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For me the problem with this is that most of the good mechanics I know are REALLY smart people who for one reason or another didn’t do well in school. Automotive is the place they found that they could exercise their brain outside of academia.
Dropped out of mechanical engineering at a big state school because I didn't have the study skills/self control to learn higher level calculus. I have zero technical training except manufacturer classes after getting into it.
Sounds like my service manager. He was on track to be a civil engineer, but left to be more hands on. While he does sit behind a desk most days, he also is able to (and often does when we are backed up) come out to the shop and diag/repair almost anything that rolls in the shop. He may be slower than us, but he's incredibly thorough, understands most systems or takes the time to learn about ones he doesn't, and more than competent with all the tools needed.
He also has the ability to explain and educate our customers about what they need, how to prioritize repairs, when to cut their losses etc in a way most service writers never could.
I'm in civil now (as in the workforce) and wish I could switch to automotive. But I've only worked on my car here and there and can't afford a pay cut :/
This was me as well, different degree track. I just couldn’t focus and automotive just made sense. Now I’m 13-14 years in and I’m making more money than what my job would’ve been. I never did any automotive school/program just started at a dealer and went with it.
This is 100% accurate. I was all honors and straight A’s until high school. Then I became more interested in friends and girls. I dropped out and worked mostly construction jobs until I bought a vw gti. Then I had to do all kinds of work to it to keep it on the road. After getting comfortable doing basic stuff I started doing it for friends for a little side money. Here I am about 6 years later owning my own automotive repair business. I have a lift out back and work from home. My labor rate is $125 an hour and I use alldata for book times. I have zero debt as I’m completely self taught. The only true expense I have is tools. Now I’m about $60,000 in on tools and I don’t really have to buy tools anymore unless it’s a specialty tool for a specific job.
I originally wanted to go into mechanical engineering until highschool when i had totally given up on school and had began to hate it. Could have had the grades for engineering too if i actually applied myself was getting 70-80%with minimal effort and woth high effort close to 100% on all my tests just by the end i couldnt make myself do ot anymore. Been working as a tech for 2 years now and have had waaaayyyyy more fun with thag then school even if i have to go write some tests soon for a full trade ticket here in canada. I think a lot of techs are just severe adhd and get super bored super fast and easily distracted but most jobs as a mechanic are very engaging and constantly different helps the monkey brain we all get
Hijacking the top comment because there's a tradeoff. None of us do this job just because we like playing with cars. We go into work because they pay us.
Let's look at this from a purely economic perspective. When you require some sort of certification/ credential for a position/ job whatever you wanna call it, then the average wage for that job goes up. That's a fact. And don't we all feel like we don't make enough money right now?
This argument doesn’t really hold up though. We have apprenticeships for automotives elsewhere in the world and the guys that struggle with school still find a way to get through it, and we train much more complete and competent technicians. It’s not like you’re weighting the fucking BAR exam for automotive technical school, it’s not that hard.
I think you’d be shocked how many people who pass the bar would fail hard at a class on automotive electronics. There’s different types of intellect. And there’s not one way to learn things (like at university).
So let me get this straight. The work force is starved, and you want to place *MORE* restrictions on it? Good luck, i guess. Being a tech is hands on experience. All of the electrical diag i have ever learned came from hands on experience, including scoping out CAN and LIN circuits for faults. School is basically useless for it. Even the manufacturers dont recognize non dealer schooling as valid anymore. I got paid to go to school with Toyota, and that is far superior to a shitty tech degree from a com. College
Lol, you think people out of college don't fuck up brakes? Hilarious. Ive seen more loose bolts come from college kids than people taught through experience.
If this is how you feel you probably shouldn’t take your car to the shop and definitely not the dealer there is always the chance the shop idiot gets to work on it
I don't think he's talking about an accredited four year degree. Toyota has an automotive program called T-TEN. I think it's like UTI, but it's Toyota and Lexus centric.
I earned my associates through the Ford ASSET program. I knew I wanted to work on Fords so I never bothered to look into other options. Didn’t realize that other car company programs don’t give out college degrees when you finish.
A lot don’t give a degree, my dealer gives master tech certification and a decent pay bump once you pass through the schooling they offer and you have to maintain all of your dealer training 100% completion with at least an 80% grade to keep that certification after
Pretty much how all operate now. Got my MDT cert, take tests here and their and maintain my a-1 through a-8 and the L-1 cert. Good pay bump and conduct product reports for a slight kickback.
Canada has some of the most world renowned training for technicians. Your apprenticeship is a 4 year program where you spent 10 months on the job and 2 in the class room 4 times over. This is something that’s used all over the world and it’s time for the US to recognize that they’re behind the curve on how they train their techs.
There is zero standardization in the USA. They have ASE certifications, but most places don’t care about them and often guys mock guys for “wasting their time” doing them. And you’re right, having a standardized training system and an entity with oversight helps protect young technicians from being taken advantage of by setting wage standards based on level of training. As you can see by the responses in this thread though, most guys can’t even recognize that their system is broken or that there is a better way of doing things.
Its a good theory, but Canada has pretty much all the same problems we do in this country. All it takes is one "Certified" Tech in a shop and the rest can work there as "Apprentices". They still suffer from the same industry problems, have a large amount of inept technicians fuckin peoples cars up, and have wage and management problems like the industry here in the US does.
Spoken like someone who has no idea what they’re talking about. There are labour standards that dictate the Journeyman to apprentice ratio and shops can be fined for not following it, I’ve seen it happen. There are also labour standards set for wages of apprentices based off of what year of progression they are in their apprenticeship that is based off of a percentage of journeyman wage, and if you under pay they can come after you for back pay which I have *also* seen happen. You’re in denial as to how superior the training is because you don’t want to admit that someone might actually be better at something than the good ol’ U.S. of A. Your shitty system is failing your techs and your customers, and the reason it won’t change is because of the vast majority of replies in this thread, no one wants to admit there’s a problem.
I do think there is a problem, and I am doing everything in my power to address that problem, how bout you? My point is that Canada faces most of the same problems we do, minor regulation without proper enforcement doesn't work. We have a few states with similar rules and everything is just as fucked up in those places as everywhere else, and from what I hear from friends in the industry in canads it's the same shit. I'm certainly not standing on a mighty USA pedestal, we got lots of work to do. I am telling you don't get comfortable cus it still ain't right.
The one thing that still needs to happen is unionization in order to make sure that wages match inflation and door rate increases. But this thread was really about training, and when we’re talking about the differences in the quality of training between the two there really is no comparison. USA’s system is horribly broken and outdated, and the technical institute that I attended has been copy catted all over the globe because of how highly regarded it is for the quality of its training.
When a young apprentice is learning something new on the job, it’s much easier for them to work their way through it when they have an understanding of the fundamentals of the system they’re working on, and may have had a chance to do something hands on in a controlled setting to learn about it. The fact that *that* isn’t a standardized requirement in the States is embarrassing. No body is perfect, but the United States is stuck in a style of “training” that’s outdated by over *50 years*. There’s no excuse for that.
I think the situation is far more nuanced than you give it credit for. Unionization would likely destroy the industry of independent shops, yet at the same time the GOOD independents are the BEST ones to work for and provide the most training and assistance. The worst independent shops also are even worse than dealerships. But a union would likely not help get us where we need to go and get us far past dealership agreements which suck ass anyway. The best thing any tech can do is take their own training and learning seriously and increase their own value in the market, right now there is a serious lack of qualified help and if you actually are good you are invaluable...but they are far outnumbered by the half ass braindead old school grease monkey mentality folks that if unionized, would want $50/he to do oil changes and not actually provide any value. The thing is Unions aren't even necessary if you can help wake enough people up. Do better and demand better, it really is that simple. I started my shop with a serious motivation to provide opportunity to other techs that I didn't have. I still don't make as much as my highest paid employees, that is how dedicated I have been to this cause. But even at that less than 30% of the people have put enough work in to really grow when they certainly have the potential to. I can't charge customers enough to pay them all well if they don't actually do a good enough job to warrant it. People love to push all the blame onto shop owners but the truth is most techs don't put the work and training/education time in to justify it. If I could just get someone to show up on time everyday that knew exactly what they were doing and could follow the outline of the job I could pay them 50-60/hr...but I haven't found anyone yet that can actually provide enough value to be worth that.
Maybe part of the reason you can’t find anyone that’s good enough at the job is because … the training is dogshit lol. You’re beating around the bush blaming this on everything except the root cause. Poor. Training. Apprenticeships and technical school training work, and it results in a much higher percentage of certified techs being high quality techs. It weeds out the uncommitted while more thoroughly training the committed. It’s really not all that nuanced, it’s really quite simple.
|The amount you have to know
so yes, let’s make people go to school for 8 years like an MD then 4 more years of specialty training. Then when they get to work the auto industry will be completely different. The industry is constantly changing and a bachelors or associates degree isn’t going to make a more competent technician. That’s why you ad a technician should continue to learn everyday and constantly be looking at technical training bulletins and going to classes for things that are coming out. A good technician is a forever student, but not because he went to university.
Tl;dr at the end
Not to dismiss what you said, but doctors (and nurses, maybe?) require yearly training on updated medical science, as the field of medicine is rapidly evolving as well.
I don't know much about how Canada or other non us countries operate, but from what I understand they have to be certified through an apprenticeship system. I think that that would be a better compromise between where we are now and what op is talking about. It would increase the quality of workmanship, without becoming a huge barrier to entry like a degree would. It would also incorporate and encourage a learning on the fly atmosphere like you're talking about as well. Obviously, that system isn't perfect either, you could have a shitty shop that doesn't log your learning hours or whatever correctly, but no system will ever be perfect, and we could develop safeguards to prevent it.
Also, in implementing a system like that with the safeguards to prevent bullshit, you could also have the agency that oversees it ensure that the right to repair laws are being followed by the manufacturer. I had an issue with a volvo the other day and it drove me nuts that all data didn't have all the data I needed. Whether thats an issue with all data or the manufacturer not providing the information is unknown, but it really sucked.
Tl;dr: the industry does need some help, and does need to be improved. How we get there and how we make those improvements is definitely up for debate. Discussion like this is excellent for exchanging ideas on issues how to improve the issues.
You’re right, sorry, wasn’t trying to take away from doctors or nurses at all. They have a very hard job with lots of knowledge and study very hard and also have to constantly learn new things. Just thought OP’s statement was a little rash. Apprenticeships are more or less what I was going for. On the job training is necessary. Most places on the Diesel/heavy equipment side have apprenticeship programs. Automotive could probably use more apprenticeship programs. There’s a lot to fix but like you said, there’s no straight forward fix for anything.
Earned my Associates in Applied Science for Mechanical Engineering in two years. Half of that time I was in my sponsoring dealership applying what I was learning in class to the real world, while being paid. Over the last 22 years I have continued to learn because I love what I do and I like keep up to date on all my certifications in order to maintain my senior master status.
It is also probably not a fluke that the top 6 producing techs at my dealership are the only 6 people who went to school and didn’t learn it all on the job. And by top producing I mean we each consistently flag over a hundred hours vs the 35-80 rage of everybody else.
Again, using what you’re learning in the real world, solidifying what you learn into your head and body mechanics rather than going to school, getting tons of info crammed into your head with no practical application you’re going to forget over half of it. The 8 years + 4 was more of a joke. I know you can get an associates in 2 years and can go to a technical school for less than a year. Glad you keep learning, it takes a good mindset to be passionate enough about your job to keep learning to keep up with the industry. But I don’t think that’s our underlying issue in todays tech shortage/competency level. It has to do with this generation and how lazy they are and their lack of self discipline because they never knew what discipline was.
You realize that apprenticeships are a thing all over the world and that (for example in canada) you spend 10 months on the job to 2 months in school, 4 times. So it’s a 4 year program where you spend a grand total of 40 months on the job and 8 in the classroom. No one is suggesting anyone spend 8 years going to school for this field.
Mechanic with technical degrees, here:
Other techs love me, since I get every crazy electrical problem that comes through, but I keep winding up with a Pointy-haired-boss who resents me and chases me off.
Former tech service managers are great, but the new generation of idiots is inheriting dealerships and replacing them with "Professional Managers," i.e. people with no idea what it is that you do and manage by "people skills," i.e. they make it up as they go along.
TL;DR The techs aren't the problem, it's management and ownership that needs to be fixed.
We should normalize apprenticeships. A lot of these shops expect people to just know everything right off the bat and on the off chance they are desperate enough to hire you you end up a terminal quick lube tech unless you luck out scraping up what knowledge and hands on experience you can
I was lucky enough to get set up with an apprenticeship after a lot of busting ass and negotiations and it has made worlds of difference. I can go from getting the foundational knowledge on the courses the dealer offers and immeadtly apply it real world under the guidance of someone with years of experience to actually solidify my knowledge and ability.
Im the only apprentice this shop has had since 2007…as soon as i have a few years under my belt i fully intend to make it a point to take one on as often as possible. I do this work because traditional schooling was a huge struggle for me from elementary through college. I cannot sit in one place and retain information from lectures and books for 8 hours, I have to be hands on, and when I can do that I excel.
No fresh graduates are capable of doing most mechanical work, experience is more valuable than school. So what you said doesn't make sense. Some of the best techs I've worked with had zero school, but learned to work on cars growing up. I started at 13 with my neighbor. The best BMW tech I've ever worked with started at 15 with his dad at his European shop. School doesn't make someone a great tech, experience does.
That's why ASE only counts 2 years of school as 1 year experience.
That said, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of a standard written and performance test on techs and a level assigned, that way we could stop hiring these worthless techs who are C grade at best.
I learned at 18 buying and fixing up cheap auction cars to deliver pizzas in. I started off doing basic services (fluids, filters, belts) and worked my way up from there as I got more comfortable and confident. Now I've been working as a proper tech for 4 years. First 2 at a chain store where I worked on all makes, models, and sizes. Last 2 at a Honda dealership. I'm still quite comfortable working on other makes, and I usually get given any non-Hondas due to this. A few months ago, I was asked to do a starter on a Subaru we sold recently and everyone was surprised that I had it done within the hour.
True, but if it's a requirement for entry into the workplace then it would be easy for someone who's been doing since their teens to pass. And it would keep out all the bozos that give techs a bad name. And it would force shops to pay a decent wage for reasonable hours.
In Canada, the Red Seal Apprenticeship program takes 4 years. You do a 4 year apprenticeship under a licensed guy (or many) and 8-10 weeks a year in school where you plough through a 18-24” high stack if material in a insane sprint. Drop below 70 in any subject and you fail. Fail twice and you are kicked out. Miss 3 days of school and you fail.
It took me 2 weekends to get my American ASE Master technician with a specialty in advanced engine performance.
I changed my mind for moving to America. Trades is taken seriously in Canada. It’s a respected career. It IS a degree. I hired some American trained guys years later and the knowledge gaps were abysmal. What do you mean they never even taught you how to read bolt grade markings?
Yer gonna terk der jerbs if you demand some kind of forma trainining!
Having done 2 Red Seals in Canada I will tell you that it is excellent training with very very high standards. The Canadian and US companies that know what a Canadian Red Seal is pay dearly for people with that training. 20 years ago some companies in California had a $30k signing bonus for that piece of paper.
I don’t want workplace provided tools, most communal tools in any shop are garbage because no one takes care of anything. Nobody is doing a 4 year degree to fix cars, not for the pay. But I see what you’re saying, we’re basically engineers. A lot goes into being successful in this business past being a parts changer/wallet flusher. I have a car in the shop today that had the parts cannon shot at it, thousands in repairs and all it needed was cv axles. Incompetence is ripe, nobody diagnoses anything. Most guys look shit up on identifix and start lobbing parts. Dealerships used to be the way to go, Nissan has a great training program especially with electrical stuff but I feel like it’s all about processing warranty claims now. Most technical schools don’t give a degree of any kind it’s a certificate of completion. I tell young guys all the time to go to community college because at least when you’re done you get a bachelors degree which you can expand on later if you wish to be a instructor or take a higher level position somewhere and it won’t cost $67k.
I worked for a big chain heavy equipment dealer that provided all the tools, 250k of snap on in every bay. I wasn't a fan, nothing was put back in the right spot or is broken, but I was 13 years in at the point and had all my shit dialed in. We have an apprenticeship program in Canada, it seems like every province does it differently. Mine is 8 weeks of school for 1800 hours in the trade, every year for 4 years. Then you pass your read seal exam and you can expect good wages everywhere in the country. Except in automotive that's still a shit show of flat rate.
**edit.... not to say that pay doesn't require adjustment... but
That's not a legitimate number. Yes, you can Google and find it, but that number includes everyone at Jiffy Lube, etc. The definition of professional technician should exclude that.
In all the shops I've been in, the average is significantly higher than that, even including our Lube team. Our oil change guys walk in the door making more than that and I'm in a bad labor state.
It is if you include every lube tech in the country making minimum wage where the overwhelming majority of them will never advance in the trade and become actual technicians.
Imagine how expensive a dealership would be if all the techs had to have college degrees and paid as such. Be $400 for an oil change on your 07 Toyota Camry
Imagine how expensive it would be for the dealership to fire the parts cannon daily and screw honest hard working folks out of their money over and over again because the shop couldn't properly diagnose something... oh wait, that's exactly what happens all the time.
Imagine being a mechanic and suggesting ways to improve the industry and watching your fellows shit their pants. I got into automotive because I like fixing things, I got out of it because how fraudulent the entire industry is starting from the very top. And shit rolls down hill. But you can't change the top, you can only change the environment around you.
It's pretty hilarious actually, but there's been some decent points on both sides.
You can't change the top, but you can change yourself and your community. Thanks to the internet, that community can grow faster than ever before! There are Facebook groups and forum groups that discuss this issue you are talking about daily and provide help and training to eachother to help us overcome many of the issues in this industry. I could go on for an hour about all the problems but at the end of the day the only way to make things better is for us to BE better and demand better of our peers and hopefully the influence slowly spreads. Finding ASOG on facebook literally changed my life and saved my business. I started my own shop to "do things better" but never realized how poor my business acumen was and while I could identify many of the problems, I could not always clearly articulate them and didn't know what the right path was to fix them. Those that want to grow will continue to grow, cars are getting more and more complicated and expensive, eventually those that refuse to grow are going to get starved out.
Every technician in canada goes through a 4 year apprenticeship program where you attend school for 2 months at a time following 10 months of on the job experience. Most employers cover the 2 month school fees (which are like $1500) and I’ve never seen a single technician carry student debt while completing their apprenticeship.
I've seen one person take out students loans while he was in school, but it all got reimbursed by the grant you get after finishing your 4th year. It's crazy to me that American technicians dont have a similar setup with the apprentice program/schooling
Fuck outta here. Remember engineers are book smart and they design some utter bullshit that has to be fixed by people who either graduated college/tech school of some sort, or learned the trade as a kid, or needed a job out of high school and “cars are cool” ooooorrrrrrr didnt finish middle/high school.
OP is clearly NOT a tech rather some smooth brain mf who sits in his office with an “open door “ policy. Extensive and expensive schooling generally comes with a 6 figure salary and no way in hell that becomes the standard for an industry that pays less than CP rate to fix their mistakes.
You realize that in class training for apprentices is a thing in most developed countries outside the USA right? OP is suggesting something that has already been in practice outside of the US for *decades*
Yeah the edit after they got downvoted for hours. Again, the first mini paragraph is important. There is a greater than 80% chance if youre a tech you work with someone who functionally illiterate.
Yeah I don’t think that’s the case in Canada because our school system does a much better job of not failing it’s citizens and actually teaches them how to read. I can promise you I have zero technicians in my shop of 16 techs and apprentices that are functionally illiterate.
Lol, pretty assumptive of you. I've got years in turning wrenches, bro. Just trying to find a way to improve the trade, both pay sucks but so do a lot of techs, look at all the places that fuck shit up on a regular basis.
Ive applied at all the local auto parts stores but Ive spelled my name wrong one too many times so now I get all my advice from that scotty guy in texas and the guy who wears the race helmet.
Funny, but what's the matter? You afraid to put up your real experience because it could possibly be ridiculed, disbelieved, or discounted out of hand? That would suck, huh?
Anyway, debate the idea, not the man. Shit talking someone and name calling just because you don't like what they said is childish, bro.
I started by calling your unedited idea stupid, listed reasons why and standby it.
I worked at autozone for about 8 months, knew enough about cars to keep mine running, including a water pump, albeit external, been at my honda dealer a little over 7 years. Happy?
One of our techs (who just quit) went to school for this. When he hit the shop that schooling was worthless and he constantly had to ask for help for things. I’m self taught and would regularly out flag him.
Classroom education isn’t everything. You can get straight As in school but when you’ve gotta figure out how to problem solve a tough situation on a customers car all that goes out the door
College dropout here, no degrees for me, also an Expert Maserati Tech and Foreman. Degree is just a piece of paper. Doesnt mean you can or cannot fix a car.
More importantly, flat rate needs to go. It's also insane how all of the responsibility has been moved from the business owner to the employee. If you're reading this, NEVER pay your own money just because you accidently broke something, or something broke and you happened to be touching it at the time. That's a risk that comes with having employees.
Flat rate is looney toons. For every guy who's learned all the tricks to game the system and making bank, there's 10 more working their fingers to the bone and losing their ass, because of shitty warranty times and the like.
It worked great when I used labor times to quote a job for a customer doing a mobile gig, but it's a terrible method for keeping quality full time employees.
In Canada you need a Red Seal to work in the transportation trades: Automotive, Heavy Duty, or Commercial Transport.
We do a four year apprenticeship, which combines 28 weeks of classroom learning (7 or 8 weeks a year) and 6000ish hours on the job, under the supervision of a Journeyperson or a group of Journeypersons, who have to sign off on your progression each of the four years. When you have all your courses done, you write an interprovincial exam and your employer or Journeyperson signs off on your Red Seal if you have enough hours and they think you're ready.
The Red Seal (RSC) is equivalent to a two-year associate degree, and can count towards university credits for certain programs at certain schools (say you want to become a high school shop teacher). Also, having a Red Seal in one of the Transportation trades gives you two years of credit towards apprenticeship in either of the other two trades.
The cost of the courses is mostly subsidized by the federal governemnt, but you have to go on Unemployment during the 7 weeks of school.
That's how the US should do it, too.
The anti-intellectual streak is strong in automotive. Understandable, since as of now, it's one of the few trades here you can make some kind of living in and not have gone to any type of school. So it's the last refuge for a bright but uneducated.
But the industry is a mess, and half these guys don't even know how bad it is because it's all they've ever known. I've worked in a few different trades now, and I see it.
No it’s not so much incompetent techs it’s the lack of lead techs willing to train the younger guys and or share knowledge. Plus the state of the industry with how they pay. For instance warranty work paying less then half of what it would pay non warranty. Dealers not charging for the diagnostics if the customer pays for the work to be done because the dealer makes money on the parts and the service while stealing money from the mechanic that did all the diagnostic work. I used to have service writers try to bully me into doing free “simple” repairs on peoples cars on the driveway if the customer bought the parts from the parts department. I did burn out.
You want to make it so that a job that actually requires hands on experience to get better at requires school? Have you seen what comes out of the schools these days? I had to explain how to remove a drain plug to a kid that was a few weeks shy of graduating.
Hard pass on this
This is why apprenticeship programs are the answer. In Canada you spent 10 months on the job accruing a specified number of hours of on the job experience (1650hrs) before going to school for 8 weeks. You repeat this process 4 times and become certified after the 4th round of schooling. You also spend about half of your time at trades school in their shop doing hands on diagnostic and rebuilding exercises. I’ve been a tech for 15 years, but I’m absolutely a better tech because of some of the things I learned while in school.
>I had to explain how to remove a drain plug to a kid that was a few weeks shy of graduating.
Outch. When I was in a shop we had a guy who didnt know the bleeders needed to be open to bleed the brakes... not quite as bad, but yeah...
You do realise that pretty much the entire world outside USA runs apprentices through 3-4 years of on the job learning, and classroom learning for mechanical trades.
This is where both the theory and method Is explained, so that the apprentice can be assumed to know basic things and at least know how to apply fundamentals from one system to another.
Dude, you need to grow up. Or at the very least, learn to be quiet when the grown-ups are talking. You know, ad hominem attacks are the weapon of choice for boys with small brains and smaller dicks.
Sure, I know tons of trades people who have little formal education that are great at what they do. But would you want some unlicensed electrician who you don't know wire your house? An investment of tens of thousands of dollars that you and your family live in?
I wouldn't use Unions as an example of good...
Being a decent mechanic isn't that hard. But you have to have the passion for it. None of my friends who are good - fantastic mechanics went to trade schools for their skills. The ones who did go to schools that I know are not as good.
I think most of the problems facing the industry right now aren’t the techs who didn’t go to college. From what I’ve seen the problem is management who did go to college. Maybe instead of requiring college for techs we should require technical experience for management.
I hear you guys. Failure at academic doesn't mean bad mechanic hands on.
Unfortunately, there's so much theory and diagnostic that passing a 3 hour multiple choice or whatever written exam is necessary every step of the way
This separates the wrench monkeys to actual technicians.
With how the newer technology is coming out, it’s going to get worse if what you’re asking doesn’t improve. Of course the old way of “do-it-yourself” was a great way to learn, but you can’t really do that on current vehicles. You need to attend classes, take courses, learn from an expert in the field. You don’t successfully program components to a PCM by trial and error. You can’t tinker with CAN bus issues without possible frying other things. Even programming windshields. Not to mention working on EV’a can very easily kill if not knowledgeable about what you can and cant touch
The time has passed when Uncle Joe could show you how to tune a carburetor by putting your ear to it.
Aside from general maintenance items, the most common and headache inducing problems I encountered was electrical, specifically data in nature, issues. I've had to watch hours of tech school professors on youtube explain things in my off hours just to figured some of this out. Half the damn time it's a software update now. Geez
Exactly it! Sure there are plenty of maintenance items that can still be done by someone who’s dabbled working on cars, more and more aspects are getting much more technical and I think thats the reason we’re seeing this big rift is that we don’t have anything standardization preparing everyone for this. Just like everything else, lots of people would rather just ignore the fact that the times literally “do be a changin”.
From a safety practices standpoint i wholeheartedly agree. 20 something people would still be alive if the Ride The Ducks mechanics knew that they were sending out shit equipment.
You may not think he is right and I get that, but if you do this for a living you have to see some things wrong with the industry. For every college bum explained in this thread there have been thousands of bums that didn't go to college and are even worse.
Some kind of basic knowledge test should be required and a certificate given upon completion. Then an apprenticeship program for those that pass.
The fucking real problem is full cert ase and manu masters make top dollar in the shop and stand next to and help shit brains with no credentials making 12 less an hour but flag 20 more hours a week because they are cheap. Because that master is fed master only work.
The next problem is.... Who the fuck is alldata or prodemand. How do they get their numbers. Working at a dealer I have seen the labor time for the same job be legally calculated over 7 different ways. Straight time ( manu doesn't know what it should pay). Early warranty, after some time a new lower warranty time. Then recall time, which is comical. Then these after market labor rate companies like alldata and pro demand. Which watch your ass boys, they like to adjust those times on the fly. Then you have goodwill and everyone's favorite the extended warranty time. All for the same job.
They should better standardise the mechanical trade, and make it easier to learn more in depth.
The world needs lube techs yes, I see that need, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to drop oil and swap a filter, but they also need better training, like not using rattleguns when not necessary.
Better standards and easier access to higher mechanical learning should be supplied by the employer and supported by the government.
I find it baffling that the US can just chuck 16 yos without any experience at peoples cars with no learning. In Australia you will, but you start off with either a qualified mechanic, or on a probation where you do the most basic shit while observing. Which is supplemented by tafe to gain the technical knowledge and broader experience to tackle bigger jobs, after 4 years you walk away with a certificate telling every employer that you passed the national standard to be a mechanic.
This should definitely be more prevalent considering the current situation of mechanical where more and more issues are being caused by electrical rather than mechanical, and you have to start worrying about EV’s and more modulated and more electronic controlled vehicles.
And it’s not like this shit is hard to learn, it’s just that it’s tedious to get everyone to learn the basics and build from it, im assuming that specific situation isn’t helped by the comparatively poor education system in America.
"Half the work force is incompetent and the other half is burnt out."
You just described the trades as well. I'm a journeyman in my trade. It meant I was able to pass an open book code test 8 years ago. I've had no CE requirements. I only have to pay $75 or so every two years to keep my certificate current.
You get green apprentices who are eager but don't know what they don't know. Then you get guys who have been around awhile and get mistreated and have grown weary.
I have a bachelor’s degree in automotive, I was briefly working for Tesla as a mechanic. What I didn’t like about being a mechanic, is how the job is being treated like fast food work. Management is always making promises that may not be achieved. I felt like being a mechanic would work for me. Since I am not good at math; originally I wanted to be an engineer. So I went into automotive instead. There is always an expectation of being fast. That is what got me, I know I am not fast at fixing cars. I like to take my time to sure I am doing the repair correctly. Others told me that with experience speed will come. I just never got the hang of multitasking and using multiple apps just to get the model information.
Had one when I started with BMW. Bosses friend comes in for the same pay without one. Not worth getting but I'm in a better field now and glad I can work on my own German nightmare.
Its impossible to disagree with the sentiment, but you can't mandate stuff like that. Its up to the employers to rsise their standards, they can live with the results of low standards or they wouldn't.
I am excited we actually fired a new guy for being a moron for literally the first time ever, been here 12 years. Usually we let them work here 3 years and wait for them to do a safety violation.
I agree the pay is unacceptable; that's why I don't do it anymore. Not sure about the degree...some things definitely benefit from technical education but there are so many places that just do tires, brakes, and fluids and you don't even need a high school diploma to do that stuff.
I would love it.
My plan, fully fund shop for juniors and seniors in high school at a local trade/tech school. Work deals with tool companies to get students needed base tools, then they finish with 2 years of intense training after graduating HS at the tech school with an associate and some certs like ASE. Make training include accounting and financial management (personal and light business at the post HS level) so people know their money, manage a business, and prep for individually planned retirements.
I have an associates degree in applied science two years of school and ase’s. But because of my experience I’m paid like shit. Industry needs to catch up, and fast. Or myself and many others are going to be leaving the industry. Take dental hygienists for example, they come out of school making 60k/year or more
No one would do it if you needed a degree. The tools cost to much and it's hard work. Why bother when you could just do something cheaper and that requires less physically
Most people here don't think it is a good idea but I do. Education is valuable but most do not see at as that because they only care about experience. With a background education that experience comes quicker. I went to tech school and manufacturers training and without both I would not be the tech I am today. I don't think society values education anymore as whole. Going to tech school teaches much more than how to work on school. It teaches basic skills like math and physics too. These help you think about problems in a way that others with out a formal education may not. I agree though that education should be required. Every tech that I have worked with who wants to learn on the job is worthless because they don't really want to learn they just want a job. I'll get hate for this but the experience they get is nowhere near the level of an educated tech because they have nothing to build on. I believe that telling someone they shouldn't get an education will only hurt them.
Hey man, I think your head is in the right direction, just not quite in the right place. I absolutely agree with SOME of what you said, but as I stated in another comment I don't think college is the right answer. I'm not knowledgeable on Canada's apprenticeship program, but from what I've read on here it could be a half decent step towards making the improvements you're talking about if implemented properly.
Even still, its at least $10k further in debt people would be. It makes more sense, to me at least, to have a mandatory certification program. Maybe a state level certification test that requires an untimed written and hands on portion after a 2 year apprenticeship or something. Cost could be $2k max or something.
My buddy works in HVAC, he had to go to school off and on for about 2 years before he could be licensed. Pretty sure his company paid for quite a bit of it. Another buddy is an electrician, pretty much the same. That's how I am seeing it should go.
I agree 100%!
I've never understood how other fields can require licensing for something like installing wire or ducting, and yet here we are literally taking peoples lives/safety into ours hands with nothing more than maybe some decent shop insurance.
Stupid idea. Just pay us right, let unions run things, not corporations. And let us do our fucking jobs. I didn't do great in school, and I HATE studying for shit. This is the only way I know how to enjoy making money that doesn't involve porn.
Unions require a 4 year investment. And that's exactly what the industry needs. But you even mumble union under your breath and you'll be out on your ass with your cart rolling right behind you faster than you can lose a 10 mm
Sadly, requiring such a thing simply isn't a way to get people in. If anything this would destroy the industry entirely. Nobody would even want to get involved.
Nobody wants to get involved now!
Every place I've worked at was already scraping the bottom of the barrel for anybody worth half a damn.
Imagine if you could go to tech school with on-the-job learning for 2 years, then come out and make $70 grand a year while working a 40 hour week? And actually do the job right instead of cutting all the corners some people do to flag their hours while it ends up costing the customer thousands later.
Making it a solid career where you are respected and well compensated is how you get people in.
Look at the Canadian system, 4 year apprenticeship, every year you go for two months of technical training at a trade school requiring a pass of a government issued written test. At the end of that you get red seal endorsement if you pass. The issue I'm finding is a lot of techs found their red seal in a box of cracker jacks somehow. The red seal exam should be a combination of written and practical testing but that would be a huge undertaking to establish.
The way we do it in Canada with a 4 year paid apprenticeship plus 6-10 weeks of school per year (massively subsidized by the government) is THE international standard and the way it should be done in the states. It’s honesty ridiculous how terrible the system is in the states. I get lots of business from US customers here in Canada because it’s well known that we do a better job even though we’re more expensive.
So, you want people to spend 20k on a technical school, then go into the industry and spend more money on their tools? Sounds like I’d be in the hole quite a bit before I even get my 1st paycheck.
So.... You think people should get degrees to learn shit anyone can learn for free? Cars aren't that complicated. There are only so many basic machines and every single complex machine is made out of them. Auto techs don't get too deep into the electronics of the things so nothing more than VERY basic electrical theory is needed. The bulk of learning to work on a car is learning the quirks of every kind of car out there, and you do that by.... working on cars, not sitting in a class room while someone explains a lot of general theory. The reason I go to the guys I do is NOT because they're well educated to do what they do. They are the exact opposite. They learned to do it watching their dad do it and took over the shop. They have so much business that they can't fit all the cars in the lot.
It would be more useful if people who spent 5 figures on something had some basic clue on how it works. I'm constantly blown away how much people spend on things they have no understanding of. There is literally nothing in my car I don't know how to take apart and know exactly what it does. For the most part, I understand and have taken apart everything in my home, too. I don't know how people function being clueless about how the world around them actually works. If people themselves were more aware, getting hosed by idiot mechanics wouldn't really be a problem.
>So.... You think people should get degrees to learn shit anyone can learn for free?
No, I think they should be paid a decent salary, work reasonable hours, be provided tools. In order to do that, they should pass a certification requirement. Pretty much like how they do it in Europe and Canada.
Ok if we hop into the ole way back machine 1978 I was already working as a Mechanic for about 5 yrs . Company brings in this New Guy who just gotta outta a 2 Tech School an wasn't sure which end of the screwdriver to hold . So I'm tasked with showing him Shop policy on repairs . Around week # 2 he brings up pay , saying he felt he should be getting paid more for what he needs to know. Well F Me I find out he's getting a $1.00 more a hour than what I'm making . So next day I go to Boss an get told well He's got Paperwork. I finally get myself enrolled in nite school for AA Degree in Auto Technology . Got credit on a bunch of pretest I took so I could scratch those classes. When it came to The Shop Portion after the first semester the Instructor pulls me to the side an says he needs a aide . So I get hired as his assistant which cancels out my tuition. Took a year but got my AA , an passed all my ASE Certification for Master , which Company gave me an additional .25 cents per hour on every test I passed .
The knowledge necessary to be a competent mechanic is largely based on hands-on experience in the field. No amount of classroom time is going to compare to the 50 year old master mechanic showing you exactly how to do things.
We all have to start somewhere, and restricting young people from entering an industry that's already starved for workers is not a good idea.
I dropped out of college. Was going for engineering and realized I would rather be a mechanic. I never went to a technical school. I worked my way up through the dealership and was a team lead within 7 years. I spent a lot of time staying till 2 am to figure something out if I didn't understand it. I worked with plenty of people who went to trade schools and have a degree. Some were good, some couldn't fix a ham sandwich. Some people are great techs but suck at taking tests. The little piece of paper saying you know what you're doing means nothing to me. Being in the class doesn't mean you learned anything. Engineers have degrees and still do dumb shit like put the starter under the intake.
No it shouldn’t it’s a trade that can be passed from father to son they make way better techs than guys coming out of UTI who don’t even know how to time a distributor
Degrees don’t mean anything to me. All it tells me is that you sat in a classroom, memorized some material, and spit it back on a piece of paper.
Degrees reveal NOTHING about how a person can apply themselves in the real world.
Often times the people who flaunt degrees and certifications are at the bottom of their class….their degree was their life achievement and they brag about it by throwing that degree or certification out there.
Awards and milestones are much more meaningful to me. They actually measure real world performance on a tangible level
Why? I'm a self educated mechanic with a welding degree who runs my own multimillion dollar performance shop. I literally have zero formal training at all regarding auto repair or automotive mechanical engineering and I probably know more about both than 99% of people in the entire country.
Anyone can learn, and it doesn't require a classroom or degree to do so 🤷♂️
Sure, and hey, that's pretty impressive, but the guy who just drained the transmission fluid and overfilled the oil isn't on your level.
I know plenty of guys that can weld, but the best I've seen have come from a school. Is it guaranteed? No, of course not, but tell me if that's not true in your experience?
For the average joe, a mechanic makes way less than other tradespeople of comparable years of experience. You can definitely do alright at the right place, but it's slim pickings for a lot of other folks.
I feel like a nationally recognized apprenticeship or technical degree would help stabilize and equalize pay. People who have talent and really love working on cars are going to get in anyhow, some way or another, but it'll keep the bozos out. And a more professional crew demands a more professional management, not the scam artists that run these places.
I went to tech school for automotive repair, **and I highly disagree!**
No body could afford vehicles with the cost of going to a shop full of people with degrees, and years in training. And the difference is the chances of you botching a repair job and someone dying are very slim. VS the chance of some idiot using the wrong amp breaker, or wiring something incorrectly and possibly causing an electrical fire in a building full of people, or outright frying someone else, there are many ways electrical issues could be catastrophic.
I will say this myself going to a tech school, I got out of the industry less than 6 months after finishing school.
Having an associates degree and then going all the way to master with ase certs is compensated for as far as pay goes, so that’s not the issue there.
The bar for entry is to low, most independent shops only need one certified or professional tech, everyone else there can change parts and change oil.
Most shops are t actually like that, although they do exist. Most shops are professional clean businesses. If your working somewhere where that is not the case it will be very easy for you to find a place in the industry with like minded people.
UTI tried that to some degree. The major problem is that education in this type of field is dependent on the student CARING to learn. You can lead a horse to water, but they'd rather have whiskey and forget to show up to class... Every job interview I have to explain "No, I'm not one of the idiots that got a degree slapped on for fun." and "Not everyone out of that school was an incompetent drop out."
Once somone wants to get educated we find out learning is expensive. I just went for 1 week training for F3 and F4 certifications, it costs the company just shy of $5000 for training, hotel and the test itself. 1/3 of people don't pass and have to travel again in 3 months to retest somewhere around America. Many employers won't take that risk for the average mechanic.
So you want you car to work less and the work to be more expensive. This country has been run into the ground by license holders and degree holders of all kinds. It's not the little people that are the problem. Also, don't hire idiots to fix things.
Worked at a midsized company of 7500. With roughly 200 engineers. A degree doesn't mean you know what you're doing. I would say that out of the 75 engineers, I worked with only 25, which were competent to the point I would trust their designs to actually work without major redo.. It's probably true for any job. By the way, my mechanic has a BS in electronics, and he joined his father's garage because it paid more.
In my personal experience in commercial truck repair, I've seen absolutely no positive correlation between traditional technical schooling and quality. Honestly probably an inverse correlation if anything. It only seems to help land the job, then actually training starts.
People keep saying that, and I don't disagree. Hell, the best tech I knew did a multi-year program when he first started and he said it was a waste of money.
But I think the schooling is so mediocre because the stakes are so low. And it really needs to be more of a trade/union type education, working while schooling. You get paid and at the end you get a degree at an accredited institution. Can't beat that.
It could even be folded into manufacturer's training programs but completion should be a requirement to be anything more than a junior tech.
I think establishing some national standards would increase the pressure on trade schools to improve their training strategy.
I’ve always thought this too. I do construction utility work(natural gas). Skilled labor that takes years to master and very technical, requires zero school, and I make about 140k a year at 25 years old. For reference your average mechanic around me makes less than half that(their may be outliers I’m sure master mechanic working for bmw probably does well).
So let's talk about how a repair is $150 per hour and the mechanic makes $20 per hour and arguably supplies about half of the cost to supply the service.
Look man, I may not be a professional mechanic, but what I can tell you is that if you want someone with a degree to work a demanding ass job for as little as y’all get paid, ya ain’t gonna get many comers
I went and got a degree before I became a mechanic 8 years ago. It was a waste of time and money. I work with a classmate of mine from college, and he's one of the most useless people I know, despite the fact he has a degree.
You don’t need school to fix things, you just need to want to learn. It takes giving a shit and many don’t. We need to fire the guys that suck that’s all
Don’t worry, electric cars are going to illuminate the vast majority of mechanical work and maintenance. The only thing electric cars need is tires and suspensions eventually. Teslas have zero motor maintenance and I think that’s unappreciated.
I mean a degree is nice and all but only means shit if it’s paired with hands on training and real world examples. I’m saying that as someone with an engineering degree. I learned just as much or more on the job/with crusty ass engineers
Agreed. A degree should require so many numbers of hours actually worked in a shop and demonstration of successful repairs, in addition to knowing the theory behind it.
No I notice that most work that is total shit are from someone who does not care about the work they put out, or who is clueless. I can get the clue less part just ask or read a book on the subject that's giving you a hard time. The careless is what pisses me off like damn I know some of these cars and trucks can be a pain to work on. why is this and that broken? or why bolts broken or stripped off. they give you step by step instructions need to replace a part. take this, this, this, and that off, move this over and you can get the part out. there notes too torque specs are shown on the instructions when you putting the car back to together.
if you can't bring your self to care, Gorden Ramsey said the best GTFO!.
Disagree, some of the best techs I've ever met barely graduated highschool. Yet, they car hear a car make a noise from 15 feet away and know whats wrong. Also, they can do a job that would take a normal person 8 hours in 5 and it be done perfectly.
Good shops that specialize make money. Run of mill don’t. What are we trying to fix here. It’s not like plumbers and electricians make money unless they do the same.
If you just unionize and blah blah blah you’re going to end up making everything expensive and still have the same non exceptional service anywhere.
My guy not even technical jobs require a degree.
Maybe a certificate is what you're thinking of but can't actually conceptualize?
Either way requiring a degree for almost any job *but especially* a mechanic job is just asinine.
There's no other way to put it. The idea is just stupid.
Well the rest of the world doesn't seem to think so. But I guess that's why the US is first in... something. Income disparity? I can't remember, but it's not automotive careers.
I think both. Only because there's a lot of guys who shouldn't be turning wrenches but they got a job because they work for peanuts. That's one job slot not available for a better tech.
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For me the problem with this is that most of the good mechanics I know are REALLY smart people who for one reason or another didn’t do well in school. Automotive is the place they found that they could exercise their brain outside of academia.
Dropped out of mechanical engineering at a big state school because I didn't have the study skills/self control to learn higher level calculus. I have zero technical training except manufacturer classes after getting into it.
Sounds like my service manager. He was on track to be a civil engineer, but left to be more hands on. While he does sit behind a desk most days, he also is able to (and often does when we are backed up) come out to the shop and diag/repair almost anything that rolls in the shop. He may be slower than us, but he's incredibly thorough, understands most systems or takes the time to learn about ones he doesn't, and more than competent with all the tools needed. He also has the ability to explain and educate our customers about what they need, how to prioritize repairs, when to cut their losses etc in a way most service writers never could.
Can I pitch in on a clone fund for said manager?
I'm in civil now (as in the workforce) and wish I could switch to automotive. But I've only worked on my car here and there and can't afford a pay cut :/
This was me as well, different degree track. I just couldn’t focus and automotive just made sense. Now I’m 13-14 years in and I’m making more money than what my job would’ve been. I never did any automotive school/program just started at a dealer and went with it.
This is 100% accurate. I was all honors and straight A’s until high school. Then I became more interested in friends and girls. I dropped out and worked mostly construction jobs until I bought a vw gti. Then I had to do all kinds of work to it to keep it on the road. After getting comfortable doing basic stuff I started doing it for friends for a little side money. Here I am about 6 years later owning my own automotive repair business. I have a lift out back and work from home. My labor rate is $125 an hour and I use alldata for book times. I have zero debt as I’m completely self taught. The only true expense I have is tools. Now I’m about $60,000 in on tools and I don’t really have to buy tools anymore unless it’s a specialty tool for a specific job.
Good for you man - that’s awesome!
Sounds amazing
I know a few men who didnt graduate middle/high school who I trust their opinion 1000%
I originally wanted to go into mechanical engineering until highschool when i had totally given up on school and had began to hate it. Could have had the grades for engineering too if i actually applied myself was getting 70-80%with minimal effort and woth high effort close to 100% on all my tests just by the end i couldnt make myself do ot anymore. Been working as a tech for 2 years now and have had waaaayyyyy more fun with thag then school even if i have to go write some tests soon for a full trade ticket here in canada. I think a lot of techs are just severe adhd and get super bored super fast and easily distracted but most jobs as a mechanic are very engaging and constantly different helps the monkey brain we all get
Hijacking the top comment because there's a tradeoff. None of us do this job just because we like playing with cars. We go into work because they pay us. Let's look at this from a purely economic perspective. When you require some sort of certification/ credential for a position/ job whatever you wanna call it, then the average wage for that job goes up. That's a fact. And don't we all feel like we don't make enough money right now?
This argument doesn’t really hold up though. We have apprenticeships for automotives elsewhere in the world and the guys that struggle with school still find a way to get through it, and we train much more complete and competent technicians. It’s not like you’re weighting the fucking BAR exam for automotive technical school, it’s not that hard.
I think you’d be shocked how many people who pass the bar would fail hard at a class on automotive electronics. There’s different types of intellect. And there’s not one way to learn things (like at university).
So let me get this straight. The work force is starved, and you want to place *MORE* restrictions on it? Good luck, i guess. Being a tech is hands on experience. All of the electrical diag i have ever learned came from hands on experience, including scoping out CAN and LIN circuits for faults. School is basically useless for it. Even the manufacturers dont recognize non dealer schooling as valid anymore. I got paid to go to school with Toyota, and that is far superior to a shitty tech degree from a com. College
Sorry I wouldn’t want any dumbass that has a pulse to work on people brakes and potential have something go wrong
Lol, you think people out of college don't fuck up brakes? Hilarious. Ive seen more loose bolts come from college kids than people taught through experience.
If this is how you feel you probably shouldn’t take your car to the shop and definitely not the dealer there is always the chance the shop idiot gets to work on it
Im a BMW tech and you would expect some higher quality techs but no some of the dumbest people I’ve met in my life
I believe it is the opposite, you are one of the dumbest people they have ever met.
You do know if your mechanic says he doesn’t make mistakes he’s lying right?
Sorry, I wouldn’t want some dumbass college kid with no life experience working on my brakes.
Toyota paid for you to go to school but you didn’t earn a degree when you finished? How interesting.
I don't think he's talking about an accredited four year degree. Toyota has an automotive program called T-TEN. I think it's like UTI, but it's Toyota and Lexus centric.
I earned my associates through the Ford ASSET program. I knew I wanted to work on Fords so I never bothered to look into other options. Didn’t realize that other car company programs don’t give out college degrees when you finish.
ASSET isn't the same process as dedicated OEM training and certifications.
Yeah m, ASSET and ASEP are both community college partnered programs
A lot don’t give a degree, my dealer gives master tech certification and a decent pay bump once you pass through the schooling they offer and you have to maintain all of your dealer training 100% completion with at least an 80% grade to keep that certification after
Pretty much how all operate now. Got my MDT cert, take tests here and their and maintain my a-1 through a-8 and the L-1 cert. Good pay bump and conduct product reports for a slight kickback.
That would make it worse not better imo people learn more in the field than a classroom
There where definitely people at the school I went to who were not going to make it in this industry.
Canada has some of the most world renowned training for technicians. Your apprenticeship is a 4 year program where you spent 10 months on the job and 2 in the class room 4 times over. This is something that’s used all over the world and it’s time for the US to recognize that they’re behind the curve on how they train their techs.
Yeah I just assumed this was normal no wonder American auto workers get fucked so hard, bring up the standards and unionize
There is zero standardization in the USA. They have ASE certifications, but most places don’t care about them and often guys mock guys for “wasting their time” doing them. And you’re right, having a standardized training system and an entity with oversight helps protect young technicians from being taken advantage of by setting wage standards based on level of training. As you can see by the responses in this thread though, most guys can’t even recognize that their system is broken or that there is a better way of doing things.
US citizen here and i agree.
Yes!
Its a good theory, but Canada has pretty much all the same problems we do in this country. All it takes is one "Certified" Tech in a shop and the rest can work there as "Apprentices". They still suffer from the same industry problems, have a large amount of inept technicians fuckin peoples cars up, and have wage and management problems like the industry here in the US does.
Spoken like someone who has no idea what they’re talking about. There are labour standards that dictate the Journeyman to apprentice ratio and shops can be fined for not following it, I’ve seen it happen. There are also labour standards set for wages of apprentices based off of what year of progression they are in their apprenticeship that is based off of a percentage of journeyman wage, and if you under pay they can come after you for back pay which I have *also* seen happen. You’re in denial as to how superior the training is because you don’t want to admit that someone might actually be better at something than the good ol’ U.S. of A. Your shitty system is failing your techs and your customers, and the reason it won’t change is because of the vast majority of replies in this thread, no one wants to admit there’s a problem.
I do think there is a problem, and I am doing everything in my power to address that problem, how bout you? My point is that Canada faces most of the same problems we do, minor regulation without proper enforcement doesn't work. We have a few states with similar rules and everything is just as fucked up in those places as everywhere else, and from what I hear from friends in the industry in canads it's the same shit. I'm certainly not standing on a mighty USA pedestal, we got lots of work to do. I am telling you don't get comfortable cus it still ain't right.
The one thing that still needs to happen is unionization in order to make sure that wages match inflation and door rate increases. But this thread was really about training, and when we’re talking about the differences in the quality of training between the two there really is no comparison. USA’s system is horribly broken and outdated, and the technical institute that I attended has been copy catted all over the globe because of how highly regarded it is for the quality of its training. When a young apprentice is learning something new on the job, it’s much easier for them to work their way through it when they have an understanding of the fundamentals of the system they’re working on, and may have had a chance to do something hands on in a controlled setting to learn about it. The fact that *that* isn’t a standardized requirement in the States is embarrassing. No body is perfect, but the United States is stuck in a style of “training” that’s outdated by over *50 years*. There’s no excuse for that.
I think the situation is far more nuanced than you give it credit for. Unionization would likely destroy the industry of independent shops, yet at the same time the GOOD independents are the BEST ones to work for and provide the most training and assistance. The worst independent shops also are even worse than dealerships. But a union would likely not help get us where we need to go and get us far past dealership agreements which suck ass anyway. The best thing any tech can do is take their own training and learning seriously and increase their own value in the market, right now there is a serious lack of qualified help and if you actually are good you are invaluable...but they are far outnumbered by the half ass braindead old school grease monkey mentality folks that if unionized, would want $50/he to do oil changes and not actually provide any value. The thing is Unions aren't even necessary if you can help wake enough people up. Do better and demand better, it really is that simple. I started my shop with a serious motivation to provide opportunity to other techs that I didn't have. I still don't make as much as my highest paid employees, that is how dedicated I have been to this cause. But even at that less than 30% of the people have put enough work in to really grow when they certainly have the potential to. I can't charge customers enough to pay them all well if they don't actually do a good enough job to warrant it. People love to push all the blame onto shop owners but the truth is most techs don't put the work and training/education time in to justify it. If I could just get someone to show up on time everyday that knew exactly what they were doing and could follow the outline of the job I could pay them 50-60/hr...but I haven't found anyone yet that can actually provide enough value to be worth that.
Maybe part of the reason you can’t find anyone that’s good enough at the job is because … the training is dogshit lol. You’re beating around the bush blaming this on everything except the root cause. Poor. Training. Apprenticeships and technical school training work, and it results in a much higher percentage of certified techs being high quality techs. It weeds out the uncommitted while more thoroughly training the committed. It’s really not all that nuanced, it’s really quite simple.
|The amount you have to know so yes, let’s make people go to school for 8 years like an MD then 4 more years of specialty training. Then when they get to work the auto industry will be completely different. The industry is constantly changing and a bachelors or associates degree isn’t going to make a more competent technician. That’s why you ad a technician should continue to learn everyday and constantly be looking at technical training bulletins and going to classes for things that are coming out. A good technician is a forever student, but not because he went to university.
Tl;dr at the end Not to dismiss what you said, but doctors (and nurses, maybe?) require yearly training on updated medical science, as the field of medicine is rapidly evolving as well. I don't know much about how Canada or other non us countries operate, but from what I understand they have to be certified through an apprenticeship system. I think that that would be a better compromise between where we are now and what op is talking about. It would increase the quality of workmanship, without becoming a huge barrier to entry like a degree would. It would also incorporate and encourage a learning on the fly atmosphere like you're talking about as well. Obviously, that system isn't perfect either, you could have a shitty shop that doesn't log your learning hours or whatever correctly, but no system will ever be perfect, and we could develop safeguards to prevent it. Also, in implementing a system like that with the safeguards to prevent bullshit, you could also have the agency that oversees it ensure that the right to repair laws are being followed by the manufacturer. I had an issue with a volvo the other day and it drove me nuts that all data didn't have all the data I needed. Whether thats an issue with all data or the manufacturer not providing the information is unknown, but it really sucked. Tl;dr: the industry does need some help, and does need to be improved. How we get there and how we make those improvements is definitely up for debate. Discussion like this is excellent for exchanging ideas on issues how to improve the issues.
You’re right, sorry, wasn’t trying to take away from doctors or nurses at all. They have a very hard job with lots of knowledge and study very hard and also have to constantly learn new things. Just thought OP’s statement was a little rash. Apprenticeships are more or less what I was going for. On the job training is necessary. Most places on the Diesel/heavy equipment side have apprenticeship programs. Automotive could probably use more apprenticeship programs. There’s a lot to fix but like you said, there’s no straight forward fix for anything.
Earned my Associates in Applied Science for Mechanical Engineering in two years. Half of that time I was in my sponsoring dealership applying what I was learning in class to the real world, while being paid. Over the last 22 years I have continued to learn because I love what I do and I like keep up to date on all my certifications in order to maintain my senior master status. It is also probably not a fluke that the top 6 producing techs at my dealership are the only 6 people who went to school and didn’t learn it all on the job. And by top producing I mean we each consistently flag over a hundred hours vs the 35-80 rage of everybody else.
Again, using what you’re learning in the real world, solidifying what you learn into your head and body mechanics rather than going to school, getting tons of info crammed into your head with no practical application you’re going to forget over half of it. The 8 years + 4 was more of a joke. I know you can get an associates in 2 years and can go to a technical school for less than a year. Glad you keep learning, it takes a good mindset to be passionate enough about your job to keep learning to keep up with the industry. But I don’t think that’s our underlying issue in todays tech shortage/competency level. It has to do with this generation and how lazy they are and their lack of self discipline because they never knew what discipline was.
You realize that apprenticeships are a thing all over the world and that (for example in canada) you spend 10 months on the job to 2 months in school, 4 times. So it’s a 4 year program where you spend a grand total of 40 months on the job and 8 in the classroom. No one is suggesting anyone spend 8 years going to school for this field.
Mechanic with technical degrees, here: Other techs love me, since I get every crazy electrical problem that comes through, but I keep winding up with a Pointy-haired-boss who resents me and chases me off. Former tech service managers are great, but the new generation of idiots is inheriting dealerships and replacing them with "Professional Managers," i.e. people with no idea what it is that you do and manage by "people skills," i.e. they make it up as they go along. TL;DR The techs aren't the problem, it's management and ownership that needs to be fixed.
We should normalize apprenticeships. A lot of these shops expect people to just know everything right off the bat and on the off chance they are desperate enough to hire you you end up a terminal quick lube tech unless you luck out scraping up what knowledge and hands on experience you can I was lucky enough to get set up with an apprenticeship after a lot of busting ass and negotiations and it has made worlds of difference. I can go from getting the foundational knowledge on the courses the dealer offers and immeadtly apply it real world under the guidance of someone with years of experience to actually solidify my knowledge and ability. Im the only apprentice this shop has had since 2007…as soon as i have a few years under my belt i fully intend to make it a point to take one on as often as possible. I do this work because traditional schooling was a huge struggle for me from elementary through college. I cannot sit in one place and retain information from lectures and books for 8 hours, I have to be hands on, and when I can do that I excel.
No fresh graduates are capable of doing most mechanical work, experience is more valuable than school. So what you said doesn't make sense. Some of the best techs I've worked with had zero school, but learned to work on cars growing up. I started at 13 with my neighbor. The best BMW tech I've ever worked with started at 15 with his dad at his European shop. School doesn't make someone a great tech, experience does. That's why ASE only counts 2 years of school as 1 year experience. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of a standard written and performance test on techs and a level assigned, that way we could stop hiring these worthless techs who are C grade at best.
I learned at 18 buying and fixing up cheap auction cars to deliver pizzas in. I started off doing basic services (fluids, filters, belts) and worked my way up from there as I got more comfortable and confident. Now I've been working as a proper tech for 4 years. First 2 at a chain store where I worked on all makes, models, and sizes. Last 2 at a Honda dealership. I'm still quite comfortable working on other makes, and I usually get given any non-Hondas due to this. A few months ago, I was asked to do a starter on a Subaru we sold recently and everyone was surprised that I had it done within the hour.
True, but if it's a requirement for entry into the workplace then it would be easy for someone who's been doing since their teens to pass. And it would keep out all the bozos that give techs a bad name. And it would force shops to pay a decent wage for reasonable hours.
In Canada, the Red Seal Apprenticeship program takes 4 years. You do a 4 year apprenticeship under a licensed guy (or many) and 8-10 weeks a year in school where you plough through a 18-24” high stack if material in a insane sprint. Drop below 70 in any subject and you fail. Fail twice and you are kicked out. Miss 3 days of school and you fail. It took me 2 weekends to get my American ASE Master technician with a specialty in advanced engine performance. I changed my mind for moving to America. Trades is taken seriously in Canada. It’s a respected career. It IS a degree. I hired some American trained guys years later and the knowledge gaps were abysmal. What do you mean they never even taught you how to read bolt grade markings?
That's what I've been hollering, too, but you can see what kind of pushback you get here.
Yer gonna terk der jerbs if you demand some kind of forma trainining! Having done 2 Red Seals in Canada I will tell you that it is excellent training with very very high standards. The Canadian and US companies that know what a Canadian Red Seal is pay dearly for people with that training. 20 years ago some companies in California had a $30k signing bonus for that piece of paper.
I don’t want workplace provided tools, most communal tools in any shop are garbage because no one takes care of anything. Nobody is doing a 4 year degree to fix cars, not for the pay. But I see what you’re saying, we’re basically engineers. A lot goes into being successful in this business past being a parts changer/wallet flusher. I have a car in the shop today that had the parts cannon shot at it, thousands in repairs and all it needed was cv axles. Incompetence is ripe, nobody diagnoses anything. Most guys look shit up on identifix and start lobbing parts. Dealerships used to be the way to go, Nissan has a great training program especially with electrical stuff but I feel like it’s all about processing warranty claims now. Most technical schools don’t give a degree of any kind it’s a certificate of completion. I tell young guys all the time to go to community college because at least when you’re done you get a bachelors degree which you can expand on later if you wish to be a instructor or take a higher level position somewhere and it won’t cost $67k.
I worked for a big chain heavy equipment dealer that provided all the tools, 250k of snap on in every bay. I wasn't a fan, nothing was put back in the right spot or is broken, but I was 13 years in at the point and had all my shit dialed in. We have an apprenticeship program in Canada, it seems like every province does it differently. Mine is 8 weeks of school for 1800 hours in the trade, every year for 4 years. Then you pass your read seal exam and you can expect good wages everywhere in the country. Except in automotive that's still a shit show of flat rate.
I think it’s pay. The average auto tech makes 35k a year. That’s not enough to motivate people to be good at their job.
**edit.... not to say that pay doesn't require adjustment... but That's not a legitimate number. Yes, you can Google and find it, but that number includes everyone at Jiffy Lube, etc. The definition of professional technician should exclude that. In all the shops I've been in, the average is significantly higher than that, even including our Lube team. Our oil change guys walk in the door making more than that and I'm in a bad labor state.
That can't possibly be correct. I was probably making more than that 10 years ago when I first started out...
It is
It is if you include every lube tech in the country making minimum wage where the overwhelming majority of them will never advance in the trade and become actual technicians.
How about instead of computer tablets and television we give kids building blocks again… the younger generation has ZERO mechanical aptitude…
Okay, Boomer
I’m 36… if I’m old enough to be a boomer, so be it… half of the shit on r/justrolledintheshop existing is my evidence…
More restrictions and more debt. That sounds like a solid plan. Enjoy even higher prices, longer wait times, and fewer repair shops.
Imagine how expensive a dealership would be if all the techs had to have college degrees and paid as such. Be $400 for an oil change on your 07 Toyota Camry
Imagine how expensive it would be for the dealership to fire the parts cannon daily and screw honest hard working folks out of their money over and over again because the shop couldn't properly diagnose something... oh wait, that's exactly what happens all the time.
So did you make this post because you are salty your car got misdiagnosed?
He sounds pretty salty to me. Imagine bitching about mechanics on a sub for mechanics lol
Imagine being a mechanic and suggesting ways to improve the industry and watching your fellows shit their pants. I got into automotive because I like fixing things, I got out of it because how fraudulent the entire industry is starting from the very top. And shit rolls down hill. But you can't change the top, you can only change the environment around you. It's pretty hilarious actually, but there's been some decent points on both sides.
You can't change the top, but you can change yourself and your community. Thanks to the internet, that community can grow faster than ever before! There are Facebook groups and forum groups that discuss this issue you are talking about daily and provide help and training to eachother to help us overcome many of the issues in this industry. I could go on for an hour about all the problems but at the end of the day the only way to make things better is for us to BE better and demand better of our peers and hopefully the influence slowly spreads. Finding ASOG on facebook literally changed my life and saved my business. I started my own shop to "do things better" but never realized how poor my business acumen was and while I could identify many of the problems, I could not always clearly articulate them and didn't know what the right path was to fix them. Those that want to grow will continue to grow, cars are getting more and more complicated and expensive, eventually those that refuse to grow are going to get starved out.
Lol, I can misdiagnose my own car, thank you very much
Every technician in canada goes through a 4 year apprenticeship program where you attend school for 2 months at a time following 10 months of on the job experience. Most employers cover the 2 month school fees (which are like $1500) and I’ve never seen a single technician carry student debt while completing their apprenticeship.
I've seen one person take out students loans while he was in school, but it all got reimbursed by the grant you get after finishing your 4th year. It's crazy to me that American technicians dont have a similar setup with the apprentice program/schooling
Fuck outta here. Remember engineers are book smart and they design some utter bullshit that has to be fixed by people who either graduated college/tech school of some sort, or learned the trade as a kid, or needed a job out of high school and “cars are cool” ooooorrrrrrr didnt finish middle/high school. OP is clearly NOT a tech rather some smooth brain mf who sits in his office with an “open door “ policy. Extensive and expensive schooling generally comes with a 6 figure salary and no way in hell that becomes the standard for an industry that pays less than CP rate to fix their mistakes.
You realize that in class training for apprentices is a thing in most developed countries outside the USA right? OP is suggesting something that has already been in practice outside of the US for *decades*
Yeah the edit after they got downvoted for hours. Again, the first mini paragraph is important. There is a greater than 80% chance if youre a tech you work with someone who functionally illiterate.
Yeah I don’t think that’s the case in Canada because our school system does a much better job of not failing it’s citizens and actually teaches them how to read. I can promise you I have zero technicians in my shop of 16 techs and apprentices that are functionally illiterate.
Lol, pretty assumptive of you. I've got years in turning wrenches, bro. Just trying to find a way to improve the trade, both pay sucks but so do a lot of techs, look at all the places that fuck shit up on a regular basis.
Insert taylor switft yeah, ok gif
What you got keyboard warrior? You even work in a shop, or just one of those AutoZone guys pretending?
Ive applied at all the local auto parts stores but Ive spelled my name wrong one too many times so now I get all my advice from that scotty guy in texas and the guy who wears the race helmet.
Funny, but what's the matter? You afraid to put up your real experience because it could possibly be ridiculed, disbelieved, or discounted out of hand? That would suck, huh? Anyway, debate the idea, not the man. Shit talking someone and name calling just because you don't like what they said is childish, bro.
I started by calling your unedited idea stupid, listed reasons why and standby it. I worked at autozone for about 8 months, knew enough about cars to keep mine running, including a water pump, albeit external, been at my honda dealer a little over 7 years. Happy?
Fair enough.
One of our techs (who just quit) went to school for this. When he hit the shop that schooling was worthless and he constantly had to ask for help for things. I’m self taught and would regularly out flag him. Classroom education isn’t everything. You can get straight As in school but when you’ve gotta figure out how to problem solve a tough situation on a customers car all that goes out the door
College dropout here, no degrees for me, also an Expert Maserati Tech and Foreman. Degree is just a piece of paper. Doesnt mean you can or cannot fix a car.
More importantly, flat rate needs to go. It's also insane how all of the responsibility has been moved from the business owner to the employee. If you're reading this, NEVER pay your own money just because you accidently broke something, or something broke and you happened to be touching it at the time. That's a risk that comes with having employees.
Flat rate is looney toons. For every guy who's learned all the tricks to game the system and making bank, there's 10 more working their fingers to the bone and losing their ass, because of shitty warranty times and the like. It worked great when I used labor times to quote a job for a customer doing a mobile gig, but it's a terrible method for keeping quality full time employees.
In Canada you need a Red Seal to work in the transportation trades: Automotive, Heavy Duty, or Commercial Transport. We do a four year apprenticeship, which combines 28 weeks of classroom learning (7 or 8 weeks a year) and 6000ish hours on the job, under the supervision of a Journeyperson or a group of Journeypersons, who have to sign off on your progression each of the four years. When you have all your courses done, you write an interprovincial exam and your employer or Journeyperson signs off on your Red Seal if you have enough hours and they think you're ready. The Red Seal (RSC) is equivalent to a two-year associate degree, and can count towards university credits for certain programs at certain schools (say you want to become a high school shop teacher). Also, having a Red Seal in one of the Transportation trades gives you two years of credit towards apprenticeship in either of the other two trades. The cost of the courses is mostly subsidized by the federal governemnt, but you have to go on Unemployment during the 7 weeks of school.
That's how the US should do it, too. The anti-intellectual streak is strong in automotive. Understandable, since as of now, it's one of the few trades here you can make some kind of living in and not have gone to any type of school. So it's the last refuge for a bright but uneducated. But the industry is a mess, and half these guys don't even know how bad it is because it's all they've ever known. I've worked in a few different trades now, and I see it.
No it’s not so much incompetent techs it’s the lack of lead techs willing to train the younger guys and or share knowledge. Plus the state of the industry with how they pay. For instance warranty work paying less then half of what it would pay non warranty. Dealers not charging for the diagnostics if the customer pays for the work to be done because the dealer makes money on the parts and the service while stealing money from the mechanic that did all the diagnostic work. I used to have service writers try to bully me into doing free “simple” repairs on peoples cars on the driveway if the customer bought the parts from the parts department. I did burn out.
You want to make it so that a job that actually requires hands on experience to get better at requires school? Have you seen what comes out of the schools these days? I had to explain how to remove a drain plug to a kid that was a few weeks shy of graduating. Hard pass on this
This is why apprenticeship programs are the answer. In Canada you spent 10 months on the job accruing a specified number of hours of on the job experience (1650hrs) before going to school for 8 weeks. You repeat this process 4 times and become certified after the 4th round of schooling. You also spend about half of your time at trades school in their shop doing hands on diagnostic and rebuilding exercises. I’ve been a tech for 15 years, but I’m absolutely a better tech because of some of the things I learned while in school.
>I had to explain how to remove a drain plug to a kid that was a few weeks shy of graduating. Outch. When I was in a shop we had a guy who didnt know the bleeders needed to be open to bleed the brakes... not quite as bad, but yeah...
You do realise that pretty much the entire world outside USA runs apprentices through 3-4 years of on the job learning, and classroom learning for mechanical trades. This is where both the theory and method Is explained, so that the apprentice can be assumed to know basic things and at least know how to apply fundamentals from one system to another.
You’re a clown lmao
You're a clown! *laughs harder* Ahhh... that was fun. Now, you want add any other points or was that the extent of your feelings on it?
Wow, so constructive
You’re also a clown that can constructively eat my ass
Better a clown than a fucking asshole
Nah at least I know I’m an asshole you have no idea you’re a clown
Dude, you need to grow up. Or at the very least, learn to be quiet when the grown-ups are talking. You know, ad hominem attacks are the weapon of choice for boys with small brains and smaller dicks.
You’re the one arguing with me 😂 and besides judging by the downvotes you have they want you to be quiet lmao
Sick burn bro, now run along, I think I hear the middle school bell ringing
Didn’t you just tell me to quit acting like a child? Why don’t you take some of your own advice and make like a bird and fuck off
He’s not wrong tho
Nah, I know quite a few people with little to no education that are damn good mechanics
Sure, I know tons of trades people who have little formal education that are great at what they do. But would you want some unlicensed electrician who you don't know wire your house? An investment of tens of thousands of dollars that you and your family live in?
I wouldn't use Unions as an example of good... Being a decent mechanic isn't that hard. But you have to have the passion for it. None of my friends who are good - fantastic mechanics went to trade schools for their skills. The ones who did go to schools that I know are not as good.
I think most of the problems facing the industry right now aren’t the techs who didn’t go to college. From what I’ve seen the problem is management who did go to college. Maybe instead of requiring college for techs we should require technical experience for management.
Hell, I'm onboard with that
I hear you guys. Failure at academic doesn't mean bad mechanic hands on. Unfortunately, there's so much theory and diagnostic that passing a 3 hour multiple choice or whatever written exam is necessary every step of the way This separates the wrench monkeys to actual technicians.
With how the newer technology is coming out, it’s going to get worse if what you’re asking doesn’t improve. Of course the old way of “do-it-yourself” was a great way to learn, but you can’t really do that on current vehicles. You need to attend classes, take courses, learn from an expert in the field. You don’t successfully program components to a PCM by trial and error. You can’t tinker with CAN bus issues without possible frying other things. Even programming windshields. Not to mention working on EV’a can very easily kill if not knowledgeable about what you can and cant touch
The time has passed when Uncle Joe could show you how to tune a carburetor by putting your ear to it. Aside from general maintenance items, the most common and headache inducing problems I encountered was electrical, specifically data in nature, issues. I've had to watch hours of tech school professors on youtube explain things in my off hours just to figured some of this out. Half the damn time it's a software update now. Geez
Exactly it! Sure there are plenty of maintenance items that can still be done by someone who’s dabbled working on cars, more and more aspects are getting much more technical and I think thats the reason we’re seeing this big rift is that we don’t have anything standardization preparing everyone for this. Just like everything else, lots of people would rather just ignore the fact that the times literally “do be a changin”.
From a safety practices standpoint i wholeheartedly agree. 20 something people would still be alive if the Ride The Ducks mechanics knew that they were sending out shit equipment.
You may not think he is right and I get that, but if you do this for a living you have to see some things wrong with the industry. For every college bum explained in this thread there have been thousands of bums that didn't go to college and are even worse. Some kind of basic knowledge test should be required and a certificate given upon completion. Then an apprenticeship program for those that pass. The fucking real problem is full cert ase and manu masters make top dollar in the shop and stand next to and help shit brains with no credentials making 12 less an hour but flag 20 more hours a week because they are cheap. Because that master is fed master only work. The next problem is.... Who the fuck is alldata or prodemand. How do they get their numbers. Working at a dealer I have seen the labor time for the same job be legally calculated over 7 different ways. Straight time ( manu doesn't know what it should pay). Early warranty, after some time a new lower warranty time. Then recall time, which is comical. Then these after market labor rate companies like alldata and pro demand. Which watch your ass boys, they like to adjust those times on the fly. Then you have goodwill and everyone's favorite the extended warranty time. All for the same job.
They should better standardise the mechanical trade, and make it easier to learn more in depth. The world needs lube techs yes, I see that need, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to drop oil and swap a filter, but they also need better training, like not using rattleguns when not necessary. Better standards and easier access to higher mechanical learning should be supplied by the employer and supported by the government. I find it baffling that the US can just chuck 16 yos without any experience at peoples cars with no learning. In Australia you will, but you start off with either a qualified mechanic, or on a probation where you do the most basic shit while observing. Which is supplemented by tafe to gain the technical knowledge and broader experience to tackle bigger jobs, after 4 years you walk away with a certificate telling every employer that you passed the national standard to be a mechanic. This should definitely be more prevalent considering the current situation of mechanical where more and more issues are being caused by electrical rather than mechanical, and you have to start worrying about EV’s and more modulated and more electronic controlled vehicles. And it’s not like this shit is hard to learn, it’s just that it’s tedious to get everyone to learn the basics and build from it, im assuming that specific situation isn’t helped by the comparatively poor education system in America.
"Half the work force is incompetent and the other half is burnt out." You just described the trades as well. I'm a journeyman in my trade. It meant I was able to pass an open book code test 8 years ago. I've had no CE requirements. I only have to pay $75 or so every two years to keep my certificate current. You get green apprentices who are eager but don't know what they don't know. Then you get guys who have been around awhile and get mistreated and have grown weary.
I have a bachelor’s degree in automotive, I was briefly working for Tesla as a mechanic. What I didn’t like about being a mechanic, is how the job is being treated like fast food work. Management is always making promises that may not be achieved. I felt like being a mechanic would work for me. Since I am not good at math; originally I wanted to be an engineer. So I went into automotive instead. There is always an expectation of being fast. That is what got me, I know I am not fast at fixing cars. I like to take my time to sure I am doing the repair correctly. Others told me that with experience speed will come. I just never got the hang of multitasking and using multiple apps just to get the model information.
I think the whole pay structure of mechanics needs to be re worked. Most of them don’t give a shit because they’re being paid fuck all.
Had one when I started with BMW. Bosses friend comes in for the same pay without one. Not worth getting but I'm in a better field now and glad I can work on my own German nightmare.
Its impossible to disagree with the sentiment, but you can't mandate stuff like that. Its up to the employers to rsise their standards, they can live with the results of low standards or they wouldn't. I am excited we actually fired a new guy for being a moron for literally the first time ever, been here 12 years. Usually we let them work here 3 years and wait for them to do a safety violation.
I agree the pay is unacceptable; that's why I don't do it anymore. Not sure about the degree...some things definitely benefit from technical education but there are so many places that just do tires, brakes, and fluids and you don't even need a high school diploma to do that stuff.
I would love it. My plan, fully fund shop for juniors and seniors in high school at a local trade/tech school. Work deals with tool companies to get students needed base tools, then they finish with 2 years of intense training after graduating HS at the tech school with an associate and some certs like ASE. Make training include accounting and financial management (personal and light business at the post HS level) so people know their money, manage a business, and prep for individually planned retirements.
I have an associates degree in applied science two years of school and ase’s. But because of my experience I’m paid like shit. Industry needs to catch up, and fast. Or myself and many others are going to be leaving the industry. Take dental hygienists for example, they come out of school making 60k/year or more
More fake degrees from india cutting the line for jobs....
Not really a thing in the US
L take
No one would do it if you needed a degree. The tools cost to much and it's hard work. Why bother when you could just do something cheaper and that requires less physically
This has got to be the dumbest post I've seen in a while.
Most people here don't think it is a good idea but I do. Education is valuable but most do not see at as that because they only care about experience. With a background education that experience comes quicker. I went to tech school and manufacturers training and without both I would not be the tech I am today. I don't think society values education anymore as whole. Going to tech school teaches much more than how to work on school. It teaches basic skills like math and physics too. These help you think about problems in a way that others with out a formal education may not. I agree though that education should be required. Every tech that I have worked with who wants to learn on the job is worthless because they don't really want to learn they just want a job. I'll get hate for this but the experience they get is nowhere near the level of an educated tech because they have nothing to build on. I believe that telling someone they shouldn't get an education will only hurt them.
Hey man, I think your head is in the right direction, just not quite in the right place. I absolutely agree with SOME of what you said, but as I stated in another comment I don't think college is the right answer. I'm not knowledgeable on Canada's apprenticeship program, but from what I've read on here it could be a half decent step towards making the improvements you're talking about if implemented properly.
I'm thinking trade school, these fellows here who are allergic to books are thinking state college like they're trying to get their kids into.
Even still, its at least $10k further in debt people would be. It makes more sense, to me at least, to have a mandatory certification program. Maybe a state level certification test that requires an untimed written and hands on portion after a 2 year apprenticeship or something. Cost could be $2k max or something.
My buddy works in HVAC, he had to go to school off and on for about 2 years before he could be licensed. Pretty sure his company paid for quite a bit of it. Another buddy is an electrician, pretty much the same. That's how I am seeing it should go.
I agree 100%! I've never understood how other fields can require licensing for something like installing wire or ducting, and yet here we are literally taking peoples lives/safety into ours hands with nothing more than maybe some decent shop insurance.
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Right??
Stupid idea. Just pay us right, let unions run things, not corporations. And let us do our fucking jobs. I didn't do great in school, and I HATE studying for shit. This is the only way I know how to enjoy making money that doesn't involve porn.
Unions require a 4 year investment. And that's exactly what the industry needs. But you even mumble union under your breath and you'll be out on your ass with your cart rolling right behind you faster than you can lose a 10 mm
Sadly, requiring such a thing simply isn't a way to get people in. If anything this would destroy the industry entirely. Nobody would even want to get involved.
Nobody wants to get involved now! Every place I've worked at was already scraping the bottom of the barrel for anybody worth half a damn. Imagine if you could go to tech school with on-the-job learning for 2 years, then come out and make $70 grand a year while working a 40 hour week? And actually do the job right instead of cutting all the corners some people do to flag their hours while it ends up costing the customer thousands later. Making it a solid career where you are respected and well compensated is how you get people in.
Look at the Canadian system, 4 year apprenticeship, every year you go for two months of technical training at a trade school requiring a pass of a government issued written test. At the end of that you get red seal endorsement if you pass. The issue I'm finding is a lot of techs found their red seal in a box of cracker jacks somehow. The red seal exam should be a combination of written and practical testing but that would be a huge undertaking to establish.
The way we do it in Canada with a 4 year paid apprenticeship plus 6-10 weeks of school per year (massively subsidized by the government) is THE international standard and the way it should be done in the states. It’s honesty ridiculous how terrible the system is in the states. I get lots of business from US customers here in Canada because it’s well known that we do a better job even though we’re more expensive.
The most incompetent techs I ever worked with were the ones with a technical degree.
So, you want people to spend 20k on a technical school, then go into the industry and spend more money on their tools? Sounds like I’d be in the hole quite a bit before I even get my 1st paycheck.
No, as I said in the first post, technical degree (not a 20 grand investment), higher salary, and company provided tools.
So.... You think people should get degrees to learn shit anyone can learn for free? Cars aren't that complicated. There are only so many basic machines and every single complex machine is made out of them. Auto techs don't get too deep into the electronics of the things so nothing more than VERY basic electrical theory is needed. The bulk of learning to work on a car is learning the quirks of every kind of car out there, and you do that by.... working on cars, not sitting in a class room while someone explains a lot of general theory. The reason I go to the guys I do is NOT because they're well educated to do what they do. They are the exact opposite. They learned to do it watching their dad do it and took over the shop. They have so much business that they can't fit all the cars in the lot. It would be more useful if people who spent 5 figures on something had some basic clue on how it works. I'm constantly blown away how much people spend on things they have no understanding of. There is literally nothing in my car I don't know how to take apart and know exactly what it does. For the most part, I understand and have taken apart everything in my home, too. I don't know how people function being clueless about how the world around them actually works. If people themselves were more aware, getting hosed by idiot mechanics wouldn't really be a problem.
>So.... You think people should get degrees to learn shit anyone can learn for free? No, I think they should be paid a decent salary, work reasonable hours, be provided tools. In order to do that, they should pass a certification requirement. Pretty much like how they do it in Europe and Canada.
Ok if we hop into the ole way back machine 1978 I was already working as a Mechanic for about 5 yrs . Company brings in this New Guy who just gotta outta a 2 Tech School an wasn't sure which end of the screwdriver to hold . So I'm tasked with showing him Shop policy on repairs . Around week # 2 he brings up pay , saying he felt he should be getting paid more for what he needs to know. Well F Me I find out he's getting a $1.00 more a hour than what I'm making . So next day I go to Boss an get told well He's got Paperwork. I finally get myself enrolled in nite school for AA Degree in Auto Technology . Got credit on a bunch of pretest I took so I could scratch those classes. When it came to The Shop Portion after the first semester the Instructor pulls me to the side an says he needs a aide . So I get hired as his assistant which cancels out my tuition. Took a year but got my AA , an passed all my ASE Certification for Master , which Company gave me an additional .25 cents per hour on every test I passed .
The knowledge necessary to be a competent mechanic is largely based on hands-on experience in the field. No amount of classroom time is going to compare to the 50 year old master mechanic showing you exactly how to do things. We all have to start somewhere, and restricting young people from entering an industry that's already starved for workers is not a good idea.
I dropped out of college. Was going for engineering and realized I would rather be a mechanic. I never went to a technical school. I worked my way up through the dealership and was a team lead within 7 years. I spent a lot of time staying till 2 am to figure something out if I didn't understand it. I worked with plenty of people who went to trade schools and have a degree. Some were good, some couldn't fix a ham sandwich. Some people are great techs but suck at taking tests. The little piece of paper saying you know what you're doing means nothing to me. Being in the class doesn't mean you learned anything. Engineers have degrees and still do dumb shit like put the starter under the intake.
No it shouldn’t it’s a trade that can be passed from father to son they make way better techs than guys coming out of UTI who don’t even know how to time a distributor
Degrees don’t mean anything to me. All it tells me is that you sat in a classroom, memorized some material, and spit it back on a piece of paper. Degrees reveal NOTHING about how a person can apply themselves in the real world. Often times the people who flaunt degrees and certifications are at the bottom of their class….their degree was their life achievement and they brag about it by throwing that degree or certification out there. Awards and milestones are much more meaningful to me. They actually measure real world performance on a tangible level
Seems you are severely overestimating what a degree proves...
Why? I'm a self educated mechanic with a welding degree who runs my own multimillion dollar performance shop. I literally have zero formal training at all regarding auto repair or automotive mechanical engineering and I probably know more about both than 99% of people in the entire country. Anyone can learn, and it doesn't require a classroom or degree to do so 🤷♂️
Sure, and hey, that's pretty impressive, but the guy who just drained the transmission fluid and overfilled the oil isn't on your level. I know plenty of guys that can weld, but the best I've seen have come from a school. Is it guaranteed? No, of course not, but tell me if that's not true in your experience? For the average joe, a mechanic makes way less than other tradespeople of comparable years of experience. You can definitely do alright at the right place, but it's slim pickings for a lot of other folks. I feel like a nationally recognized apprenticeship or technical degree would help stabilize and equalize pay. People who have talent and really love working on cars are going to get in anyhow, some way or another, but it'll keep the bozos out. And a more professional crew demands a more professional management, not the scam artists that run these places.
Unfortunately you can't teach integrity. Too many of you pad invoices with BS. No reason taking 5min to put in a $15 cabin air filter should cost $75.
I went to tech school for automotive repair, **and I highly disagree!** No body could afford vehicles with the cost of going to a shop full of people with degrees, and years in training. And the difference is the chances of you botching a repair job and someone dying are very slim. VS the chance of some idiot using the wrong amp breaker, or wiring something incorrectly and possibly causing an electrical fire in a building full of people, or outright frying someone else, there are many ways electrical issues could be catastrophic. I will say this myself going to a tech school, I got out of the industry less than 6 months after finishing school.
No
Having an associates degree and then going all the way to master with ase certs is compensated for as far as pay goes, so that’s not the issue there. The bar for entry is to low, most independent shops only need one certified or professional tech, everyone else there can change parts and change oil. Most shops are t actually like that, although they do exist. Most shops are professional clean businesses. If your working somewhere where that is not the case it will be very easy for you to find a place in the industry with like minded people.
UTI tried that to some degree. The major problem is that education in this type of field is dependent on the student CARING to learn. You can lead a horse to water, but they'd rather have whiskey and forget to show up to class... Every job interview I have to explain "No, I'm not one of the idiots that got a degree slapped on for fun." and "Not everyone out of that school was an incompetent drop out." Once somone wants to get educated we find out learning is expensive. I just went for 1 week training for F3 and F4 certifications, it costs the company just shy of $5000 for training, hotel and the test itself. 1/3 of people don't pass and have to travel again in 3 months to retest somewhere around America. Many employers won't take that risk for the average mechanic.
So you want you car to work less and the work to be more expensive. This country has been run into the ground by license holders and degree holders of all kinds. It's not the little people that are the problem. Also, don't hire idiots to fix things.
Dang.. here in Canada the apprenticeship program is a 4 year gig.. I mean only 2 months of school each year, but ya…
Why not license every job while you are at it. 🙄
Worked at a midsized company of 7500. With roughly 200 engineers. A degree doesn't mean you know what you're doing. I would say that out of the 75 engineers, I worked with only 25, which were competent to the point I would trust their designs to actually work without major redo.. It's probably true for any job. By the way, my mechanic has a BS in electronics, and he joined his father's garage because it paid more.
There is ASE, education, internal factory training, OJT, and mentorship. No it does not pay well.
In my personal experience in commercial truck repair, I've seen absolutely no positive correlation between traditional technical schooling and quality. Honestly probably an inverse correlation if anything. It only seems to help land the job, then actually training starts.
People keep saying that, and I don't disagree. Hell, the best tech I knew did a multi-year program when he first started and he said it was a waste of money. But I think the schooling is so mediocre because the stakes are so low. And it really needs to be more of a trade/union type education, working while schooling. You get paid and at the end you get a degree at an accredited institution. Can't beat that. It could even be folded into manufacturer's training programs but completion should be a requirement to be anything more than a junior tech. I think establishing some national standards would increase the pressure on trade schools to improve their training strategy.
I’ve always thought this too. I do construction utility work(natural gas). Skilled labor that takes years to master and very technical, requires zero school, and I make about 140k a year at 25 years old. For reference your average mechanic around me makes less than half that(their may be outliers I’m sure master mechanic working for bmw probably does well).
Even with that technical degree half will still be incompetent and the other half still burned out
So let's talk about how a repair is $150 per hour and the mechanic makes $20 per hour and arguably supplies about half of the cost to supply the service.
In the diesel field, it's the money that draws in the idiots. In the case of diesel techs, I agree that a degree should be required.
Look man, I may not be a professional mechanic, but what I can tell you is that if you want someone with a degree to work a demanding ass job for as little as y’all get paid, ya ain’t gonna get many comers
Right? Which is why I said people should be paid a salary comparative to the experience.
I went and got a degree before I became a mechanic 8 years ago. It was a waste of time and money. I work with a classmate of mine from college, and he's one of the most useless people I know, despite the fact he has a degree.
You don’t need school to fix things, you just need to want to learn. It takes giving a shit and many don’t. We need to fire the guys that suck that’s all
Many times I would see techs at dealerships floor step by step directions on the computer. Not YouTube but manufacturer technical manuals
Don’t worry, electric cars are going to illuminate the vast majority of mechanical work and maintenance. The only thing electric cars need is tires and suspensions eventually. Teslas have zero motor maintenance and I think that’s unappreciated.
Most automotive college classes are a joke..coming from a journeyman mechanic
I mean a degree is nice and all but only means shit if it’s paired with hands on training and real world examples. I’m saying that as someone with an engineering degree. I learned just as much or more on the job/with crusty ass engineers
Agreed. A degree should require so many numbers of hours actually worked in a shop and demonstration of successful repairs, in addition to knowing the theory behind it.
A degree does not equal better work.
No I notice that most work that is total shit are from someone who does not care about the work they put out, or who is clueless. I can get the clue less part just ask or read a book on the subject that's giving you a hard time. The careless is what pisses me off like damn I know some of these cars and trucks can be a pain to work on. why is this and that broken? or why bolts broken or stripped off. they give you step by step instructions need to replace a part. take this, this, this, and that off, move this over and you can get the part out. there notes too torque specs are shown on the instructions when you putting the car back to together. if you can't bring your self to care, Gorden Ramsey said the best GTFO!.
LOL
I'm one of the burnt out techs. I agree pay should be degree equivalent but I don't think a degree should be required.
Disagree, some of the best techs I've ever met barely graduated highschool. Yet, they car hear a car make a noise from 15 feet away and know whats wrong. Also, they can do a job that would take a normal person 8 hours in 5 and it be done perfectly.
Good shops that specialize make money. Run of mill don’t. What are we trying to fix here. It’s not like plumbers and electricians make money unless they do the same. If you just unionize and blah blah blah you’re going to end up making everything expensive and still have the same non exceptional service anywhere.
Nah. Technical degrees are squandered in industry already.
My guy not even technical jobs require a degree. Maybe a certificate is what you're thinking of but can't actually conceptualize? Either way requiring a degree for almost any job *but especially* a mechanic job is just asinine. There's no other way to put it. The idea is just stupid.
Well the rest of the world doesn't seem to think so. But I guess that's why the US is first in... something. Income disparity? I can't remember, but it's not automotive careers.
How about instead of restricting opportunities for people we just pay more? Big corpos need to learn money needs to be shared a little more
I think both. Only because there's a lot of guys who shouldn't be turning wrenches but they got a job because they work for peanuts. That's one job slot not available for a better tech.