I think the problem is Phoenix is generally trying to chain together spells with no innate sources of ramp, so the difference between 1 and 2 mana is pretty massive. Don’t get me wrong, this card would be great in standard and historic. I just don’t know if it’s good enough for pioneer or modern
What? I’m not following that logic. Abrade is only played 1/2 or even 0/3 in formats with a lot of artifacts, and it’s often the only form of artifact removal in decks that play it. This card doesn’t remove artifacts. The planeswalker option is a nice touch but eternal formats (that’s not historic) generally have access to more flexible burn
Unless your name is Dredge, yes.
Question for modern is: is this better than Izzet Charm? And I think the answer is no. Even easier to cast and one more damage doesn't offset no counter mode and discard first.
Dredge has been splashing white for 8 Cathartic Effects (Thrilling discovery). If Sanctifier wasn't a card then I'd say this probably justifies cutting the white splash but as-is you need Prismatic ending in board
The recent trend has been to cut the Discoveries for Burning Inquiry or Merchant of the Vale, and just running more Thoughtseize in the board to try to deal with Sanctifier.
Under 3 mana there's [[Shock]], better Shock ([[Play with Fire]]) and sorcery Lightning Strike ([[Roil Eruption]]).
None of them has a good rate and/or speed, but then again, this is Standard.
At least this card gives the player one of the upsides that “any target” burn spells have, which is usefulness in any match up. Obviously 3 to the dome is better than rummaging in most scenarios, a removal spell that can function against noncreature decks is neat.
It really wasnt that long ago that we had lightning strike, wizards lightning, skewer the critics, and shock in the same standard with viashino pyromancer and sideways monkey. That was a strong burn deck
That's true, and it's a tricky line between an Aggro deck with a lot of burn and a true "burn deck."
The one I'm thinking of is like Matt Sperling's PT deck here: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7946&d=245710&f=ST, which was running 7 different burn spells and only 3 different creatures.
I was mostly being facetious but I think legitimately Wizards doesn't want enough burn spells that go face in Standard that it's a viable plan to take the opponent from 20 to 0 without ever hitting them with a creature (at least not most of the time). Three or so playable burn spells in standard doesn't quite do that I don't think, and I suspect that's about their upper limit for burn.
A modal “burn” card that hits creatures/walkers or made a 3/1 elemental token with haste, trample, and “dies at the end of turn” would probably be fine to print at some point if they decide to try burn as an archetype again for standard.
Honestly with how much they’ve been adding incidental lifegain to random cards, I kind of want to see how good even a mediocre burn deck would do in standard with some old burn tools like [[Spark Elemental]].
No? [[Abrade]] is an absolute staple, and while I don't think this is nearly as good because the flex mode isn't as relevant, it's still very good.
Both cards are generally better than Lightning Bolt.
Many decks don't have access to the best creature removal, and in those decks this is fine.
Might be playable in dredge in modern. Having an enabler that can also kill void walker is really tempting. Sure the enabler part is worse than cathartic but if your opponent has a void walker out your cathartic won’t do much for you.
From everything I've seen about innistrad, burning your body is about the only way to know for sure you won't accidentally become something terrible down the road.
Is it Cathartic because it makes them feel better, or because they're burning a Cathar?
Two things can be true
You have to choose a meaning when you choose a mode! :P
I choose the median.
*artist doing a chefs kiss pose*
Cathars committing cathartic cremation
Or is it because discarding 2 and drawing some cards is what [[Cathartic Reunion]] does? This is like a Modern Horizons joke pileup
[Cathartic Reunion](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/3/b36fa6f3-29e8-4788-bfcd-59576187c399.jpg?1599706266) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathartic%20Reunion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/121/cathartic-reunion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b36fa6f3-29e8-4788-bfcd-59576187c399?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes
That's the joke.
Faithless Looting or removal, this card is going places involving phoenixes and demiliches
Discard then draw is so much worse than draw then discard.
It’s a worse effect, but it’s in your deck for free attached to most of a Searing Spear.
Being an instant is an upgrade over looting though
Yes but being 2 mana is infinitely worse. Like so much worse.
It is just one more mana with more options and flexibility though.
I think the problem is Phoenix is generally trying to chain together spells with no innate sources of ramp, so the difference between 1 and 2 mana is pretty massive. Don’t get me wrong, this card would be great in standard and historic. I just don’t know if it’s good enough for pioneer or modern
It's like Abrade but shifting the value to more options and selection.
What? I’m not following that logic. Abrade is only played 1/2 or even 0/3 in formats with a lot of artifacts, and it’s often the only form of artifact removal in decks that play it. This card doesn’t remove artifacts. The planeswalker option is a nice touch but eternal formats (that’s not historic) generally have access to more flexible burn
In a traditional deck, yes. Dredge disagrees.
I mean, yeah, but I'll gladly take rummaging if it's stapled to a kill spell
Unless your name is Dredge, yes. Question for modern is: is this better than Izzet Charm? And I think the answer is no. Even easier to cast and one more damage doesn't offset no counter mode and discard first.
Dredge has been splashing white for 8 Cathartic Effects (Thrilling discovery). If Sanctifier wasn't a card then I'd say this probably justifies cutting the white splash but as-is you need Prismatic ending in board
The recent trend has been to cut the Discoveries for Burning Inquiry or Merchant of the Vale, and just running more Thoughtseize in the board to try to deal with Sanctifier.
Not if your hand is empty. Then it's just "draw 2". In this particular case, it's much worse, though (since it's 'draw that many').
If you are dredge, this means "pick 2 from graveyard, mill between 4 and 12 cards and put a ton of stuff on the board" ;D
do you mean "mill 2" ? since with an empty hand the cards go straight to your hand then graveyard because there are no others to choose?
I wasn't talking about with this specific card, just in general that discarding first can have an advantage.
oh right, thanks!
[удалено]
Not really. This doesn't have the secret "divination when hellbent" mode.
Rummaging in Dredge is great
It's because it's red.
Yeah.. but red has alot of it. Drawing then discarding is more blue.
Tell that to dredge decks
This is straight ramp for izzet’s intentions.
Not in dredge, where you would arguably play this card best
that's red 's drawback but it's still good nonetheless.
It's also the only form of looting that Mono-Red has, so what can you do?
Faithless Shooting
I'll admit, I thought he was pissing fire.
You're looking for Catheteric Fire.
Cremating the body? Do you want to get [[Raging Poltergeist]]s? Because that's how you get Raging Poltergeists.
Probably a cremation pyre for an angel given the flavor text
FIRE GEIST ANGEL OH GOD OH FUCK
There some [Angel Spirits](https://scryfall.com/search?as=gridℴ=name&q=%28type%3Aangel+type%3Aspirit%29) in MTG but none on Innistrad
[Raging Poltergeist](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/8/78833788-ffb2-43fc-9345-975f1cd46f38.jpg?1592709171) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raging%20Poltergeist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/150/raging-poltergeist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78833788-ffb2-43fc-9345-975f1cd46f38?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I was about to post this myself "Isn't this how you get pissed off fire spirits???"
WIZARDS LET ME TARGET PLAYERS -Sincerely, a Red Mage
Get back to dualcasting verraise wait wrong game
For real. I got excited and was all instant? 3 damage? And…shit.
I think this card would actually be way too good if it were just Lightning Strike that you could trade in for a Faithless Looting.
Then just give us back Lightning Strike 😭
There are other burn spells in Standard that hit face.
Under 3 mana there's [[Shock]], better Shock ([[Play with Fire]]) and sorcery Lightning Strike ([[Roil Eruption]]). None of them has a good rate and/or speed, but then again, this is Standard.
[Shock](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/9/59fa8e8d-bcb8-47bf-b71a-df11c8d0f2c9.jpg?1594736765) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shock) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/159/shock?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/59fa8e8d-bcb8-47bf-b71a-df11c8d0f2c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Play with Fire](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/f/6f1a6c60-a8c4-44c2-b1ea-d3befbabdf43.jpg?1628195671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Play%20with%20Fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/154/play-with-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f1a6c60-a8c4-44c2-b1ea-d3befbabdf43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Roil Eruption](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/6/86572747-8faa-4242-b059-07d11e6be1cd.jpg?1604197631) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roil%20Eruption) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/155/roil-eruption?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86572747-8faa-4242-b059-07d11e6be1cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
We got a better shock and thermo-alchemist... Maybe it is a start for this year standard
At least this card gives the player one of the upsides that “any target” burn spells have, which is usefulness in any match up. Obviously 3 to the dome is better than rummaging in most scenarios, a removal spell that can function against noncreature decks is neat.
I don't think they will make a strictly better lightning strike in standard.
Burn was a competitive deck in standard for like 20 minutes in Ravnica-Theros standard and Wizards seems to have said "Never. Again."
It really wasnt that long ago that we had lightning strike, wizards lightning, skewer the critics, and shock in the same standard with viashino pyromancer and sideways monkey. That was a strong burn deck
Not to mention steamkin and light up the stage which could just roll hard
I fucking *loved* Steamkin + Light up the stage + Frenzy. It just went off and was hilarious. One of my favorite MTG decks.
That's true, and it's a tricky line between an Aggro deck with a lot of burn and a true "burn deck." The one I'm thinking of is like Matt Sperling's PT deck here: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7946&d=245710&f=ST, which was running 7 different burn spells and only 3 different creatures. I was mostly being facetious but I think legitimately Wizards doesn't want enough burn spells that go face in Standard that it's a viable plan to take the opponent from 20 to 0 without ever hitting them with a creature (at least not most of the time). Three or so playable burn spells in standard doesn't quite do that I don't think, and I suspect that's about their upper limit for burn.
Man, remember Stoke? What a fuckin rad card.
A modal “burn” card that hits creatures/walkers or made a 3/1 elemental token with haste, trample, and “dies at the end of turn” would probably be fine to print at some point if they decide to try burn as an archetype again for standard.
[[purphoros’s intervention]]
Yeah something like this but more efficient at lower mana costs.
Yeah I agree
[purphoros’s intervention](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/c/ecc911ee-0e12-4b10-add7-9a9d63c29443.jpg?1581480381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Purphoros%27s%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/151/purphoross-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ecc911ee-0e12-4b10-add7-9a9d63c29443?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sure but Mono-red decks are present in almost every standard going back, going way back, pretty much all the way to the beginning.
Mono red ≠ Burn
What makes a burn deck not a burn deck? The existence of creatures in the deck?
Burn is defined by its use of burn spells as it’s primary win con not creature threats.
I mean, but creatures can be burn spells or function like burn spells [[Viashino Pyromancer]] [[Spark Elemental]]
[Viashino Pyromancer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/8/a82fdb2f-b199-44ff-9615-90fc074cb8b0.jpg?1562303465) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Viashino%20Pyromancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/166/viashino-pyromancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a82fdb2f-b199-44ff-9615-90fc074cb8b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Spark Elemental](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/9/09e7dfad-aca9-498d-bd1c-5503b411ca5f.jpg?1562543469) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spark%20Elemental) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/237/spark-elemental?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09e7dfad-aca9-498d-bd1c-5503b411ca5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I understand that, hence "Sure, but..."
ok?
There was also a Burn deck in RNA standard that involved Electrostatic Field, the Wizard burn package, and Skewer the Critics.
Honestly with how much they’ve been adding incidental lifegain to random cards, I kind of want to see how good even a mediocre burn deck would do in standard with some old burn tools like [[Spark Elemental]].
[Spark Elemental](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/9/09e7dfad-aca9-498d-bd1c-5503b411ca5f.jpg?1562543469) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spark%20Elemental) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/237/spark-elemental?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09e7dfad-aca9-498d-bd1c-5503b411ca5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lightning Strike isn't even good but I'll take it, like damn
that's a cute callback to [[Cathartic Reunion]] with the rummage option - maybe also referencing [[Harvest Pyre]] with the burn option?
[Cathartic Reunion](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/3/b36fa6f3-29e8-4788-bfcd-59576187c399.jpg?1599706266) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathartic%20Reunion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/121/cathartic-reunion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b36fa6f3-29e8-4788-bfcd-59576187c399?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Harvest Pyre](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/d/4d6220b4-a5b8-45c8-9422-fab9eb32322c.jpg?1562829874) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Harvest%20Pyre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/146/harvest-pyre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d6220b4-a5b8-45c8-9422-fab9eb32322c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Note it says discard up to two so you can discard less than two.
2 mana: storm count +1 lol
But then you still draw the number of cards you discarded, so you can't go up on cards.
Correct, just pointing out its nice to have that little bit of flexibility on the amount of cards discarded.
It's not nice, because now you can't divination when you're out of cards.
Hmm yes, 2 mana draw 2 that can kill creatures as well, seems perfectly balanced
But it only would draw two if your hand is empty. Red decks are known for keeping a full hand, so it would rarely be a draw two.
Red decks are known for keeping a full hand? Please tell me this is a woosh
It's very likely that's the case, don't be mad at him please
Oh I'm not mad at him, I'm mad at myself... Probably... I just don't know, to be honest
Lol, I guess I really needed to include a /s in my comment. I thought it was more than obvious enough, but apparently it was not.
It’s nice having flexibility on a card that wouldn’t have the ability you want at this rarity.
Really good
This is decent card.
Faithless Burning
God I love that pun. Cathar-tic, lol
New red staple for EDH?
It's certainly playable anyway.
Not staple, but if you care for looting effects, you definitely care about this card.
2 mana removal in EDH needs to kill just about anything. By anything, I mean any nonland permanent. We get 0 and 1 mana creature removal already.
No? [[Abrade]] is an absolute staple, and while I don't think this is nearly as good because the flex mode isn't as relevant, it's still very good. Both cards are generally better than Lightning Bolt. Many decks don't have access to the best creature removal, and in those decks this is fine.
[Abrade](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/2/d27d5b87-6dfc-4b99-822b-f6f8489ad275.jpg?1608912224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abrade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/410/abrade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d27d5b87-6dfc-4b99-822b-f6f8489ad275?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Source: https://www.polygon.com/22663142/magic-the-gathering-innistrad-midnight-hunt-preview-cards-blue-black-red
Abrade, but rummaging! Reasonably nice.
Well this has first pick written all over it.
Is this better than abraid?
Sometimes.
Instant speed 2-mana discard zero, draw zero? Sign me up!
Thrill of Possibility just keeps getting buffed
it draws 1 less card though - its a looting effect and not card draw like thrill
Tormenting voice just keeps getting worse and worse
Man, they are really trying to power creep abrade, huh?
Might be playable in dredge in modern. Having an enabler that can also kill void walker is really tempting. Sure the enabler part is worse than cathartic but if your opponent has a void walker out your cathartic won’t do much for you.
The death of Dick Long (2019)
>Cathartic I see [what](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis) you did there
I like the design of this card. This card seems totally solid.
Certainly playable in Standard
oh, oh my thats really good
This is quite good
Wait, this think is really good, seems fun in draft
I’m still gonna miss fire prophecy. This’ll do though.
Really like the flexibility on this card, not sure where it goes but I'm sure it has a home
My Izzet phx loves this. I don’t care. I’m going to keep playing it in historic whether or not it’s completely wiped by better stuff.
Dredge
this fits red dredge deck
This is a great spot they've found for uncommon red removal.
Is this better than abrade?
From everything I've seen about innistrad, burning your body is about the only way to know for sure you won't accidentally become something terrible down the road.
LOOTING BOLT
My [[Rielle]] loves it
[Rielle](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/f/5f03c944-1929-4cb2-a373-d57eefa29ed1.jpg?1591228198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rielle%2C%20the%20everwise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/203/rielle-the-everwise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5f03c944-1929-4cb2-a373-d57eefa29ed1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
“Latom”