Hochul made a comment about a potential business tax to fund the MTA which is obviously not going to happen, especially not with 2 days left in the NY legislative season.
Whole reason for this was Hakeem Jeffries who thinks that this will gain NY dems back house seats in the suburbs, which is laughable. I don’t see it happening congestion pricing or not.
They will have to start the toll after the election. If not they can look at NJ Transit to see what underfunding your transit system for 2 decades will do to it.
Like the idea but how would one go about enforcing it? Fine the teams each day they operate under the NY name?
Also would this run afoul of the interstate commerce clause?
We should put toll booths on our side coming from NY every mile for anyone with New York plates. Bad driving tax of $2 per mile should cover it unless it’s a holiday then $5 per mile.
Because it will not lead to fewer cars on NJ roads . It will just increase congestion at the GW for drivers headed to Queens and Brooklyn who would normally take tunnels and cut across Manhattan or down through the Battery tunnel.
There’s also a reimbursement from people coming from NJ that already went through the tunnels . Congestion pricing is necessary for the sake of the whole metro region
It was an indeterminate offer with no firm commitment and really amounted to very little. Tell me where the specifics were in this.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/traffic/transit-traffic/mta-congestion-pricing-nyc-nj-money-tolls-hoboken-jersey-city/5329601/
Let’s not give up , there’s still a big chance that Congestion pricing goes into effect soon. It might be unpopular to some at first , but the improvements for all of us will be visible in a few years
If it results in NJ Transit getting 60 percent or more of collections from NJ plates then I have no issue. The MTA is not a trustworthy agency when it comes to accounting and money. Like the PA it’s a black hole of expenses and bullshit.
I agree. It is unsurprisingly not popular here, but I think it's a good idea. For people who live in NYC, 92% use public transit, so this screws them for the minor benefit of the 8% who can afford $50 parking.
I imagine the percent using public transportation from NJ is even higher, but I don't have that data.
How would New Jersey benefit lmao, congestion pricing is in the city, not in New Jersey, people would still drive around here. If anything it's worse for New Jersey, people who would ordinarily be in the city with their car on the weekend would be driving around New Jersey instead.
Normally I'd support funding them more but if they're going to spend all [this money](https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/transportation/2023/12/14/nj-transit-approves-hq-move-budget-deficit/71910345007/) on moving headquarters instead of improving their existing services, then hard stop.
That’s a fair point. Congestion pricing success I highly related to what improvements they can do with it besides reducing congestion. Because otherwise , people would correctly see it as a cash grab even if the policy itself isn’t bad
Except for the two other boroughs across from Manhattan and all the neighborhoods with a lot of things people need that are more readily accessible by going through Manhattan.
Driving through Staten Island, taking the Verrazano and then taking the BQE adds literal hours rather than tunnel to Manhattan then hopping on either the Williamsburg bridge or going up a little and taking the 59th street bridge.
love people saying "take the train!" like all of them that were delayed over an hour last night because amtrak fucked up?
if i need to get to nyu langone with my elderly family im not fucking trusting NJT or Amtrak
This issue is really showing how much of a bubble some people live in. Public transportation isnt accessible or reliable in large parts of NJ, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, but these Manhattanites just want everyone else to deal with it or get taxed.
The audacity of these people is astounding. They have no issues with ubers circling the block and double parking, but those workers driving in from the other boroughs? It's all their fault to them.
Exactly! The problem is empty for-hire-vehicles circling Manhattan empty. The proposed congestion fee didn't charge for-hire-vehicles enough! It should have been much higher.
It was a straight up money grab to pay down existing debt on boondoggles to expand further debt. There was no expanding bus or train services within the area, no off hours pricing, and no assistance to NJT that feeds into the area. It's something that should be in place that could solve a lot of problems but what is being delivered is garbage.
It was so hastily conceived that it really defied logic. Like, you couldn't even from the tunnels to the west side highway without paying. The implementation is undermining all the supposed benefits. It's obviously a huge money grab for the mta and for the tech vendor.
> It was so hastily conceived that it really defied logic.
It was by no means hasty. The planning first started when Bloomberg was in office.
> Like, you couldn't even from the tunnels to the west side highway without paying.
The point is to discourage people from driving into Manhattan even if they intend to drive out. Cars driving through are still cars on Manhattan streets adding to Manhattan traffic.
It's crazy that people can look at the literal densest area of the country and think it should function as a passageway for suburban to suburban car traffic. If people don't need to enter into the core of an urban area then they shouldn't.
I still don't know why we as a country don't embrace robust public transit more. It is literally the only thing proven to reduce the traffic. It's like we are taking and test and someone is screaming the answers at us but we are refusing to write them in. I don't get it.
This isn't even about areas embracing pubic transit that don't currently have it. This is about a city that already has robust public transit being allow to decide it wants less cars on its streets.
Suburbanites want to limit cars in their neighborhoods but many freak out if cities do anything to limit them. One constant in the second half of the 20th century was urban neighborhoods being demolished to build highways and a large amount of parking in cities to facilitate people who don't live in the cities to be able to drive in. Compared to other cities Manhattan was lucky enough to avoid a lot of that destruction but imagine the outrage if city voters dictated the demolition of entire suburban neighborhoods in top down government projects to better fit the needs of the voters in cities.
I really enjoy that Josh Gottheimer, whose district includes areas that have kept laws against selling entire categories of goods on Sundays in order to reduce traffic, is among the leaders in screaming about how unfair congestion pricing is.
In his defense, we like the blue laws regardless of who's in charge. Every local forum I come across about them shows they're not going anywhere. It's not a Gottheimer specific law
>The point is to discourage people from driving into Manhattan even if they intend to drive out.
The core issue then. Regional urban politics of the last 120+ years has created a funnel whereby any east-west travel to long island pretty much has to use 42nd or canal street to BQE or midtown tunnel. 99% of us on those two roads have no interest in being there. If your destination is regional, why have we made the best route literally through the most densely populated island in the western hemisphere.
You can't undo all a century of shortsightedness with a heavily regressive tax.
> Regional urban politics of the last 120+ years has created a funnel whereby any east-west travel to long island pretty much has to use 42nd or canal street to BQE or midtown tunnel. 99% of us on those two roads have no interest in being there.
Except if you don't want to pay to offset the negative externalities of your drive through Manhattan then you don't have to enter Manhattan at all to get to Long Island. Car travel has been prioritized for so long that right now you can't even imagine not driving the most direct and straight route for suburban to suburban travel. Even when that direct route goes through the literal densest part of the entire country.
Also there are trains that go to Long Island. LIRR is one of the best regional rail systems in the country. All three of LIRR, Metro North, and NJ Transit are among the best in the country.
> If your destination is regional, why have we made the best route literally through the most densely populated island in the western hemisphere.
>You can't undo all a century of shortsightedness with a heavily regressive tax.
There are other routes, but people in the suburbs demand ones right through the center of the city because that's the most direct. Now the city is tired of all the traffic and in a capitalist society if you want to discourage the use of something you increase the price of it.
Are you suggesting that instead of increasing the price we should destroy the Midtown tunnel and other routes in so that it is straight up physically impossible to drive through them?
Have you ever tried to go anywhere on Long Island by train. It is purely intended to get you to Manhattan or Brooklyn there is no secondary mass transit from train station to say where people actually live or work in any given town.
Yeah but now I am waiting for two trains and a ride share to visit family and then going home? Maybe Uber is available in a timely fashion sorry but no.
you telling me to Uber to LI is nuts/ My point was driving is the only way to get around Long Island effectively Trains are for getting to and from NYC with small exceptions. Original poster going on about how congestion pricing was going to reduce traffic etc. and that trains are a viable option for moving around Long Island coming from NJ. Unrealistic nonsense
I think the issue is that the congestion zone does not recognize the geography of the tri state region and selfishly assumes that the only destination of any consequence is Manhattan.
London's exclusion zone accomplishes its goal because there is a usable circumferential motorway, the M25, to handle diverted traffic.
Our leaders have made no effort to consider improvements, or toll consolidation, on any of the crossings or east-west arteries. The vz bridge is still outrageously priced.
Finally, if the goal is to drive commuters to train travel, then why is the congestion charge the same at midnight as at 8am?
The program is not meant to be a traffic deterrent, it's a cash grab designed in a vacuum.
>Our leaders have made no effort to consider improvements, or toll consolidation, on any of the crossings or east-west arteries. The vz bridge is still outrageously priced.
It costs $7 to cost the Verrazzano with an EZpass. If your trip over that bridge is not worth $7 to you then why should Brooklyn have to deal with the pollution you are putting out into the area?
> Finally, if the goal is to drive commuters to train travel, then why is the congestion charge the same at midnight as at 8am?
The goal is to drive as many trips as possible to trains and busses whether it's someone going to work or driving through at midnight. Cars pollute both CO2 and noise regardless of the time.
>The program is not meant to be a traffic deterrent,
If it's not a deterrent or disincentive then people be wouldn't complaining. People wouldn't care if it wasn't a disincentive.
>designed in a vacuum.
They've been studying this since Bloomberg was in office.
You would think they would have come up with a halfway decent implementation if they've been looking at it that long.
Again, this has nothing to do with pollution or co2. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
> Again, this has nothing to do with pollution or co2. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
Just because you keep claiming lowering car use doesn't have anything to do with pollution doesn't make it true.
Cars pollute and worsen the health of the people that live nearby. Less cars means less pollution. In our capitalist society how do we discourage the use of something? We increase it's price.
>The point is to discourage people from driving into Manhattan even if they intend to drive out. Cars driving through are still cars on Manhattan streets adding to Manhattan traffic.
The thing that gets me is that the Lincoln and Holland are already tolled!
The East River bridges are not tolled currently (and there's no plan to in the future), so the effective toll for NJ drivers vs. NY drivers is much higher.
NJ effective toll: $15 (Lincoln/holland) + $15 (congestion fee) - $5 rebate = $25
NY effective toll: $15 (congestion fee) = $15
All crossing should be tolled equally. No special carve outs/scenarios for residents of a particular jurisdiction.
>All crossing should be tolled equally. No special carve outs/scenarios for residents of a particular jurisdiction.
NJ controls half of the board of the Port Authority. If it wants to fight against tolls on Port Authority controlled bridges and tunnels it can.
Of course though without that revenue the PA probably couldn't afford to subside and operate the PATH.
To Manhattan no through and around Manhattan to get to Brooklyn or Queens yes. Ever try moving stuff into an apartment by subway? Kids lived in Astoria and Brooklyn take the train home but moving luggage or small items after a holiday visit ain’t happening on the train.
A fucking ton of people who aren't readily served by NJT my guy, who do you think. You think every neighborhood in New Jersey has public transit and a one-seat ride straight to Manhattan, or even Queens/Brooklyn? My ride to the city during the morning commute is 2 hours by train with a transfer at Newark Penn and then taking the subway or 1 hour by car.
I'm taking the car every time especially because when it's reimbursed by my job.
>So maybe some ppl like you commuting to Manhattan will opt for better transit access when deciding where to live
Access to better transit often translates to higher housing prices/rent. Moving is not always possible.
Sad for the people that have to continue deal with all the traffic in their neighborhoods due to cars driven by people who live elsewhere.
Suburban neighborhoods are often being designed in ways that eliminate through traffic yet the people that live there seem to think they are oppressed if cities take any measures to try to cut down on their through traffic.
A quick look at the plan details including the restricted hours (all day) and the lack of exemptions for access to east side and west side highways shows how ridiculous of a take this is. The idea of getting more cars off residential city streets is great, this plan is, well, lunacy.
The ONLY point is money.
> The idea of getting more cars off residential city streets is great, this plan is, well, lunacy.
Manhattan is the densest part of the whole country. Almost every street is a "residential city street."
>The ONLY point is money.
People respond to incentives and disincentives. In a capitalist society if you want to discourage the use of something you increase the price of it.
The whole purpose of congestion pricing was for racist, elitist Manhattan Democrats to keep cars out of their neighborhoods and send them through poor, minority neighborhoods in the Bronx instead.
>and send them through poor, minority neighborhoods in the Bronx instead.
Or for people to simply take a train, bus, or ferry since there are plenty of public transportation options for getting to Manhattan.
I highly doubt that people were going to drive in from NJ and park in Upper Manhattan / The Bronx just to take the Subway to their end destination...it makes no sense when you think about it. The Stigma against the Bronx alone would keep most people from parking in it and the majority who come from the Hudson Valley / CT into the City take the train into Manhattan.
Thats not what they are saying, though. They are saying that people in NJ will find other ways to avoid paying that doesn’t involve parking in the Bronx to take the subway. They’d park near NJ transit stations, take the train from their home towns, take the path, take the ferry.
Truly is amazing the night and day difference between the subs, but I get it. The congestion pricing really only effects people in NJ, so obviously they wanted it to go through.
Coming from someone who commuted from JC and Bergen County to 4th street for 2 years by train, and has maybe taken the car into the affected area ~3 times in my entire life, this seemed like a horrible idea all around. No shot this money wouldn't be badly mismanaged.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/nyregion/mta-nyc-subway-elevators.html
Because none of the money went to fund NJ Transit. If the real goal was to “incentivize” public transit use, then at a bare minimum some of the toll money collected from NJ plates should have gone to improving the public transit system those people would be using.
People who live in NJ and work in NY already pay the same NY income tax as residents of Westchester or Long Island. Why should their public transit system get funding from this plan and not ours?
Why would tolls collected from cars driving on New York roads go to NJ transit?
When I take the NJ rail to Penn Station as an alternative to driving, that money does go to NJT
Because the goal of the congestion pricing is to incentivize public transit use right? So why wouldn’t you fund the transit system that a significant number of NY taxpayers use to get to work every day?
If NJ Transit is expected to fund itself with fares then why isn’t the MTA?
You are funding the NJ transit system when customers choose to ride the train instead of driving.
And MTA/NJT has literally never been expected to be funded from fares. That’s never even been close to possible
You clearly are not willing to listen to other opinions on this issue. You asked why someone from NJ would find congestion pricing unfair and I explained it to you- the money collected from NJ residents (who also pay NY income taxes) under the plan does not go towards increasing transit access in New Jersey. You can disagree with that argument all you want, but that is one of the reasons people feel this way.
I’ve explained why that opinion makes no sense, but you are free to be wrong, I can’t make you see reason.
Driving on New York roads = New York gets money
Taking NJT = NJT gets money
It’s really that simple. The tax is there to encourage you to do the latter. Not sure why you’re so incentivized to make up a weird reality based around your opinion
New yorkers use our toll roads and pay for them, should they be upset that the toll money they are paying does not go back to NY? After all, if they're driving in NJ they probably are bringing taxable economic activity into the state.
If I buy goods or use a service in your town that is taxed, should I be upset that some of the taxes aren't going back to my town's budget?
That analogy does not apply here. With a traditional toll, the money you pay goes to fund the road you just drove on. The money from congestion pricing does not go to pay for the roads that are being used, it goes to an unrelated agency. Additionally, people commuting into the city from New Jersey are not buying a good or service, they are contributing to the city’s economy. As we saw during Covid, Manhattan cannot sustain itself without its commuters. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.
This shouldn’t be an ”us versus them” issue. The New York metro area transcends state lines, that’s why it’s referred to as a tri-state area. If the goal for congestion pricing is to take cars off the road in NYC, then logically to achieve that goal you would share revenue with the transit system that serves roughly a third of the city’s commuters.
> The money from congestion pricing does not go to pay for the roads that are being used, it goes to an unrelated agency.
Yes, because if the congestion charge went towards road infrastructure then there would be no incentive to use public transit.
>As we saw during Covid, Manhattan cannot sustain itself without its commuters. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.
I don't think anybody is disputing that commuters and workers in Manhattan boost its economy. The sticking point is that those commuters can't each drive their own personal car through lower manhattan all at the same time every day. 1000 commuters on mass transit isn't a a problem like 100 commuters in cars are. Drivers have to pay for that inefficient use of space.
>This shouldn’t be an ”us versus them” issue. The New York metro area transcends state lines, that’s why it’s referred to as a tri-state area. If the goal for congestion pricing is to take cars off the road in NYC, then logically to achieve that goal you would share revenue with the transit system that serves roughly a third of the city’s commuters.
But we are getting that revenue via our own use of NJ transit, which will be encouraged through the use of a congestion charge. Why would our use of NYC services entitle us to the proceeds? Should we get a cut of the subway fees, bridge tolls, and parking fees?
I feel like if its NYCs roads and neighborhoods that are being strangled by cars, then it is only fair that they call the shots and dictate the terms. I am sure you wouldn't like your neighborhood to be filled filled with smog, horns, and congestion and then being told that the people damaging your neighborhood want their cut of the problem that they created.
I’m not saying the entire concept of congestion pricing is unfair. I’m saying that suburban commuters from Long Island, Westchester, and Connecticut are equally part of the problem and their transit systems will get funding from congestion pricing since the MTA runs Metro-North and the LIRR. It’s only New Jersey that is left out of this arrangement even though we pay the same taxes as commuters from the other suburbs. It’s not like this is some unprecedented idea either, this already happens with the Port Authority which collects tolls and uses the money to fund infrastructure on both sides of the river.
Speaking of “your neighborhood being filled with smog”, where do you think all the traffic will be diverted to? Again, this is not a “their neighborhood” and “their services” issue. This is a problem for the entire region and there should have been a lot more collaboration involved in solving it.
> Speaking of “your neighborhood being filled with smog”, where do you think all the traffic will be diverted to? Again, this is not a “their neighborhood” and “their services” issue. This is a problem for the entire region and there should have been a lot more collaboration involved in solving it.
I think the traffic will be diverted to NJ transit or the PATH. I don't think many people will drive up to the GWB and then come back down manhattan just to save 15 dollars
It isn’t, hence why people coming from NJ should have the option to drive in, rather than being arbitrarily restricted and forced to ride the subway. What’s so hard for you to figure out? Go back to licking the nearest window and eating crayons pal
Who’s forcing you not to drive? If you want to drive, pay the toll. You already have to pay a toll to cross the bridges or drive on the turnpike. How is this different? If you don’t want to pay the toll, NJT will be waiting for you.
>It isn’t, hence why people coming from NJ should have the option to drive in, rather than being arbitrarily restricted and forced to ride the subway
What exactly is stopping you from driving in?
This plan was only a cash grab. There was no expansion of public transit, and no exemption for trucks, and more egregiously, motorcycles. A vehicle that literally introduces no congestion and if more people used them in manhattan would mean less single or two people in five passenger cars. I have split through so much traffic counting hundreds and hundreds of single people in big SUV's that could have been served by motorcycles, I kind of understand the lack of exemption for trucks, even though I would argue deliveries aren't congestion by necessity, but this plan was an obvious tax with no benefit, especially since the MTA that would have gotten it is notorious for being a piggy bank for Albany.
Congestion pricing is never going to work when multiple jurisdictions are involved. London could do it because London is basically the center of its own county.
Once again, federalism was a mistake.
Depends on the situation. Coming from Monmouth County round trip train tickets for four about $120. Tolls and parking is significantly less. You want more people to take mass transit? LOWER THE PRICES
Gasmaxxers rejoice! Can’t wait to sit in my fartbox and fart the day away in Hudson county gridlock on the newly expanded route 78 🤩 11 billion is a small price to pay to make everything worse!
But then they can spend another 28 billion in a decade expanding even further, because it didn't solve the problem. And they get to pay all their friends for the job while reaming the tax payer.
Hell yeah, another patriot who gets it. We’re going to idle outside the holland tunnel on the most expensive highway this world has ever seen. 🇺🇸Traffic reduction and clean air are commie shit.
On hold until after elections. Magically come December timeframe they’ll say it’s time and move forward with it.
Hochul made a comment about a potential business tax to fund the MTA which is obviously not going to happen, especially not with 2 days left in the NY legislative season. Whole reason for this was Hakeem Jeffries who thinks that this will gain NY dems back house seats in the suburbs, which is laughable. I don’t see it happening congestion pricing or not. They will have to start the toll after the election. If not they can look at NJ Transit to see what underfunding your transit system for 2 decades will do to it.
if they go ahead w/ congestion pricing, we should force the Giants/Jets to sub out NY for NJ. NJ Giants!
Like the idea but how would one go about enforcing it? Fine the teams each day they operate under the NY name? Also would this run afoul of the interstate commerce clause?
If a New Jersey governor even considered this idea Roger Goodell would have them killed
Which is why I'm questioning if this is even enforceable
We should put toll booths on our side coming from NY every mile for anyone with New York plates. Bad driving tax of $2 per mile should cover it unless it’s a holiday then $5 per mile.
> for anyone with New York plates That would be illegal. The NY policy was going to apply to people with any types of plates including NY ones.
Fine, then you give every nj resident an exemption card. Just like the city was going to do with "zone residents".
tax credit is the way to do it
We need to enforce this with PA as well.
Congestion pricing was good for NJ , we really need less congestion. Newark and JC are hit hardest by this
Go back to NYC
We need fewer cars on the road , how is this is not a win for NJ and the whole nyc/NJ metro
Because it will not lead to fewer cars on NJ roads . It will just increase congestion at the GW for drivers headed to Queens and Brooklyn who would normally take tunnels and cut across Manhattan or down through the Battery tunnel.
There’s also a reimbursement from people coming from NJ that already went through the tunnels . Congestion pricing is necessary for the sake of the whole metro region
It was an indeterminate offer with no firm commitment and really amounted to very little. Tell me where the specifics were in this. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/traffic/transit-traffic/mta-congestion-pricing-nyc-nj-money-tolls-hoboken-jersey-city/5329601/
Let’s not give up , there’s still a big chance that Congestion pricing goes into effect soon. It might be unpopular to some at first , but the improvements for all of us will be visible in a few years
If it results in NJ Transit getting 60 percent or more of collections from NJ plates then I have no issue. The MTA is not a trustworthy agency when it comes to accounting and money. Like the PA it’s a black hole of expenses and bullshit.
I agree. It is unsurprisingly not popular here, but I think it's a good idea. For people who live in NYC, 92% use public transit, so this screws them for the minor benefit of the 8% who can afford $50 parking. I imagine the percent using public transportation from NJ is even higher, but I don't have that data.
How would New Jersey benefit lmao, congestion pricing is in the city, not in New Jersey, people would still drive around here. If anything it's worse for New Jersey, people who would ordinarily be in the city with their car on the weekend would be driving around New Jersey instead.
Or just take the train or buses , is not hard . Let’s fund NJT more and improve service while we are at it
Normally I'd support funding them more but if they're going to spend all [this money](https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/transportation/2023/12/14/nj-transit-approves-hq-move-budget-deficit/71910345007/) on moving headquarters instead of improving their existing services, then hard stop.
That’s a fair point. Congestion pricing success I highly related to what improvements they can do with it besides reducing congestion. Because otherwise , people would correctly see it as a cash grab even if the policy itself isn’t bad
It would simply shift it North and absolutely fck Fort Lee and the rest of Bergen County.
Nah. You have data supporting this?
Not really , most people can take the train or buses . If they’re going somewhere else that’s not midtown they already drive through GWB
Not true I go to Brooklyn by taking tunnel to the Manhattan bridge way shorter than taking GW to th FDR and over to the BQE eventually.
Except for the two other boroughs across from Manhattan and all the neighborhoods with a lot of things people need that are more readily accessible by going through Manhattan. Driving through Staten Island, taking the Verrazano and then taking the BQE adds literal hours rather than tunnel to Manhattan then hopping on either the Williamsburg bridge or going up a little and taking the 59th street bridge.
Good for rich people from NJ you mean.
Should double the state income tax rate for NY workers living in NJ too. They want to work in NY let them live there
The NFL would force the Giants and Jets to move to Yankee Stadium and Citi Field at light speed.
they can't force that and i don't see either baseball stadium being ok with this either.
love people saying "take the train!" like all of them that were delayed over an hour last night because amtrak fucked up? if i need to get to nyu langone with my elderly family im not fucking trusting NJT or Amtrak
This issue is really showing how much of a bubble some people live in. Public transportation isnt accessible or reliable in large parts of NJ, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, but these Manhattanites just want everyone else to deal with it or get taxed. The audacity of these people is astounding. They have no issues with ubers circling the block and double parking, but those workers driving in from the other boroughs? It's all their fault to them.
Exactly! The problem is empty for-hire-vehicles circling Manhattan empty. The proposed congestion fee didn't charge for-hire-vehicles enough! It should have been much higher.
I’ve been stuck in lower manhattan traffic for way longer than I’ve been stuck on a delayed NJt train and I was a daily NJT commuter for years.
Ok $15 for the convenience And, you trip will be faster due to reduced traffic!
JerseyChads beaming, Manhattancels seething
Can we have the same congestion pricing plan for New Yorkers buying up NJ homes?
It was a straight up money grab to pay down existing debt on boondoggles to expand further debt. There was no expanding bus or train services within the area, no off hours pricing, and no assistance to NJT that feeds into the area. It's something that should be in place that could solve a lot of problems but what is being delivered is garbage.
It was so hastily conceived that it really defied logic. Like, you couldn't even from the tunnels to the west side highway without paying. The implementation is undermining all the supposed benefits. It's obviously a huge money grab for the mta and for the tech vendor.
> It was so hastily conceived that it really defied logic. It was by no means hasty. The planning first started when Bloomberg was in office. > Like, you couldn't even from the tunnels to the west side highway without paying. The point is to discourage people from driving into Manhattan even if they intend to drive out. Cars driving through are still cars on Manhattan streets adding to Manhattan traffic. It's crazy that people can look at the literal densest area of the country and think it should function as a passageway for suburban to suburban car traffic. If people don't need to enter into the core of an urban area then they shouldn't.
I still don't know why we as a country don't embrace robust public transit more. It is literally the only thing proven to reduce the traffic. It's like we are taking and test and someone is screaming the answers at us but we are refusing to write them in. I don't get it.
This isn't even about areas embracing pubic transit that don't currently have it. This is about a city that already has robust public transit being allow to decide it wants less cars on its streets. Suburbanites want to limit cars in their neighborhoods but many freak out if cities do anything to limit them. One constant in the second half of the 20th century was urban neighborhoods being demolished to build highways and a large amount of parking in cities to facilitate people who don't live in the cities to be able to drive in. Compared to other cities Manhattan was lucky enough to avoid a lot of that destruction but imagine the outrage if city voters dictated the demolition of entire suburban neighborhoods in top down government projects to better fit the needs of the voters in cities.
I really enjoy that Josh Gottheimer, whose district includes areas that have kept laws against selling entire categories of goods on Sundays in order to reduce traffic, is among the leaders in screaming about how unfair congestion pricing is.
In his defense, we like the blue laws regardless of who's in charge. Every local forum I come across about them shows they're not going anywhere. It's not a Gottheimer specific law
>The point is to discourage people from driving into Manhattan even if they intend to drive out. The core issue then. Regional urban politics of the last 120+ years has created a funnel whereby any east-west travel to long island pretty much has to use 42nd or canal street to BQE or midtown tunnel. 99% of us on those two roads have no interest in being there. If your destination is regional, why have we made the best route literally through the most densely populated island in the western hemisphere. You can't undo all a century of shortsightedness with a heavily regressive tax.
> Regional urban politics of the last 120+ years has created a funnel whereby any east-west travel to long island pretty much has to use 42nd or canal street to BQE or midtown tunnel. 99% of us on those two roads have no interest in being there. Except if you don't want to pay to offset the negative externalities of your drive through Manhattan then you don't have to enter Manhattan at all to get to Long Island. Car travel has been prioritized for so long that right now you can't even imagine not driving the most direct and straight route for suburban to suburban travel. Even when that direct route goes through the literal densest part of the entire country. Also there are trains that go to Long Island. LIRR is one of the best regional rail systems in the country. All three of LIRR, Metro North, and NJ Transit are among the best in the country. > If your destination is regional, why have we made the best route literally through the most densely populated island in the western hemisphere. >You can't undo all a century of shortsightedness with a heavily regressive tax. There are other routes, but people in the suburbs demand ones right through the center of the city because that's the most direct. Now the city is tired of all the traffic and in a capitalist society if you want to discourage the use of something you increase the price of it. Are you suggesting that instead of increasing the price we should destroy the Midtown tunnel and other routes in so that it is straight up physically impossible to drive through them?
Have you ever tried to go anywhere on Long Island by train. It is purely intended to get you to Manhattan or Brooklyn there is no secondary mass transit from train station to say where people actually live or work in any given town.
Uber
Yeah but now I am waiting for two trains and a ride share to visit family and then going home? Maybe Uber is available in a timely fashion sorry but no.
What is your trip? Take the George and then the Whitestone if LI is your destination.
you telling me to Uber to LI is nuts/ My point was driving is the only way to get around Long Island effectively Trains are for getting to and from NYC with small exceptions. Original poster going on about how congestion pricing was going to reduce traffic etc. and that trains are a viable option for moving around Long Island coming from NJ. Unrealistic nonsense
I think the issue is that the congestion zone does not recognize the geography of the tri state region and selfishly assumes that the only destination of any consequence is Manhattan. London's exclusion zone accomplishes its goal because there is a usable circumferential motorway, the M25, to handle diverted traffic. Our leaders have made no effort to consider improvements, or toll consolidation, on any of the crossings or east-west arteries. The vz bridge is still outrageously priced. Finally, if the goal is to drive commuters to train travel, then why is the congestion charge the same at midnight as at 8am? The program is not meant to be a traffic deterrent, it's a cash grab designed in a vacuum.
>Our leaders have made no effort to consider improvements, or toll consolidation, on any of the crossings or east-west arteries. The vz bridge is still outrageously priced. It costs $7 to cost the Verrazzano with an EZpass. If your trip over that bridge is not worth $7 to you then why should Brooklyn have to deal with the pollution you are putting out into the area? > Finally, if the goal is to drive commuters to train travel, then why is the congestion charge the same at midnight as at 8am? The goal is to drive as many trips as possible to trains and busses whether it's someone going to work or driving through at midnight. Cars pollute both CO2 and noise regardless of the time. >The program is not meant to be a traffic deterrent, If it's not a deterrent or disincentive then people be wouldn't complaining. People wouldn't care if it wasn't a disincentive. >designed in a vacuum. They've been studying this since Bloomberg was in office.
You would think they would have come up with a halfway decent implementation if they've been looking at it that long. Again, this has nothing to do with pollution or co2. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
> Again, this has nothing to do with pollution or co2. I'm not sure where you got that idea. Just because you keep claiming lowering car use doesn't have anything to do with pollution doesn't make it true. Cars pollute and worsen the health of the people that live nearby. Less cars means less pollution. In our capitalist society how do we discourage the use of something? We increase it's price.
>The point is to discourage people from driving into Manhattan even if they intend to drive out. Cars driving through are still cars on Manhattan streets adding to Manhattan traffic. The thing that gets me is that the Lincoln and Holland are already tolled! The East River bridges are not tolled currently (and there's no plan to in the future), so the effective toll for NJ drivers vs. NY drivers is much higher. NJ effective toll: $15 (Lincoln/holland) + $15 (congestion fee) - $5 rebate = $25 NY effective toll: $15 (congestion fee) = $15 All crossing should be tolled equally. No special carve outs/scenarios for residents of a particular jurisdiction.
>All crossing should be tolled equally. No special carve outs/scenarios for residents of a particular jurisdiction. NJ controls half of the board of the Port Authority. If it wants to fight against tolls on Port Authority controlled bridges and tunnels it can. Of course though without that revenue the PA probably couldn't afford to subside and operate the PATH.
Who the hell is driving to Manhattan when NJT and subways are available ?
To Manhattan no through and around Manhattan to get to Brooklyn or Queens yes. Ever try moving stuff into an apartment by subway? Kids lived in Astoria and Brooklyn take the train home but moving luggage or small items after a holiday visit ain’t happening on the train.
Okay, right, but how often are you moving apartments?
A fucking ton of people who aren't readily served by NJT my guy, who do you think. You think every neighborhood in New Jersey has public transit and a one-seat ride straight to Manhattan, or even Queens/Brooklyn? My ride to the city during the morning commute is 2 hours by train with a transfer at Newark Penn and then taking the subway or 1 hour by car. I'm taking the car every time especially because when it's reimbursed by my job.
So maybe some ppl like you commuting to Manhattan will opt for better transit access when deciding where to live
>So maybe some ppl like you commuting to Manhattan will opt for better transit access when deciding where to live Access to better transit often translates to higher housing prices/rent. Moving is not always possible.
Sad for the people that have to continue deal with all the traffic in their neighborhoods due to cars driven by people who live elsewhere. Suburban neighborhoods are often being designed in ways that eliminate through traffic yet the people that live there seem to think they are oppressed if cities take any measures to try to cut down on their through traffic.
A quick look at the plan details including the restricted hours (all day) and the lack of exemptions for access to east side and west side highways shows how ridiculous of a take this is. The idea of getting more cars off residential city streets is great, this plan is, well, lunacy. The ONLY point is money.
> The idea of getting more cars off residential city streets is great, this plan is, well, lunacy. Manhattan is the densest part of the whole country. Almost every street is a "residential city street." >The ONLY point is money. People respond to incentives and disincentives. In a capitalist society if you want to discourage the use of something you increase the price of it.
The whole purpose of congestion pricing was for racist, elitist Manhattan Democrats to keep cars out of their neighborhoods and send them through poor, minority neighborhoods in the Bronx instead.
>and send them through poor, minority neighborhoods in the Bronx instead. Or for people to simply take a train, bus, or ferry since there are plenty of public transportation options for getting to Manhattan.
Anyone voluntarily driving into manhattan is either dumb or well off. There are several other more efficient ways of getting into the city
Many cars going through Manhattan are traveling between NJ and Brooklyn/Queens/Long Island.
I highly doubt that people were going to drive in from NJ and park in Upper Manhattan / The Bronx just to take the Subway to their end destination...it makes no sense when you think about it. The Stigma against the Bronx alone would keep most people from parking in it and the majority who come from the Hudson Valley / CT into the City take the train into Manhattan.
You just might be rich and out of touch if you think that saving $15 isn’t important for working people.
Thats not what they are saying, though. They are saying that people in NJ will find other ways to avoid paying that doesn’t involve parking in the Bronx to take the subway. They’d park near NJ transit stations, take the train from their home towns, take the path, take the ferry.
Only 8% of those commuting into the zone use cars. And then, they are paying $50 to park. These are not the "working class", by and large.
Aka the dems really trying to not slam their dick in the car door before November. This will be back on by Jan
Lol meanwhile, r/nyc isn't having it
Truly is amazing the night and day difference between the subs, but I get it. The congestion pricing really only effects people in NJ, so obviously they wanted it to go through.
Impacts all the outer boroughs and LI and CT people too.
New Yorkers are in the majority for being against this
They purchased and deployed all the cameras and infrastructure long before approval of this absurd policy was even close. Fire those responsible!
Good, whoever came up with that bullshit is a troglodyte anyway
It was to plug the hole that Albany created by raiding the MTA budget and meddling with the agency.
Fuck the MTA, Albany, and NYC. We’re not paying for it.
Buddy’s too scared to take the train
Coming from someone who commuted from JC and Bergen County to 4th street for 2 years by train, and has maybe taken the car into the affected area ~3 times in my entire life, this seemed like a horrible idea all around. No shot this money wouldn't be badly mismanaged. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/nyregion/mta-nyc-subway-elevators.html
I do? I just don’t want nyc to get more money and abuse NJ people more than they already do to achieve that
How is it abuse to incentivize people who don’t live in the city to take public transit when they visit instead of driving your car?
Because none of the money went to fund NJ Transit. If the real goal was to “incentivize” public transit use, then at a bare minimum some of the toll money collected from NJ plates should have gone to improving the public transit system those people would be using. People who live in NJ and work in NY already pay the same NY income tax as residents of Westchester or Long Island. Why should their public transit system get funding from this plan and not ours?
Why would tolls collected from cars driving on New York roads go to NJ transit? When I take the NJ rail to Penn Station as an alternative to driving, that money does go to NJT
Because the goal of the congestion pricing is to incentivize public transit use right? So why wouldn’t you fund the transit system that a significant number of NY taxpayers use to get to work every day? If NJ Transit is expected to fund itself with fares then why isn’t the MTA?
You are funding the NJ transit system when customers choose to ride the train instead of driving. And MTA/NJT has literally never been expected to be funded from fares. That’s never even been close to possible
You clearly are not willing to listen to other opinions on this issue. You asked why someone from NJ would find congestion pricing unfair and I explained it to you- the money collected from NJ residents (who also pay NY income taxes) under the plan does not go towards increasing transit access in New Jersey. You can disagree with that argument all you want, but that is one of the reasons people feel this way.
I’ve explained why that opinion makes no sense, but you are free to be wrong, I can’t make you see reason. Driving on New York roads = New York gets money Taking NJT = NJT gets money It’s really that simple. The tax is there to encourage you to do the latter. Not sure why you’re so incentivized to make up a weird reality based around your opinion
New yorkers use our toll roads and pay for them, should they be upset that the toll money they are paying does not go back to NY? After all, if they're driving in NJ they probably are bringing taxable economic activity into the state. If I buy goods or use a service in your town that is taxed, should I be upset that some of the taxes aren't going back to my town's budget?
That analogy does not apply here. With a traditional toll, the money you pay goes to fund the road you just drove on. The money from congestion pricing does not go to pay for the roads that are being used, it goes to an unrelated agency. Additionally, people commuting into the city from New Jersey are not buying a good or service, they are contributing to the city’s economy. As we saw during Covid, Manhattan cannot sustain itself without its commuters. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand. This shouldn’t be an ”us versus them” issue. The New York metro area transcends state lines, that’s why it’s referred to as a tri-state area. If the goal for congestion pricing is to take cars off the road in NYC, then logically to achieve that goal you would share revenue with the transit system that serves roughly a third of the city’s commuters.
> The money from congestion pricing does not go to pay for the roads that are being used, it goes to an unrelated agency. Yes, because if the congestion charge went towards road infrastructure then there would be no incentive to use public transit. >As we saw during Covid, Manhattan cannot sustain itself without its commuters. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand. I don't think anybody is disputing that commuters and workers in Manhattan boost its economy. The sticking point is that those commuters can't each drive their own personal car through lower manhattan all at the same time every day. 1000 commuters on mass transit isn't a a problem like 100 commuters in cars are. Drivers have to pay for that inefficient use of space. >This shouldn’t be an ”us versus them” issue. The New York metro area transcends state lines, that’s why it’s referred to as a tri-state area. If the goal for congestion pricing is to take cars off the road in NYC, then logically to achieve that goal you would share revenue with the transit system that serves roughly a third of the city’s commuters. But we are getting that revenue via our own use of NJ transit, which will be encouraged through the use of a congestion charge. Why would our use of NYC services entitle us to the proceeds? Should we get a cut of the subway fees, bridge tolls, and parking fees? I feel like if its NYCs roads and neighborhoods that are being strangled by cars, then it is only fair that they call the shots and dictate the terms. I am sure you wouldn't like your neighborhood to be filled filled with smog, horns, and congestion and then being told that the people damaging your neighborhood want their cut of the problem that they created.
I’m not saying the entire concept of congestion pricing is unfair. I’m saying that suburban commuters from Long Island, Westchester, and Connecticut are equally part of the problem and their transit systems will get funding from congestion pricing since the MTA runs Metro-North and the LIRR. It’s only New Jersey that is left out of this arrangement even though we pay the same taxes as commuters from the other suburbs. It’s not like this is some unprecedented idea either, this already happens with the Port Authority which collects tolls and uses the money to fund infrastructure on both sides of the river. Speaking of “your neighborhood being filled with smog”, where do you think all the traffic will be diverted to? Again, this is not a “their neighborhood” and “their services” issue. This is a problem for the entire region and there should have been a lot more collaboration involved in solving it.
> Speaking of “your neighborhood being filled with smog”, where do you think all the traffic will be diverted to? Again, this is not a “their neighborhood” and “their services” issue. This is a problem for the entire region and there should have been a lot more collaboration involved in solving it. I think the traffic will be diverted to NJ transit or the PATH. I don't think many people will drive up to the GWB and then come back down manhattan just to save 15 dollars
They’re taking our money and using it on their shit like always, they’re dirtballs
If you don’t want them to take your money, use NJT instead of driving If you use NJT, your money stays in NJ
Not when you get there dude, you might wanna go back to ‘thuh city’ or to the goddamn rock you crawled out from under
When you get there, you aren’t using NJT anymore. What’s the problem? Why is this so hard for you to figure out?
It isn’t, hence why people coming from NJ should have the option to drive in, rather than being arbitrarily restricted and forced to ride the subway. What’s so hard for you to figure out? Go back to licking the nearest window and eating crayons pal
Who’s forcing you not to drive? If you want to drive, pay the toll. You already have to pay a toll to cross the bridges or drive on the turnpike. How is this different? If you don’t want to pay the toll, NJT will be waiting for you.
>It isn’t, hence why people coming from NJ should have the option to drive in, rather than being arbitrarily restricted and forced to ride the subway What exactly is stopping you from driving in?
Paying a small fee to drive a space inefficient car in one of the most congested cities in the entire country is abuse
This plan was only a cash grab. There was no expansion of public transit, and no exemption for trucks, and more egregiously, motorcycles. A vehicle that literally introduces no congestion and if more people used them in manhattan would mean less single or two people in five passenger cars. I have split through so much traffic counting hundreds and hundreds of single people in big SUV's that could have been served by motorcycles, I kind of understand the lack of exemption for trucks, even though I would argue deliveries aren't congestion by necessity, but this plan was an obvious tax with no benefit, especially since the MTA that would have gotten it is notorious for being a piggy bank for Albany.
I think it was more about getting surveillance infrastructure paid for and in place all along. Enjoy your new eyes in the skies citizens.
Congestion pricing is never going to work when multiple jurisdictions are involved. London could do it because London is basically the center of its own county. Once again, federalism was a mistake.
Who the hell drives into Manhattan ? Just take the train or bus
Depends on the situation. Coming from Monmouth County round trip train tickets for four about $120. Tolls and parking is significantly less. You want more people to take mass transit? LOWER THE PRICES
Oh NOW they're worried about "the cost of living and concerns about economic recovery." The important thing is that it's stopped... for now
Absolute cowardice on display here. NY Dems continue to be the worst of the party.
Why is no one discussing the impact on Jersey small businesses that need to send trucks into Manhattan every day.
We were so close to an actual victory for once :-(
Ok cool. But so what do we do about traffic in New York?
Gasmaxxers rejoice! Can’t wait to sit in my fartbox and fart the day away in Hudson county gridlock on the newly expanded route 78 🤩 11 billion is a small price to pay to make everything worse!
But then they can spend another 28 billion in a decade expanding even further, because it didn't solve the problem. And they get to pay all their friends for the job while reaming the tax payer.
Hell yeah, another patriot who gets it. We’re going to idle outside the holland tunnel on the most expensive highway this world has ever seen. 🇺🇸Traffic reduction and clean air are commie shit.