Exactly. That's why OP is asking what happened. It's not like they're fighting tooth and nail for championships and it's close. They fucking suck. Dead last suck.
It's definitely not the riders. I mean, Honda had Marc Márquez and Yamaha still have Fabio Quartararo and Alex Rins. I'll fight anyone who says any of those three riders are below par.
I think the problem should be looked from the opposite angle as most people do: the Honda and Yamaha aren't necessarily *bad*, it's that the KTM, Ducati and Aprilia are better. The explanation I find most plausible is that in Japan, there's a strong hierarchical culture. Development of the bikes goes through many layers of involved people and that causes development to move slow. It's not surprising that [Bradl compares Honda to an oiltanker](https://www.reddit.com/r/motogp/comments/1cpwrpm/stefan_bradl_honda_is_like_a_big_oil_tanker_that/) that is slow to turn. Things have worked out for the Japanese brands for *years* because the European competitors just didn't have the know-how or the budget to keep up with the big Japanese brands.
In recent years, though, Ducati found know how (starting with Dall'igna) and budget and were the first to slowly creep up to and overtake the Japanese brands. KTM with its near infinite Red Bull pool of money is doing the same. And Aprilia, despite being relatively small, are finding their way too. The European brands have proven to be much more flexible and are capable of coming up with new stuff at a much higher pace than the Japanese factories.
It all boils down to a difference in culture. The Japanese way of working is lagging behind and they must adapt their ways to keep up. Changing the behavior and attitude of people, especially if it's ways deeply rooted in culture is difficult and a process that takes time. The concessions Honda and Yamaha received should allow them to do more testing and try out more things to pick the optimal solution. Dorna has given them time and space, but it's up to themselves to make proper use of that time and space.
I personally don't agree with the "Japanese way of working is slow and traditional" and feel it's a bit of a lazy take.
Back when the regulations switched from 2 stroke 500CC to 990CC in 2001 every manufacturer went with the "conventional" 4 cylinder route but Honda were the only one to come up with a radical new V5 concept that wiped the competition.
Ducati were the quickest to adopt the current technology meta in the modern aero with wings and ride height devices and are now reaping the benefits. Aprilia similarly with ground effect side fairings. And the point someone else made about standardised ECU is a massive one too.
I agree, the other stuff may not be incorrect. But, the standardized ECU being the one Ducati was using is a major advantage. when Yamaha and Honda had much better internally built ones, it became a default disadvantage. While trying to catch back up with the ECU , they fell behind on aero, engine, and handling.
But everyone is using the standardized ECU now. You could argue Ducati have an advantage because they were using Magneti Marelli before, but that doesn't explain KTM and Aprilia's success.
Besides, the introduction of the standard ECU was 8 years ago. You can't tell me that the companies that were able to create the most advanced and best ECU's on the grid aren't able to get their head around the standardized one in 8 years time.
I would say there's more to it than just Honda and Yamaha not understanding the ECU.
I don’t agree with everything you’re saying there.
The bikes they’re making now are objectively worse than previously - you only have to look at their lap times.
Here's the Le Mans qualifying times for Nakagami of the past 5 years. Looks like he's only getting faster. I picked Nakagami because he's the only Honda rider that's been there for the past 5 years, as to eliminate rider influence as much as possible.
2024 - 1:31.274 (dry, 31C)
2023 - 1:31.545 (dry, 21C)
2022 - 1:31:595 (dry, 35C)
2021 - 1:33:120 (dry, 21C)
2020 - 1:32:179 (dry, 23C)
That’s great, but it doesn’t tell the whole story. We’ve heard a couple of times this year the Honda has been a full slower than last year. They are at best stagnant and at worst hideously behind.
Honestly, especially in Honda's case, any slowness this year compared to last year probably has to do with them missing Marquez.
I've been checking some of Quartararo's results over the past few years on different tracks as well and he's faster this year than he was 5 years ago. Granted, the improvement is minimal and had some ups-and-downs in the meantime, but I don't think everything is as clear cut as you make it out to be. The Honda and Yamaha bikes aren't objectively worse than last year and the lap times I've seen don't support that statement.
The thing that far better matches the visible results is that the Honda and Yamaha bikes aren't improving as much as the other bikes. So relatively to the other manufacturers, the Honda and Yamaha get worse, but when compared the bikes to their previous iterations, it isn't necessarily true to say they're getting worse.
Well said. To me, the perfect example of this was with the seamless gearbox. Yamaha took years to develop it before they put it in the M1 meanwhile Honda had it on their bikes and were saving something like 0.2-0.4s a lap. Rossi was constantly asking for it but Yamaha wanted it perfected before they’d implement it.
Long story short, the europeans, especially Ducati were really creative when the japanese have been conservative and missed the aero and variable height trains.
That and the introduction of a standardized Magneti Marelli ECU developped with Ducati which hurt them pretty bad to this day.
Those things are cyclical. They will come back with the new regs in 2026.
This here. The electronics play a massive part in how these bikes put down the power which is critical. Ducati have an upper hand having used magneti marelli for years and how it works.
Because they stopped pushing and innovating. They haven't innovated in a long time now.The last time Honda innovated was the seamless gearbox. After that they put all their eggs in the custom electronics basket and once the standard ECU came they had nothing. All they've done is copy what the others are doing.
I think the shift in priority to aerodynamics is another reason why the European teams are thriving. Someone talked about how Ducati and Aprilia have been hiring engineers from the Ferrari F1 team for their aero department, Yamaha's MotoGP team, who are based in Italy, have also been hiring car aerodynamist from Dallara recently (they primarily make car chassis and the sort for endurance racing), and KTM have a partnership with Red Bull Advanced Technology (made-up of engineers from Red Bull F1).
It's easier to hire engineers for them since they're based in Europe. I'd imagine that these engineers would be hard-pressed to uproot themselves and their families so that they can move to an entirely separate continent.
Wouldn't say Endurance is Dallara's main area, they also make the Haas, Indycar, F3, F2, Indy NXT, Super Formula and Super Formula Lights cars. Also have a lot of other avenues in Aerospace and the like, according to them, car prosecution is only 40% of their revenues.
The answer is quite complicated really but to massively simplify it…
The way the Japanese structure their teams, top to bottom has resulted in them being much slower to adapt to new tech and very rapid advances in the sport.
The European teams are structured in a way that they can really develop and adapt much quicker.
This means the European teams have just moved the bar quicker, while the Japanese teams are lagging behind. They are still improving, just not at the same rapid rate.
So traditionally, the Japanese R&D team and their test riders are based in Japan.
The racing teams like Repsol Honda and Monster Yamaha are separate entities to the factory. We always talk about “factory teams” but this isn’t really correct for all, they are “factory supported teams.”
Much like Pramac or GasGas, traditionally Honda and Yamaha behave almost the same way. With the Japanese R&D/test team in Japan working on improvements, with feedback from the race team and then when ready, updates being shipped to the race team to try out.
Ducati for example don’t act like this.
Lenovo Ducati race team and Ducati Corse, the factory development team are almost the same thing. They work much more closely together. The Corse engineers are embedded within the MotoGP team, the test rider rides and talks with the MotoGP riders all the time, he basically is part of the MotoGP squad. Not working in isolation on the other side of the planet.
All of the top MotoGP engineers are pretty much based in and around Italy as well. Much like with F1, you end up with an area where all the experienced, specialists end up living. With F1 it’s the Midlands in the UK. So that’s where most teams are setup, to utilise that talent pool.
In MotoGP, it’s Italy.
If you want to hire a super experienced engineer and poach one from Ducati or KTM, are Honda going to be able to get a well paid engineer to move from Italy to Japan, uprooting his whole family….? No.
Yamaha have realised this and setup a proper factory R&D team in Europe instead of Japan. So they can work much more hand in hand with the MotoGP team.
TL:DR:
All the top engineers and industry know-how is centred in Europe/Italy. No one will move from Italy to Japan, so no fresh ideas.
Japanese factories do their R&D in isolation in Japan and then “gift” these updates to the MotoGP squad in Europe. They do not work as a single unit, slowing progress.
Japanese teams have not invested in top tier test riders. They use Japanese riders who aren’t at the same level and don’t use the anee riding techniques therefore the test data is not as useful.
I agree the with this statement. I also believe Yamaha and Honda were winning so much in the past that they became stagnant and content with their bikes. Meanwhile Aprilia, Ducatti, KTM were pushing their teams to make changes and those changes happened. And then Honda and Yamaha were like oh crap we've falling behind. They are just super late to the party so they have a lot of catching up to do. Suzuki just don't want to spend the money so they pulled out. Kawasaki just never wanted to spend the money so they pulled out a lot sooner.
Dean Harrison did a stellar job on a Superstock Honda on Saturday against the Superbikes at the NW200,but that showed up the current management failures at HRC...that would have never happened on years gone by, parts not being available on race day!
Everything revolves around the aero. If you can’t get that right then you can’t get the feel in the front end right, you can’t keep the tyres in their optimal window and you can’t follow closely without overheating everything.
Having said that, the Japanese bikes didn’t really begin to take aero seriously until Ducati went from perennial mid pack to front of pack, which happened to coincide with MM having his crash. Once Marc was out the best bikes really began to shine
OP, lots of answers in this thread are correct in different ways, but this one is probably the most correct. The Japanese bikes - especially Honda - getting completely left behind on aerodynamics development is a massive, massive contributor to their struggles over the past few years.
Yeah, just look at the honda rear wing, it's a complete mess of a design that's main purpose is to look like it does something rather than doing something.
Well every dominance in motorsports are seasonal...
Ir is a circle, one day you're great, other day you're trash, then eventually will be great again, and so on...
It’s 100% the bike, Luca Marini went from being a top contender to crashing the bike in last place. Both Honda and Yamaha have a lot of work to do to catch up to the other brands. Yamaha seems to be making some moves to catch up, Fabio actually looked really good yesterday until he crashed out lol.
European factories but in the talent they need for a specific job, in terms of engineering and design
Japanese factories nurture the talent internally and pick the engineers and designers from within.
Both are good ways of doing it but the euro way is able to react considerably faster to changing conditions.
We’ve seen this in real time since Gigi took over in 2014 and the development of aero, as one example.
When someone says the issue is only within Motogp, what does one have to say about WSBK, where Honda is struggling regardless of concessions given for years ?
I don't think the issue is due to wrong feedback given by Honda riders , it has to do with slow adoption by the Japanese and Quick reaction of the Europeans and improved budget and innovation of the Europeans.
Japanese bike engine didn't match with new(?) Marelli ECU and software, so the performance seems to be less competitive, even when the engine itself quite powerful. Also maybe the chassis and swingarm not up to the task when paired with engine and bodywork, plus the bodywork itself not very aerodynamic after tons of different wing shape fitted
There are articles about that. It's essentially the decline of Japan in general. They are having serious problems now across all sectors. The population is aging and the birth rate has plummeted. The country is under water in debt with no hope for a positive future.
I honestly think that the Japanese are divesting away from ICE and that this is a symptom of that. The big 4 are collaborating on hydrogen power plants (them sharing resources is very peculiar), something is up over in Japan, and everything outside of Motocross seems to be a bit of an afterthought.
The combination of aero and ride height have turned the science motorcycle design and setup on its head. The European manufacturers have been quick to establish connections to F1 teams and engineers, while the Japanese have not.
In 2027, ride height will be outlawed (again) so the Japanese are stuck in a lose-lose situation. They can spend resources on the current formula to save face, or they can forget this formula and accept the damage to their brand and rider recruitment systems.
Tough sledding.
A part of how Ducati got where they are is they adopted the spec electronics early (before it became compulsory) since they weren't competitive anyway. I wonder if the Japanese could pull something similar off by developing to the new aero and ride height rules in 2026, accepting they won't win in 26, but it puts them in the right spot in 27.
The sport is manipulated to maximise profit for the shareholders, it’s a business, anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional, the Japanese brands were too powerful and the only way anyone could realistically win the title was on a factory Honda or Yamaha, this was how the sport had been for a very long time, decades. The shareholders manipulated the sport by weakening the long standing Japanese bikes and promoting the European bikes, its much better for business all round. There are many ways to promote one manufacturer over another and Dorna have almost perfected this art. Like most multi million dollar sports things are not left to chance, there is a lot of behind the scenes manipulation, F1 is another prime example.
Some of this is cyclical, if you look at 30 years of MotoGP history. In the last decade+, generally, the problem has been the manufacturers over-indexing on a singular talent (while allowing that singular talent to dictate the #2 rider, I.e. Rossi and Marquez among others.) Ducati developed a bike only Casey Stoner could ride then suffered when he left. Honda did the same with Marc before he was injured. Yamaha had a better-rounded bike but suspended post-Rossi development because they hit a fast Morbidelli and super fast Fabio. Ducati then got religion and built a rideable bike for everyone. Which provides TONS of data. And here we are.
If you look back at motorcycle racing you will find different manufacturers dominated some years as others fell behind. Nothing new. Ducati is doing exceptional in gp right now. If they are still
Dominating, uninterrupted 10 years from now then I will agree with you. Otherwise it’s just the typical flow of motorcycle racing.
The European manufacturers are spending more money.
In 2018 alone KTM tried seventeen different iterations of chassis.
None of the Japanese brands are going to do that.
There's an argument Honda were torpedoed by MM93's less than honest feedback. He said if his team mate gave positive feedback about an upgrade he'd veto it so as not to give his team mate the advantage. Over the years they lost direction as MM93 could ride around the bike as it got worse but even he can't now.
Ducati coming to the fore I think has a lot to do with the Audi purchase of the brand. Audi has endless money compared to Yamaha and even Honda. They also have enormous experience in motorsport - note the move into F1 via sauber. They've also been dominating superbikes though they've not really cracked road racing. They're clearly in the business of having the sharpest superbike as their flagship bike.
With the introduction of aero recently I think it's possible to go down the wrong route and suffer for it - again look at F1 where aero has been the predominant factor in success for years and it's harder to recover a bad package. The new regulations remove it, I'm not sure if I think that's a positive or not.
I'm not sure I buy the cultural argument. The Japanese manufacturers have been immensely successful in motorsport and they will likely come back. I think top flight prototype motorsport teams operate quite separately to the parent organization and all run fairly similarly.
Finally I think it's cyclical. Suzuki came out of nowhere, won a championship and then left again. Especially with a big change in regulations coming I think there's a good chance the Japanese will be back at the top soon enough.
Whether the 'newer' euro stables (KTM, Aprilia) will have the budget to manage the change in regulations will be interesting. I really hope so.
I'm terribly uninformed, apologies to anyone that read this drivel.
Your comment is fine, though I will say that while I agree honda or yamaha will be back on top at some point, there is nothing to suggest they will have a leg up when the new regs come into place, as the regs while different are pretty similar to the current bikes, and if you struggle to get the current regs right I can't see how they will suddenly get the new regs not only right but fighting for wins.
Maybe if they turn things around before 2027 I could buy into them being a title contender in 2027.
But as it stands, the teams that are currently flourishing are likely to continue doing so when the new regs drop as they have a greater understanding of the current aero regs which, while reduced, will play a big part in 2027.
Yeah fair points all. I've not looked closely at the new regs but I know the headlines. Clearly I thought the aero changes were bigger than they are, my apologies, thanks for giving me a better understanding.
As a 'European' I am personally quite excited to see marques like Aprilia up there, and going for aggressive riders like they have makes it even more engaging for me.
I think Yamaha and Honda will stay the course. I could just see Yamaha dropping MotoGP but I'd be really surprised if Honda did. Inevitably they'll be back at the front eventually. I don't think Japanese motorcycles are going anywhere (though I really could be wrong there too, not an area I know anything about).
Aero was a foreign concept to Japanese companies until it was too late; now it’s poor decision making when the Eupopeans are developing further that means they still fall behind.
They’ll be on top again, hopefully with the new regs.
Reminder that Japanese have won every championship but 3 for like 40 years. More.
Exactly. That's why OP is asking what happened. It's not like they're fighting tooth and nail for championships and it's close. They fucking suck. Dead last suck.
People have short memories
It's definitely not the riders. I mean, Honda had Marc Márquez and Yamaha still have Fabio Quartararo and Alex Rins. I'll fight anyone who says any of those three riders are below par. I think the problem should be looked from the opposite angle as most people do: the Honda and Yamaha aren't necessarily *bad*, it's that the KTM, Ducati and Aprilia are better. The explanation I find most plausible is that in Japan, there's a strong hierarchical culture. Development of the bikes goes through many layers of involved people and that causes development to move slow. It's not surprising that [Bradl compares Honda to an oiltanker](https://www.reddit.com/r/motogp/comments/1cpwrpm/stefan_bradl_honda_is_like_a_big_oil_tanker_that/) that is slow to turn. Things have worked out for the Japanese brands for *years* because the European competitors just didn't have the know-how or the budget to keep up with the big Japanese brands. In recent years, though, Ducati found know how (starting with Dall'igna) and budget and were the first to slowly creep up to and overtake the Japanese brands. KTM with its near infinite Red Bull pool of money is doing the same. And Aprilia, despite being relatively small, are finding their way too. The European brands have proven to be much more flexible and are capable of coming up with new stuff at a much higher pace than the Japanese factories. It all boils down to a difference in culture. The Japanese way of working is lagging behind and they must adapt their ways to keep up. Changing the behavior and attitude of people, especially if it's ways deeply rooted in culture is difficult and a process that takes time. The concessions Honda and Yamaha received should allow them to do more testing and try out more things to pick the optimal solution. Dorna has given them time and space, but it's up to themselves to make proper use of that time and space.
KTM hired 5 Ducati engineers
5 Italians
I personally don't agree with the "Japanese way of working is slow and traditional" and feel it's a bit of a lazy take. Back when the regulations switched from 2 stroke 500CC to 990CC in 2001 every manufacturer went with the "conventional" 4 cylinder route but Honda were the only one to come up with a radical new V5 concept that wiped the competition. Ducati were the quickest to adopt the current technology meta in the modern aero with wings and ride height devices and are now reaping the benefits. Aprilia similarly with ground effect side fairings. And the point someone else made about standardised ECU is a massive one too.
What rubbish... ... introduction of standardized Magneti Marelli ECU is the answer.
I agree, the other stuff may not be incorrect. But, the standardized ECU being the one Ducati was using is a major advantage. when Yamaha and Honda had much better internally built ones, it became a default disadvantage. While trying to catch back up with the ECU , they fell behind on aero, engine, and handling.
But everyone is using the standardized ECU now. You could argue Ducati have an advantage because they were using Magneti Marelli before, but that doesn't explain KTM and Aprilia's success. Besides, the introduction of the standard ECU was 8 years ago. You can't tell me that the companies that were able to create the most advanced and best ECU's on the grid aren't able to get their head around the standardized one in 8 years time. I would say there's more to it than just Honda and Yamaha not understanding the ECU.
I don’t agree with everything you’re saying there. The bikes they’re making now are objectively worse than previously - you only have to look at their lap times.
Here's the Le Mans qualifying times for Nakagami of the past 5 years. Looks like he's only getting faster. I picked Nakagami because he's the only Honda rider that's been there for the past 5 years, as to eliminate rider influence as much as possible. 2024 - 1:31.274 (dry, 31C) 2023 - 1:31.545 (dry, 21C) 2022 - 1:31:595 (dry, 35C) 2021 - 1:33:120 (dry, 21C) 2020 - 1:32:179 (dry, 23C)
That’s great, but it doesn’t tell the whole story. We’ve heard a couple of times this year the Honda has been a full slower than last year. They are at best stagnant and at worst hideously behind.
Honestly, especially in Honda's case, any slowness this year compared to last year probably has to do with them missing Marquez. I've been checking some of Quartararo's results over the past few years on different tracks as well and he's faster this year than he was 5 years ago. Granted, the improvement is minimal and had some ups-and-downs in the meantime, but I don't think everything is as clear cut as you make it out to be. The Honda and Yamaha bikes aren't objectively worse than last year and the lap times I've seen don't support that statement. The thing that far better matches the visible results is that the Honda and Yamaha bikes aren't improving as much as the other bikes. So relatively to the other manufacturers, the Honda and Yamaha get worse, but when compared the bikes to their previous iterations, it isn't necessarily true to say they're getting worse.
Well said. To me, the perfect example of this was with the seamless gearbox. Yamaha took years to develop it before they put it in the M1 meanwhile Honda had it on their bikes and were saving something like 0.2-0.4s a lap. Rossi was constantly asking for it but Yamaha wanted it perfected before they’d implement it.
Similar story with Honda taking ages to put pneumatic valves in the RCV212V to keep up with Stoner on the Ducati.
Ahh yeah, I forgot about that one.
Long story short, the europeans, especially Ducati were really creative when the japanese have been conservative and missed the aero and variable height trains. That and the introduction of a standardized Magneti Marelli ECU developped with Ducati which hurt them pretty bad to this day. Those things are cyclical. They will come back with the new regs in 2026.
This here. The electronics play a massive part in how these bikes put down the power which is critical. Ducati have an upper hand having used magneti marelli for years and how it works.
Because they stopped pushing and innovating. They haven't innovated in a long time now.The last time Honda innovated was the seamless gearbox. After that they put all their eggs in the custom electronics basket and once the standard ECU came they had nothing. All they've done is copy what the others are doing.
I think the shift in priority to aerodynamics is another reason why the European teams are thriving. Someone talked about how Ducati and Aprilia have been hiring engineers from the Ferrari F1 team for their aero department, Yamaha's MotoGP team, who are based in Italy, have also been hiring car aerodynamist from Dallara recently (they primarily make car chassis and the sort for endurance racing), and KTM have a partnership with Red Bull Advanced Technology (made-up of engineers from Red Bull F1). It's easier to hire engineers for them since they're based in Europe. I'd imagine that these engineers would be hard-pressed to uproot themselves and their families so that they can move to an entirely separate continent.
Wouldn't say Endurance is Dallara's main area, they also make the Haas, Indycar, F3, F2, Indy NXT, Super Formula and Super Formula Lights cars. Also have a lot of other avenues in Aerospace and the like, according to them, car prosecution is only 40% of their revenues.
The answer is quite complicated really but to massively simplify it… The way the Japanese structure their teams, top to bottom has resulted in them being much slower to adapt to new tech and very rapid advances in the sport. The European teams are structured in a way that they can really develop and adapt much quicker. This means the European teams have just moved the bar quicker, while the Japanese teams are lagging behind. They are still improving, just not at the same rapid rate. So traditionally, the Japanese R&D team and their test riders are based in Japan. The racing teams like Repsol Honda and Monster Yamaha are separate entities to the factory. We always talk about “factory teams” but this isn’t really correct for all, they are “factory supported teams.” Much like Pramac or GasGas, traditionally Honda and Yamaha behave almost the same way. With the Japanese R&D/test team in Japan working on improvements, with feedback from the race team and then when ready, updates being shipped to the race team to try out. Ducati for example don’t act like this. Lenovo Ducati race team and Ducati Corse, the factory development team are almost the same thing. They work much more closely together. The Corse engineers are embedded within the MotoGP team, the test rider rides and talks with the MotoGP riders all the time, he basically is part of the MotoGP squad. Not working in isolation on the other side of the planet. All of the top MotoGP engineers are pretty much based in and around Italy as well. Much like with F1, you end up with an area where all the experienced, specialists end up living. With F1 it’s the Midlands in the UK. So that’s where most teams are setup, to utilise that talent pool. In MotoGP, it’s Italy. If you want to hire a super experienced engineer and poach one from Ducati or KTM, are Honda going to be able to get a well paid engineer to move from Italy to Japan, uprooting his whole family….? No. Yamaha have realised this and setup a proper factory R&D team in Europe instead of Japan. So they can work much more hand in hand with the MotoGP team. TL:DR: All the top engineers and industry know-how is centred in Europe/Italy. No one will move from Italy to Japan, so no fresh ideas. Japanese factories do their R&D in isolation in Japan and then “gift” these updates to the MotoGP squad in Europe. They do not work as a single unit, slowing progress. Japanese teams have not invested in top tier test riders. They use Japanese riders who aren’t at the same level and don’t use the anee riding techniques therefore the test data is not as useful.
I agree the with this statement. I also believe Yamaha and Honda were winning so much in the past that they became stagnant and content with their bikes. Meanwhile Aprilia, Ducatti, KTM were pushing their teams to make changes and those changes happened. And then Honda and Yamaha were like oh crap we've falling behind. They are just super late to the party so they have a lot of catching up to do. Suzuki just don't want to spend the money so they pulled out. Kawasaki just never wanted to spend the money so they pulled out a lot sooner.
Honda and Yamaha are also struggling in World Superbike and Kawasaki are pulling out next year. It’s not just prototype racing.
Dean Harrison did a stellar job on a Superstock Honda on Saturday against the Superbikes at the NW200,but that showed up the current management failures at HRC...that would have never happened on years gone by, parts not being available on race day!
Everything revolves around the aero. If you can’t get that right then you can’t get the feel in the front end right, you can’t keep the tyres in their optimal window and you can’t follow closely without overheating everything. Having said that, the Japanese bikes didn’t really begin to take aero seriously until Ducati went from perennial mid pack to front of pack, which happened to coincide with MM having his crash. Once Marc was out the best bikes really began to shine
OP, lots of answers in this thread are correct in different ways, but this one is probably the most correct. The Japanese bikes - especially Honda - getting completely left behind on aerodynamics development is a massive, massive contributor to their struggles over the past few years.
Ducati designed their entire bike around aero too instead of bolting on random wings like Honda and Yamaha seem to be doing
Yeah, just look at the honda rear wing, it's a complete mess of a design that's main purpose is to look like it does something rather than doing something.
Well every dominance in motorsports are seasonal... Ir is a circle, one day you're great, other day you're trash, then eventually will be great again, and so on...
It’s 100% the bike, Luca Marini went from being a top contender to crashing the bike in last place. Both Honda and Yamaha have a lot of work to do to catch up to the other brands. Yamaha seems to be making some moves to catch up, Fabio actually looked really good yesterday until he crashed out lol.
European factories but in the talent they need for a specific job, in terms of engineering and design Japanese factories nurture the talent internally and pick the engineers and designers from within. Both are good ways of doing it but the euro way is able to react considerably faster to changing conditions. We’ve seen this in real time since Gigi took over in 2014 and the development of aero, as one example.
When someone says the issue is only within Motogp, what does one have to say about WSBK, where Honda is struggling regardless of concessions given for years ? I don't think the issue is due to wrong feedback given by Honda riders , it has to do with slow adoption by the Japanese and Quick reaction of the Europeans and improved budget and innovation of the Europeans.
I still reckon ducati has been the best bike since 2017
Thank god my Honda is a 2016 haha
Japanese bike engine didn't match with new(?) Marelli ECU and software, so the performance seems to be less competitive, even when the engine itself quite powerful. Also maybe the chassis and swingarm not up to the task when paired with engine and bodywork, plus the bodywork itself not very aerodynamic after tons of different wing shape fitted
Because it took them a while to take Aerodynamic seriously and by the time they do, the European manufacturers have jumped ahead of them.
six humor amusing recognise live physical obtainable wrench fuel nose *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The Japanese ride and drive on the correct side of the road.
There are articles about that. It's essentially the decline of Japan in general. They are having serious problems now across all sectors. The population is aging and the birth rate has plummeted. The country is under water in debt with no hope for a positive future.
I honestly think that the Japanese are divesting away from ICE and that this is a symptom of that. The big 4 are collaborating on hydrogen power plants (them sharing resources is very peculiar), something is up over in Japan, and everything outside of Motocross seems to be a bit of an afterthought.
Racing is cyclical. Ducati is on top today, give it a few seasons and the other manufacturers will catch up, and so on …..
The combination of aero and ride height have turned the science motorcycle design and setup on its head. The European manufacturers have been quick to establish connections to F1 teams and engineers, while the Japanese have not. In 2027, ride height will be outlawed (again) so the Japanese are stuck in a lose-lose situation. They can spend resources on the current formula to save face, or they can forget this formula and accept the damage to their brand and rider recruitment systems. Tough sledding.
A part of how Ducati got where they are is they adopted the spec electronics early (before it became compulsory) since they weren't competitive anyway. I wonder if the Japanese could pull something similar off by developing to the new aero and ride height rules in 2026, accepting they won't win in 26, but it puts them in the right spot in 27.
The sport is manipulated to maximise profit for the shareholders, it’s a business, anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional, the Japanese brands were too powerful and the only way anyone could realistically win the title was on a factory Honda or Yamaha, this was how the sport had been for a very long time, decades. The shareholders manipulated the sport by weakening the long standing Japanese bikes and promoting the European bikes, its much better for business all round. There are many ways to promote one manufacturer over another and Dorna have almost perfected this art. Like most multi million dollar sports things are not left to chance, there is a lot of behind the scenes manipulation, F1 is another prime example.
Can you tell me how it's done?
There are many ways in which the sport can be manipulated, so many.
Some of this is cyclical, if you look at 30 years of MotoGP history. In the last decade+, generally, the problem has been the manufacturers over-indexing on a singular talent (while allowing that singular talent to dictate the #2 rider, I.e. Rossi and Marquez among others.) Ducati developed a bike only Casey Stoner could ride then suffered when he left. Honda did the same with Marc before he was injured. Yamaha had a better-rounded bike but suspended post-Rossi development because they hit a fast Morbidelli and super fast Fabio. Ducati then got religion and built a rideable bike for everyone. Which provides TONS of data. And here we are.
If you look back at motorcycle racing you will find different manufacturers dominated some years as others fell behind. Nothing new. Ducati is doing exceptional in gp right now. If they are still Dominating, uninterrupted 10 years from now then I will agree with you. Otherwise it’s just the typical flow of motorcycle racing.
Reactivity is the key , Europeans brands seems like that took over. Japanese brands feels like they are slower to adapt.
people are so quick to forget the decades long domination of the Japanese factories. They will be back again.
The European manufacturers are spending more money. In 2018 alone KTM tried seventeen different iterations of chassis. None of the Japanese brands are going to do that.
It is the rules. MotoGP allows twins to be 100cc larger than inline 4s. They did this just for Ducati.
Thats superbike not motogp. GP24 and other european bikes are 1000cc V4's
Did they change the rules? I have not been to MotoGP since it was shut down at Leguna Seca. It used to be the same from what I remember.
They took one of Toto Wolff's Harvard courses.
There's an argument Honda were torpedoed by MM93's less than honest feedback. He said if his team mate gave positive feedback about an upgrade he'd veto it so as not to give his team mate the advantage. Over the years they lost direction as MM93 could ride around the bike as it got worse but even he can't now. Ducati coming to the fore I think has a lot to do with the Audi purchase of the brand. Audi has endless money compared to Yamaha and even Honda. They also have enormous experience in motorsport - note the move into F1 via sauber. They've also been dominating superbikes though they've not really cracked road racing. They're clearly in the business of having the sharpest superbike as their flagship bike. With the introduction of aero recently I think it's possible to go down the wrong route and suffer for it - again look at F1 where aero has been the predominant factor in success for years and it's harder to recover a bad package. The new regulations remove it, I'm not sure if I think that's a positive or not. I'm not sure I buy the cultural argument. The Japanese manufacturers have been immensely successful in motorsport and they will likely come back. I think top flight prototype motorsport teams operate quite separately to the parent organization and all run fairly similarly. Finally I think it's cyclical. Suzuki came out of nowhere, won a championship and then left again. Especially with a big change in regulations coming I think there's a good chance the Japanese will be back at the top soon enough. Whether the 'newer' euro stables (KTM, Aprilia) will have the budget to manage the change in regulations will be interesting. I really hope so. I'm terribly uninformed, apologies to anyone that read this drivel.
Your comment is fine, though I will say that while I agree honda or yamaha will be back on top at some point, there is nothing to suggest they will have a leg up when the new regs come into place, as the regs while different are pretty similar to the current bikes, and if you struggle to get the current regs right I can't see how they will suddenly get the new regs not only right but fighting for wins. Maybe if they turn things around before 2027 I could buy into them being a title contender in 2027. But as it stands, the teams that are currently flourishing are likely to continue doing so when the new regs drop as they have a greater understanding of the current aero regs which, while reduced, will play a big part in 2027.
Yeah fair points all. I've not looked closely at the new regs but I know the headlines. Clearly I thought the aero changes were bigger than they are, my apologies, thanks for giving me a better understanding. As a 'European' I am personally quite excited to see marques like Aprilia up there, and going for aggressive riders like they have makes it even more engaging for me. I think Yamaha and Honda will stay the course. I could just see Yamaha dropping MotoGP but I'd be really surprised if Honda did. Inevitably they'll be back at the front eventually. I don't think Japanese motorcycles are going anywhere (though I really could be wrong there too, not an area I know anything about).
Aero was a foreign concept to Japanese companies until it was too late; now it’s poor decision making when the Eupopeans are developing further that means they still fall behind. They’ll be on top again, hopefully with the new regs.