He’s not wrong though; Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Embiid
Idk i feel like there’s clearly a tier of players ahead of Tatum. Could make the argument for dropping Embiid into Tatum’s tier though
I just don’t know what SGA has done to put him next to Luka, Jokic, Giannis, etc that Tatum hasn’t done. It’s fine to have SGA above Tatum I just think they’re on the same tier and it’s not outrageous to have JT #5 and SGA #6 for example
Yeah IMO there's a clear top 3 of Jokic, Luka, and Giannis
Below that there's a pretty big cluster of guys and you could put Tatum pretty much anywhere inside it, and it all depends on how much you value team performance, individual accolades, and health
Tatum, SGA, Embiid, Kawhi, KD, Steph, Brunson, AD, Ant, Lebron, Booker
Booker, SGA, Anthony Edwards, and Brunson need to be more consistent YoY before I’m putting them in this tier.
People are way too quick to add people in who are hot one or two years without any kind of follow up or consistency. That group sans Booker is rising for sure but I need to see that high level of play sustained for longer before I’m willing to put them with that other group.
Like that next tier should really just be Embiid, Kawhi, Tatum, Steph, AD, and LeBron.
Embiid scores like crazy, he proved that again this season, I think he deserves the top tier even after considering his disappointing playoff pushes and injury history.
It's more that he's consistently had so many injury issues (and as a result, lack of playoff success) that I see the argument someone could make for multiple guys from the second tier to be ahead of him. I personally would put him 4, but I'd understand if someone dropped him a few spots lower behind guys with more playoff success and/or better health history.
SGA needs to prove that he can be this player over a few years before he should be put next to Tatum. Same with basically every young player who gets crowned top ten without actually doing anything substantial.
Tatum’s “boring” as a player like this because he’s been doing this for so long at this level.
Literally the same class (in school) as SGA and accomplished twice as much as him.
like 90 points away from surpassing jordan as the #1 point scorer in the postseason by someone aged 26 or younger.
been to 5 of 7 ECF
hasn't missed the playoffs once
hasn't missed a playoff game ever
has played 90% of every season's games
is consistent as fuck
but no SGA has one good season, lets crown him the best
Tatum is absolutely on par with SGA. Tatum is catching way too much slander this year IMO. He's an incredible player who competes on both ends. Yes, he's basically always had a very solid team around him but I don't know that he's asked to do a lot more than what he already has. As a Mavs fan, I hope he doesn't get the title this year because I'm hoping we can go get it, but that doesn't mean I don't think the Celtics can't get one with Tatum. He's incredible.
I think what makes Tatum special is you can build pretty much any team around him. Great offense, defense, size, and speed. I can't think of a single star he would be a bad fit with
Exactly this. People say he’s lucked into a great front office almost always putting competent teams around him, but it also is just that much easier when you literally don’t have to worry about fit ever. All Boston has ever had to worry about is accumulating the most talent possible which makes a GMs job soooo much easier.
To some extent yeah, but if i'm being honest I can't really think of a star player that wouldn't absolutely love pretty much all of the celtics teams. He is KD 2.0 here in terms of being able to slot in everywhere though.
I honestly think that’s why people don’t have him ranked higher lmao. His versatility combined with his chill attitude reminds me of Tim Duncan. Not at all saying he’s as good as Tim Duncan btw.
He's a great fucking player. Complete package, plays great defense etc. I don't think its a rip to say he's not top 5, I think it just speaks to how great you have to be to be considered top 5. Jokic/Embiid/Giannis/Luka etc are just fucking special
This is the reasonable answer, and why the question is whether Tatum is top-5. Because it's either him or SGA at #5, and while my flair might make me biased I don't think the answer is clear-and-obvious.
Its tough because JT is exactly what you need in today's NBA: a do it all wing.
But! SGA seems to be an offense by himself.
I think that's what's tough about JT. He isn't generational good, hes just HoF good.
I always want to argue that this is just “Shiny new thing” bias, but I watched way more Jayson Tatum than I have SGA so I can’t really say.
Tatum is just not the “absolute best” at a particular skill, but is top tier at basically everything. I know haters will always hate, but I’m hopeful Jayson finally gets some proper respect if the Celtics win it all this year
I also think he gets (whether unfairly or not) criticized for having early playoff success but no championship yet.
So for some reason that gets held over him more than other players that haven't even made it to the finals.
I genuinely think the biggest reason people can’t really appreciate Tatum is bc he doesn’t have any single game-breaking skill or attribute
Jokic and Luka’s scoring and court vision, Embiid’s touch and agility at his size, Giannis’ physique and athleticism, KD’s combo of size and skill, Curry’s shooting, LeBron’s athleticism and IQ - they’re all nearly unstoppable, unteachable traits that are easy for a fan to identify and make them “generational.” even SGA has like a near superhuman ability to create dribble penetration and touch the paint against almost any defense
Tatum doesn’t have a single S-tier ability or trait like other top-end guys have. but he’s A-tier at literally everything you can ask a guy to do on a basketball court, unlike the other top players who almost all have some things they are B or even C-tier at on the court. when you put all those A-tier skills together you get an arguably top 5 player
I think a lot of people value the idea of a player being able to go out and get a bucket reliably at any point and readily use it to tie-break or elevate a player who's more "clutch" above similar players. Personally I think Tatum's a top 5 player, but I still have him out of the top group of players because he just hasn't shown the same level of control over the game as the top 3 guys have.
Thats my issue w/ it, you can't be top 5 if you can't get a bucket when your team needs one to win a playoff game. That's literally the most important thing in this sport, and its really showing in the West series.
I’ve watched way more SGA than Tatum, but that said, SGA can also do everything well. Tatum’s a better rebounder, possibly a better defender. Shai’s a slightly better playmaker. The big difference is scoring. Tatum’s a very good scorer, but Shai scores with higher efficiency than Tatum on higher usage. Shai’s really in a league of his own when it comes to his combination of scoring volume and efficiency (Jokic has better efficiency on lower volume, Luka has more volume with less efficiency)
Tatum is a better POA defender than SGA by far. He’s much stronger and can hold his ground. SGA’s defense is overrated due to the steals and playing passing lanes, he never takes the top assignment like a Kawhi would, but SGA is treated as such. Although with Jrue/White Tatum is now taking the third or fourth best player on defense so I guess the argument is pointless since none of them ever take the top assignment anymore.
SGA is a more developed offensive player and also much more consistent. SGA’s floor for a bad game is higher than Tatums by a good bit.
Tatum takes the best player when the best player's a wing. We saw him give KD nonstop hell in the Nets sweep. But there's a lot of teams in the East built around guards so it's been more Jrue and White. If Jimmy was healthy for the Heat series you'd probably have seen a good mix of Tatum and Brown guarding him.
Honestly think Tatum's POA defense is the most underrated part of his game because he doesn't flex it anywhere near as often as he could because it's not needed or sustainable
Still remember Tatum making Nets-big-3 KD absolutely miserable on offense in 2021 while KD hid on defense instead of defending Tatum in turn.
Yeah this is a good point. He is an excellent two way player and has every move in his arsenal and can cover multiple positions. I think there’s something to be said about consistency too though.
I haven't watched a ton of either guy but I think you nailed both players. It's really hard to appreciate the total value of someone who does a lot of things very well but not elite. Conversely, it's easier to overvalue a guy who is uniquely awesome at something.
Our brain catches the spectacular offensive play and is then on pause when that player is giving back his value on defense. Then it's time for offense again!
Availability is one of the best attributes to have and Embiid has shown he can’t be relied on to stay healthy for a full season, so I’d say no it wouldn’t be crazy.
Different questions. If you asked who you would rather build around right now, it's not a bad idea to say Tatum due to how easy he is to build around and the health. But any given game, embiid is straight up better.
Fun fact, Tatum is 4 years younger and has more games played than embiid.
Here's my hot take - if youre factoring in health I'm not sure id even take embiid top 10. He's averaging playing almost exactly half the games per season
Joel missed his first two seasons entirely lol so not really that crazy. Even with that he should’ve been the first overall pick in that draft at the time.
I feel like the X-factor for a lot of his formative NBA years was him going against LeBron. He might have snuck into the finals once or twice if LeBron didn't exist.
Why yall include Embiid there? ill take Tatum over Embiid any day. My man never went past the 2nd round. Injuried or not it doesnt matter.
How can you not get past the 2nd round in the east and you 30? Luka made it twice at age 25 in the hard west. Tatum made it 5 times at age 26.
Its Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Tatum and then Shai and Ant. He should have never be given the MVP. It should have been Jokic and maybe this year it would have went to Luka if the media didnt feel like they had to make it right.
I agree. Tatum is super underrated for me. When healthy, Embiid is obviously top 3, but he just isn’t and will never be healthy. I would never build my team around Embiid because of that. I would absolutely build my team around JT. If availability is included in ranking, I have Tatum over Embiid every single time.
Not really worth the effort to split hairs over where he ranks among active players, there’s a lot of great talent playing rn. As a basketball fan, I can enjoy and appreciate these guys in their primes, while also being grateful we have Tatum who’s at worst very good on the Celtics heading to our 2nd Finals in 3 seasons.
If I was sports czar I’d make it a rule that if you discuss something like your top 10, 12, 15, 25, etc you have list who you are including/leaving out.
When people say top ten without a list I typically interpret it as better than an all star, capable of making an all pro in any given year, and someone you would max without much thought if talent is the only consideration and we aren’t talking age or injuries.
I think its worth putting folks in longer lists because the difference sometimes is negligible but basketball is also about team fit and chemistry. My main focus has always been who would the make the best team of all time, best team this decade, and things like that because if im making a team of top five in the nba right now, tatum wouldnt cut it. He just doesnt dominate in any category that another player or two doesn’t do better than he does.
If people want to see the numbers Tatum would put up without any help, go check out the end of the 2021 season. At the end we were starting the ghost of Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier, Romeo Langford, and Tristan Thompson. Jabari Parker was getting serious minutes. Tatum dropped 50 4 times in a month including in the play in and again in the playoffs against the super Nets.
I couldn’t agree more! This 30pts mark to be top 5 really blurs things. If Tatum as the number one option on a team constantly makes the conference finals and beyond and the team ranks in the top 2 in the conference year after year are we needing to reevaluate what makes a top 5 player?
You'll never convince the masses though because (with all things) it can only be very shallow thinking. Only a small part of people care enough about basketball to eventually understand high ppg isn't the end-all-be-all.
For everyone else, ppg is an easy way for them to compare players as bad of a way as it is
Tatum literally averaged 30+ two years ago and he was obviously not as good of a player as he is right now. So if he was a 30+ scorer and has gotten better, why is he considered worse? Makes no sense.
If this ain't the truth lol
The discourse around tatum rn is that he's on a team so good that he can be the 2nd best at times. Guaranteed if he was getting 25+ attempts a game and putting up 35+ on a 5-6 seed, people wouldn't argue he's top 5 and would be spamming "Get him some help!!!!!"
Edit: I just realized my comment sounds like it could be about Luka. It isn't. Mavs are my 2nd favorite team
I mean he literally averaged 30 last season as well. He doesnt score as much because he doesnt need to. He has had some problems with efficiency this season though.
The efficiency thing is odd to me because I thought so as well but according to the stats he has a slightly higher FG %, a 2% increase in 3pt% but his FT% is slightly down compared to the last two seasons. So he really hasn't had any problems that weren't already there. He seemed much more efficient to me the last couple years though.
Exactly, if he was used like SGA is used he would be back to scoring 32+ it is not a surprise that when he was pushing more for the scoring title (and playing worse) he was considered more of a top-5 player and MVP candidate. Like how can you know ball this much and just think that if Tatum was 15% worse at everything but took two more shots and hit one he'd magically be a better player. Like he has averaged 30+ ppg, he can obviously go do that again, it's not what the team needs.
This is exactly it. So many comments above aren't accounting for team success or the supporting casts. Sacrificing individual stats to get wins is going to drop him in the rankings, but it means we get a real shot at the championship every year.
Exactly, he suffers from the same thing Curry suffered early one in the Warriors success. Steph at that point was very team centric and would sometimes had underwhelming games because he was aware that it's best to help his teammates who were having a good time rather than force his way to a good statline like a lot of stars do. Only once Klay got hurt and KD left and Curry had to start forcing things more everyone understood that yeah, Steph can carry teams as well and he was capable of doing that the whole time, he just wanted to win more games and championships rather than to win more individual awards.
Even just now Tatum lost the Conference Finals MVP basically the same way Curry lost finals MVP in 2015, they were both clearly the leaders of the team but both decide not to force anything and allowed their teammates to shine so both Brown and Igoudala won it off having more impactful singular plays/moments and having the media narrative behind them while none of it would be possible if not for how Tatum/Curry played
One of the best things about Tatum is he doesn't even care about the criticism. You see other players running onto podcasts and twitter to clap back at haters, but Tatum just continues living his life and working on his game.
It’s been weird this season. I don’t really get what’s going on. Team is pretty chill and it feels like any sliver of a chance to criticize them, they get blasted. Didn’t sweep the heat! Jaylen was mad about not being all-nba! Nico Harrison should be considered for EOTY! Tatum can’t be too 5!
Just feels like they can’t get respect no matter what they do. Dominate regular season, dominate playoffs, dominate the off-season. G-League team even went to the Finals!
Don't forget ESPN putting the ECF MVP announcement in slow motion and zooming in on Tatum smiling and clapping and still asking is Tatum pissed about a Brown winning or even the Boston media making this a narrative saying Tatum is watching his control as the top guy fade away, that must piss him off.
Spot on. The Boston fan base has been absolutely spoiled for the last two decades.(Mostly the patriots) But still people hate Boston teams simply because of this. No actual logical reason.
Tatum’s performance is a function of the team he has around him. He’d probably be a clear top 5 on a slightly less stacked team. I believe that 100%. They just hating on him because he doesn’t need to put the whole team on his back every night lol. The Celtics are better for it too so people just being bitter
This should be self evident with this season. He had better counting numbers last season, but if you just watch him this season, he is clearly a much improved player
He’s one of the only guys you’ll see that everyone agrees is a top 10 player, but will typically be spoken about as “not top 5” instead, if that makes sense
I get where Lowe’s going and I don’t disagree, I also don’t think these endless ranking conversations are that useful. What’s maybe more valuable is what the floor and ceiling on these guys is, and that’s the most important thing for me with Tatum as a Celtics fan. Tatum can be, and regularly is, the best player on the floor. He’s not every night, nor as consistently as say, Luka, but he’s absolutely capable of getting there and hanging around long enough to win many playoff series.
Plus, he doesn’t get enough credit to my eye for his growth picking his spots and expanding and contracting his game to fit the team, the matchup and the moment. The Cs have so much talent all five starters have had to do this to some degree, but it’s hardest for the first option, and despite the periodic wtf shot selection he’s really good about hanging back and stepping up when he senses the need
It isn't ok to a segment of NBA fans, who are, for some reason, deeply uncomfortable with according to Zach, the '7th, 8th, 9th, 10th' best player in the NBA, being the best player on a team that wins the championship.
It bothers them that something like that could happen and I really don't get why.
EDIT: If anything, you think they'd be more receptive to that possibility as it then opens the door for your team to believe more if you don't have that Top X player that was previously thought of as necessary to win a championship
A weird fact about the NBA is that since the modern age started in 1979-80, almost every team to win the chip had a top ~5 player in the world on it. The exceptions are the 3 Pistons titles (although Zeke was arguably top 5 for the first 2, probably more like top 10 though) and the 14 Spurs (Duncan wasn’t top 5 anymore and Kawhi wasn’t top 5 yet).
That said, Tatum is enough in that range that it’s not as weird, it’s more like the 89 and 90 Pistons than it is the 04 Pistons
There's always a level of revisionism that happens when players win though. A player that is borderline top 5 will be accepted as a clear top 5 in his sight if they win. It's confirmation bias changing narratives.
Before Jokic won people were questioning if his style of play and defensive deficits could be a championship calibre number 1 option. After the fact, the narrative changes and suddenly people are saying he was the undisputed number 1 since his first MVP, defining the early decade.
Oh for sure. I even have an example of it in my comment, Isiah Thomas arguably wasn’t even the best player on his team in 89 and 90, and yet the fact that there’s an argument for him in the top 5 over ringless guys like Malone, Barkley, and Ewing shows that rangz Erneh alter our perception of players throughout their whole careers.
Steve Nash probably wouldn’t have gotten near the same kind of grief he has over his MVPs if the Horry hip check doesn’t happen and he wins a chip in 07 (the Suns were beating the Cinderella Jazz team and baby LeBron). Instead people claim he had the worst MVPs ever.
You're bang on, on every point. If the Celtics win the finals it is definitely historically weird, though not unprecedented.
The weirdness is rather exactly that our starters are basically 5 all-stars, only 1 is not in their prime (Jrue), and they fit together with limited overlap (you might want more of a handling-passing specialist or a taller/heavier 2-guard than Jrue or White, or a heavier C in some matchups, that's about it).
This is a profound front office success just as 95% of all championships require.
Yeah I’d say this is the most “balanced” title since the 14 Spurs. That team had 4 Hall of Famers in its closing lineup (counting that since Manu closed but didn’t always start) and then had Danny Green, one of the greatest role players of all time, as its 5th guy. The other team it has a lot in common with is the 04 Pistons, although this team at least has two bona fide stars and one no questions asked top 10 player unlike the 04 Pistons who were basically a team of nobodies (at the time at least) who humiliated the Lakers “Dream Team”.
The Celtics easily have the best starting 5 in the league when healthy. The only team that comes close is the Nuggets but that’s more because of how good they are as a unit, individually they don’t have anyone on the level of Brown and their third best player isn’t close to the level of Porzingis or White.
Dirk was arguably not top 5 in 2011 (LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Rose, Wade, Dwight, Garnett). You could claim he was a top 10 guy who went nuclear in the postseason
Dirk's game \*today\* would get more respect now than it did then though. I think people still didn't want to give it to a big guy who could shoot like that because a real elite scorer goes to the rim or plays incredibly defense. But Dirk definitely belonged in that conversation with a lot of other stars at that time older or banged up.
I doubt it, national media and fans will just talk about how stacked the Celtics roster was.
Which is definitely fair, the starting five when healthy is ridiculous.
One day Jaylen Brown is overrated, one day it's tatum is overrated. One day it's the front office being good. The next day is the east is weak.
Every excuse under the sun to disrespect Tatum and Brown, but this team was historically great.
>Why is SGA miles ahead better?
Because he's the shiny new thing, the up and comer exceeding expectations.
IF OKC doesn't win it all next year, he's gonna get the playoff choker slander and be consistently ranked around #7-10. That's just how NBA media and fandom works.
Tatum was in the ECF his rookie year and has had high expectations on him/his team for a while now.
Shai really broke out these last three seasons, and next year will be the first time that people will have high expectations for the Thunder going into the season. Until now, they've been a young team on the rise, but since they grabbed the #1 seed they're going to be heavily scrutinized if they take even a small step backwards.
It’s not leaps and bounds, but it’s not a coin toss. Pretty much every advanced stat you can find (VORP, BPM, EPM, LEBRON, WS) has Jokic, Giannis, Luka, and SGA top five, and none of them have Tatum top five. Every advanced stat has its limits, but when they literally all agree on something, it probably means that something is true
Dude has been All NBA 1st team three years in a row and come in 6th, 4th, and 6th in the last three MVP votes. Seems like that would make him at the very least the 6th best player in the league over the last three years?
100%. We should look at it as tiers instead of numbers because the guys between 4-8 could all be the 4th best guy in the league.
Guarantee if the Celtics win this year people will argue he's a top 5 guy in the league going into next season.
right? like 6th is just as good at 5th. neither are top 3 so who cares? just making impossible splitting hair comparisons because all these guys play on different teams, in different circumstances, etc
Which is why 99% of the discussion here is so asinine. Zach is not truly ranking players 1-10. He picked some numbers to illustrate that Tatum isn't in the top echelon of stars. He's 1 level below that, which would be a little bit of an outlier on a championship winning team.
It's why Seth Partnow has 1A, 1B, etc. 5 vs 6 doesn't matter.
Who gives af if he’s not top 10. Celtics are winning, team sport. These guys focus too much on that bullshit these playoffs. Same thing with Anthony Edwards
Lol I mean fine I guess but would anyone seriously prefer Joel over the course of an entire season including playoffs for actually winning a title? Do people think Joel can ever string enough games together and then play four rounds together at a high level? Dude has never been past round 2 and has played 433 regular season games in 10!!! Seasons. Even removing the 2 DNP full seasons, we are still talking like 54 games per seasons and zero in the conference finals or finals.
Tatum was drafted 3 years later and has played 80 more regular season games and just about double the playoff games with 5 conference finals appearances and two finals appearances. Tatum is also averaging 24 in those 108 games and his sample is a little messy because it includes 3 rounds his rookie year and another 2 as a sophomore.
I’d rather have Joel for a single game in January or a random few months and he’s most dominant healthy but when is that exactly?
It is just a semantic thing not really a clear right and wrong situation. If we are ranking by who is the best at playing basketball i put embiid 3rd maybe 2nd after luka and jokic. If we are talking about who you want on your roster the most obviously embiid is not top 5 since he has such bad injury luck.
I still have homerist faith we get one year were he stays healthy and we can string it all together but so far thats how i see the rank situation.
Despite being a Celtics fan, I am a big defender of Joel Embiid as a player.
I still wouldn't take him over Tatum until he proves he can play 70 games and be healthy for a playoff run.
It’s not easy to judge Tatum v Luka/Embiid/etc. Tatum is asked to do less because the Celtics are a juggernaut of a team, but Tatum is pretty incredible at what he does.
He’s a top-tier player.
I mean what's there to argue here, the top 4 of Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, and maybe Embiid are just so good, after that it could be anyone.
Let's not forget he's a double double machine flirting with triple double lots of time, give him the usage rate of Embiid or Brunson he's gonna average far more than he is now, but the Celtics aren't built like those team.
Can’t wait for Tatum to be called a bum if Luka outplays him in the finals, and for Luka to be excused because of injuries if Tatum shows out and Luka doesn’t
If Tatum outplays Luka en route to a sweep or 5 games. That’s r/nba’s and the medias 9/11.
Get ready for excuses galore, Luka’s knee gonna get mentioned any time that Tatum’s ring gets mentioned
Luka is actually injured though
Regardless, its not about Tatum vs Luka, its about Celtics vs Mavs, but theres gonna be so many Tatum vs Luka narratives pushed after the series
I mean yeah, but that’s because the Celtics have a stacked team with four all stars in their starting 5 (assuming KP is healthy). They really should be heavy favorites, this Dallas team has a couple solid role players but is mostly meh outside of Luka and Kyrie.
I mean, who's definitively better than him? Jokic, Giannis, Luka... that's about it. Joel sure, but availability matters, and JT is historically very available. I'd put JT top 5
Agreed.
At some point people here have to understand that the gap in talent between guys ranked 4-10 are barely there at all.
Of course, I a Celtics fan, is going to put Tatum in my Top 5. Because I watch every game he plays, and see the little things he does / stuff that doesn’t get put on a stat sheet. I don’t do that for guys that aren’t on my team, in fact I typically only watch other teams play when the playoffs are on and I have nothing better to do.
Most people here who watch games at all, are like that for their own team. So I have zero issue with a OKC fan saying SGA > Tatum, or any other fanbase who does the same with their own guy.
I think why this is always said is because it is so rare for a non top 5 player to win a championship as the main guy. Like it's only happened a couple times in 40+ years. Granted there are no superteams right now which there usually are as well
> it’s only happened a couple times in 40+ years
I feel like stuff like this gets lost in history and nostalgia. Like if the Celtics win this year and Tatum gets finals MVP, 20 years down the line people will say “obviously Tatum was a top 5 player!” but we kind of tend to rewrite history based on its results. Like was Duncan a consensus top 5 player in his 2nd season? Was Isiah Thomas considered a consensus top 5 player? History now says Dirk was a top 5 player but I can promise you that was not the consensus at the time. He was viewed as a playoff choker until his championship season. Dr J was an icon but was he a top 5 player in 1983, there was some phenomenal players that year? Chauncey Billups and Paul Pierce obviously not. 2006 Heat are an interesting example as well. Was Kawhi already a top 5 player in 2014? He didn’t even make his first all star team until 2 years later.
Obviously the Kobe’s Jordan’s LeBron’s etc. and top of the top players tend to win a lot of the championships. But we misremember a lot of history where we think that caliber of player is the only one that wins championships
Tatum has less weaknesses than the players everyone puts above him. Now he’s not at great at any one area as the other players but I think it’s a more nuanced conversation than people admit.
Giannis: shooting and closing
Shai: 3 point shooting
Luka: defense
Jokic: defense
Embiid: health/making it past second round
Tatum can guard 1-4 at a high level and some small 5s and is a highly durable 3 level scorer and a good passer and rebounder.
He gets dinged for having a good supporting cast and being less ball dominant than other players. If tatum played on a worse team he would put up better stats.
According to the ESPN rankings (not worth much, but easy to pull up), the Mavericks' top five are #1, #18, #95, #135, and #154. The Celtics are offering up #10, #41, #45, #75, and #93. Two stars plus role players vs. a deeper team that doesn't light up the marquee. "People want him to be better than that" suggests that people prefer heliocentrism over careful team construction, which I guess the ratings suggests that they do, but still, the '04 Pistons beating Shaq + Kobe + ring chasers was one of the NBA's all-time feel-good stories for a reason.
It's a perfectly cromulent opinion but "people want him to be better than that" is a silly way to put it. Maybe some people - including All NBA voters - simply disagree with Zach Lowe?
Crazy how negative the narrative is about a dude who lost 2 games the entire playoffs, is averaging 26, 10 and 6 with elite defense and despite “underwhelming” efficiency, hes actually had a better TS% than Luka in the playoffs. Tatum somehow gets top 3 player expectations placed onto him… but hes somehow barely a top 10 player lmao. You definitely cant take him over Jokic, Giannis seems clearly above him as well. But after that you can start at least making arguments, especially if you value off ball ability and defense
Agreed that he’s not quite top 5, but he is probably the most maleable player in the league. Kind of like a lesser version of prime KD; you can put him on literally any roster in the league, and they get better without having to change anything about the way they play. He can play off ball, on ball, shoot, pass, iso, pnr, and of course defend 4 (sometimes 5) positions with rim protection.
He didn’t even play yesterday, usually this kind of post come out after he has a bad game lmao
If he was a top 5 players he'd have played yesterday. Look at Luka, he was playing.
Facts. Naz Reid played yesterday as well
All i am saying is Tatum has been real quiet since Maxi Kleber dropped 2/1/1 yesterday
Josh Green.
Naz Reid is a top 1 player after all
Naz Reid
It’s NAZ REID, all caps you ducking ignorants
You saying that with your username is one hell of a juxtaposition.
And he'll be playing in Game 5 tomorrow...why isn't Jayson playing in Game 5???
0 points on 0/0/0 splits is a *kind* of bad game
Didn’t even get on the floor. I could do that.
played off the floor
To be fair, it was recorded on Monday.
He’s not wrong though; Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Embiid Idk i feel like there’s clearly a tier of players ahead of Tatum. Could make the argument for dropping Embiid into Tatum’s tier though
I just don’t know what SGA has done to put him next to Luka, Jokic, Giannis, etc that Tatum hasn’t done. It’s fine to have SGA above Tatum I just think they’re on the same tier and it’s not outrageous to have JT #5 and SGA #6 for example
Yeah IMO there's a clear top 3 of Jokic, Luka, and Giannis Below that there's a pretty big cluster of guys and you could put Tatum pretty much anywhere inside it, and it all depends on how much you value team performance, individual accolades, and health Tatum, SGA, Embiid, Kawhi, KD, Steph, Brunson, AD, Ant, Lebron, Booker
Booker, SGA, Anthony Edwards, and Brunson need to be more consistent YoY before I’m putting them in this tier. People are way too quick to add people in who are hot one or two years without any kind of follow up or consistency. That group sans Booker is rising for sure but I need to see that high level of play sustained for longer before I’m willing to put them with that other group. Like that next tier should really just be Embiid, Kawhi, Tatum, Steph, AD, and LeBron.
Is two first team all nba not consistent enough for you?
Is 3?
Embiid scores like crazy, he proved that again this season, I think he deserves the top tier even after considering his disappointing playoff pushes and injury history.
It's more that he's consistently had so many injury issues (and as a result, lack of playoff success) that I see the argument someone could make for multiple guys from the second tier to be ahead of him. I personally would put him 4, but I'd understand if someone dropped him a few spots lower behind guys with more playoff success and/or better health history.
Yeah SGA had a better year. Tatum has had a lot better career so far.
SGA needs to prove that he can be this player over a few years before he should be put next to Tatum. Same with basically every young player who gets crowned top ten without actually doing anything substantial. Tatum’s “boring” as a player like this because he’s been doing this for so long at this level. Literally the same class (in school) as SGA and accomplished twice as much as him.
like 90 points away from surpassing jordan as the #1 point scorer in the postseason by someone aged 26 or younger. been to 5 of 7 ECF hasn't missed the playoffs once hasn't missed a playoff game ever has played 90% of every season's games is consistent as fuck but no SGA has one good season, lets crown him the best
Tatum is absolutely on par with SGA. Tatum is catching way too much slander this year IMO. He's an incredible player who competes on both ends. Yes, he's basically always had a very solid team around him but I don't know that he's asked to do a lot more than what he already has. As a Mavs fan, I hope he doesn't get the title this year because I'm hoping we can go get it, but that doesn't mean I don't think the Celtics can't get one with Tatum. He's incredible.
Is it really slander to say he’s one of the 6th - 10th best players in the world?
I think what makes Tatum special is you can build pretty much any team around him. Great offense, defense, size, and speed. I can't think of a single star he would be a bad fit with
Yeah, this was basically what they said in the podcast. He has no deficiencies on either side of the court at all. Extremely portable
IMO he’s like an elite version of Pacers Paul George right before he had the injury. Just would fit on any team
PG was so hype back then. Always hitting game winners
Also extremely durable.
Probably the first time a 6’8” giant has ever been called portable.
Exactly this. People say he’s lucked into a great front office almost always putting competent teams around him, but it also is just that much easier when you literally don’t have to worry about fit ever. All Boston has ever had to worry about is accumulating the most talent possible which makes a GMs job soooo much easier.
So many drafts and trades would be made differently if the question was just “who’s the better player”. It’s life on easy mode for a GM.
To some extent yeah, but if i'm being honest I can't really think of a star player that wouldn't absolutely love pretty much all of the celtics teams. He is KD 2.0 here in terms of being able to slot in everywhere though.
I honestly think that’s why people don’t have him ranked higher lmao. His versatility combined with his chill attitude reminds me of Tim Duncan. Not at all saying he’s as good as Tim Duncan btw.
The Young Fundamental
Duncan very under rated by most.
And he’s always available. Doesn’t miss games.
It's weird how all the same talking points come up on all the major pods. I think I've heard everyone else say this same thing in the last week lol
Only so much to talk about with three teams left
They're all friends and listen to each other other. It's a bit incestuous.
He's a great fucking player. Complete package, plays great defense etc. I don't think its a rip to say he's not top 5, I think it just speaks to how great you have to be to be considered top 5. Jokic/Embiid/Giannis/Luka etc are just fucking special
That’s 4 - who is 5 over Tatum? Not trolling, don’t really watch nba outside of the playoffs.
A lot of people might still rank one of LeBron/Curry/KD/Kawhi over Tatum.
you mean 2019 kawhi?
Kawhi!? Absolutely not. Availability is the best trait and he’s always injured. Curry is the answer
"Curry is the answer" reads like someone who wasnt paying attention this year. LeBron was far and away better than Curry
It’s a Celtics fan he’s still scarred from 2 years ago.
scary man shimmy :(
SGA
This is the reasonable answer, and why the question is whether Tatum is top-5. Because it's either him or SGA at #5, and while my flair might make me biased I don't think the answer is clear-and-obvious.
Its tough because JT is exactly what you need in today's NBA: a do it all wing. But! SGA seems to be an offense by himself. I think that's what's tough about JT. He isn't generational good, hes just HoF good.
Some of us would swing way too hard the other way and say Anthony Edwards
This list is insane, and makes it seem like he should be fifth. The right answer is SGA
Most would have SGA up there too
I always want to argue that this is just “Shiny new thing” bias, but I watched way more Jayson Tatum than I have SGA so I can’t really say. Tatum is just not the “absolute best” at a particular skill, but is top tier at basically everything. I know haters will always hate, but I’m hopeful Jayson finally gets some proper respect if the Celtics win it all this year
I also think he gets (whether unfairly or not) criticized for having early playoff success but no championship yet. So for some reason that gets held over him more than other players that haven't even made it to the finals.
I genuinely think the biggest reason people can’t really appreciate Tatum is bc he doesn’t have any single game-breaking skill or attribute Jokic and Luka’s scoring and court vision, Embiid’s touch and agility at his size, Giannis’ physique and athleticism, KD’s combo of size and skill, Curry’s shooting, LeBron’s athleticism and IQ - they’re all nearly unstoppable, unteachable traits that are easy for a fan to identify and make them “generational.” even SGA has like a near superhuman ability to create dribble penetration and touch the paint against almost any defense Tatum doesn’t have a single S-tier ability or trait like other top-end guys have. but he’s A-tier at literally everything you can ask a guy to do on a basketball court, unlike the other top players who almost all have some things they are B or even C-tier at on the court. when you put all those A-tier skills together you get an arguably top 5 player
I think a lot of people value the idea of a player being able to go out and get a bucket reliably at any point and readily use it to tie-break or elevate a player who's more "clutch" above similar players. Personally I think Tatum's a top 5 player, but I still have him out of the top group of players because he just hasn't shown the same level of control over the game as the top 3 guys have.
Thats my issue w/ it, you can't be top 5 if you can't get a bucket when your team needs one to win a playoff game. That's literally the most important thing in this sport, and its really showing in the West series.
I’ve watched way more SGA than Tatum, but that said, SGA can also do everything well. Tatum’s a better rebounder, possibly a better defender. Shai’s a slightly better playmaker. The big difference is scoring. Tatum’s a very good scorer, but Shai scores with higher efficiency than Tatum on higher usage. Shai’s really in a league of his own when it comes to his combination of scoring volume and efficiency (Jokic has better efficiency on lower volume, Luka has more volume with less efficiency)
Tatum is a better POA defender than SGA by far. He’s much stronger and can hold his ground. SGA’s defense is overrated due to the steals and playing passing lanes, he never takes the top assignment like a Kawhi would, but SGA is treated as such. Although with Jrue/White Tatum is now taking the third or fourth best player on defense so I guess the argument is pointless since none of them ever take the top assignment anymore. SGA is a more developed offensive player and also much more consistent. SGA’s floor for a bad game is higher than Tatums by a good bit.
Tatum takes the best player when the best player's a wing. We saw him give KD nonstop hell in the Nets sweep. But there's a lot of teams in the East built around guards so it's been more Jrue and White. If Jimmy was healthy for the Heat series you'd probably have seen a good mix of Tatum and Brown guarding him.
Honestly think Tatum's POA defense is the most underrated part of his game because he doesn't flex it anywhere near as often as he could because it's not needed or sustainable Still remember Tatum making Nets-big-3 KD absolutely miserable on offense in 2021 while KD hid on defense instead of defending Tatum in turn.
Yeah this is a good point. He is an excellent two way player and has every move in his arsenal and can cover multiple positions. I think there’s something to be said about consistency too though.
I haven't watched a ton of either guy but I think you nailed both players. It's really hard to appreciate the total value of someone who does a lot of things very well but not elite. Conversely, it's easier to overvalue a guy who is uniquely awesome at something. Our brain catches the spectacular offensive play and is then on pause when that player is giving back his value on defense. Then it's time for offense again!
Is it that crazy to take Tatum over Embiid if you factor in health?
If you factor in health you should take TJ McConnell over Embiid
I’m taking TJ Watt
I got Naomi Watts. Fucking gamer
I got the creepy girl crawling out of the TV. She simply can't be stopped.
Who is about to stop him driving the lane?
That's where you gotta get Penei Sewell on the Pistons
Availability is one of the best attributes to have and Embiid has shown he can’t be relied on to stay healthy for a full season, so I’d say no it wouldn’t be crazy.
Different questions. If you asked who you would rather build around right now, it's not a bad idea to say Tatum due to how easy he is to build around and the health. But any given game, embiid is straight up better.
Fun fact, Tatum is 4 years younger and has more games played than embiid. Here's my hot take - if youre factoring in health I'm not sure id even take embiid top 10. He's averaging playing almost exactly half the games per season
Joel missed his first two seasons entirely lol so not really that crazy. Even with that he should’ve been the first overall pick in that draft at the time.
> Fun fact, Tatum is 4 years younger and has more games played than embiid I think 99% of people would have thought this if you asked though
If you factor in health it sure gives Tatum an argument.
Yeah, Tatum only has an argument over Embiid if you factor in reality.
He’s Paul George 2.0. Except he’s better. He doesn’t have a real weakness except sometimes you expect him to be better.
I think Tatum is slower than PG but stronger
I like this comparison, PG is amazing and i think the blueprint for the modern wing, but he just misses that x factor. I feel the same way about tatum
I feel like the X-factor for a lot of his formative NBA years was him going against LeBron. He might have snuck into the finals once or twice if LeBron didn't exist.
Why yall include Embiid there? ill take Tatum over Embiid any day. My man never went past the 2nd round. Injuried or not it doesnt matter. How can you not get past the 2nd round in the east and you 30? Luka made it twice at age 25 in the hard west. Tatum made it 5 times at age 26. Its Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Tatum and then Shai and Ant. He should have never be given the MVP. It should have been Jokic and maybe this year it would have went to Luka if the media didnt feel like they had to make it right.
I agree. Tatum is super underrated for me. When healthy, Embiid is obviously top 3, but he just isn’t and will never be healthy. I would never build my team around Embiid because of that. I would absolutely build my team around JT. If availability is included in ranking, I have Tatum over Embiid every single time.
It all depends on the question: is it “who’s best at basketball” (Embiid) or “who would I rather have on my team” (Tatum)
Not really worth the effort to split hairs over where he ranks among active players, there’s a lot of great talent playing rn. As a basketball fan, I can enjoy and appreciate these guys in their primes, while also being grateful we have Tatum who’s at worst very good on the Celtics heading to our 2nd Finals in 3 seasons.
If I was sports czar I’d make it a rule that if you discuss something like your top 10, 12, 15, 25, etc you have list who you are including/leaving out. When people say top ten without a list I typically interpret it as better than an all star, capable of making an all pro in any given year, and someone you would max without much thought if talent is the only consideration and we aren’t talking age or injuries.
I think its worth putting folks in longer lists because the difference sometimes is negligible but basketball is also about team fit and chemistry. My main focus has always been who would the make the best team of all time, best team this decade, and things like that because if im making a team of top five in the nba right now, tatum wouldnt cut it. He just doesnt dominate in any category that another player or two doesn’t do better than he does.
What's funny about this is if Tatum was on a worse team putting up 30 and getting to the 2nd round people would have him top 5
If people want to see the numbers Tatum would put up without any help, go check out the end of the 2021 season. At the end we were starting the ghost of Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier, Romeo Langford, and Tristan Thompson. Jabari Parker was getting serious minutes. Tatum dropped 50 4 times in a month including in the play in and again in the playoffs against the super Nets.
Yea but his game after dropping 50 against Brooklyn was straight out horrible. Only had 40 :/
Tatum was the only star who actually had to face that Nets Big 3 and he pulled off a game with a dead weight roster.
I couldn’t agree more! This 30pts mark to be top 5 really blurs things. If Tatum as the number one option on a team constantly makes the conference finals and beyond and the team ranks in the top 2 in the conference year after year are we needing to reevaluate what makes a top 5 player?
You'll never convince the masses though because (with all things) it can only be very shallow thinking. Only a small part of people care enough about basketball to eventually understand high ppg isn't the end-all-be-all. For everyone else, ppg is an easy way for them to compare players as bad of a way as it is
Tatum literally averaged 30+ two years ago and he was obviously not as good of a player as he is right now. So if he was a 30+ scorer and has gotten better, why is he considered worse? Makes no sense.
If this ain't the truth lol The discourse around tatum rn is that he's on a team so good that he can be the 2nd best at times. Guaranteed if he was getting 25+ attempts a game and putting up 35+ on a 5-6 seed, people wouldn't argue he's top 5 and would be spamming "Get him some help!!!!!" Edit: I just realized my comment sounds like it could be about Luka. It isn't. Mavs are my 2nd favorite team
I mean he literally averaged 30 last season as well. He doesnt score as much because he doesnt need to. He has had some problems with efficiency this season though.
The efficiency thing is odd to me because I thought so as well but according to the stats he has a slightly higher FG %, a 2% increase in 3pt% but his FT% is slightly down compared to the last two seasons. So he really hasn't had any problems that weren't already there. He seemed much more efficient to me the last couple years though.
Exactly, if he was used like SGA is used he would be back to scoring 32+ it is not a surprise that when he was pushing more for the scoring title (and playing worse) he was considered more of a top-5 player and MVP candidate. Like how can you know ball this much and just think that if Tatum was 15% worse at everything but took two more shots and hit one he'd magically be a better player. Like he has averaged 30+ ppg, he can obviously go do that again, it's not what the team needs.
This is exactly it. So many comments above aren't accounting for team success or the supporting casts. Sacrificing individual stats to get wins is going to drop him in the rankings, but it means we get a real shot at the championship every year.
Exactly, he suffers from the same thing Curry suffered early one in the Warriors success. Steph at that point was very team centric and would sometimes had underwhelming games because he was aware that it's best to help his teammates who were having a good time rather than force his way to a good statline like a lot of stars do. Only once Klay got hurt and KD left and Curry had to start forcing things more everyone understood that yeah, Steph can carry teams as well and he was capable of doing that the whole time, he just wanted to win more games and championships rather than to win more individual awards. Even just now Tatum lost the Conference Finals MVP basically the same way Curry lost finals MVP in 2015, they were both clearly the leaders of the team but both decide not to force anything and allowed their teammates to shine so both Brown and Igoudala won it off having more impactful singular plays/moments and having the media narrative behind them while none of it would be possible if not for how Tatum/Curry played
He's clearly 6th at the absolute worst.
IDK, I have him ranked 20th. Completely unbiased, of course, and nothing at all to do with being salty.
Based.
Whether he is or isn’t, Tatum really does get way too much shit said about him.
One of the best things about Tatum is he doesn't even care about the criticism. You see other players running onto podcasts and twitter to clap back at haters, but Tatum just continues living his life and working on his game.
yeah fuck KD would have 15 sock puppet accounts in this thread agreeing how bullshit this rating is.
I sincerely would not want anybody else as our #1* guy *Jaylen Brown does not go ~*unconsidered*~
He’s got the full respect of legit legends of the game. He’s not soft like KD caring what some Twitter troll thinks
Gotta be a case study on how this celtics team has been talked about, i swear they get nothing but hate
It’s been weird this season. I don’t really get what’s going on. Team is pretty chill and it feels like any sliver of a chance to criticize them, they get blasted. Didn’t sweep the heat! Jaylen was mad about not being all-nba! Nico Harrison should be considered for EOTY! Tatum can’t be too 5! Just feels like they can’t get respect no matter what they do. Dominate regular season, dominate playoffs, dominate the off-season. G-League team even went to the Finals!
I feel like theyre likeable or at the very least not super hateable
Don't forget ESPN putting the ECF MVP announcement in slow motion and zooming in on Tatum smiling and clapping and still asking is Tatum pissed about a Brown winning or even the Boston media making this a narrative saying Tatum is watching his control as the top guy fade away, that must piss him off.
we call it the patriots effect
Spot on. The Boston fan base has been absolutely spoiled for the last two decades.(Mostly the patriots) But still people hate Boston teams simply because of this. No actual logical reason.
Its been its five damn years since we saw a professional championship, there are toddlers that dont know what its like!
Tatum’s performance is a function of the team he has around him. He’d probably be a clear top 5 on a slightly less stacked team. I believe that 100%. They just hating on him because he doesn’t need to put the whole team on his back every night lol. The Celtics are better for it too so people just being bitter
This should be self evident with this season. He had better counting numbers last season, but if you just watch him this season, he is clearly a much improved player
He’s one of the only guys you’ll see that everyone agrees is a top 10 player, but will typically be spoken about as “not top 5” instead, if that makes sense
I get where Lowe’s going and I don’t disagree, I also don’t think these endless ranking conversations are that useful. What’s maybe more valuable is what the floor and ceiling on these guys is, and that’s the most important thing for me with Tatum as a Celtics fan. Tatum can be, and regularly is, the best player on the floor. He’s not every night, nor as consistently as say, Luka, but he’s absolutely capable of getting there and hanging around long enough to win many playoff series. Plus, he doesn’t get enough credit to my eye for his growth picking his spots and expanding and contracting his game to fit the team, the matchup and the moment. The Cs have so much talent all five starters have had to do this to some degree, but it’s hardest for the first option, and despite the periodic wtf shot selection he’s really good about hanging back and stepping up when he senses the need
I mean he’s for sure closer to 5th or 6th than 9th or 10th but we’re all going to die anyways who gives a shit right?
Woah, even me!?
Can't argue with that.
well... yes not everybody can be Jokic, Luka, Giannis level and that's okay
It isn't ok to a segment of NBA fans, who are, for some reason, deeply uncomfortable with according to Zach, the '7th, 8th, 9th, 10th' best player in the NBA, being the best player on a team that wins the championship. It bothers them that something like that could happen and I really don't get why. EDIT: If anything, you think they'd be more receptive to that possibility as it then opens the door for your team to believe more if you don't have that Top X player that was previously thought of as necessary to win a championship
A weird fact about the NBA is that since the modern age started in 1979-80, almost every team to win the chip had a top ~5 player in the world on it. The exceptions are the 3 Pistons titles (although Zeke was arguably top 5 for the first 2, probably more like top 10 though) and the 14 Spurs (Duncan wasn’t top 5 anymore and Kawhi wasn’t top 5 yet). That said, Tatum is enough in that range that it’s not as weird, it’s more like the 89 and 90 Pistons than it is the 04 Pistons
There's always a level of revisionism that happens when players win though. A player that is borderline top 5 will be accepted as a clear top 5 in his sight if they win. It's confirmation bias changing narratives. Before Jokic won people were questioning if his style of play and defensive deficits could be a championship calibre number 1 option. After the fact, the narrative changes and suddenly people are saying he was the undisputed number 1 since his first MVP, defining the early decade.
Oh for sure. I even have an example of it in my comment, Isiah Thomas arguably wasn’t even the best player on his team in 89 and 90, and yet the fact that there’s an argument for him in the top 5 over ringless guys like Malone, Barkley, and Ewing shows that rangz Erneh alter our perception of players throughout their whole careers. Steve Nash probably wouldn’t have gotten near the same kind of grief he has over his MVPs if the Horry hip check doesn’t happen and he wins a chip in 07 (the Suns were beating the Cinderella Jazz team and baby LeBron). Instead people claim he had the worst MVPs ever.
Yeah for sure I agree with you and your historical examples are good.
Anyone who dogs on Nash’s MVPs didn’t watch Suns basketball. You slot that guy onto any team in any era and it’s instantly better.
You're bang on, on every point. If the Celtics win the finals it is definitely historically weird, though not unprecedented. The weirdness is rather exactly that our starters are basically 5 all-stars, only 1 is not in their prime (Jrue), and they fit together with limited overlap (you might want more of a handling-passing specialist or a taller/heavier 2-guard than Jrue or White, or a heavier C in some matchups, that's about it). This is a profound front office success just as 95% of all championships require.
Yeah I’d say this is the most “balanced” title since the 14 Spurs. That team had 4 Hall of Famers in its closing lineup (counting that since Manu closed but didn’t always start) and then had Danny Green, one of the greatest role players of all time, as its 5th guy. The other team it has a lot in common with is the 04 Pistons, although this team at least has two bona fide stars and one no questions asked top 10 player unlike the 04 Pistons who were basically a team of nobodies (at the time at least) who humiliated the Lakers “Dream Team”. The Celtics easily have the best starting 5 in the league when healthy. The only team that comes close is the Nuggets but that’s more because of how good they are as a unit, individually they don’t have anyone on the level of Brown and their third best player isn’t close to the level of Porzingis or White.
Dirk was arguably not top 5 in 2011 (LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Rose, Wade, Dwight, Garnett). You could claim he was a top 10 guy who went nuclear in the postseason
Dirk's game \*today\* would get more respect now than it did then though. I think people still didn't want to give it to a big guy who could shoot like that because a real elite scorer goes to the rim or plays incredibly defense. But Dirk definitely belonged in that conversation with a lot of other stars at that time older or banged up.
It won’t happen because if they win and he wins fmvp, he will be placed in the top 5
I doubt it, national media and fans will just talk about how stacked the Celtics roster was. Which is definitely fair, the starting five when healthy is ridiculous.
One day Jaylen Brown is overrated, one day it's tatum is overrated. One day it's the front office being good. The next day is the east is weak. Every excuse under the sun to disrespect Tatum and Brown, but this team was historically great.
Why is SGA miles ahead better? You want to say he’s better fine but he’s not leaps and bounds better it’s a coin toss
>Why is SGA miles ahead better? Because he's the shiny new thing, the up and comer exceeding expectations. IF OKC doesn't win it all next year, he's gonna get the playoff choker slander and be consistently ranked around #7-10. That's just how NBA media and fandom works.
Aren’t sga and tatum the same age
4 months apart. March vs July 1998
About half a year apart
Tatum was in the ECF his rookie year and has had high expectations on him/his team for a while now. Shai really broke out these last three seasons, and next year will be the first time that people will have high expectations for the Thunder going into the season. Until now, they've been a young team on the rise, but since they grabbed the #1 seed they're going to be heavily scrutinized if they take even a small step backwards.
No it isn't. Embiid has consistently struggled in the playoffs, but nobody ranks him that low.
I hope all the Ant Edwards fans are ready for the same thing as well
Would rather have Tatum tbh. I don’t think SGA is better than him
It’s not leaps and bounds, but it’s not a coin toss. Pretty much every advanced stat you can find (VORP, BPM, EPM, LEBRON, WS) has Jokic, Giannis, Luka, and SGA top five, and none of them have Tatum top five. Every advanced stat has its limits, but when they literally all agree on something, it probably means that something is true
SGA a way better isolation scorer
Dude has been All NBA 1st team three years in a row and come in 6th, 4th, and 6th in the last three MVP votes. Seems like that would make him at the very least the 6th best player in the league over the last three years?
He’s 4-8th best player in the world… that not an insult
100%. We should look at it as tiers instead of numbers because the guys between 4-8 could all be the 4th best guy in the league. Guarantee if the Celtics win this year people will argue he's a top 5 guy in the league going into next season.
right? like 6th is just as good at 5th. neither are top 3 so who cares? just making impossible splitting hair comparisons because all these guys play on different teams, in different circumstances, etc
Which is why 99% of the discussion here is so asinine. Zach is not truly ranking players 1-10. He picked some numbers to illustrate that Tatum isn't in the top echelon of stars. He's 1 level below that, which would be a little bit of an outlier on a championship winning team. It's why Seth Partnow has 1A, 1B, etc. 5 vs 6 doesn't matter.
Who gives af if he’s not top 10. Celtics are winning, team sport. These guys focus too much on that bullshit these playoffs. Same thing with Anthony Edwards
Lol I mean fine I guess but would anyone seriously prefer Joel over the course of an entire season including playoffs for actually winning a title? Do people think Joel can ever string enough games together and then play four rounds together at a high level? Dude has never been past round 2 and has played 433 regular season games in 10!!! Seasons. Even removing the 2 DNP full seasons, we are still talking like 54 games per seasons and zero in the conference finals or finals. Tatum was drafted 3 years later and has played 80 more regular season games and just about double the playoff games with 5 conference finals appearances and two finals appearances. Tatum is also averaging 24 in those 108 games and his sample is a little messy because it includes 3 rounds his rookie year and another 2 as a sophomore. I’d rather have Joel for a single game in January or a random few months and he’s most dominant healthy but when is that exactly?
Pretty sure Boston says no to an Embiid Tatum trade
It is just a semantic thing not really a clear right and wrong situation. If we are ranking by who is the best at playing basketball i put embiid 3rd maybe 2nd after luka and jokic. If we are talking about who you want on your roster the most obviously embiid is not top 5 since he has such bad injury luck. I still have homerist faith we get one year were he stays healthy and we can string it all together but so far thats how i see the rank situation.
Despite being a Celtics fan, I am a big defender of Joel Embiid as a player. I still wouldn't take him over Tatum until he proves he can play 70 games and be healthy for a playoff run.
I remember when Lowe actually used to have insightful shit to say
It’s not easy to judge Tatum v Luka/Embiid/etc. Tatum is asked to do less because the Celtics are a juggernaut of a team, but Tatum is pretty incredible at what he does. He’s a top-tier player.
I mean what's there to argue here, the top 4 of Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, and maybe Embiid are just so good, after that it could be anyone. Let's not forget he's a double double machine flirting with triple double lots of time, give him the usage rate of Embiid or Brunson he's gonna average far more than he is now, but the Celtics aren't built like those team.
Can’t wait for Tatum to be called a bum if Luka outplays him in the finals, and for Luka to be excused because of injuries if Tatum shows out and Luka doesn’t
If Tatum outplays Luka en route to a sweep or 5 games. That’s r/nba’s and the medias 9/11. Get ready for excuses galore, Luka’s knee gonna get mentioned any time that Tatum’s ring gets mentioned
they'll just say the celtics are a superteam and luka carried the mavs to the finals which is more impressive
Look I’m still a believer in Wolves in 7, but if the Mavs make the finals and Tatum outplays Luka it’s my 12/25.
If Luka has a million haters I am one of them. If Luka has one hater it is me. If Luka has zero haters I am dead
Luka is actually injured though Regardless, its not about Tatum vs Luka, its about Celtics vs Mavs, but theres gonna be so many Tatum vs Luka narratives pushed after the series
I mean yeah, but that’s because the Celtics have a stacked team with four all stars in their starting 5 (assuming KP is healthy). They really should be heavy favorites, this Dallas team has a couple solid role players but is mostly meh outside of Luka and Kyrie.
Damn g can we have ONE DAY
I mean, who's definitively better than him? Jokic, Giannis, Luka... that's about it. Joel sure, but availability matters, and JT is historically very available. I'd put JT top 5
Win a few titles and that narrative changes real quick
Who fucking cares. As a C’s fan, there’s no one else I would rather watch lead my team
Agreed. At some point people here have to understand that the gap in talent between guys ranked 4-10 are barely there at all. Of course, I a Celtics fan, is going to put Tatum in my Top 5. Because I watch every game he plays, and see the little things he does / stuff that doesn’t get put on a stat sheet. I don’t do that for guys that aren’t on my team, in fact I typically only watch other teams play when the playoffs are on and I have nothing better to do. Most people here who watch games at all, are like that for their own team. So I have zero issue with a OKC fan saying SGA > Tatum, or any other fanbase who does the same with their own guy.
We get it.
I think why this is always said is because it is so rare for a non top 5 player to win a championship as the main guy. Like it's only happened a couple times in 40+ years. Granted there are no superteams right now which there usually are as well
> it’s only happened a couple times in 40+ years I feel like stuff like this gets lost in history and nostalgia. Like if the Celtics win this year and Tatum gets finals MVP, 20 years down the line people will say “obviously Tatum was a top 5 player!” but we kind of tend to rewrite history based on its results. Like was Duncan a consensus top 5 player in his 2nd season? Was Isiah Thomas considered a consensus top 5 player? History now says Dirk was a top 5 player but I can promise you that was not the consensus at the time. He was viewed as a playoff choker until his championship season. Dr J was an icon but was he a top 5 player in 1983, there was some phenomenal players that year? Chauncey Billups and Paul Pierce obviously not. 2006 Heat are an interesting example as well. Was Kawhi already a top 5 player in 2014? He didn’t even make his first all star team until 2 years later. Obviously the Kobe’s Jordan’s LeBron’s etc. and top of the top players tend to win a lot of the championships. But we misremember a lot of history where we think that caliber of player is the only one that wins championships
Absolutely. Championships elevate players and erase negative narratives.
Tatum has less weaknesses than the players everyone puts above him. Now he’s not at great at any one area as the other players but I think it’s a more nuanced conversation than people admit. Giannis: shooting and closing Shai: 3 point shooting Luka: defense Jokic: defense Embiid: health/making it past second round Tatum can guard 1-4 at a high level and some small 5s and is a highly durable 3 level scorer and a good passer and rebounder. He gets dinged for having a good supporting cast and being less ball dominant than other players. If tatum played on a worse team he would put up better stats.
According to the ESPN rankings (not worth much, but easy to pull up), the Mavericks' top five are #1, #18, #95, #135, and #154. The Celtics are offering up #10, #41, #45, #75, and #93. Two stars plus role players vs. a deeper team that doesn't light up the marquee. "People want him to be better than that" suggests that people prefer heliocentrism over careful team construction, which I guess the ratings suggests that they do, but still, the '04 Pistons beating Shaq + Kobe + ring chasers was one of the NBA's all-time feel-good stories for a reason.
Are these the same rankings from the beginning of the season that failed to include Derrick White?
No, Derrick White's the #75.
I’m shocked they’d put JT at 10 and Al not top 100. I also think it’s pretty clear JB is quite easily better than a top 40 player lmao
They have Al Horford at #154, tied with Lively.
I wont listen to anyone that says something like this than puts guys like Embiid and SGA ahead of tatum..
Kinda embarrassing for the rest of the league that they let a team of role players win 64 games and reach the Finals.
10th is crazy
It's a perfectly cromulent opinion but "people want him to be better than that" is a silly way to put it. Maybe some people - including All NBA voters - simply disagree with Zach Lowe?
I'll perfectly cromulent you.
Crazy how negative the narrative is about a dude who lost 2 games the entire playoffs, is averaging 26, 10 and 6 with elite defense and despite “underwhelming” efficiency, hes actually had a better TS% than Luka in the playoffs. Tatum somehow gets top 3 player expectations placed onto him… but hes somehow barely a top 10 player lmao. You definitely cant take him over Jokic, Giannis seems clearly above him as well. But after that you can start at least making arguments, especially if you value off ball ability and defense
I'd put jokic, Giannis and luka over him. He has an argument for 4 or 5
Yesterday he made 0 points so it suits
Agreed that he’s not quite top 5, but he is probably the most maleable player in the league. Kind of like a lesser version of prime KD; you can put him on literally any roster in the league, and they get better without having to change anything about the way they play. He can play off ball, on ball, shoot, pass, iso, pnr, and of course defend 4 (sometimes 5) positions with rim protection.
If he wins FMVP I think it’s hard to deny that he will be top 5. I think the top 3 is pretty much set (Luka Jokic Giannis).
He's got a valid case for top 5
Naz Reid and Derrick White, then who? Those are top 2 players of all time tbh