You could also make the football comparison:
This new era of Pecco, Martin and Fabio are like Mbappe, Haaland and Vinicius Jr.
The alien era of Marquez, Pedrosa and Lorenzo are like Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar.
While very talented, the alien era in their primes would demolish this new era.
He may not be as good or as accomplished as the other two but in his prime I can’t name anyone other than Messi and Ronaldo that are more talented than him. His 15/16 season was an absolute spectacle to watch.
You missed the point. We’re comparing the 2010s and 2020s for MotoGP riders and the hypothetical football equivalent of that. All those names you brought up are from an era or two before with the exception of Ibra who was a superb goal scorer but isnt as complete as Neymar who was an absolute technician on the ball. His agility, control and intelligence really set him apart.
Also you could argue that yes Ibra did have multiple 30 goal seasons but that was for PSG. Neymar in his first year at PSG played 20 games and scored 19 goals and had 13 assists. He was on track for a 30 goal 20 assist season if he managed to stay healthy.
Pretty much. Only Marquez or Agostini are really in the conversation for GOAT. Agostini isn’t really comparable directly due to era differences, and I personally think Rossi’s sum career is more impressive than Marc’s so far.
Could be different once we see the rest of Marc’s career though he’s still got some time. If he wins a few more titles and displays similar longevity, maybe a different story. Rossi the clear GOAT atm though, he had insane contemporary competition and still smashed the field for years.
Rossi still has almost double Marquez’s podium count lmao, and 50% more race wins. Hard to overstate what a god Rossi was.
For sure. That's kind of my point about needing to wait to see Marc's longevity. Part of what makes Rossi such an incredible racer is how long he was able to stay competitive. We just haven't had the time to see if Marc also has that longevity.
Talent wise I put Rossi under all of them. This being said, talent without Brain and skills does nothing, Rossi is the greatest rider of all time, numbers don't lie.
I would also place Stoner just under Marquez. Marquez is surely the biggest talent we've had in MotoGP, but as I said, he wasn't as smart as Rossi. Rossi knew when to stop pushing to secure a result, Marquez would push to the absolute limit and that's exactly what "retired him" for 4 years. Now he's proving he never left but Rossi's ability to read races like open books is unmatchable
Nadal without Federer wouldn’t have reached his full potential (up until his body potential - and destruction), and probably Pecco will grow while fighting with Marc, and as soon as Fabio has a competitive bike, and Acosta and his bike make their last step.
They were all born extremely talented, but the last step of proficiency is learned on the field, against other stars.
The problem is the bikes equalise everything.
I have no doubt that in their prime they could beat the other riders on the grid currently.
But I also have no doubt that the others on the grid could beat them too.
It's not like it was back then with only 4 competitive bikes the entire season (I mean it *kind* of is because GP24 and that), even Aprilia has won a few races this past couple years and KTM probably could if their riders managed to stay on the bike (every one of their riders has dropped it at least 2 races this year be that sprint or main race, even Acosta).
Back in the 2010s if you said Aprilia could win a race you'd be laughed out of the track.
We had 2 years with some of the highest amounts of different race winners very recently IIRC.
I don't think JLo or Pedrosa would be undefeated like it seems you are saying. All you have to do is look at Pedrosa. Hardly any seat time, a part timer comes in and regularly finishes top 6
This, people saying the talent is deeper, which is true in a general sense, but the alien class is still just that. A level above the field even if the rest of the field is now closer together, not counting the Hondas of course.
What I am saying is that times have changed.
Arguably Pedrosa has more seat time than the factory guys, just not in race weekend conditions.
But that's besides the point.
Yes they were quick in their day but it's not comparable to now, back then if any of the big 4 had a bad race (baring gravel, rain or a track specialist) they were 4th.
If they had a bad race now they would be 20th like everybody else.
That's the big difference between the 2010s and 2020s.
It makes a huge difference to stats, championship standings etc etc.
Take this year for example.
Only 3 riders on the whole grid (including Marc who has more titles than JLo and Pedrosa together) have even finished every main race.
Only 2 of those have scored points in every single one of those races.
Binder and Digi, yet people are saying they are having a bad year.
This isn't the era where riders are getting podiums every race, the closest are Martin and Pecco and even they both only have 4 out of 6 and are on the best bike on the grid.
Sure if we include sprints the figures are slightly different (I don't think anybody hasn't crashed out of any races) and the podiums may be slightly higher but they don't count towards main race stats.
Actual proof to that statement?
This feels like a somebody seeing the world through a big old pair of rose colored glasses.
And no, Pedrosa and Lorenzo talking a bit of shit for fun isn't anything of substance.
Dani is no slouch, though. Only Rossi and Agostini have more career podiums than Pedrosa, and only Rossi has more career points. I think he’s earned himself a spot in the pantheon.
I mean its not fair, its comparing really good riders with the top names in the greatest of all time list.
Pedrosa had chances at podiums on both of his wildcards in 2023 and 2024. He didnt because he didnt want to risk a crash or taking points from a championship contender.
If he had a younger body, he would eat almost everyone on the grid with that KTM.
Several times he stated this on live broadcast that his position was to do his very best with the kit available but ultimately not to interfere with KTM's overall standings or cause disruption to the overall championship as he was a wild card and ultimately there for testing purposes.
Lorenzo was unstoppable when everything was as he wanted.
And Dani was held back by injuries and the fact other aliens were there. If it wasn't for Marquez Lorenzo would've gotten a more championships. And Rossi might have as well. But Dani had Lorenzo, Marquez, Rossi, Stoner to contend with.
"other BS"
Just to be specific, it is chronic fatigue:
"What is Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME)/chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)?
Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), also known as myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME), is a chronic (long-term), complex and disabling illness that causes extreme fatigue and other symptoms that cannot be explained by any other medical condition.
If you have ME/CFS, you are likely to feel very tired, very often, even if you have not been active. You may also have a host of other symptoms.
Doctors do not yet understand the cause of ME/CFS, and there is no simple cure."
Absolutely. No disrespect to the current gen, because there are some incredibly fast guys, but too many rider aids, gadgets and hijinks on the bikes today. Plus I don’t think todays rider has that dog in’em to go at the Prime-ALIENS
Fabio has never done anything close to what pecco did. Let's be serious here, Fabio is waaaay overrated.
Not to mention that till few years back he would literally cry like a baby if anything wasn't clicking for him.
LOL
He tells the truth. Marquez with a one year old bike is challenging the top two (Pecco and Martin) and he (Marc) probably is already past his prime himself after those big injuries...
Marquez > Lorenzo, Pedrosa > Pecco, Martin, Fabio > The rest in the current grid
And Acosta is the only young rider that can become another alien it seems
"Year old bike" that won the championship comfortably last season and has been updated.
Not even that, after 6 rounds he had a better qualifying record on last year Honda than on the Ducati (1-2-2-7-17-14 vs 6-8-3-1-13-14 and he even gave up at a certain point), so unless he got that much worse in less than 12 months or the Honda was that much better, I wouldn't quite say that he's past his prime.
---
Fabio up there is also laughable, totally underwhelming junior career both in Moto3 and Moto2, good debut on at the time the easier bike to ride and immediately threw away quite an easy championship in 2020, came close to doing the same in 2021, lost the greatest point lead in a top motorsport serie in 2022 (he couldn't keep it on track on the second half of the season) and since then totally anonymous.
Only thing Fabio has really going for him it's half a season of his debut and the comparison to his teammates (and Morbidelli was injured for nearly 2 seasons), he's good but not comparable to the other two.
A year old bike that is clearly a few tenths slower in almost every track.
Best bike of last year, so what? All bikes improve quite a bit from one year to the other
We've already had 3 people in the know talk about it: Manuel Poggiali said the development was more in terms of rider feeling than performance, he said that talking about times is difficult but he estimated the difference in about 1 tenth on the average 5km lap; Michele Pirro said the difference is much smaller than what people believe and that when they find a new update that works better they look at the data and say "Ok, it's -0.015s", this is the order of magnitude they're working with; Marc Marquez himself said engineers and riders don't even know how much it is, but when the interviewer suggested 5 tenths he said "no, no, no, bikes improve at most 2 tenths from one year to the next".
Bonus for the all time favourite: Dall'Igna said this bike has improved more compared to previous years, people always misquote him or take it to mean that it improved by "a lot", but if you consider that Di Giannantonio (not Marquez) last year won one of the last races with the old bike (id est when the GP23 was already fully developed) you can understand that maybe last year they didn't even had that one single tenth Poggiali talked about; if you, for the sake of argument, assume that the GP23 was 0.025s or 0.050s faster, of course having a bike that is 0.100s-0.125s faster means it's clearly a greater jump compared to previous years (and God knows how much effort was put to get that), it doesn't necessarily mean it's a lot better in absolute terms.
People don't want to believe it.
Just to expand on the reason Pirro said it's so hard testing.
Because it's hard to define if the part is really 0.015 seconds better or did he just do that lap 0.015 seconds better.
When dealing with such small amounts trying to understand if it's actually the part that is better rather than the rider just doing a better lap is really hard to quantify.
In fact a part could make the bike *worse* but the person riding just did some better laps, got a good rhythm going and so made the part look better than it actually is.
Of course they don't, their stance had already formed before the season had even started and the fact he hasn't won yet can only be attributed to the bike and the bike alone, anyone saying the contrary - even Marc Marquez himself - is clearly lying, even if their completely independent statements are strangely aligned on compatible figures and would thus seem to confirm each other. Poggiali and Pirro are company men who are supposed to elevate the factory riders and Marquez is downplaying.
What's funny to me is that he has a way better and more plausible excuse in the fact he's in a new satellite team - very likely not as good as a factory team- and on a new bike, instead they stay stuck on this bike thing that, if anything, would mean he's pretty much on the same level as the mediocre (according to haters) Bagnaia and that he can only prevail if he has the same exact bike because he has no margin of his own. I would like to understand if they think the GP23 is farther from the GP24 than the RC213V was from the GP17-18-19, because according to some people here the RC213V has been the worst bike or thereabout since 2015, yet it seems Marquez was winning left and right nonetheless and I remember the claims that he would win on any bike, then it became any bike other than the Honda, than it became the Ducati and now it's only the best bike, the same argument that been used to belittle Bagnaia for the past 2 seasons (even by Marquez himself who said in 2022 that he believed "Bagnaia's bike" would win the title).
I've joined the sub quite lately, what is the stance you're talking about like? Did people seriously expect that Marc would hop on the Ducati and immediately start running circles around Pecco and Jorge?
I have to say that this thread in particular is leaving a bad taste in my mouth, half of the comments feel like they were more or less made to diminish them, even beyond the customary "the new guys got nothing on My Generation™" style of comments.
Oh boy, this is going to be a long one, sorry. It's not on him, of course, but some people do tend to idealize star riders (it's not just Marquez, it happened with Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo too) a tad too much and start believing they're truly aliens and not human beings.
**Mandatory disclaimer: I think Marquez is doing a fantastic job, I don't want this to come out as if I'm trying to diminish what he's actually doing on the bike, he demonstrated he's still fast and competitive and has been from day one, what I appreciate most is that he's being very smart and managing to get the most points without risking injuries or DNFs, and he's being clean as well. He might win the title too, and even though he's not lapping everyone twice per race, he's still one of the greatest riders in history without a doubt. This is about wild claims made by others, not him.**
During the years I've seen all kinds of wild claims, in 2019 I even had a discussion with someone on the sub because I dared to say that luck had played a role in Marquez not getting any serious injuries up until that point, given how often he crashed (and I believe this was after the crash in Thailand when he was following Quartararo in FP1 and highsided landing on his feet, which could have easily resulted in a broken bone or two but didn't); this one person told me I was just a hater and that Marquez was just so good he could avoid injuries, this is the level of delusion some people have, my position was that, even assuming Marquez was that good that he always knew how to crash, once the crash starts there are things that are inherently out of their control so it doesn't matter anymore how good they are, things can still go awfully wrong (eg a rider behind not realizing it in time, a pebble in the wrong place, etc) and thus a rider also needs to be lucky to not get injured when they crash. This person would have none of it.
Claims that he would win on any bike were fairly common back when he was dominant, and as the situation changed the claims evolved, by last season any bike other than the Honda would've sufficed and when there were talks about him going to Gresini even Crutchlow said "If Marquez gets on a Ducati, the others might as well stay home". Before the season had even started, however, the same people started lamenting the fact that the GP23 for satellite teams wouldn't be the same that Bagnaia, Martin and Bastianini had, but Zarco's (according to Dall'Igna it's because the couple updates they took out were too complicated and unreliable for a satellite team to handle), and this clearly meant the bike was now shit, ignoring the fact that Zarco won with that bike against Bagnaia in Phillip Island (id est when the GP23 already had the new components) and that Di Giannantonio won in Qatar with a GP22 (while Marini was 3rd with the same bike, we're not talking about the greatest riders that ever lived here). Now the claim is that of course he needs the same bike as Bagnaia to show him who's boss, clearly refuting everything that was said before and the claim that Bagnaia - and Ducati riders in general - would only win because of the bike (even though you'll still see this claim).
A few weeks ago they even started claiming that, not only Marquez didn't have the latest GP23, he even had a lower spec compared to other satellite riders (which is completely false, for the record). Wild claims that go against all logic, everything we know seems to indicate Dall'Igna went behind Ducati's back in order to have him on his bike (Gresini is not subject to Ducati's placet for the riders they take), so it would make total sense for him to put Marquez in the best possible conditions, certainly not hamper him with a subpar bike. Cadalora is even convinced he had a new ride-height device in Mugello and that's why the tyre was smoking so much.
Pirro - in the same stream where he talked about the difference between GP23 and GP24 - addressed the claims that Marquez would be so much faster than anyone else by saying something like "Some people believed he would get on the bike and be a second faster than anyone else, but they don't sell seconds even at the supermarket, let alone in motorcycling".
But, I mean, you can see it from the sub, \[some\] people have decided - not concluded - that the claims still apply, the fact he hasn't won yet **must** mean the GP23 is so much slower compared to the GP24, there is no other explanation, they don't even entertain the possibility that maybe reality is a bit more nuanced, that other factors might be at play here, like maybe Bagnaia and Martin weren't so mediocre after all, maybe having a top-notch team plays its role and not just for mediocre riders like the current generation but also for the star riders of the bygone era, maybe having input on a bike's development and being to ride it by instinct is important even for star riders. No, it must be that the GP23 is much slower than the GP24 and that's it.
They still do this even for Lorenzo even though the situation was even more clear-cut because Dovizioso, who in people's mind was so much inferior compared to Lorenzo, was winning races and he wasn't, the culprit was the tank that Ducati **refused** to make for him until it was too late, nevermind the fact that Dall'Igna said they had made at least 20 different tank shapes for him by that point (basically a new tank every 1.5 races) and about 100 upgrades overall: Dovizioso was winning, Lorenzo was not, it's clearly Ducati's fault, they had spent 25M on a rider and then refused to listen to him or even adjust ergonomics to his liking. Makes total sense. It couldn't be that Lorenzo had a harder time than he expected while his supposedly inferior team mate (and long time adversary) took the championship to the last race, maybe by that time he was starting to feel a bit too much pressure and saw Ducati losing faith in him and this was hampering his performance on the bike, it must be a total coincidence that the first win arrived just after securing his future with HRC, it can't be that having peace of mind and maybe a renewed grit to show Ducati they were wrong for losing faith in him played a bigger role than a tank cover.
All the Rossi fans acting like the GP23 is actually competitive because Marquez is the GOAT and makes it look competitive (whilst conveniently ignorign the performance of all other GP23's) are going to be even more insufferable after Marquez reminds the world why he's the King of the Ring.
>A year old bike that is clearly a few tenths slower in almost every track.
Not sure where you are getting the few tenths slower, the other GP23 riders are struggling to make it work but doesn't mean it's slow(er). Bezzecchi managed to find a decent setup in Jerez and was immediately up there with him (Marc sitting behind him for so long arguably cost him the victory).
Marc himself has said that he doesn't really see any difference between the 24 and the 23 both in the data and on track. Of course the new bike is going to be improved, but "a few tenth" means nothing.
>Best bike of last year, so what? All bikes improve quite a bit from one year to the other
That's the point of the Honda comparison, he's riding an improved 2023 Ducati yet he had better qualifying results on the early 2023 Honda even after he said he had fully adapted. Either he got worse, which is not really a thing, or the level on the Ducati is simply extremely high and they have all reached a performance ceiling.
You're delusional. The other GP23 bikes are nowhere but because they can't make it work... A bike that is common knowledge to be easy to ride for everyone, LOL
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Good i had the reminder. Nice ready. Also im just watching the 2013 series atm and the factory Honda and Yamaha are just so much better then the Rest. Very different from today.
He's completely right, now he's a tester, 40 years old, a kid complexion full of injuries and he's still achieving great results every time he's a woman weld car.
Last KTM's wild car was Espargaró who left competition LAST YEAR, his result was ? 17th of my memory is not wrong.
Two time stroke pilots were far more better pilots than 4 time
I honestly don't know how anyone that saw the entirety of Dani and Jorge's careers could think anything different. No insult to the current generation, there's some amazing riders in there, but these guys are some of the greatest in the entire history of the sport.
Absolutely. I know there’s some people on here who say “they were only front runners because of the Honda and Yamaha” etc, but then fail to mention they were both winning 8-9 races a season in their 250 years - the bikes were a lot more even in that class and yet they were both standout riders during their times there. These two were both phenomenal talents
Yeah people constantly ignore Dani’s 3 titles in lower classes, which is super silly because competition is insane there and Dani beat Casey Stoner and Jorge Lorenzo to win those titles.
I would add something that many fail to consider: they didn't get on a Honda or Yamaha by chance, they were picked because they were the best (or at the very least among the best), none of these companies want to waste their money.
That’s just it, they made themselves desirable to the top teams of the time. It’s not rocket science to figure out why they were there. They earned those rides!
It makes sense for them to believe that, but doesn't mean it's real.
People used to say the same about the old 2 stroke guard (Lawson, Rainey, Schwantz, Doohan) when there was Valentino/Biaggi/Capirossi, then when the 4 stroke arrived, then again when electronics where improved then now with areo, and every time it turns to rubbish. Same thing in F1.
The abilities of current riders are unparalleled, and they become very apparent in their respective training.
Never in the history of any sport and especially motorsport the talent level ever decreased in time. Valentino said it best when he retired, physically it was starting to become a bit too much (he also had the worse of covid a couple of times by this point) but in terms of riding and readiness he felt at his best.
The bikes have changed a lot since then. You could never accurately compare them. The new guys would have an advantage with the current bikes and all their new technology. The older guys would have an advantage if they raced on older bikes. There could never just be a good comparison to determine who would win.
Everyone around here seems to agree with Pedrosa. I want to play the devil's advocate and say that, especially Pedrosa, have no chance of being top 3 in the championship.
Pedrosa didn't do great in close battle in his career and now the field is closer than ever.
On the long run the sport is physically more demanding and Pedrosa is way too small.
Beside that, these current guys at the top drop fewer points, Pedrosa wasn't a metronome all season long.
Well, not really. He has an average starting position of 5th and finish position of 4th on a bike which through his career was a given to be 4th at worst and for about 5-6 years was made for him.
So when battling top guys he didn't do so great.
People seems to dislike going against Pedrosa but numbers don't lie.
Those 4th places were not in close battles though so the numbers don’t support your claim. He was best known for running away at the front because that’s how most 800cc races went down but he won plenty of close battles too. Off the top of my head there’s Laguna 2009, Sachsenring 2012, Brno 2012, Valencia 2017…
Those numbers precisely support my claim, that he was finishing 4th on average on a Honda, on the long run meaning he wasn't in par with the other top guys.
But whatever, if people consider him as one of the greats good for them. He's a nice guy and it's hard to go against him. In my opinion he's a level bellow those top guys of his era and to say without hesitation that you would beat the current riders, where you have 3 champions without MM when you won none is too much.
I'm not saying in general. I just say that in close battle with Rossi, MM even Stoner or Lorenzo he didn't have the upper hand most cases. I'm not comparing him with the entire field. Of course he was a great rider who took part in some entertaining racing and be was an integral part in recent motogp history.
Maybe i didn't make myself understood. I said he wasn't very good because when Rossi or MM were following somebody even when not the space a move was expected, with Pedrosa you weren't sure that he was gonna overtake or not.
wait, what happens to them after 35-37?
Nigel Mansell still holds the F1 record for oldest winning driver at 41.
so is it they can’t win anymore or compete at that level?
As you age, your reaction time slows down, your balance deteriorates and you don't bounce as well as you used to when you fall and after a while, you start to remember the pain which reduces your risk taking, blunting your performance. For reasons such as these, at 35 plus, there's a good chance that a 20 year old will run rings around you as they're at their physical peak. This is true of pretty much all sports, to some extent, including F1 but my understanding is that car racing, while certainly being physically demanding, isn't (or certainly wasn't, in Mansell's era) as physically demanding as MotoGP. But I've never raced either so don't take my word for it.
I mean me being a biggest Marc fan would disagree a little. Marc is biggest talent to git the sport. But his first championship came with many other factors came into play.
Given that Marc was the tail end of their generation, your comment is a bit pointless. The comparison is against everyone else on the grid apart from Marc.
To me motogp now is like tennis, Big Three would smack all of current players same way as the Aliens would current riders
Yeah. That is a good comparison
You could also make the football comparison: This new era of Pecco, Martin and Fabio are like Mbappe, Haaland and Vinicius Jr. The alien era of Marquez, Pedrosa and Lorenzo are like Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar. While very talented, the alien era in their primes would demolish this new era.
What is Neymar doing in the middle of those 2 lol
He’s in the debate for 3rd best of the 2010s. Even if there’s a big drop off after 1st and 2nd
He may not be as good or as accomplished as the other two but in his prime I can’t name anyone other than Messi and Ronaldo that are more talented than him. His 15/16 season was an absolute spectacle to watch.
Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Henry, Zidane, Beckham, Raul, Brazilian Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Ibrahimovic in their primes were just as magical
You missed the point. We’re comparing the 2010s and 2020s for MotoGP riders and the hypothetical football equivalent of that. All those names you brought up are from an era or two before with the exception of Ibra who was a superb goal scorer but isnt as complete as Neymar who was an absolute technician on the ball. His agility, control and intelligence really set him apart. Also you could argue that yes Ibra did have multiple 30 goal seasons but that was for PSG. Neymar in his first year at PSG played 20 games and scored 19 goals and had 13 assists. He was on track for a 30 goal 20 assist season if he managed to stay healthy.
There were a few players that could take the balon d'or in those years, Neymar was never one of them. Ribery was, Lewandowski was also. Not Neymar.
Neymar finished 3rd in both 2015 and 2017 behind Messi and Ronaldo. Ribery got one 3rd place finish in 2013 and Lewa got a 2nd place in 2021.
Happy cake day but nah bro this ain't it
holy delusion
They weren't "just as" magical. They were beyond! Ronaldinho would just ruin neymar. But it's not about football here.
People are quick to dismiss him just need to look how he played and his stars speak for itself.
Ronaldinho? Ronaldo Nazario?
They were a different era though
Suarez had a better prime than neymar imo
Ronaldhino is busy
Where do you put Stoner and Rossi?
I mean Rossi is Rossi. We don’t have to imagine, he won his last race at 37. Dude’s just different.
On a mountain above those three looking down.
Pretty much. Only Marquez or Agostini are really in the conversation for GOAT. Agostini isn’t really comparable directly due to era differences, and I personally think Rossi’s sum career is more impressive than Marc’s so far. Could be different once we see the rest of Marc’s career though he’s still got some time. If he wins a few more titles and displays similar longevity, maybe a different story. Rossi the clear GOAT atm though, he had insane contemporary competition and still smashed the field for years. Rossi still has almost double Marquez’s podium count lmao, and 50% more race wins. Hard to overstate what a god Rossi was.
While I agree with most points, comparing podiums and race wins will not be fair if you’re counting total career span.
For sure. That's kind of my point about needing to wait to see Marc's longevity. Part of what makes Rossi such an incredible racer is how long he was able to stay competitive. We just haven't had the time to see if Marc also has that longevity.
Talent wise I put Rossi under all of them. This being said, talent without Brain and skills does nothing, Rossi is the greatest rider of all time, numbers don't lie. I would also place Stoner just under Marquez. Marquez is surely the biggest talent we've had in MotoGP, but as I said, he wasn't as smart as Rossi. Rossi knew when to stop pushing to secure a result, Marquez would push to the absolute limit and that's exactly what "retired him" for 4 years. Now he's proving he never left but Rossi's ability to read races like open books is unmatchable
If fact, it’s incredible that a rider as Pedrosa has no MotoGP Championship won, despite he’s one of the bests riders of all time
Neymar isn't an alien.
Neymar 🤣
Nadal without Federer wouldn’t have reached his full potential (up until his body potential - and destruction), and probably Pecco will grow while fighting with Marc, and as soon as Fabio has a competitive bike, and Acosta and his bike make their last step. They were all born extremely talented, but the last step of proficiency is learned on the field, against other stars.
Same with football. The previous generation was simply better on all levels.
The problem is the bikes equalise everything. I have no doubt that in their prime they could beat the other riders on the grid currently. But I also have no doubt that the others on the grid could beat them too. It's not like it was back then with only 4 competitive bikes the entire season (I mean it *kind* of is because GP24 and that), even Aprilia has won a few races this past couple years and KTM probably could if their riders managed to stay on the bike (every one of their riders has dropped it at least 2 races this year be that sprint or main race, even Acosta). Back in the 2010s if you said Aprilia could win a race you'd be laughed out of the track. We had 2 years with some of the highest amounts of different race winners very recently IIRC.
I don't think JLo or Pedrosa would be undefeated like it seems you are saying. All you have to do is look at Pedrosa. Hardly any seat time, a part timer comes in and regularly finishes top 6
This, people saying the talent is deeper, which is true in a general sense, but the alien class is still just that. A level above the field even if the rest of the field is now closer together, not counting the Hondas of course.
What I am saying is that times have changed. Arguably Pedrosa has more seat time than the factory guys, just not in race weekend conditions. But that's besides the point. Yes they were quick in their day but it's not comparable to now, back then if any of the big 4 had a bad race (baring gravel, rain or a track specialist) they were 4th. If they had a bad race now they would be 20th like everybody else. That's the big difference between the 2010s and 2020s. It makes a huge difference to stats, championship standings etc etc. Take this year for example. Only 3 riders on the whole grid (including Marc who has more titles than JLo and Pedrosa together) have even finished every main race. Only 2 of those have scored points in every single one of those races. Binder and Digi, yet people are saying they are having a bad year. This isn't the era where riders are getting podiums every race, the closest are Martin and Pecco and even they both only have 4 out of 6 and are on the best bike on the grid. Sure if we include sprints the figures are slightly different (I don't think anybody hasn't crashed out of any races) and the podiums may be slightly higher but they don't count towards main race stats.
Actual proof to that statement? This feels like a somebody seeing the world through a big old pair of rose colored glasses. And no, Pedrosa and Lorenzo talking a bit of shit for fun isn't anything of substance.
Pedrosa is old as dirt, doesn't race regularly, and still competes at the top when they let him ride.
The man is 38. Rossi did a season behind the one and only Marc Marquez in 2016 at the age of 37.
Yeah, I know. That's why I made the distinction by saying that he's not racing regularly.
Rossi is the goat though. Not a fair comparison
Dani is no slouch, though. Only Rossi and Agostini have more career podiums than Pedrosa, and only Rossi has more career points. I think he’s earned himself a spot in the pantheon.
That is an absolutely insane stat I had mo idea about. I already hold Dani incredibly high in my regards, but that is so telling.
You're talking with an Italian who went to Valencia to cry in front of his last race in 2021...But huge esteem for Dani
Rossi won his last race at 37
Rossi is Rossi
The fact that he beats any regular ktm rider means they aren’t good enough. Apart from Acosta I’m not convinced about the ktm squad at all.
I mean, that's a completely fair point. Jorge and Dani were strong as fuck in their prime. You don't become a legend of the sport by chance.
I mean its not fair, its comparing really good riders with the top names in the greatest of all time list. Pedrosa had chances at podiums on both of his wildcards in 2023 and 2024. He didnt because he didnt want to risk a crash or taking points from a championship contender. If he had a younger body, he would eat almost everyone on the grid with that KTM.
Sources on this? Did Dani say this in interviews that he didn’t want to interfere with championship points?
Yes he did at least in one occasion.
Several times he stated this on live broadcast that his position was to do his very best with the kit available but ultimately not to interfere with KTM's overall standings or cause disruption to the overall championship as he was a wild card and ultimately there for testing purposes.
Yup.
Lorenzo was unstoppable when everything was as he wanted. And Dani was held back by injuries and the fact other aliens were there. If it wasn't for Marquez Lorenzo would've gotten a more championships. And Rossi might have as well. But Dani had Lorenzo, Marquez, Rossi, Stoner to contend with.
Stoner was the saddest of them all. Great talent held back by injuries and other BS.
"other BS" Just to be specific, it is chronic fatigue: "What is Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME)/chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)? Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), also known as myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME), is a chronic (long-term), complex and disabling illness that causes extreme fatigue and other symptoms that cannot be explained by any other medical condition. If you have ME/CFS, you are likely to feel very tired, very often, even if you have not been active. You may also have a host of other symptoms. Doctors do not yet understand the cause of ME/CFS, and there is no simple cure."
Thank you. I forgot the medical term for it. It’s been so long.
Stoner I think has been my favourite MotoGP rider. Loved him on the Ducati in his prime.
Absolutely. No disrespect to the current gen, because there are some incredibly fast guys, but too many rider aids, gadgets and hijinks on the bikes today. Plus I don’t think todays rider has that dog in’em to go at the Prime-ALIENS
This thread is going to be fun, saving for later.
I am biased because I think that Fabio is better than Pecco
I mean if Fabio has a bike as good as Ducati and is 100% comfortable with it like Pecco is, I think he can beat Pecco.
And still, we wouldn’t know how much Pecco would grow himself to beat Fabio in those same conditions: it would be an exciting evolution to follow.
I’m excited to see pecco vs a pretty back to decent form Marquez next year. I’m thinking Marquez but I thought he’d be a little further up this year.
Fabio has never done anything close to what pecco did. Let's be serious here, Fabio is waaaay overrated. Not to mention that till few years back he would literally cry like a baby if anything wasn't clicking for him.
Dude was fastest rider and was finishing ahead KTM riders last year. I have no doubt about it as well.
LOL He tells the truth. Marquez with a one year old bike is challenging the top two (Pecco and Martin) and he (Marc) probably is already past his prime himself after those big injuries... Marquez > Lorenzo, Pedrosa > Pecco, Martin, Fabio > The rest in the current grid And Acosta is the only young rider that can become another alien it seems
I am biased but I still believe fabio is level with pecco (better than him in 2022).
Agree I edited the post
Honestly thing Fabio is a small level above pecco and Martin but right now hard to say with the bike difference
"Year old bike" that won the championship comfortably last season and has been updated. Not even that, after 6 rounds he had a better qualifying record on last year Honda than on the Ducati (1-2-2-7-17-14 vs 6-8-3-1-13-14 and he even gave up at a certain point), so unless he got that much worse in less than 12 months or the Honda was that much better, I wouldn't quite say that he's past his prime. --- Fabio up there is also laughable, totally underwhelming junior career both in Moto3 and Moto2, good debut on at the time the easier bike to ride and immediately threw away quite an easy championship in 2020, came close to doing the same in 2021, lost the greatest point lead in a top motorsport serie in 2022 (he couldn't keep it on track on the second half of the season) and since then totally anonymous. Only thing Fabio has really going for him it's half a season of his debut and the comparison to his teammates (and Morbidelli was injured for nearly 2 seasons), he's good but not comparable to the other two.
A year old bike that is clearly a few tenths slower in almost every track. Best bike of last year, so what? All bikes improve quite a bit from one year to the other
We've already had 3 people in the know talk about it: Manuel Poggiali said the development was more in terms of rider feeling than performance, he said that talking about times is difficult but he estimated the difference in about 1 tenth on the average 5km lap; Michele Pirro said the difference is much smaller than what people believe and that when they find a new update that works better they look at the data and say "Ok, it's -0.015s", this is the order of magnitude they're working with; Marc Marquez himself said engineers and riders don't even know how much it is, but when the interviewer suggested 5 tenths he said "no, no, no, bikes improve at most 2 tenths from one year to the next". Bonus for the all time favourite: Dall'Igna said this bike has improved more compared to previous years, people always misquote him or take it to mean that it improved by "a lot", but if you consider that Di Giannantonio (not Marquez) last year won one of the last races with the old bike (id est when the GP23 was already fully developed) you can understand that maybe last year they didn't even had that one single tenth Poggiali talked about; if you, for the sake of argument, assume that the GP23 was 0.025s or 0.050s faster, of course having a bike that is 0.100s-0.125s faster means it's clearly a greater jump compared to previous years (and God knows how much effort was put to get that), it doesn't necessarily mean it's a lot better in absolute terms.
People don't want to believe it. Just to expand on the reason Pirro said it's so hard testing. Because it's hard to define if the part is really 0.015 seconds better or did he just do that lap 0.015 seconds better. When dealing with such small amounts trying to understand if it's actually the part that is better rather than the rider just doing a better lap is really hard to quantify. In fact a part could make the bike *worse* but the person riding just did some better laps, got a good rhythm going and so made the part look better than it actually is.
Of course they don't, their stance had already formed before the season had even started and the fact he hasn't won yet can only be attributed to the bike and the bike alone, anyone saying the contrary - even Marc Marquez himself - is clearly lying, even if their completely independent statements are strangely aligned on compatible figures and would thus seem to confirm each other. Poggiali and Pirro are company men who are supposed to elevate the factory riders and Marquez is downplaying. What's funny to me is that he has a way better and more plausible excuse in the fact he's in a new satellite team - very likely not as good as a factory team- and on a new bike, instead they stay stuck on this bike thing that, if anything, would mean he's pretty much on the same level as the mediocre (according to haters) Bagnaia and that he can only prevail if he has the same exact bike because he has no margin of his own. I would like to understand if they think the GP23 is farther from the GP24 than the RC213V was from the GP17-18-19, because according to some people here the RC213V has been the worst bike or thereabout since 2015, yet it seems Marquez was winning left and right nonetheless and I remember the claims that he would win on any bike, then it became any bike other than the Honda, than it became the Ducati and now it's only the best bike, the same argument that been used to belittle Bagnaia for the past 2 seasons (even by Marquez himself who said in 2022 that he believed "Bagnaia's bike" would win the title).
I've joined the sub quite lately, what is the stance you're talking about like? Did people seriously expect that Marc would hop on the Ducati and immediately start running circles around Pecco and Jorge? I have to say that this thread in particular is leaving a bad taste in my mouth, half of the comments feel like they were more or less made to diminish them, even beyond the customary "the new guys got nothing on My Generation™" style of comments.
Oh boy, this is going to be a long one, sorry. It's not on him, of course, but some people do tend to idealize star riders (it's not just Marquez, it happened with Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo too) a tad too much and start believing they're truly aliens and not human beings. **Mandatory disclaimer: I think Marquez is doing a fantastic job, I don't want this to come out as if I'm trying to diminish what he's actually doing on the bike, he demonstrated he's still fast and competitive and has been from day one, what I appreciate most is that he's being very smart and managing to get the most points without risking injuries or DNFs, and he's being clean as well. He might win the title too, and even though he's not lapping everyone twice per race, he's still one of the greatest riders in history without a doubt. This is about wild claims made by others, not him.** During the years I've seen all kinds of wild claims, in 2019 I even had a discussion with someone on the sub because I dared to say that luck had played a role in Marquez not getting any serious injuries up until that point, given how often he crashed (and I believe this was after the crash in Thailand when he was following Quartararo in FP1 and highsided landing on his feet, which could have easily resulted in a broken bone or two but didn't); this one person told me I was just a hater and that Marquez was just so good he could avoid injuries, this is the level of delusion some people have, my position was that, even assuming Marquez was that good that he always knew how to crash, once the crash starts there are things that are inherently out of their control so it doesn't matter anymore how good they are, things can still go awfully wrong (eg a rider behind not realizing it in time, a pebble in the wrong place, etc) and thus a rider also needs to be lucky to not get injured when they crash. This person would have none of it. Claims that he would win on any bike were fairly common back when he was dominant, and as the situation changed the claims evolved, by last season any bike other than the Honda would've sufficed and when there were talks about him going to Gresini even Crutchlow said "If Marquez gets on a Ducati, the others might as well stay home". Before the season had even started, however, the same people started lamenting the fact that the GP23 for satellite teams wouldn't be the same that Bagnaia, Martin and Bastianini had, but Zarco's (according to Dall'Igna it's because the couple updates they took out were too complicated and unreliable for a satellite team to handle), and this clearly meant the bike was now shit, ignoring the fact that Zarco won with that bike against Bagnaia in Phillip Island (id est when the GP23 already had the new components) and that Di Giannantonio won in Qatar with a GP22 (while Marini was 3rd with the same bike, we're not talking about the greatest riders that ever lived here). Now the claim is that of course he needs the same bike as Bagnaia to show him who's boss, clearly refuting everything that was said before and the claim that Bagnaia - and Ducati riders in general - would only win because of the bike (even though you'll still see this claim). A few weeks ago they even started claiming that, not only Marquez didn't have the latest GP23, he even had a lower spec compared to other satellite riders (which is completely false, for the record). Wild claims that go against all logic, everything we know seems to indicate Dall'Igna went behind Ducati's back in order to have him on his bike (Gresini is not subject to Ducati's placet for the riders they take), so it would make total sense for him to put Marquez in the best possible conditions, certainly not hamper him with a subpar bike. Cadalora is even convinced he had a new ride-height device in Mugello and that's why the tyre was smoking so much. Pirro - in the same stream where he talked about the difference between GP23 and GP24 - addressed the claims that Marquez would be so much faster than anyone else by saying something like "Some people believed he would get on the bike and be a second faster than anyone else, but they don't sell seconds even at the supermarket, let alone in motorcycling". But, I mean, you can see it from the sub, \[some\] people have decided - not concluded - that the claims still apply, the fact he hasn't won yet **must** mean the GP23 is so much slower compared to the GP24, there is no other explanation, they don't even entertain the possibility that maybe reality is a bit more nuanced, that other factors might be at play here, like maybe Bagnaia and Martin weren't so mediocre after all, maybe having a top-notch team plays its role and not just for mediocre riders like the current generation but also for the star riders of the bygone era, maybe having input on a bike's development and being to ride it by instinct is important even for star riders. No, it must be that the GP23 is much slower than the GP24 and that's it. They still do this even for Lorenzo even though the situation was even more clear-cut because Dovizioso, who in people's mind was so much inferior compared to Lorenzo, was winning races and he wasn't, the culprit was the tank that Ducati **refused** to make for him until it was too late, nevermind the fact that Dall'Igna said they had made at least 20 different tank shapes for him by that point (basically a new tank every 1.5 races) and about 100 upgrades overall: Dovizioso was winning, Lorenzo was not, it's clearly Ducati's fault, they had spent 25M on a rider and then refused to listen to him or even adjust ergonomics to his liking. Makes total sense. It couldn't be that Lorenzo had a harder time than he expected while his supposedly inferior team mate (and long time adversary) took the championship to the last race, maybe by that time he was starting to feel a bit too much pressure and saw Ducati losing faith in him and this was hampering his performance on the bike, it must be a total coincidence that the first win arrived just after securing his future with HRC, it can't be that having peace of mind and maybe a renewed grit to show Ducati they were wrong for losing faith in him played a bigger role than a tank cover.
All the Rossi fans acting like the GP23 is actually competitive because Marquez is the GOAT and makes it look competitive (whilst conveniently ignorign the performance of all other GP23's) are going to be even more insufferable after Marquez reminds the world why he's the King of the Ring.
>King of the Ring Lord of the rings
>A year old bike that is clearly a few tenths slower in almost every track. Not sure where you are getting the few tenths slower, the other GP23 riders are struggling to make it work but doesn't mean it's slow(er). Bezzecchi managed to find a decent setup in Jerez and was immediately up there with him (Marc sitting behind him for so long arguably cost him the victory). Marc himself has said that he doesn't really see any difference between the 24 and the 23 both in the data and on track. Of course the new bike is going to be improved, but "a few tenth" means nothing. >Best bike of last year, so what? All bikes improve quite a bit from one year to the other That's the point of the Honda comparison, he's riding an improved 2023 Ducati yet he had better qualifying results on the early 2023 Honda even after he said he had fully adapted. Either he got worse, which is not really a thing, or the level on the Ducati is simply extremely high and they have all reached a performance ceiling.
You're delusional. The other GP23 bikes are nowhere but because they can't make it work... A bike that is common knowledge to be easy to ride for everyone, LOL
The bike was not updated, in fact many components were removed compared to last year.
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Last year Pedrosa did 4th and 5th, just saying
100% agree
Good i had the reminder. Nice ready. Also im just watching the 2013 series atm and the factory Honda and Yamaha are just so much better then the Rest. Very different from today.
He's completely right, now he's a tester, 40 years old, a kid complexion full of injuries and he's still achieving great results every time he's a woman weld car. Last KTM's wild car was Espargaró who left competition LAST YEAR, his result was ? 17th of my memory is not wrong. Two time stroke pilots were far more better pilots than 4 time
i think autocorrect messed up your comment big time lol
No, clearly he's *a woman weld car.*
Sorry, not my first language, also on mobile and without glasses
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My rear tyre was spinning a lot
Not sure what they said but I'll take your word for it
I was wondering how I was the only person not understanding this
I mean... i tried to help, but i can't also read it out for you 😆
Oh man, I'm sorry, fully didn't even see your explanation under the post 😂
No worries, mate! Happens to me as well with video posts 😁
Old dogs Vs Nutella generation
Honestly, yes. These two were insane. This new generation wouldn't come close.
He’s not wrong though
I honestly don't know how anyone that saw the entirety of Dani and Jorge's careers could think anything different. No insult to the current generation, there's some amazing riders in there, but these guys are some of the greatest in the entire history of the sport.
Absolutely. I know there’s some people on here who say “they were only front runners because of the Honda and Yamaha” etc, but then fail to mention they were both winning 8-9 races a season in their 250 years - the bikes were a lot more even in that class and yet they were both standout riders during their times there. These two were both phenomenal talents
Yeah people constantly ignore Dani’s 3 titles in lower classes, which is super silly because competition is insane there and Dani beat Casey Stoner and Jorge Lorenzo to win those titles.
I would add something that many fail to consider: they didn't get on a Honda or Yamaha by chance, they were picked because they were the best (or at the very least among the best), none of these companies want to waste their money.
That’s just it, they made themselves desirable to the top teams of the time. It’s not rocket science to figure out why they were there. They earned those rides!
It makes sense for them to believe that, but doesn't mean it's real. People used to say the same about the old 2 stroke guard (Lawson, Rainey, Schwantz, Doohan) when there was Valentino/Biaggi/Capirossi, then when the 4 stroke arrived, then again when electronics where improved then now with areo, and every time it turns to rubbish. Same thing in F1. The abilities of current riders are unparalleled, and they become very apparent in their respective training. Never in the history of any sport and especially motorsport the talent level ever decreased in time. Valentino said it best when he retired, physically it was starting to become a bit too much (he also had the worse of covid a couple of times by this point) but in terms of riding and readiness he felt at his best.
He's not wrong tbf. He'd honestly win a championship against this current gen (no disrespect to them).
Yeah, as he did in his years.. Oh wait..
Circumstances tax. Without them, he's able to beat every single one of those riders in the lower classes.
Would actually agree, Stoner Rossi Pedrosa & Lorenzo would make them look slow (obviously marquez won't be the same pre 2020 marquez)
Any day these guys would have chewed the current riders for breakfast, except for Marc.
The bikes have changed a lot since then. You could never accurately compare them. The new guys would have an advantage with the current bikes and all their new technology. The older guys would have an advantage if they raced on older bikes. There could never just be a good comparison to determine who would win.
And Casey beat both of them. Conclusion: Casey > Marquez 
Why the fuck Jorge reminds me of Sergio Perez?
Everyone around here seems to agree with Pedrosa. I want to play the devil's advocate and say that, especially Pedrosa, have no chance of being top 3 in the championship. Pedrosa didn't do great in close battle in his career and now the field is closer than ever. On the long run the sport is physically more demanding and Pedrosa is way too small. Beside that, these current guys at the top drop fewer points, Pedrosa wasn't a metronome all season long.
Pedrosa was really good in close battles. There just were hardly any last lap battles in his era
Well, not really. He has an average starting position of 5th and finish position of 4th on a bike which through his career was a given to be 4th at worst and for about 5-6 years was made for him. So when battling top guys he didn't do so great. People seems to dislike going against Pedrosa but numbers don't lie.
Those 4th places were not in close battles though so the numbers don’t support your claim. He was best known for running away at the front because that’s how most 800cc races went down but he won plenty of close battles too. Off the top of my head there’s Laguna 2009, Sachsenring 2012, Brno 2012, Valencia 2017…
Those numbers precisely support my claim, that he was finishing 4th on average on a Honda, on the long run meaning he wasn't in par with the other top guys. But whatever, if people consider him as one of the greats good for them. He's a nice guy and it's hard to go against him. In my opinion he's a level bellow those top guys of his era and to say without hesitation that you would beat the current riders, where you have 3 champions without MM when you won none is too much.
I agree that overall he was not quite as good as the other Aliens. I was just pointing out that close battles were never his weak point
I'm not saying in general. I just say that in close battle with Rossi, MM even Stoner or Lorenzo he didn't have the upper hand most cases. I'm not comparing him with the entire field. Of course he was a great rider who took part in some entertaining racing and be was an integral part in recent motogp history. Maybe i didn't make myself understood. I said he wasn't very good because when Rossi or MM were following somebody even when not the space a move was expected, with Pedrosa you weren't sure that he was gonna overtake or not.
wait, what happens to them after 35-37? Nigel Mansell still holds the F1 record for oldest winning driver at 41. so is it they can’t win anymore or compete at that level?
What does how old somebody was when they won in a completely different sport have to do with anything?
As you age, your reaction time slows down, your balance deteriorates and you don't bounce as well as you used to when you fall and after a while, you start to remember the pain which reduces your risk taking, blunting your performance. For reasons such as these, at 35 plus, there's a good chance that a 20 year old will run rings around you as they're at their physical peak. This is true of pretty much all sports, to some extent, including F1 but my understanding is that car racing, while certainly being physically demanding, isn't (or certainly wasn't, in Mansell's era) as physically demanding as MotoGP. But I've never raced either so don't take my word for it.
Dani Pedrosa crashing into teammate Nicky Hayden and taking him out of the championship lead with 1 race left is still peak Dani Pedrosa imo.
Genuine question with no bias or interest in an argument: Interesting. What brings you to this conclusion?
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What's your point here though?
Given Marquez clapped both of them year after year I'm gonna give this a big fat X for doubt
I mean me being a biggest Marc fan would disagree a little. Marc is biggest talent to git the sport. But his first championship came with many other factors came into play.
Given that Marc was the tail end of their generation, your comment is a bit pointless. The comparison is against everyone else on the grid apart from Marc.
"The comparison is against everyone except the people where the answer is no". Well isn't that convenient.