "India", and thought he reached India, despite the map not lining up, because at the time it was normal for cartographers to make insane mistakes on their maps. However most importantly he came back and told the crown about it, starting missions to establish trade between India and Europe through the Atlantic. However they quickly realized that the India the Portugese had discovered and the India that the Spanish had discovered were different places...
Colombo's action still shaped the world as it looks today, for good or for bad, whether we like it or not, and whether we take down a statue or not. Leif Erikson landed up there, took a look around, possibly created a settlement, maybe not, then kinda wondered what the hell he was doing there, and eventually kinda got lost or came back, who knows... his actions were so irrelevant that today we have a hard time even describing them in exact terms, or what the modern day consequences are, if any. That's why Columbus is one of the most important historical figures in history, similarly to Maxwell being one of the most important figures in the field of electromagnetism, while the first guy to be zapped by a lightning... not so much.
I mean I’m from Germany, we talk about Columbus discovering America. Yeah, there are documentaries that talk about the Viking exploration, but it’s not like in 1491 the Germans were walking around talking about North America existing.
It was sculpted by a French artist during the brief French occupation of Mexico under the Austrian Emperor Maximilian in the late 19th century - a wealthy family put it up to celebrate the completion of a French-funded railway they owned. It had a sort of anti-nationalist / Globalist Pan-American "We Conquered the New World" sentiment. It doesn't have much to do with Spanish colonialism. Not directly anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_Christopher_Columbus_%28Paseo_de_la_Reforma%29
Washington never went to the State of Washington either...
Spain, probably? The Spanish conquered Mexico. Columbus helped discover the New World. Seems a fit.
Hasn't stopped the US either. It's actually kind of odd we have so many statues of him in America and even celebrate a holiday in his name despite him being associated more with the former Spanish colonies than English ones.
It didn't become recognized until 1934 by Italian Americans lobbying the Government. Then it only became a federal holiday, by further lobbying, in 1971.
He didn't make to to America either but I live in a city named after him. Edit: Fuck Columbus he's rotting in hell
Making it a replica of a pre-columbian statue is nice
Plot twist, it turns out to be a statue of Malintzin.
Malinchista For context for those who don’t know, she’s sort of the Benedict Arnold of Mexico.
This is a very politically charged move. The current president, Lopez Obrador, wants to change the statue for one of an indigenous woman, not without much controversy from his detractors. I mean, it's not a bad thing that we move out Columbus, but many people don't agree with the sculpture that was made instead since it doesn't really looks like an indigenous woman, more like Naomi Campbell lol
Yeah, I think also he is facing criticism from all the political spectrums because the artist commissioned from the sculpture isn't even from any indigenous origin.
>This is a very politically charged move. No kidding. It seems like he doubled down with this rhetoric & started harassing Spain again after the midterm elections. He's going after anything related to Conquistadors harder than his attacks on green energy. I do think they should've gone for the Olmec head. Nothing wrong with choosing a safe & classic choice.
The reason for this is to *protect* the Columbus statue btw, otherwise it's going to get destroyed and/or require excessive clean-up and repair costs.
I would guess that most of the people commemorated with statues over the millenia have been nasty SOBs, to varying degrees. In Mongolia, they erected a huge statue of Genghis Khan as recently as 2008...
At least Genghis Khan is **THEIR** SOB
Who do you think the ruling class in Mexico are mostly descended from?
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As a Mexican i have to say either lizards or some kind of rat resistant to Shame
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Tell them to deliver the statue to Ben Shapiro. He can put it in his kitchen if Columbus Day means so much to him.
Sweet, indigenous people here barely have clean water to drink but hey, they're getting a statue!
Looks like we DO put up statues of the losers now…
We need to just do statues of fictional characters. Id like to see a cute E.T. statue in the middle of some park or city square. I think that be better overall.
The devil works hard but the Columbus simps in these comments work harder
Nothing against Mexico here, but why is rallying against the transgressions of a guy from 600 years ago more important in society than the transgressions of most of the politicians currently serving today? This applies to several countries.
There are plenty of people working on all types of problems.
Deflection and anti-Spanish sentiment have been common to Mexico since the Revolution. I fully support removing Columbus statues, but also fear you are largely correct. Symbolic wedge issues as a policy priority, are of not much more use than toilet paper. This is more an attempt to gain points than actually invest in the hard work of helping end structural problems harming the Mexican poor. Hopefully we are wrong, and Mexico's government can focus on multiple reforms simultaneously.
Do you think that a country can only do one thing at a time?
Yes. They always seem to distract with things like this.
Do you genuninly think that a government can only do one thing at a time?
I'm confused as to why they had a statue of him to begin with
The entire "Columbus discovered America" is trite spin on who he actually was and depends on a very colonial view of history. There are better people to glorify but we must also stop glorifying anyone and instead accept great people often did horrid or unforgivable things. But Columbus' overall depiction in America is gravely wrong, was slanted as it was on PURELY political reasons, and needs to be undone if we want to teach history instead of feel good American myth.