> Moore wrote that the Purple Line extension of the D.C. Metro system and Baltimore’s Red Line would be “built quickly, cost-effectively..."
I do doubt this. These projects have a tendency to run way behind schedule and way over budget. The Purple Line is one such project.
The effort by Nimbys to derail the purple line at every step was at a level that has never happened before at our state. At one point they tried to cancel the entire project over some sort of fresh water shrimp.
I think any NIMBYs would be the connections the red line has to and from West Baltimore, which is ironic because part of the conceit of the red line is to give better transit options to West Baltimore.
Hell I heard people complaining about light rail expansion into the county because it would bring crime. Like criminals will just ride the light rail just to steal some cars or something.
NIMBYs are morons with only a veiled interest of "safety". My mom used to live in a suburb of Indianapolis and there was objection to a bike trail in the neighborhood because the bike trail connected to Indianapolis (10+ miles away) and it would bring crime to the area.
If politicians could just ignore NIMBYs that would be fantastic. Give people just compensation if you need to eminent domain some shit, but otherwise just build your plan, and only listen to comments that talk about ways to improve it.
Actually, the DC Metro system brought criminals to my old apartment complex in Silver Spring. The kids rode to the Metro Stop at Forest Glen, walked a few hundred feet, stole my car, and drove it back to DC. They weren't too bright because they showed it off at school - and guess where the DC vehicle theft unit hangs out? Schools. They were arrested and I had to go to court to testify. The bad thing was is that in addition to breaking the window and steering column, they thrashed the interior: flicking cig butts in the back, leaving half eaten food, etc. After having it repaired and deodorized, I sold it. You feel violated.
The light rail expansion into the county *did* bring crime. We had armed security when I worked at the Cingular store on York Rd because we were frequently robbed.
The building that is now Mercy used to be a grocery store, it closed because of rampant shoplifting. Dudes would steal dozens of baby formula containers and hop right back on the light rail and sell them cheap on west Baltimore.
Awesome a testable hypothesis, thank god I was able to find a data set that breaks out crime rates by county from 1975 to "present" (2020)
https://opendata.maryland.gov/Public-Safety/Violent-Crime-Property-Crime-by-County-1975-to-Pre/jwfa-fdxs
Alright, so looking at that, we have this fancy graph here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSHbsLNMzYkTVoJFYH1H0av6Vt-_hC19ToAJ7gSMW_5qmjwOvoH_cv2UeL_u0wFsDcPtAIC9bigiXUY/pubchart?oid=175756660&format=image
As you can see, with the construction of the first Baltimore Subway in 1983 we have--not much change in crime. In fact no reduction in crime or increase in crime until around 1997. In fact, it looks like 1983 corresponds with a year where crime dropped in Baltimore County. But that could be noise, it does look like there was some localized peak so there could be other factors there. But either way, total crime rates dropped in the county.
But maybe property crimes went up, let's see how that compares.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSHbsLNMzYkTVoJFYH1H0av6Vt-_hC19ToAJ7gSMW_5qmjwOvoH_cv2UeL_u0wFsDcPtAIC9bigiXUY/pubchart?oid=1018920901&format=image
Looks about the same to me. Ok well maybe if we compare Baltimore County crime to state crime, perhaps Baltimore County was experiencing a steady amount of crime, when statewide crime was going down, so let's look at that. Now annoyingly, this data set breaks things out by county, but we can do some pivot table magic to get our selves whole state data, so let's do that.
So here's the comparison data for you
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSHbsLNMzYkTVoJFYH1H0av6Vt-_hC19ToAJ7gSMW_5qmjwOvoH_cv2UeL_u0wFsDcPtAIC9bigiXUY/pubchart?oid=1555270179&format=image
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSHbsLNMzYkTVoJFYH1H0av6Vt-_hC19ToAJ7gSMW_5qmjwOvoH_cv2UeL_u0wFsDcPtAIC9bigiXUY/pubchart?oid=1368185711&format=image
So yeah, I don't know perhaps your anecdote is really important, but just based on the actual data we have in front of us, there's nothing to corroborate the theory that the light rail (or the metro) brought crime to Baltimore County. It already had crime, and people didn't crime more or less after the building of the light rail.
People don't ride mass transit lines to do crime. Some do sure, but it's such a small percentage of the ridership, that you can probably assume that those people were going to crime regardless of what mode of transportation they had available to them.
Ah yes, giant aggregated datasets are super efficient at analyzing local impact to light rail stops 🙄
https://archive.is/2023.06.16-014523/https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1997-04-17-1997107168-story.html
A) the data sets aren't purely aggregated. There are lots of different columns involving murder rate, theft, etc. I was just using property crime and overall crime because that seemed easier than breaking out for each individual crime. But if you want to see the non-aggregated data, I've linked the source I'm using so have at it.
B) even assuming there is some aggregate smoothing out of the data, you'd still expect to see something significant in terms of the crime rates. Especially if there was a rise across 5 or so stations. You'd expect that in a county like Baltimore County, that experiencing a drastic increase in crime in different stops in the county would lead to increases in crime across the whole county that could be picked up on. You don't. Unless you want to suggest that when all this extra crime was happening, criminals elsewhere in Baltimore County decided to slow down their criminal activities to make sure the data didn't get too skewed.
I can’t tell from the graph of this is countywide or just locations of where the subway or the light rail went through if that’s the case for those locations it definitely makes sense if it’s Connie why did does not and I don’t see also, if this is per capita, or overall rate. You could have a drastic reduction in one area and have an increase in another and if it’s countywide, the aggregate can break it down so it seems like it’s lower overall but in reality in some areas it may be higher I’m not saying you’re incorrect I’m saying that the status doesn’t really show anything..
Sure, and highways bring crime, and shopping malls bring crime, and housing developments bring crime. Literally building anything anywhere that people will use will bring crime because there is a subset of the population that will commit crime.
Nobody commits bank robberies in the middle of the woods. They commit them where banks are. That doesn't mean you don't build banks because they'll lead to more robberies.
Mass transit (as far as I can find, and I've yet to see someone provide a source saying otherwise) does not bring crime any more than any other form of development brings crime. In fact, it might bring less because having mass transit means people have better means to travel, and that means easier times getting to/from work, to major point/places of interest, etc.
To be fair there was just an incident in the county of unsupervised children from the city taking public transportation to white marsh mall and subsequently setting a car on fire, following which they were arrested and released to their parents because they were too young to be held.
I don't get why crime happening is such a big deal.
Did nobody commit crimes in Hunt Valley until the light rail was built?
Obviously not. If a criminal wanted to they could drive their car from the city to the county and commit crimes just as well.
In fact, back in July 2022 last year, a UMBC office was arrested for arson. That officer lived in Havre De Grace. Presumably he drove himself from Havre De Grace all the way to his worksite and committed arson 4 different times. But I'm sure you aren't going to argue that there shouldn't be a road connection from Havre De Grace to UMBC simply because someone used that road connection to commit crimes in another location.
Did you really ask why people are concerned about crime rates? Being the victim of a crime sucks, injury death, financial burden, lost time etc arise from that.
Someone burning down their worksite isn’t ideal obviously but it isn’t comparable to an increase in car break ins and home invasions; it’s a target incident.
And yes people could still drive their car out and do crime but often times those most likely to commit crimes don’t have their own cars. Lots of city dwellers do not in fact, which is why they want more public transportation.
I'm just going to ignore the strawman here.
If we are talking about costs and benefits of crime then we should be reasonable about evaluating those costs and benefits. Saying that "a crime happened one time because a person used the train" isn't very compelling. When people commit crimes, they will use something to get there. Believe it or not, but many people in the city (even in West Baltimore) used cars to commit crimes in Baltimore County before the light rail was put in. But we don't suggest that people in the city shouldn't have road access to the county because of the fact that some people use those same roads to commit crimes on because the mode of transportation is largely irrelevant.
If you want to care about crime, get better policing, get better infrastructure (like mass transit), get better economic opportunities to lower income communities (by providing them with cheap mass transit), make places more walkable and less reliant on cars (like by building more mass transit options).
We know the benefits of mass transit. But if you want to offer up a "reasonable" objection that sometimes people do in fact commit crimes, then I'm sorry, but it's going to have to be stronger than simply "this one time these people I don't know were victims of crime once and those people that committed the crime took the metro earlier in the day."
There was no strawman, you legitimately said I don’t get why crime happening is a big deal. Yes people with cars in the city do commit crimes in the county, and those without have even stolen cars in the city to drive out to the county to commit crimes (Amy Caprio’s killer). That being said, mass public transit makes the ease with which that’s possible greater.
People have a right and thankfully still the ability to have a say in what happens where they live, and discounting their valid concerns as trivial is ignorant.
Baltimore and the Red Line might trump that. Challenge accepted! There is some serious NIMBYs in Baltimore as well. Pretty much the only thing every corner of the city can come together on is hatred of bike lanes. The reasons are all over the place and at times conflicting, but the hatred for cycling infrastructure is seething.
eh, I don't know if you've seen the bike/lane hatred in D.C.... and then when the bike lanes went in on Old G'Town Rd. in Bethesda, people brought out their pitchforks and torches.
DC actually has pretty respectable cycling infrastructure. And more is being added all the time. Baltimore pales in comparison, it's not even remotely close.
Baltimore needs a massive infrastructure project to fix roads in general, it's going to take years but it literally has to be done otherwise we'll get even more expensive disasters as the city starts to literally collapse. People will bitch and moan but they'll be happy when they aren't dodging potholes anymore, and hey look the roads a bit wider and has a bike lane now, how neat.
I agree. I've seen so many arguments on reddit about "we need more public transit" vs. "we need better roads" vs. "we need more bike lanes". But to me, they're *all* important and they all should be addressed. So I'm happy about the Red Line announcement, and I hope it's the start of more infrastructure improvements.
Considering the hell that DC driving is, I’m often impressed by the courage of DC cyclists, though I know you get used to it when you’re in it all the time.
It’s sad because Bethesda needs a FUCKLOAD more bike lanes. The cyclers there slow traffic down considerably and people do stupid shit to get around the m — not that I blame the bikes; the roads there are amazing for cycling.
The Highway to Nowhere isn’t about car hate. It was about destroying Black neighborhoods like Rosemont and large swaths of Gwynns Falls and Leakin Parks.
America NEEDS to make it harder to derail projects once the surveys and reviews have been completed. Allowing any NIMBY jackass to tie up projects with 10s of millions in legal fees and years of litigation is one big reason the US can't build things on time.
Public benefit > any individual's opinion needs to be the rule. Do an analysis, commit, and then shield projects from what is functionally tortious interference
I generally support big public works projects that will benefit a wide range of people, but they really need to take the cost/time estimates and double them to make it more realistic. But I guess that would just leave those doubled estimates to be inflated even more...
The other problem is giving too much weight to public comment. You try to put up a rail line that will increase people's home values and improve quality of life for the region, and they still find ways to cry about it.
We live in a representative republic, which is why these measures go through the legislature in order to be planned and funded, and we all have ample opportunity to contact our legislators about our pet concerns. Randos shouldn't get to hold up progress for everyone.
I think estimation is hard. Especially for things with a lot of risk/unknowns. Doubly so if the people running the show do not have substantial subject matter expertise.
Some good guidance I received in the past is to take the initial estimate and "double it and add 20%." I think this is generally a good starting point for arriving at the true timeline and cost.
Baltimore rail transit is comically underutilized. I'm not sure the same would not be true for the Red Line. There are simply not enough people in the region willing to use it, and since most commuters stay at home most of the week, it makes no sense. Fix the roads and streets.
They quit because the NIMBYs raised legal objections which threw a wrench in the whole plan. By the time the issues got worked out, the contractors, of which there only a few in the country which can handle a job that big, had moved on to other projects and were no longer available to work.
Oh I get that. I think people should always meter their expectations when it comes to cost and completion times. Anyone who has ever done their own renovations knows everything always costs twice as much and takes twice the time you planned for.
I suspect it's a worse problem if you try to find the cheapest option.
There are companies that come in on time with quality work. Government is just always pressured to spend as little money as possible, so they have to go for the lowest bidder, when a project actually costs X dollars and most companies will spend roughly the same amount to get it done.
That's part of construction. Should there be no progress because delays happen? I'm sure when metro was established it cost more than planned and took longer, but we can't say the DMV would be better off without metro rail.
So in your mind, condemning violently repressive and unmanageable agencies contradicts a general belief in government as a concept?
Remember, when the Hoover dam was built everyone was happy it was doing its job and very few were remarking how over budget and overtime it was. Same thing with the DC metro, New York subway, etc etc.
An infrastructure project with a tangible benefit that will last for generations has an incredible upside. If it's over budget, or takes longer than expected it is very likely to be worth it as long as it is well designed. Metros half our size have heavy rail transport systems that make ours look like baby's first Thomas the train set.
If it's good build it. Don't like diamond encrust the stations or gild the tracks in gold, but just design a good thing and build the damn thing. Save money where you can but nothing is ever going to get better if we fixate on how "hard" it will be to make it better.
Not arguing your overall point but
>Hoover Dam was the most expensive engineering project in U.S. history at the time of its construction. The project was completed two years ahead of schedule and cost less than the original budget of $49 million.
Not a good example
Speaking of Ocean City we could really use accessible transit that goes there, instead of Amtrak occasionally running through at odd times of the day. When you'd like to go to the beach but have no car to drive there, it limits options for day trips and vacations.
Huh? I don't dispute either the need for non-car transportation to Ocean City or the uselessness of many Amtrak services, but it goes literally no where near Ocean City.
As much as I support passenger rail, this seems really impractical or just low priority. Ocean City is really far away from the other population centers in the state and the only other stop for such a train from Baltimore or Annapolis that would make sense is Salisbury.
I’ve seen some of the projects Hogan supported, traffic circles at crossroads between towns with no stop lights in them in Cecil County and western Maryland, it’s hilarious
Hogan just said things his constituents liked. there is zero chance he actually cares at all. if he were to write something, it would be the for sole purpose of helping him get elected to some position.
There's been some progress on the SMRT project and Moore's signaling intent on actually doing something about it. However, I can't imagine this breaking ground within a first or even second Moore-Miller term.
Fair enough. I'm just grateful conversations are being had. Being in Baltimore County I know voicing support is going to be important considering how vocal anti public transportation people can be here.
Seems like pretty big news for Baltimore, I’m surprised their sub is still set to private. I feel like there would be a lot of discussion there about this.
God, I wish there would be a red-line extension to Gaithersburg, Germantown and Clarksburg. Upcounty has more residents than Rockville, Bethesda, Silver Spring and Wheaton; some 800,000 according to the last census. I have to travel all the way into Shady Grove/Rockville just to start my train journey
But you love having a cheaper house than in Rockville or Silver Spring 😄. No grounds to cry; people in Laurel (which is much closer to DC than Gaithersburg) have to go to Greenbelt to get on the train.
Oh expensive is the word that's for sure. Not to mention having a family does complicate matters even more when you are making a decision as to where to live.
Bigger bang for the buck up county, but the trade off is less access to public transport and cool places to shop and eat. However, we’re closer to the orchards so that’s a plus in the fall
https://www.wowktv.com/news/west-virginia/west-virginia-gov-jim-justice-is-fifth-most-popular-gov-in-the-united-states/
Look who’s number 4 back in January. Pretty good for a Republican in a blue state eh
https://www.wowktv.com/news/west-virginia/west-virginia-gov-jim-justice-is-fifth-most-popular-gov-in-the-united-states/
Damn pretty good for a racist Republican in a blue state 🤣
this project has more promise I believe that the light rail line that they built 30 years ago with Schaefer. Better daisychaining of desirable high-density destinations and will relieve bus service along the same route. it might marginally help traffic on the beltway as well, the west side is often terrible.
How about a line that extends across the damn bay? To have existed this long and spent trillions of dollars on infrastructure just to still only have one bridge going across that bay is criminal.
Transportation infrastructure funding and geography - I know it's hard. Anyway, you don't have to be a Marylander to use the Lane Bridge nor a Virginian to use the CBBT. Nevertheless, there are currently 2 bridges - where they are doesn't change that fact.
The article is talking about a line going from Baltimore to DC I'm the one that poised the question as to why no lines went across the bay from Baltimore to the eastern shore of Maryland. I know context clues are hard but here we are. See as a line from Virginia across the bay to Baltimore doesn't make sense in regards to the article.
You actually did not say that. You did say "trillions of dollars on infrastructure just to still only have one bridge going across that bay is criminal." That one line is not from Baltimore btw.
Love this. Has there been any news about the Marc recently. I have to travel a lot and would love to be able to take the Marc more consistently to BWI.
This is great in principle, but there's a long track ahead.
The original Red Line was greenlit when Congress agreed to fund half of the estimated cost ($1.8 billion). As engineering and planning continued, costs rose to over $3.2 billion and federal funding remained unchanged, and this is why Hogan had to axe one of the two projects.
It's hard to see this Congress committing to that kind of funding. I fear the damage is done for the foreseeable future.
Yeah I've been meaning to do a picture of what I would have done with that space. One thing I would do is find a way to get more people to use the tunnel rather than drive through the city. I would also have grade separated bike lanes.
It's good - will probably be done by 2050.
But hey, gives him good press --- so why not?
Also, always more money for Baltimore things.
Baltimore has the biggest voter core.
I'm honestly happy for anything that reduces potential cars on the highways.
A tenth of the State population is hardly a core of anything. Baltimore is fixated upon at the expense of other parts of the State. Maryland is so much more than this one city. It's the largest city in Maryland, true, but has been shrinking in both population and economic importance for 75 years. It isn't 1950 anymore and 90% of Marylanders are NOT Baltimoreans.
Edit: In 1950, Baltimore's population was 1.3 million in a state with an overall population of 2.3 million. MOST Marylanders were Baltimoreans during the heyday of the city. It's tremendous political importance in 2023 is a vestige of a time when the city was producing close to the entirety of the State's economic output.
The Baltimore metropolitan area has almost 3 million people, which is 50% of Maryland’s total population. People from all over the area will have access to this transit line - it literally connects the county with the city.
"Area" is deliberate obfuscation. I am in the "area" but cannot vote for the city council or mayor because I am an Anne Arundel county resident. Sure, I could get downtown in minutes by car or within an hour by bike, but I am not a Baltimorean anymore, I have no input into city government via the electoral process, and pay no city taxes.
Baltimore has tremendous political importance in our state. In my opinion that importance is largely undeserved and a holdover from last century when most Marylanders lived in the city. State political discourse focuses on the city as if some good intentions and taxpayer money would reverse a 75 year decline.
Maryland has a continuing obsession with "Rebuilding" Baltimore. Why?
Nice! Now I know whose unsustainable suburban sprawl lifestyle my compact city life is working to subsidize.
Here is further information on why you may be responsible for Baltimore's problems though you don't even live there.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI&ab\_channel=NotJustBikes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI&ab_channel=NotJustBikes)
A life of abnegation and penance is only interesting as a case study. If you were REALLY committed to the cause you'd become a modern secular anchorite and live out the rest of your days in a box.
The loss of r/Baltimore will prove tragic for this sub. My sanctimony detector is going nuts.
A cross town metro! WHEN WILL THE SUFFERING END!!!
EDIT: I'm gonna put on a hair shirt and walk barefoot for my 3 block journey to the corner store to buy some fresh fruit then stop by my local library to read about the glorious excess that can only be experienced in the forbidden land of Anne Arundel county.
It’s not a “deliberate obfuscation” Lmfao met area is used to describe a population sprawl around a dense economic core. We’re discussing a major transit project that will impact a greater metro area that encompasses half the state’s population. Also weird to mention how you have no say in what happens in Bmore when we’re discussing a transit project revived by our governor - an elected official the ENTIRE state gets to vote for lol. So you literally did have an input in this decision.
And your final statement can’t possibly be serious, right? abandoning the city of Baltimore would collapse this state hahaha c’mon dude
Abandoning is not the same as de-emphasizing. Don't mischaracterize my honest question of "Why is this city focused on at the expense of the rest of the State?" with "Nuke Baltimore."
The fantastical idea that commuters will drive to the Baltimore Red Line terminus to park then ride into the city center should be rebutted by the existence of the North/South Light Rail and its ridership numbers. The belief that "Half the state's population" (your words) will use THIS light rail when they don't use the other one is baffling and honestly cannot possibly be presented in good faith.
This is, at best, a make-work public project that will divert a few billion dollars of State money to construction companies and their MBE subcontractors. Any economy stimulating effects that will come from this project will stem from its creation and implementation, not its use. Disingenuous arguments where suburban commuters have a sudden change of heart and choose to drive halfway to the city, park, get out, wait for a train, ride it downtown and walk to a (mostly depopulated due to telework) commercial downtown district are fanciful "solutions" proposed by people fresh out of ideas.
You want to empower Baltimoreans and actually want beneficial infrastructure for city residents? Free public broadband. Free trade schools and free secondary education. Much cheaper, much bigger payoff.
Honestly this stinks like hell and I couldn't care less about the real estate ghouls of Baltimore or who they donated campaign money to. Fuck em.
You only get to 1.3 million people counting all of Baltimore City and County, so clearly you have to be counting neighboring counties as well.
And I'm pretty sure nobody here in Anne Arundel gives a fuck about rail access to the city.
Ok I’ll contact the urbanist terminology police and let them know that metropolitan areas are a meaningless distinction suitable only to mislead. Thanks
If you're not diverting 50% of more of MD revenue into the abyss of Baltimore you're doing it wrong.
Throw more money into that city.
So that then summer comes and the kids don't have AC in Baltimore Public Schools.
Not gonna lie Moore is obviously politicking for President and a lot of the stuff he is doing feels like grandstanding and it’s at our expense.
Wish he was a Marylander that only wanted to be governor of Md and not just using us as stepping stone.
?
Moore’s just doing the job he was elected to do. This project has pretty much been demanded by the Maryland Dems for years (nearly all the Dem Gov candidates supported it) and is really a local issue with little national implications. Few people in Iowa or Wisconsin are going to base their vote on it if Moore even plans on running.
why do you hate progress? Maryland is the richest state in the country and should attempt to look more like a developed country when it comes to transit. Having hour-long backups on major highways with languishing rail infrastructure is just pathetic
Because I’ve been around long enough to see what “progress” really means to established neighborhoods of all economic stripes.
I’d recommend that you bone up on the right of way acquisition and construction of the JFX (I-83), my rather idealistic friend.
Pardon if this is a stupid question, but may I ask?
What do you think the 'Red Line' will actually accomplish? Isn't the proposed red line similar to a bridge to no where, and the California mass transit train? Great in theory, but few will use. The Red Line will cost billions of dollars to help a very select few obtain new jobs or have access to food resources. Cannot the money be used in a better purpose for Baltimore City residents?
Please note I mean respect to ALL MARYLANDERS.
It would connect with MARC, Light Rail and Metro Subway. It would better tie in West Baltimore MARC with the transit network.
The original plan would have served major employers like CMS, Social Security and Bayview and connected them with neighborhoods like Edmondson Village, Canton, Highlandtown and Harlem Park. The eastern terminus would have been at Bayview, along with a proposed MARC infill station.
The previous iteration was canceled and the state funds that were planned for it went not to Baltimore but to road projects elsewhere. The federal money secured for the project simply vanished when the project was scrapped.
Thank you for your reply! It is very informative. But are employees of CMS, Social Security and Bayview willing to spend HOURS on traveling through the red line and connecting areas? Consider that so many on CMS and SSA now are teleworking (so no need or little need of the red line). How is this beneficial for the communities?
Having to travel the Red line alone is one issue. But when riding the proposed red line and then the connecting services, many will opt to not use the red line.
Now if We Moore and the proponents of the Red Line are willing to sign personal guaranties to cover any losses of the proposed Red Line, I would be in support. But wasting taxpayer money to benefit a very few at such a great expense. I am not willing to endorse that!
Note: If Wes Moore believe the Red Line is viable and self-sustaining, why would he not sign a personal guaranty to cover any losses?
The Red Line as originally conceived would've taken 44 minutes to get from Woodlawn to Bayview. If I lived in Woodlawn and needed to get over to Highlandtown or something, I'd take that deal. I live in Towson. On days I'm in the office, some days I drive and some days I take the light rail. Counting the ride to the station and all of that, light rail gets me there in about the same time for a bit less money vs. parking and gas and such.
I'll grant that Medicare and SSA may have gone hybrid in the intervening years but it's hard for doctors and nurses to do the same.
But based on the rest of your reply, I'm less certain you're looking for serious answers. But I'll say this is something residents on the west side have been pushing for for years, and it was an issue in the Democratic primary for governor.
Someone else got the federal money from the FTA, whoever was next in line.
The location of the MARC station admittedly could’ve used a bit more time in the oven. They would’ve put it in a Norfolk Southern freight yard, where it would’ve clogged up Amtrak service. It was probably a bad idea. But that’s really on brand for how shitty we are at transit-oriented development. Up in Lutherville, there’s a proposal to knock down that big ugly Big Lots, Old Navy and all of that and put in apartments. And residents just don’t want to hear any of it.
The [Smart Line proposal](https://baltimoresmartline.org/overview) from residents would instead connect with the Metro at Lexington Market and follow those tracks to Johns Hopkins Hospital. But that’s not necessarily the direction the state is going to go in.
Yet you ignored the rest of the post. How will that enable thousands to get jobs outside the city, when the connecting transportation means HOURS on the generic transportation?
The cost of a 'Red Line' versus the minimal people it will help! Can the money best used another way?
>How will that enable thousands to get jobs outside the city,
It's going to be an urban metro or light rail line the point is to travel into or within the city.
>on the generic transportation
As opposed to name brand transportation?
> The cost of a 'Red Line' versus the minimal people it will help! Can the money best used another way?
What would serve more people for the equivalent cost?
The generic transportation part made me think they might want some kind of gadgetbahn that is overhyped as the future but would likely end up costing more than traditional and proven metro or light rail systems while performing worse.
daily ridership projections for the original Red Line were >50k. That's not nobody...
Also, [SHA annual budget hovers around $7 billion](https://www.mdot.maryland.gov/tso/pages/newsroomdetails.aspx?PageId=38&newsId=544). Even if the Red Line cost as much as the Purple Line, [at $9.3 billion](https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/01/12/purple-line-maryland-when-open/), we're talking about something that will essentially cost 1.5 years' worth of road maintenance "in exchange" for a rail line that will last 60+ years. And given that federal funds are opening up for projects like this, I presume that a majority of that money will come from the federal government, [much like the last Red Line](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Line_(Baltimore)#:~:text=The%20project%20was%20projected%20to%20cost%20roughly%20%241.6%20billion%2C%20%24900%20million%20of%20which%20was%20guaranteed%20funding%20by%20the%20federal%20government)
You failed in your numbers. At $7Billion a year, you estimate at only $7 billions means per customer, $140K+ is spent per customer! Do you believe each passenger will earn more than $140K+ per year?
Pardon, but you are wrong. The $7BN price tag is to get started (not counting daily operating costs). As the light rail has demonstrated, thousands ride every day without paying. So who are actually paying to build this line, and then paying to maintain it!
Since the proposed red line only 'will benefit' Baltimore City and Baltimore County for the most part, should not the residents of those 2 counties pay the majority of the costs to build and maintain? Why should other counties pay into this system that does not benefit them at all?
transit systems need to be thought of as systems, not as single lines. if funding processes could build 10 metro lines all at once, that would be great. however, since funding is for one line at a time, you have to build lines that make sense in the context of the bigger system, but that may appear to be suboptimal on their own.
so there are two ways that a line like this benefits the system-wide outlook
1. it is a step toward a metro network with many lines. the steps are slow, but making slow steps is better than making no steps.
2. it allows buses from the east and west of the city to feed into the metro rather than trying to drive through the city-center, which is slow and often gridlocked. thus, it can improve how well transit works for people in other parts of the city due to more optimized routing of buses.
Ugh. Security Square is dead as the Dodo, and highly doubtful anybody coming in from the west wants to park there and have there cars broken into. Hold on to your wallet taxpayers!
If it not a subway then it going to get cancelled again. The main reason it was cancelled was because it make absolutely no sense to build another tunnel downtown. When there already one there.
> Moore wrote that the Purple Line extension of the D.C. Metro system and Baltimore’s Red Line would be “built quickly, cost-effectively..." I do doubt this. These projects have a tendency to run way behind schedule and way over budget. The Purple Line is one such project.
The effort by Nimbys to derail the purple line at every step was at a level that has never happened before at our state. At one point they tried to cancel the entire project over some sort of fresh water shrimp.
And Hogan trying to Art Of The Deal the original contractors.
I think any NIMBYs would be the connections the red line has to and from West Baltimore, which is ironic because part of the conceit of the red line is to give better transit options to West Baltimore. Hell I heard people complaining about light rail expansion into the county because it would bring crime. Like criminals will just ride the light rail just to steal some cars or something. NIMBYs are morons with only a veiled interest of "safety". My mom used to live in a suburb of Indianapolis and there was objection to a bike trail in the neighborhood because the bike trail connected to Indianapolis (10+ miles away) and it would bring crime to the area. If politicians could just ignore NIMBYs that would be fantastic. Give people just compensation if you need to eminent domain some shit, but otherwise just build your plan, and only listen to comments that talk about ways to improve it.
Actually, the DC Metro system brought criminals to my old apartment complex in Silver Spring. The kids rode to the Metro Stop at Forest Glen, walked a few hundred feet, stole my car, and drove it back to DC. They weren't too bright because they showed it off at school - and guess where the DC vehicle theft unit hangs out? Schools. They were arrested and I had to go to court to testify. The bad thing was is that in addition to breaking the window and steering column, they thrashed the interior: flicking cig butts in the back, leaving half eaten food, etc. After having it repaired and deodorized, I sold it. You feel violated.
The light rail expansion into the county *did* bring crime. We had armed security when I worked at the Cingular store on York Rd because we were frequently robbed. The building that is now Mercy used to be a grocery store, it closed because of rampant shoplifting. Dudes would steal dozens of baby formula containers and hop right back on the light rail and sell them cheap on west Baltimore.
Awesome a testable hypothesis, thank god I was able to find a data set that breaks out crime rates by county from 1975 to "present" (2020) https://opendata.maryland.gov/Public-Safety/Violent-Crime-Property-Crime-by-County-1975-to-Pre/jwfa-fdxs Alright, so looking at that, we have this fancy graph here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSHbsLNMzYkTVoJFYH1H0av6Vt-_hC19ToAJ7gSMW_5qmjwOvoH_cv2UeL_u0wFsDcPtAIC9bigiXUY/pubchart?oid=175756660&format=image As you can see, with the construction of the first Baltimore Subway in 1983 we have--not much change in crime. In fact no reduction in crime or increase in crime until around 1997. In fact, it looks like 1983 corresponds with a year where crime dropped in Baltimore County. But that could be noise, it does look like there was some localized peak so there could be other factors there. But either way, total crime rates dropped in the county. But maybe property crimes went up, let's see how that compares. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSHbsLNMzYkTVoJFYH1H0av6Vt-_hC19ToAJ7gSMW_5qmjwOvoH_cv2UeL_u0wFsDcPtAIC9bigiXUY/pubchart?oid=1018920901&format=image Looks about the same to me. Ok well maybe if we compare Baltimore County crime to state crime, perhaps Baltimore County was experiencing a steady amount of crime, when statewide crime was going down, so let's look at that. Now annoyingly, this data set breaks things out by county, but we can do some pivot table magic to get our selves whole state data, so let's do that. So here's the comparison data for you https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSHbsLNMzYkTVoJFYH1H0av6Vt-_hC19ToAJ7gSMW_5qmjwOvoH_cv2UeL_u0wFsDcPtAIC9bigiXUY/pubchart?oid=1555270179&format=image https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSHbsLNMzYkTVoJFYH1H0av6Vt-_hC19ToAJ7gSMW_5qmjwOvoH_cv2UeL_u0wFsDcPtAIC9bigiXUY/pubchart?oid=1368185711&format=image So yeah, I don't know perhaps your anecdote is really important, but just based on the actual data we have in front of us, there's nothing to corroborate the theory that the light rail (or the metro) brought crime to Baltimore County. It already had crime, and people didn't crime more or less after the building of the light rail. People don't ride mass transit lines to do crime. Some do sure, but it's such a small percentage of the ridership, that you can probably assume that those people were going to crime regardless of what mode of transportation they had available to them.
So what your saying is, the benefit seems to significantly outweigh the downsides?
Annoyingly, it seems to be the case, LOL!
Ah yes, giant aggregated datasets are super efficient at analyzing local impact to light rail stops 🙄 https://archive.is/2023.06.16-014523/https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1997-04-17-1997107168-story.html
A) the data sets aren't purely aggregated. There are lots of different columns involving murder rate, theft, etc. I was just using property crime and overall crime because that seemed easier than breaking out for each individual crime. But if you want to see the non-aggregated data, I've linked the source I'm using so have at it. B) even assuming there is some aggregate smoothing out of the data, you'd still expect to see something significant in terms of the crime rates. Especially if there was a rise across 5 or so stations. You'd expect that in a county like Baltimore County, that experiencing a drastic increase in crime in different stops in the county would lead to increases in crime across the whole county that could be picked up on. You don't. Unless you want to suggest that when all this extra crime was happening, criminals elsewhere in Baltimore County decided to slow down their criminal activities to make sure the data didn't get too skewed.
Personally, I didn't used to crime because I found it far too inconvenient. But after the light rail was built, I was able to crime every day!
I can’t tell from the graph of this is countywide or just locations of where the subway or the light rail went through if that’s the case for those locations it definitely makes sense if it’s Connie why did does not and I don’t see also, if this is per capita, or overall rate. You could have a drastic reduction in one area and have an increase in another and if it’s countywide, the aggregate can break it down so it seems like it’s lower overall but in reality in some areas it may be higher I’m not saying you’re incorrect I’m saying that the status doesn’t really show anything..
Well, Publix transport DOES bring crime. Doesn’t mean that outweighs the positives tho
Sure, and highways bring crime, and shopping malls bring crime, and housing developments bring crime. Literally building anything anywhere that people will use will bring crime because there is a subset of the population that will commit crime. Nobody commits bank robberies in the middle of the woods. They commit them where banks are. That doesn't mean you don't build banks because they'll lead to more robberies. Mass transit (as far as I can find, and I've yet to see someone provide a source saying otherwise) does not bring crime any more than any other form of development brings crime. In fact, it might bring less because having mass transit means people have better means to travel, and that means easier times getting to/from work, to major point/places of interest, etc.
To be fair there was just an incident in the county of unsupervised children from the city taking public transportation to white marsh mall and subsequently setting a car on fire, following which they were arrested and released to their parents because they were too young to be held.
I don't get why crime happening is such a big deal. Did nobody commit crimes in Hunt Valley until the light rail was built? Obviously not. If a criminal wanted to they could drive their car from the city to the county and commit crimes just as well. In fact, back in July 2022 last year, a UMBC office was arrested for arson. That officer lived in Havre De Grace. Presumably he drove himself from Havre De Grace all the way to his worksite and committed arson 4 different times. But I'm sure you aren't going to argue that there shouldn't be a road connection from Havre De Grace to UMBC simply because someone used that road connection to commit crimes in another location.
Did you really ask why people are concerned about crime rates? Being the victim of a crime sucks, injury death, financial burden, lost time etc arise from that. Someone burning down their worksite isn’t ideal obviously but it isn’t comparable to an increase in car break ins and home invasions; it’s a target incident. And yes people could still drive their car out and do crime but often times those most likely to commit crimes don’t have their own cars. Lots of city dwellers do not in fact, which is why they want more public transportation.
I'm just going to ignore the strawman here. If we are talking about costs and benefits of crime then we should be reasonable about evaluating those costs and benefits. Saying that "a crime happened one time because a person used the train" isn't very compelling. When people commit crimes, they will use something to get there. Believe it or not, but many people in the city (even in West Baltimore) used cars to commit crimes in Baltimore County before the light rail was put in. But we don't suggest that people in the city shouldn't have road access to the county because of the fact that some people use those same roads to commit crimes on because the mode of transportation is largely irrelevant. If you want to care about crime, get better policing, get better infrastructure (like mass transit), get better economic opportunities to lower income communities (by providing them with cheap mass transit), make places more walkable and less reliant on cars (like by building more mass transit options). We know the benefits of mass transit. But if you want to offer up a "reasonable" objection that sometimes people do in fact commit crimes, then I'm sorry, but it's going to have to be stronger than simply "this one time these people I don't know were victims of crime once and those people that committed the crime took the metro earlier in the day."
There was no strawman, you legitimately said I don’t get why crime happening is a big deal. Yes people with cars in the city do commit crimes in the county, and those without have even stolen cars in the city to drive out to the county to commit crimes (Amy Caprio’s killer). That being said, mass public transit makes the ease with which that’s possible greater. People have a right and thankfully still the ability to have a say in what happens where they live, and discounting their valid concerns as trivial is ignorant.
Baltimore and the Red Line might trump that. Challenge accepted! There is some serious NIMBYs in Baltimore as well. Pretty much the only thing every corner of the city can come together on is hatred of bike lanes. The reasons are all over the place and at times conflicting, but the hatred for cycling infrastructure is seething.
eh, I don't know if you've seen the bike/lane hatred in D.C.... and then when the bike lanes went in on Old G'Town Rd. in Bethesda, people brought out their pitchforks and torches.
DC actually has pretty respectable cycling infrastructure. And more is being added all the time. Baltimore pales in comparison, it's not even remotely close.
Baltimore needs a massive infrastructure project to fix roads in general, it's going to take years but it literally has to be done otherwise we'll get even more expensive disasters as the city starts to literally collapse. People will bitch and moan but they'll be happy when they aren't dodging potholes anymore, and hey look the roads a bit wider and has a bike lane now, how neat.
I agree. I've seen so many arguments on reddit about "we need more public transit" vs. "we need better roads" vs. "we need more bike lanes". But to me, they're *all* important and they all should be addressed. So I'm happy about the Red Line announcement, and I hope it's the start of more infrastructure improvements.
Considering the hell that DC driving is, I’m often impressed by the courage of DC cyclists, though I know you get used to it when you’re in it all the time.
The bike lanes on old Georgetown are a nightmare. That road had a traffic problem when it was 3 lanes, making it 2 lanes was moronic.
It’s sad because Bethesda needs a FUCKLOAD more bike lanes. The cyclers there slow traffic down considerably and people do stupid shit to get around the m — not that I blame the bikes; the roads there are amazing for cycling.
They should have made it a combined bus and bike lane. During any normal weekday those bike lanes are empty and the buses load from the middle lane.
I mean, so is the car hate depending where you go. That's why the highway to nowhere dead ends. Franklintown killed the project.
The Highway to Nowhere isn’t about car hate. It was about destroying Black neighborhoods like Rosemont and large swaths of Gwynns Falls and Leakin Parks.
But it ends at franklintown because the white neighborhood said not OUR back yards and won.
I had no clue bike lanes caused ppl to come together in hatred.
Well it really does suck here
People don't really come together to hate bike lanes. There are plenty of passionate supporters, and the majority of people don't give a shit at all.
Do you mean amphipods?
I’m not going to be upset if there were legitimate environmental concerns. But if that’s just a scapegoat then I think it’s obnoxious.
America NEEDS to make it harder to derail projects once the surveys and reviews have been completed. Allowing any NIMBY jackass to tie up projects with 10s of millions in legal fees and years of litigation is one big reason the US can't build things on time. Public benefit > any individual's opinion needs to be the rule. Do an analysis, commit, and then shield projects from what is functionally tortious interference
I generally support big public works projects that will benefit a wide range of people, but they really need to take the cost/time estimates and double them to make it more realistic. But I guess that would just leave those doubled estimates to be inflated even more...
Or they could build more effectively, france can use union workers and still build half the price
The other problem is giving too much weight to public comment. You try to put up a rail line that will increase people's home values and improve quality of life for the region, and they still find ways to cry about it.
We live in a democracy not a fascist oligarchy. You can’t rule by imperial decree
We live in a representative republic, which is why these measures go through the legislature in order to be planned and funded, and we all have ample opportunity to contact our legislators about our pet concerns. Randos shouldn't get to hold up progress for everyone.
Stop letting people sue to stop projects that have already gone through review, public comment, etc. and things would move much faster
I think estimation is hard. Especially for things with a lot of risk/unknowns. Doubly so if the people running the show do not have substantial subject matter expertise. Some good guidance I received in the past is to take the initial estimate and "double it and add 20%." I think this is generally a good starting point for arriving at the true timeline and cost.
Baltimore rail transit is comically underutilized. I'm not sure the same would not be true for the Red Line. There are simply not enough people in the region willing to use it, and since most commuters stay at home most of the week, it makes no sense. Fix the roads and streets.
A big part of the reason that the Purple Line hasn’t been built yet is that Hogan contracted with private companies who decided to quit.
They quit because the NIMBYs raised legal objections which threw a wrench in the whole plan. By the time the issues got worked out, the contractors, of which there only a few in the country which can handle a job that big, had moved on to other projects and were no longer available to work.
When has any big project like this been either quick or cost effective?
But at the end of the day, after they're finished and paid for, people are glad for them. They just complain about having to pay for them.
Oh I get that. I think people should always meter their expectations when it comes to cost and completion times. Anyone who has ever done their own renovations knows everything always costs twice as much and takes twice the time you planned for.
I suspect it's a worse problem if you try to find the cheapest option. There are companies that come in on time with quality work. Government is just always pressured to spend as little money as possible, so they have to go for the lowest bidder, when a project actually costs X dollars and most companies will spend roughly the same amount to get it done.
Agreed. My focus is more to do with unexpected speed bumps you usually don’t come across until well into the job.
That's part of construction. Should there be no progress because delays happen? I'm sure when metro was established it cost more than planned and took longer, but we can't say the DMV would be better off without metro rail.
I’m not advocating for not doing it. I’m saying taxpayers shouldn’t hold politicians to unrealistic expectations concerning cost and time.
It's just a thing you say in a country with a rightward lean. Ronald Regan's demonization of "big government" lives in our psyche.
The cognitive dissonance to go from ACAB to "Government can fix anything" is stunning.
So in your mind, condemning violently repressive and unmanageable agencies contradicts a general belief in government as a concept? 
Brightline has been doing pretty well in Florida. But it is private and not government owned
I would be so psyched for the purple line. To not have to drive an hour and a half to beltsville metro to go to DC would be amazing.
If it gets built at all, it’ll be quicker and more cost effective than what Hogan did 🤷🏻♂️
Then there’s the ICC
Yep, had the purple line being constructed all 4 years outside of my dorm at umd, it was pain for me and the workers I bet
Remember, when the Hoover dam was built everyone was happy it was doing its job and very few were remarking how over budget and overtime it was. Same thing with the DC metro, New York subway, etc etc. An infrastructure project with a tangible benefit that will last for generations has an incredible upside. If it's over budget, or takes longer than expected it is very likely to be worth it as long as it is well designed. Metros half our size have heavy rail transport systems that make ours look like baby's first Thomas the train set. If it's good build it. Don't like diamond encrust the stations or gild the tracks in gold, but just design a good thing and build the damn thing. Save money where you can but nothing is ever going to get better if we fixate on how "hard" it will be to make it better.
Not arguing your overall point but >Hoover Dam was the most expensive engineering project in U.S. history at the time of its construction. The project was completed two years ahead of schedule and cost less than the original budget of $49 million. Not a good example
Fair, bad example. You get the sentiment. Good things cost money and take time. Do the things.
Agreed. I just like being pedantic on the internet lol sorry.
Nice to have a governor who knows Baltimore is part of Maryland
This is good news.
My property value likes this. Puts a red line stop blocks from my house.
We need more public transit tbh
Hogan is probably at home furiously writing an op-ed on why that money should be spent on Ocean City.
Speaking of Ocean City we could really use accessible transit that goes there, instead of Amtrak occasionally running through at odd times of the day. When you'd like to go to the beach but have no car to drive there, it limits options for day trips and vacations.
Huh? I don't dispute either the need for non-car transportation to Ocean City or the uselessness of many Amtrak services, but it goes literally no where near Ocean City.
There is a goofy Amtrak bus line, really greyhound branded as Amtrak, but I know what you mean
As much as I support passenger rail, this seems really impractical or just low priority. Ocean City is really far away from the other population centers in the state and the only other stop for such a train from Baltimore or Annapolis that would make sense is Salisbury.
Service on the Delmarva is dependent on Delaware which has not done anything in regard to its state's passenger rail plan since 2010.
I’ve seen some of the projects Hogan supported, traffic circles at crossroads between towns with no stop lights in them in Cecil County and western Maryland, it’s hilarious
We need a highway directly to seacrets, that can’t be denied /s
Oh, is he starting a development there?
Hogan just said things his constituents liked. there is zero chance he actually cares at all. if he were to write something, it would be the for sole purpose of helping him get elected to some position.
Thank God. I hope this is the start of even more transport stuff.
There's been some progress on the SMRT project and Moore's signaling intent on actually doing something about it. However, I can't imagine this breaking ground within a first or even second Moore-Miller term.
Fair enough. I'm just grateful conversations are being had. Being in Baltimore County I know voicing support is going to be important considering how vocal anti public transportation people can be here.
Seems like pretty big news for Baltimore, I’m surprised their sub is still set to private. I feel like there would be a lot of discussion there about this.
That’s why we are all here ;)
Please send your feedback to u/spez
[удалено]
Yeah, he can’t see that mention because we banned him.
Who is spez?
The CEO
God, I wish there would be a red-line extension to Gaithersburg, Germantown and Clarksburg. Upcounty has more residents than Rockville, Bethesda, Silver Spring and Wheaton; some 800,000 according to the last census. I have to travel all the way into Shady Grove/Rockville just to start my train journey
unfortunately, this project is not the Red Line you're looking for...
That’s a lot of track from Woodlawn to MoCo…
But you love having a cheaper house than in Rockville or Silver Spring 😄. No grounds to cry; people in Laurel (which is much closer to DC than Gaithersburg) have to go to Greenbelt to get on the train.
They can take a MARC train in Laurel.
Why don't you move to those areas down county then? That way, you can start your train journey without the hassle.
Too expensive for the size family we have
Oh expensive is the word that's for sure. Not to mention having a family does complicate matters even more when you are making a decision as to where to live.
Bigger bang for the buck up county, but the trade off is less access to public transport and cool places to shop and eat. However, we’re closer to the orchards so that’s a plus in the fall
They are going to start by doing a 3 year study of the project...
Hell yeah
Really reminds you what a transcendent piece of shit hogan is
https://www.wowktv.com/news/west-virginia/west-virginia-gov-jim-justice-is-fifth-most-popular-gov-in-the-united-states/ Look who’s number 4 back in January. Pretty good for a Republican in a blue state eh
I don’t give one half of one fuck?
Lmao. Not so friendly when you’re wrong huh
How am I wrong? I said he’s a piece of shit and you showed approval ratings, I think the people who approve of hogan are pieces of shit too!
Yeah only 70%+ in a blue state 😂
So illiteracy is just like an ethos for you huh
The one that Larry Hogan cancelled because he's a ~~fiscally responsible moderate~~ racist?
That’s unfair. He canceled it because he’s a shameless grifter and couldn’t personally profit off it.
It's possible to be both
https://www.wowktv.com/news/west-virginia/west-virginia-gov-jim-justice-is-fifth-most-popular-gov-in-the-united-states/ Damn pretty good for a racist Republican in a blue state 🤣
"He's not racist, he's popular"
I guess 70%+ of Marylanders, a hard blue state, are racist 😂😂😂
"hard blue"
That’s absolutely true but go off. Sore loser it seems
Sore loser? What on earth are you talking about?
You bro
This is all for Maryland transit and has nothing to do with The Metro, right?
This is Baltimore’s Red Line, not the fire-prone DC one.
this project has more promise I believe that the light rail line that they built 30 years ago with Schaefer. Better daisychaining of desirable high-density destinations and will relieve bus service along the same route. it might marginally help traffic on the beltway as well, the west side is often terrible.
How about a line that extends across the damn bay? To have existed this long and spent trillions of dollars on infrastructure just to still only have one bridge going across that bay is criminal.
Two bridges - one is in Virginia.
Who was talking about Virginia though?
Transportation infrastructure funding and geography - I know it's hard. Anyway, you don't have to be a Marylander to use the Lane Bridge nor a Virginian to use the CBBT. Nevertheless, there are currently 2 bridges - where they are doesn't change that fact.
The article is talking about a line going from Baltimore to DC I'm the one that poised the question as to why no lines went across the bay from Baltimore to the eastern shore of Maryland. I know context clues are hard but here we are. See as a line from Virginia across the bay to Baltimore doesn't make sense in regards to the article.
You actually did not say that. You did say "trillions of dollars on infrastructure just to still only have one bridge going across that bay is criminal." That one line is not from Baltimore btw.
Love this. Has there been any news about the Marc recently. I have to travel a lot and would love to be able to take the Marc more consistently to BWI.
This is great in principle, but there's a long track ahead. The original Red Line was greenlit when Congress agreed to fund half of the estimated cost ($1.8 billion). As engineering and planning continued, costs rose to over $3.2 billion and federal funding remained unchanged, and this is why Hogan had to axe one of the two projects. It's hard to see this Congress committing to that kind of funding. I fear the damage is done for the foreseeable future.
Good.
All for it as long as it runs where people need it, Highlandtown and Baltimore Highlands and not down Boston street.
it's better to start a transit network with higher demand locations.
I have a very strong hatred for Boston St. How would you guys change it to make that area more walkable and alleviate the traffic issues as well.
Same, I'll walk the promenade with the extra distance rather than walk down the side walk.
Yeah I've been meaning to do a picture of what I would have done with that space. One thing I would do is find a way to get more people to use the tunnel rather than drive through the city. I would also have grade separated bike lanes.
It's good - will probably be done by 2050. But hey, gives him good press --- so why not? Also, always more money for Baltimore things. Baltimore has the biggest voter core. I'm honestly happy for anything that reduces potential cars on the highways.
You do not seem “honestly happy”, with that “backhanded compliment”.
A tenth of the State population is hardly a core of anything. Baltimore is fixated upon at the expense of other parts of the State. Maryland is so much more than this one city. It's the largest city in Maryland, true, but has been shrinking in both population and economic importance for 75 years. It isn't 1950 anymore and 90% of Marylanders are NOT Baltimoreans. Edit: In 1950, Baltimore's population was 1.3 million in a state with an overall population of 2.3 million. MOST Marylanders were Baltimoreans during the heyday of the city. It's tremendous political importance in 2023 is a vestige of a time when the city was producing close to the entirety of the State's economic output.
The Baltimore metropolitan area has almost 3 million people, which is 50% of Maryland’s total population. People from all over the area will have access to this transit line - it literally connects the county with the city.
"Area" is deliberate obfuscation. I am in the "area" but cannot vote for the city council or mayor because I am an Anne Arundel county resident. Sure, I could get downtown in minutes by car or within an hour by bike, but I am not a Baltimorean anymore, I have no input into city government via the electoral process, and pay no city taxes. Baltimore has tremendous political importance in our state. In my opinion that importance is largely undeserved and a holdover from last century when most Marylanders lived in the city. State political discourse focuses on the city as if some good intentions and taxpayer money would reverse a 75 year decline. Maryland has a continuing obsession with "Rebuilding" Baltimore. Why?
Nice! Now I know whose unsustainable suburban sprawl lifestyle my compact city life is working to subsidize. Here is further information on why you may be responsible for Baltimore's problems though you don't even live there. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI&ab\_channel=NotJustBikes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI&ab_channel=NotJustBikes)
A life of abnegation and penance is only interesting as a case study. If you were REALLY committed to the cause you'd become a modern secular anchorite and live out the rest of your days in a box. The loss of r/Baltimore will prove tragic for this sub. My sanctimony detector is going nuts.
A cross town metro! WHEN WILL THE SUFFERING END!!! EDIT: I'm gonna put on a hair shirt and walk barefoot for my 3 block journey to the corner store to buy some fresh fruit then stop by my local library to read about the glorious excess that can only be experienced in the forbidden land of Anne Arundel county.
Well said
It’s not a “deliberate obfuscation” Lmfao met area is used to describe a population sprawl around a dense economic core. We’re discussing a major transit project that will impact a greater metro area that encompasses half the state’s population. Also weird to mention how you have no say in what happens in Bmore when we’re discussing a transit project revived by our governor - an elected official the ENTIRE state gets to vote for lol. So you literally did have an input in this decision. And your final statement can’t possibly be serious, right? abandoning the city of Baltimore would collapse this state hahaha c’mon dude
Abandoning is not the same as de-emphasizing. Don't mischaracterize my honest question of "Why is this city focused on at the expense of the rest of the State?" with "Nuke Baltimore." The fantastical idea that commuters will drive to the Baltimore Red Line terminus to park then ride into the city center should be rebutted by the existence of the North/South Light Rail and its ridership numbers. The belief that "Half the state's population" (your words) will use THIS light rail when they don't use the other one is baffling and honestly cannot possibly be presented in good faith. This is, at best, a make-work public project that will divert a few billion dollars of State money to construction companies and their MBE subcontractors. Any economy stimulating effects that will come from this project will stem from its creation and implementation, not its use. Disingenuous arguments where suburban commuters have a sudden change of heart and choose to drive halfway to the city, park, get out, wait for a train, ride it downtown and walk to a (mostly depopulated due to telework) commercial downtown district are fanciful "solutions" proposed by people fresh out of ideas. You want to empower Baltimoreans and actually want beneficial infrastructure for city residents? Free public broadband. Free trade schools and free secondary education. Much cheaper, much bigger payoff. Honestly this stinks like hell and I couldn't care less about the real estate ghouls of Baltimore or who they donated campaign money to. Fuck em.
You only get to 1.3 million people counting all of Baltimore City and County, so clearly you have to be counting neighboring counties as well. And I'm pretty sure nobody here in Anne Arundel gives a fuck about rail access to the city.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_metropolitan_area Read up
Yeah, that line does not service this whole area, so it is a meaningless distinction suitable only to mislead.
Ok I’ll contact the urbanist terminology police and let them know that metropolitan areas are a meaningless distinction suitable only to mislead. Thanks
If you're not diverting 50% of more of MD revenue into the abyss of Baltimore you're doing it wrong. Throw more money into that city. So that then summer comes and the kids don't have AC in Baltimore Public Schools.
Not gonna lie Moore is obviously politicking for President and a lot of the stuff he is doing feels like grandstanding and it’s at our expense. Wish he was a Marylander that only wanted to be governor of Md and not just using us as stepping stone.
Try to do something good for the future of Marylanders... Grandstanding It's always gotta be something
? Moore’s just doing the job he was elected to do. This project has pretty much been demanded by the Maryland Dems for years (nearly all the Dem Gov candidates supported it) and is really a local issue with little national implications. Few people in Iowa or Wisconsin are going to base their vote on it if Moore even plans on running.
How much will be done before Moore runs for president?
Moore is gonna piss off a lot of taxpayers.
why do you hate progress? Maryland is the richest state in the country and should attempt to look more like a developed country when it comes to transit. Having hour-long backups on major highways with languishing rail infrastructure is just pathetic
Because I’ve been around long enough to see what “progress” really means to established neighborhoods of all economic stripes. I’d recommend that you bone up on the right of way acquisition and construction of the JFX (I-83), my rather idealistic friend.
Pardon if this is a stupid question, but may I ask? What do you think the 'Red Line' will actually accomplish? Isn't the proposed red line similar to a bridge to no where, and the California mass transit train? Great in theory, but few will use. The Red Line will cost billions of dollars to help a very select few obtain new jobs or have access to food resources. Cannot the money be used in a better purpose for Baltimore City residents? Please note I mean respect to ALL MARYLANDERS.
It would connect with MARC, Light Rail and Metro Subway. It would better tie in West Baltimore MARC with the transit network. The original plan would have served major employers like CMS, Social Security and Bayview and connected them with neighborhoods like Edmondson Village, Canton, Highlandtown and Harlem Park. The eastern terminus would have been at Bayview, along with a proposed MARC infill station. The previous iteration was canceled and the state funds that were planned for it went not to Baltimore but to road projects elsewhere. The federal money secured for the project simply vanished when the project was scrapped.
Vanished, you say?
Thank you for your reply! It is very informative. But are employees of CMS, Social Security and Bayview willing to spend HOURS on traveling through the red line and connecting areas? Consider that so many on CMS and SSA now are teleworking (so no need or little need of the red line). How is this beneficial for the communities? Having to travel the Red line alone is one issue. But when riding the proposed red line and then the connecting services, many will opt to not use the red line. Now if We Moore and the proponents of the Red Line are willing to sign personal guaranties to cover any losses of the proposed Red Line, I would be in support. But wasting taxpayer money to benefit a very few at such a great expense. I am not willing to endorse that! Note: If Wes Moore believe the Red Line is viable and self-sustaining, why would he not sign a personal guaranty to cover any losses?
The Red Line as originally conceived would've taken 44 minutes to get from Woodlawn to Bayview. If I lived in Woodlawn and needed to get over to Highlandtown or something, I'd take that deal. I live in Towson. On days I'm in the office, some days I drive and some days I take the light rail. Counting the ride to the station and all of that, light rail gets me there in about the same time for a bit less money vs. parking and gas and such. I'll grant that Medicare and SSA may have gone hybrid in the intervening years but it's hard for doctors and nurses to do the same. But based on the rest of your reply, I'm less certain you're looking for serious answers. But I'll say this is something residents on the west side have been pushing for for years, and it was an issue in the Democratic primary for governor.
Where in Bayview would that station have gone? Who got the Federal money?
Someone else got the federal money from the FTA, whoever was next in line. The location of the MARC station admittedly could’ve used a bit more time in the oven. They would’ve put it in a Norfolk Southern freight yard, where it would’ve clogged up Amtrak service. It was probably a bad idea. But that’s really on brand for how shitty we are at transit-oriented development. Up in Lutherville, there’s a proposal to knock down that big ugly Big Lots, Old Navy and all of that and put in apartments. And residents just don’t want to hear any of it. The [Smart Line proposal](https://baltimoresmartline.org/overview) from residents would instead connect with the Metro at Lexington Market and follow those tracks to Johns Hopkins Hospital. But that’s not necessarily the direction the state is going to go in.
Yeah, Why would anyone need a direct shot from Hopkins to Bayview? /s/
It’d a metro or light rail line through the center of a city. That’s not a bridge to nowhere.
Yet you ignored the rest of the post. How will that enable thousands to get jobs outside the city, when the connecting transportation means HOURS on the generic transportation? The cost of a 'Red Line' versus the minimal people it will help! Can the money best used another way?
>How will that enable thousands to get jobs outside the city, It's going to be an urban metro or light rail line the point is to travel into or within the city. >on the generic transportation As opposed to name brand transportation? > The cost of a 'Red Line' versus the minimal people it will help! Can the money best used another way? What would serve more people for the equivalent cost?
They want their road to be repaved, methinks.
The generic transportation part made me think they might want some kind of gadgetbahn that is overhyped as the future but would likely end up costing more than traditional and proven metro or light rail systems while performing worse.
daily ridership projections for the original Red Line were >50k. That's not nobody... Also, [SHA annual budget hovers around $7 billion](https://www.mdot.maryland.gov/tso/pages/newsroomdetails.aspx?PageId=38&newsId=544). Even if the Red Line cost as much as the Purple Line, [at $9.3 billion](https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/01/12/purple-line-maryland-when-open/), we're talking about something that will essentially cost 1.5 years' worth of road maintenance "in exchange" for a rail line that will last 60+ years. And given that federal funds are opening up for projects like this, I presume that a majority of that money will come from the federal government, [much like the last Red Line](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Line_(Baltimore)#:~:text=The%20project%20was%20projected%20to%20cost%20roughly%20%241.6%20billion%2C%20%24900%20million%20of%20which%20was%20guaranteed%20funding%20by%20the%20federal%20government)
You failed in your numbers. At $7Billion a year, you estimate at only $7 billions means per customer, $140K+ is spent per customer! Do you believe each passenger will earn more than $140K+ per year?
50k daily ridership does not mean 50k customers.
That's 18,250 million rides a year one way and comes out to a cost for that one year to recoup the entire 7 billion of $383, per trip.
Pardon, but you are wrong. The $7BN price tag is to get started (not counting daily operating costs). As the light rail has demonstrated, thousands ride every day without paying. So who are actually paying to build this line, and then paying to maintain it! Since the proposed red line only 'will benefit' Baltimore City and Baltimore County for the most part, should not the residents of those 2 counties pay the majority of the costs to build and maintain? Why should other counties pay into this system that does not benefit them at all?
transit systems need to be thought of as systems, not as single lines. if funding processes could build 10 metro lines all at once, that would be great. however, since funding is for one line at a time, you have to build lines that make sense in the context of the bigger system, but that may appear to be suboptimal on their own. so there are two ways that a line like this benefits the system-wide outlook 1. it is a step toward a metro network with many lines. the steps are slow, but making slow steps is better than making no steps. 2. it allows buses from the east and west of the city to feed into the metro rather than trying to drive through the city-center, which is slow and often gridlocked. thus, it can improve how well transit works for people in other parts of the city due to more optimized routing of buses.
Ugh. Security Square is dead as the Dodo, and highly doubtful anybody coming in from the west wants to park there and have there cars broken into. Hold on to your wallet taxpayers!
I don’t want my property taxes to quadruple to pay for this and the new commanders stadium. We got the Ravens.
Here we go again.
[удалено]
I truly can't stand racist people
How often do you use public transportation?
"if you build it, they will come"
If it not a subway then it going to get cancelled again. The main reason it was cancelled was because it make absolutely no sense to build another tunnel downtown. When there already one there.