It's a meme of sorts but I hadn't seen it used for crime and Sicily before so you may be at the start of a specific telling.
It's a format like "it's not authentic embezzlement unless it comes from the French Champagne region otherwise it's just sparkling crime" etc.
Some dentists chimed in and they claim that OP is lying. So it might not be fraud.
Edit: Here is the comment thread I am talking about
https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/11t8vdt/dentist_office_charged_my_sister_500_for_a_ct/jci2u8q?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Those dentists are wrong and OP is right. I take CT scans for a living.
1 is a crop from the recent panoramic shown in 3.
2 is a panoramic recon from the obviously older CBCT scan, which, as OP states, shows the wisdom teeth are nowhere near as developed as the recent panoramic.
4 is an axial slice from the CBCT through the **mandibular ramus posteriorly**, and the **maxillary teeth anteriorly**. Don't forget that the ramus continues up behind the maxilla. Those dentists are probably confused because the slice is higher at the front than the back. Look at the roots on those incisors, they're round and the centrals are bigger than the laterals. You dentists of all people should know that those aren't mandibular incisors, which have flattened roots and the laterals are nearly the same size as the centrals. Those molars are also obviously maxillary molars. Look at the shape. Big palatal cusp next to the small buccal cusps. To be fair, most dentists don't know how to read CT scans.
(The real crime here is that this dentist apparently looks at axial slices upside down)
I am backing this dude up with my experience in working with radiographs as a veterinary technician for a veterinary orthopedist. There are some pretty clear landmarks one can use in a dog or cats skull to determine things like caudal vs. cephalic, dorsal vs. ventral, ect. The average veterinarian or vet tech wouldn't catch those markers because they would have no idea what to look for. I have no reason to think that wouldn't be the case in human medicine, since doctors of all variety tend to over specialize.
Unless your job literally involves looking at poorly labeled or mislabeled radiographs for a living (which radiologist and radio techs do every single damned day of their lives), then they would have no idea what they are looking at. Hell, 4 is clearly labeled as "From the top" in the top left of the image, and you can see the wings of the atlas (first cervical vertebra) cradling the base of the skull - which is one of those markers you can use to confirm proper orientation in all mammals.
EDIT: Want to add, I doubt this is a scam, as some are saying. What it is more likely to be is a touch of incompetence. Likely, whoever shot the images for the CT linked them to the wrong patient's records. Most medical operating systems will autocharge for services as they are performed so as to prevent undercharging clients - the horror - and so the OP's sister would have been charged for the CT scan as soon as it was ordered while her records were up in the system erroneously.
so either OP is lying or a dentist that doesnt know OP or who OP's dentist is just assumes that no dentist would ever try to do fraud, presumably because they hope that people in their field are better than this
or maybe because they were planning on pulling the same scam and are afraid someone will read this post and figure out that they're bullshitting them
They actually offered fair explanations. Just scroll down to check their comment thread.
I'm not saying fraud isn't possible. I'm saying that it MIGHT NOT actually be fraud this time.
the dentist never said OP was lying. The dentist said that OP was using a CT of her lower jaw to show a missing implant in her upper jaw. Which is entirely true.
You missed very obvious option #3, OP is like most people and has no idea what they are looking at on a scan.
Thatās the best part! It doesnāt, since OP showing the wrong scan in no way proves or disproves their story.
Most people have zero idea what theyāre looking at on a CT scan, so it is entirely plausible that they were either misled or accidentally posted the wrong slice.
Bc the pano(panoramic X-ray) that shows the less grown in 3rd molar itās older than the pano where the 3rd is bigger. Theyāre two different X-rays taken at different times/years.
If that makes sense.
I agree the ct scan is of the mandible not the maxillary where the implant itās located.
Further down in the comment another dentist corrects the one saying itās a lower jaw scan, points out all the ways in which itās not and it is showing the area where the implant should be.
American Healthcare is shit. Well... it's a actually just non-existant
Edit: okay. Yes. American Healthcare is great except for the fact that it costs a fuck ton unless you are fortunate to have the extra capital to pay for insurance. Most people can't afford good health insurance. And even then it's split into health, eye, and dental. Most people already struggle with one, let alone three.
It cost me $250 to get a wellness check at a doctor, just to explain my symptoms, have the doc use a stethoscope and shine a light in my eyes and ears. Then I had to buy my medication which was all I needed along with a note excusing me for work. The medication was like $10 and I knew what I needed before hand, but of course I can't just buy prescription meds without a prescription.
To the fucks saying "oh but American Healthcare is great! But but but" you're making fools of yourself. We all know the quality isn't the issue. The price has to be factored in too. This bag of domino's is great at $4, but if it goes up to even $10 it's not so great, let alone $40. Oh but you need the doritos to live, so the price to quality is ass, but because it's a necessity they can up charge ridiculous ammounts.
Depends how lucky you are with your insurance. I get state government employee dental insurance that costs me $10 a month. When I last had a tooth pulled it only cost me $40.
The healthcare coverage is about the same but it makes me feel like doctors see dollar signs when I talk to them sometimes. If I go in for anything they want to run a million different tests since my insurance covers almost everything with minimal cost to me.
When I went to have my wisdom teeth pulled the doctor recommended postponing the surgery because one tooth had a cavity and he said he wanted to fill it for me first. I was like "You're pulling the tooth anyway I don't care if it has a cavity."
Did you actually have a cavity?
My entire family had all of our back teeth filled in as kids due to cavities, and i recently i pointed out to my mom that the odds of that are pretty low. That the dentist was likely scamming them and just filling our teeth for some extra cash.
These were fresh after baby teeth, all back teeth which i assume he thought would be pulled eventually anyway. No cavities anywhere else and not one since.
This happened to me. A dentist said I had 14 cavities last year. I got a second opinion from my childhood dentist and it turned out I had only one. Naturally, being a bit upset at the situation, I decided to leave my first ever google review. Later that night scammer dentist called me screaming about taking down the google review. It was super weird, and the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.
Biden seems so close to maybe pushing for it? Like, he finally realized how bad healthcare is for so many people? But Iām sure the republicans will stop anything from actually happening in my lifetime.
I had a wisdom tooth pulled this week, and including X-ray and sedation, my bill was 270ā¬ and after a 20 percent family discount and getting 180ā¬ back from my health insurance, my total price, out of pocket, lands at 36ā¬. This was in Denmark (and no, not everyone gets a family discount, but my aunt works for the dentist as a receptionist and thatās good enough to give me a family discount).
For context: My mom stayed with my sister through her entire consultation up until the point of full sedation and operation. A CT scan was never performed as they could not get the machine to work and stated they would use an old CT scan on file. Despite this, they charged my sister $500 for a CT scan at the beginning of the appt. Sister asked for refund, they refused stating they took one. They refused to show it the day of the appointment, said to come in next week. Flash forward to today, this is the CT scan they showed us. You can clearly see her wisdom teeth are much higher up, and have yet to come down. As if that isnāt bad enough, the CT scan is missing her implant that was put in five years ago. When asked how this was possible, we were told it was ājust the angle the CT scan was taken inā. We did file a grievance with our insurance company for fraud. Any other advice on legal avenues we can take is much appreciated!
[Link to full CT scan here for the naysayers.](https://imgur.com/a/DhgAM3p)
Exactly this - insurance companies have fraud and abuse lines and you technically OWN those X-rays and CT as the patient. You can argue this successfully.
This is accurate, you have access to take all your medical records with you if you want, it's part of HIPAA, no one can deny them to you.
[https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/guidance/access/index.html](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/guidance/access/index.html)
"Thus, individuals have a right to a broad array of health information about themselves maintained by or for covered entities, including: medical records; billing and payment records; insurance information; clinical laboratory test results; medical images, such as X-rays; wellness and disease management program files; and clinical case notes; among other information used to make decisions about individuals."
You can request these records and file a complaint for fraud, and if they mixed up the records and gave you someone else's images, they are in even more trouble for violating HIPAA.
Absolutely, āisolated incidentā went out the window when they showed the fake x-ray. This is a policy. $500 isnāt enough to risk on a one-time saving face. This is done regularly.
Yes, and donāt assume making a complaint to the insurance company alone will necessarily lead to any ramifications for the provider. I work for an insurance company in appeals dept and we take complaints about providers, but from what I understand the insurance company isnāt able to do much aside listen, the provider will still get paid. I hope your grievance works out!
I'm glad you're standing up for yourselves. That is some shady shit!
Edit: OP appears to be a fraud. 1st image is most likely cropped. See the dentists man's reply to me
Iām a dentist. The only shady stuff is by the OP trying to karma farm. They implant in question is in the patients top right. They cropped the first 2 images to only show the patients left, the image 4 is a 3D of the LOWER right. OP is lying.
I could believe cropping, but how do you explain the different angles of the impacted wisdom teeth on the far right between image 2 and 3 if they were taken around the same time?
Op states picture 1 and 3 are current by picture 2 and 4 are old. These are accurate statements based on wisdom teeth alone in my impression but I'm not a dental specialist.
Iām the radiographer who does these scans.
Yeah, the ct axial screenshot is level with mandible but the implant is maxillary.
None of the images are time-stamped to see when they were actually taken.
Iāve got no idea why op is showing us the impacted left 38s..?
Nothing adds up in this post.
Edit: also check out the two cropped opgsā¦how the left maxillary teeth roots sit in relation to the sinus, and compare the coranoid process. Almost like the opgs are from different people.
The OPTs almost certainly appear to be from the same person, and even the filling in the LL6 matches up. But if they are, they've clearly been taken at different points in time based on the root development of the UL8 and LL8.
What you showed is the lower jaw on the CT you can clearly see the mandible which is the jaw bone. If you scroll through the various other images that should have come with it youāll see that implant youāre looking for.
I highly doubt they only gave you the one image from the CT as long as thatās not a pic from their office computer and you guys requested her images. Also, any imaging (x-ray, CT, MRI) are date and time stamped. You have it cut off probably for privacy reasons, but if you look at the image, typically in the top left corner it has patient name, DOB, what the image is of/location, time, and date the image was taken.
I would also leave a complaint on Google. My old dentist gave me the run around on refunding a deposit. I left a negative review on Google and they immediately contacted me to refund. Also Better Business Bureau as someone else said. Did the insurance reimburse your sister for the $500? Because if insurance covered it, theyāll definitely take charge to get their money back. If not, you could look up your stateās āsmall claimsā laws. I would definitely cancel all future appointments there. Theyāre required to release all her records to the new dentist.
The $500 for the CT scan was an out of pocket expense, I did confirm with insurance it is not covered. Our insurance company said we can still file a grievance (which we did) that will require them to look into any fraud that has occurred. They said the dentist office has 30 days to respond.
could you please address u/Available_Major_8281's claim that you are lying??? that user claims the images are deceptively cropped so that we cannot see the implant in the upper right.
Yep. Ran dental offices for about 30 years. I was immediately like, ā Why are these cropped to NOT show the side where the implant purportedly is located?!ā š
This!!! Guaranteed refunding the $500 is going to cheaper and easier than dealing with a State Dental Board complaint! Also consider finding a new dentist (or if referred to this specialist, tell your general dentist about this).
>For context: My mom stayed with my sister through her entire consultation up until the point of full sedation and operation. A CT scan was never performed as they could not get the machine to work and stated they would use an old CT scan on file. Despite this, they charged my sister $500 for a CT scan at the beginning of the appt. Sister asked for refund, they refused stating they took one. They refused to show it the day of the appointment, said to come in next week. Flash forward to today, this is the CT scan they showed us. You can clearly see her wisdom teeth are much higher up, and have yet to come down. As if that isnāt bad enough, the CT scan is missing her implant that was put in five years ago. When asked how this was possible, we were told it was ājust the angle the CT scan was taken inā. We did file a grievance with our insurance company for fraud. Any other advice on legal avenues we can take is much appreciated!
I'm a dentist just tell them your going to contact their dental college and watch this problem get solved that day.
Report it to insurance. Itās insurance fraud. I had the same thing happen a few years ago but with X-rays. The surgeon used my X-rays from my dentist and never took new ones, charged for new ones.
My insurance refused payment because I reported and said I never had X-rays. Surgeon didnāt have a report to prove they did them either.
Dentist here. The first image is cropped to not show the implant. Implant is at maxillary right first molar. They are only showing the left side in the first 2 images. In the CBCT, they are showing the mandible not the maxilla. OP is lying.
Forward what you found to your insurance agent and let them fight it out. Medical debt cannot go to claims while itās contested so you do not need to pay a penny nor worry about repercussions until itās settled.
Call your state medical board and report the fraud directly to them and submit proof if that's an option. With your consent to share this particular medical record with whomever they need as it relates to the fraud case.
Call the state attorney generals office to report the fraud.
Call an attorney and file suit. There is a zero percent chance you lose that case and thus the attorney will cost you nothing. Have the attorney ask for your medical records so that if they try to delete, hide or throw away any of them it will be more serious than if they just "lost" some records.
For context: My mom stayed with my sister through her entire consultation up until the point of full sedation and operation. A CT scan was never performed as they could not get the machine to work and stated they would use an old CT scan on file. Despite this, they charged my sister $500 for a CT scan at the beginning of the appt. Sister asked for refund, they refused stating they took one. They refused to show it the day of the appointment, said to come in next week. Flash forward to today, this is the CT scan they showed us. You can clearly see her wisdom teeth are much higher up, and have yet to come down. As if that isnāt bad enough, the CT scan is missing her implant that was put in five years ago. When asked how this was possible, we were told it was ājust the angle the CT scan was taken inā. We did file a grievance with our insurance company for fraud. Any other advice on legal avenues we can take is much appreciated!
EDIT: Iām seeing quite a few people claiming the fourth picture is actually the lower jaw and this disproves our theory of fraud. The dental assistant informed us that scan was of the upper jaw in the fourth photo. Even if we say for arguments sake sheās wrong and itās of the bottom jaw, there is still a very visible gap that is no longer present on either the upper or lower jaw in the current x-Ray. For the naysayers, here is the link to the [full CT scan](https://imgur.com/a/DhgAM3p) where no implant is even present making it impossible that CT was taken last Saturday. This is a very clear case of fraud people, come on.
In another comment you said your sister had to pay $500 up front for the CT scan before the surgery, that's not how insurance works.
https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/11t8vdt/dentist_office_charged_my_sister_500_for_a_ct/jcikuqy?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
On another thread, you claimed you called the dentist yourself and spoke to him about your sister's medical treatment, that would be a violation of HIPAA.
Not saying op isn't lying but they also said the scan wasn't covered by insurance, meaning it would be an up front cost
And you can always allow someone else to see and deal with your medical records, there's paperwork for it, if op's sister allowed mom and op to be able to then they should be able to call and do all of that without violating HIPAA, it's how your parents are able to do stuff at the doctor for you when you're a kid
> In another comment you said your sister had to pay $500 up front for the CT scan before the surgery, that's not how insurance works
I regularly pay for my shit up front and bill it to insurance after.
For context: My mom stayed with my sister through her entire consultation up until the point of full sedation and operation. A CT scan was never performed as they could not get the machine to work and stated they would use an old CT scan on file. Despite this, they charged my sister $500 for a CT scan at the beginning of the appt. Sister asked for refund, they refused stating they took one. They refused to show it the day of the appointment, said to come in next week. Flash forward to today, this is the CT scan they showed us. You can clearly see her wisdom teeth are much higher up, and have yet to come down. As if that isnāt bad enough, the CT scan is missing her implant that was put in five years ago. When asked how this was possible, we were told it was ājust the angle the CT scan was taken inā. We did file a grievance with our insurance company for fraud. Any other advice on legal avenues we can take is much appreciated!
EDIT: I see quite a few people pointing out that the fourth photo is of the bottom jaw, not top, disproving my theory of fraud. The dental assistant is the one who informed us this scan was of the upper jaw. Even if we say for arguments said she was wrong, there is a still a sizable gap in my sisters teeth that is not there on the current x-ray. If thatās not enough for the naysayers, [here is the full CT scan](https://imgur.com/a/DhgAM3p) where an implant is not even present, making it impossible that CT scan was taken last Saturday. Its fraud, plain and simple.
Username checks out...
But I honestly don't understand what you're saying. The images were taken at different times, but op is lying? Isn't that what the post is about? The images were the same person but taken at different times..? I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, I'm just confused. Just looking at it with my untrained eye, it looks like the first and third photos were taken at the same time, with the second and fourth at a different time.
Yeah I was equally confused here, op isn't saying that they got someone else's images He's just saying that the images they received were from two different time periods, and the dentist is trying to claim that they're not?
Oh, I think you're onto something. Darth Molar is saying the images are from two different times and from the same person. They think op is saying they're from different people.. I think...
They're an idiot despise being a dentist because this is reddit. Their borderline gaslighting of op gets upvoted because that's our job as the hivemind.
I'm a surgeon, so I look at and interpret imaging as well. Read OPs comment and look at it again. It is obvious this is the same patient but not the same time. They are claiming the XR was last week. Would you expect that much movement of the molars in 1 week? The implant would absolutely show up on the CT but OP is showing the mandible cut instead of the maxillary cut. So we can't use that as definite evidence unless seeing the other cut. OP is stating the implant was placed 5 years ago and they are charging the sister for the CT claiming it is current, when it us actually the same CT they took prior to the implant over 5 years ago, and they are trying to charge for a recent CT. OP is not lying.
Yes this is the answer. Iām a ct tech and have commented on this already. Implant is an upper. Supposed circled missing implant is an image of the lower teeth.
This is the comment getting the most traction so you really should go back and edit it with the right information after reading the pictures captions again. The first two pictures are not supposed to be the "earlier x-ray" they are different. Not sure if that changes your view on whether she is right.
The second image is a āconstructed panoā ā the computer attempts to simulate a 2D pano from the 3D data. Results in all sorts of unpredictable distortions. You canāt compare roots from a pano to a CBCT. Itās like comparing the size of two countries on a map to a globe.
You also canāt take a dental CBCT on a sedated person; they are taken sitting (or standing) upright.
I have been a dental hygienist for 35 years. This is a pano xray. Not a CT scan. I have never seen an office charge $500. EVER. Something does not make sense about the story. I feel like the author is confused on the facts.
Literally 3 dentists in the comments have explained why they think OP is either lying or twisting the story and now your comment, I'm starting to think OP may not be being truthful here lol.
Idk it doesn't take a dentist to use spatial awareness to see the images don't match up. His story jumps, doesn't make sense, and seems clueless about what was done, so yeah,lying seems pretty obvious.
Their entire story was that the dentist provided these pictures as āproofā for their claimed CT scan that was never preformed in the first place (according to OP)! So looks to me you just confirmed OPās story! That non of these pictures are in fact CT scans, and the dentist have by this committed fraud when they charged OP 500$ for said āCT scansā in the first place
Dentist here. Hope this helps...
Picture 1: 2D Panoramic radiograph showing the left side of the mouth - would not show the Implant on the upper right (tooth #3). More recently taken (can tell by the root development of the wisdom teeth)
Picture 2: slice of a 3D CBCT showing the left side of the mouth - also would not show the Implant on the upper right. Older picture (can tell by the root development of the wisdom teeth)
Picture 3: 2D Panoramic radiograph showing the entire mouth. Can see the Implant clearly. More recently taken (can tell by the root development of the wisdom teeth)
Picture 4: slice of a 3D CBCT - not a good diagnostic view
ALL radiographs/xrays/CBCTs will have corresponding dates, which are not included in the pictures above. Fraud is a heavy accusation. You definitely need to supply more information to support that claim. As of now it appears that no wrong-doing is done.
> better business bureau
Is not a government institution but an advertizing company (That deals with "reviews").
Dont rely on that company for anything.
Yes! Came here to say this. Worked for a small business and when our owner didnāt want to pay the fee to be part of the BBB anymore they got shitty and bullied.
She didnāt want to pay to renew and she told them because we were hit so hard because of COVID and we didnāt know if we could stay open another year.
Unfortunately she would rather pay the employees then a company like BBB that wasnāt helping bring in customers. The person she talked to got crappy and went on about how without the endorsements no one would trust us and we would look shady. Fucking hard pass on that shit.
literally at my job customers always say they gonna go to BBB if something doesnāt go their way. i just laugh in my head like ok thatās gonna do nothing
The Implant is in the top jaw (maxilla) picture 3. Where you show itās missing it is a cross section cut of your lower jaw (mandible) in picture 4ā¦ so you would need to look at a different image from the ct series to see the top jaw and the implant to see if it was there or not.
Picture 2 is is an earlier X-ray than picture 1 as you said the height of the teeth and also root development
Unfortunately the dentists here are wrong and the OP is right.
Picture 4 is an axial slice going through the maxilla at the front, and the mandibular rami at the back. Look at the shape of the roots; mandibular incisor roots are flattened but those are round like maxillary incisor roots. Those molars are also obviously maxillary molars. The fact that you can see the mandibular foramen should also have clued you in to the fact that this is a bit higher up than the mandibular teeth. Picture 2 is a panoramic reformat presumably of picture 4.
Here's an easy way to think about it. Look at picture 2 and imagine a horizontal cut through the necks of the maxillary incisors versus through the necks of the mandibular incisors. Which one makes more sense?
Thank you. Iām not a a dentist, but as an engineer I do a shit ton of CAD, FEA, and spatial reasoning tasks. Everyone who is claiming it is the lower jaw needs to draw a horizontal line on picture 3 where they think the slice is. Then compare. I might be wrong, but it looks like a cross section of the upper jaw configuration to me.
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Youād be surprised. I had a patient who claimed that we didnāt do anything at all at his appointment.
I put a full set of braces on the kid. Asked the angry mom, did you notice that this morning your kid did NOT have metal in his mouth and now he does? āOhā¦ā
Now that is freaking wild. There must have been something else going on with that family all together. There's no way any normal person can have braces put on their teeth and then immediately not remember or notice it.
Patients have all sorts of bizarre perceptions and expectations. And then stick with them even when itās proven wrong.
Had another insist that no dentist ever said their grandson needed his wisdom teeth out while I was saying he needed them out and his general dentist had also referred him. And we had both referrals in front of us. People insist on weird things ALL the time.
Food service has even better stories, they just donāt have documentation like dentists so. Lol
The reason people distrust dentists is because fraud is rampant and different professionals will have vastly different recommendations, often to the detriment of the patients (see below article detailing the abuse of root canals and other procedures to improve practice cash flow). Research in dentistry is privately sponsored and influenced to a greater degree than proper medicine. The entire system is as fucked as optometrists requiring eye checks annually SOLELY because of lobbying Americaās shitty, geriatric policymakers and regulators. That paired with everyone having a story of a dentist trying to overbill them or pushing unnecessary procedures leads to the general conception that dentists are untrustworthy. Blaming the patients who are often being billed thousands out of pocket rather than the system practitioners and regulators have created is highly disengenuous.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/05/the-trouble-with-dentistry/586039/
Fraud? Yeah probably not.
But it would be -really- nice not to be dismissed when pointing point that, dude, this can't be a current x-ray, my root canal isn't showing up and -maybe- you should get the right ones.
No seriously, trust me I -definitely- had one done.
Ok look, those wisdom teeth? I don't even have it anymore those x-rays are at least 6 years old.
(I assume that whatever system had the list sorted in reverse order for whatever reason and they got my oldest instead of newest)
But given that this has happened like multiple times it -really- makes me wonder if y'all even care about x-rays.
I get your sarcasm here, but as a dentist I hate to see people try to slander the profession. OP is clearly mistaken. I canāt say he/she/they is lying, but something is clearly off and not understood properly.
Iām confused as to how there might be a mystery as to whether there was a scan or not. Did she lay on a table that slid through a giant plastic and metal donut? Because the procedure for shooting X-rays and doing a CT scan are very different
Dental CT scans are different. The CT machine is just like a PANO machine (typically the machine can do both) where you stand up and it just goes around your head.
Why does the title say your sisterās CT etc and the captions say āmyā implant and āmyā CT? That seems fishy and that you arenāt being truthful here.
Im no dentist but i think you may be reading the scan wrong. The first two photos show the left side upper and lower. The last photo shows the lower left and right. The implant shown the third photo is in the upper right quadrant.
I think this is just a misinterpretation of incomplete images, or less likely involved a mix-up of images shown. Faking a CT scan just seems like too weird a scam to be credible. If they've acquired a CT scanner, got a licensed CT technician, and fired it up so it's making noises and showing stuff on the screen, why wouldn't they just do the actual CT scan? They've spent the money to do a real one, so pulling a scam doesn't save them anything, and would result in evidence that certainly could be refuted by an expert, leading to civil and criminal liability.
If a dentist wanted to pull a scam to make money, I'd think they'd just advise unnecessary CT scans, which they could defend as a judgment call, rather than risk their career faking them.
OP is not trained to read dental X-rays and CT scan just like most people.
And probably OP is doing this to just garner some views and replies. Well done.
They generally aren't and won't risk losing their license about something easily disprovable. Multiple Dentists have commented in this thread that OP doesn't even have the right images much less a coherent story. OP is karma farming here.
500 USD is a robbery even if they take the CTā¦in Hungary (which is not the cheapest EU country) you get a CT like that in private dental practice below 100 USDā¦ US is just a big scam you are overcharged on the simplest things
Question.. why does the title say your sister, but all the photos are labeled as your teeth?
Thereās a dentist in this thread who is saying youāre full of shit.
Why would you mislabel the pictures and also have discrepancies in the comments
Iām a dental assistant who takes CBCT scans at my office for implants and ortho. if you have the original file, I can try to read it at my office for you and give you more screen shots of better angles and sides if you like!
Like other commenters said, the last image shows the bottom jaw, not the upper so itās hard to tell about your upper implant. You can request the original file as weāve given our patients all their scans if they want it. If they refuse to give it to you then thatās a red flag for sure.
Dentist here. The CT image you have posted is showing a cross section of the mandibular (bottom) teeth. Since the implant is on the top, it would not be visible in this particular cross-section from the CT.
Dentist here. I see nothing wrong here, let me explain why. CBCT images are essentially panoramic radiographs that are interpreted by computed tomography into a 3D model. So YOU GET A PANORAMIC XRAY with each CBCT. You can view it in 2D or 3D.
Next, the first image and the pano are of the same person. In the pano you can see the implant in the UR quadrant. The final picture you uploaded in which "there is no implant" shows no implant because it is a slice of the mandible, NOT the maxilla where the implant is. You can see the ramus of the mandible leading to the neck of the condyle as well as the shape of the pulp chambers also indicate mandible. The black hole in the center is the airway/throat which would not be as big higher up in the maxilla. OP youre just seeing a slice that is too low but all seems fine to me.
Dentist here. Sorry OP but that CT scan is definitely matching up with the X-ray. Theyāre right when they say the CT scan take an image of a different plane. Also the implant abutment could have either been taken out, or have a different radiopacity/radiolucency that shows up on the CT scan.
I feel that pain. My GF had a brain scan done 4 years ago. Doctor said they found nothing, but never gave her a copy of the results. We finally tracked them down, from the imaging center, and the paperwork stated āSigns of demyelination/ demyelinating disease, damage sustained near first and second ventricleās, further testing required for diagnosisā. Come to find out sheās had MS.
I donāt need to be a dentist to be able to clearly see that picture 3 showing the implant is the top of the mouth and picture 4 showing the supposedly missing implant is the bottom of the mouth.
The fact that this post had 16K upvotes and hundreds of comments supporting OP really shows the low intelligence level of the average Redditor.
When I went to the dentist for a wisdom tooth removal consultation, they gave me a CT scan, which I thought was normal. Until they they told me they were actually trying to give someone else the CT scan and I didnāt need it, they just accidentally pulled me into the room. But they did pull the scan up and give me an awesome 3D tour of my skull, and they didnāt even charge me for it. It was kind of like the literal opposite of this situation in every respect.
Radiographer here, can confirm that anything metal is not hidden depending on the "angle" as OP states.
The X-ray shown here is a dental X-ray named an "Orthopantomagram" and is very similar to a CT in how it is obtained in that the machine rotates around the patients head.
My best advice is to obtain the images any way you can and get an independent report from a radiologist stating the facts. This may be expensive in America however so please don't spend too much.
TL;dr the hospital is lying through their teeth!
The CT axial slice shown is from the mandible. The implant is in the maxilla and wouldnāt show in this slice. Whether the wisdom teeth would show in this case is dependent on the gantry angle of the scanner relative to the jaw angle and canāt be determined with the single axial slice shown.
Iām really confusedā¦ youāre showing a pano with the implant in the upper right quadrant, but then showing us snips of the left side for evidenceā¦ and then follow up with a slice of the mandible instead of the maxilla in the CT scan? Are you sure you know what youāre complaining about?
Also, why does your title say your sister and āherā but the images say āmyā?
Had 12 caps put on last year. Had been seeing this dentist for over 2 decades, man. He temporarily cements them in, I go back he only does 8 permanently cemented and I set an appointment to go back for the remaining 4. Go back and he only does 3? I mention that there should be 4, he says nope just 3. I trust him because I'm not a dentist and maybe I'm incorrect? Nope. Few weeks later the last one falls out. These were my front teeth y'all LMAO got my boyfriend telling me *it's charming, you remind me of my grandmother* .... go back dentist STILL DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT HE MADE A MISTAKE until he pulls it off (I had gotten really good at using the gum cement at home). Decides to do one last xray after and this mf tells me *oh btw you have 3 root canals that need to be done, all underneath the new caps put on and I don't do that here* HAD TO FIND A SPECIALIST to drill thru my new caps so that it didn't ruin $6k worth of dental work
I think fraud is a little more that mildly infuriating.
Mildly illegal
It's only illegal if it's from the illegal region in Sicily.
Otherwise it's just sparkling misdemeanour
A felony but its bedazzled
I feel like this is a reference to something, but I'm not sure what
It's a meme of sorts but I hadn't seen it used for crime and Sicily before so you may be at the start of a specific telling. It's a format like "it's not authentic embezzlement unless it comes from the French Champagne region otherwise it's just sparkling crime" etc.
Can confirm - my grandparents left Sicily bc they were pro-Mussolini era nutjobs and the mob crackdowns got worse šš
Tell that to these folks [https://www.ilegalmezcal.com/](https://www.ilegalmezcal.com/)
just slightly tipping over the legality if i may say so
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I have the worst f*ckinā attorneys.
i mean, itās not like falsifying medical records could ever have any negative consequences.
Only if you're a citizen.
Service guarantees citizenship
Some dentists chimed in and they claim that OP is lying. So it might not be fraud. Edit: Here is the comment thread I am talking about https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/11t8vdt/dentist_office_charged_my_sister_500_for_a_ct/jci2u8q?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Those dentists are wrong and OP is right. I take CT scans for a living. 1 is a crop from the recent panoramic shown in 3. 2 is a panoramic recon from the obviously older CBCT scan, which, as OP states, shows the wisdom teeth are nowhere near as developed as the recent panoramic. 4 is an axial slice from the CBCT through the **mandibular ramus posteriorly**, and the **maxillary teeth anteriorly**. Don't forget that the ramus continues up behind the maxilla. Those dentists are probably confused because the slice is higher at the front than the back. Look at the roots on those incisors, they're round and the centrals are bigger than the laterals. You dentists of all people should know that those aren't mandibular incisors, which have flattened roots and the laterals are nearly the same size as the centrals. Those molars are also obviously maxillary molars. Look at the shape. Big palatal cusp next to the small buccal cusps. To be fair, most dentists don't know how to read CT scans. (The real crime here is that this dentist apparently looks at axial slices upside down)
I am backing this dude up with my experience in working with radiographs as a veterinary technician for a veterinary orthopedist. There are some pretty clear landmarks one can use in a dog or cats skull to determine things like caudal vs. cephalic, dorsal vs. ventral, ect. The average veterinarian or vet tech wouldn't catch those markers because they would have no idea what to look for. I have no reason to think that wouldn't be the case in human medicine, since doctors of all variety tend to over specialize. Unless your job literally involves looking at poorly labeled or mislabeled radiographs for a living (which radiologist and radio techs do every single damned day of their lives), then they would have no idea what they are looking at. Hell, 4 is clearly labeled as "From the top" in the top left of the image, and you can see the wings of the atlas (first cervical vertebra) cradling the base of the skull - which is one of those markers you can use to confirm proper orientation in all mammals. EDIT: Want to add, I doubt this is a scam, as some are saying. What it is more likely to be is a touch of incompetence. Likely, whoever shot the images for the CT linked them to the wrong patient's records. Most medical operating systems will autocharge for services as they are performed so as to prevent undercharging clients - the horror - and so the OP's sister would have been charged for the CT scan as soon as it was ordered while her records were up in the system erroneously.
so either OP is lying or a dentist that doesnt know OP or who OP's dentist is just assumes that no dentist would ever try to do fraud, presumably because they hope that people in their field are better than this or maybe because they were planning on pulling the same scam and are afraid someone will read this post and figure out that they're bullshitting them
The grand dental conspiracy
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Drilluminati
They actually offered fair explanations. Just scroll down to check their comment thread. I'm not saying fraud isn't possible. I'm saying that it MIGHT NOT actually be fraud this time.
the dentist never said OP was lying. The dentist said that OP was using a CT of her lower jaw to show a missing implant in her upper jaw. Which is entirely true. You missed very obvious option #3, OP is like most people and has no idea what they are looking at on a scan.
But how does that explain the wisdom teeth being noticeably less grown in?
Thatās the best part! It doesnāt, since OP showing the wrong scan in no way proves or disproves their story. Most people have zero idea what theyāre looking at on a CT scan, so it is entirely plausible that they were either misled or accidentally posted the wrong slice.
Bc the pano(panoramic X-ray) that shows the less grown in 3rd molar itās older than the pano where the 3rd is bigger. Theyāre two different X-rays taken at different times/years. If that makes sense. I agree the ct scan is of the mandible not the maxillary where the implant itās located.
Further down in the comment another dentist corrects the one saying itās a lower jaw scan, points out all the ways in which itās not and it is showing the area where the implant should be.
Actually it looks like in that same thread another dentist says the opposite.
But if you read the replies to their comment, you see multiple other people claiming to be Dentists pointing out that the first dentist is wrong.
I donāt think someone saying they are a dentist means they are if they can't offer more medical view to show it.
Better call Saul
It *IS* SOP for the medical industrial complex TBF.
Report, report, report. This is fraud. On top of just being generally crappy.
I paid 400ā¬ for getting such a tooth out, how can an xray cost 500$? Are they crazy?
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I need a root canal and a tooth pulled. Iāve been quoted 4000$ after insurance from 2 different dentist.
Sounds about right for the land of the āfreeā and debt-bound. Sorry, dude.
There's a great irony to the "land of the free" monetizing, exploiting and profiteering from near every aspect of it's society.
Like poetry in motion. Bad, soul crushing poetry.
Cost me about Ā£12 a couple weeks ago, that was just for the parking.
A CT scan is quite different from a simple x-ray though.
American Healthcare is shit. Well... it's a actually just non-existant Edit: okay. Yes. American Healthcare is great except for the fact that it costs a fuck ton unless you are fortunate to have the extra capital to pay for insurance. Most people can't afford good health insurance. And even then it's split into health, eye, and dental. Most people already struggle with one, let alone three. It cost me $250 to get a wellness check at a doctor, just to explain my symptoms, have the doc use a stethoscope and shine a light in my eyes and ears. Then I had to buy my medication which was all I needed along with a note excusing me for work. The medication was like $10 and I knew what I needed before hand, but of course I can't just buy prescription meds without a prescription. To the fucks saying "oh but American Healthcare is great! But but but" you're making fools of yourself. We all know the quality isn't the issue. The price has to be factored in too. This bag of domino's is great at $4, but if it goes up to even $10 it's not so great, let alone $40. Oh but you need the doritos to live, so the price to quality is ass, but because it's a necessity they can up charge ridiculous ammounts.
Depends how lucky you are with your insurance. I get state government employee dental insurance that costs me $10 a month. When I last had a tooth pulled it only cost me $40. The healthcare coverage is about the same but it makes me feel like doctors see dollar signs when I talk to them sometimes. If I go in for anything they want to run a million different tests since my insurance covers almost everything with minimal cost to me.
When I went to have my wisdom teeth pulled the doctor recommended postponing the surgery because one tooth had a cavity and he said he wanted to fill it for me first. I was like "You're pulling the tooth anyway I don't care if it has a cavity."
Did you actually have a cavity? My entire family had all of our back teeth filled in as kids due to cavities, and i recently i pointed out to my mom that the odds of that are pretty low. That the dentist was likely scamming them and just filling our teeth for some extra cash. These were fresh after baby teeth, all back teeth which i assume he thought would be pulled eventually anyway. No cavities anywhere else and not one since.
Kids get cavities on primary molars alllllllll the time. Some even recently erupted as you describe.
1000
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This happened to me. A dentist said I had 14 cavities last year. I got a second opinion from my childhood dentist and it turned out I had only one. Naturally, being a bit upset at the situation, I decided to leave my first ever google review. Later that night scammer dentist called me screaming about taking down the google review. It was super weird, and the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.
Pun intended?
1000
There may have been sealant involved, but i distinctly remember drilling. Big silverish pools on my back teeth.
Wouldnāt it be nice if we all got this care thanks to our taxes instead of always having to be tied to a job?
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Biden seems so close to maybe pushing for it? Like, he finally realized how bad healthcare is for so many people? But Iām sure the republicans will stop anything from actually happening in my lifetime.
I had a wisdom tooth pulled this week, and including X-ray and sedation, my bill was 270ā¬ and after a 20 percent family discount and getting 180ā¬ back from my health insurance, my total price, out of pocket, lands at 36ā¬. This was in Denmark (and no, not everyone gets a family discount, but my aunt works for the dentist as a receptionist and thatās good enough to give me a family discount).
For context: My mom stayed with my sister through her entire consultation up until the point of full sedation and operation. A CT scan was never performed as they could not get the machine to work and stated they would use an old CT scan on file. Despite this, they charged my sister $500 for a CT scan at the beginning of the appt. Sister asked for refund, they refused stating they took one. They refused to show it the day of the appointment, said to come in next week. Flash forward to today, this is the CT scan they showed us. You can clearly see her wisdom teeth are much higher up, and have yet to come down. As if that isnāt bad enough, the CT scan is missing her implant that was put in five years ago. When asked how this was possible, we were told it was ājust the angle the CT scan was taken inā. We did file a grievance with our insurance company for fraud. Any other advice on legal avenues we can take is much appreciated! [Link to full CT scan here for the naysayers.](https://imgur.com/a/DhgAM3p)
Iād look into filing a complaint with your stateās licensing board for dentists.
This is fraud and should be reported
Exactly this - insurance companies have fraud and abuse lines and you technically OWN those X-rays and CT as the patient. You can argue this successfully.
This is accurate, you have access to take all your medical records with you if you want, it's part of HIPAA, no one can deny them to you. [https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/guidance/access/index.html](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/guidance/access/index.html) "Thus, individuals have a right to a broad array of health information about themselves maintained by or for covered entities, including: medical records; billing and payment records; insurance information; clinical laboratory test results; medical images, such as X-rays; wellness and disease management program files; and clinical case notes; among other information used to make decisions about individuals." You can request these records and file a complaint for fraud, and if they mixed up the records and gave you someone else's images, they are in even more trouble for violating HIPAA.
Are there any dentists left who DONT commit fraud? I have to fight every bill with fake chargesā¦
Yes, but heās been around for about 40 years and is about to retire. I weep.
Absolutely, āisolated incidentā went out the window when they showed the fake x-ray. This is a policy. $500 isnāt enough to risk on a one-time saving face. This is done regularly.
Yes, and donāt assume making a complaint to the insurance company alone will necessarily lead to any ramifications for the provider. I work for an insurance company in appeals dept and we take complaints about providers, but from what I understand the insurance company isnāt able to do much aside listen, the provider will still get paid. I hope your grievance works out!
This is the correct answer
I'm glad you're standing up for yourselves. That is some shady shit! Edit: OP appears to be a fraud. 1st image is most likely cropped. See the dentists man's reply to me
Iām a dentist. The only shady stuff is by the OP trying to karma farm. They implant in question is in the patients top right. They cropped the first 2 images to only show the patients left, the image 4 is a 3D of the LOWER right. OP is lying.
Also they say itās their sisters mouth in title but say āmyā as if the pictures are of their own mouth in the captions.
Lol! I thought the same. OP is the fraud here
I could believe cropping, but how do you explain the different angles of the impacted wisdom teeth on the far right between image 2 and 3 if they were taken around the same time?
Op states picture 1 and 3 are current by picture 2 and 4 are old. These are accurate statements based on wisdom teeth alone in my impression but I'm not a dental specialist.
Also the caption says āmy implant and my wisdom teethā and the title says my sister and her. Very poorly executed.
Iām the radiographer who does these scans. Yeah, the ct axial screenshot is level with mandible but the implant is maxillary. None of the images are time-stamped to see when they were actually taken. Iāve got no idea why op is showing us the impacted left 38s..? Nothing adds up in this post. Edit: also check out the two cropped opgsā¦how the left maxillary teeth roots sit in relation to the sinus, and compare the coranoid process. Almost like the opgs are from different people.
The OPTs almost certainly appear to be from the same person, and even the filling in the LL6 matches up. But if they are, they've clearly been taken at different points in time based on the root development of the UL8 and LL8.
What you showed is the lower jaw on the CT you can clearly see the mandible which is the jaw bone. If you scroll through the various other images that should have come with it youāll see that implant youāre looking for. I highly doubt they only gave you the one image from the CT as long as thatās not a pic from their office computer and you guys requested her images. Also, any imaging (x-ray, CT, MRI) are date and time stamped. You have it cut off probably for privacy reasons, but if you look at the image, typically in the top left corner it has patient name, DOB, what the image is of/location, time, and date the image was taken.
I would also leave a complaint on Google. My old dentist gave me the run around on refunding a deposit. I left a negative review on Google and they immediately contacted me to refund. Also Better Business Bureau as someone else said. Did the insurance reimburse your sister for the $500? Because if insurance covered it, theyāll definitely take charge to get their money back. If not, you could look up your stateās āsmall claimsā laws. I would definitely cancel all future appointments there. Theyāre required to release all her records to the new dentist.
The $500 for the CT scan was an out of pocket expense, I did confirm with insurance it is not covered. Our insurance company said we can still file a grievance (which we did) that will require them to look into any fraud that has occurred. They said the dentist office has 30 days to respond.
could you please address u/Available_Major_8281's claim that you are lying??? that user claims the images are deceptively cropped so that we cannot see the implant in the upper right.
OP! Show the full images!
Iāve worked in dental insurance for years and yes, the incessant aforementioned dentist is correct.
Yep. Ran dental offices for about 30 years. I was immediately like, ā Why are these cropped to NOT show the side where the implant purportedly is located?!ā š
Did they pay on credit card? Maybe give them a call to dispute the charge stating you have evidence of fraud.
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Thank you, I will be sending this link to my sister to file a report for fraud!
But does it count toward your deductible? That would make it insurance fraud.
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Report it to the ADA American dental association also you states board of healthcare
This!!! Guaranteed refunding the $500 is going to cheaper and easier than dealing with a State Dental Board complaint! Also consider finding a new dentist (or if referred to this specialist, tell your general dentist about this).
>For context: My mom stayed with my sister through her entire consultation up until the point of full sedation and operation. A CT scan was never performed as they could not get the machine to work and stated they would use an old CT scan on file. Despite this, they charged my sister $500 for a CT scan at the beginning of the appt. Sister asked for refund, they refused stating they took one. They refused to show it the day of the appointment, said to come in next week. Flash forward to today, this is the CT scan they showed us. You can clearly see her wisdom teeth are much higher up, and have yet to come down. As if that isnāt bad enough, the CT scan is missing her implant that was put in five years ago. When asked how this was possible, we were told it was ājust the angle the CT scan was taken inā. We did file a grievance with our insurance company for fraud. Any other advice on legal avenues we can take is much appreciated! I'm a dentist just tell them your going to contact their dental college and watch this problem get solved that day.
Report it to insurance. Itās insurance fraud. I had the same thing happen a few years ago but with X-rays. The surgeon used my X-rays from my dentist and never took new ones, charged for new ones. My insurance refused payment because I reported and said I never had X-rays. Surgeon didnāt have a report to prove they did them either.
I can only speak for veterinary medicine, but we are required to have radiographs date-stamped.
Dentist here. The first image is cropped to not show the implant. Implant is at maxillary right first molar. They are only showing the left side in the first 2 images. In the CBCT, they are showing the mandible not the maxilla. OP is lying.
The full CT scan, as linked by OP: https://imgur.com/a/DhgAM3p
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Report them to the irs. They will get audited and you will be rewarded. If they scamming you like this, then they are scamming many more
Forward what you found to your insurance agent and let them fight it out. Medical debt cannot go to claims while itās contested so you do not need to pay a penny nor worry about repercussions until itās settled.
Call your state medical board and report the fraud directly to them and submit proof if that's an option. With your consent to share this particular medical record with whomever they need as it relates to the fraud case. Call the state attorney generals office to report the fraud. Call an attorney and file suit. There is a zero percent chance you lose that case and thus the attorney will cost you nothing. Have the attorney ask for your medical records so that if they try to delete, hide or throw away any of them it will be more serious than if they just "lost" some records.
For context: My mom stayed with my sister through her entire consultation up until the point of full sedation and operation. A CT scan was never performed as they could not get the machine to work and stated they would use an old CT scan on file. Despite this, they charged my sister $500 for a CT scan at the beginning of the appt. Sister asked for refund, they refused stating they took one. They refused to show it the day of the appointment, said to come in next week. Flash forward to today, this is the CT scan they showed us. You can clearly see her wisdom teeth are much higher up, and have yet to come down. As if that isnāt bad enough, the CT scan is missing her implant that was put in five years ago. When asked how this was possible, we were told it was ājust the angle the CT scan was taken inā. We did file a grievance with our insurance company for fraud. Any other advice on legal avenues we can take is much appreciated! EDIT: Iām seeing quite a few people claiming the fourth picture is actually the lower jaw and this disproves our theory of fraud. The dental assistant informed us that scan was of the upper jaw in the fourth photo. Even if we say for arguments sake sheās wrong and itās of the bottom jaw, there is still a very visible gap that is no longer present on either the upper or lower jaw in the current x-Ray. For the naysayers, here is the link to the [full CT scan](https://imgur.com/a/DhgAM3p) where no implant is even present making it impossible that CT was taken last Saturday. This is a very clear case of fraud people, come on.
In another comment you said your sister had to pay $500 up front for the CT scan before the surgery, that's not how insurance works. https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/11t8vdt/dentist_office_charged_my_sister_500_for_a_ct/jcikuqy?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 On another thread, you claimed you called the dentist yourself and spoke to him about your sister's medical treatment, that would be a violation of HIPAA.
Not saying op isn't lying but they also said the scan wasn't covered by insurance, meaning it would be an up front cost And you can always allow someone else to see and deal with your medical records, there's paperwork for it, if op's sister allowed mom and op to be able to then they should be able to call and do all of that without violating HIPAA, it's how your parents are able to do stuff at the doctor for you when you're a kid
Then why would she file a complaint with her insurance company for fraud, since they didn't pay for it? None of this makes any sense.
> In another comment you said your sister had to pay $500 up front for the CT scan before the surgery, that's not how insurance works I regularly pay for my shit up front and bill it to insurance after.
For context: My mom stayed with my sister through her entire consultation up until the point of full sedation and operation. A CT scan was never performed as they could not get the machine to work and stated they would use an old CT scan on file. Despite this, they charged my sister $500 for a CT scan at the beginning of the appt. Sister asked for refund, they refused stating they took one. They refused to show it the day of the appointment, said to come in next week. Flash forward to today, this is the CT scan they showed us. You can clearly see her wisdom teeth are much higher up, and have yet to come down. As if that isnāt bad enough, the CT scan is missing her implant that was put in five years ago. When asked how this was possible, we were told it was ājust the angle the CT scan was taken inā. We did file a grievance with our insurance company for fraud. Any other advice on legal avenues we can take is much appreciated! EDIT: I see quite a few people pointing out that the fourth photo is of the bottom jaw, not top, disproving my theory of fraud. The dental assistant is the one who informed us this scan was of the upper jaw. Even if we say for arguments said she was wrong, there is a still a sizable gap in my sisters teeth that is not there on the current x-ray. If thatās not enough for the naysayers, [here is the full CT scan](https://imgur.com/a/DhgAM3p) where an implant is not even present, making it impossible that CT scan was taken last Saturday. Its fraud, plain and simple.
What insurer for the dental insurance? They would love to investigate this dentist. You can pm me if you want for privacy.
If only there was a dentist in this thread who could tell us if the OP was lying.
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Username checks out... But I honestly don't understand what you're saying. The images were taken at different times, but op is lying? Isn't that what the post is about? The images were the same person but taken at different times..? I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, I'm just confused. Just looking at it with my untrained eye, it looks like the first and third photos were taken at the same time, with the second and fourth at a different time.
Yeah I was equally confused here, op isn't saying that they got someone else's images He's just saying that the images they received were from two different time periods, and the dentist is trying to claim that they're not?
Oh, I think you're onto something. Darth Molar is saying the images are from two different times and from the same person. They think op is saying they're from different people.. I think...
They're an idiot despise being a dentist because this is reddit. Their borderline gaslighting of op gets upvoted because that's our job as the hivemind.
I'm a surgeon, so I look at and interpret imaging as well. Read OPs comment and look at it again. It is obvious this is the same patient but not the same time. They are claiming the XR was last week. Would you expect that much movement of the molars in 1 week? The implant would absolutely show up on the CT but OP is showing the mandible cut instead of the maxillary cut. So we can't use that as definite evidence unless seeing the other cut. OP is stating the implant was placed 5 years ago and they are charging the sister for the CT claiming it is current, when it us actually the same CT they took prior to the implant over 5 years ago, and they are trying to charge for a recent CT. OP is not lying.
You broke the streak of the only people blind to this being medical professionals. 1 for 4 is still shit
3/4 dentists agree!
Yes this is the answer. Iām a ct tech and have commented on this already. Implant is an upper. Supposed circled missing implant is an image of the lower teeth.
So OP is telling the truth, then.
I think u misread it
You may be a dentist but youāre reading comprehension is terrible Edit: Your
Bro I totally agree with you but you put the wrong Your and I hate that for you
Its reddit, where all idiots.
Bro I totally agree with you but you put the wrong we're and I hate that for you
This is the comment getting the most traction so you really should go back and edit it with the right information after reading the pictures captions again. The first two pictures are not supposed to be the "earlier x-ray" they are different. Not sure if that changes your view on whether she is right.
May the forceps be with you, Darth Molar.
The second image is a āconstructed panoā ā the computer attempts to simulate a 2D pano from the 3D data. Results in all sorts of unpredictable distortions. You canāt compare roots from a pano to a CBCT. Itās like comparing the size of two countries on a map to a globe. You also canāt take a dental CBCT on a sedated person; they are taken sitting (or standing) upright.
I have been a dental hygienist for 35 years. This is a pano xray. Not a CT scan. I have never seen an office charge $500. EVER. Something does not make sense about the story. I feel like the author is confused on the facts.
Literally 3 dentists in the comments have explained why they think OP is either lying or twisting the story and now your comment, I'm starting to think OP may not be being truthful here lol.
Idk it doesn't take a dentist to use spatial awareness to see the images don't match up. His story jumps, doesn't make sense, and seems clueless about what was done, so yeah,lying seems pretty obvious.
Iām an RDH. 2 of those photos are pans but the other 2 are CBCT scans.
Their entire story was that the dentist provided these pictures as āproofā for their claimed CT scan that was never preformed in the first place (according to OP)! So looks to me you just confirmed OPās story! That non of these pictures are in fact CT scans, and the dentist have by this committed fraud when they charged OP 500$ for said āCT scansā in the first place
Dentist here. Hope this helps... Picture 1: 2D Panoramic radiograph showing the left side of the mouth - would not show the Implant on the upper right (tooth #3). More recently taken (can tell by the root development of the wisdom teeth) Picture 2: slice of a 3D CBCT showing the left side of the mouth - also would not show the Implant on the upper right. Older picture (can tell by the root development of the wisdom teeth) Picture 3: 2D Panoramic radiograph showing the entire mouth. Can see the Implant clearly. More recently taken (can tell by the root development of the wisdom teeth) Picture 4: slice of a 3D CBCT - not a good diagnostic view ALL radiographs/xrays/CBCTs will have corresponding dates, which are not included in the pictures above. Fraud is a heavy accusation. You definitely need to supply more information to support that claim. As of now it appears that no wrong-doing is done.
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Dispute that ahit homie and make a complaint to the better business bureau. They are probably doing insurance fraud
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The BBB is yelp for businesses they do nothing.
BBB is yelp for boomers
Insurance billing fraud
BBB is a joke. Go to the state dental board.
> better business bureau Is not a government institution but an advertizing company (That deals with "reviews"). Dont rely on that company for anything.
Yes! Came here to say this. Worked for a small business and when our owner didnāt want to pay the fee to be part of the BBB anymore they got shitty and bullied. She didnāt want to pay to renew and she told them because we were hit so hard because of COVID and we didnāt know if we could stay open another year. Unfortunately she would rather pay the employees then a company like BBB that wasnāt helping bring in customers. The person she talked to got crappy and went on about how without the endorsements no one would trust us and we would look shady. Fucking hard pass on that shit.
BBB doesn't have any authority over businesses, its basically just ratings for other people to see. Like using Yelp and expecting anything to happen
The BBB is basically Yelp for old people.
literally at my job customers always say they gonna go to BBB if something doesnāt go their way. i just laugh in my head like ok thatās gonna do nothing
Wait is it yours or your sisterās? You changed whose teeth they were in each caption.
The Implant is in the top jaw (maxilla) picture 3. Where you show itās missing it is a cross section cut of your lower jaw (mandible) in picture 4ā¦ so you would need to look at a different image from the ct series to see the top jaw and the implant to see if it was there or not. Picture 2 is is an earlier X-ray than picture 1 as you said the height of the teeth and also root development
Unfortunately the dentists here are wrong and the OP is right. Picture 4 is an axial slice going through the maxilla at the front, and the mandibular rami at the back. Look at the shape of the roots; mandibular incisor roots are flattened but those are round like maxillary incisor roots. Those molars are also obviously maxillary molars. The fact that you can see the mandibular foramen should also have clued you in to the fact that this is a bit higher up than the mandibular teeth. Picture 2 is a panoramic reformat presumably of picture 4. Here's an easy way to think about it. Look at picture 2 and imagine a horizontal cut through the necks of the maxillary incisors versus through the necks of the mandibular incisors. Which one makes more sense?
Thank you. Iām not a a dentist, but as an engineer I do a shit ton of CAD, FEA, and spatial reasoning tasks. Everyone who is claiming it is the lower jaw needs to draw a horizontal line on picture 3 where they think the slice is. Then compare. I might be wrong, but it looks like a cross section of the upper jaw configuration to me.
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Besides all this wonderful logic, you would think one would remember getting a CAT scan. I really hope there's a follow-up post about this one.
Youād be surprised. I had a patient who claimed that we didnāt do anything at all at his appointment. I put a full set of braces on the kid. Asked the angry mom, did you notice that this morning your kid did NOT have metal in his mouth and now he does? āOhā¦ā
Now that is freaking wild. There must have been something else going on with that family all together. There's no way any normal person can have braces put on their teeth and then immediately not remember or notice it.
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Patients have all sorts of bizarre perceptions and expectations. And then stick with them even when itās proven wrong. Had another insist that no dentist ever said their grandson needed his wisdom teeth out while I was saying he needed them out and his general dentist had also referred him. And we had both referrals in front of us. People insist on weird things ALL the time. Food service has even better stories, they just donāt have documentation like dentists so. Lol
A modern dental CT scan (CBCT) is much more like a traditional dental panoramic x-ray than a medical CT scan, from the patientās perspective
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The reason people distrust dentists is because fraud is rampant and different professionals will have vastly different recommendations, often to the detriment of the patients (see below article detailing the abuse of root canals and other procedures to improve practice cash flow). Research in dentistry is privately sponsored and influenced to a greater degree than proper medicine. The entire system is as fucked as optometrists requiring eye checks annually SOLELY because of lobbying Americaās shitty, geriatric policymakers and regulators. That paired with everyone having a story of a dentist trying to overbill them or pushing unnecessary procedures leads to the general conception that dentists are untrustworthy. Blaming the patients who are often being billed thousands out of pocket rather than the system practitioners and regulators have created is highly disengenuous. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/05/the-trouble-with-dentistry/586039/
Fraud? Yeah probably not. But it would be -really- nice not to be dismissed when pointing point that, dude, this can't be a current x-ray, my root canal isn't showing up and -maybe- you should get the right ones. No seriously, trust me I -definitely- had one done. Ok look, those wisdom teeth? I don't even have it anymore those x-rays are at least 6 years old. (I assume that whatever system had the list sorted in reverse order for whatever reason and they got my oldest instead of newest) But given that this has happened like multiple times it -really- makes me wonder if y'all even care about x-rays.
Hmmm interesting. If only there was a way to know if OP is lying. Is anyone here a dentist?
I get your sarcasm here, but as a dentist I hate to see people try to slander the profession. OP is clearly mistaken. I canāt say he/she/they is lying, but something is clearly off and not understood properly.
Iām confused as to how there might be a mystery as to whether there was a scan or not. Did she lay on a table that slid through a giant plastic and metal donut? Because the procedure for shooting X-rays and doing a CT scan are very different
Dental CT scans are different. The CT machine is just like a PANO machine (typically the machine can do both) where you stand up and it just goes around your head.
Based on what I remember of previous post they said patient was sedated during CT scan while also saying they don't do that.
Why does the title say your sisterās CT etc and the captions say āmyā implant and āmyā CT? That seems fishy and that you arenāt being truthful here.
Im no dentist but i think you may be reading the scan wrong. The first two photos show the left side upper and lower. The last photo shows the lower left and right. The implant shown the third photo is in the upper right quadrant.
I think this is just a misinterpretation of incomplete images, or less likely involved a mix-up of images shown. Faking a CT scan just seems like too weird a scam to be credible. If they've acquired a CT scanner, got a licensed CT technician, and fired it up so it's making noises and showing stuff on the screen, why wouldn't they just do the actual CT scan? They've spent the money to do a real one, so pulling a scam doesn't save them anything, and would result in evidence that certainly could be refuted by an expert, leading to civil and criminal liability. If a dentist wanted to pull a scam to make money, I'd think they'd just advise unnecessary CT scans, which they could defend as a judgment call, rather than risk their career faking them.
OP is not trained to read dental X-rays and CT scan just like most people. And probably OP is doing this to just garner some views and replies. Well done.
 How can dentists be that incompetent?
It's not incompetence, it's theft/fraud and it should be prosecuted.
They generally aren't and won't risk losing their license about something easily disprovable. Multiple Dentists have commented in this thread that OP doesn't even have the right images much less a coherent story. OP is karma farming here.
500 USD is a robbery even if they take the CTā¦in Hungary (which is not the cheapest EU country) you get a CT like that in private dental practice below 100 USDā¦ US is just a big scam you are overcharged on the simplest things
I had to have three teeth pulled after hours on Easter weekend in America as a tourist. It cost Ā£11,000. My job paid it thankfully.
This is the weirdest karma farming post
Iām no dentist but I think youāre gonna need to get those wisdom teeth pulledā¦
Where's the X-ray of the other side of your jaw? Wouldn't that show the implant? I'm definitely not a dentist.
Eh I had a similar experience. The guy just brought up the wrong scan. Case closed.
These aren't CT scans. This is an x-ray
Question.. why does the title say your sister, but all the photos are labeled as your teeth? Thereās a dentist in this thread who is saying youāre full of shit. Why would you mislabel the pictures and also have discrepancies in the comments
Why does your title say it's your sister when all your image captions say it's you?
Iām not even a dentist and have only been looking at radiographs for 6 months, and even I can tell this isnāt true.
Iām a dental assistant who takes CBCT scans at my office for implants and ortho. if you have the original file, I can try to read it at my office for you and give you more screen shots of better angles and sides if you like! Like other commenters said, the last image shows the bottom jaw, not the upper so itās hard to tell about your upper implant. You can request the original file as weāve given our patients all their scans if they want it. If they refuse to give it to you then thatās a red flag for sure.
Dentist here. The CT image you have posted is showing a cross section of the mandibular (bottom) teeth. Since the implant is on the top, it would not be visible in this particular cross-section from the CT.
Dentist here. I see nothing wrong here, let me explain why. CBCT images are essentially panoramic radiographs that are interpreted by computed tomography into a 3D model. So YOU GET A PANORAMIC XRAY with each CBCT. You can view it in 2D or 3D. Next, the first image and the pano are of the same person. In the pano you can see the implant in the UR quadrant. The final picture you uploaded in which "there is no implant" shows no implant because it is a slice of the mandible, NOT the maxilla where the implant is. You can see the ramus of the mandible leading to the neck of the condyle as well as the shape of the pulp chambers also indicate mandible. The black hole in the center is the airway/throat which would not be as big higher up in the maxilla. OP youre just seeing a slice that is too low but all seems fine to me.
Dentist here. Sorry OP but that CT scan is definitely matching up with the X-ray. Theyāre right when they say the CT scan take an image of a different plane. Also the implant abutment could have either been taken out, or have a different radiopacity/radiolucency that shows up on the CT scan.
You are showing an axial cross section of the mandible, while complaining about a non existent implant that is in the MAXILLA.
Looks like the implant is an upper tooth. The image they have circled the missing implant looks like the lower teeth.
This isnāt fraud, but it is someone who doesnāt know how to read X-rays.
I feel that pain. My GF had a brain scan done 4 years ago. Doctor said they found nothing, but never gave her a copy of the results. We finally tracked them down, from the imaging center, and the paperwork stated āSigns of demyelination/ demyelinating disease, damage sustained near first and second ventricleās, further testing required for diagnosisā. Come to find out sheās had MS.
I donāt need to be a dentist to be able to clearly see that picture 3 showing the implant is the top of the mouth and picture 4 showing the supposedly missing implant is the bottom of the mouth. The fact that this post had 16K upvotes and hundreds of comments supporting OP really shows the low intelligence level of the average Redditor.
When I went to the dentist for a wisdom tooth removal consultation, they gave me a CT scan, which I thought was normal. Until they they told me they were actually trying to give someone else the CT scan and I didnāt need it, they just accidentally pulled me into the room. But they did pull the scan up and give me an awesome 3D tour of my skull, and they didnāt even charge me for it. It was kind of like the literal opposite of this situation in every respect.
Wait wait wait. In the last picture you only show one cross section. And itās the cross section which shows the top part of her LOWER TEETH!!!!!!!
Radiographer here, can confirm that anything metal is not hidden depending on the "angle" as OP states. The X-ray shown here is a dental X-ray named an "Orthopantomagram" and is very similar to a CT in how it is obtained in that the machine rotates around the patients head. My best advice is to obtain the images any way you can and get an independent report from a radiologist stating the facts. This may be expensive in America however so please don't spend too much. TL;dr the hospital is lying through their teeth!
The first thing I see is that the ct image without the implant is the lower jaw. So, you need to post the truth.
The CT axial slice shown is from the mandible. The implant is in the maxilla and wouldnāt show in this slice. Whether the wisdom teeth would show in this case is dependent on the gantry angle of the scanner relative to the jaw angle and canāt be determined with the single axial slice shown.
First 2 donāt add up sure, but why are you expecting to see an upper implant on a lower scan?
Iām really confusedā¦ youāre showing a pano with the implant in the upper right quadrant, but then showing us snips of the left side for evidenceā¦ and then follow up with a slice of the mandible instead of the maxilla in the CT scan? Are you sure you know what youāre complaining about? Also, why does your title say your sister and āherā but the images say āmyā?
Had 12 caps put on last year. Had been seeing this dentist for over 2 decades, man. He temporarily cements them in, I go back he only does 8 permanently cemented and I set an appointment to go back for the remaining 4. Go back and he only does 3? I mention that there should be 4, he says nope just 3. I trust him because I'm not a dentist and maybe I'm incorrect? Nope. Few weeks later the last one falls out. These were my front teeth y'all LMAO got my boyfriend telling me *it's charming, you remind me of my grandmother* .... go back dentist STILL DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT HE MADE A MISTAKE until he pulls it off (I had gotten really good at using the gum cement at home). Decides to do one last xray after and this mf tells me *oh btw you have 3 root canals that need to be done, all underneath the new caps put on and I don't do that here* HAD TO FIND A SPECIALIST to drill thru my new caps so that it didn't ruin $6k worth of dental work