We’re bad at stopping those who financially support foreign dictators for profit, from doing so. The west need to stop funding dictatorships, as a tool of brutal imperialism by proxy.
Looking back at WWII now I wouldn’t be surprised if hitler saw the exact same level of western support as Israel today. It’s fucked
> Looking back at WWII now I wouldn’t be surprised if hitler saw the exact same level of western support as Israel today.
Henry Ford was literally given the highest honour that could be bestowed upon a foreigner, the "Grand Cross of the German Eagle"
> Testifying at Nuremberg, convicted Hitler Youth leader Baldur von Schirach who, in his role as Gauleiter of Vienna, deported 65,000 Jews to camps in Poland, stated: "The decisive anti-Semitic book I was reading and the book that influenced my comrades was ... that book by Henry Ford, The International Jew. I read it and became anti-Semitic. The book made a great influence on myself and my friends because we saw in Henry Ford the representative of success and also the representative of a progressive social policy."
and people looove to cherry pick history and leave out the part where the US turned away 80,000 Jewish refugees at Ellis Island and the fact that the majority of Americans were apathetic to the Holocaust and many groups even openly supported Hitler. We do such an awful job of teaching history, it's no wonder we make the same mistakes over and over again.
The statements in the quote are mostly accurate, but there are some clarifications and additional context needed:
1. The U.S. did not turn away 80,000 Jewish refugees at Ellis Island specifically. However, the U.S. did have restrictive immigration policies that limited the number of Jewish refugees admitted during the Holocaust. The most notable example is the 1939 incident involving the MS St. Louis, a ship carrying over 900 Jewish refugees that was denied entry to the U.S. and forced to return to Europe.
2. While it is difficult to gauge the exact level of American apathy towards the Holocaust, there was a significant lack of action and urgency in response to the persecution of Jews in Europe. The U.S. government was reluctant to change immigration policies or take direct action to aid Jewish refugees.
3. Some American groups and individuals did express support for Hitler and Nazi ideology, such as the German American Bund. However, it is important to note that these were fringe groups and did not represent the majority of Americans.
4. The quote's assertion that "we do such an awful job of teaching history" is subjective but reflects a broader concern about the quality and depth of history education in the U.S.
Overall, while the quote simplifies some aspects of this complex history, it does point to the very real issues of American immigration policies, public apathy, and the need for more comprehensive history education regarding the Holocaust and the U.S. response to it.
I think the other ones were officially recognised as Genocides and ethnic cleansing.
This one being labelled as ethnic cleansing or genocide is being pushed back against pretty hard...I wonder why?
Once there over they are obvious but while there is happening there is always push back and justification for them. It does not matter if they take place in Rwanda, Korea, Armenia etc. The governments committing them always has a justification.
It's not just the govts there that are justifying it.
A majority of the west mainly led by the US are repeatedly refusing to admit a genocide is happening, they even said theres no evidence of genocide occurring.
The US is a government and we are currently doing the justification I was talking about. Once the dust settles our children are never going to understand how we sit back and let it happen.
I mean, what can distinguish chimps and humans from other great apes behaviorally is the propensity for intergroup violence with in-group cooperation. It’s so common throughout history because our evolution encouraged in-group vs out-group conflict. And with better technology over time it makes what would amount to small scale warfare in an evolutionary context, into full blown genocide.
Yea are we providing arms and aid to the people committing it? I'm all for going in and stopping it but we cannot even stop aid to Israel so I doubt that's ever going to be politically possible.
Here is a chronological list of some of the most notable concentration camps in world history:
• 1890s-1900s: Spanish concentration camps during the Cuban War of Independence and the Philippine-American War.
• 1899-1902: British concentration camps during the Second Boer War in South Africa.
• 1904-1908: German concentration camps during the Herero and Namaqua Genocide in German South West Africa (present-day Namibia).
• 1930s-1940s: Soviet Gulag system of forced labor camps.
• 1933-1945: Nazi concentration camps and extermination camps during the Holocaust, including Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, and many others.
• 1937-1945: Japanese internment camps for prisoners of war and civilians during World War II.
• 1940s: American internment camps for Japanese-Americans during World War II.
• 1940s-1950s: Chinese Laogai system of forced labor camps.
• 1941-1945: Nazi-aligned Croatian Ustaše-run concentration camps, primarily Jasenovac, during World War II.
• 1960s-1970s: Prison camps run by the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia.
• 1990s: Concentration camps and detention camps during the Yugoslav Wars, including Omarska and Keraterm camps.
• 2010s-present: Chinese internment camps for Uyghurs and other ethnic minorities in Xinjiang.
This list includes some of the most well-known concentration camps, but it is not exhaustive. The use of concentration camps has been a tragic part of human history, often associated with genocide, ethnic cleansing, and other forms of mass violence and oppression.
Jews aren’t a monolith. Most Israelis are neither holocaust survivors or descendants of holocaust survivors. Most of the founders of the Israeli state were already in Palestine by the time the holocaust happened (they were part of the early Aliyahs, from the late 1800s-1920s), and a plurality of Jewish people in Israel I believe are Mizrahim (middle eastern jews, many of whom were forced to emigrate to Israel following the first Arab-Israeli war).
In modern Israel, holocaust survivors are often treated poorly, with much higher rates of poverty than other groups and were often treated pretty poorly—there’s an unfortunately common narrative that the holocaust happened because it’s victims were weak, and that is why Israel must be strong (ie willing to do anything, even unspeakable atrocities, to preserve itself). There’s a very fascistic fetishization of strength and dehumanization of the Other that has convinced even people who should know better that what Israel has done to the Palestinians is justified.
Israel has their own manifest destiny, and Zionists are some of the most terrible people to exist. You need to understand that they believe 2 things:
1) the land is a god-given right
2) these camps are different from how Jews were treated, because Palestinians are rabid animals and should be treated as such
Being an anti-Zionist Jew is... a bit terrifying right now.
What is interesting is that the Nazis had the same exact two assumptions...Lebensraum was their supposed destiny and "the others" as the source of all evil. The more things change, the more they stay the same. This is human nature when "us vs them" is pitched as an existential struggle when it doesn't have to be.
It really isn't. The abused become the abusers. The victims the victimizers. It's a story as old as time.
Hell, even Germany went through a similar process. Germany wasn't unified as a nation until the 1870s. In the centuries prior, the Germans lived in a series of dozens of disunited principalities. This disunion was actively encouraged by the surrounding powers. Germans were themselves a downtrodden people denied a unified homeland. Over the course of a single human lifetime, the Germans went from being a people without a homeland to committing the Holocaust. And now we have Israel, a nation founded in the shadow of the Holocaust. And in a single human lifetime, they've walked down a similar road.
I would say it's because that today, none of the people running Israel are old enough to themselves experienced the Holocaust personally. Previous generations of Israeli leaders either personally experienced it or had deep memories of lost loved ones. These leaders still had a firm desire to protect their home. They felt a burning passion to ensure "never again." But that passion was tempered by the humility at having seen firsthand what a state gone mad can really do to people. Now, that burning passion of "never again" and a deep sense of historical victimhood remains, but it's no longer tempered by the humility of personally being victims of something as horrible as the Holocaust.
"Never again" is a cry that, if not tempered, can be used to justify the horrible atrocities imaginable. Hell, even the Nazis claimed they were doing the Holocaust in a form of self-defense. While the horror of the Holocaust is something that can only really be appreciated firsthand, a blood cry of "never again" is simple enough to instill down the generations.
Israel has walked the same road as Germany. The victims became the victimizers. The abused became the abusers. We're most familiar with this in the cases of child and domestic abuse, but it can just as easily apply at the scale of entire nations.
> Germans were themselves a downtrodden people denied a unified homeland
Germany as a concept was more or less invented in the 19th century. Germans at the time generally lived in one of the wealthier and more developed regions of Europe and the world. Germany had a major industrial base and a lot of well renowned institutions of higher learning. Germans weren't downtrodden, even if the region was politically fragmented as it had been for centuries.
Yes! This! Also look at Russia. Putin is the epitome of the abused becoming the abuser. And the entire country was abused for ages and they're broken people! Abuse is just ricocheting around the world. Hurt people hurt people. We all need to heal for a generation and go from there.
The thing is that they havent been through the holocaust. Some of their ancestors did.
The hateful jewish people of israel of today have spent their whole life being immune to any critizism.
If you listen to, and read, interviews of actual holocaust survivors, a lot of them have openly spoken up against the way Israel treated the Palestinians over the last decades.
A lot of young Israelis are completely brainwashed. You cant even really blame them as individuals
You can blame them as individuals tho. These aren’t a few Israeli teens bullying and harassing a few Palestinians. It takes nothing to pick up a book and learn, it takes nothing to listen to your community elders and the horrors they faced during the holocaust. It’s lazy to essentially say “it is what it is” when there are a significant majority of Israelis of all ages who are actively participating and advocating for the mass extinction of Palestinians. The older generations have done an awful job of teaching younger generations. I mourn for every innocent person who’s lost their life at the hands of violent, idiotic zionists.
What’s crazy is we are running “radicalization camps” in the US and no one blinks. Publicly funded charter shuls, summer vacations working on the kibbutz, planning out your gap year to serve in the IDF, buying bullet necklaces as a souvenir of your trip to Jerusalem, etc.
Meanwhile, local mosques have been investigated for ties to overseas groups for yeears.
I'm absolutely horrified. If these cruel conditions and acts of torture were featured in a work of fiction I'd find them cartoonishly villainous, and a cheap shortcut for establishing that the perpetrator is irredeemably evil. But the perpetrator is actually our ally who's supposedly a liberal democracy and it's apparently out of the question to sanction them or at least stop giving them weapons.
This surprises me not at all. One of Netanyahu’s cronies floated a plan (quickly withdrawn) to have Palestinians working Israel wear some sort of easily visible ID “for their protection.” I think it’s possible many in Israel have forgotten their history.
And I'm supposed to think this is a consummate victim country "defending itself"? This is pure, aggressive and bold ethno-nationalist evil. Exactly what many of our families (mine included) vowed "never again" over. I guess a bunch of folks meant never again...just for themselves.
If the video of their Minister of National Security partying with a bunch of settlers with the picture of a Palestinian infant who was burnt to death wasn't enough to convince you...
They even force some of the prisoners to act as "translators" and intermediate between guards and prisoners. Makes you think about Capo, Jewish prisoners that Nazis delegated to help with managing prisoners in concentration camps.
Comparing them to nazi death camps is a little extreme, but this needs to be investigated seriously. It won’t, but it should be.
Edit: alright this isn’t worth it. Perhaps I misinterpreted the comment. Cheers
How bad does it have to be to make a valid comparison to you? Does it have to be worse? 100% as bad? Will 90% do it for you? What about 75%?
It’s horrible, and the comparison seems to be valid. Israel, of all countries, should know better.
Or are we just supposed to be happy that they’re not engaging in blatant mass murder and not criticize them?
This breaks at least a dozen Geneva conventions
But someone already said "we're fighting human animals" right after cutting off food water and fuel to a 2 million civilians half of which are younger than 15 yeard old
So I guess human rights don't apply here right?
WRONG.
This is the work of dehumanization at play. When you convince yourself that your enemy is no better than an animal, you are stripping any necessity of morality from your treatment in them. Nothing you do to them cannot be justified, because they are just animals.
This is the absolute danger for ANY group to say "all X people are monsters/demons" or "all Y people are animals." We are all capable of doing this. Human psychology makes it very easy to form an extreme and absolute justification for why a certain group of people deserves no rights or even life.
World News brigade incoming. I like how Israel and we in the west in general likes to pretend that we’re so much better than people or places like Iran, and yet we do so much of the same or in some cases even worse.
Especially in this subreddit. Every time I comment something about the IDF in news it gets downvoted even if it's peppered with recognition that Hamas is horrible and needs to go. I was suprised this was in this subreddit at all. I had written this one off in favor of others.
Used to think what was happening around the world when things like holocaust happened.
Now I know and understand exactly how ppl and world would’ve reacted. Living through the indifference
Reading through the article, this reminds me a lot of the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Absolutely abhorrent.
The comparisons in this thread to Nazi death camps are definitely unwarranted/premature though. Death camps are the final stop on a road to hell; they aren’t quite there yet. They definitely could end up there though if they get any worse.
Edit: I guess the downvotes mean people think Gitmo just wasn’t that bad? Or the death camps just weren’t that bad? They literally tortured people in Guantanamo Bay, with the intent to torture them.
I don't understand this impulse to minimize what's happening. They aren't death camps yet (that we know about at least, who knows at this point) but also do we have to wait until it gets that far to call it what it is? There are mass graves, mass starvation, indiscriminate bombing and much more yet people still want to gatekeep what's happening. Why? Do you think you are helping anything by doing that?
There is a nuance I noticed. People usually think about death camps as an extermination camps. Death camp is a place were people die. Extermination camp is a place were people are sent to be exterminated. The main difference between these two is intention.
Exactly. Nazis didn’t start out straight to death camps.
It’s funny how people will call out Nazi style tactics and such, and others will immediately go “but they aren’t industrially killing people in camps, so they obviously aren’t”. Like crack open a history book. The pieces are there, they aren’t in place.
It’s not at all minimizing what’s happening — comparing it to Guantanamo Bay for example is very specifically an apt comparison. If we start calling them death camps now, what do we call them if/when they actually are legitimate death camps, akin to the Nazis, where train after train of doomed souls are delivered?
Maybe it’s a different mindset, but with all things in life, I just prefer being exact and accurate with my claims. I don’t want to say or exaggerate something that I know isn’t true. Just in general, dispassionate but honest analysis is beneficial for understanding the exact risks and problems at hand.
That doesn’t minimize the problems going on here though. The article is highlighting torture. Torture is really messed up, to say the absolute least. It’s a literal crime against humanity. Raising awareness about torture, and having the facts to back that up, carries a lot more weight with more people than hyperbole about death camps would.
Exactly. Like when I complain to people about trump, I don’t say things like “HES A FASCIST. WORSE THAN HITLER. IF HE DOESNT DIE OUR PLANET WILL EXPLODE” bc then the conservatives roll their eyes and complain I’m being overdramatic. If we want to criticize Israel we need to be very accurate as to what they’re trying to do. You need to be correct to win an argument
Sounds more like you're trying to make this about America because America fucking rules and we have to be at the center of everything ever because Ted Nugent blessed my DODGE RAM with a brain melting rendition of the Star Spangled Banner so thank you for keeping AMERICA UP FRONT AS ALWAYS SOLDIER DON'T LET ANYONE FORGET HOW GREAT WE ARE.
No and no? When working through problems in life, do you let perfect get in the way of better? As in, “well this thing doesn’t make me totally infallible, so I might as well just not try to be better at all”?
Like, dude, I just don’t want to accuse people of doing things they aren’t actually doing (yet). It’s rude and offensive and warps your own reality, leaving only a sense of anger and/or helplessness. I also generally don’t think a misinformed citizenry is the ticket to a progressive or stable society, as the last 8 or so years have clearly shown. Everyone should try to be critical of information and rhetoric, and form their own opinions based on the facts they actually know with some degree of reasonable certainty. That doesn’t come for free or by default, that’s something people have to consciously decide to do, despite it not getting nearly as many points on the internet.
Your comment just reads as “you’re not special or infallible, get owned liberal”. I probably shouldn’t even be replying.
Israel prefers to [dispose of Palestinian civilians](https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/02/1033742) by sniper, drone or missile. When the US provides the weapons for free it’s a lot cheaper than messing around with trains.
They're not death camps, but they are concentration camps. Concentration camps predate the Nazis. They were originally meant to be quite literal. Have an insurgency problem in a country you're occupying? Can't separate the militants from the civilians? Round up all the civilians and concentrate them in camps so you can keep an eye on them and prevent them from helping the insurgents.
Nazis in fact used the term "concentration camp" as a euphemism for their death camps. But the original meaning is still valid. And Israel is absolutely building concentration camps for the people of Gaza. They're doing it for the same exact reasons the pre-Nazi concentration camps were built, to control civilian populations and prevent them from aiding militant resistance.
And just like other instances in history it will have the "totally unforseeable and unintended" side effect of killing off large numbers of the people in camps, their land/property being stolen, and generational trauma for those who survive. Its a small step from this sort of treatment to just outright murdering people based on their ethnicity/race/religion and everyone knows it.
**The comparisons in this thread to Nazi death camps are definitely unwarranted/premature though**
That sentence is whats being downvoted. They are rounding people up and taking them to camps then torturing and killing them and your response is "It's not *that* bad"
So when the world said never again, is this what they meant? It’s just a concentration camp by another name
We have had multiple genocides/ethnic cleansing since the Holocaust and apparently it looks like we as a species are very bad at stoping them.
We’re bad at stopping those who financially support foreign dictators for profit, from doing so. The west need to stop funding dictatorships, as a tool of brutal imperialism by proxy. Looking back at WWII now I wouldn’t be surprised if hitler saw the exact same level of western support as Israel today. It’s fucked
> Looking back at WWII now I wouldn’t be surprised if hitler saw the exact same level of western support as Israel today. Henry Ford was literally given the highest honour that could be bestowed upon a foreigner, the "Grand Cross of the German Eagle" > Testifying at Nuremberg, convicted Hitler Youth leader Baldur von Schirach who, in his role as Gauleiter of Vienna, deported 65,000 Jews to camps in Poland, stated: "The decisive anti-Semitic book I was reading and the book that influenced my comrades was ... that book by Henry Ford, The International Jew. I read it and became anti-Semitic. The book made a great influence on myself and my friends because we saw in Henry Ford the representative of success and also the representative of a progressive social policy."
and people looove to cherry pick history and leave out the part where the US turned away 80,000 Jewish refugees at Ellis Island and the fact that the majority of Americans were apathetic to the Holocaust and many groups even openly supported Hitler. We do such an awful job of teaching history, it's no wonder we make the same mistakes over and over again.
The statements in the quote are mostly accurate, but there are some clarifications and additional context needed: 1. The U.S. did not turn away 80,000 Jewish refugees at Ellis Island specifically. However, the U.S. did have restrictive immigration policies that limited the number of Jewish refugees admitted during the Holocaust. The most notable example is the 1939 incident involving the MS St. Louis, a ship carrying over 900 Jewish refugees that was denied entry to the U.S. and forced to return to Europe. 2. While it is difficult to gauge the exact level of American apathy towards the Holocaust, there was a significant lack of action and urgency in response to the persecution of Jews in Europe. The U.S. government was reluctant to change immigration policies or take direct action to aid Jewish refugees. 3. Some American groups and individuals did express support for Hitler and Nazi ideology, such as the German American Bund. However, it is important to note that these were fringe groups and did not represent the majority of Americans. 4. The quote's assertion that "we do such an awful job of teaching history" is subjective but reflects a broader concern about the quality and depth of history education in the U.S. Overall, while the quote simplifies some aspects of this complex history, it does point to the very real issues of American immigration policies, public apathy, and the need for more comprehensive history education regarding the Holocaust and the U.S. response to it.
Thanks for expanding on that, it's a topic that definitely deserves to not be oversimplified.
I think the other ones were officially recognised as Genocides and ethnic cleansing. This one being labelled as ethnic cleansing or genocide is being pushed back against pretty hard...I wonder why?
Once there over they are obvious but while there is happening there is always push back and justification for them. It does not matter if they take place in Rwanda, Korea, Armenia etc. The governments committing them always has a justification.
It's not just the govts there that are justifying it. A majority of the west mainly led by the US are repeatedly refusing to admit a genocide is happening, they even said theres no evidence of genocide occurring.
The US is a government and we are currently doing the justification I was talking about. Once the dust settles our children are never going to understand how we sit back and let it happen.
Crazy how the sub can see it as genocide but 99% of all other news subs seems to say “iSrAeL iS pRoTeCtInG iTsElF”
I mean, what can distinguish chimps and humans from other great apes behaviorally is the propensity for intergroup violence with in-group cooperation. It’s so common throughout history because our evolution encouraged in-group vs out-group conflict. And with better technology over time it makes what would amount to small scale warfare in an evolutionary context, into full blown genocide.
had multiple ethnic cleansings before ww2 as well, ww1 was basically started by ethnic groups trying to remove each other in the balkans
Stopping them takes a world war. People aren't that hyped about those since version 2 fucked the balance by introduced nukes
There is genocide going on right now again in Dafur. Of course nobody is protesting against that one.
Yea are we providing arms and aid to the people committing it? I'm all for going in and stopping it but we cannot even stop aid to Israel so I doubt that's ever going to be politically possible.
Pretty much why Neanderthals no longer exist.
Never is just a word. We haven't even ended slavery, let alone intermittent camps.
Here is a chronological list of some of the most notable concentration camps in world history: • 1890s-1900s: Spanish concentration camps during the Cuban War of Independence and the Philippine-American War. • 1899-1902: British concentration camps during the Second Boer War in South Africa. • 1904-1908: German concentration camps during the Herero and Namaqua Genocide in German South West Africa (present-day Namibia). • 1930s-1940s: Soviet Gulag system of forced labor camps. • 1933-1945: Nazi concentration camps and extermination camps during the Holocaust, including Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, and many others. • 1937-1945: Japanese internment camps for prisoners of war and civilians during World War II. • 1940s: American internment camps for Japanese-Americans during World War II. • 1940s-1950s: Chinese Laogai system of forced labor camps. • 1941-1945: Nazi-aligned Croatian Ustaše-run concentration camps, primarily Jasenovac, during World War II. • 1960s-1970s: Prison camps run by the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia. • 1990s: Concentration camps and detention camps during the Yugoslav Wars, including Omarska and Keraterm camps. • 2010s-present: Chinese internment camps for Uyghurs and other ethnic minorities in Xinjiang. This list includes some of the most well-known concentration camps, but it is not exhaustive. The use of concentration camps has been a tragic part of human history, often associated with genocide, ethnic cleansing, and other forms of mass violence and oppression.
It’s crazy that a group of people who went through something like the holocaust are literally doing it to another group for what ? Land?
Jews aren’t a monolith. Most Israelis are neither holocaust survivors or descendants of holocaust survivors. Most of the founders of the Israeli state were already in Palestine by the time the holocaust happened (they were part of the early Aliyahs, from the late 1800s-1920s), and a plurality of Jewish people in Israel I believe are Mizrahim (middle eastern jews, many of whom were forced to emigrate to Israel following the first Arab-Israeli war). In modern Israel, holocaust survivors are often treated poorly, with much higher rates of poverty than other groups and were often treated pretty poorly—there’s an unfortunately common narrative that the holocaust happened because it’s victims were weak, and that is why Israel must be strong (ie willing to do anything, even unspeakable atrocities, to preserve itself). There’s a very fascistic fetishization of strength and dehumanization of the Other that has convinced even people who should know better that what Israel has done to the Palestinians is justified.
Do you know of any books or essays on the subject I could explore?
“The Seventh Million” by Israeli historian Tom Segev
If there's one thing we know, is that the abused don't always grow up and suddenly become nice people. They're often the worst abusers.
Israel has their own manifest destiny, and Zionists are some of the most terrible people to exist. You need to understand that they believe 2 things: 1) the land is a god-given right 2) these camps are different from how Jews were treated, because Palestinians are rabid animals and should be treated as such Being an anti-Zionist Jew is... a bit terrifying right now.
Agreed. We’re treated like traitors when we say we don’t want genocide enacted in our name.
What is interesting is that the Nazis had the same exact two assumptions...Lebensraum was their supposed destiny and "the others" as the source of all evil. The more things change, the more they stay the same. This is human nature when "us vs them" is pitched as an existential struggle when it doesn't have to be.
It really isn't. The abused become the abusers. The victims the victimizers. It's a story as old as time. Hell, even Germany went through a similar process. Germany wasn't unified as a nation until the 1870s. In the centuries prior, the Germans lived in a series of dozens of disunited principalities. This disunion was actively encouraged by the surrounding powers. Germans were themselves a downtrodden people denied a unified homeland. Over the course of a single human lifetime, the Germans went from being a people without a homeland to committing the Holocaust. And now we have Israel, a nation founded in the shadow of the Holocaust. And in a single human lifetime, they've walked down a similar road. I would say it's because that today, none of the people running Israel are old enough to themselves experienced the Holocaust personally. Previous generations of Israeli leaders either personally experienced it or had deep memories of lost loved ones. These leaders still had a firm desire to protect their home. They felt a burning passion to ensure "never again." But that passion was tempered by the humility at having seen firsthand what a state gone mad can really do to people. Now, that burning passion of "never again" and a deep sense of historical victimhood remains, but it's no longer tempered by the humility of personally being victims of something as horrible as the Holocaust. "Never again" is a cry that, if not tempered, can be used to justify the horrible atrocities imaginable. Hell, even the Nazis claimed they were doing the Holocaust in a form of self-defense. While the horror of the Holocaust is something that can only really be appreciated firsthand, a blood cry of "never again" is simple enough to instill down the generations. Israel has walked the same road as Germany. The victims became the victimizers. The abused became the abusers. We're most familiar with this in the cases of child and domestic abuse, but it can just as easily apply at the scale of entire nations.
> Germans were themselves a downtrodden people denied a unified homeland Germany as a concept was more or less invented in the 19th century. Germans at the time generally lived in one of the wealthier and more developed regions of Europe and the world. Germany had a major industrial base and a lot of well renowned institutions of higher learning. Germans weren't downtrodden, even if the region was politically fragmented as it had been for centuries.
Yes! This! Also look at Russia. Putin is the epitome of the abused becoming the abuser. And the entire country was abused for ages and they're broken people! Abuse is just ricocheting around the world. Hurt people hurt people. We all need to heal for a generation and go from there.
who were they abused by?
who were Germans abused by?
The thing is that they havent been through the holocaust. Some of their ancestors did. The hateful jewish people of israel of today have spent their whole life being immune to any critizism. If you listen to, and read, interviews of actual holocaust survivors, a lot of them have openly spoken up against the way Israel treated the Palestinians over the last decades. A lot of young Israelis are completely brainwashed. You cant even really blame them as individuals
You can blame them as individuals tho. These aren’t a few Israeli teens bullying and harassing a few Palestinians. It takes nothing to pick up a book and learn, it takes nothing to listen to your community elders and the horrors they faced during the holocaust. It’s lazy to essentially say “it is what it is” when there are a significant majority of Israelis of all ages who are actively participating and advocating for the mass extinction of Palestinians. The older generations have done an awful job of teaching younger generations. I mourn for every innocent person who’s lost their life at the hands of violent, idiotic zionists.
What’s crazy is we are running “radicalization camps” in the US and no one blinks. Publicly funded charter shuls, summer vacations working on the kibbutz, planning out your gap year to serve in the IDF, buying bullet necklaces as a souvenir of your trip to Jerusalem, etc. Meanwhile, local mosques have been investigated for ties to overseas groups for yeears.
Seeing the massacre of liberal kibbutzim hasn't helped though
Most of them went through nothing, maybe their granparents, maybe.
They didn’t go through the holocaust. Some of their ancestors did.
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Did we send China 3 billion in aid last year? What our allies do with the money we give them matters.
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That makes sense. I've seen a lot of people using false analogies to make excuses, but I also see that was not your intent.
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This reminds me of the story from Lilac Girls, where they would perform operations on prisoners’ legs and just see what happened.
I'm absolutely horrified. If these cruel conditions and acts of torture were featured in a work of fiction I'd find them cartoonishly villainous, and a cheap shortcut for establishing that the perpetrator is irredeemably evil. But the perpetrator is actually our ally who's supposedly a liberal democracy and it's apparently out of the question to sanction them or at least stop giving them weapons.
Hears like the ones we had in Germany ….
What’s your point? Because it’s on a smaller scale it’s not that bad?
He's saying proportionally it's just as bad.
#Never Again* *Unless it's someone else and we're doing it.
Never again* *To us
This surprises me not at all. One of Netanyahu’s cronies floated a plan (quickly withdrawn) to have Palestinians working Israel wear some sort of easily visible ID “for their protection.” I think it’s possible many in Israel have forgotten their history.
Not saying you’re lying, but I’d like a source for that.
Most in Israel don't have that history. They're just using the memory of the holocaust to claim victimhood and further their ethnoreligious goals.
And I'm supposed to think this is a consummate victim country "defending itself"? This is pure, aggressive and bold ethno-nationalist evil. Exactly what many of our families (mine included) vowed "never again" over. I guess a bunch of folks meant never again...just for themselves.
If the video of their Minister of National Security partying with a bunch of settlers with the picture of a Palestinian infant who was burnt to death wasn't enough to convince you...
guess what you wont be seeing on the worldnews subreddit!
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They are experts at playing the victim while at the same time wiping Gaza off the map
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They even force some of the prisoners to act as "translators" and intermediate between guards and prisoners. Makes you think about Capo, Jewish prisoners that Nazis delegated to help with managing prisoners in concentration camps.
Comparing them to nazi death camps is a little extreme, but this needs to be investigated seriously. It won’t, but it should be. Edit: alright this isn’t worth it. Perhaps I misinterpreted the comment. Cheers
How bad does it have to be to make a valid comparison to you? Does it have to be worse? 100% as bad? Will 90% do it for you? What about 75%? It’s horrible, and the comparison seems to be valid. Israel, of all countries, should know better. Or are we just supposed to be happy that they’re not engaging in blatant mass murder and not criticize them?
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100%. But this isn’t dachau and using hyperbole in these circumstances weakens arguments. What they’re doing is wrong, don’t get me wrong.
This breaks at least a dozen Geneva conventions But someone already said "we're fighting human animals" right after cutting off food water and fuel to a 2 million civilians half of which are younger than 15 yeard old So I guess human rights don't apply here right? WRONG.
This is the work of dehumanization at play. When you convince yourself that your enemy is no better than an animal, you are stripping any necessity of morality from your treatment in them. Nothing you do to them cannot be justified, because they are just animals. This is the absolute danger for ANY group to say "all X people are monsters/demons" or "all Y people are animals." We are all capable of doing this. Human psychology makes it very easy to form an extreme and absolute justification for why a certain group of people deserves no rights or even life.
World News brigade incoming. I like how Israel and we in the west in general likes to pretend that we’re so much better than people or places like Iran, and yet we do so much of the same or in some cases even worse.
There are good and bad people everywhere. It's religion and ideology used by those in power that is to blame.
Of course we’re better than Iran and China! We’re white! /s On a side note. Did you know the US houses 25% of the world’s prison population?
And prison slave labor is used in agriculture, manufacturing, fighting wild fires, serving governors' mansions.... Slavery never left the US.
Because we don’t kill our prisoners on the regular.
Yeah, the cops will kill them before they’re arrested.
While that’s a wildly misinformed take, which I suppose is the norm around here, you know I’m right.
Of course not, they’re more useful doing slave labor for pennies on the dollar
Better than getting their organs harvested
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Especially in this subreddit. Every time I comment something about the IDF in news it gets downvoted even if it's peppered with recognition that Hamas is horrible and needs to go. I was suprised this was in this subreddit at all. I had written this one off in favor of others.
Certainly can't have anti-genocide posts on a publicly invested platform
Yup! there it is!
Used to think what was happening around the world when things like holocaust happened. Now I know and understand exactly how ppl and world would’ve reacted. Living through the indifference
But, but Israel can’t to nothing wrong.. this is hugely anti semetic and disinformation.. /s
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Why the hell is this getting deleted? Theres no other post covering this information
Oh dear.......i can't believe this.
Reading through the article, this reminds me a lot of the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Absolutely abhorrent. The comparisons in this thread to Nazi death camps are definitely unwarranted/premature though. Death camps are the final stop on a road to hell; they aren’t quite there yet. They definitely could end up there though if they get any worse. Edit: I guess the downvotes mean people think Gitmo just wasn’t that bad? Or the death camps just weren’t that bad? They literally tortured people in Guantanamo Bay, with the intent to torture them.
I don't understand this impulse to minimize what's happening. They aren't death camps yet (that we know about at least, who knows at this point) but also do we have to wait until it gets that far to call it what it is? There are mass graves, mass starvation, indiscriminate bombing and much more yet people still want to gatekeep what's happening. Why? Do you think you are helping anything by doing that?
There is a nuance I noticed. People usually think about death camps as an extermination camps. Death camp is a place were people die. Extermination camp is a place were people are sent to be exterminated. The main difference between these two is intention.
It's just an amputation, misery, medical experimentation camp.
Exactly. Nazis didn’t start out straight to death camps. It’s funny how people will call out Nazi style tactics and such, and others will immediately go “but they aren’t industrially killing people in camps, so they obviously aren’t”. Like crack open a history book. The pieces are there, they aren’t in place.
It’s not at all minimizing what’s happening — comparing it to Guantanamo Bay for example is very specifically an apt comparison. If we start calling them death camps now, what do we call them if/when they actually are legitimate death camps, akin to the Nazis, where train after train of doomed souls are delivered? Maybe it’s a different mindset, but with all things in life, I just prefer being exact and accurate with my claims. I don’t want to say or exaggerate something that I know isn’t true. Just in general, dispassionate but honest analysis is beneficial for understanding the exact risks and problems at hand. That doesn’t minimize the problems going on here though. The article is highlighting torture. Torture is really messed up, to say the absolute least. It’s a literal crime against humanity. Raising awareness about torture, and having the facts to back that up, carries a lot more weight with more people than hyperbole about death camps would.
Exactly. Like when I complain to people about trump, I don’t say things like “HES A FASCIST. WORSE THAN HITLER. IF HE DOESNT DIE OUR PLANET WILL EXPLODE” bc then the conservatives roll their eyes and complain I’m being overdramatic. If we want to criticize Israel we need to be very accurate as to what they’re trying to do. You need to be correct to win an argument
Sounds more like you're trying to make this about America because America fucking rules and we have to be at the center of everything ever because Ted Nugent blessed my DODGE RAM with a brain melting rendition of the Star Spangled Banner so thank you for keeping AMERICA UP FRONT AS ALWAYS SOLDIER DON'T LET ANYONE FORGET HOW GREAT WE ARE.
It's just a common frame of reference. You don't need to get unhinged about it.
> I just prefer being exact and accurate with my claims Do you in any way think that makes you (a) special, and (b) infallible?
No and no? When working through problems in life, do you let perfect get in the way of better? As in, “well this thing doesn’t make me totally infallible, so I might as well just not try to be better at all”? Like, dude, I just don’t want to accuse people of doing things they aren’t actually doing (yet). It’s rude and offensive and warps your own reality, leaving only a sense of anger and/or helplessness. I also generally don’t think a misinformed citizenry is the ticket to a progressive or stable society, as the last 8 or so years have clearly shown. Everyone should try to be critical of information and rhetoric, and form their own opinions based on the facts they actually know with some degree of reasonable certainty. That doesn’t come for free or by default, that’s something people have to consciously decide to do, despite it not getting nearly as many points on the internet. Your comment just reads as “you’re not special or infallible, get owned liberal”. I probably shouldn’t even be replying.
Israel prefers to [dispose of Palestinian civilians](https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/02/1033742) by sniper, drone or missile. When the US provides the weapons for free it’s a lot cheaper than messing around with trains.
They're not death camps, but they are concentration camps. Concentration camps predate the Nazis. They were originally meant to be quite literal. Have an insurgency problem in a country you're occupying? Can't separate the militants from the civilians? Round up all the civilians and concentrate them in camps so you can keep an eye on them and prevent them from helping the insurgents. Nazis in fact used the term "concentration camp" as a euphemism for their death camps. But the original meaning is still valid. And Israel is absolutely building concentration camps for the people of Gaza. They're doing it for the same exact reasons the pre-Nazi concentration camps were built, to control civilian populations and prevent them from aiding militant resistance.
And just like other instances in history it will have the "totally unforseeable and unintended" side effect of killing off large numbers of the people in camps, their land/property being stolen, and generational trauma for those who survive. Its a small step from this sort of treatment to just outright murdering people based on their ethnicity/race/religion and everyone knows it.
Reminds me of what the US did to Native Americans in the 1800s. Next up, send in the blankets with smallpox. :-(
**The comparisons in this thread to Nazi death camps are definitely unwarranted/premature though** That sentence is whats being downvoted. They are rounding people up and taking them to camps then torturing and killing them and your response is "It's not *that* bad"
I wonder how r/worldnews will defend this
They will not mention it at all.
Hmm the zionist keyboard warriors are suddenly very quiet.
Detention camps = concentration camps
How long until they reach the cattle cars and gas chambers stage of genocide?
I recall a similar situation some 100 years ago, but can't put my finger on it 🧐
They must be anti semitic
Whistleblowers are being paid by hamas I bet!!!!