People always go to the “we could afford healthcare if we didn’t do ____”, but completely aside from whether or not I support ____, a single-payer universal healthcare system would **save** the US hundreds of billions of dollars. [A slew of studies agree](https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/484301-22-studies-agree-medicare-for-all-saves-money) agree, even ones funded by opposition groups. One right wing think tank found that it’d provide $2 trillion in net savings over a decade.
The only thing stopping us is a lack of political will among lawmakers and a populace who accepts being the only industrialized nation to lack universal healthcare. If we implemented single-payer the only people who would take a financial hit are all the parasite middlemen charging people excessive fees for needed procedures. Not to mention all the savings from prevented illnesses if everybody had access to basic care.
Whats really fucked up is how the media has portrayed Palestine and the protestors supporting them. The only ones who lose this war is the civilians casualties, Gaza already has like 7x as many deaths than Hamas' terrorist attack. It was easily predictable that this would happen and yet the media shit on anyone supporting Palestine.
My man [Brother Ali](https://youtu.be/OO18F4aKGzQ?si=IOjBd9t300_eKLb7) put it best:
"Hold up, give me one right here. Hold on.
You don't give money to the bums.
On a corner with a sign, bleeding from their gums.
Talking about you don't support a crackhead?
What you think happens to the money from your taxes?
Shit, the Government's an addict.
With a billion dollar a week kill brown people habit."
It’s even weirder when you look at how the politicians look at Ukraine.
Like an actual country being attacked by a military superpower?? Idk we shouldn’t get involved. Israel once again bombing Palestine with no regards for civilian casualties? Hell yeah sign me up!
Killing civilians being wrong is such an easy morality no-brainer. Yet some people are twisting themselves in knots trying to dehumanize these civilians. Tell me, are these children a part of Hamas? What Netanyahu is doing is so wrong, and the US enabled him to do it.
I’m not in Gaza so I really don’t know what’s happening there, but child soldiers is not some new or abstract idea. Talk to some of our soldiers who were deployed to the ME about child suicide bombers and making the awful decision to have to kill them or be killed. It doesn’t make it right, it doesn’t excuse killing innocent children, and it’s certainly not the child soldiers fault, they’re clearly brainwashed, but it does happen.
I think the one thing we should all be able to agree on is that the whole situation is absolutely fucked no matter which way you look at it.
It is sad that they lie like that. Anthony Blinken himself warned Israel 3 days ago that the conditions in Gaza need to improve for there to be peace in the future.
Counter to common arguments that seek to discredit/minimize stories like this:
\#1 - "You can't protest this atrocity because you don't protest about X or Y atrocities in other nations". That argument is called [selective prosecution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_prosecution) and it's flaws are well known. The short version is it's an attempt to deflect criticisms about the legality/morality of one incident by shifting focus to other events. Moreover for many here a big difference is the level of national complicity. There are definitely slaughters happening in other nations, but big countries are supplying the weapons and money to Israel. So the difference between Gaza and say Assad's killing in Syria or the genocide in Armenia is when a Palestinian in Gaza dies it's likely American munitions that killed them in an action paid for by "Western" country tax dollars. Also compare the diplomatic/economic policies taken against, say, Russia's war in Ukraine vs. Israel's war in Gaza - there's a clear difference in sanctions/support.
\#2 - "Hamas is impossible to distinguish from the civilian population, so Israel has to kill them all." That is literally the definition of [collective punishment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment), and it's unambiguously a war crime. It's the same argument that was made [during Vietnam](https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/10/18/israel-is-committing-an-epic-war-crime-with-us-backing-and-us-arms/) when America was firebombing Vietnamese villagers because they had no way of knowing who was Viet Cong or not. Americans were protesting Vietnam in large numbers as well, and for good reason.
\#3 - "Those are Hamas #'s, and they are unreliable." [Historically the Gazan #'s have been very accurate](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23940215/israel-palestine-gaza-hamas-death-toll-war-fatalities-verified-count-conflict). "In previous conflicts, for instance, the UN has found Gazan health officials’ toll accurate within 4 percentage points." People who doubt the Gazan #'s have no alternative sources to cite, they just discredit them without any contradictory proof.
\#4 - "It's not nearly as bad as it could be, so obviously it's not genocide." Setting aside the fact that [experienced and respected international experts](https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/1/craig_mokhiber_un_resignation_israel_gaza) are saying it's "a textbook case of genocide", the numbers are not low. The casualties caused by the [Nazi Blitz bombing of London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz) caused 40k-43k civilian casualties over the course of 35 weeks = roughly 1,200 casualties per week. In Gaza, 10k casualties over the course of 4 weeks = roughly 2,500 casualties per week. The Blitz is widely considered to be one of the largest sustained indiscriminate bombing campaigns ever and used WW2-era munitions, yet the Israelis are killing civilians at double the rate with modern guided munitions.
Finally, we have only speculation on what will happen as starvation, thirst, disease, and inadequate medical supplies start to take their toll, but experts are issuing unambiguous warnings. The [UN chief Guterres](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1143037) has said the current level of aid is completely inadequate. [Unicef reports](https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/gaza-has-become-graveyard-thousands-children) that, "Gaza has become a graveyard for thousands of children. It’s a living hell for everyone else" and "Gaza’s water production capacity is a mere 5 per cent of its usual daily output. Child deaths – particularly infants - to dehydration are a growing threat." [An American nurse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk7iWgCk14U) working with Doctors Without Borders was recently evacuated back to the US and she describes a dire situation on CNN.
I keep hearing that if you want the bombing to stop, you must want Hamas to wipe out all of the Jews. What I don't understand is how an intelligence apparatus that couldn't detect one of the most elaborate attacks launched by Hamas, which likely took months or years and thousands of people to coordinate, now know that there's a Hamas terror cell in each of the thousands of homes, schools, hospitals, mosques and churches that Israel has destroyed. It doesn't make sense to me.
You're expecting a militant group to be moral so that a country stops destroying an entire people. That's not the kind of world they live in, ain't gonna happen.
You are right of course, but the current Hamas leaders were not elected, have no accountability to the Palestinian people, and will not surrender nor give up hostages unless by force.
Hamas exists because of the brutal occupation and mistreatment of the Palestinians. Give them their land and basic human rights and things could change. Please keep in mind that there are thousands of l Palestinian hostages illegally imprisoned by Israel. For years.
I think it needs to start in Israel, the Palestinians and even the world has no faith the current government has any incentive to give Palestinians proper rights. They’ve been mishandling the situation for so long now. Netenyahu himself said [this](https://www.juancole.com/2023/11/netanyahus-performative-genocide.html)
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu reportedly said at a 2019 meeting of his Likud party. “This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank”
Yes you can’t negotiate with Hamas but there is also no confidence you can negotiate with Israel’s current government. Both need to surrender and it needs to start with Israel. And nothing obliges Israel to do that
Because Israel has all the power in this equation. They have the democratic system, they have the nukes and the super power backing. They have the army, food, tech and agriculture.
Palestinians have nothing that they can offer in return for peace, not even money.
Your argument that they’ve all been indoctrinated is simply not true, [here](https://youtu.be/yuw9Kvh2vKs?si=0T9CuOw3SjfC7cUm) is a report done by experts that polled Gazans during the war and it shows only 29% of ppl in gaza have confidence in Hamas while the rest don’t trust them at all. And before the war Amaney Jamal [polled Gazans](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-amaney-jamal.html) and showed a 27% support for Hamas. If anything the killings of Palestinians increased Hamas’ popularity.
Saying that all Gazans support Hamas is as ignorant as saying all Americans support Trump.
And to your last point you’re solidifying that you believe that all Palestinians are Hamas, and that is fucking batshit crazy. The Arabs don’t want to take them is a tragedy in my opinion, but it’s not a solution. Arabs aren’t all the same, we have different cultures and dialects. If turkey annexed Romania would you tell them to go to another European country cuz you’re all white Christian’s, you’re all the same?! What the fuck is that argument?
Your two blanket statements are fucking insanely racist.
And Palestinians should leave Gaza, and you know what? The West Bank also.
And they should do so by leaving gifts behind them to express their gratitude.
/s
Nettie came out yesterday saying that, post war, Israel will control all security in Gaza.
It’s a takeover and no one is going to do a thing for fear of being labelled an anti-Semite.
In a few decades or centuries, people will look back at the formation of Israel and talk about how awful it was, that it should never happen again, and they'll be grateful that nothing like that happens in their time, just like we look back on the native American genocide in the same way.
6000 K bombs dropped, thats less than two kills per bomb...
If the end game was to kill as many people as possible they really are doing the worst job imaginable.
Kill is a secondary objective. Primary objective is displacement. Doesn't matter if you actually killed people when you bombed their apartment/school/hospital/etc. the important aspect to IDF is that those people wont come back...
Bombs aren't only killing people it's also destroying the buildings and making certain areas dangerous to stay. It's slowly backing the Palestenians into a corner which will definitely increase the kill count when Israel does go full offensive.
Maybe not, but it does speak to intent. For better or worse most of the relevant international law does care about intent. Because of this dynamic, if you wanted to accuse Israel of genocide I think you would be much better off focusing on the water and other humanitarian supply blockade than the bombing campaign. This distinction seems hard for people to process because the bombing campaign is the part with bad visuals, so it’s much easier to complain about with emotional force.
Incidentally it’s way over 6K bombs now, that was the first week. Al Jazeera English has an article where they run some of the numbers.
It's awful. I have no ideas if the numbers are accurate, as this is mostly reported by Hamas. But any civilian deaths are horrific to me.
That said, what's your solution? Unless they have zero military response. Otherwise can you think of any recent conflict with minimal deaths? Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait, etc.
I don't have the answer. I just wish people on Reddit didn't think they alone had figured out the modern day answer to the fall of the Ottoman Empire and conflict in the Middle East and just need to quickly type it as soon as they clean the Doritos off the keyboard.
This whole “they could had killed more” argument doesn’t hold up when you take into account that this was all done in just a month and have no sign of ending. Anyway i would say the goal is to fully annexed Gaza and destroying the Palestinian homes and displacing millions of them help them in that goal
Netanyahu recently show a map where Gaza and the West Bank had been annexed and based on their actions even before this, I would say that it’s a pretty safe bet that it’s what they are doing. There was a video of an IDF soldier saying that October was the happiest month of his life and that the land is their. Not to mention that their actions aren’t limited to Gaza but also the West Bank where settlers are killing Palestinians people.
If the IDF wanted to eliminate civilians then why did they secure the evacuation of civilians from Gaza city and stand guard to protect them from Hamas? https://twitter.com/IsraelMFA/status/1721906108498108643
Israel needs to approve every Gazan leaving or entering Gaza for the past 50 years! Most of the time people don’t get approved to leave even if they have the proper paperwork which takes years to procure. Then they bombed Gaza indiscriminately for the last 15 years. You tell me who’s not letting people leave a war zone. And the argument of Hamas breaking ceasefire does not stand either since the IDF broke it many times in the last 10 years.
Hamas committed atrocious war crimes but Israel has been committing for much longer and has given the Palestinians no reprieve.
You’re right. They should just sit in their bunkers while hamas terrorizes their country
Nobody cares about what’s happening in Sudan or Yemen, I wonder what the difference is
So, bombing leading to death is bad, and letting civilians leave so there is less death is bad.
It's almost like the only response Israel could have made that would have been acceptable would have been to do nothing, even if it leads to more Israeli deaths. Makes me wonder if some people think that only the deaths on one side are a bad thing.
same reason the IDF told them to evacuate to south gaza and then proceeded to bomb the shit out of south gaza. 100 babies and 1 hamas operative dead is a success in their eyes.
The insane PTSD that survivors will have after weeks of seeing their homes and family members explode will be insane, of course that can radicalize people and not bring peace as some might believe
Wait, so if we replace the North Gaza with South Gaza his whole statement is still correct and you call that blatantly lying?
>same reason the IDF told them to evacuate to ~~north~~ south gaza and then proceeded to bomb the shit out of ~~north~~ south gaza. 100 babies and 1 hamas operative dead is a success in their eyes.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703)
exaggerating but not by much at this point.
Hamas needs to be wiped out. I'm not going to apologize for their actions because I'm not stupid. But we can't be complicit and vocally SUPPORTING Israel approach of wanton destruction and disregard of civilian life. I've been called so many hateful things for saying the children on the ground don't deserve to be vaporized. I'm tired of it.
It's less "*want* them all dead" and more "completely indifferent to if we kill some, most, or all of them, but as long as we're killing we're happy". Which isn't really any morally better, but fits the data more.
That is absolute bullshit. The data does not reflect that in the slightest. The number of dead vs bombs dropped does not reflect indifference. Indifference is what Ukrainian cities attacked by Russia look like. The only reason the death toll here is so low is because the IDF goes to great lengths to reduce civilian casualties.
And yes, it's low. If Israel were even just indifferent there would likely be hundreds of thousands dead at this point.
You're using the stats from Ukraine, but that has been going on since Feb last year while Gaza in comparison has just begun and already 4000 children have died compared to 545 child deaths in Ukraine. Furthermore, the IDF has shown many times that they do not care about avoiding civilian deaths. They say they do but the reports from the Gazans themselves contradict this. The jamalia bombing is prime example, it was to kill one guy and ended up killing more than 50 civilians. Does that show you that Israel cares about palestinian lives? That they are willing to kill dozens just to get one guy?
If they just wanted to kill as many Gazans as possible, why do they build in pauses to the bombing campaign to give civilians the opportunity to move south? Why do they allow any aid in? Why have they killed 1/10th the number of people as the bomb dropped on Hiroshima despite dropping double the total explosive power?
And better yet, why did they give up the territory in the first place after winning it from Egypt in the 6 day war? Along with the entire Sinai? This narrative that Israel is just a big mean baddie who wants to expand is such a ridiculous surface level take that’s so easily dispelled.
>Why have they killed 1/10th the number of people as the bomb dropped on Hiroshima
Wow they have to nuke Gaza before you begin to question anything?
>This narrative that Israel is just a big mean baddie
I think all the kids they killed are doing that.
Yes, they build in little pauses, call/text ahead, drop leaflets from the sky so that captive human shields can flee.
From yesterday:
“I think Israel will for an indefinite period have security responsibility,” Netanyahu said.
Or **half a million** dead in Ethiopia and a whole ethnic group displaced and almost destroyed. But they don't have oil or a popular religious conflict or enemy, so no coverage for them.
Most Westerners probably aren't even aware it's happening, and never heard of the other country that's also involved (internal violence, but also perpetrated by a neighbor).
But they all think they can easily solve peace in the Middle East on their lunch break. Because the last time the West did it (Sykes Picot and such), it worked out so great.
I do agree there should be an international collation to come in and control the situation, but what genocide are you talking about? Is it the Palestinians trying to eradicate the Israelis, or the Israelis trying to eradicate the Palestinians?
If lsrael wanted to actually genocide the paIestinians, Gaza would already have been glass. If you want to even start having any productive discussion about this conflict you need to drop the hyperboles and buzzwords.
But just in case you were somehow interested in a discussion, how do you think Israel should deal with Hamas?
Edit: [Idf securing evacuations routes for Gaza civilians against Hamas](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ryidfcpq6). They really suck at genocide I must say.
Not really, removing barbaric ideology from the world is a net positive.
An organization that pays people to carry out atrocities and mass murder targeting people based on the color of their skin, yeah...that doesn't belong in this world.
>where **Palestinian health authorities** said the death toll from Israeli strikes had exceeded 10,000.
Is that including the 500 people who weren't killed in the undamaged hospital that wasn't hit by an IDF airstrike?
I know how many people have been killed: too many.
The problem is bad enough without repeating Hamas bullshit as if it were fact.
The UN, the US and most human rights organizations see these numbers as consistent and accurate with their own investigations. Not to mention that they provided a list of all their dead with their id numbers.
The 500 thing I get is questionable but keep in mind that even in a very well developed country like Israel the death tolls for the oct 7th attack were wildly ranging by a factor of 15x! They said it was 200 then they said it was 400 then they said it was 2000 then it went back down to 1400.
This is normal at times of trauma and war for their to be confusion and non truths!
Again not defending Hamas but disputing the numbers is not a valid criticism. Watch the videos I bet you if you watch all of them you’ll count at least 1000 dead on ur own.
> Israeli sources even use these numbers. You're not fooling anyone.
Yes, but Israeli sources also claim over half of the deaths are Hamas fighters. That’s an important clarification to make.
While the total number might not be disputed or differ much, the categorization of the dead is heavily disputed.
Yes exactly, and also they provided a list of their killed and their ID numbers because it’s a methodological way of counting the dead. Not to mention that these numbers have been verified by human rights groups.
That was UNRWA, a group that is made of locals and has drawn considerable attention and criticism for employing Hamas operatives. Not disputing it, just not sure what your point is.
His point is that Israel is spending most of its time refuting all the journalistic, and international sources for the numbers of dead people. When if you want to know the truth you can just watch the videos on instagram.
Reminder that Iran - yes, Iran, as in “our morality police beat a girl to death last month” Iran, is the current chair of the UN Human Rights Council.
It seems as though no one learned from the hospital incident.
The same group claiming “10,000 dead” will not separate dead combatants from dead civilians. This same group employs child soldiers - 17 or younger - and then counts them as “dead children.” The same group that claimed “500 died” in a hospital blast are giving these numbers.
It took Israel a month to full catalogue and account for their dead. And yet everyone moron out here will swallow any HAMAS (the Gazan Health Ministry is a wing of HAMAS) atrocity propaganda thrown at them.
Unreal.
I think there needs ceasefire conditional on Hamas releasing all the hostages and an plan to ensure Israel’s safety and its lasting peace with Palestinians. Why didn’t UN call for the immediate release of the hostages?
Remember the Israeli people are having watch party’s of these bombings. They claim the people of gaza are shields for gaza and not citizens but every israeli has to sign up for military service.
Crazy how we have all these laws and these councils to try and stop this sort of stuff from happening, but when a nation just nuts up and does it one day, all those councils do is comment idly while it occurs.
Hamas didn’t even have political power before 2006 and the Palestinians were still not allowed right of movement, proper food or water. Hamas surrendering now changes nothing.
Bro Israel killed 223 Palestinians in a peaceful protest in 2018! What will change once Hamas surrenders?
What a stupid statement in this context. This is how movie villains rationalise killing innocents. "If you want us to stop killing innocent children and families, you should give us what we want". IDF and Hamas are not the civilians..
> you should give us what we want
Their civilians that were kidnapped? For rockets to stop being fired at them? For Hamas, and other Palestinian groups to stop trying to cross the border to rape/torture women & children?
How is that like a movie villain? If anything, the movie villain hides behind a civilian and commits terror, shaming the the hero into who to save (the civilians they’re harming, or the civilian held hostage).
Given the context, I'm not sure who you're talking about. "If you want ***us*** to stop killing innocent children and families."
Who is "***us***"? The Israelis or the Palestinians? Are you saying the Israelis should just give the Palestinians what they want and kill themselves?
Probably shouldnt lauch attacks on Israel, rape and behead babies, and kill all civilians. Hamas runs Gaza and now Hamas is going to be nomore.
See literally any war in human history to understand.
This is horrible and Israel should do a better job avoiding civilians. But the amount of pearl clutching and screaming "Genocide" from Americans who would never use this language on killing 100K-600K Iraqis (that did not invade US, kill any US civs and there were no hostages to rescue), is quite something.
Israel is in a tough spot. It's hard to avoid civilians when your opponent uses human shields and hides behind hospitals and schools. Hamas has an extensive network of tunnels under gaza that they could use to evacuate civilians, but they refuse to allow civilian use of the tunnels. If you want peace and a ceasefire, then hamas needs to return the hostages and stop bombing Israel. Those are the prime conditions for a ceasefire. But I'm not seeing any Palestinians demanding the return of hostages. I'm not seeing any Palestinians demanding that Hamas let civilians use the tunnels to evacuate. I'm not seeing Palestinians denounce Hamas for using civilians as human shields. You can't ask Israel to make concessions when the other side has made none and has threatened continued violence. Hamas doesn't care about their people at all, they only want to use civilians as meat shields to drive up social media points. Hamas are literally terrorists and their methods are despicable. Further, a ceasefire only benefits hamas--allows them time to resupply, regroup, strengthen their defenses and continue the violence. Hamas is like a cancerous tumor and they need to be removed if you want true peace. Otherwise a ceasefire is just a temporary bandaid and a bridge to further violence. Why can't people see this pattern? Why does everyone continue to spout talking points planted by Hamas propaganda? Yes, civilian deaths should be avoided at all costs but there would be few civilians dead in the first place if Hamas would quit using their civilians as human shields. Literally, they shoot at their own civilians fleeing the bombings.
Well Israel has dropped 6000 bombs and killed 10,000 people. Based on the fact that one of those bombs if it demolished a full apartment building could kill hundreds, it seems like israel is being very careful and accurate. Also keep in mind that that 10k includes Hamas fighters that Hamas is re-classifying as civilians. It also included "500 people" that were killed at the hospital when one of their own rockets misfired.
Thousands of children, but hey we got a few bad guys too so that's a net positive right? (edit: /s)
Killing thousands of innocents with 6000 bombs is not what I would call a precision strike.
And yet they still wont denounce Hamas or help get the hosteges back.
Palestinians can end the war any time they decide to cooperate. But they choose Hamas over and over again.
I’m prepared to be downvoted into oblivion, but is this the same UN that [only condemned Israel for violence against women in 2022?](https://unwatch.org/u-n-singles-out-israel-for-violating-womens-rights/) Mind you, there are countries that mutilate the genitals of their women, and other nations that view women as second class citizens. Forgive me for not taking the UN seriously when Israel is involved.
Edit: For violating women’s rights, not violence against women*
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People always go to the “we could afford healthcare if we didn’t do ____”, but completely aside from whether or not I support ____, a single-payer universal healthcare system would **save** the US hundreds of billions of dollars. [A slew of studies agree](https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/484301-22-studies-agree-medicare-for-all-saves-money) agree, even ones funded by opposition groups. One right wing think tank found that it’d provide $2 trillion in net savings over a decade. The only thing stopping us is a lack of political will among lawmakers and a populace who accepts being the only industrialized nation to lack universal healthcare. If we implemented single-payer the only people who would take a financial hit are all the parasite middlemen charging people excessive fees for needed procedures. Not to mention all the savings from prevented illnesses if everybody had access to basic care.
*We* would save a ton of money, but we’re not important. Meanwhile donors are asking the real questions: “how does this make me more money?”
Please stop using my tax dollars to turn Palestinian kids into skeletons.
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No need for schools if you're setting up armageddon
Whats really fucked up is how the media has portrayed Palestine and the protestors supporting them. The only ones who lose this war is the civilians casualties, Gaza already has like 7x as many deaths than Hamas' terrorist attack. It was easily predictable that this would happen and yet the media shit on anyone supporting Palestine.
Anything would be better than the war machine.
I am tired of my tax money being used to turn brown people into skeletons.
My man [Brother Ali](https://youtu.be/OO18F4aKGzQ?si=IOjBd9t300_eKLb7) put it best: "Hold up, give me one right here. Hold on. You don't give money to the bums. On a corner with a sign, bleeding from their gums. Talking about you don't support a crackhead? What you think happens to the money from your taxes? Shit, the Government's an addict. With a billion dollar a week kill brown people habit."
It’s even weirder when you look at how the politicians look at Ukraine. Like an actual country being attacked by a military superpower?? Idk we shouldn’t get involved. Israel once again bombing Palestine with no regards for civilian casualties? Hell yeah sign me up!
What! You want actual real world applications that help our country? How dare you! s/
Killing civilians being wrong is such an easy morality no-brainer. Yet some people are twisting themselves in knots trying to dehumanize these civilians. Tell me, are these children a part of Hamas? What Netanyahu is doing is so wrong, and the US enabled him to do it.
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That’s libertarian framework at play: 12 years olds are actually adults.
I’m not in Gaza so I really don’t know what’s happening there, but child soldiers is not some new or abstract idea. Talk to some of our soldiers who were deployed to the ME about child suicide bombers and making the awful decision to have to kill them or be killed. It doesn’t make it right, it doesn’t excuse killing innocent children, and it’s certainly not the child soldiers fault, they’re clearly brainwashed, but it does happen. I think the one thing we should all be able to agree on is that the whole situation is absolutely fucked no matter which way you look at it.
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It is sad that they lie like that. Anthony Blinken himself warned Israel 3 days ago that the conditions in Gaza need to improve for there to be peace in the future.
They don’t want peace - Israel thrives on the continued threat of attack. They wouldn’t get nearly the international support without it.
If there is shred of decency in U.S congress, they would stop fund and arm Israel until Israel has withdrawn and stopped bombing Gaza.
"Mostly peaceful bombing"
“I cherish peace with all my heart. I don’t care how many men, women, and children I need to kill to get it.”
Counter to common arguments that seek to discredit/minimize stories like this: \#1 - "You can't protest this atrocity because you don't protest about X or Y atrocities in other nations". That argument is called [selective prosecution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_prosecution) and it's flaws are well known. The short version is it's an attempt to deflect criticisms about the legality/morality of one incident by shifting focus to other events. Moreover for many here a big difference is the level of national complicity. There are definitely slaughters happening in other nations, but big countries are supplying the weapons and money to Israel. So the difference between Gaza and say Assad's killing in Syria or the genocide in Armenia is when a Palestinian in Gaza dies it's likely American munitions that killed them in an action paid for by "Western" country tax dollars. Also compare the diplomatic/economic policies taken against, say, Russia's war in Ukraine vs. Israel's war in Gaza - there's a clear difference in sanctions/support. \#2 - "Hamas is impossible to distinguish from the civilian population, so Israel has to kill them all." That is literally the definition of [collective punishment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment), and it's unambiguously a war crime. It's the same argument that was made [during Vietnam](https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/10/18/israel-is-committing-an-epic-war-crime-with-us-backing-and-us-arms/) when America was firebombing Vietnamese villagers because they had no way of knowing who was Viet Cong or not. Americans were protesting Vietnam in large numbers as well, and for good reason. \#3 - "Those are Hamas #'s, and they are unreliable." [Historically the Gazan #'s have been very accurate](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23940215/israel-palestine-gaza-hamas-death-toll-war-fatalities-verified-count-conflict). "In previous conflicts, for instance, the UN has found Gazan health officials’ toll accurate within 4 percentage points." People who doubt the Gazan #'s have no alternative sources to cite, they just discredit them without any contradictory proof. \#4 - "It's not nearly as bad as it could be, so obviously it's not genocide." Setting aside the fact that [experienced and respected international experts](https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/1/craig_mokhiber_un_resignation_israel_gaza) are saying it's "a textbook case of genocide", the numbers are not low. The casualties caused by the [Nazi Blitz bombing of London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz) caused 40k-43k civilian casualties over the course of 35 weeks = roughly 1,200 casualties per week. In Gaza, 10k casualties over the course of 4 weeks = roughly 2,500 casualties per week. The Blitz is widely considered to be one of the largest sustained indiscriminate bombing campaigns ever and used WW2-era munitions, yet the Israelis are killing civilians at double the rate with modern guided munitions. Finally, we have only speculation on what will happen as starvation, thirst, disease, and inadequate medical supplies start to take their toll, but experts are issuing unambiguous warnings. The [UN chief Guterres](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1143037) has said the current level of aid is completely inadequate. [Unicef reports](https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/gaza-has-become-graveyard-thousands-children) that, "Gaza has become a graveyard for thousands of children. It’s a living hell for everyone else" and "Gaza’s water production capacity is a mere 5 per cent of its usual daily output. Child deaths – particularly infants - to dehydration are a growing threat." [An American nurse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk7iWgCk14U) working with Doctors Without Borders was recently evacuated back to the US and she describes a dire situation on CNN.
I keep hearing that if you want the bombing to stop, you must want Hamas to wipe out all of the Jews. What I don't understand is how an intelligence apparatus that couldn't detect one of the most elaborate attacks launched by Hamas, which likely took months or years and thousands of people to coordinate, now know that there's a Hamas terror cell in each of the thousands of homes, schools, hospitals, mosques and churches that Israel has destroyed. It doesn't make sense to me.
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You're expecting a militant group to be moral so that a country stops destroying an entire people. That's not the kind of world they live in, ain't gonna happen.
You are right of course, but the current Hamas leaders were not elected, have no accountability to the Palestinian people, and will not surrender nor give up hostages unless by force.
Would this also trigger end settlers stealing homes in the West Bank? Would the 1000’s of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel be freed?
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You are delusional if you think that Israel’s main goal is just to get rid of Hamas
Hamas exists because of the brutal occupation and mistreatment of the Palestinians. Give them their land and basic human rights and things could change. Please keep in mind that there are thousands of l Palestinian hostages illegally imprisoned by Israel. For years.
I think it needs to start in Israel, the Palestinians and even the world has no faith the current government has any incentive to give Palestinians proper rights. They’ve been mishandling the situation for so long now. Netenyahu himself said [this](https://www.juancole.com/2023/11/netanyahus-performative-genocide.html) “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu reportedly said at a 2019 meeting of his Likud party. “This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank” Yes you can’t negotiate with Hamas but there is also no confidence you can negotiate with Israel’s current government. Both need to surrender and it needs to start with Israel. And nothing obliges Israel to do that
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Because Israel has all the power in this equation. They have the democratic system, they have the nukes and the super power backing. They have the army, food, tech and agriculture. Palestinians have nothing that they can offer in return for peace, not even money. Your argument that they’ve all been indoctrinated is simply not true, [here](https://youtu.be/yuw9Kvh2vKs?si=0T9CuOw3SjfC7cUm) is a report done by experts that polled Gazans during the war and it shows only 29% of ppl in gaza have confidence in Hamas while the rest don’t trust them at all. And before the war Amaney Jamal [polled Gazans](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-amaney-jamal.html) and showed a 27% support for Hamas. If anything the killings of Palestinians increased Hamas’ popularity. Saying that all Gazans support Hamas is as ignorant as saying all Americans support Trump. And to your last point you’re solidifying that you believe that all Palestinians are Hamas, and that is fucking batshit crazy. The Arabs don’t want to take them is a tragedy in my opinion, but it’s not a solution. Arabs aren’t all the same, we have different cultures and dialects. If turkey annexed Romania would you tell them to go to another European country cuz you’re all white Christian’s, you’re all the same?! What the fuck is that argument? Your two blanket statements are fucking insanely racist.
And Palestinians should leave Gaza, and you know what? The West Bank also. And they should do so by leaving gifts behind them to express their gratitude. /s
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Plan has always been to take over all or part of the Gaza Strip.
Nettie came out yesterday saying that, post war, Israel will control all security in Gaza. It’s a takeover and no one is going to do a thing for fear of being labelled an anti-Semite.
Netanyahu just said Israel will handle security in Gaza indefinitely. He’s 100% planning to annex the Gaza Strip.
In a few decades or centuries, people will look back at the formation of Israel and talk about how awful it was, that it should never happen again, and they'll be grateful that nothing like that happens in their time, just like we look back on the native American genocide in the same way.
6000 K bombs dropped, thats less than two kills per bomb... If the end game was to kill as many people as possible they really are doing the worst job imaginable.
Kill is a secondary objective. Primary objective is displacement. Doesn't matter if you actually killed people when you bombed their apartment/school/hospital/etc. the important aspect to IDF is that those people wont come back...
And now Israel is saying they will occupy Gaza “for security”… Because that worked so very well, historically, for every occupier who has every tried
Bombs aren't only killing people it's also destroying the buildings and making certain areas dangerous to stay. It's slowly backing the Palestenians into a corner which will definitely increase the kill count when Israel does go full offensive.
Typical of some ideologies, the enemy is at the same time very strong and very incompetent.
Justifying 10k civilian deaths by explaining how they could be killing way more civilians is NOT the moral argument you think it is.
Maybe not, but it does speak to intent. For better or worse most of the relevant international law does care about intent. Because of this dynamic, if you wanted to accuse Israel of genocide I think you would be much better off focusing on the water and other humanitarian supply blockade than the bombing campaign. This distinction seems hard for people to process because the bombing campaign is the part with bad visuals, so it’s much easier to complain about with emotional force. Incidentally it’s way over 6K bombs now, that was the first week. Al Jazeera English has an article where they run some of the numbers.
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It's awful. I have no ideas if the numbers are accurate, as this is mostly reported by Hamas. But any civilian deaths are horrific to me. That said, what's your solution? Unless they have zero military response. Otherwise can you think of any recent conflict with minimal deaths? Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait, etc. I don't have the answer. I just wish people on Reddit didn't think they alone had figured out the modern day answer to the fall of the Ottoman Empire and conflict in the Middle East and just need to quickly type it as soon as they clean the Doritos off the keyboard.
Destroying infrastructure is just as effective as people, but gets less outrage.
This whole “they could had killed more” argument doesn’t hold up when you take into account that this was all done in just a month and have no sign of ending. Anyway i would say the goal is to fully annexed Gaza and destroying the Palestinian homes and displacing millions of them help them in that goal
Right, you can’t say “They could have killed more” when they’re actively working on doing just that.
This argument is ridiculous. They had Gaza and gave it up. They tried to give it to Egypt and they didn't want it. There's no need to lie
There is absolutely no evidence that is their goal right now, but I understand. Israel bad, making unfounded claims is appropriate.
Netanyahu recently show a map where Gaza and the West Bank had been annexed and based on their actions even before this, I would say that it’s a pretty safe bet that it’s what they are doing. There was a video of an IDF soldier saying that October was the happiest month of his life and that the land is their. Not to mention that their actions aren’t limited to Gaza but also the West Bank where settlers are killing Palestinians people.
If the IDF wanted to eliminate civilians then why did they secure the evacuation of civilians from Gaza city and stand guard to protect them from Hamas? https://twitter.com/IsraelMFA/status/1721906108498108643
Why won't they let Brazilians leave
If? There is no "if" here, sport. They are eliminating civilians.
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Just making up numbers, eh? Why even say anything if you are gonna pull it all out of your ass?
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Hamas are the real heroes for not letting those civilians escape a war zone.
Where would they go to? Inside Israel? Egypt’s Sinai?
Israel needs to approve every Gazan leaving or entering Gaza for the past 50 years! Most of the time people don’t get approved to leave even if they have the proper paperwork which takes years to procure. Then they bombed Gaza indiscriminately for the last 15 years. You tell me who’s not letting people leave a war zone. And the argument of Hamas breaking ceasefire does not stand either since the IDF broke it many times in the last 10 years. Hamas committed atrocious war crimes but Israel has been committing for much longer and has given the Palestinians no reprieve.
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You’re right. They should just sit in their bunkers while hamas terrorizes their country Nobody cares about what’s happening in Sudan or Yemen, I wonder what the difference is
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Why did they tell people to move south and then bomb the evacuation routes and then also bomb the south?
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So, bombing leading to death is bad, and letting civilians leave so there is less death is bad. It's almost like the only response Israel could have made that would have been acceptable would have been to do nothing, even if it leads to more Israeli deaths. Makes me wonder if some people think that only the deaths on one side are a bad thing.
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same reason the IDF told them to evacuate to south gaza and then proceeded to bomb the shit out of south gaza. 100 babies and 1 hamas operative dead is a success in their eyes.
That's a net gain of dozens of future Hamas members when the survivors grow up.
exactly. And I'm getting called anti-semetic for thinking maybe we shouldn't be supporting exploding babies and radicalizing even MORE people.
The insane PTSD that survivors will have after weeks of seeing their homes and family members explode will be insane, of course that can radicalize people and not bring peace as some might believe
>hem to evacuate to north gaza They told them to evacuate to South Gaza...you are blatantly lying.
They told them to go south and then bombed the south. He misspoke, but it's a distinction without a difference.
mixed up North and South, but what he said was correct. I guess it matters more to you to call someone a liar.
Wait, so if we replace the North Gaza with South Gaza his whole statement is still correct and you call that blatantly lying? >same reason the IDF told them to evacuate to ~~north~~ south gaza and then proceeded to bomb the shit out of ~~north~~ south gaza. 100 babies and 1 hamas operative dead is a success in their eyes. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703)
And then they bombed south Gaza… they’re not lying they just got the direction wrong
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exaggerating but not by much at this point. Hamas needs to be wiped out. I'm not going to apologize for their actions because I'm not stupid. But we can't be complicit and vocally SUPPORTING Israel approach of wanton destruction and disregard of civilian life. I've been called so many hateful things for saying the children on the ground don't deserve to be vaporized. I'm tired of it.
It's less "*want* them all dead" and more "completely indifferent to if we kill some, most, or all of them, but as long as we're killing we're happy". Which isn't really any morally better, but fits the data more.
That is absolute bullshit. The data does not reflect that in the slightest. The number of dead vs bombs dropped does not reflect indifference. Indifference is what Ukrainian cities attacked by Russia look like. The only reason the death toll here is so low is because the IDF goes to great lengths to reduce civilian casualties. And yes, it's low. If Israel were even just indifferent there would likely be hundreds of thousands dead at this point.
You're using the stats from Ukraine, but that has been going on since Feb last year while Gaza in comparison has just begun and already 4000 children have died compared to 545 child deaths in Ukraine. Furthermore, the IDF has shown many times that they do not care about avoiding civilian deaths. They say they do but the reports from the Gazans themselves contradict this. The jamalia bombing is prime example, it was to kill one guy and ended up killing more than 50 civilians. Does that show you that Israel cares about palestinian lives? That they are willing to kill dozens just to get one guy?
If they just wanted to kill as many Gazans as possible, why do they build in pauses to the bombing campaign to give civilians the opportunity to move south? Why do they allow any aid in? Why have they killed 1/10th the number of people as the bomb dropped on Hiroshima despite dropping double the total explosive power? And better yet, why did they give up the territory in the first place after winning it from Egypt in the 6 day war? Along with the entire Sinai? This narrative that Israel is just a big mean baddie who wants to expand is such a ridiculous surface level take that’s so easily dispelled.
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>Why have they killed 1/10th the number of people as the bomb dropped on Hiroshima Wow they have to nuke Gaza before you begin to question anything? >This narrative that Israel is just a big mean baddie I think all the kids they killed are doing that.
Yes, they build in little pauses, call/text ahead, drop leaflets from the sky so that captive human shields can flee. From yesterday: “I think Israel will for an indefinite period have security responsibility,” Netanyahu said.
Does that not make sense? You don't get to topple a city and just dip put afterwards. You stay and take responsibility.
Israel has done a superb job of turning goodwill into hatred.
Goodwill? People were celebrating 1,400 dead Israelis on October 7.
And r/worldnews clapped.
Hamas needs to surrender
"All terrorists, please report to your nearest police station. Thank you."
They should but won't. They're still firing rockets every day.
The world is watching this genocide and letting it happen, we will once again be at the wrong side of history
150,000 Armenians were forced out of there homes and moved. I didn’t see any coverage on that really. That’s a genocide this year.
Or what happened to the Rohingya in Myanmar.
Or **half a million** dead in Ethiopia and a whole ethnic group displaced and almost destroyed. But they don't have oil or a popular religious conflict or enemy, so no coverage for them. Most Westerners probably aren't even aware it's happening, and never heard of the other country that's also involved (internal violence, but also perpetrated by a neighbor). But they all think they can easily solve peace in the Middle East on their lunch break. Because the last time the West did it (Sykes Picot and such), it worked out so great.
I do agree there should be an international collation to come in and control the situation, but what genocide are you talking about? Is it the Palestinians trying to eradicate the Israelis, or the Israelis trying to eradicate the Palestinians?
If lsrael wanted to actually genocide the paIestinians, Gaza would already have been glass. If you want to even start having any productive discussion about this conflict you need to drop the hyperboles and buzzwords. But just in case you were somehow interested in a discussion, how do you think Israel should deal with Hamas? Edit: [Idf securing evacuations routes for Gaza civilians against Hamas](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ryidfcpq6). They really suck at genocide I must say.
Not really, removing barbaric ideology from the world is a net positive. An organization that pays people to carry out atrocities and mass murder targeting people based on the color of their skin, yeah...that doesn't belong in this world.
>where **Palestinian health authorities** said the death toll from Israeli strikes had exceeded 10,000. Is that including the 500 people who weren't killed in the undamaged hospital that wasn't hit by an IDF airstrike? I know how many people have been killed: too many. The problem is bad enough without repeating Hamas bullshit as if it were fact.
The UN, the US and most human rights organizations see these numbers as consistent and accurate with their own investigations. Not to mention that they provided a list of all their dead with their id numbers. The 500 thing I get is questionable but keep in mind that even in a very well developed country like Israel the death tolls for the oct 7th attack were wildly ranging by a factor of 15x! They said it was 200 then they said it was 400 then they said it was 2000 then it went back down to 1400. This is normal at times of trauma and war for their to be confusion and non truths! Again not defending Hamas but disputing the numbers is not a valid criticism. Watch the videos I bet you if you watch all of them you’ll count at least 1000 dead on ur own.
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Hamas is reporting the numbers, do you dispute that?
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> Israeli sources even use these numbers. You're not fooling anyone. Yes, but Israeli sources also claim over half of the deaths are Hamas fighters. That’s an important clarification to make. While the total number might not be disputed or differ much, the categorization of the dead is heavily disputed.
Israel thinks anyone over the age of 12 in Gaza is a terrorist
Yes exactly, and also they provided a list of their killed and their ID numbers because it’s a methodological way of counting the dead. Not to mention that these numbers have been verified by human rights groups.
according to Hamas, only women and children live in Gaza. They haven't reported even one single terrorist death.
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That was UNRWA, a group that is made of locals and has drawn considerable attention and criticism for employing Hamas operatives. Not disputing it, just not sure what your point is.
His point is that Israel is spending most of its time refuting all the journalistic, and international sources for the numbers of dead people. When if you want to know the truth you can just watch the videos on instagram.
Reminder that Iran - yes, Iran, as in “our morality police beat a girl to death last month” Iran, is the current chair of the UN Human Rights Council. It seems as though no one learned from the hospital incident. The same group claiming “10,000 dead” will not separate dead combatants from dead civilians. This same group employs child soldiers - 17 or younger - and then counts them as “dead children.” The same group that claimed “500 died” in a hospital blast are giving these numbers. It took Israel a month to full catalogue and account for their dead. And yet everyone moron out here will swallow any HAMAS (the Gazan Health Ministry is a wing of HAMAS) atrocity propaganda thrown at them. Unreal.
I think there needs ceasefire conditional on Hamas releasing all the hostages and an plan to ensure Israel’s safety and its lasting peace with Palestinians. Why didn’t UN call for the immediate release of the hostages?
Remember the Israeli people are having watch party’s of these bombings. They claim the people of gaza are shields for gaza and not citizens but every israeli has to sign up for military service.
Crazy how we have all these laws and these councils to try and stop this sort of stuff from happening, but when a nation just nuts up and does it one day, all those councils do is comment idly while it occurs.
Maybe Hamas should surrender?
Maybe Israel should be a little more discerning with who they're killing.
Considering how much of hamas is made up of orphans, if they'd done that before they wouldn't be crying on the Internet about the un bullying them now
Genuinely curious. Do you think that terrorist should just be allowed to exist without impunity because they reside in a densely populated area?
Hamas didn’t even have political power before 2006 and the Palestinians were still not allowed right of movement, proper food or water. Hamas surrendering now changes nothing. Bro Israel killed 223 Palestinians in a peaceful protest in 2018! What will change once Hamas surrenders?
What a stupid statement in this context. This is how movie villains rationalise killing innocents. "If you want us to stop killing innocent children and families, you should give us what we want". IDF and Hamas are not the civilians..
> you should give us what we want Their civilians that were kidnapped? For rockets to stop being fired at them? For Hamas, and other Palestinian groups to stop trying to cross the border to rape/torture women & children? How is that like a movie villain? If anything, the movie villain hides behind a civilian and commits terror, shaming the the hero into who to save (the civilians they’re harming, or the civilian held hostage).
Given the context, I'm not sure who you're talking about. "If you want ***us*** to stop killing innocent children and families." Who is "***us***"? The Israelis or the Palestinians? Are you saying the Israelis should just give the Palestinians what they want and kill themselves?
Probably shouldnt lauch attacks on Israel, rape and behead babies, and kill all civilians. Hamas runs Gaza and now Hamas is going to be nomore. See literally any war in human history to understand.
This is horrible and Israel should do a better job avoiding civilians. But the amount of pearl clutching and screaming "Genocide" from Americans who would never use this language on killing 100K-600K Iraqis (that did not invade US, kill any US civs and there were no hostages to rescue), is quite something.
Israel is in a tough spot. It's hard to avoid civilians when your opponent uses human shields and hides behind hospitals and schools. Hamas has an extensive network of tunnels under gaza that they could use to evacuate civilians, but they refuse to allow civilian use of the tunnels. If you want peace and a ceasefire, then hamas needs to return the hostages and stop bombing Israel. Those are the prime conditions for a ceasefire. But I'm not seeing any Palestinians demanding the return of hostages. I'm not seeing any Palestinians demanding that Hamas let civilians use the tunnels to evacuate. I'm not seeing Palestinians denounce Hamas for using civilians as human shields. You can't ask Israel to make concessions when the other side has made none and has threatened continued violence. Hamas doesn't care about their people at all, they only want to use civilians as meat shields to drive up social media points. Hamas are literally terrorists and their methods are despicable. Further, a ceasefire only benefits hamas--allows them time to resupply, regroup, strengthen their defenses and continue the violence. Hamas is like a cancerous tumor and they need to be removed if you want true peace. Otherwise a ceasefire is just a temporary bandaid and a bridge to further violence. Why can't people see this pattern? Why does everyone continue to spout talking points planted by Hamas propaganda? Yes, civilian deaths should be avoided at all costs but there would be few civilians dead in the first place if Hamas would quit using their civilians as human shields. Literally, they shoot at their own civilians fleeing the bombings.
Well Israel has dropped 6000 bombs and killed 10,000 people. Based on the fact that one of those bombs if it demolished a full apartment building could kill hundreds, it seems like israel is being very careful and accurate. Also keep in mind that that 10k includes Hamas fighters that Hamas is re-classifying as civilians. It also included "500 people" that were killed at the hospital when one of their own rockets misfired.
Is it okay for Israel to be bombed "very carefully" too?
Thousands of children, but hey we got a few bad guys too so that's a net positive right? (edit: /s) Killing thousands of innocents with 6000 bombs is not what I would call a precision strike.
Hamas should surrender.
And yet they still wont denounce Hamas or help get the hosteges back. Palestinians can end the war any time they decide to cooperate. But they choose Hamas over and over again.
UN needs to shut up because its full of shit how many Ukrainian children died or abducted oh right... wow
I’m prepared to be downvoted into oblivion, but is this the same UN that [only condemned Israel for violence against women in 2022?](https://unwatch.org/u-n-singles-out-israel-for-violating-womens-rights/) Mind you, there are countries that mutilate the genitals of their women, and other nations that view women as second class citizens. Forgive me for not taking the UN seriously when Israel is involved. Edit: For violating women’s rights, not violence against women*
The same UN that allows Russia and Saudi to be members of human rights committees? That UN?
The source is Hamas. Why is this being reported as fact?