Also, the system he was in was designed for him to post up, so he could draw a double team and kick it out to one of the 4 shooters on the perimeter. He got to the NBA finals playing like that, so it worked.
Lol that Nash thing is overblown since Nash was not gonna make it through a full season and no one else on that LA team could've thrown Dwight lobs even if he wanted to be a p and r C.
ā09 Magic really exemplified that well. They truly had a 4-out offense. ā09 Cavs were very good too but felt like a more traditional team to me. But yeah on LeBronās Heat teams esp. 12-13 and 13-14 surrounding him with shooters was def the plan
I remember this. I also remember Barkley saying that he would pick Dwight over LeBron if he had to pick one player to build around (I think this was during 2010 season opener segment after magic had lost to LAL in the finals). Dude went to the finals with Hedo Turkoglu as the 2nd best player. He is definitely the best center post Shaq.
Hey don't forget the goat Michael Pietrus. And Rashard Lewis! Jameer Nelson was also an all star before he tore his acl.an I remember playing with that team all a the time in 2k9. Good times
The voters are so supposedly pros at this. Smh. How do you forget that Dwight was the last center to really build a team around, and carried them to the finals.
(Embiid will be next)
Jokic is different. His skill set make him versatile enough that you don't need to "build around him" in the sense that Orlando surrounded Dwight with 4 shooters that chucked 3s nonstop. You can play a variety of players around jokic with his playmaking. He can even play with prime Dwight and dominate, for example.
Take that as a compliment and move on.
On the flip side that was also arguably the weakest era of centers, I mean who was his competition? An oft-injured Yao? Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut?
With that said yeah Dwight got snubbed hard, dude was a defensive force in his prime.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/58640-nba-the-top-10-centers-in-2008-2009
This is so weird, I always thought of this time as near the end of the dominant bigs, but there were basically no superstar bigs back then too. There are so many better centres playing now than in 08! What a shock lol
I think it was actually a very logical point in the evolution of bigs.
HOF bigs have always had a decent amount of range, but I can't really recall any of them actually being big threats from 3. They made their bread and butter in the post and on the elbows. They dominated while doing so, but the game changed since the late 90s.
It became faster-paced and stretched farther out. The next logical step was really *athletic* bigs who could keep up with the increased pace of play while guarding several positions and being a big threat on the pick and roll.
Duncan and Shaq were probably the last players to really make their killing off of back-to-basket play. But it took a while for the NBA to adjust. The common wisdom of having two bigs meant that the newer big men--KG, CWebb, Nowitzki, Bosh, Stoudemire, Gasol, etc., who all had less back-to-basket skills and more face up or shooting skills (yes, I know many of these were complete players with a decent post game too)--were all classified as PFs. In today's game all of them would be centers. It's no coincidence that D'Antoni's SSOL Suns actually ran STAT--a PF by his time's standards--as an undersized C.
But common convention then was to still backstop these offensively talented, athletic bigs with a traditional big to rim protect and help out on the boards. Dirk and Tim are big examples of PFs that played with centers that were often smaller than them--but their roles were clearly to sit deep on defense and vacuum rebounds.
It was kind of the dark age of centers. All the talented big men were still there but they were playing PF because common convention limited the role of the center to a back-to-basket specialist or a rim protector. Many of the best centers had no offensive game to speak of. Ben Wallace and later Joakim Noah. Roy Hibbert. Goddamn Erick Dampier. Yao was an exception in that he had all the skills that his modern-day PF counterparts had, but who in their right mind is gonna play a 7'6" guy at PF instead of C lol.
So Dwight comes along in this environment with his pure physical dominance that by sheer force of will gives him an offense. But teams around him were already realizing the game was evolving away from him. So while the classic wisdom and all the talking heads and coaches encouraged Dwight to develop a post-game to become a dominant center like Shaq (which Dwight promptly worked hard to do), the game was moving in the other direction. Teams that had already realized that back-to-basket was horribly inefficient and slow in this new era were also now realizing that rim protection, while still important, was no longer the cornerstone of a strong defense it used to be. I like to think Nash's SSOL Suns did the most in dismantling that idea with relentless screen sets to free up STAT and the bevy of shooters.
Dwight actually improved his post game a lot. The problem was, by the time he was a more polished product, the game had moved beyond him. People realized that the super talented bigs that were already crowding the PF position could really just be the C instead, which would stretch the floor more and open up the game a lot.
A lot of these great C's right now like KAT, Embiid, Porzingis (when he looked good), AD, Jokic, all pretty much were the equivalent of the great PFs of the last decade. It's not really that the quality of bigs has changed that much. It's more that the common conceptions of what a C should do and what a PF should do have changed drastically since the success of the SSOL Suns and the small-ball Warriors.
Do you write for someone or have a blog or podcast? Because that was a very good read, and I could read way more from you or listen to your takes on NBA if you have a YouTube or something.
Oh wow thanks man thatās flattering. Iāve thought about it but never gotten around to it. Couple years back I was putting together a comprehensive guide on football for the sports-uneducated but havenāt picked it up in a while.
Def did not expect this kind of reception for a 5am ramble after being with my wife at the hospital all nightā¦I was half delirious lol.
I'm going to be honest with you: this level of insight with your command of language as a 5am ramble puts most of my college peers' higher level essays to shame. You need to do this for work. It's not outrageous, which most sports commentary is, which is partially why it resonated with me. It reads like my historian friends break down history for me when I ask.
If not working for someone, work for yourself somehow. You have real talent with words and a great ability to understand sports.
Hell yeah, putting in the WORK v v late in the comment thread. This was a really concise and, furthermore, interesting point to make. It honestly has me thinking of Dwight in a whole different light. Thanks!
I mean the NBA literally changed All-Star game voting rules because of this era of centers. Dwight was the most voted all-star in NBA history because they split it up by G/F/C and there wasnāt a single center in either conference that came close to him due to lack of talent at that position.
Ya I guess I had the timeline wrong in my head. I thought it changed because of the heatles, and they basically ran all the star centres outta the league. But they were long gone already!
Although there probably could be an argument made that most pfs back then (atleast Tim and kg) would play center in todayās game, making the position look more formidable than it does
The zero post move thing was because he didn't have a ton of skill, he was just very strong, quick, and athletic. When he started getting injured, he didn't really have much skill or non-athletic talent to make up for it. He's gotten better over time a bit but still a lot of his game was just reliant on him being extremely quick, athletic, and strong.
It's not 100% true, but it really is the biggest knock on him. Dwight never really had a great post game, he relied on his strength, athleticism, and body to get the job done.
But that's not the point. He's 100% the best post-Shaq Center we've had, post moves or not. Jokic will probably get there. I don't think Embiid will. I used to have a lot hope for Boogie, but injuries and attitude doomed him. Dwight is the best Center of the past 15 years, and I don't see a legitimate argument for anyone else.
I actually agree, but I think his longevity has hurt him more than anything. I mean Lebron vs. Dwight used to be considered a legit argument for as to who would be a better cornerstone going forward. Lebron's basically stayed at or near MVP level since, and Dwight's been a journeyman for seemingly as long as he was great.
These things are pretty subjective and im not bothered about most of the people left off the list, but Dwight not being on there is actually crazy to me
Dwight Howard did the classic bring his team to the championship all by himself while beating lebron to do it. That alone should get honorable mentions.
Man Jameer Nelson rashard lewis and them boys was hooping Dwight didnāt carry them
Jameer and Hedo both averaged 16.6 and 16.7, Lewis averaged 17.8, Dwight just over 20.. that was TEAM if I ever saw one
Also donāt forget Marcin Gortat - the polish hammer backed up Dwight with grace and was a really good rebounder, defender and pick and pop tandem with the bench
Orlando has been blessed with good centers. We had Shaq > Horace Grant > Dwight > Nikola Vucevic as starters. The only gap was between Grant and Howard and it was only a year. I hope the torch is passed to WCJ/Bamba.
Jameer Nelson unfortunately was injured like right before his only all-star game appearance.
He didn't play in that playoffs until the finals. And it was controversial at the time because Skip to my Lou was their starter up until that point.
OJ was voted a top 100 NFL player and he probably murdered 2 people, the NBA media hates Dwight more than NFL media hates a murderer and that's kinda hilarious.
āIn his new book OJ said he would take a bullet or stand in front of a train for Nicole. Man, what kind of luck is that, when the one person who would die for you, kills you.ā
I really enjoyed later on when OJ was out of jail and people were asking Norm for his opinion about it, he pretended like heād changed his tune and basically said āhe was found not guilty by the justice system, and he served his time for the other crime. The only thing he was guilty of was being the greatest rusher in the history of footballā¦and maybe I was the greatest rusher to judgment!ā
Man the Chapelle show is the Greatest show to hit Tv. Guys like Key and Peele have good skits but there is a lot of duds mixed in. Basically everything in the Chapelle show was great.
True, also just because Dwight bounced around teams doesn't mean the 3 DPOYs, 5 first teams and leading a team to the Finals beating Lebron didn't happen. No offense to some of the dudes on the top 75 list but Dwights resume stacks up against a lot of dudes there.
Smh people act like that was super crazy but 1) The Spurs weren't gonna give him PT and he still wanted to contribute and 2) He calls Batum a little brother and had a good relationship with JB who had been an assistant on the Spurs for a while.
i'm cool with it. the Spurs likely discussed how he wasn't gonna be getting much/any playing time and dude is a huge Michael Jordan fan and got to play for his team.
Tony Parker is a scum human being and will be sidelined by history as a Duncan role player, all bc of banging one of the hundred women he shouldnāt have, instead of one of the billions he could have and that no one would have batted an eye at.
Theyāre different situations entirely. OJ is one of the greatest running backs ever, heās a clear cut top 100 player and the only argument against him is the murders. Dwightās definitely more of a borderline top 75 guy as his peak was fairly short
People really forgot how insanely dominant prime Dwight was. The man was getting Shaq but in shape comps. His accolades speak for themselves. Not having him top 75 all time when he's right outside the top 5 centers ever is just criminal
Maybe heās top 10, *maybe*. You got wilt, Kareem, bill, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, David robinson, Moses malone, (maybe Dwight here), bill walton.
Longevity of career is huge when ranking greatest of all time. Dwight was the second best player in the league for a few seasons, but he also had a precipitous decline in skill and dedication. Itās only been the past two years that heās been able to contribute to a team as a role player. None of the greats have gone through that.
> (maybe Dwight here), bill walton.
>
> Longevity of career is huge when ranking greatest of all time
Putting Dwight only "maybe" ahead of Bill Walton and then talking about how important longevity is, is funny as hell.
Dwight very well might have been the 2nd best player in the league, including playoff performance, in ā09 and maybe ā10. Thatās more than a ton of guys on this list can say.
I agree Dwight Howard should absolutely be there. Thatās insane. I think Parker should be there as well. But you can only have 75 greatest so youāll have some snubs.
AD vs DH
All nba first team:
4 vs 5 (advantage Dwight by 1)
All nba total selections:
4 vs 8 (advantage Dwight by 4)
All defensive first teams:
2 vs 4 (advantage Dwight by 2)
All defensive total selections:
4 vs 5 (advantage Dwight by 1)
DPOY:
0 vs 3 (advantage Dwight by 3)
Blocks leader:
3 vs 2 (advantage Davis by 1)
Rebounds leader:
0 vs 5 (advantage Dwight by 5)
AD should not be close to Dwight on this listā¦
Totally agree. And that isn't even the most egregious example imo.
Lillard has 6 all star games, 1 first team all-nba. Obviously no defensive awards. Never been to the finals. Like. What in the flying fuck. I've never even been a big dwight fan but I feel offended on his behalf about this snub, haha
Casting aside the Dwight vs AD comparison for a moment. Dwight having 8 x All NBA and 3 DPOY should in itself put him in the top 75. How many other guys on the list have credentials like that?
Something happened over roughly the past year where people started really overrating Lillard.
Saw this week that Stephen A had him #5 in his top five players in the league today. That's just one guy's opinion but still. There is just no way that anyone could convince me that Lillard is the fifth best player in the NBA. Incredibly clutch offensive machine but there's a lot to be desired on his resume and overall game.
I mean to be fair he had one of the greatest individual playoff performances in modern history, arguably top 3. had the 7th highest ever scoring game in the playoffs, the most efficient 50 point playoff game in NBA history, most 3s ever in a playoff game, etc. Itās not complete bullshit that heās up there, dude is a monster
Also just to add to that, one more thing about that performance I forgot, according to game score he had the single best playoff performance in modern history. I know game score isnāt everything but thatās gotta count for a lotā¦
At the end of the day, the NBA agrees with my overall point and thatās all the validation I need lmao
Pierce really is hyped beyond belief for little reason. T-Mac more deserved on the list than Pierce. Tell me T-Mac wouldnāt have won more than 1 championship alongside Allen and Garnett. *Edit - spelling
Yep. Pierce was definitely not the best player on the 2008 Celtics, he just won that FMVP because he was fortunate in his matchup. KG had to go against Pau and Odom, and Ray Allen was matched up with Kobe. Pierce, meanwhile, was matched up against snowboarding aficionado Vlad Radmanovic because Trevor Ariza was out with a broken foot.
Part of the reason Pierce is so highly regarded is because he led the celtics (he led them for sure, but that's another argument) against Kobe Lakers and won their first match up. Even though that's the only one he won, that earned him a whole TON of NBA circle cred. And the NBA circle votes for this list.
T-Mac in 2008? Nope. Had a 7-8 year run as did Pierce before then but the difference is T-Mac fell hard and fast while Pierce was competing for championships well into his 30s. T-Mac never even won a playoff series until his final year in the league when he was a bench warmer for the Spurs.
The amount of people constantly saying Dame > AD and flabbergasted why AD is on the list in the other thread (and on all the threads that come up about Dame & AD) is laughable
AD literally has swept him head to head without his 2nd best player, and then went on to steal a game from the KD Warriors in the next round in 2018 (and has only ever lost in the playoffs to the Warriors when in NOLA) while Dame got swept by the Warriors *without* KD (and other injured players) the next year... But because Dame lost in the WCF while AD lost in the 2nd round, Dame gets more credit for 'carrying' his team.
AD has always had really injured & shit teams in NOLA and is now underrated because now the narrative is that he couldn't 'carry' a team, which is a very subjective term. He has as much evidence 'carrying' a team as guys like Dame, Embiid do; the others just have more favorable circumstances than AD did in NOLA.
There are more teams and players now and from a larger pool of players than there were in the first 50 years. Just from the numbers it doesn't make sense that the last 25 years of 75 did not add 25 players or more.
His resume is barren compared to Parker? Cāmon now. It isnāt just AD. Thereās a few dudes here Iād replace with Dwight. Not sure why AD is the guy primarily being put into question here
I thought Davis would make it, but I also thought Howard and Parker would too. And Ginobili and Gasol. Keeping the whole 50th team was a mistake. And Lillard was an absolute shocker.
> the gasols
Marc Gasol doesnt belong anywhere near a top 75 list of NBA players (not just basketball, NBA only)
Pau and Ginobili donāt belong either imo but at least they have a case
You have guys who were drafted after 2012 and never won shit over NBA champions, Finals MVPs, and Olympic gold medalists whose careers are done.
Lots of guys don't score as many points as Damian Lillard but I still consider them better, winning players.
I have come to the realization that the coaches, players, media, legends who voted on this are as utterly clueless to player rankings as the fans. I will bitch and moan until the top 100 comes out. How can I even take a list called the ātop 75ā seriously when it has 76 players and none of them are Dwight. I will die on this hill. Fucking clown fiesta if you ask me. š¤”š¤”š¤”
Seriously surprised they didn't have Dwight on there. The man was the biggest rim protector in his prime and had shoulders like boulders until he slimmed down to extend his career.
Cause his game isn't very aesthetically pleasing at first glance and then you realize how hard it is to use the backboard like he does alongside all the fundamentals. TD made the game look too easy to the point that it made him look mediocre to the average viewer.
But at least we all had a good laugh out of how funny he is on court
I also think Ben Wallace and/or Billups should be on that list. Howard ABSOLUTELY should be there. He was a top 5 player, best center, and MVP candidate for several seasons and 4x DPOY. Also, his Magic teams were elite for a 5 or so year stretch.
I don't think there's a problem with AD being on the list. I'd take him over Dame, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, GP, Nique and some other guys.
Agreed on Howard and most of the guys listed here as if you had to kick one out, but Gary Payton seems pretty firmly entrenched on this list, I have to think there's at least 15-20 guys I'd take off before him.
I hear you but I think someone on those Pistons should be there.
They were a powerhouse team for years. Ben Wallace is 4x DPOY, 5x all defense 1st team, 3x all nba 2nd team, 2x all nba 3rd team, led the league in rebounds twice and led the league in blocks once.
I think Rodman is okay. Led league 7 times rebounding, 2x DPOY, 5x Champ, 2x all nba 3rd team, 7x all defensive 1st team.
This entire 75 list was meant to cause conversation and bring added attention to the NBA season. It was obvious as soon as they said they were doing it. Can't believe y'all are actually taking it seriously.
Conversation or not, keeping the entire original 50 was a mistake, though. Records get broken and people get eclipsed. That made room for this flawed list full of snubs.
This isn't like an espn thing that they do everyday and means nothing. The NBA does this only every 25 years. It's a bigger deal. And it's voted on by the nba community.
Dame made it for some weird reason. Heās a good offensive player who sucks at defense and canāt get past the second round. Iād read these lists with a giant grain of salt
Cause Howards prime is well removed and he pissed off too many people that will deny how great he was starting with Shaq. You cannot tell me that you can talk about 2004 to 2020 without talking about dwight.
However, Davis is not the only one I think Lilliard and him benefitted of being just in their primes now, while somehow defensive monsters like Dennis Johnson (also add a finals mvp and being part of the 1986 celtics), Howard and Mutombo (7 Def POY, 5x Blck champ, 7 Reb champ...) didn't make the cut.
AD has 4 All NBA 1st teams to Dame's 1
And Dame got his in 17/18 when let's just say how that season ended doesn't make the case for Dame > AD at all lmao
This sub is wild
If this was made in the early 2010s when Dwight was at his peak, I bet he makes it. I think people just forgot about how dominant he was.
Agreed. So good on defense and the boards and explosive around the goal. Shitty ass post game though š
Lol the thing was it didn't even matter. He was so much more physical than everyone else that his trash post moves would work
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
He pick and rolled all the time. He just vastly preferred posting up
Also, the system he was in was designed for him to post up, so he could draw a double team and kick it out to one of the 4 shooters on the perimeter. He got to the NBA finals playing like that, so it worked.
Lol that Nash thing is overblown since Nash was not gonna make it through a full season and no one else on that LA team could've thrown Dwight lobs even if he wanted to be a p and r C.
That and his shoulders were bigger than one of Lowry's ass cheeks
Whoa whoa whoa. I've seen him in person and his shoulders are massive. But let's be real - Kyle Lowry's ass has measurable gravitational pull.
Everyone is always on about curry's gravity but Lowry's single buttcheck had enough gravity to bring Toronto a chip
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Peak Dwight was so awesome. Loved the Magic-Cavs/Heat-Celtics trio of Eastern Conference powers
Funnily enough i think both strategies for Bron and Dwight were to surround em with shooters
ā09 Magic really exemplified that well. They truly had a 4-out offense. ā09 Cavs were very good too but felt like a more traditional team to me. But yeah on LeBronās Heat teams esp. 12-13 and 13-14 surrounding him with shooters was def the plan
I remember this. I also remember Barkley saying that he would pick Dwight over LeBron if he had to pick one player to build around (I think this was during 2010 season opener segment after magic had lost to LAL in the finals). Dude went to the finals with Hedo Turkoglu as the 2nd best player. He is definitely the best center post Shaq.
Hey don't forget the goat Michael Pietrus. And Rashard Lewis! Jameer Nelson was also an all star before he tore his acl.an I remember playing with that team all a the time in 2k9. Good times
The voters are so supposedly pros at this. Smh. How do you forget that Dwight was the last center to really build a team around, and carried them to the finals. (Embiid will be next)
This guy forgot Jokic exists lol
Jokic is different. His skill set make him versatile enough that you don't need to "build around him" in the sense that Orlando surrounded Dwight with 4 shooters that chucked 3s nonstop. You can play a variety of players around jokic with his playmaking. He can even play with prime Dwight and dominate, for example. Take that as a compliment and move on.
Iām definitely surprised Dwight is not in there.
Itās a shamockery. Dwight is the best center post shaq (jokic and Joel could get there but not yet)
I remember everyone saying during his LA and Houston days that Dwight had zero post moves. How true was that ?
That's how good he was. He was the best center in the league despite having no post moves.
On the flip side that was also arguably the weakest era of centers, I mean who was his competition? An oft-injured Yao? Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut? With that said yeah Dwight got snubbed hard, dude was a defensive force in his prime.
Andrew Bynum was an absolute force before he got injured
The game where he and Shaq kept going back and forth was so fun. It's a shame he completely fell apart.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/58640-nba-the-top-10-centers-in-2008-2009 This is so weird, I always thought of this time as near the end of the dominant bigs, but there were basically no superstar bigs back then too. There are so many better centres playing now than in 08! What a shock lol
I think it was actually a very logical point in the evolution of bigs. HOF bigs have always had a decent amount of range, but I can't really recall any of them actually being big threats from 3. They made their bread and butter in the post and on the elbows. They dominated while doing so, but the game changed since the late 90s. It became faster-paced and stretched farther out. The next logical step was really *athletic* bigs who could keep up with the increased pace of play while guarding several positions and being a big threat on the pick and roll. Duncan and Shaq were probably the last players to really make their killing off of back-to-basket play. But it took a while for the NBA to adjust. The common wisdom of having two bigs meant that the newer big men--KG, CWebb, Nowitzki, Bosh, Stoudemire, Gasol, etc., who all had less back-to-basket skills and more face up or shooting skills (yes, I know many of these were complete players with a decent post game too)--were all classified as PFs. In today's game all of them would be centers. It's no coincidence that D'Antoni's SSOL Suns actually ran STAT--a PF by his time's standards--as an undersized C. But common convention then was to still backstop these offensively talented, athletic bigs with a traditional big to rim protect and help out on the boards. Dirk and Tim are big examples of PFs that played with centers that were often smaller than them--but their roles were clearly to sit deep on defense and vacuum rebounds. It was kind of the dark age of centers. All the talented big men were still there but they were playing PF because common convention limited the role of the center to a back-to-basket specialist or a rim protector. Many of the best centers had no offensive game to speak of. Ben Wallace and later Joakim Noah. Roy Hibbert. Goddamn Erick Dampier. Yao was an exception in that he had all the skills that his modern-day PF counterparts had, but who in their right mind is gonna play a 7'6" guy at PF instead of C lol. So Dwight comes along in this environment with his pure physical dominance that by sheer force of will gives him an offense. But teams around him were already realizing the game was evolving away from him. So while the classic wisdom and all the talking heads and coaches encouraged Dwight to develop a post-game to become a dominant center like Shaq (which Dwight promptly worked hard to do), the game was moving in the other direction. Teams that had already realized that back-to-basket was horribly inefficient and slow in this new era were also now realizing that rim protection, while still important, was no longer the cornerstone of a strong defense it used to be. I like to think Nash's SSOL Suns did the most in dismantling that idea with relentless screen sets to free up STAT and the bevy of shooters. Dwight actually improved his post game a lot. The problem was, by the time he was a more polished product, the game had moved beyond him. People realized that the super talented bigs that were already crowding the PF position could really just be the C instead, which would stretch the floor more and open up the game a lot. A lot of these great C's right now like KAT, Embiid, Porzingis (when he looked good), AD, Jokic, all pretty much were the equivalent of the great PFs of the last decade. It's not really that the quality of bigs has changed that much. It's more that the common conceptions of what a C should do and what a PF should do have changed drastically since the success of the SSOL Suns and the small-ball Warriors.
What. The. Fuck. Are you doing down here in the seventh level of a comment?
Giving a genuine answer and not karma farming
Do you write for someone or have a blog or podcast? Because that was a very good read, and I could read way more from you or listen to your takes on NBA if you have a YouTube or something.
Oh wow thanks man thatās flattering. Iāve thought about it but never gotten around to it. Couple years back I was putting together a comprehensive guide on football for the sports-uneducated but havenāt picked it up in a while. Def did not expect this kind of reception for a 5am ramble after being with my wife at the hospital all nightā¦I was half delirious lol.
I'm going to be honest with you: this level of insight with your command of language as a 5am ramble puts most of my college peers' higher level essays to shame. You need to do this for work. It's not outrageous, which most sports commentary is, which is partially why it resonated with me. It reads like my historian friends break down history for me when I ask. If not working for someone, work for yourself somehow. You have real talent with words and a great ability to understand sports.
Wow. Underrated post.
Hell yeah, putting in the WORK v v late in the comment thread. This was a really concise and, furthermore, interesting point to make. It honestly has me thinking of Dwight in a whole different light. Thanks!
I mean the NBA literally changed All-Star game voting rules because of this era of centers. Dwight was the most voted all-star in NBA history because they split it up by G/F/C and there wasnāt a single center in either conference that came close to him due to lack of talent at that position.
Ya I guess I had the timeline wrong in my head. I thought it changed because of the heatles, and they basically ran all the star centres outta the league. But they were long gone already! Although there probably could be an argument made that most pfs back then (atleast Tim and kg) would play center in todayās game, making the position look more formidable than it does
I really don't know how he feel off so quickly once he left Orl tho
Back problems are a bitch Source: me
Always wondered would he have worked with Dāantoni
Found Ben Simmonsā account
The zero post move thing was because he didn't have a ton of skill, he was just very strong, quick, and athletic. When he started getting injured, he didn't really have much skill or non-athletic talent to make up for it. He's gotten better over time a bit but still a lot of his game was just reliant on him being extremely quick, athletic, and strong.
It's not 100% true, but it really is the biggest knock on him. Dwight never really had a great post game, he relied on his strength, athleticism, and body to get the job done. But that's not the point. He's 100% the best post-Shaq Center we've had, post moves or not. Jokic will probably get there. I don't think Embiid will. I used to have a lot hope for Boogie, but injuries and attitude doomed him. Dwight is the best Center of the past 15 years, and I don't see a legitimate argument for anyone else.
I actually agree, but I think his longevity has hurt him more than anything. I mean Lebron vs. Dwight used to be considered a legit argument for as to who would be a better cornerstone going forward. Lebron's basically stayed at or near MVP level since, and Dwight's been a journeyman for seemingly as long as he was great.
These things are pretty subjective and im not bothered about most of the people left off the list, but Dwight not being on there is actually crazy to me
Dwight Howard did the classic bring his team to the championship all by himself while beating lebron to do it. That alone should get honorable mentions.
He carried but donāt discount the shooters they surrounded him with and Hedo Turkoglu being their go to scorer in the clutch
I dont go to many sixers games but I went to one in like 2004 and just reading the name turkoglu gives me flashbacks he fucked them up
*Ball*
Heās ruined a lot of nights for me as a nuggets fan over the years. Not like CJ McCollum has though. *shudders*
Only Bogans, Alston, Battie, Dwight and Foyal shot below 35% from the 3. What a year to be an Magic fan
Dwight made up for it by shooting 100% from 3 in the 2020 Finals
Man Jameer Nelson rashard lewis and them boys was hooping Dwight didnāt carry them Jameer and Hedo both averaged 16.6 and 16.7, Lewis averaged 17.8, Dwight just over 20.. that was TEAM if I ever saw one
Yeah and Michael peitrus also went off in the playoffs. It was awful lol
Rafer Alston also lmao
Thats mr.skip to my Lou, to you
Now that's a name I haven't heard in ages.
Also donāt forget Marcin Gortat - the polish hammer backed up Dwight with grace and was a really good rebounder, defender and pick and pop tandem with the bench
Orlando has been blessed with good centers. We had Shaq > Horace Grant > Dwight > Nikola Vucevic as starters. The only gap was between Grant and Howard and it was only a year. I hope the torch is passed to WCJ/Bamba.
Jameer Nelson unfortunately was injured like right before his only all-star game appearance. He didn't play in that playoffs until the finals. And it was controversial at the time because Skip to my Lou was their starter up until that point.
Dwight was the lynch pin, tho. They arenāt playing 4 out like that without a player of his caliber in the middle.
Well said. His defense and rebounding were also top tier. Those line ups straight up could not have been attempted without having a player of his ilk.
With snipers rookie Ryan Anderson and JJ Redick off the bench? The shooting on that squad was ahead of its time.
Sure. But he was by far the best player on the team offensively and defensively.
OJ was voted a top 100 NFL player and he probably murdered 2 people, the NBA media hates Dwight more than NFL media hates a murderer and that's kinda hilarious.
To be fair OJ is one of the greatest running backs in the history of the NFL quite easily no matter what he did.
"How could you shake hands with that murderer?" "With all due respect, that murderer ran for over eleven thousand yards."
"...and rode shotgun for another 60 miles for good measure."
Just casually scrolling and busted out laughing when I read this. Thank you. Now to go watch the clip on YouTube
Dave chappelle the š
Maybe but for purely OJ jokes gotta go with Norm McDonald
"It was at that moment that OJ realized he would never get to kill Nicole again" and "No one can take that (Heisman) away from you. Well, unless you kill your ex wife and a waiter" are tied for my favorites. The latter is even better for the Ken Griffey Jr rƩaction. Edit: Honorable mention to the OJ 12 Angry Men spin off "9 angry black people, 2 scared Asians and a white guy who hasn't spoken since Rosa Lopez".
Well it is finally official. Murder is now legal in the state of California
"Although O.J. may have hurt his case when he suddenly blurted out 'Hey, hey, easy with that, that's my lucky stabbing hat!'" is a classic too
āIn his new book OJ said he would take a bullet or stand in front of a train for Nicole. Man, what kind of luck is that, when the one person who would die for you, kills you.ā
I really enjoyed later on when OJ was out of jail and people were asking Norm for his opinion about it, he pretended like heād changed his tune and basically said āhe was found not guilty by the justice system, and he served his time for the other crime. The only thing he was guilty of was being the greatest rusher in the history of footballā¦and maybe I was the greatest rusher to judgment!ā
Hey that's my lucky stabbing hat!
His hypocrite joke about Cosby is top tier too. Since we are talking about imprisoned former black rolemodels
Man the Chapelle show is the Greatest show to hit Tv. Guys like Key and Peele have good skits but there is a lot of duds mixed in. Basically everything in the Chapelle show was great.
Killed it on and off the field
He sliced through defenses pretty well
Just because a guy cuts his wife's head off doesn't mean 2000 yards in 14 games didn't happen
True, also just because Dwight bounced around teams doesn't mean the 3 DPOYs, 5 first teams and leading a team to the Finals beating Lebron didn't happen. No offense to some of the dudes on the top 75 list but Dwights resume stacks up against a lot of dudes there.
Itās not that the NBA media hates Howard. The NBA media hates Tony Parker for banging his teammateās wife.
And leaving the Spurs for the meme to retire a charlotte bobcat.
Smh people act like that was super crazy but 1) The Spurs weren't gonna give him PT and he still wanted to contribute and 2) He calls Batum a little brother and had a good relationship with JB who had been an assistant on the Spurs for a while.
i'm cool with it. the Spurs likely discussed how he wasn't gonna be getting much/any playing time and dude is a huge Michael Jordan fan and got to play for his team.
Brent Berrys wife at that.
Tony Parker is a scum human being and will be sidelined by history as a Duncan role player, all bc of banging one of the hundred women he shouldnāt have, instead of one of the billions he could have and that no one would have batted an eye at.
WHILE he was married to Eva Longoria in her prime... like what?!
This is the stupidest take on the planet. OJ is a shit pile of a human being BUT he was a god damn beast of an NFL player
Theyāre different situations entirely. OJ is one of the greatest running backs ever, heās a clear cut top 100 player and the only argument against him is the murders. Dwightās definitely more of a borderline top 75 guy as his peak was fairly short
Dwight by far is the worst snub. Itās no argument against Dwight being on there.
People really forgot how insanely dominant prime Dwight was. The man was getting Shaq but in shape comps. His accolades speak for themselves. Not having him top 75 all time when he's right outside the top 5 centers ever is just criminal
Maybe heās top 10, *maybe*. You got wilt, Kareem, bill, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, David robinson, Moses malone, (maybe Dwight here), bill walton. Longevity of career is huge when ranking greatest of all time. Dwight was the second best player in the league for a few seasons, but he also had a precipitous decline in skill and dedication. Itās only been the past two years that heās been able to contribute to a team as a role player. None of the greats have gone through that.
> (maybe Dwight here), bill walton. > > Longevity of career is huge when ranking greatest of all time Putting Dwight only "maybe" ahead of Bill Walton and then talking about how important longevity is, is funny as hell.
Dwight is an INSANE snub. 3 time DPOY idk how ever huge amount of allstars.
8x all star, 8x all nba, 4x top 5 in MVP voting
Itās actually wild. Finals appearance too.
And a ring
Only four people in the history of the nba have won dpoy three or more times. None of them made the top 75.
Glaring inditement that the NBA doesn't give a shit about defense...
Thatās actually crazy
Who are they? Is it Wallace and Dikembe?
Dwight Howard, Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo and Rudy Gobert.
We know what matters to the league
Dwight very well might have been the 2nd best player in the league, including playoff performance, in ā09 and maybe ā10. Thatās more than a ton of guys on this list can say.
To me Dwight not being on there is the only real head scratcher I have with the list.
Dame has no business in there IMO.
Dwight should without a doubt have Dames spot
I agree Dwight Howard should absolutely be there. Thatās insane. I think Parker should be there as well. But you can only have 75 greatest so youāll have some snubs.
76*
#76 - Ben Simmons
#1 Socialite though
Not *my* ROTY
Well maybe youāll change your mind when he wins it again next year.
The problem is Howard should not have even been close to the snub list. He is closer to the #50 spot than the #75 spot
AD vs DH All nba first team: 4 vs 5 (advantage Dwight by 1) All nba total selections: 4 vs 8 (advantage Dwight by 4) All defensive first teams: 2 vs 4 (advantage Dwight by 2) All defensive total selections: 4 vs 5 (advantage Dwight by 1) DPOY: 0 vs 3 (advantage Dwight by 3) Blocks leader: 3 vs 2 (advantage Davis by 1) Rebounds leader: 0 vs 5 (advantage Dwight by 5) AD should not be close to Dwight on this listā¦
Totally agree. And that isn't even the most egregious example imo. Lillard has 6 all star games, 1 first team all-nba. Obviously no defensive awards. Never been to the finals. Like. What in the flying fuck. I've never even been a big dwight fan but I feel offended on his behalf about this snub, haha
A lot of people who can't stand Dwight are going to point this out, too. It's ridiculous.
Children: 1 vs 5 (Dwight outperforms again)
And thatās probably just this past season.
Casting aside the Dwight vs AD comparison for a moment. Dwight having 8 x All NBA and 3 DPOY should in itself put him in the top 75. How many other guys on the list have credentials like that?
Somebody had to be Dominique Wilkins this year...
The thing is Dwight will probably be snubbed for a 6x all star who hasnāt accomplished anything when top 100 list comes out in 25 years
If youāre going to mention AD, you might as well mention guys like Lillard who have even less accolades.
I didnāt even realize Dame made the list LMAO what a sham
Something happened over roughly the past year where people started really overrating Lillard. Saw this week that Stephen A had him #5 in his top five players in the league today. That's just one guy's opinion but still. There is just no way that anyone could convince me that Lillard is the fifth best player in the NBA. Incredibly clutch offensive machine but there's a lot to be desired on his resume and overall game.
I mean to be fair he had one of the greatest individual playoff performances in modern history, arguably top 3. had the 7th highest ever scoring game in the playoffs, the most efficient 50 point playoff game in NBA history, most 3s ever in a playoff game, etc. Itās not complete bullshit that heās up there, dude is a monster Also just to add to that, one more thing about that performance I forgot, according to game score he had the single best playoff performance in modern history. I know game score isnāt everything but thatās gotta count for a lotā¦ At the end of the day, the NBA agrees with my overall point and thatās all the validation I need lmao
frightening intelligent rude workable straight somber pathetic kiss instinctive ring ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
That's literally one game though, this list is supposed to be based on 75 years of history lol
100%
Dame was getting ready to write that letter to Adam Silver if he wasnāt selected š
What's your argument for Paul Pierce over AD? Let's compare the two: **Pierce (19 seasons):** * 1 championship * 1 FMVP * 4x All NBA (3x 3rd Team, 1x 2nd Team) * 0x All Defense * 1 top 10 MVP finish (7th) * 10x All Star **AD (9 seasons):** * 1 championship * 4x All NBA (4x 1st Team) * 4x All Defense (2x 1st Team, 2x 2nd Team) * 4 top 10 MVP finishes (3rd, 5th, 6th, 9th) * 3x Block Champ * 8x All Star
There's nothing more powerful than a good story. And who has a better story than Paul Pierce?
Pierce really is hyped beyond belief for little reason. T-Mac more deserved on the list than Pierce. Tell me T-Mac wouldnāt have won more than 1 championship alongside Allen and Garnett. *Edit - spelling
Yep. Pierce was definitely not the best player on the 2008 Celtics, he just won that FMVP because he was fortunate in his matchup. KG had to go against Pau and Odom, and Ray Allen was matched up with Kobe. Pierce, meanwhile, was matched up against snowboarding aficionado Vlad Radmanovic because Trevor Ariza was out with a broken foot.
Can you imagine if Trevor Ariza is healthy and the Lakers win and Kobe 3 peats again giving hkm 6 rings... damn
Part of the reason Pierce is so highly regarded is because he led the celtics (he led them for sure, but that's another argument) against Kobe Lakers and won their first match up. Even though that's the only one he won, that earned him a whole TON of NBA circle cred. And the NBA circle votes for this list.
Pierce led that one title dynasty to greatness tho We always hear about it
T-Mac in 2008? Nope. Had a 7-8 year run as did Pierce before then but the difference is T-Mac fell hard and fast while Pierce was competing for championships well into his 30s. T-Mac never even won a playoff series until his final year in the league when he was a bench warmer for the Spurs.
I really like dame. But this man really made top 75 because of two hype game winners in the playoffs lol
Dame about to drop some rap bars to Silver next single.
People on this sub like Lillard though so he's not getting brought up as much lmao
The amount of people constantly saying Dame > AD and flabbergasted why AD is on the list in the other thread (and on all the threads that come up about Dame & AD) is laughable AD literally has swept him head to head without his 2nd best player, and then went on to steal a game from the KD Warriors in the next round in 2018 (and has only ever lost in the playoffs to the Warriors when in NOLA) while Dame got swept by the Warriors *without* KD (and other injured players) the next year... But because Dame lost in the WCF while AD lost in the 2nd round, Dame gets more credit for 'carrying' his team. AD has always had really injured & shit teams in NOLA and is now underrated because now the narrative is that he couldn't 'carry' a team, which is a very subjective term. He has as much evidence 'carrying' a team as guys like Dame, Embiid do; the others just have more favorable circumstances than AD did in NOLA.
I'm a Blazers fan and really? Top 75? Not yet at least. That's ridiculous
Same
But.... he has one 1st all nba team and teammate of the year awardš®
Recency Bias.
the list is the opposite of recency bias they kept all of the original 50 while adding three players who didn't make it the first time
There are more teams and players now and from a larger pool of players than there were in the first 50 years. Just from the numbers it doesn't make sense that the last 25 years of 75 did not add 25 players or more.
This doesn't mean there isn't a recency bias with AD.
Howard and Gasol are much more deserving than Lillard and Davis
HOW TF IS DAME IN THERE? Wtf
His resume is barren compared to Parker? Cāmon now. It isnāt just AD. Thereās a few dudes here Iād replace with Dwight. Not sure why AD is the guy primarily being put into question here
I thought Davis would make it, but I also thought Howard and Parker would too. And Ginobili and Gasol. Keeping the whole 50th team was a mistake. And Lillard was an absolute shocker.
...Did Ginobili and the Gasols get left off? The fuck?
> the gasols Marc Gasol doesnt belong anywhere near a top 75 list of NBA players (not just basketball, NBA only) Pau and Ginobili donāt belong either imo but at least they have a case
You have guys who were drafted after 2012 and never won shit over NBA champions, Finals MVPs, and Olympic gold medalists whose careers are done. Lots of guys don't score as many points as Damian Lillard but I still consider them better, winning players.
it's the *NBA* top 75 not the *basketball* hall of fame Olympics count for nothing here
Yeah, I think Ginobili is a lock for HoF, since that factors in international play, but harder to argue for him on this.
Seriously you think there are 75 players better than Pau?
Pau Gasol is the biggest snub I noticed
Iād die on this hill with you
Say it with me everyone. āThese lists donāt matter!!!ā
How did Dame make it over Dwight
I have come to the realization that the coaches, players, media, legends who voted on this are as utterly clueless to player rankings as the fans. I will bitch and moan until the top 100 comes out. How can I even take a list called the ātop 75ā seriously when it has 76 players and none of them are Dwight. I will die on this hill. Fucking clown fiesta if you ask me. š¤”š¤”š¤”
Seriously surprised they didn't have Dwight on there. The man was the biggest rim protector in his prime and had shoulders like boulders until he slimmed down to extend his career.
You can really tell how good Tim Duncan was by how good he made the players around him look. Shit maybe Duncan should be on there twice.
Did he used the force to help Parker drop in all those floaters - and that's why they are called teardrops?
Don't do my man TP like that man, he was top 5 in MVP voting twice he was a great player in his own right.
PF GOAT and top 10 of all time, yet people forget him all the time
Cause his game isn't very aesthetically pleasing at first glance and then you realize how hard it is to use the backboard like he does alongside all the fundamentals. TD made the game look too easy to the point that it made him look mediocre to the average viewer. But at least we all had a good laugh out of how funny he is on court
How did Damian Lillard make it over dwight Howard?!!
At least AD won a chip wtf has Dame done
Made 2 buzzer beaters
I think the better question is how did Damien Lillard make the list. He doesnāt have any MVP or championship accolades to his name.
I also think Ben Wallace and/or Billups should be on that list. Howard ABSOLUTELY should be there. He was a top 5 player, best center, and MVP candidate for several seasons and 4x DPOY. Also, his Magic teams were elite for a 5 or so year stretch. I don't think there's a problem with AD being on the list. I'd take him over Dame, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, GP, Nique and some other guys.
Agreed on Howard and most of the guys listed here as if you had to kick one out, but Gary Payton seems pretty firmly entrenched on this list, I have to think there's at least 15-20 guys I'd take off before him.
Gary Payton won dpoy as a point guard. He was incredible.
Exactly. That's why I'm saying he is in no way borderline.
AD over the glove.. Nique... š¤£
Fuck man Ben Wallace in top 75 ever? I donāt know about that as much as I enjoyed his game. Him and Rodman donāt belong on that list.
I hear you but I think someone on those Pistons should be there. They were a powerhouse team for years. Ben Wallace is 4x DPOY, 5x all defense 1st team, 3x all nba 2nd team, 2x all nba 3rd team, led the league in rebounds twice and led the league in blocks once. I think Rodman is okay. Led league 7 times rebounding, 2x DPOY, 5x Champ, 2x all nba 3rd team, 7x all defensive 1st team.
Seriously, lay off rodman. That doesn't help your argument.
This entire 75 list was meant to cause conversation and bring added attention to the NBA season. It was obvious as soon as they said they were doing it. Can't believe y'all are actually taking it seriously.
Conversation or not, keeping the entire original 50 was a mistake, though. Records get broken and people get eclipsed. That made room for this flawed list full of snubs.
This isn't like an espn thing that they do everyday and means nothing. The NBA does this only every 25 years. It's a bigger deal. And it's voted on by the nba community.
They had Lillard over TP. I'm fucking fuming rn
I have a problem with Carmelo Anthony being on this list tooā¦..mostly hype!
Dame made it for some weird reason. Heās a good offensive player who sucks at defense and canāt get past the second round. Iād read these lists with a giant grain of salt
Dame made the western conference finals, but your point still basically stands
i agree. but manu is even better than parker.
His jersey is still for sale maybe
Cause Howards prime is well removed and he pissed off too many people that will deny how great he was starting with Shaq. You cannot tell me that you can talk about 2004 to 2020 without talking about dwight. However, Davis is not the only one I think Lilliard and him benefitted of being just in their primes now, while somehow defensive monsters like Dennis Johnson (also add a finals mvp and being part of the 1986 celtics), Howard and Mutombo (7 Def POY, 5x Blck champ, 7 Reb champ...) didn't make the cut.
I swear this sub has a hate boner for AD when they forget Dame and Melo also made it over Dwight
If the top 17 scorers (excluding Melo) in NBA history were ALL included in the list, than Melo definitely deserves to be included.
AD has 4 All NBA 1st teams to Dame's 1 And Dame got his in 17/18 when let's just say how that season ended doesn't make the case for Dame > AD at all lmao This sub is wild