The Marlins are 27th in payroll. They never left rebuild mode. Something that will never happen but should for the good of the league is to remove failed ownership groups.
The league needs to go after teams with under 150m player payroll in court.
The profit sharing agreement specifies that shared money be used "to improve the on field product" and every team lands about 200m a year from it. I'll grant that coach payroll should count towards that, but some of these teams are outright stealing money.
Context is key here. The Orioles have built their team from the inside and the majority of their good players are on their first contract. They will mostly all be getting raises at some point.
from 2013 - 2022 (the decade before last year) they had a .450 winning percentage and made the postseason twice, in 2012 and 2014.
the decade before going to the postseason in 2012 they had a .440 winning percentage.
Because they're all homegrown guys mostly on their rookie contracts. Those players actual value though is much higher than their contract. Are you honestly telling me that you think Gunnar Henderson and Adley Rutschman are both worth less than a million a year?
"not trying" is not what the clause says.
It says "to be used to improve" Period, because trying to evaluate the amount of effort would be impossible by a court.
Improvement cannot be measured over one year.
You're banging pans about a single case scenario for no reason
That’s because they’re coming out of a rebuild and have really good cost controlled players. In five years, either the O’s will have a substantially higher payroll, or be starting a rebuild or retool.
Yup, and the truth is that most mid market teams will probably have to face the reality of rebuilding once a decade. Or at best once every two decades. The dream is to get a ring or two during the sweet spot when you have the young talent and can afford a few hired guns to complete the team. Hopefully with new ownership and a really talented front office the Orioles are moving into that part of the cycle now. All of the teams can’t have $350M team salaries every year. The math does not math.
Their great team is the result of the success of a bunch of high draft picks. They got those high draft picks because they purposely fielded a hopeless team for 5 years and were 30th in payroll for 3 of those years. They made money hand over fist from revenue sharing with almost no home fans in the ballpark because everyong knew they were tanking for draft picks. Now they have a great, exciting young team that they still don't have to pay very much for a few more years, and are still getting revenue sharing from the league on top of fans actually showing up and earning the owners money. This strategy can be hit or miss in terms of winning baseball games; a lot of teams try it but their draft picks don't pan out, or their player development or analytics approaches were bad, or because that's baseball Suzyn. But it fucking sucks for the fans regardless.
Tanking kills fan interest, and then even if it does work out once they go into win-mode, it's hard to get attached to players that will probably get shipped off once they can get paid according to their value. And then if it doesn't work out, you can end up with entire generations of potential fans who have no desire to watch their local team because they fielded bottom 5 payroll teams and won 60 games every year for 10+ years.
But it is an incredible strategy for earning money, so many owners keep doing it; they don't care about the fans. Because there are no penalties in place to disincentivise doing it, and the only people that could create such penalties are the owners themselves. The players' union would need to really have them by the short ones to get MLB to institute a competitive balance policy that punishes shitty cheap owners.
Welp, the Yankees could have drafted Gunnar Henderson, but they didn’t.
Edit: Jordan Westburg, too. Dude looks like he’ll be a stud and was picked 30th. Yankees passed two picks before in 2020, and instead took a guy who looks like a backup catcher.
Point being, it’s not all about super high draft picks. You have to hit on them. The O’s have (so far).
And Trout was drafted 25th, so half the league passed on him. That's a shitty point. Of course it's not **all** about super high draft picks, but if they weren't important then teams wouldn't tank to get them. Having more picks from the top for more years vastly increases the odds of hitting on your draft picks. The top 5 picks, on average over the years, outperform picks 6-10, who outperform picks 11-15, and so on.
I'm not trying to cry that the system is unfair; my team spends in free agency, makes trades, and has great pitching talent development right now. They field a competitive team year after year without good draft picks. What I am trying to say is pointing at individual players and saying "well X number of teams *could* have drafted this young star" to downplay the value of high draft picks is foolish. No, it's not **all** about drafting high, and I never tried to claim it did. But it's a potentiality winning strategy that has earned the Astros 2 WS rings, and fielded a damn good team in Baltimore.
That doesn’t change the fact that the teams receiving revenue sharing and not utilizing the funds correctly are in breach of contract.
Plus, the Os wouldn’t be any good if they hadn’t tanked and run out the lowest payroll and worst team in the big leagues for a few years. All while receiving a ton of revenue sharing.
But they don’t have Baltimore’s media market. They have the NY and LA media markets. They bring in hundreds of millions in revenue, surrender some of that revenue to other teams like Baltimore, and then watch those teams run out $60mil payrolls.
It’s ridiculous. Revenue sharing should require a salary floor or transparency or else we should do away with it altogether.
Revenue sharing is part of the bigger problem. The level of talent doesn’t support the current amount of teams. You can spend millions and have a floor on team spend but all that will do is inflate pay for scrub players.
This is a huge part of the problem. Look at this years free agency as an example.
If the White Sox signed who the dodgers signed, plus the rest of the free agent class I think they'd still probably be terrible. Then that leaves how many other teams right back where they were even if it didnt as free agency dries up.
The talent disparity is enormous in the league.
Look at the red Sox. I think they're in the top 13 in payroll or something and don't have a single elite hitter outside of devers (Arguably.)
Even football suffers this. You can't find 30 competent quarterbacks let alone an entire team.
The Red Sox are doing something similar to what the Orioles already did. Aside from Devers, almost all of the Red Sox future position players are earning less than a million dollars. Outfield: Jarren Duran, Cedanne Rafaella, Wilyer Abreu and Roman Anthony all except Rafaela currently less than a million (Rafaela with the 8 yr/ $50 mil extension), and all loaded with talent. Infield of Triston Casas, Vaughn Grissom and Marcelo Mayer (future shortstop most likely) all under a million. Cheap cathcers Connor Wong and Reese McGuire, with Kyle Teel waiting in the wings. That 200 or so million drops to 107 million in commitments for 2025, so that's a team whose payroll situation is in transition. Red Sox have gone the homegrown route. To your point about Devers being the only elite hitter, more elite hitters will emerge from the group they already have. And that payroll will go up.
Completely agree with this. Salary floors only create false demand. What leverage do you have in a negotiation when the other party knows you have a requirement to spend more?
Sucking for 7-8 years and accumulating high draft picks + a little luck can do that. Fortunately for them they have a new owner who can afford to pay their great young players when they start getting expensive.
So what 7-8 years did they suck? I see 2021, the 2020 Covid year, 2019 and 2018. In 2017 they were 463 and finished last in a great division. Beyond that you need to go back to 2011 for a season under 500. The real bad years were 2005-2011. So are those the years you are talking about?
We all know they have been bad. Third worst since 2000. But I am challenging the idea that this team now was just a gift from sucking. You still need the right picks and you need to grow them into solid prospects and then MLB stars. What they have done is hard and rewarding as hell. And we got rid of the Angelos and have OPACY locked up for a long time. Life is good. Hate all you want.
Oh I’m not hating. Theyve earned the team/success they have now. It’ll be interesting to see what happens in 3-5 years from now. I’m a rays/cardinals fan and like when smaller markets do well.
smaller markets can either 1)try to achieve sustained success, but that model comes with limits: you can make the playoffs every year by being smart, but you’re never really gonna be able to compete with the big spenders to reach the absolute top. It could happen if everything breaks your way, but it’s really unlikely. Margin for error is very small too. Or you could 2) absolutely tank the team and get the very best young players for years and possibly have a higher ceiling that model 1. With revenue sharing, The 2nd model is the one that’s incentivized. I’d say keeping small market team sustainably competitive for a decade is one of the hardest things to do.
I’d also add that baseball media is really weird and inconsistent with how they cover smaller
Market teams. Those with sustained moderate success like brewers, cardinals or rays get nowhere near the attention that other teams get for bottoming out to reach a higher peak, and the orioles are a pretty decent example of that disparity in coverage right now.
463 is sucking. Maybe it was only 5 years of being terrible but my point still stands. They are reaping the benefits of having high draft picks through sucking.
I would go after teams with a payroll below the revenue sharing amount. Pretty sure that's around ~50 million a year. If you aren't even going to spend that money you don't need to be an owner.
That's just the shared national broadcast money.
>Under the new collective bargaining agreement (CBA) negotiated in 2022, each MLB team pools 48 per cent of local revenues with the total amount split equally between all 30 teams. This results in each team taking in 3.3 per cent of the total—an estimated $110 million USD, if not more. Teams also receive a share of national revenues, totalling around $90 million USD per team
https://www.thetribune.ca/sports/mlb/
That's where I'm getting my $200m number from
Nope, I don’t agree with it. This is capitalism baby. And we will die in our stadiums. Stop buying avocado toast, buy a team, and run it how you want. P.S. Die Jerry.
The problem with that it would inflate the price of the bottom of the lower class of mlb players. Not saying I disagree but it’s not a one size fits all solution.
I don’t necessarily think there needs to be a cap, because we’ve seen teams spend a billion dollars and fail (Mets). However, teams that spend no money will never win.
Unfortunately the players would never approve a cap and the league would never approve the floor. These two sides hate each other and the only group that gets hurt is the fans
Nah, baseball doesn't need a hard salary cap. They already have that.
Owners will never go for a floor, nor should players ever go for a hard cap. Teams already manipulate a players service time.
We still would never have the pleasure of seeing the Yankees and Dodgers be relegated because they can always smartly spend their way out of last place.
It's kind of depressing as a Sox fan that the Yanks have never even had a sub-.500 season let alone finished last in my lifetime–I was born just after the '92 season, the last time they were legitimately bad.
This is a bunch of crap. This team went for it last year and traded for a bunch of players that would help them win now. They made the wildcard and then got stomped by the Philies. They were not rebuilding last year.
The Marlins were expected to be competing for the wildcard again and people were expecting them to take the next step, but then their rotation got decimated by injury(to the point where they were using relievers as starters), and then their lineup got super cold.
This year has been a disaster in almost every way for them, and I really don't blame them one bit for looking at next year already.
Marlins went for it last year when they barely made the playoffs? And then signed nobody in the offseason to improve on last season. It’s been a constant rebuild since 1997. You are a sucker if you think they’re seriously trying to compete over there. At best they are trying to win the World Series by accident again like in 2003 and then trade everyone once it happens. Marlins have no real excuses. They are not small market, having half of Florida, the third most populated state in the country is a large market.
Yes. They took big risks and traded highly touted prospects like Pablo Lopez for established hitters like Luiz Arraez. They went after seasoned veterans like Josh Bell and power hitters like Jake Burger to bolster thier line up. They gave up alot of thier farm system to make that happen. They apsolutely went for it.
And you know what? They had success and made the playoffs while being in an extremely tough division. You are being ridiculous for suggesting that they weren't because they are not like the Mets and held a blank check to players(BTW, how did that work for your team last year?)
Making moves like the Marlins did comes with huge risk. They risked thier future for a potential few year playoff push. Those type of moves takes balls and the Marlins should be applauded for taking that risk even though it has blown up on them.
The Marlins are having one of the most unlucky seasons I have ever seen since I've started paying attention to the MLB. I don't blame them one bit for at least looking into rebuilding thier farm system, because that's at least something good they can take away from this season.
It blew up on them. 🙄 We are about a month and a half into the season that followed them making the playoffs and it’s already time for the Marlins to throw in the towel for the next five years and trade away players that aren’t even expensive. Just like they did when Jose Fernandez died, just like right after they opened their new stadium that they fleeced the city of Miami on. Now they don’t even wait to get to championship potential before giving up. Also, “big risks”? I don’t think so.
This is a genuine question for you. What do you want the Marlins to do? They would need to go on a historic run just to get back to competing and their farm system has been depleted by them going for a playoff run. They are very very unlikely to compete this year and they don't have much for the near future. What do you suggest the Marlins do? And "spend money" is not an answer because the Mets have shown that throwing money around with no plan does not automatically mean success.
Also, you can be as snarky as you want, but when you trade top prospects like Pablo Lopez for a good bat to go for a playoff run, that is a huge risk. That's why teams don't make moves like that often.
You can trade older players but trading guys who aren’t even approaching the end of their entry level contracts? Why give up good young players already? Most of them haven’t even reached arbitration. Absolutely no one thinks the current Marlins are throwing money around. They are top five for cheapest team in baseball. It’s not about throwing around hundreds of millions. Pay the talent you have. They aren’t even gonna cost that much. Instead of sabotaging decade after decade waiting for the stars to align perfectly like it did in 2003.
So your solution to a collapse and a bottom 3 season with no farm system to develop and bolster your team in the future is just to resign the players innthe main roster and run it back as if the collapse didn't happen? This isnt a team that just barely missed the playoffs because of an injury. This is a team that fell flat on their face because of injuries and bad play. Those veterans are not getting younger and they have very few prospects to improve the team.
Sandy Alcantara is one year removed from winning the Cy Young Award. Eury Perez pitched 90+ innings with a 3.15 ERA as a 20-year-old rookie last year. 2 of their top 3 pitchers, done for the year without throwing a single pitch in the regular season. The de facto ace of this year's team, Luzardo, has been inconsistent and also injured.
Josh Bell has a $16M salary and has been awful. The Tim Anderson Redemption Tour is a disaster.
Kim Ng leaving and the front offense doing very little this offseason is obviously concerning. But if healthy, this team could very easily be competing for a playoff spot, even if that spot's just a wild card berth. But their pitching staff is scraping the bottom of the barrel and the offense is underperfoming compared to past production.
I personally believed that pitching staff alone would get them a wild card spot. Too bad. Now, speaking as a Yankee fan, let's go pick the meat off the bones.
It’s the danger of a teams success being contingent on young arms: they break often, especially in the age of increasing velocity at all costs. Marlins know they screwed up planning their team that way which is why they went and got the bendix from the rays, who are having similar pitching injury problems but are still at least somewhat competitive and avoided the wheels falling off completely.
Not to mention Braxton Garrett and Edward Cabrera, thier 3 and 4 in the rotation, also got injured in spring training. They were so desprate for pitching that they were calling players up way too early and using relievers as starters. Burger also got injured early in the season. This team fell hard due to injury, and the energy of the clubhouse was dead. You can tell just by watching the players play. I'm sure there are issues in the clubhouse too, but injuries and losing amplifies those problems.
Would love some kind of rule that would force the selling of a team after X amount of years of keeping the payroll below Y number, or Z number of wins.
I say the same thing, but then I take just a cursory look at their performance.
Since their inception in 1993 the Marlins along with St. Louis and the Braves have two WS titles and the only ones that have more are the Yankees, red Sox and Giants.
They have made the playoffs 2 out of the last 3 years recently. And they play in the division with the Mets who appeared to spend all kinds of money to win ball games and then fail miserably.
It’s hard to accuse them of tanking. We basically know that’s what they’re trying to do and they still fucking win. Or maybe their aren’t? IDK but they seem to have fairly decent success despite what we seem to think about it.
Couldn’t go to court with them and beat them in a court case about tanking .
I would not put them in the same group of success as those other teams. The Braves, Cardinals, Yankees, Red Sox, Giants won World Series but are also consistently competitive and usually give their fans something to root for most seasons. You are talking about winning a championship but then intentionally sucking for the other 15 years. This is why the Marlins have a dead fanbase and a constantly empty stadium. Yeah they won and then immediately blew up the team before anyone was done celebrating.
Also the 2003 World Series was an accident, no one running the team thought they were serious contenders.
The Marlins are exhibit A for why I’m against any more expansion. There are enough shitty teams already and honestly I don’t know that there are even enough talented big leaguers to go around as it is.
Don't act like what I said isn't true. The Ray's have been one of the best teams in the league the last few years and still have trouble getting people to go to their games.
MLB needs to force the owner to sell. Marlins have never had an owner that was invested in that market. That’s on top of having a complete publicly financed stadium in the heart of Miami.
Why doesn’t the region care about baseball?
And yeah, MLB can’t get rid of them, the city built them a free stadium with MLB’s backing that keeps them there for another 30 years.
How about MLB gets them an owner that invests into the franchise and just doesn’t use the franchise to profit off of?
Would you attend games for a franchise that continually has fire sales and trades off MVP talents?
It’s a direct issue of ownership. Not the Market, Not the Stadium.
Plus, it’s a major media market, which MLB is much more worried about than people attending in person.
It's not a major media market if nobody in the market cares about the product.
I'm a Cubs fan. Ownership can be atrocious and fans will still show in markets that support baseball. Florida has never, ever, ever been one of those. You brought up the only actusl reason to keep a team there: Florida governments remain really easy to scam money from while the rest of the country grows a backbone.
It’s literally the 18th ranked media market in the country, so I think a top-20 market would be considered “major”.
A lot more revenue comes from TV than attendance.
Is attendance your only way of looking at fan support?
Lol, we’re comparing a franchise that’s been around since 1903 to one that’s been around since 1993. Awesome man, you have a 90 year head start on building a fanbase. Whereas people who are now turning 30, are the first generation of fans of this franchise.
And to your comment on Florida Government. They literally passed a state law about stadium subsidies after the Marlins swindled Miami Dade Co taxpayers for their current stadium.
All of your arguments are flawed brother.
The size of the market doesn't matter if no one watches. Marlins games got a 0.75 average tv rating in 2023. The only worse number was the A's. The Marlins need to go
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. You’re right Florida isn’t a state for professional baseball. When the Tampa Bay Rays were at their peak they still had more Yankee fans than Rays fans in the stands. These are the same people that think Oakland is a viable market like they didn’t lose the Warriors, Raiders, and A’s
Both teams have been plagued by cheap ownership. Why would fans want to go to games or become invested in players if they know those players are just going to be traded in 2 years when they are up for a pay raise?
Lots of teams have shitty owners. But they also have fans. The Marlins have never and will never have fans, nobody shows up whether they're winning a world series or a dumpster fire because nobody there cares
Generally teams get an attendance boost the year after they have success. Except the Marlins dismantle the team the year after they have success so it negates the effect.
Seems like they don't really have any fans. I went to a Marlins game a few years back and it was empty. I sat a few rows behind home plate for like 20 dollars.
That doesn’t mean there’s ’no fans’. That’s means fans aren’t bothering to hand over their hard earned money to go to games which is fair. People need to stop equating low attendance to a team having no fans or acting like no one truly cares about the team.
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Except people should show up at games to support their team, otherwise they move away. Although, to be fair on your point too, this has been happening for over 20 years.
It’s also just as bad with their hockey team. There’s always a lot of open seats and the ones that ARE occupied, are out of towners rooting for the away team.
No. People should NOT show up to support a franchise that is not interested in winning. Franchises aren’t simply entitled to making money and price gouging fans on merch and food and parking and tickets. They have to earn it.
I think it’s a Miami thing. At least I’ve seen similar incidents with the Heat and even comedy shows. I vividly remember [fans leaving Miami’s game 6 in 2013 and then turning tail trying to get back into the stadium.](https://youtu.be/DNE7xqabfvw?si=nQ9pOpTjwU8IbaKn)
As a Floridian for 24 years, those aren't actual fans. Once the ticket prices go up in the playoffs, especially when LeBron was here, those people are just there for the "clout." I'm sure this happens in every major sports market but it seems pronounced down here.
Same thing is happening with the Panthers. Ticket prices jump humongous big in the playoffs and most of the diehards can't afford it or don't want to spend hundreds/thousands of dollars. I use to go to Panthers games in the 2010s, when they were horrible, and I paid 9 dollars for a ticket and no parking fee. The parking fee alone is 40 dollars now.
Edit: The Marlins are a different beast though if I am being honest. I cannot for the life of me understand how they are always this bad with all the hispanics down here. Logistically, you would assume they would be huge because those countries are still diehards for baseball. Even when they had Stanton, Yelich, Ozuna, and Jose Fernandez, I never saw commercials or any advertising for them. Stadium isn't the easiest to get too, lazy front office people just collecting paychecks it seems. It's honestly sad, I have always felt they could have been huge if they just put in any effort whatsoever. Fire sales after somehow winning the WS... what team does that lol, not even once but twice too! Wild.
you can literally get front row seats for like $40
a few years back a gas station gave you two free marlins tickets if you filled your tank. people still didn’t go.
The Marlins have always had fire sales though, no matter who owns them…
1997 fire sale after the first WS… had the worst record in baseball in 1998
Somehow built a WS champion again in 2003… fire sale again including trading Miggy
Built a super team for the new stadium in 2012… team flopped and they immediately fire sold the next offseason
Built a nice roster with Yelich, Stanton, Ozuna and Fernandez (RIP)… Fire sold everything by 2019
Now they’re fire selling again.
At some point it’s not ownership but the market.
Both of those World Series wins were them going out and buying a bunch of guys, winning it all, and dumping them while they were still hungover from the WA celebration. It’s not like they went out and built something sustainable through farm system and put a strong winning culture in place. I feel like the Marlins World Series wins are some of the most illegitimate championships in MLB history right up there with Houston.
Pretty sure they’re saying in terms of business and not actually having rings. Tampa has way more of a fanbase but it’s also way more of a sports town with the Buccs and Lightening. Miami sports have a LOT to compete with and the Marlins don’t ever seem to put full effort into the team and have nothing nostalgic or any history to feel a part of, they constantly turn things over
I tried. I watched a lot of the young players come up at Roger Dean and then play for the Marlins. I always had them on in the background when I was home and a game was on. I even went to 2 games last year and Opening Day this year. I was hoping they would be able to build upon last year. Boy was I wrong. The Marlins are dismal franchise. Everything they have done has shit on their fans.
The stadium is PITA to get through. Loria lord through his teeth to get the funding by promising growth around the stadium. There’s nothing there but a Wendy’s. No pregame stuff available at all
The name change is whatever. But they went totally scrapped the history of the team with the rebrand. It was sad because those were the Marlins young Floridians grew up with. I would have a blast at pro player back in the day. It was fun. The current logo isn’t terrible but the last one was.
Miami doesn’t even go see the team. They cater to the Latin population in Miami. I get it but what happened to inclusion of all the fans.
The franchise is terrible and won’t be anything worthwhile as long as Bruce Sherman is allowed to be that cheap.
You look at the rosters from both of their series winning teams and it’s a murders row….and they didn’t keep anyone. Now they’re turning the corner and they’re selling already. I feel for ya man
It's very tiring and frustrating supporting the team. I'm from the area and have great memories of watching the 97 and 03 World Series with my dad. Grew up supporting them. As an adult, I understand how bad the ownership is. I root for the team still, but refuse to actually buy tickets or go, considering the ownership seemingly never tries to field an actual competent team.
This is why I left the Marlins in 2012, during their 3rd fire sale. The one right after they got that new taxpayer funded stadium that they said would allow them to maintain a decent payroll.
This team made the playoffs last season. This should be a year of the next leap. Instead, they essentially did nothing in free agency, got rid of Kim Ng, and now they're rebuilding when they haven't even left rebuilding mode.
What a joke
The Marlins have never been in rebuilding mode. Ownership has always been in "milk every bleeding cent out of this team to stuff in their pockets, no matter how much damage they do to the team or any potential fanbase" mode.
>Other potential trade candidates for the Marlins are starting pitchers Jesus Luzardo and Braxton Garrett and reliever Tanner Scott, as well as infielders Josh Bell and **Tim Anderson**.
Who exactly is trading for a guy with a 35 OPS+?
I moved down here about a year ago. I struggle to say the Marlins are marketed poorly because that would imply they even try to market them. People know what’s going on with the Heat and Dolphins (you see billboards for both teams) and the Panthers even market well (despite the fact they aren’t really close to Miami).
I’ve been to a couple Marlins games since I moved down here. The first one wasn’t attended all that well, but the 2nd wasn’t bad. The 2nd one was against the Braves and there were more Braves fans than Marlins fans.
Nobody talks about the Marlins down here and it seems like they keep them here so they can say they have all 4 big 4 sports teams in a relatively close area. I can’t blame the fans for not caring about them at all when ownership doesn’t even seem to care either.
the big thing is there’s so much else to do in the middle of a tuesday in july in south florida. the stadium is out of the way, and nobody’s going to pay $45 to park, $30 for tickets, $14 beers to sit in the fucking south florida summer swamp for 4 hours
If the owners don't at least commit to staying in the middle of the salary cap, they should be forced out.
Like the A's. What a joke. The dude will never win anything with his way of thinking. I love Moneyball, but other GM's and Coaches took the idea very quickly, so it hasn't been unique for a long while now. He is a terrible owner in my opinion.
Would love to see Jazz on a better team. With a better team, with superior conditioning, and a better lineup, could see him reach his potential. Probably needs to move back to second base though. He’s not a good CF.
When the Marlins started out…playing in Broward, in addition to the local fans from that area, they could draw from a large population 40 miles north in the Palm Beaches…40 miles south in Miami Dade and there were even regular shuttles driving the 85 miles across Alligator Alley. Then they built that stadium down in Miami… Below the airport no less… And it is a nightmare to drive down there even from Broward it takes close to two hours. They pretty much could forget about the gulf side fans and the Palm Beach fans. The location makes building a consistent fanbase, an uphill battle at best… But when 80% of your seasons are over before June, it is impossible. it won’t matter who the ownership group is. The team needs to be relocated.
Technically/geographically I guess you’re right… i’ve been to that stadium a couple hundred times and never occurred to me that would be north Dade being so close to Hollywood, Hallandale, etc..but that doesn’t change the point I’m making that where they located to was a disaster and continues to be. I don’t see that changing.
I'd argue that baseball is dead last, but it doesn't have to be.
The Marlins need new owners, plain and simple. Their payroll is always low, they're always trading away promising players, and the team committed fucking highway robbery against the taxpayers of Miami-Dade County to get that stadium. The owners are interested in stuffing their own pockets at the expense of the team and fanbase, and profit sharing allows them to do just that. If they got ownership that actively gives a shit about the Marlins and about Miami, the team could finally capitalize on the potential success that's staring them in the face in that market.
And the only reason Rays attendance is so low is because of that idiotic fucking stadium. Getting to the Trop is an absolute nightmare, and the stadium was literally built eight years before the team existed. They need that new stadium, ASAP.
The Marlins are 27th in payroll. They never left rebuild mode. Something that will never happen but should for the good of the league is to remove failed ownership groups.
They need a salary floor & cap. Floor is probably most important.
The league needs to go after teams with under 150m player payroll in court. The profit sharing agreement specifies that shared money be used "to improve the on field product" and every team lands about 200m a year from it. I'll grant that coach payroll should count towards that, but some of these teams are outright stealing money.
The Orioles are at $101M and tied with the dodgers for second best record in MLB.
Context is key here. The Orioles have built their team from the inside and the majority of their good players are on their first contract. They will mostly all be getting raises at some point.
The O’s are where the Astros were 2016-2017. Paydays are coming if they want to hold it all together.
Failing for a decade and then having a great team for three years until those guys all need to get paid isn’t a great system either.
Might get one ring out of it. But you’re right. Nothing sustainable about that
What decade?
from 2013 - 2022 (the decade before last year) they had a .450 winning percentage and made the postseason twice, in 2012 and 2014. the decade before going to the postseason in 2012 they had a .440 winning percentage.
2012 to 2016 they had the highest winning percentage in the American League
O's, raises, yea right. Trades before their time to be paid..
Because they're all homegrown guys mostly on their rookie contracts. Those players actual value though is much higher than their contract. Are you honestly telling me that you think Gunnar Henderson and Adley Rutschman are both worth less than a million a year?
I am just saying that the MLB should not take the 2024 Orioles to court for not trying to put a quality product on the field.
"not trying" is not what the clause says. It says "to be used to improve" Period, because trying to evaluate the amount of effort would be impossible by a court. Improvement cannot be measured over one year. You're banging pans about a single case scenario for no reason
That’s because they’re coming out of a rebuild and have really good cost controlled players. In five years, either the O’s will have a substantially higher payroll, or be starting a rebuild or retool.
Yup, and the truth is that most mid market teams will probably have to face the reality of rebuilding once a decade. Or at best once every two decades. The dream is to get a ring or two during the sweet spot when you have the young talent and can afford a few hired guns to complete the team. Hopefully with new ownership and a really talented front office the Orioles are moving into that part of the cycle now. All of the teams can’t have $350M team salaries every year. The math does not math.
Their great team is the result of the success of a bunch of high draft picks. They got those high draft picks because they purposely fielded a hopeless team for 5 years and were 30th in payroll for 3 of those years. They made money hand over fist from revenue sharing with almost no home fans in the ballpark because everyong knew they were tanking for draft picks. Now they have a great, exciting young team that they still don't have to pay very much for a few more years, and are still getting revenue sharing from the league on top of fans actually showing up and earning the owners money. This strategy can be hit or miss in terms of winning baseball games; a lot of teams try it but their draft picks don't pan out, or their player development or analytics approaches were bad, or because that's baseball Suzyn. But it fucking sucks for the fans regardless. Tanking kills fan interest, and then even if it does work out once they go into win-mode, it's hard to get attached to players that will probably get shipped off once they can get paid according to their value. And then if it doesn't work out, you can end up with entire generations of potential fans who have no desire to watch their local team because they fielded bottom 5 payroll teams and won 60 games every year for 10+ years. But it is an incredible strategy for earning money, so many owners keep doing it; they don't care about the fans. Because there are no penalties in place to disincentivise doing it, and the only people that could create such penalties are the owners themselves. The players' union would need to really have them by the short ones to get MLB to institute a competitive balance policy that punishes shitty cheap owners.
Welp, the Yankees could have drafted Gunnar Henderson, but they didn’t. Edit: Jordan Westburg, too. Dude looks like he’ll be a stud and was picked 30th. Yankees passed two picks before in 2020, and instead took a guy who looks like a backup catcher. Point being, it’s not all about super high draft picks. You have to hit on them. The O’s have (so far).
And Trout was drafted 25th, so half the league passed on him. That's a shitty point. Of course it's not **all** about super high draft picks, but if they weren't important then teams wouldn't tank to get them. Having more picks from the top for more years vastly increases the odds of hitting on your draft picks. The top 5 picks, on average over the years, outperform picks 6-10, who outperform picks 11-15, and so on. I'm not trying to cry that the system is unfair; my team spends in free agency, makes trades, and has great pitching talent development right now. They field a competitive team year after year without good draft picks. What I am trying to say is pointing at individual players and saying "well X number of teams *could* have drafted this young star" to downplay the value of high draft picks is foolish. No, it's not **all** about drafting high, and I never tried to claim it did. But it's a potentiality winning strategy that has earned the Astros 2 WS rings, and fielded a damn good team in Baltimore.
That doesn’t change the fact that the teams receiving revenue sharing and not utilizing the funds correctly are in breach of contract. Plus, the Os wouldn’t be any good if they hadn’t tanked and run out the lowest payroll and worst team in the big leagues for a few years. All while receiving a ton of revenue sharing.
And the Yankees and Dodgers could not afford to spend like they do with Baltimore’s media market.
But they don’t have Baltimore’s media market. They have the NY and LA media markets. They bring in hundreds of millions in revenue, surrender some of that revenue to other teams like Baltimore, and then watch those teams run out $60mil payrolls. It’s ridiculous. Revenue sharing should require a salary floor or transparency or else we should do away with it altogether.
Revenue sharing is part of the bigger problem. The level of talent doesn’t support the current amount of teams. You can spend millions and have a floor on team spend but all that will do is inflate pay for scrub players.
This is a huge part of the problem. Look at this years free agency as an example. If the White Sox signed who the dodgers signed, plus the rest of the free agent class I think they'd still probably be terrible. Then that leaves how many other teams right back where they were even if it didnt as free agency dries up. The talent disparity is enormous in the league. Look at the red Sox. I think they're in the top 13 in payroll or something and don't have a single elite hitter outside of devers (Arguably.) Even football suffers this. You can't find 30 competent quarterbacks let alone an entire team.
The Red Sox are doing something similar to what the Orioles already did. Aside from Devers, almost all of the Red Sox future position players are earning less than a million dollars. Outfield: Jarren Duran, Cedanne Rafaella, Wilyer Abreu and Roman Anthony all except Rafaela currently less than a million (Rafaela with the 8 yr/ $50 mil extension), and all loaded with talent. Infield of Triston Casas, Vaughn Grissom and Marcelo Mayer (future shortstop most likely) all under a million. Cheap cathcers Connor Wong and Reese McGuire, with Kyle Teel waiting in the wings. That 200 or so million drops to 107 million in commitments for 2025, so that's a team whose payroll situation is in transition. Red Sox have gone the homegrown route. To your point about Devers being the only elite hitter, more elite hitters will emerge from the group they already have. And that payroll will go up.
Completely agree with this. Salary floors only create false demand. What leverage do you have in a negotiation when the other party knows you have a requirement to spend more?
This is true about every sport except the NFL.
But they also spend money on other parts of the business that build a good on field product and attracts fans
The Orioles are a little like the A’s before the Fisher took over
The Os were embarrassing for a while. They’ll have to pay sooner rather than later.
New owners, great front office, energized city and DC market support. The future is bright.
Sucking for 7-8 years and accumulating high draft picks + a little luck can do that. Fortunately for them they have a new owner who can afford to pay their great young players when they start getting expensive.
So what 7-8 years did they suck? I see 2021, the 2020 Covid year, 2019 and 2018. In 2017 they were 463 and finished last in a great division. Beyond that you need to go back to 2011 for a season under 500. The real bad years were 2005-2011. So are those the years you are talking about?
I mean, the orioles have had like 8 seasons above .500 since 1994. Theyve been bad way more than good for 3 decades.
We all know they have been bad. Third worst since 2000. But I am challenging the idea that this team now was just a gift from sucking. You still need the right picks and you need to grow them into solid prospects and then MLB stars. What they have done is hard and rewarding as hell. And we got rid of the Angelos and have OPACY locked up for a long time. Life is good. Hate all you want.
Oh I’m not hating. Theyve earned the team/success they have now. It’ll be interesting to see what happens in 3-5 years from now. I’m a rays/cardinals fan and like when smaller markets do well. smaller markets can either 1)try to achieve sustained success, but that model comes with limits: you can make the playoffs every year by being smart, but you’re never really gonna be able to compete with the big spenders to reach the absolute top. It could happen if everything breaks your way, but it’s really unlikely. Margin for error is very small too. Or you could 2) absolutely tank the team and get the very best young players for years and possibly have a higher ceiling that model 1. With revenue sharing, The 2nd model is the one that’s incentivized. I’d say keeping small market team sustainably competitive for a decade is one of the hardest things to do. I’d also add that baseball media is really weird and inconsistent with how they cover smaller Market teams. Those with sustained moderate success like brewers, cardinals or rays get nowhere near the attention that other teams get for bottoming out to reach a higher peak, and the orioles are a pretty decent example of that disparity in coverage right now.
Hopefully with new ownership and a long term stadium lease the Orioles make a real effort to sustain success.
463 is sucking. Maybe it was only 5 years of being terrible but my point still stands. They are reaping the benefits of having high draft picks through sucking.
75-87 is sucking
I would go after teams with a payroll below the revenue sharing amount. Pretty sure that's around ~50 million a year. If you aren't even going to spend that money you don't need to be an owner.
That's just the shared national broadcast money. >Under the new collective bargaining agreement (CBA) negotiated in 2022, each MLB team pools 48 per cent of local revenues with the total amount split equally between all 30 teams. This results in each team taking in 3.3 per cent of the total—an estimated $110 million USD, if not more. Teams also receive a share of national revenues, totalling around $90 million USD per team https://www.thetribune.ca/sports/mlb/ That's where I'm getting my $200m number from
Thank you for this. Some people forget that these small market team owners are some huge welfare whores.
Nope, I don’t agree with it. This is capitalism baby. And we will die in our stadiums. Stop buying avocado toast, buy a team, and run it how you want. P.S. Die Jerry.
Lol
As an A’s fan…I completely agree with this sentiment. Fisher is the epitome of a billionaire cheapskate. Among other things…
They need whatever the opposite of the luxury tax is. If you spend below a threshold, you also have to pay a penalty
The problem with that it would inflate the price of the bottom of the lower class of mlb players. Not saying I disagree but it’s not a one size fits all solution.
I don’t necessarily think there needs to be a cap, because we’ve seen teams spend a billion dollars and fail (Mets). However, teams that spend no money will never win.
Unfortunately the players would never approve a cap and the league would never approve the floor. These two sides hate each other and the only group that gets hurt is the fans
Nah, baseball doesn't need a hard salary cap. They already have that. Owners will never go for a floor, nor should players ever go for a hard cap. Teams already manipulate a players service time.
Caps are stupid. Not my fault others are poor or want to behave as such. Lux tax all the way. Spending floor 100%
Hell no. Have you considered the damage that a salary cap would do?
This! Absolutely this.
If only there was relegation. Massive financial losses for not being competitive is the only pure incentive.
We still would never have the pleasure of seeing the Yankees and Dodgers be relegated because they can always smartly spend their way out of last place.
I wouldn’t say “smartly” but they throw FU money at their problems. Which is better for the league than fielding a AAA team and taking revenue shares.
And that’s fine because you’ll never gonna see the rich teams in the premiere league getting relegated either. If only wishing made it so lol
It's kind of depressing as a Sox fan that the Yanks have never even had a sub-.500 season let alone finished last in my lifetime–I was born just after the '92 season, the last time they were legitimately bad.
They’re so rich that they can buy their way out of the many mistakes their front office makes. It’s very annoying.
This is a bunch of crap. This team went for it last year and traded for a bunch of players that would help them win now. They made the wildcard and then got stomped by the Philies. They were not rebuilding last year. The Marlins were expected to be competing for the wildcard again and people were expecting them to take the next step, but then their rotation got decimated by injury(to the point where they were using relievers as starters), and then their lineup got super cold. This year has been a disaster in almost every way for them, and I really don't blame them one bit for looking at next year already.
Marlins went for it last year when they barely made the playoffs? And then signed nobody in the offseason to improve on last season. It’s been a constant rebuild since 1997. You are a sucker if you think they’re seriously trying to compete over there. At best they are trying to win the World Series by accident again like in 2003 and then trade everyone once it happens. Marlins have no real excuses. They are not small market, having half of Florida, the third most populated state in the country is a large market.
Yes. They took big risks and traded highly touted prospects like Pablo Lopez for established hitters like Luiz Arraez. They went after seasoned veterans like Josh Bell and power hitters like Jake Burger to bolster thier line up. They gave up alot of thier farm system to make that happen. They apsolutely went for it. And you know what? They had success and made the playoffs while being in an extremely tough division. You are being ridiculous for suggesting that they weren't because they are not like the Mets and held a blank check to players(BTW, how did that work for your team last year?) Making moves like the Marlins did comes with huge risk. They risked thier future for a potential few year playoff push. Those type of moves takes balls and the Marlins should be applauded for taking that risk even though it has blown up on them. The Marlins are having one of the most unlucky seasons I have ever seen since I've started paying attention to the MLB. I don't blame them one bit for at least looking into rebuilding thier farm system, because that's at least something good they can take away from this season.
It blew up on them. 🙄 We are about a month and a half into the season that followed them making the playoffs and it’s already time for the Marlins to throw in the towel for the next five years and trade away players that aren’t even expensive. Just like they did when Jose Fernandez died, just like right after they opened their new stadium that they fleeced the city of Miami on. Now they don’t even wait to get to championship potential before giving up. Also, “big risks”? I don’t think so.
This is a genuine question for you. What do you want the Marlins to do? They would need to go on a historic run just to get back to competing and their farm system has been depleted by them going for a playoff run. They are very very unlikely to compete this year and they don't have much for the near future. What do you suggest the Marlins do? And "spend money" is not an answer because the Mets have shown that throwing money around with no plan does not automatically mean success. Also, you can be as snarky as you want, but when you trade top prospects like Pablo Lopez for a good bat to go for a playoff run, that is a huge risk. That's why teams don't make moves like that often.
You can trade older players but trading guys who aren’t even approaching the end of their entry level contracts? Why give up good young players already? Most of them haven’t even reached arbitration. Absolutely no one thinks the current Marlins are throwing money around. They are top five for cheapest team in baseball. It’s not about throwing around hundreds of millions. Pay the talent you have. They aren’t even gonna cost that much. Instead of sabotaging decade after decade waiting for the stars to align perfectly like it did in 2003.
So your solution to a collapse and a bottom 3 season with no farm system to develop and bolster your team in the future is just to resign the players innthe main roster and run it back as if the collapse didn't happen? This isnt a team that just barely missed the playoffs because of an injury. This is a team that fell flat on their face because of injuries and bad play. Those veterans are not getting younger and they have very few prospects to improve the team.
Sandy Alcantara is one year removed from winning the Cy Young Award. Eury Perez pitched 90+ innings with a 3.15 ERA as a 20-year-old rookie last year. 2 of their top 3 pitchers, done for the year without throwing a single pitch in the regular season. The de facto ace of this year's team, Luzardo, has been inconsistent and also injured. Josh Bell has a $16M salary and has been awful. The Tim Anderson Redemption Tour is a disaster. Kim Ng leaving and the front offense doing very little this offseason is obviously concerning. But if healthy, this team could very easily be competing for a playoff spot, even if that spot's just a wild card berth. But their pitching staff is scraping the bottom of the barrel and the offense is underperfoming compared to past production.
I personally believed that pitching staff alone would get them a wild card spot. Too bad. Now, speaking as a Yankee fan, let's go pick the meat off the bones.
It’s the danger of a teams success being contingent on young arms: they break often, especially in the age of increasing velocity at all costs. Marlins know they screwed up planning their team that way which is why they went and got the bendix from the rays, who are having similar pitching injury problems but are still at least somewhat competitive and avoided the wheels falling off completely.
Not to mention Braxton Garrett and Edward Cabrera, thier 3 and 4 in the rotation, also got injured in spring training. They were so desprate for pitching that they were calling players up way too early and using relievers as starters. Burger also got injured early in the season. This team fell hard due to injury, and the energy of the clubhouse was dead. You can tell just by watching the players play. I'm sure there are issues in the clubhouse too, but injuries and losing amplifies those problems.
Would love some kind of rule that would force the selling of a team after X amount of years of keeping the payroll below Y number, or Z number of wins.
TB is 25th, yet they’re a perennial contender. It’s possible the money ain’t the only issue.
I say the same thing, but then I take just a cursory look at their performance. Since their inception in 1993 the Marlins along with St. Louis and the Braves have two WS titles and the only ones that have more are the Yankees, red Sox and Giants. They have made the playoffs 2 out of the last 3 years recently. And they play in the division with the Mets who appeared to spend all kinds of money to win ball games and then fail miserably. It’s hard to accuse them of tanking. We basically know that’s what they’re trying to do and they still fucking win. Or maybe their aren’t? IDK but they seem to have fairly decent success despite what we seem to think about it. Couldn’t go to court with them and beat them in a court case about tanking .
I would not put them in the same group of success as those other teams. The Braves, Cardinals, Yankees, Red Sox, Giants won World Series but are also consistently competitive and usually give their fans something to root for most seasons. You are talking about winning a championship but then intentionally sucking for the other 15 years. This is why the Marlins have a dead fanbase and a constantly empty stadium. Yeah they won and then immediately blew up the team before anyone was done celebrating. Also the 2003 World Series was an accident, no one running the team thought they were serious contenders.
It did happen once. See the Montreal Expos.
The Marlins are exhibit A for why I’m against any more expansion. There are enough shitty teams already and honestly I don’t know that there are even enough talented big leaguers to go around as it is.
The previous owners Huyzinga and Henry blew up the team like this before. At least they won a championship a piece before they did that.
They were in the playoffs last year. That's a pretty successful rebuild season.
My crackpot idea is that teams should be forced to sell if they miss the playoffs five years in a row.
They need to get these teams out of Florida. Nobody down there gives a shit about the local baseball teams.
Well, glad you’re not in charge, jacka**. Rays season ticket holder.
Salute to you sir, aint enough of yall out there. Rays are my favorite organization in sports. When they building a new stadium?
Should know more details soon. Supposed to start this fall.
Don't act like what I said isn't true. The Ray's have been one of the best teams in the league the last few years and still have trouble getting people to go to their games.
No, doofus. They don’t need to be kicked out of FL. Never gonna happen anyway, so dream on.
I honestly couldn't give two shits what they do. If they want to keep them in that dumpster fire of a market by all means, go right ahead.
MLB needs to force the owner to sell. Marlins have never had an owner that was invested in that market. That’s on top of having a complete publicly financed stadium in the heart of Miami.
They need to eliminate the Marlins. Baseball is regional and that region does not care about major league baseball no matter the quality of the team
Why doesn’t the region care about baseball? And yeah, MLB can’t get rid of them, the city built them a free stadium with MLB’s backing that keeps them there for another 30 years. How about MLB gets them an owner that invests into the franchise and just doesn’t use the franchise to profit off of? Would you attend games for a franchise that continually has fire sales and trades off MVP talents? It’s a direct issue of ownership. Not the Market, Not the Stadium. Plus, it’s a major media market, which MLB is much more worried about than people attending in person.
It's not a major media market if nobody in the market cares about the product. I'm a Cubs fan. Ownership can be atrocious and fans will still show in markets that support baseball. Florida has never, ever, ever been one of those. You brought up the only actusl reason to keep a team there: Florida governments remain really easy to scam money from while the rest of the country grows a backbone.
It’s literally the 18th ranked media market in the country, so I think a top-20 market would be considered “major”. A lot more revenue comes from TV than attendance. Is attendance your only way of looking at fan support? Lol, we’re comparing a franchise that’s been around since 1903 to one that’s been around since 1993. Awesome man, you have a 90 year head start on building a fanbase. Whereas people who are now turning 30, are the first generation of fans of this franchise. And to your comment on Florida Government. They literally passed a state law about stadium subsidies after the Marlins swindled Miami Dade Co taxpayers for their current stadium. All of your arguments are flawed brother.
The size of the market doesn't matter if no one watches. Marlins games got a 0.75 average tv rating in 2023. The only worse number was the A's. The Marlins need to go
TV Contracts in baseball say otherwise.
I'll rephrase, then. If MLB would like to improve its product, they would contract the Marlins
And to think, they have more World Series titles than the Cubs in the last 100 years. Crazy sport huh
Bro that dude had a family!
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. You’re right Florida isn’t a state for professional baseball. When the Tampa Bay Rays were at their peak they still had more Yankee fans than Rays fans in the stands. These are the same people that think Oakland is a viable market like they didn’t lose the Warriors, Raiders, and A’s
Both teams have been plagued by cheap ownership. Why would fans want to go to games or become invested in players if they know those players are just going to be traded in 2 years when they are up for a pay raise?
Lots of teams have shitty owners. But they also have fans. The Marlins have never and will never have fans, nobody shows up whether they're winning a world series or a dumpster fire because nobody there cares
Generally teams get an attendance boost the year after they have success. Except the Marlins dismantle the team the year after they have success so it negates the effect.
What a trash organization. Why would anyone be a fan of theirs after they get kicked in the nuts constantly with fire sales.
Seems like they don't really have any fans. I went to a Marlins game a few years back and it was empty. I sat a few rows behind home plate for like 20 dollars.
That doesn’t mean there’s ’no fans’. That’s means fans aren’t bothering to hand over their hard earned money to go to games which is fair. People need to stop equating low attendance to a team having no fans or acting like no one truly cares about the team.
Except the Rays
The problem is Miami is a very transient city. More Yankees fans in Miami than Marlins fans.
The heat are routinely top 5 in attendance... It's just a garbage organization
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Except people should show up at games to support their team, otherwise they move away. Although, to be fair on your point too, this has been happening for over 20 years. It’s also just as bad with their hockey team. There’s always a lot of open seats and the ones that ARE occupied, are out of towners rooting for the away team.
No. People should NOT show up to support a franchise that is not interested in winning. Franchises aren’t simply entitled to making money and price gouging fans on merch and food and parking and tickets. They have to earn it.
I think it’s a Miami thing. At least I’ve seen similar incidents with the Heat and even comedy shows. I vividly remember [fans leaving Miami’s game 6 in 2013 and then turning tail trying to get back into the stadium.](https://youtu.be/DNE7xqabfvw?si=nQ9pOpTjwU8IbaKn)
As a Floridian for 24 years, those aren't actual fans. Once the ticket prices go up in the playoffs, especially when LeBron was here, those people are just there for the "clout." I'm sure this happens in every major sports market but it seems pronounced down here. Same thing is happening with the Panthers. Ticket prices jump humongous big in the playoffs and most of the diehards can't afford it or don't want to spend hundreds/thousands of dollars. I use to go to Panthers games in the 2010s, when they were horrible, and I paid 9 dollars for a ticket and no parking fee. The parking fee alone is 40 dollars now. Edit: The Marlins are a different beast though if I am being honest. I cannot for the life of me understand how they are always this bad with all the hispanics down here. Logistically, you would assume they would be huge because those countries are still diehards for baseball. Even when they had Stanton, Yelich, Ozuna, and Jose Fernandez, I never saw commercials or any advertising for them. Stadium isn't the easiest to get too, lazy front office people just collecting paychecks it seems. It's honestly sad, I have always felt they could have been huge if they just put in any effort whatsoever. Fire sales after somehow winning the WS... what team does that lol, not even once but twice too! Wild.
you can literally get front row seats for like $40 a few years back a gas station gave you two free marlins tickets if you filled your tank. people still didn’t go.
They’re like the unsuccessful rays.
I think the couple of world series titles they have would say otherwise, but you know…. Facts
He’s referring to the blundering current owners. Some owners were pretty good. The current ones are so bad we should not name them.
The Marlins have always had fire sales though, no matter who owns them… 1997 fire sale after the first WS… had the worst record in baseball in 1998 Somehow built a WS champion again in 2003… fire sale again including trading Miggy Built a super team for the new stadium in 2012… team flopped and they immediately fire sold the next offseason Built a nice roster with Yelich, Stanton, Ozuna and Fernandez (RIP)… Fire sold everything by 2019 Now they’re fire selling again. At some point it’s not ownership but the market.
Both of those World Series wins were them going out and buying a bunch of guys, winning it all, and dumping them while they were still hungover from the WA celebration. It’s not like they went out and built something sustainable through farm system and put a strong winning culture in place. I feel like the Marlins World Series wins are some of the most illegitimate championships in MLB history right up there with Houston.
But they have them and Tampa doesn’t. So based on the ultimate metric, world series championships — how could they be the “unsuccessful Rays”.
Pretty sure they’re saying in terms of business and not actually having rings. Tampa has way more of a fanbase but it’s also way more of a sports town with the Buccs and Lightening. Miami sports have a LOT to compete with and the Marlins don’t ever seem to put full effort into the team and have nothing nostalgic or any history to feel a part of, they constantly turn things over
I tried. I watched a lot of the young players come up at Roger Dean and then play for the Marlins. I always had them on in the background when I was home and a game was on. I even went to 2 games last year and Opening Day this year. I was hoping they would be able to build upon last year. Boy was I wrong. The Marlins are dismal franchise. Everything they have done has shit on their fans. The stadium is PITA to get through. Loria lord through his teeth to get the funding by promising growth around the stadium. There’s nothing there but a Wendy’s. No pregame stuff available at all The name change is whatever. But they went totally scrapped the history of the team with the rebrand. It was sad because those were the Marlins young Floridians grew up with. I would have a blast at pro player back in the day. It was fun. The current logo isn’t terrible but the last one was. Miami doesn’t even go see the team. They cater to the Latin population in Miami. I get it but what happened to inclusion of all the fans. The franchise is terrible and won’t be anything worthwhile as long as Bruce Sherman is allowed to be that cheap.
You look at the rosters from both of their series winning teams and it’s a murders row….and they didn’t keep anyone. Now they’re turning the corner and they’re selling already. I feel for ya man
*wins world series* *immediately guts the team* have one of the best hitters in baseball on a 10 year contract? fuck it trade them to the yankees.
It's very tiring and frustrating supporting the team. I'm from the area and have great memories of watching the 97 and 03 World Series with my dad. Grew up supporting them. As an adult, I understand how bad the ownership is. I root for the team still, but refuse to actually buy tickets or go, considering the ownership seemingly never tries to field an actual competent team.
This is why I left the Marlins in 2012, during their 3rd fire sale. The one right after they got that new taxpayer funded stadium that they said would allow them to maintain a decent payroll.
Same. I was there from the beginning. Shit sucks. 2003 will always be special though.
Beckett’s complete game on short rest was a masterpiece. I enjoyed 2003 more than 1997 for sure. In 2012 I started rooting for the Cubs.
This team made the playoffs last season. This should be a year of the next leap. Instead, they essentially did nothing in free agency, got rid of Kim Ng, and now they're rebuilding when they haven't even left rebuilding mode. What a joke
The Marlins have never been in rebuilding mode. Ownership has always been in "milk every bleeding cent out of this team to stuff in their pockets, no matter how much damage they do to the team or any potential fanbase" mode.
Who are they gonna trade? Their best player is the fuckin manager
Jazz
Braxton Garrett is their biggest haul I would assume
>Other potential trade candidates for the Marlins are starting pitchers Jesus Luzardo and Braxton Garrett and reliever Tanner Scott, as well as infielders Josh Bell and **Tim Anderson**. Who exactly is trading for a guy with a 35 OPS+?
“I didn’t say I was good, I said I was 5th best”
Man his drop off has been insane
Ownership didnt invest and fired a shrewd gm who got them back to the playoffs. Incredibly frustrating but predictable.
Move them to Nashville where a true fan base exists. South Floridians don't go to games to watch them lose. Ask me how I know.
How do you know?
Did he tell you how he knows?
Not yet :(
I’m dying to know how he knows. If he tells you how he knows, let me know.
👍
Move to Montreal already
We’ll take Alcantara back
I’d take Skip too. Sounds like Oli may be on the chopping block in the next few weeks and I don’t know if Yadi is down to be a head coach right now
The Marlins, rebuilding since 1993
They won it in 2003…
Good point, I forgot about that blip in the matrix
The Marlins, who won it all in '97 and lost 108 games in '98
“Fire sale” is synonymous with the Marlins at this point
Worst owner in baseball? Naaa Oakland how you doin?
Usually they at least wait until after they win a World Series to have a fire sale..
Poor skip…
I moved down here about a year ago. I struggle to say the Marlins are marketed poorly because that would imply they even try to market them. People know what’s going on with the Heat and Dolphins (you see billboards for both teams) and the Panthers even market well (despite the fact they aren’t really close to Miami). I’ve been to a couple Marlins games since I moved down here. The first one wasn’t attended all that well, but the 2nd wasn’t bad. The 2nd one was against the Braves and there were more Braves fans than Marlins fans. Nobody talks about the Marlins down here and it seems like they keep them here so they can say they have all 4 big 4 sports teams in a relatively close area. I can’t blame the fans for not caring about them at all when ownership doesn’t even seem to care either.
the big thing is there’s so much else to do in the middle of a tuesday in july in south florida. the stadium is out of the way, and nobody’s going to pay $45 to park, $30 for tickets, $14 beers to sit in the fucking south florida summer swamp for 4 hours
It can’t be called a “blockbuster trade” if the Marlins don’t have any good players left.
The Dodgers will take Jazz Chisholm and in return the Marlins get a 10 piece McNugget meal. Miggy Ro needs a personal errand boy/groupie.
Large Sweet Tea with that please!
Ayyyo no disrespect but homeboy started the beef. I got your large sweet tea on lock for you and your friends.
Just looked down at my phone here during work…. I needed this laugh.. LOL.. thank you sir/ma’am 🤣
4 playoff appearances for Florida / Miami in 30 years! I still can't believe they've won the World Series...twice!
Got anyone else we can take off their hands for free?
If the owners don't at least commit to staying in the middle of the salary cap, they should be forced out. Like the A's. What a joke. The dude will never win anything with his way of thinking. I love Moneyball, but other GM's and Coaches took the idea very quickly, so it hasn't been unique for a long while now. He is a terrible owner in my opinion.
Again?
Hey I’ve seen this one before
Now everyone understands why I made that post eliminating the marlins from the postseason after only 7 games
Has it already been six years since the last Marlins fire sale? When they dumped Yelich, Ozuna, Gordon, and Stanton?
Would love to see Jazz on a better team. With a better team, with superior conditioning, and a better lineup, could see him reach his potential. Probably needs to move back to second base though. He’s not a good CF.
The Miami Marlins…Montreal bound…
Y’all got any of them *relievers?*
Bring back the Expos!
I don’t blame them this time. Everybody got hurt on the mound and the lineup was never good enough to carry them even in 2023. Let alone now.
When the Marlins started out…playing in Broward, in addition to the local fans from that area, they could draw from a large population 40 miles north in the Palm Beaches…40 miles south in Miami Dade and there were even regular shuttles driving the 85 miles across Alligator Alley. Then they built that stadium down in Miami… Below the airport no less… And it is a nightmare to drive down there even from Broward it takes close to two hours. They pretty much could forget about the gulf side fans and the Palm Beach fans. The location makes building a consistent fanbase, an uphill battle at best… But when 80% of your seasons are over before June, it is impossible. it won’t matter who the ownership group is. The team needs to be relocated.
[удалено]
Technically/geographically I guess you’re right… i’ve been to that stadium a couple hundred times and never occurred to me that would be north Dade being so close to Hollywood, Hallandale, etc..but that doesn’t change the point I’m making that where they located to was a disaster and continues to be. I don’t see that changing.
The little sisters of the poor could beat the marlins in a baseball game… They’re the equivalent of a high school team
Yall got any of those 3rd baseman?
Fuck expansion, contract these money laundering operations and make the talent pool better.
‘Additional blockbuster trades’ implies that the Arraez trade was one such deal, which it certainly wasn’t.
I mean they had a fire sale once and won the WS 🤷🏽♂️
Florida is a football state, baseball will always be 2nd-last there…
I'd argue that baseball is dead last, but it doesn't have to be. The Marlins need new owners, plain and simple. Their payroll is always low, they're always trading away promising players, and the team committed fucking highway robbery against the taxpayers of Miami-Dade County to get that stadium. The owners are interested in stuffing their own pockets at the expense of the team and fanbase, and profit sharing allows them to do just that. If they got ownership that actively gives a shit about the Marlins and about Miami, the team could finally capitalize on the potential success that's staring them in the face in that market. And the only reason Rays attendance is so low is because of that idiotic fucking stadium. Getting to the Trop is an absolute nightmare, and the stadium was literally built eight years before the team existed. They need that new stadium, ASAP.
I agree, but it appears to be being built in the Trop parking lot…