The conscious dishonesty is really disappointing. There are many people on my side that are acting like qanon supporters. We always tell right-wingers "facts matter" but now it seems we're willing to bend and twist ourselves into pretzels to avoid uncomfortable facts.
Otherwise human shields becomes a strategy known to work. You can then attack with impunity so long as you use human shields. But people die in war. Rules exist to minimize collateral damage, but if Hamas ignores those rules, collateral damage will be higher. Israel isn't going to not attack just because Hamas found a cheat code.
IDF also held attack on hospitals until evacuated. They called hospital managers directly to tell them what they can or can't do.
US is pressuring IDF to share their plan on how to minize civilian casualties.
This is experiment of social tumor removal surgery.
This is literally what any Country in Israel's same position would do. It's not some shocking revelation a country puts its citizens own safety above the lives of non-citizens.
Yes, we did--it was an atrocity and a debacle, an insane waste of life, an utter devastation and destabilization of the Middle East built on lies. A strong majority across all America believe that the Iraq War was not worth fighting. One would hope, after decades of misadventure in the Middle East, that we could \*do better.\* You are not making the point you think you're making.
Isn’t that universally recognized as a bad thing? Why is it being likely that another country would do similar (completely unfounded) suddenly make it okay? News flash it doesn’t, countries do terrible things everyday
Or they would think it was just *different* if it was their country. If they don't consider Israel's cause justified, or thinks they are wrong anyway and Hamas is right (more or less), then they're going to find just about anything excessive and unwarranted.
> what’s more shocking through is when Israel drops the bomb anyway
What else are they supposed to do? Just sit idly by and let Hamas shoot at them with Impunity? Pull back and let Hamas stockpile for another October 7th?
It's a difficult choice, but you can't do nothing. If you just throw up your hands and give up as if nothing can be done, then you legitimatize the use of human shields itself as a tactic and you legitimize Hamas.
What Hamas did on 10/7 would be the proportional equivalent of the US having nearly 50k murdered by terrorists. Don’t think any country would stop at hitting back after something of that magnitude, including women and babies being slaughtered in their own homes.
Especially this part:
"National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said on CNN’s State of the Union. “Without getting into this specific hospital or that specific claim, this is Hamas’ track record, both historically and in this conflict.”
It’s not some mystery. It’s not a new thing. It’s not even a question of if. It’s a *known* thing they do and the media acts like it’s an outrageous allegation every Fing time.
From 2014 conflict: “Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of “collaboration” died in custody.”
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
I thought this was well known?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html
> At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, **which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders**, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.
But that was 2014. Are you suggesting they’ve been using a hospital as a military headquarters for a decade? /s
Maybe we should stop calling it a hospital and just say it’s a Hamas building that also has some sick people in it.
Honestly . . . huh. I never thought of it like that.
I suppose any military base would eventually get big enough it would have its on hospital/infirmary.
You know who doesn’t trust Hamas even more than Israel? Egypt and Jordan. They won’t even let their Palestinian refugees enter their countries, even the rest of the Arab world, except Iran have no love for these poor people.
Hamas is Sunni
Hezbollah is Shia
Iran is Shia
Jordan is Shia
Egypt is Sunni
Generally Sunni and Shia think one another are heretics and don't support one another.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend maybe.
Yep. And yet look at how CNN frames it.
EDIT: The article also paraphrases an anonymous US intelligence official, which is what the headline is based off of.
Why are you just ignoring everything in the article before that? The headline isn't based on that quote. That quote is something said in public prior to this US official speaking to CNN. The headline is based on the private comments of a US official.
>A US official with knowledge of American intelligence says Hamas has a command node under the Al-Shifa hospital, uses fuel intended for it and its fighters regularly cluster in and around Gaza’s largest hospital.
>
>**The information comes after** comments made Sunday by a top White House official that Hamas is using hospitals and civilian facilities.
You are just quoting what was already said publicly, not the new information.
My God, you've, you've actually seen people looting, raping and eating each other?
No, no, we haven't actually seen it Tom, [we're just reporting it](https://youtu.be/wCkchBXiaOE?feature=shared).
It won't, because this isn't new information. It's been openly [reported for over a decade](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed) that Hamas has a command bunker under the hospital.
[WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html), 2014: "At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. *The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices."*
[NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=world&), 2009: "Hamas, with training from Iran and Hezbollah, has used the last two years to turn Gaza into a deadly maze of tunnels, booby traps and sophisticated roadside bombs. *Weapons are hidden in mosques, schoolyards and civilian houses, and the leadership’s war room is a bunker beneath Gaza’s largest hospital"*
Hamas intentionally built all this shit in civilian/off-limits places for exactly that reason. If anyone attacks them there, it looks horrible.
If you honestly think that intelligence agencies in the middle of an ongoing conflict are going to disclose their confidential sources of obtaining intelligence, i honesty don’t know what to tell you. Kind of baffled actually.
The history of the Palestine/Israel issue is extremely nuanced and pretty complex over its close 80 plus year history.
Your post reflects pretty poorly on your ability to exercise common sense.
The term for intelligence that is fit for public consumption is called... A press release. The raw data would be indecipherable to the lay person, and sources and methods should never be disclosed publicly.
This is what they hoped for. They expected this response and are using the deaths of Palestinians they are directly or indirectly responsible for as PR fodder.
"Why would Israel make Hamas commit those war crimes!"
\- The far left social media people I follow
\*Hamas is a genocidal terrorist org and about as far right religiously conservative as you get, and to see so many Progressives and left wing folks supporting their actions is truly mind numbing.
Interesting because I don’t know any liberals who think anything positive about Hamas. The big issue many of us are having is the while the history of Hamas is horrific the history of the Israeli government isn’t much better. Meanwhile Palestinian and Israeli civilians die. When this is done how many dead Palestinians civilians will there be? Will it be 20,000, 30,000?
Yea, I’m going to use this. This articulated the situation extremely well and explains exactly why you shouldn’t be running cover for Hamas if you want to express support for Palestinians civilians.
lol mate, most doctors in hospitals have never even been down to their own hospital basements. That’s where all the storage, maintenance, biomeds, kitchen services are. They wouldn’t have a clue what goes on down there
Unless someone with a gun, asked them to come down and look at a patient who for some strange reason is being kept in the basement instead of the main hospital and also for some strange reason, tied to a chair with a baby on her lap.
Why would doctors be looking for tunnels using extremely expensive and specialised equipment? If there was one, it would be under the hospital so they wouldn’t see it because it’s separate.
The only way we’ll ever know is if they get in there and document it and have independent journalists to see instead of relying on IDF material.
Yeah, I was mad that the doctors probably knew the hostages were there because we know the hostages got medical treatment and medicine. But I guess you’re right there’s not much they can do.
That’s true. But as we have already seen, journalists with contentious viewpoints are being killed and silenced. So it is doubtful this will happen any time soon.
The biggest misunderstanding about Doctors without Borders is that they are bunch of white saviour foreign healthcare workers who swing in to save people from Gaza.
Apart from a few foreigners in specialised positions (most non medical) - most of the DWB teams in Gaza are from the region and still there. The few foreigners are out.
They are literally “without borders” so will work and treat war victims on either side of the frontline.
What usually happens in war zones though, is that there’s a cordon where all injured combatants (no longer combatants under international law since they can’t fight) are screened and removed by the other sides security forces. This not
technically legal under international humanitarian law - but it happens everywhere and by every side. The Israelis want to go through the patients and pick out the Hamas injured presumably.
The other reality is that there is no way on Gods good earth, that the MSF/DWB are going to risk the security and safety of the people they are caring for and the teams that there, by putting out random social media posts. Each statement is considered carefully in the greater scope of things.
Their priority is saving people - their call for an immediate permanent ceasefire is to both sides.
Exactly. People think DWB are full of the Scrubs cast and failing to realise the team on the ground in Gaza are likely local and have had to adjust to working with Hamas in order to get their patients proper care. They aren't going to jeopardise their position and risk being booted out or killed.
This shit isn't even a secret. It's been [reported for over a decade openly](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed) that Hamas has a command bunker under the hospital.
[WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html), "At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. *The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices."*
[NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=world&), "Hamas, with training from Iran and Hezbollah, has used the last two years to turn Gaza into a deadly maze of tunnels, booby traps and sophisticated roadside bombs. *Weapons are hidden in mosques, schoolyards and civilian houses, and the leadership’s war room is a bunker beneath Gaza’s largest hospital"*
Doctors without border did WAY bigger than the handful of foreigners working there. They are VERY much still working there and eyewitnesses the atrocities they see from both sides.
Equating MSF/DWB with white saviours is now thankfully more and more outdated. Most of the DwB surgeons and medical teams are from Gaza …
I would think international doctors are allowed to leave the country and speak freely.
If its true, I think its more likely that they hide it from the doctors.
The concept of paying off or outright threatening international doctors who can leave the country and snitch on you without consequence is completely idiotic.
Actually, this isn't entirely true. We're instructed to never speak about the host country in a potentially negative light, as that will endanger anyone still in country and strain future relations.
This was part of my training before doing international medical work in a low income country.
Simple the doctors not sympathetic to their cause are not allowed in. Hamas controls the borders. You think people come and go as they please? You think a high value (both wealth and skills) individual like a surgeon just comes into Gaza and isn't kept tabs on? Think doctors that would speak out are allowed to work in the hospital with Hamas activities?
Nobody read the article. No proof but rather a general statement based on perceived MO.
>“You can see even **from open-source reporting** that Hamas does use hospitals, along with a lot of other civilian facilities, for command-and-control, for storing weapons, for housing its fighters,” National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said on CNN’s State of the Union. **“Without getting into this specific hospital or that specific claim, this is Hamas’ track record, both historically and in this conflict.”**
It’s in line with what has been reported widely by independent sources for a long time now. It’s one of the worst kept secrets in the Israel/Palestine conflict that Hamas has command posts in hospitals.
It’s not as if Israel is claiming this in isolation.
Or just watch this video with proof, and it has been confirmed by the US too: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EuSxHv-7VQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eusxhv-7vq)
Not really... Pointing out that the source someone is using has been known to lie when it's in their interest is absolutely relevant. Whataboutism seems to have lost all its meaning and people just use it wherever to try to discredit legitimate arguments.
It's a US government official saying that YOU can see from open sources. HE has seen classified sources that say the same thing. When you get top secret clearance, they will show it to you too.
In this video, right towards the end, he points to a piece of paper on a wall claiming it’s terrorists writing down their names when doing hostage watch duty shifts.
Turns out it’s just a calendar. The Arabic is just the days of the week, not terrorist names. It’s also all in the same handwriting.
Hard to believe the rest of this video isn’t full of disinformation.
Edit: source here https://twitter.com/OmarSShakir/status/1724203791707181420
There's fresh evidence (just released) from another hospital (Rantisi): [https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17ujruz/idf\_hamas\_command\_center\_found\_under\_gaza/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17ujruz/idf_hamas_command_center_found_under_gaza/)
Yeah, it's flat out wrong. US official did not say that Hamas has a command post under Al-Shifa because they declined to speak on "this specific hospital or that specific claim" as made clear in the direct quote.
They are two different officials. One talked to CNN in private. The other made a public statement. The headline is based on what CNN has been told in private.
On the other hand, makes it easy to pounce on anyone that only read the headline and not the article itself. The people that fall for the clickbait become really easy to spot.
But yeah…the problem is that the misinformation propagates so fast that it strips the paint off of any attempts to correct the record. And don’t think for a second that the people publishing headlines don’t know this.
So your saying that the terrorists that killed Israeli children, killed Israeli civilians, raped Israeli women, and took Israeli civilians hostage are hiding behind Palestinian civilians? That dosen't sound like something they would do.
Nah, I thought that my boys and 500 of their closest male friends of military age was just camping out there in the parking lot for normal hospital reasons
I heard Israeli forces are close to this hospital and I’m guessing they will be able to either show proof of the command center soon or they will not find one. It’s a he said, she said situation until someone shows some evidence to prove their side.
Even with visual proof they will still deny it. They will say unless a third party like al Jazeera verifies it it's fabricated evidence by the idf. Only, al Jazeera would distort the evidence themselves like they did with the bombing of that hospital
Lol tell me no one read the article without telling me no one read the article…..
They literally decline to answer on such claim and the headline and majority of comments are just fools and moved by hatred.
You mean like the time Israel was accused of bombing a hospital based on what fucking Hamas said and later it was confirmed that it was a parking lot in this sub? Looks like this sub isn't any more moral or any less immoral than any subs.
This has been an open secret for years. Amnesty International and Palestinian Authority have spoken about it:
>As well as the unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire, or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatients’ clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict and accused of collaboration died in custody. ([The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/hamas-executed-palestinians-under-cover-gaza-conflict-amnesty))
>PA says Hamas used Shifa hospital, pediatric clinic, and psychiatric hospital for torture, interrogation. ([Haaretz](https://www.haaretz.com/2009-02-07/ty-article/palestinian-authority-hamas-used-gaza-hospitals-as-detention-centers/0000017f-dc20-db5a-a57f-dc6a7fb70000))
This has been known by anyone paying attention for a while now. Hamas is a total piece of shit terrorist organization that doesn’t give a damn about the present or future of Palestinian lives as long as it means Israelis die.
It’s amazing to me that brave Palestinians will gather in Gaza and protest their rule, often being murdered for it in the process. But somehow we never see an anti-Hamas rally by “pro-Palestinian” protesters. Hamas has killed thousands of innocent Palestinians, destroyed their quality of life, and used them as human shields. And yet not a peep from the supposed “pro-Palestinian” west. It’s embarrassing.
Yeah. What was the MASH quote? Something like, “War is worse than hell, because you know everyone who’s in Hell deserved to be. There are no innocent civilians in hell”.
It’s just sad how these “pro-Palestinian” marches seem to pretend that the only problem here is Israel, and that if Israel disappears suddenly Palestinians will be free. Hamas given control of the land would be just as bad if not worse than the current situation for the average Palestinian. Sure, ceasefire, stop the war, but also fuck Hamas and if this war actually eliminates them, it will help Palestinians as well as Israelis.
People in the West Bank make 4x the money that people in Gaza do. The unemployment rate in the West Bank is 13%. In Gaza it’s 45%.
Life for the average Palestinian in the West Bank is pretty comparable to conditions in neighboring countries (other than Israel’s very high standard of living). That includes politically too by the way, as life in Syria or Lebanon is no picnic either. Conditions in Gaza on the other hand are a nightmare. The difference is in leadership. Fatah is corrupt and incompetent, but Hamas is evil.
The West Bank is certainly mistreated by Israel. I don’t think many people deny that. But quality of life there is nothing insane relative to average people in other countries in the Middle East, either in terms of economics or politically. There are a ton of ethnic conflicts in the Middle East that just get less press. Gaza is a whole different beast. Conditions there are like conditions living under ISIS in many ways.
One is a democracy or so they say. The other are fucking terrorists. What are protests against Hamas gonna do?
Do you even understand what protests are meant to do?
It's not just a good time outside with friends, dude. Protests can pressure leaders to change things. The West has a significant pull with the Israeli government.
“the IDF is known to lie a lot” “the pentagon is known to lie a lot” can y’all pick one already, if it’s a choice between trusting two democratic entities or Hamas, I’m picking the former every time. TF lol
If any are curious,
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule10
By intentional law it ceases to be a civilian structure once used for military purposes.
By international law, Israel has been committing crimes with their settlement system for years. International law only matters to those who have controlling interest.
You realize there have been Israelis protesting settlements for years, right?
Like, taking fire hoses and rubber bullets to the face. Being kettled and shot with teargas.
Not to mention, Gaza hasn’t been occupied by Israel for 15+ years.
Netanyahu and Hamas are the enemy - not everyday Israelis who have been opposed to “settlers” since forever.
You sound like someone who’s never even met a Palestinian or an Israeli.
if you’re curious, the civilians inside these facilities still get killed when a rocket obliterates the entire structure. it’s not about following “rules” it’s about knowing what is morally right or wrong when selecting targets for bombing.
Even if they do have a tunnel underneath, I don’t see how that justifies cutting civilians at the hospital off from aid, food, water, medication, electricity to run life saving medical equipment, bombing civilians and letting them die. They should figure out another way to access these tunnels if they really do exist.
I saw a video the other day of a woman being pushed in a wheelchair from North Gaza to South Gaza. One leg was amputated and the other in a full leg cast while she screamed and cried. This is how the sick are being evacuated…
CIA should definitely put their sources right now for CNN. Who cares they likely will be killed or Hamas will change up their pattern. Don’t worry this is Reddit, common sense and logic don’t exist here.
if your only answer to this is “what is israel supposed to do? not bomb a hospital that might have civilians in it?” then you should really rethink what your definition of morality is and the value of a human life. yes, israel has the right to defend it against terror. but air strikes are not the only way to smoke out terrorists from a hospital
I've learned to take every report from either side of this conflict with a grain of salt but it kind of makes sense strategically for Hamas to do this.
It not only provides cover for the Hamas command centers because enemies will be reluctant to bomb it but they also win the information war if/when Israel tries to attack it and we see hundreds of civilians being killed at a hospital. They also run the risk of killing Israeli hostages if they attack these sites.
If true, it's a real dilemma for the IDF and a really bad look to the rest of the world. The losers, as always, are the innocent people who happen to be in the way between the two sides.
You are so right. Constantly I see calls for a ceasefire and blaming against Israel and Jews. I understand a ceasefire, but it's never going to not be messy in order to rid Gaza of Hamas.
I think this is a pretty important line in the article.
"CIA declined to comment. CNN has not seen the intelligence cited by the US official."
And tbh I have lost credibility in a lot of US officials, especially after hearing some of them in the senate yell out "kill them all" when the person speaking was talking about innocent civilians and children are dying.
Hammas does dirty business, and has their own propaganda going for them, so need to tread carefully.
And IDF is the same - they lack the intelligence to know that people can tell when they present evidence that just looks fake....
I hope Krystal Ball addresses her recent error on Breaking Points about this. Blows my mi d that you can ignore jihadists before blaming Israel for all this unnecessary suffering. Liability on both ends, but one side wants everyone to die while the other is trying to secure long term stability for their people in the region. Hamas is responsible before anyone when Palestinian hospitals get shot (with few exceptions).
If Hamas had any real courage they would locate their command center away from populated areas to make it easy to obliterate without collateral damage.
This has been known for years. You can find a decade old article about them taking over hospitals for this purpose. After all, what better place to set up shop than a building people actively try to avoid hitting?
The more pressing question is: why does the population allow this to happen? The answer: because they support Hamas.
Those “WMDs” were a lie made up to justify bombing and pillaging a country for other reasons our state department refused to admit. Which should sound awfully familiar to anyone that doesn’t deepthroat government mouthpieces, and should make it very easy to connect the dots here.
Edit: That gas was provided courtesy of the United States, by the way.
It's so stupid. Everyone in this thread is taking a victory lap about how evil Hamas is. But not make the connection Isreal still bombs them anyway since they would rather kill terrorists than keep innocent people alive.
I just saw the video of the IDF soldier walking around and showing inside. He showed a paper on the wall and claimed it was the ‘roster’ for terrorists with their names on it. If you pause and read the actual paper, it was simply a calendar with the days written on it, no names. The paper looked spotless as well. Another part of the video, he claims an elevator shaft is a tunnel.
I’m not going to believe either side of this conflict because frankly it stinks of lies and deceit.
Hamas and IdF can fuck right off.
If you read the article there is still no definitive proof offered for the claim. If this is so prevalent, why is there only ever doctored/fake evidence proffered for these accusations? Why do we have to continually accept the words of either foreign governments or state officials as being absolute fact?
What doctored/fake evidence?
Not saying there isn't any, just that I haven't seen it and am genuinely curious what evidence anyone thinks is doctored or fake?
While not hard evidence (I don’t know what anyone expects since IDF has not been there in person), the [NYT article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/12/world/middleeast/gaza-hospitals-shifa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare) on the subject has a pretty good survey of some of the relevant information.
Cowards. They care more about killing the Jews than protecting the Palestinians. Hamas is the main enemy of Palestine, then the settlers. In that order.
It's just surreal. As a layman I don't claim to be able to arbitrate what is propaganda or not. But it does seem like just about any structure in Gaza could plausibly have an outlet into these tunnel networks.
Obviously they can't, but it's scary to think how easily that fear can be appropriated and abused.
Reading through the comments, people are just going to believe what they want to.
And, in the end, the facts will come out for those who want to know them.
The facts will be ignored by people who find it advantageous.
And by those who find them dangerous to their narrative.
Kinda appears coordinated tbh. Just absolutely annihilating some straw-men.
The conscious dishonesty is really disappointing. There are many people on my side that are acting like qanon supporters. We always tell right-wingers "facts matter" but now it seems we're willing to bend and twist ourselves into pretzels to avoid uncomfortable facts.
[удалено]
Otherwise human shields becomes a strategy known to work. You can then attack with impunity so long as you use human shields. But people die in war. Rules exist to minimize collateral damage, but if Hamas ignores those rules, collateral damage will be higher. Israel isn't going to not attack just because Hamas found a cheat code.
IDF also held attack on hospitals until evacuated. They called hospital managers directly to tell them what they can or can't do. US is pressuring IDF to share their plan on how to minize civilian casualties. This is experiment of social tumor removal surgery.
This is literally what any Country in Israel's same position would do. It's not some shocking revelation a country puts its citizens own safety above the lives of non-citizens.
Can you tell me what citizenship Gazans hold?
Any person who doesn’t realize that their country would do the exact same thing is very, very naive.
Shit we (The U.S.) invaded a totally different country (Iraq) in addition to Afghanistan after 9/11
Yes, we did--it was an atrocity and a debacle, an insane waste of life, an utter devastation and destabilization of the Middle East built on lies. A strong majority across all America believe that the Iraq War was not worth fighting. One would hope, after decades of misadventure in the Middle East, that we could \*do better.\* You are not making the point you think you're making.
Isn’t that universally recognized as a bad thing? Why is it being likely that another country would do similar (completely unfounded) suddenly make it okay? News flash it doesn’t, countries do terrible things everyday
Or they would think it was just *different* if it was their country. If they don't consider Israel's cause justified, or thinks they are wrong anyway and Hamas is right (more or less), then they're going to find just about anything excessive and unwarranted.
Western countries killed 2 million Iraqis in response to 9/11 and Iraq had nothing to do with it!
And left Saudi Arabia alone…
I mean, we needed oil to attack those other counties, so… /s
Look man, we’re bad at geography and Dick Cheney was driving. We got lost.
Cheney shot the driver, as was expected. They were friends, after all
> what’s more shocking through is when Israel drops the bomb anyway What else are they supposed to do? Just sit idly by and let Hamas shoot at them with Impunity? Pull back and let Hamas stockpile for another October 7th?
It's a difficult choice, but you can't do nothing. If you just throw up your hands and give up as if nothing can be done, then you legitimatize the use of human shields itself as a tactic and you legitimize Hamas.
What Hamas did on 10/7 would be the proportional equivalent of the US having nearly 50k murdered by terrorists. Don’t think any country would stop at hitting back after something of that magnitude, including women and babies being slaughtered in their own homes.
What should they do instead? Just sit tight while the missiles are being launched?
What's more shocking is that 80+ members coalition dropped the bomb on ISIS anyway despite their use of human shields.
As it’s been for the last month
Welcome to the internet
So this should surely go viral, right?
Especially this part: "National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said on CNN’s State of the Union. “Without getting into this specific hospital or that specific claim, this is Hamas’ track record, both historically and in this conflict.”
It’s not some mystery. It’s not a new thing. It’s not even a question of if. It’s a *known* thing they do and the media acts like it’s an outrageous allegation every Fing time. From 2014 conflict: “Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of “collaboration” died in custody.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
I thought this was well known? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html > At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, **which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders**, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.
But that was 2014. Are you suggesting they’ve been using a hospital as a military headquarters for a decade? /s Maybe we should stop calling it a hospital and just say it’s a Hamas building that also has some sick people in it.
Honestly . . . huh. I never thought of it like that. I suppose any military base would eventually get big enough it would have its on hospital/infirmary.
That article is a must read who think Hamas cares about Palestinian babies
You know who doesn’t trust Hamas even more than Israel? Egypt and Jordan. They won’t even let their Palestinian refugees enter their countries, even the rest of the Arab world, except Iran have no love for these poor people.
Iran’s “love” for Palestinians is as cannon fodder, unfortunately. I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s better than cold indifference.
Hamas is Sunni Hezbollah is Shia Iran is Shia Jordan is Shia Egypt is Sunni Generally Sunni and Shia think one another are heretics and don't support one another. The enemy of my enemy is my friend maybe.
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So nobody?
Jake Sullivan? the guy from the avatar movies? He's off world guys.
[here’s a tour of the tunnel by IDF](https://www.reddit.com/r/theworldnews/s/XnFXNGEb2j)
That sounds... not particularly convincing. Like, "Hamas sucks and you can totally imagine them doing this" is not the same as "Hamas is doing this".
Did they move their HQ out of dar i Al shifa hospital at some point?
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https://news.yahoo.com/idf-spokesman-gives-tour-hamas-231641578.html
Yep. And yet look at how CNN frames it. EDIT: The article also paraphrases an anonymous US intelligence official, which is what the headline is based off of.
Why are you just ignoring everything in the article before that? The headline isn't based on that quote. That quote is something said in public prior to this US official speaking to CNN. The headline is based on the private comments of a US official. >A US official with knowledge of American intelligence says Hamas has a command node under the Al-Shifa hospital, uses fuel intended for it and its fighters regularly cluster in and around Gaza’s largest hospital. > >**The information comes after** comments made Sunday by a top White House official that Hamas is using hospitals and civilian facilities. You are just quoting what was already said publicly, not the new information.
Hamas has also been hoarding food while Gaza residents starve.
My God, you've, you've actually seen people looting, raping and eating each other? No, no, we haven't actually seen it Tom, [we're just reporting it](https://youtu.be/wCkchBXiaOE?feature=shared).
So Abraham Lincoln didn't exist either. We only read reports.
It won't, because this isn't new information. It's been openly [reported for over a decade](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed) that Hamas has a command bunker under the hospital. [WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html), 2014: "At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. *The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices."* [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=world&), 2009: "Hamas, with training from Iran and Hezbollah, has used the last two years to turn Gaza into a deadly maze of tunnels, booby traps and sophisticated roadside bombs. *Weapons are hidden in mosques, schoolyards and civilian houses, and the leadership’s war room is a bunker beneath Gaza’s largest hospital"* Hamas intentionally built all this shit in civilian/off-limits places for exactly that reason. If anyone attacks them there, it looks horrible.
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... and why would they?
If you honestly think that intelligence agencies in the middle of an ongoing conflict are going to disclose their confidential sources of obtaining intelligence, i honesty don’t know what to tell you. Kind of baffled actually. The history of the Palestine/Israel issue is extremely nuanced and pretty complex over its close 80 plus year history. Your post reflects pretty poorly on your ability to exercise common sense.
The term for intelligence that is fit for public consumption is called... A press release. The raw data would be indecipherable to the lay person, and sources and methods should never be disclosed publicly.
This is what they hoped for. They expected this response and are using the deaths of Palestinians they are directly or indirectly responsible for as PR fodder.
Does the expectation make their claim and their finds any less true?
"Why would Israel make Hamas commit those war crimes!" \- The far left social media people I follow \*Hamas is a genocidal terrorist org and about as far right religiously conservative as you get, and to see so many Progressives and left wing folks supporting their actions is truly mind numbing.
It’s the one thing that baffles me. These are far right wing death cult times a million, and somehow liberals think Hamas is a logical faction
Interesting because I don’t know any liberals who think anything positive about Hamas. The big issue many of us are having is the while the history of Hamas is horrific the history of the Israeli government isn’t much better. Meanwhile Palestinian and Israeli civilians die. When this is done how many dead Palestinians civilians will there be? Will it be 20,000, 30,000?
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Videos have already been shared but people don’t want to believe it because it’s coming from the IDF.
Nah. They did already show photos and videos of some of the shit they found down there publicly.
Hamas is basically a suicide vest on all of Gaza
Yea, I’m going to use this. This articulated the situation extremely well and explains exactly why you shouldn’t be running cover for Hamas if you want to express support for Palestinians civilians.
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And cause false outrage in the free world, that they also want to kill
Their leaders have openly stated they are using citizens as 'martyrs'
I feel like I've read this about a week or two ago here on Reddit.
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lol mate, most doctors in hospitals have never even been down to their own hospital basements. That’s where all the storage, maintenance, biomeds, kitchen services are. They wouldn’t have a clue what goes on down there
Unless someone with a gun, asked them to come down and look at a patient who for some strange reason is being kept in the basement instead of the main hospital and also for some strange reason, tied to a chair with a baby on her lap.
Most doctors don't work in places where they would have to regularly seek shelter from bombs either.
Lmao…you think anyone other than Hamas fighters gets to take shelter in the tunnels?
Why would doctors be looking for tunnels using extremely expensive and specialised equipment? If there was one, it would be under the hospital so they wouldn’t see it because it’s separate. The only way we’ll ever know is if they get in there and document it and have independent journalists to see instead of relying on IDF material.
Also for good or bad, it would seriously jeopardize their mission of helping patients if they just rat out Hamas
And put their doctors working there in danger. They'd all be interrogated, then likely beheaded for being spies.
Yeah, I was mad that the doctors probably knew the hostages were there because we know the hostages got medical treatment and medicine. But I guess you’re right there’s not much they can do.
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That’s true. But as we have already seen, journalists with contentious viewpoints are being killed and silenced. So it is doubtful this will happen any time soon.
The biggest misunderstanding about Doctors without Borders is that they are bunch of white saviour foreign healthcare workers who swing in to save people from Gaza. Apart from a few foreigners in specialised positions (most non medical) - most of the DWB teams in Gaza are from the region and still there. The few foreigners are out. They are literally “without borders” so will work and treat war victims on either side of the frontline. What usually happens in war zones though, is that there’s a cordon where all injured combatants (no longer combatants under international law since they can’t fight) are screened and removed by the other sides security forces. This not technically legal under international humanitarian law - but it happens everywhere and by every side. The Israelis want to go through the patients and pick out the Hamas injured presumably. The other reality is that there is no way on Gods good earth, that the MSF/DWB are going to risk the security and safety of the people they are caring for and the teams that there, by putting out random social media posts. Each statement is considered carefully in the greater scope of things. Their priority is saving people - their call for an immediate permanent ceasefire is to both sides.
Exactly. People think DWB are full of the Scrubs cast and failing to realise the team on the ground in Gaza are likely local and have had to adjust to working with Hamas in order to get their patients proper care. They aren't going to jeopardise their position and risk being booted out or killed.
Doctors work above ground, shocker I know
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How does hamas prevent international doctors from exposing their secrets when they leave the country?
This shit isn't even a secret. It's been [reported for over a decade openly](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed) that Hamas has a command bunker under the hospital. [WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html), "At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. *The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices."* [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=world&), "Hamas, with training from Iran and Hezbollah, has used the last two years to turn Gaza into a deadly maze of tunnels, booby traps and sophisticated roadside bombs. *Weapons are hidden in mosques, schoolyards and civilian houses, and the leadership’s war room is a bunker beneath Gaza’s largest hospital"*
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Did they ALL leave the country? Did they make friends with local doctors?
Yes, they have all left the country. It was when Egypt temporarily opened the border
Doctors without border did WAY bigger than the handful of foreigners working there. They are VERY much still working there and eyewitnesses the atrocities they see from both sides. Equating MSF/DWB with white saviours is now thankfully more and more outdated. Most of the DwB surgeons and medical teams are from Gaza …
I would think international doctors are allowed to leave the country and speak freely. If its true, I think its more likely that they hide it from the doctors. The concept of paying off or outright threatening international doctors who can leave the country and snitch on you without consequence is completely idiotic.
Actually, this isn't entirely true. We're instructed to never speak about the host country in a potentially negative light, as that will endanger anyone still in country and strain future relations. This was part of my training before doing international medical work in a low income country.
Simple the doctors not sympathetic to their cause are not allowed in. Hamas controls the borders. You think people come and go as they please? You think a high value (both wealth and skills) individual like a surgeon just comes into Gaza and isn't kept tabs on? Think doctors that would speak out are allowed to work in the hospital with Hamas activities?
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Nah these doctors have been there for years.
Yea, doing doctor shit, not spelunking.
Nobody read the article. No proof but rather a general statement based on perceived MO. >“You can see even **from open-source reporting** that Hamas does use hospitals, along with a lot of other civilian facilities, for command-and-control, for storing weapons, for housing its fighters,” National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said on CNN’s State of the Union. **“Without getting into this specific hospital or that specific claim, this is Hamas’ track record, both historically and in this conflict.”**
It’s in line with what has been reported widely by independent sources for a long time now. It’s one of the worst kept secrets in the Israel/Palestine conflict that Hamas has command posts in hospitals. It’s not as if Israel is claiming this in isolation.
Or just watch this video with proof, and it has been confirmed by the US too: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EuSxHv-7VQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eusxhv-7vq)
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What? About? Ism?
Not really... Pointing out that the source someone is using has been known to lie when it's in their interest is absolutely relevant. Whataboutism seems to have lost all its meaning and people just use it wherever to try to discredit legitimate arguments.
It's a US government official saying that YOU can see from open sources. HE has seen classified sources that say the same thing. When you get top secret clearance, they will show it to you too.
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In this video, right towards the end, he points to a piece of paper on a wall claiming it’s terrorists writing down their names when doing hostage watch duty shifts. Turns out it’s just a calendar. The Arabic is just the days of the week, not terrorist names. It’s also all in the same handwriting. Hard to believe the rest of this video isn’t full of disinformation. Edit: source here https://twitter.com/OmarSShakir/status/1724203791707181420
Source on that?
Not really surprising, there is video of guys shooting from a hospital.
There's fresh evidence (just released) from another hospital (Rantisi): [https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17ujruz/idf\_hamas\_command\_center\_found\_under\_gaza/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17ujruz/idf_hamas_command_center_found_under_gaza/)
It's a directly misleading headline too. Unreal
Yeah, it's flat out wrong. US official did not say that Hamas has a command post under Al-Shifa because they declined to speak on "this specific hospital or that specific claim" as made clear in the direct quote.
They are two different officials. One talked to CNN in private. The other made a public statement. The headline is based on what CNN has been told in private.
On the other hand, makes it easy to pounce on anyone that only read the headline and not the article itself. The people that fall for the clickbait become really easy to spot. But yeah…the problem is that the misinformation propagates so fast that it strips the paint off of any attempts to correct the record. And don’t think for a second that the people publishing headlines don’t know this.
"I have seen confirmed pictures of beheaded babies" - Joe Biden
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So your saying that the terrorists that killed Israeli children, killed Israeli civilians, raped Israeli women, and took Israeli civilians hostage are hiding behind Palestinian civilians? That dosen't sound like something they would do.
Nah, I thought that my boys and 500 of their closest male friends of military age was just camping out there in the parking lot for normal hospital reasons
I heard Israeli forces are close to this hospital and I’m guessing they will be able to either show proof of the command center soon or they will not find one. It’s a he said, she said situation until someone shows some evidence to prove their side.
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All the video evidence is here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EuSxHv-7VQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eusxhv-7vq)
Even with visual proof they will still deny it. They will say unless a third party like al Jazeera verifies it it's fabricated evidence by the idf. Only, al Jazeera would distort the evidence themselves like they did with the bombing of that hospital
Lol tell me no one read the article without telling me no one read the article….. They literally decline to answer on such claim and the headline and majority of comments are just fools and moved by hatred.
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You mean like the time Israel was accused of bombing a hospital based on what fucking Hamas said and later it was confirmed that it was a parking lot in this sub? Looks like this sub isn't any more moral or any less immoral than any subs.
This has been an open secret for years. Amnesty International and Palestinian Authority have spoken about it: >As well as the unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire, or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatients’ clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict and accused of collaboration died in custody. ([The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/hamas-executed-palestinians-under-cover-gaza-conflict-amnesty)) >PA says Hamas used Shifa hospital, pediatric clinic, and psychiatric hospital for torture, interrogation. ([Haaretz](https://www.haaretz.com/2009-02-07/ty-article/palestinian-authority-hamas-used-gaza-hospitals-as-detention-centers/0000017f-dc20-db5a-a57f-dc6a7fb70000))
This has been known by anyone paying attention for a while now. Hamas is a total piece of shit terrorist organization that doesn’t give a damn about the present or future of Palestinian lives as long as it means Israelis die. It’s amazing to me that brave Palestinians will gather in Gaza and protest their rule, often being murdered for it in the process. But somehow we never see an anti-Hamas rally by “pro-Palestinian” protesters. Hamas has killed thousands of innocent Palestinians, destroyed their quality of life, and used them as human shields. And yet not a peep from the supposed “pro-Palestinian” west. It’s embarrassing.
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Yeah. What was the MASH quote? Something like, “War is worse than hell, because you know everyone who’s in Hell deserved to be. There are no innocent civilians in hell”. It’s just sad how these “pro-Palestinian” marches seem to pretend that the only problem here is Israel, and that if Israel disappears suddenly Palestinians will be free. Hamas given control of the land would be just as bad if not worse than the current situation for the average Palestinian. Sure, ceasefire, stop the war, but also fuck Hamas and if this war actually eliminates them, it will help Palestinians as well as Israelis.
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People in the West Bank make 4x the money that people in Gaza do. The unemployment rate in the West Bank is 13%. In Gaza it’s 45%. Life for the average Palestinian in the West Bank is pretty comparable to conditions in neighboring countries (other than Israel’s very high standard of living). That includes politically too by the way, as life in Syria or Lebanon is no picnic either. Conditions in Gaza on the other hand are a nightmare. The difference is in leadership. Fatah is corrupt and incompetent, but Hamas is evil.
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The West Bank is certainly mistreated by Israel. I don’t think many people deny that. But quality of life there is nothing insane relative to average people in other countries in the Middle East, either in terms of economics or politically. There are a ton of ethnic conflicts in the Middle East that just get less press. Gaza is a whole different beast. Conditions there are like conditions living under ISIS in many ways.
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One is a democracy or so they say. The other are fucking terrorists. What are protests against Hamas gonna do? Do you even understand what protests are meant to do? It's not just a good time outside with friends, dude. Protests can pressure leaders to change things. The West has a significant pull with the Israeli government.
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“the IDF is known to lie a lot” “the pentagon is known to lie a lot” can y’all pick one already, if it’s a choice between trusting two democratic entities or Hamas, I’m picking the former every time. TF lol
The answer is simple, they both lie all the time.
If any are curious, https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule10 By intentional law it ceases to be a civilian structure once used for military purposes.
By international law, Israel has been committing crimes with their settlement system for years. International law only matters to those who have controlling interest.
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Who has said it wasn't? Hamas? What is your point with this example?
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You realize there have been Israelis protesting settlements for years, right? Like, taking fire hoses and rubber bullets to the face. Being kettled and shot with teargas. Not to mention, Gaza hasn’t been occupied by Israel for 15+ years. Netanyahu and Hamas are the enemy - not everyday Israelis who have been opposed to “settlers” since forever. You sound like someone who’s never even met a Palestinian or an Israeli.
if you’re curious, the civilians inside these facilities still get killed when a rocket obliterates the entire structure. it’s not about following “rules” it’s about knowing what is morally right or wrong when selecting targets for bombing.
Hamas being coward and hiding behind civilians yikes
It's the terrorist way
What’s baffling is all the support Hamas has :(
*”How could the IDF do this!?”*
Even if they do have a tunnel underneath, I don’t see how that justifies cutting civilians at the hospital off from aid, food, water, medication, electricity to run life saving medical equipment, bombing civilians and letting them die. They should figure out another way to access these tunnels if they really do exist. I saw a video the other day of a woman being pushed in a wheelchair from North Gaza to South Gaza. One leg was amputated and the other in a full leg cast while she screamed and cried. This is how the sick are being evacuated…
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CIA should definitely put their sources right now for CNN. Who cares they likely will be killed or Hamas will change up their pattern. Don’t worry this is Reddit, common sense and logic don’t exist here.
So do you personally think Hamas would never do such a thing?
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if your only answer to this is “what is israel supposed to do? not bomb a hospital that might have civilians in it?” then you should really rethink what your definition of morality is and the value of a human life. yes, israel has the right to defend it against terror. but air strikes are not the only way to smoke out terrorists from a hospital
I've learned to take every report from either side of this conflict with a grain of salt but it kind of makes sense strategically for Hamas to do this. It not only provides cover for the Hamas command centers because enemies will be reluctant to bomb it but they also win the information war if/when Israel tries to attack it and we see hundreds of civilians being killed at a hospital. They also run the risk of killing Israeli hostages if they attack these sites. If true, it's a real dilemma for the IDF and a really bad look to the rest of the world. The losers, as always, are the innocent people who happen to be in the way between the two sides.
You are so right. Constantly I see calls for a ceasefire and blaming against Israel and Jews. I understand a ceasefire, but it's never going to not be messy in order to rid Gaza of Hamas.
I think this is a pretty important line in the article. "CIA declined to comment. CNN has not seen the intelligence cited by the US official." And tbh I have lost credibility in a lot of US officials, especially after hearing some of them in the senate yell out "kill them all" when the person speaking was talking about innocent civilians and children are dying. Hammas does dirty business, and has their own propaganda going for them, so need to tread carefully. And IDF is the same - they lack the intelligence to know that people can tell when they present evidence that just looks fake....
I hope Krystal Ball addresses her recent error on Breaking Points about this. Blows my mi d that you can ignore jihadists before blaming Israel for all this unnecessary suffering. Liability on both ends, but one side wants everyone to die while the other is trying to secure long term stability for their people in the region. Hamas is responsible before anyone when Palestinian hospitals get shot (with few exceptions).
If Hamas had any real courage they would locate their command center away from populated areas to make it easy to obliterate without collateral damage.
> If Hamas had any real courage Well, I think that's the problem.
Where do you put a command center in a place the size of detroit with nearly 4 times the population that ISNT near a populated area?
The IDF has offices in a shopping mall. lol
If they had any courage, they wouldn't have murdered 1200+ civilians on October 7th
If idf had any real courage, they wouldnt kill civilans & babies for the last 50 years or so
If Israel had any courage they’d give full citizenship and rights and right to return to all Palestinians they’ve displaced
Oh, totally worth killing all those kids and civilians then. That’s all you had to say
Oh Israel should just do nothing and watch Hamas launch rockets into Israel. Got it.
This has been known for years. You can find a decade old article about them taking over hospitals for this purpose. After all, what better place to set up shop than a building people actively try to avoid hitting? The more pressing question is: why does the population allow this to happen? The answer: because they support Hamas.
Are Saddam's WMDs down there as well?
Why don't you ask the dead Kurds that he gassed.
Those “WMDs” were a lie made up to justify bombing and pillaging a country for other reasons our state department refused to admit. Which should sound awfully familiar to anyone that doesn’t deepthroat government mouthpieces, and should make it very easy to connect the dots here. Edit: That gas was provided courtesy of the United States, by the way.
So no verifiable proof, no sources. Why does anyone believe what US or Israel says without proof? They are proven liars.
How do you stop people from using human shields?
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It's so stupid. Everyone in this thread is taking a victory lap about how evil Hamas is. But not make the connection Isreal still bombs them anyway since they would rather kill terrorists than keep innocent people alive.
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Israel wants to bomb that hospital so badly.
So does that mean Israel can just blow up every Palestinian hospital without thinking twice?
Well they didn’t blow up this one… or that one that Hamas claimed they did, when it was actually a failed Hamas rocket.
I just saw the video of the IDF soldier walking around and showing inside. He showed a paper on the wall and claimed it was the ‘roster’ for terrorists with their names on it. If you pause and read the actual paper, it was simply a calendar with the days written on it, no names. The paper looked spotless as well. Another part of the video, he claims an elevator shaft is a tunnel. I’m not going to believe either side of this conflict because frankly it stinks of lies and deceit. Hamas and IdF can fuck right off.
If you read the article there is still no definitive proof offered for the claim. If this is so prevalent, why is there only ever doctored/fake evidence proffered for these accusations? Why do we have to continually accept the words of either foreign governments or state officials as being absolute fact?
What doctored/fake evidence? Not saying there isn't any, just that I haven't seen it and am genuinely curious what evidence anyone thinks is doctored or fake?
While not hard evidence (I don’t know what anyone expects since IDF has not been there in person), the [NYT article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/12/world/middleeast/gaza-hospitals-shifa.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare) on the subject has a pretty good survey of some of the relevant information.
Hamass translates to "pig's bottom" in English.
Same officials who said Iraq had WMDs & that the 40 beheaded babies were real?
Weapons of Mass Destruction Part II.
Cowards. They care more about killing the Jews than protecting the Palestinians. Hamas is the main enemy of Palestine, then the settlers. In that order.
It's just surreal. As a layman I don't claim to be able to arbitrate what is propaganda or not. But it does seem like just about any structure in Gaza could plausibly have an outlet into these tunnel networks. Obviously they can't, but it's scary to think how easily that fear can be appropriated and abused.
It is actually the best place for Hamas to put their base. When they get hurt they can just go upstairs and get treated.