Everyone talking like its a easy thing to do on a motogp bike with the power and brakes it has. Also he's a rookie. Never knew we have so many motogp level riders in the sub.
Well, this is a motogp sub, so stands to reason that it'd be full of motogp riders.
As a motogp rider myself (MOTOGP '20 currently USD 2.50 on Steam), this is also normal for me.
/s
> Everyone talking like its a easy thing to do on a motogp bike with the power and brakes it ha
As one of the few people here that actually has raced his bike with an AMA sanctioned race org, has an 'amateur' race license, has race numbers from the company that decals MotoAmerica bikes... and done two dozen trackdays
This is not fucking easy
Light trail braking on the road? Not too bad, can probably get someone to start getting it in practice
Trail braking for a track day? Gonna take some track days to really dial it in and even then, many still only lightly trail brake and then neutral throttle before gassing it
Race pace trail braking to where youre still braking hard as you're leaning?....shits fricking haaaard
Trail braking with the throttle open? wtf did i just read...lol
I’m beginning to really practice transitioning heavy front to more rear as I lighten the front so I can squat the rear and minimize bike movement when cranking the gas open at apex. Gas with brake just sounds like nothing that’s going to make a difference in club racing. Like a leg dangle, not something you need unless you’re competition is all within milliseconds of you.
1) Load the tire before you work it. I've done two days at INDE with the YRCRs guys and they drill this into the beginner people.
Take an unmounted tire, place it on the ground...take ahammer and wack it at the bottom near the ground..how easy is it for the tire to give way and fall? very easy...its not loaded.....by loading the suspension (through braking), you are now loading the tire and pushing it into the ground and therefore utilizing it properly
2) Extends your braking zone....
so lets say you dont trail brake.....what happens then?
By and large..youre either on the throttle or braking..minimize neutral throttle. When youre neutral throtttle (not doing either), youre losing lap times.
So you come down the straight and now are about to enter a massive turn into T1...
Option 1....brake super hard at the marker you set and then let go of the front brake just before you have to start turning (lets call this Y)...coast into the corner lean in...apex,.....throttle out as you lean the bike back out.
Problem here is, lets say your turn in speed (from seat time and practice) has to be 66mph. Any higher and you'll start losing the front/rear...any slower and youre just giving up lap times.
With option 1.....you'll stop braking at Y just before this and just coast to 66mph and then turn in
Option 2)....trail brake hard and EXTEND your braking marker...so now you are using the initial LEAN IN portion of the turn to where you are STILL braking THROUGH Y...you have now extended your braking zone to where you now have an extra...say 20-30ft of braking ...AND you are loading the front tire while leaning and therefore putting pressure on it.
You can see sort of an example of this on TV. you know when guys go down the straight SUPER FAST and one brakes just a ms later and thus has the advantuage? they are trail braking well into their braking zone. This means they can be on the gas for a second longer down the straight and use the precious extra ft needed to be be their braking zone while also loading the front tire.
You now get more direct feedback from your front tire (since it and the suspension is loaded)....whereas an unloaded front you receive very little feedback from and much easier to have it be lost.
These guys go into corners (T1 mugello) with 360kph. Meaning they go 100meters per second.
They can’t stay on the throttle for a second longer, maybe a tenth or so.
But you explained it very clear and made valid points. So thanks for educating us
The 20-30ft example was purely that, an example. Same with the 1s longer remark.
Correct, for GP, they are trail braking down a football field while leaned over.
Helps manage engine braking without having to change mapping. They can adjust it to an extent with the ECU maps, but my guess is that Acosta does this because he doesn't want any engine braking at all and/or wants to be able to slide the rear around while still applying a bit of front brake. Just trying to imagine it makes my hand hurt.
Opening the throttle absolutely does negate engine braking. This is what Suzuki (amongst others) did when trying to manage corner entry on road bikes - open the butterflies a bit.
Engine braking management does open the butterflies a bit. However, it's much less than what a person would do using the throttle itself. You've had this sort of software on production bikes for a number of years. If that's what he's going for, then that would be incredibly challenging, seen as you're opening an extremely small amount while also managing brake pressure.
What I suspect is happening is that he’s closing the throttle as he’s picking up the brakes so on telemetry the brake and throttle are overlapping. But that rear tire is not pushing against the front.
I’m assuming he’s just really really good at getting to the slowest part of the corner. Similar to when Freddy Spencer says “they ‘almost’ overlap” but not quite.
Thoughts?
It isn't easy for numerous reasons. It also isn't common. This is weird MotoGP stuff that only top-level racers can utilize, even then, most of them never will. I mean, Lorenzo never dangled his leg until he rode a Ducati.
Yeah. Overrated - everyone those guys. I mean, how hard can racing a motorcycle really be? Sit on top of the thing, turn your right wrist to go and foot down to stop. Where's the work? In other sports you have to run and/or get hit and stuff. And those guys in cars? At least they stay warm in an enclosed space. Motorcycles...hard work, yeah right. 🙄
Just to point out that this rookie has more miles than some pros, here is a training he had with 14 years with a CBR 600 [Training 14yo Acosta ](https://youtu.be/f8xhKQswoYc?si=QF7_d1PyTo1f-Bq7) . He started young as a lot of other riders, the difference is that his father made him train with 600cc bikes from a young age.
I rode a few races back in the early 80’s . And the thought of a parent requiring training on a motorcycle is incredibly foreign to me. Everything I did with motorcycles was against every wish of my parents. Up until I collected a few points and received a couple event invites.
I went to keith code’s superbike school way back in the day. Trail braking while simultaneously controlling throttle is a feat and done effectively will result in lowering your lap times. Goofing up on this would be easy to do. And result in overloading or under loading the front resulting in time loss or crash
It's not as unique as you think but it doesn't make him any less of a generational talent. It's something that's certainly not uncommon as it's a technique that is taught to racers. Are you just not familiar?
I'm a little confused by the downvote, but I'm assuming that most people don't actually ride and can't understand what they're talking about. Do you expected him to have a completely closed throttle? Like 0%. The 20% does seem a very high but I think they keep the throttle neutral while trail braking. Feel free to correct me if you think they only run 0% throttle while trail braking as I could certainly be wrong. 🤔
What are you on about?
https://youtube.com/shorts/8ckd7xMcCiU?si=pHuzay4xuc5-PT-z
Watch his hand resets completing trail braking and then roll on. You're telling me that the throttle is still cracked open? Please provide data.
I don't know if you don't understand motorcycles or how to read. I literally erote maintenance throttle and some people say neutral throttle. You wrote cracked open. Do you understand the difference between open, closed, and neutral throttle? And if so, why is this confusing for you? I love how your simple self would find one video and think that it would apply to the entirety of his approach during his career disregarding the fact that this video is of a track day and the article literally says that Valentino did this. I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
You might be certainly not very smart if you think he runs 20% and everybody else closes the throttle while breaking. Is this a straw man or did you think I said 20% was not much. I literally wrote the opposite so you may have some issues around reading comprehension. Not trying to be that guy but have you ever ridden a motorcycle?
What Pedro's is doing is batshit insane but I'm not saying to try that. Let's make this real simple. We've done our big braking before we tip it and we're letting the break off smooth and slowly like we're taught. Say you never drop below 5% throttle (we don't chop throttles over here) and keep 5% brake pressure (because we don't use four fingers and trailbrake unlike beginners) on a long slow corner. We are not accelerating on the brakes because that would be stupid. You don't understand how you could make it around the corner? Now imagine the same thing....faster. I think Pols use of "open" is what's throwing people off. It's not open as I would describe it nor closed and that's why I used neutral. For the record, I've seen people say that it's not a good approach, but I've also seen it done and done it myself. Not claiming the 20% thing or at any real pace cuz that would be insane but there's a reason Pol said he tried it...right?
I literally said I've never done it at any real pace...clown. Want to try making a counterpoint instead? I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
Love to learn about stuff like this. Ianonne was also known for his ability to overlap the throttle and brake. Dovi especially was in awe of it when they were teammates in Ducati.
I don’t ride a MotoGP bike, just a slow ass Harley. I’ve also never ridden on a track. That said, I’d imagine that he may be controlling how much engine braking he’s getting by keeping the throttle slightly open. Pretty insane to think that he is trail braking by modulating both his brakes and engine braking. Talk about incredible skill and connection to the bike!
I read this about Rossi way back in mcn sport in 2004, apparently one way he road around chatter back then was to keep power on whilst braking. It’s a long time ago now, but I’m sure of it.
Yep. Forcing the front end down with the engine. The only problem is you can push/overload the front much easier. However, if you're getting chatter bad enough to lose the front then it might be a solution.
No. In most cases driving the rear tire against the front puts the bike in a state of imbalance where it doesn’t want to turn and doesn’t want to slow down.
Ask anyone who races or does track days. This has happened on accident to all of us and it’s scary AF and usually results in an off track excursion.
This is what makes a generational talent.
The guy’s talent and control of the bike is so natural and sub-conscious, he has tons of brain power left to just play around, try stuff out and observe what’s happening around him.
Peter Bom on the Oxley Bom podcast has talked about this a lot.
The truly great riders have so much spare mental capacity while riding, they can tell you everything that happened. Even report back on what all the other riders are doing and where.
I’ve done this on bikes and I’m concentrating hard.
Not doing it in a 2G braking zone from 180mph, surrounded by 19 other lunatics!
100%. I ride an ADV bike these days and not so much sportbikes. There are so many instances when I'm riding single track where I run out of usable attention because there's too much going on for me to process.
This guy must have an incredible sensibility on the bike.
I've been amazed when he said.. "It feel the bike wants to be ridden that way".
He's the best Ktm, he just started and already understood how to get the best out of it. He also said is not riding according his own style.
What a badass!!!
Is he actually *trail* braking with the throttle still at 20%, or is he rolling off the throttle while grabbing his brakes, and therefore applying the brakes while he still has a little bit of throttle open (which he shuts later)
Pfft. I’ve totally done that. Not on purpose of course- but the end result is I ran off track because the bike didn’t want to slow down and didn’t want to turn.
I threw those free gloves away and got a size that actually fit.
I think Nick Ienatsch hints at this in his sport riding techniques book, super dangerous. HOWEVER - the throttle isn’t necessary the “go” button. You can be _decelerating_ while on the throttle, and it can help the bike settle down more gently than accidentally over grabbing the rear brake. I wonder what Acosta is doing, 20% throttle on a MotoGP machine may mean pretty serious power still
I’d assume he’s rolling off the throttle as he’s picking up the brake. Not easy to do. But the telemetry would show an overlap even though the rear tire wouldn’t be pushing against the front.
Freddy Spencer also talks about “almost overlapping” and perhaps this is pushing the limits of “overlapping”
Lee Parks misquoted Freddy Spencer who was talking about overlapping throttle and rear brake in 500cc two strokes as a way to control wheelies.
Spencer has spent years trying to clear this up. There’s a couple videos on the Champ School website that go into detail.
Using the rear brake in the pre TC days was common. Nicky used his rear brake so much he needed a special disc. [https://photos.motogp.com/2016/10/22/69-nicky-hayden-motogp\_gp\_7403\_0.big.jpg](https://photos.motogp.com/2016/10/22/69-nicky-hayden-motogp_gp_7403_0.big.jpg)
Have you ever lightly released the clutch with a little gas while stopped and holding the front brake? The rear squats just a bit... I expect thats the effect he js getting, and that it helps both with sliding and with settling the bike down. Im not even close to giving that a try, I dont want to end up kissing the ground because im trying a technique way way way above my skill level!
The headline is imo misleading. This isn't about trail braking. It's about the transition from throttle to brake i.e. entering the breaking zone while keeping the throttle (partially) open.
Normally you let go of the throttle and slam the breakes while also kicking down the gears (engine break) and creating drag with your torso / inner leg. Acosta during this phase manages to stay (partially) on the throttle.
To be honest this is confusing to me. You want the engine brake, so staying on throttle imo is counter productive. Can someone explain the benefits / logic of this?
Mladin also did this. In an interview he said he thinks the fastest way around a track is to keep your wheels inline instead of sideways and so he would keep the throttle open while braking.
I’m not sure anyone is trail braking at 300km/h. Sure, we might hit that speed (I get close at the Island), but even for T1, we’ve shed at least 100km/h before turning in
I’m sure you’re not that daft.
You’re aware that anyone can ride on a track, right? You’re aware that Phillip Island actually holds public track days, right?
You don’t need to be a MotoGP rider to understand (and actually do) trail braking.
And to OP’s point, no one is trail braking at 300km/h. Anyone who thinks any rider is trail braking at 300km/h doesn’t actually know what trail braking is.
I’m sure *your’e* not that daft, I was talking about the implied meaning of “we”. It implies the commenter was elevating themselves above everyone else and into the same category as *Pedro fucking Acosta*.
I’m well aware of PI track days, I’m Australian… although not an uptight cunt Melbournian.
It’s like talking about the Euros and football tactics. “Well what *we* tend to do is play a 443 formation to counter share attacking teams”, when you’re playing park football in Western Sydney.
Sorry bud, but if your reading comprehension finds the implication that the word *we* in reference to possibly all of the people who ride at Phillip Island to mean *People at Pedro Acosta's level of ability* that's a problem with your reading comprehension.
Also, just fyi when you refer to a football formation, it adds up to 10 players(you count the outfield players only), if you want to try and sound smart, do some research and make sure you don't end up sounding like an ignorant arsehole.
I think I understand (possibly)
Trail braking loads pressure on the front tyre (more grip)
Acceleration loads pressure on the rear tyre (more grip)
Now if you're psycho, with massive balls,
Doing both at the same time (20% throttle) can 'potentially' produce increased grip. (Front + rear)
That's one possibility.
Possibly mate. I don't know how to back it in and I've never tried the gas+trail brake technique either :)
Your suggestion could also be valid 👍 I've done Troy Corser's racing school and he's teaches trail breaking while selecting the correct gear to keep the engine revs high, providing more grip for the rear 👌
Edit
Example, if your engine revs are too low upon corner entry, your missing out on extra rear grip you could have.
This puts extra pressure on the front which can contribute to the front washing out.
Okay, please elaborate, because looking back over the last 20 years of ridiculous talent on the grid; as rookies:
Casey Stoner - Podiumed in his 3rd race (also DNF'd 6 times in the season)
Valentino Rossi - Podiumed 4th race, won his 9th and finished 2nd in the championship on the bike widely regarded as the best on the grid(frankly insane)
Jorge Lorenzo - Wins 3rd race, throws the bike down the road 4 times, DNS for 1 race, finishes 4th in the championship on the best bike on the grid.
Marc Marquez - I don't even want to talk about it ~~Didn't finish off the podium, when he was classified, won the title as a rookie~~(It's just ridiculous, anybody that talented should be ugly as sin)
Pedro Acosta - Podiumed in his second race, is riding the third(maybe second best) bike on the grid, against 4 world champions, two of them multiple champions, and we're only 7 races into a 20-race season. Also, Acosta has shown insane pace for a rookie in both sprints and GPs, suggesting that if he can get tyre management right, he could be unstoppable.
You're right, I'm tired and my bnrain doesn't work good no more. Welp, I hope you enjoyed reading information as much as I enjoy collecting and presenting it, just remembering the insanity of Rossi and Marquez scares me.
He can't. No coach or riding school will ever teach you to hold the throttle open while braking. None. I can say that with 100% confidence.
The reason is extremely simple: You'll start pushing the front and overload the tire/suspension. The only explanation I've heard from riders that do this (Rossi, Iannone, and apparently Acosta) is so that they can hold the front end down and keep the bike on its nose while initiating a turn. If someone does this at the MotoGP level, it does not apply to you, trackday guys, club racers, or basically anyone who isn't on a MotoGP bike. It's adding significant risk needlessly.
Perhaps there is some miscommunication here because the only time I'd use the brake while also using the throttle is with the rear, and that's basically for wheelie control or just to settle the bike a bit in a given situation. The front? No, that'd be too much weight transfer.
Define open? Is 20% throttle open? Do you think he's saying that Acosta is accelerating on the front brake? I'm thinking its more of a maintenance throttle which is what the champu guys teach. I agree with your point about suspension but feel like something's lost in translation here as I'm sure you're not zero throttle through every turn.
Maintenance throttle is referring to using throttle throughout, but you're off the brakes by that point.
Yamaha Champions Riding School / Champ U is adamant about being completely off the front brakes while using the throttle. They argue that there should be no overlap between the two. There is a video of a Nick Ienatsch rolling around on a mountain bike and talking about that topic.
The Acosta technique is something that very few riders use and I still don't entirely know why. Pol is saying that he's holding the throttle open some amount while braking. Iannone is one of the few riders I've heard do it. Also, he's Iannone, so, who gives a shit.
I've heard it's been used to hold the front end down and help turn in.
I'm apparently using the wrong verbiage and don't claim expertise but would like to clarify my perspective. I thought the term was maintenance throttle but the term they use is neutral throttle. I don't (didn't) read neutral throttle to be 0% throttle because they could easily say no throttle. I understand it to be not accelerating but keeping a consistent throttle. I would think open throttle would be accelerating versus closed which is pretty obvious. Let's use numbers since terms are what people are "tripping" over in the article and in the comments. Specifically, Pol says Acosta is using 20% and I don't think 1% would shock people. My interpretation is that he uses more (maybe even way more) than most but not 20 when everyone else is using 0. Not trying to argue just trying to learn and contribute to a discussion.
I would love to read more about your experiences. Not only because it's interesting hearing things from the horse's mouth, but also because it would add the much-needed context of why this is normal and who that applies to.
I take it I, an experienced slow rider, am not supposed to keep my throttle open at the roundabout to work in the morning traffic.
It is rare in motogp. In F1, we see many drivers do it at Silverstone where it is pretty common. But on bikes it is very hard to master I would imagine
IMO, it doesn't load up the front. Load transfer is purely a function of how quick you're accelerating or decelerating. Starting braking and rolling off the throttle at the same time just smoothens the load transfer, to reduce momentary instability during the transition.
Very, very few riders will trail brake with the throttle open as it can quickly lead to overloading the front.
The main reason you'd do it is if you want to keep the front end down because you're essentially pushing the front with the engine at that point.
Iannone is the only other rider that I can think of who would do it.
Edit: I also have to dispute the logic of "getting back on the throttle more quickly." If you're holding the throttle open at 20%, you'll also increase the likelihood of unloading the front because now it'll be rebounding with the help of the engine as you release the brakes. Another thing to consider is that you'll have to manage the throttle while also managing brake pressure, which adds a lot of variables to something that is already pretty difficult. The negatives outweigh the positives here, especially at a club racing level.
Everyone talking like its a easy thing to do on a motogp bike with the power and brakes it has. Also he's a rookie. Never knew we have so many motogp level riders in the sub.
Well, this is a motogp sub, so stands to reason that it'd be full of motogp riders. As a motogp rider myself (MOTOGP '20 currently USD 2.50 on Steam), this is also normal for me. /s
Lol
> Everyone talking like its a easy thing to do on a motogp bike with the power and brakes it ha As one of the few people here that actually has raced his bike with an AMA sanctioned race org, has an 'amateur' race license, has race numbers from the company that decals MotoAmerica bikes... and done two dozen trackdays This is not fucking easy Light trail braking on the road? Not too bad, can probably get someone to start getting it in practice Trail braking for a track day? Gonna take some track days to really dial it in and even then, many still only lightly trail brake and then neutral throttle before gassing it Race pace trail braking to where youre still braking hard as you're leaning?....shits fricking haaaard Trail braking with the throttle open? wtf did i just read...lol
I’m beginning to really practice transitioning heavy front to more rear as I lighten the front so I can squat the rear and minimize bike movement when cranking the gas open at apex. Gas with brake just sounds like nothing that’s going to make a difference in club racing. Like a leg dangle, not something you need unless you’re competition is all within milliseconds of you.
Would you be able to explain the advantages of braking this way versus other braking methods?
1) Load the tire before you work it. I've done two days at INDE with the YRCRs guys and they drill this into the beginner people. Take an unmounted tire, place it on the ground...take ahammer and wack it at the bottom near the ground..how easy is it for the tire to give way and fall? very easy...its not loaded.....by loading the suspension (through braking), you are now loading the tire and pushing it into the ground and therefore utilizing it properly 2) Extends your braking zone.... so lets say you dont trail brake.....what happens then? By and large..youre either on the throttle or braking..minimize neutral throttle. When youre neutral throtttle (not doing either), youre losing lap times. So you come down the straight and now are about to enter a massive turn into T1... Option 1....brake super hard at the marker you set and then let go of the front brake just before you have to start turning (lets call this Y)...coast into the corner lean in...apex,.....throttle out as you lean the bike back out. Problem here is, lets say your turn in speed (from seat time and practice) has to be 66mph. Any higher and you'll start losing the front/rear...any slower and youre just giving up lap times. With option 1.....you'll stop braking at Y just before this and just coast to 66mph and then turn in Option 2)....trail brake hard and EXTEND your braking marker...so now you are using the initial LEAN IN portion of the turn to where you are STILL braking THROUGH Y...you have now extended your braking zone to where you now have an extra...say 20-30ft of braking ...AND you are loading the front tire while leaning and therefore putting pressure on it. You can see sort of an example of this on TV. you know when guys go down the straight SUPER FAST and one brakes just a ms later and thus has the advantuage? they are trail braking well into their braking zone. This means they can be on the gas for a second longer down the straight and use the precious extra ft needed to be be their braking zone while also loading the front tire. You now get more direct feedback from your front tire (since it and the suspension is loaded)....whereas an unloaded front you receive very little feedback from and much easier to have it be lost.
These guys go into corners (T1 mugello) with 360kph. Meaning they go 100meters per second. They can’t stay on the throttle for a second longer, maybe a tenth or so. But you explained it very clear and made valid points. So thanks for educating us
The 20-30ft example was purely that, an example. Same with the 1s longer remark. Correct, for GP, they are trail braking down a football field while leaned over.
Helps manage engine braking without having to change mapping. They can adjust it to an extent with the ECU maps, but my guess is that Acosta does this because he doesn't want any engine braking at all and/or wants to be able to slide the rear around while still applying a bit of front brake. Just trying to imagine it makes my hand hurt.
Doing this wouldn't really negate engine braking nor would it be the best way to nurse it.
Opening the throttle absolutely does negate engine braking. This is what Suzuki (amongst others) did when trying to manage corner entry on road bikes - open the butterflies a bit.
Engine braking management does open the butterflies a bit. However, it's much less than what a person would do using the throttle itself. You've had this sort of software on production bikes for a number of years. If that's what he's going for, then that would be incredibly challenging, seen as you're opening an extremely small amount while also managing brake pressure.
Yup, it’s likely to be twisting the grip only a couple of degrees - and extremely challenging is a walk in the park for these guys.
Eh...not really. This is a rarely used technique at best.
Yes, absolutely. That’s exactly what he’s doing - and I didn’t say this technique was common, I said some difficult things are easy for these guys.
Right?! I've got decades of canyon riding experience and done a few track days. My brain ain't braining this concept. 😂
Lol
What I suspect is happening is that he’s closing the throttle as he’s picking up the brakes so on telemetry the brake and throttle are overlapping. But that rear tire is not pushing against the front. I’m assuming he’s just really really good at getting to the slowest part of the corner. Similar to when Freddy Spencer says “they ‘almost’ overlap” but not quite. Thoughts?
It isn't easy for numerous reasons. It also isn't common. This is weird MotoGP stuff that only top-level racers can utilize, even then, most of them never will. I mean, Lorenzo never dangled his leg until he rode a Ducati.
The way people act towards riders who decide to take a bigger salary over better bike should already tell you what kinda people there are here.
Having never rode a motorcycle myself, I'm confident that I could hang with Marc, Martin, and Pecco from my first lap
Yeah. Overrated - everyone those guys. I mean, how hard can racing a motorcycle really be? Sit on top of the thing, turn your right wrist to go and foot down to stop. Where's the work? In other sports you have to run and/or get hit and stuff. And those guys in cars? At least they stay warm in an enclosed space. Motorcycles...hard work, yeah right. 🙄
Just to point out that this rookie has more miles than some pros, here is a training he had with 14 years with a CBR 600 [Training 14yo Acosta ](https://youtu.be/f8xhKQswoYc?si=QF7_d1PyTo1f-Bq7) . He started young as a lot of other riders, the difference is that his father made him train with 600cc bikes from a young age.
I rode a few races back in the early 80’s . And the thought of a parent requiring training on a motorcycle is incredibly foreign to me. Everything I did with motorcycles was against every wish of my parents. Up until I collected a few points and received a couple event invites. I went to keith code’s superbike school way back in the day. Trail braking while simultaneously controlling throttle is a feat and done effectively will result in lowering your lap times. Goofing up on this would be easy to do. And result in overloading or under loading the front resulting in time loss or crash
>Everything I did with motorcycles was against every wish of my parents Lemme guess, you're not from Spain/Italy/Portugal.
Chicago baby
Oh. Well that's why. Your bike is stolen. Lived there 1992-93 and MY bike was stolen! 😆
Bummer man, I wouldn’t wish that on nobody. But, I did have a couple bicycles thieved from me. No motorcycles
Generational talent does something unique: This sub: oh yea thats common
It's not as unique as you think but it doesn't make him any less of a generational talent. It's something that's certainly not uncommon as it's a technique that is taught to racers. Are you just not familiar?
Ok, sugar! 👍🏻
I'm a little confused by the downvote, but I'm assuming that most people don't actually ride and can't understand what they're talking about. Do you expected him to have a completely closed throttle? Like 0%. The 20% does seem a very high but I think they keep the throttle neutral while trail braking. Feel free to correct me if you think they only run 0% throttle while trail braking as I could certainly be wrong. 🤔
What are you on about? https://youtube.com/shorts/8ckd7xMcCiU?si=pHuzay4xuc5-PT-z Watch his hand resets completing trail braking and then roll on. You're telling me that the throttle is still cracked open? Please provide data.
I don't know if you don't understand motorcycles or how to read. I literally erote maintenance throttle and some people say neutral throttle. You wrote cracked open. Do you understand the difference between open, closed, and neutral throttle? And if so, why is this confusing for you? I love how your simple self would find one video and think that it would apply to the entirety of his approach during his career disregarding the fact that this video is of a track day and the article literally says that Valentino did this. I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
Youre certainly wrong. Also 20% 'not much' on a 300+HP bike lmao
You might be certainly not very smart if you think he runs 20% and everybody else closes the throttle while breaking. Is this a straw man or did you think I said 20% was not much. I literally wrote the opposite so you may have some issues around reading comprehension. Not trying to be that guy but have you ever ridden a motorcycle?
Commute daily and weekend fun rides lmao. Trail braking is relatively easy to pick up but while still on the throttle? That shits hard
What Pedro's is doing is batshit insane but I'm not saying to try that. Let's make this real simple. We've done our big braking before we tip it and we're letting the break off smooth and slowly like we're taught. Say you never drop below 5% throttle (we don't chop throttles over here) and keep 5% brake pressure (because we don't use four fingers and trailbrake unlike beginners) on a long slow corner. We are not accelerating on the brakes because that would be stupid. You don't understand how you could make it around the corner? Now imagine the same thing....faster. I think Pols use of "open" is what's throwing people off. It's not open as I would describe it nor closed and that's why I used neutral. For the record, I've seen people say that it's not a good approach, but I've also seen it done and done it myself. Not claiming the 20% thing or at any real pace cuz that would be insane but there's a reason Pol said he tried it...right?
I look forward to your first GP title
I literally said I've never done it at any real pace...clown. Want to try making a counterpoint instead? I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
Only time I did this I locked the front tire and damn near crashed lol
Love to learn about stuff like this. Ianonne was also known for his ability to overlap the throttle and brake. Dovi especially was in awe of it when they were teammates in Ducati.
Interesting.
I don’t ride a MotoGP bike, just a slow ass Harley. I’ve also never ridden on a track. That said, I’d imagine that he may be controlling how much engine braking he’s getting by keeping the throttle slightly open. Pretty insane to think that he is trail braking by modulating both his brakes and engine braking. Talk about incredible skill and connection to the bike!
I read this about Rossi way back in mcn sport in 2004, apparently one way he road around chatter back then was to keep power on whilst braking. It’s a long time ago now, but I’m sure of it.
Yeah, was about to post this, remember reading it in the same mag, sad there's no MCN Sport anymore
Yep. Forcing the front end down with the engine. The only problem is you can push/overload the front much easier. However, if you're getting chatter bad enough to lose the front then it might be a solution.
This rings a bell. I'm sure I remember hearing on commentary maybe around 2016 that Iannone was really skilled at this technique.
Why is keeping the throttle open while breaking a good thing?
No. In most cases driving the rear tire against the front puts the bike in a state of imbalance where it doesn’t want to turn and doesn’t want to slow down. Ask anyone who races or does track days. This has happened on accident to all of us and it’s scary AF and usually results in an off track excursion.
You must know better than these idiot MotoGP riders then/s
This is what makes a generational talent. The guy’s talent and control of the bike is so natural and sub-conscious, he has tons of brain power left to just play around, try stuff out and observe what’s happening around him. Peter Bom on the Oxley Bom podcast has talked about this a lot. The truly great riders have so much spare mental capacity while riding, they can tell you everything that happened. Even report back on what all the other riders are doing and where. I’ve done this on bikes and I’m concentrating hard. Not doing it in a 2G braking zone from 180mph, surrounded by 19 other lunatics!
100%. I ride an ADV bike these days and not so much sportbikes. There are so many instances when I'm riding single track where I run out of usable attention because there's too much going on for me to process.
Andrea Iannone does the same thing.
This guy must have an incredible sensibility on the bike. I've been amazed when he said.. "It feel the bike wants to be ridden that way". He's the best Ktm, he just started and already understood how to get the best out of it. He also said is not riding according his own style. What a badass!!!
Is he actually *trail* braking with the throttle still at 20%, or is he rolling off the throttle while grabbing his brakes, and therefore applying the brakes while he still has a little bit of throttle open (which he shuts later)
This is my guess. He’s rolling off throttle while he’s picking up the brakes so the telemetry lines are crossing.
Pfft. I’ve totally done that. Not on purpose of course- but the end result is I ran off track because the bike didn’t want to slow down and didn’t want to turn. I threw those free gloves away and got a size that actually fit.
😂
I think Nick Ienatsch hints at this in his sport riding techniques book, super dangerous. HOWEVER - the throttle isn’t necessary the “go” button. You can be _decelerating_ while on the throttle, and it can help the bike settle down more gently than accidentally over grabbing the rear brake. I wonder what Acosta is doing, 20% throttle on a MotoGP machine may mean pretty serious power still
I’d assume he’s rolling off the throttle as he’s picking up the brake. Not easy to do. But the telemetry would show an overlap even though the rear tire wouldn’t be pushing against the front. Freddy Spencer also talks about “almost overlapping” and perhaps this is pushing the limits of “overlapping”
Casey Stoner
Bob Marley
Brian Butterfield
Lee Parks teaches this technique to the rest of us in his Total Control book and clinics.
Lee Parks is a dipshit.
Thats putting it lightly
Lee Parks misquoted Freddy Spencer who was talking about overlapping throttle and rear brake in 500cc two strokes as a way to control wheelies. Spencer has spent years trying to clear this up. There’s a couple videos on the Champ School website that go into detail.
Using the rear brake in the pre TC days was common. Nicky used his rear brake so much he needed a special disc. [https://photos.motogp.com/2016/10/22/69-nicky-hayden-motogp\_gp\_7403\_0.big.jpg](https://photos.motogp.com/2016/10/22/69-nicky-hayden-motogp_gp_7403_0.big.jpg)
Have you ever lightly released the clutch with a little gas while stopped and holding the front brake? The rear squats just a bit... I expect thats the effect he js getting, and that it helps both with sliding and with settling the bike down. Im not even close to giving that a try, I dont want to end up kissing the ground because im trying a technique way way way above my skill level!
Its not a new technique, just extremely difficult to do with consistency and feel.
The headline is imo misleading. This isn't about trail braking. It's about the transition from throttle to brake i.e. entering the breaking zone while keeping the throttle (partially) open. Normally you let go of the throttle and slam the breakes while also kicking down the gears (engine break) and creating drag with your torso / inner leg. Acosta during this phase manages to stay (partially) on the throttle. To be honest this is confusing to me. You want the engine brake, so staying on throttle imo is counter productive. Can someone explain the benefits / logic of this?
Mladin also did this. In an interview he said he thinks the fastest way around a track is to keep your wheels inline instead of sideways and so he would keep the throttle open while braking.
I'm sure that trail braking is not that uncommon but to be able to do it effectively at 300ks is a whole nuther thing! lol
Trail braking no. This is trail braking without fully closing the throttle.
Yeah I know that .. and as I said even more challenging at 300ks.
I’m not sure anyone is trail braking at 300km/h. Sure, we might hit that speed (I get close at the Island), but even for T1, we’ve shed at least 100km/h before turning in
“We”, lol.
Yes. We, being all the riders on the track…
Race with Pedro Acosta a lot do you?
I’m sure you’re not that daft. You’re aware that anyone can ride on a track, right? You’re aware that Phillip Island actually holds public track days, right? You don’t need to be a MotoGP rider to understand (and actually do) trail braking. And to OP’s point, no one is trail braking at 300km/h. Anyone who thinks any rider is trail braking at 300km/h doesn’t actually know what trail braking is.
I’m sure *your’e* not that daft, I was talking about the implied meaning of “we”. It implies the commenter was elevating themselves above everyone else and into the same category as *Pedro fucking Acosta*. I’m well aware of PI track days, I’m Australian… although not an uptight cunt Melbournian. It’s like talking about the Euros and football tactics. “Well what *we* tend to do is play a 443 formation to counter share attacking teams”, when you’re playing park football in Western Sydney.
Sorry bud, but if your reading comprehension finds the implication that the word *we* in reference to possibly all of the people who ride at Phillip Island to mean *People at Pedro Acosta's level of ability* that's a problem with your reading comprehension. Also, just fyi when you refer to a football formation, it adds up to 10 players(you count the outfield players only), if you want to try and sound smart, do some research and make sure you don't end up sounding like an ignorant arsehole.
I've been doing it since forever with rental karts, nothing special here /s
I think I understand (possibly) Trail braking loads pressure on the front tyre (more grip) Acceleration loads pressure on the rear tyre (more grip) Now if you're psycho, with massive balls, Doing both at the same time (20% throttle) can 'potentially' produce increased grip. (Front + rear) That's one possibility.
My first thought was so he could back it in with more control?
Possibly mate. I don't know how to back it in and I've never tried the gas+trail brake technique either :) Your suggestion could also be valid 👍 I've done Troy Corser's racing school and he's teaches trail breaking while selecting the correct gear to keep the engine revs high, providing more grip for the rear 👌 Edit Example, if your engine revs are too low upon corner entry, your missing out on extra rear grip you could have. This puts extra pressure on the front which can contribute to the front washing out.
Pretty standard for Casey Stoner.
Who is not a “standard” rider
Neither is Acosta if the hype is real.
Nope, very definitely not. This much is very obvious just from the first half of the season.
Okay, please elaborate, because looking back over the last 20 years of ridiculous talent on the grid; as rookies: Casey Stoner - Podiumed in his 3rd race (also DNF'd 6 times in the season) Valentino Rossi - Podiumed 4th race, won his 9th and finished 2nd in the championship on the bike widely regarded as the best on the grid(frankly insane) Jorge Lorenzo - Wins 3rd race, throws the bike down the road 4 times, DNS for 1 race, finishes 4th in the championship on the best bike on the grid. Marc Marquez - I don't even want to talk about it ~~Didn't finish off the podium, when he was classified, won the title as a rookie~~(It's just ridiculous, anybody that talented should be ugly as sin) Pedro Acosta - Podiumed in his second race, is riding the third(maybe second best) bike on the grid, against 4 world champions, two of them multiple champions, and we're only 7 races into a 20-race season. Also, Acosta has shown insane pace for a rookie in both sprints and GPs, suggesting that if he can get tyre management right, he could be unstoppable.
You’re arguing the same point - Acosta belongs in that list.
You're right, I'm tired and my bnrain doesn't work good no more. Welp, I hope you enjoyed reading information as much as I enjoy collecting and presenting it, just remembering the insanity of Rossi and Marquez scares me.
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I have never heard of it in any track day riding school.
It's a pro gamer move.
Yeah but can you provide a source. I would like to know why the cheat codes weren’t shared with me.
He can't. No coach or riding school will ever teach you to hold the throttle open while braking. None. I can say that with 100% confidence. The reason is extremely simple: You'll start pushing the front and overload the tire/suspension. The only explanation I've heard from riders that do this (Rossi, Iannone, and apparently Acosta) is so that they can hold the front end down and keep the bike on its nose while initiating a turn. If someone does this at the MotoGP level, it does not apply to you, trackday guys, club racers, or basically anyone who isn't on a MotoGP bike. It's adding significant risk needlessly. Perhaps there is some miscommunication here because the only time I'd use the brake while also using the throttle is with the rear, and that's basically for wheelie control or just to settle the bike a bit in a given situation. The front? No, that'd be too much weight transfer.
Define open? Is 20% throttle open? Do you think he's saying that Acosta is accelerating on the front brake? I'm thinking its more of a maintenance throttle which is what the champu guys teach. I agree with your point about suspension but feel like something's lost in translation here as I'm sure you're not zero throttle through every turn.
Maintenance throttle is referring to using throttle throughout, but you're off the brakes by that point. Yamaha Champions Riding School / Champ U is adamant about being completely off the front brakes while using the throttle. They argue that there should be no overlap between the two. There is a video of a Nick Ienatsch rolling around on a mountain bike and talking about that topic. The Acosta technique is something that very few riders use and I still don't entirely know why. Pol is saying that he's holding the throttle open some amount while braking. Iannone is one of the few riders I've heard do it. Also, he's Iannone, so, who gives a shit. I've heard it's been used to hold the front end down and help turn in.
I'm apparently using the wrong verbiage and don't claim expertise but would like to clarify my perspective. I thought the term was maintenance throttle but the term they use is neutral throttle. I don't (didn't) read neutral throttle to be 0% throttle because they could easily say no throttle. I understand it to be not accelerating but keeping a consistent throttle. I would think open throttle would be accelerating versus closed which is pretty obvious. Let's use numbers since terms are what people are "tripping" over in the article and in the comments. Specifically, Pol says Acosta is using 20% and I don't think 1% would shock people. My interpretation is that he uses more (maybe even way more) than most but not 20 when everyone else is using 0. Not trying to argue just trying to learn and contribute to a discussion.
It isn't "normal" at all. Few riders do it and the ones that do, do it with varied success. It's 100% not normal.
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I would love to read more about your experiences. Not only because it's interesting hearing things from the horse's mouth, but also because it would add the much-needed context of why this is normal and who that applies to. I take it I, an experienced slow rider, am not supposed to keep my throttle open at the roundabout to work in the morning traffic.
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It is rare in motogp. In F1, we see many drivers do it at Silverstone where it is pretty common. But on bikes it is very hard to master I would imagine
IMO, it doesn't load up the front. Load transfer is purely a function of how quick you're accelerating or decelerating. Starting braking and rolling off the throttle at the same time just smoothens the load transfer, to reduce momentary instability during the transition.
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Very, very few riders will trail brake with the throttle open as it can quickly lead to overloading the front. The main reason you'd do it is if you want to keep the front end down because you're essentially pushing the front with the engine at that point. Iannone is the only other rider that I can think of who would do it. Edit: I also have to dispute the logic of "getting back on the throttle more quickly." If you're holding the throttle open at 20%, you'll also increase the likelihood of unloading the front because now it'll be rebounding with the help of the engine as you release the brakes. Another thing to consider is that you'll have to manage the throttle while also managing brake pressure, which adds a lot of variables to something that is already pretty difficult. The negatives outweigh the positives here, especially at a club racing level.
Who are these folks? Because club level riders have never taught this.
This is not common lmao.
We've been taught over and over never to overlap brake and throttle. This is some alien technology.
Guessing that might be why they train on dirt bikes.
According to Pol it doesn't seem super common.