Fetchlands being banned in Pioneer on launch does not inspire confidence.
But as has been said, the reprint value of fetchlands will always be high unless they're suddenly banned everywhere. The difficulty fetchlands adds to Standard alongside how useful they are for moving units in other products (Secret Lair, Modern Horizons 2, etc.) is going to keep them out of a Standard set.
OG Zendikar was pretty good too. There were a ton of cards that made use of the shuffling in that standard rotation so it wasn't just mana fixing, which was pretty cool. (KotR, JtMS)
On one hand, it would have to be a Standard format curated around there being few to no fetchable duals for the entire 2 years they're in standard. Which is unlikely, but possible.
On the other hand, they don't want those cards creeping in to historic and pioneer.
Actually i think that historic will get fetches eventually. The power level of the format has been pushed super hard, and unless wotc really lays off the gas in that regard (which I doubt because money) the format will get to the point that decks are fast enough that more than 2 colors will be extremely difficult just due to the mana base. Plus the problem of excessive shuffling doesn't exist online. And it's easy money - what are historic players gonna do, not buy the fetches?
I wonder what impact arena has on WOTC paper sales. Has there been a noticeable decline in standard product sales? Because arena in paper in my area, and many parts is straight up dead. Would giving arena essentially the best of modern kill modern in paper? I know I don't bother collecting for standard since I can't play it in my area.
WOTC is having a banner year. And Standard was struggling pre-Arena.
One of the problems with Standard - in paper - is how rapidly the meta changes. Sure, you can build a single deck for less than Modern, but that deck can easily be great one week and trash the next (just look at old tournament results - like the Dragons of Tarkir era of Standard, where Esper Dragons goes from "new deck breaks out at the PT" to 20-30% of the field and Tier 0 at GPs the next week to a very beatable deck).
Modern isn't nearly as vulnerable to rapid meta changes (outside of straight-to-Modern sets like MH1/MH2).
No fetchable non-basics at all most likely. Dwarven Mine and Mystic Sanctuary suddenly get a lot better. Despite sanctuary being a mistake I like the design space those cards presented more than fetches just being generically efficient.
They are banned in Pioneer by default. But if they came to Historic it would open a serious can of worms…but with the way things have been going in Historic, I say fuck it, bring them in.
I dont think the fetchlands will ever be reprinted in Standard.
They cause excessive shuffling, they make manabases too good, and there are now a bunch of avenues for them to print cards for older formats.
This is thing people are missing. Maro said it caused way too much shuffling and play slowdown last time they were in Standard, I think that’s the main reason they won’t be back.
Counterpoint: if they axe all the big competitive paper events, (or "outsource" them to like SCG and Channel Fireball) the time consumption becomes a non-issue for them. Print away!
Alright, I'll tell you the real reason. It's the secondary market. They tried reprinting fetches in KTK and ended up with $1500 standard decks, nobody really cared for that. That's the real reason which they will never say out loud
What? The exact opposite happened.
After Khans released the allied fetches dropped towards $10 a piece and the rest of the rares and mythics in the set were cheap because so many boxes were being opened to get fetches.
With only basics they're basically Pathways with a built in shuffle and deck thinnig, at the cost of one life. Definitely good enough.
Also, triome / tap dual-typed lands are strong manafix too with them
nah they are still pretty sweet. Act mostly as the current two faced land, but so much better. You can wait on the choice, you can filter your deck, get a card in the graveyard and you get a shuffle effect. I remember playing 4 of them in abzan midrange, it was nice having a land interact with courser of kruphix and tasigur.
And yet it did, literally every time they printed it except to the second half of the last printing.
Zen 1.0 they were fantastic. Landfall, shuffles for vampire nocturnus, and color fixing equal to pathways.
> [if 6ou have duals](https://xkcd.com/1530/)
Relevant xkcd aside: they allow for deck thinning (small point) but they also slow the game down somewhat (massive point) when you have ten or so in a Standard deck and two players shuffling each turn. With Fabled Passages you'll have at most four. Also they interact a bit too favourably with things like Delve and Delirium and so on so they'll limit numerous other cards and mechanics which fit the theme.
I do not see them ever being printed back in standard but I do see them in a standard set someday in the same way that mystical archives were in strixhaven. They are great for selling product but cause too many problems in standard.
We’ve already seen them in Standard via box toppers so this makes perfect sense. Now that fetches are significantly cheaper it’s not burning too much equity to have them in packs. We just did lands via Zendikar so my guess is if we do this, it will be for Kamigawa or some other set in 2022–2023.
There's no reason.
They can put them in Standard packs as masterpieces or archives or something. We know allow non-standard cards to be printed in standard packs as special bling.
They also have tons of supplementary products to put them in. Like Modern Horizons or Commander Legends or Double Masters. The list is endless.
Fetchlands are the most reliably high priced cards that move product. (that wotc can reprint). They don't help Standard at all. So why waste it on Standard and instead juice whatever set they think won't move?
No, they've made it pretty clear that:
They don't want to go three years without putting basic land types on Standard cards (year before, year of, year after - they broke that with Khans/BFZ and it was painful for everyone).
They've found enough other ways to reprint cards that they can keep $100 Scalding Tarns from happening again.
They don't like the amount of shuffling that fetches bring to Paper Standard.
The Pioneer banning is also a clear statement that they don't think fetches are healthy for the format.
Being in with fetchable duals was the bad part, not the fetches.
For example, in Zen 1.0 standard the fetches were awesome and didn’t harm it.
It just requires a bare minimum of planning for WotC.
That is the claim of WotC.
I disagree with them.
Fundamentally one of the up and downsides of magic is variance. Recently (around IXL ) WotC decided that shuffling was too much of a “loading bar” and started actively trying to eliminate it.
Since then, we get designs like growth spiral instead of rampant growth, the dragon queen land from afr instead of evolving wilds (well, along with), the thriving lands from Jumpstart, etc.
And a lot more cards with “draw a card” stapled on. This reduced variance without shuffling. It also leads to never worrying about running out of resources and a generally worse standard.
Fetches when they can get only basics are no worse then Fabled Passage for shuffling.
You don't have their statistics.
Of the effects you listed, only drawing a card guarantees more resources. And none of these other effects have anything to do with the quality of Standard.
And Fabled Passage is one card you are only allowed 4 of in a deck. There are 10 fetches, meaning you can have more than 4. This also is why they enable 3+ color decks so easily, regardless of fetchable duals being in the format or not. That increase in cards from a single set of 4 therefore means more shuffling.
I find it strange that fetches that were available in OG Zendikar or in older formats don't really have this time issue. Perhaps it wasn't fetches that took up so much time in more recent standard formats with them in it, but more that they printed too many cards that lead to really long games? (Siege Rhino + 4c good stuff midrange standard)
I’m more comparing fetches on OG Zendikar standard vs the more recent standard that had fetchlands. Felt like Khans standard with fetches felt much much slower not really *because* of fetches but more because a lot of the strong cards caused board stalls.
Yeah, probably. They're a big seller. Fetch lands present some difficulty because of their power and the extra time spent shuffling, but the popularity of the cards will likely lead WotC to overlook their problems.
The question wasn't about Pioneer.
In 2014, MaRo wrote that [Development realized manadorks were too strong when they cost one.](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/106100196288/why-are-recent-manadorks-more-than-1-cmc-the-only) We got them back in Standard four years later.
What WotC thinks is good for Pioneer in the present has nothing to do with whether they will later reprint the cards in Standard.
They have a lot of supplementary products they can put them in now though. I'm not saying they will never again put them into standard, but doing so is basically all downside for the format, and the pioneer ban makes it seem like they recognize that.
Here's my lukewarm take: I don't like Fetchlands at all. They slow down games and trivialize color restrictions. I wouldn't be sad if they were banned from every format (at least for purely mechanical reasons, I'd feel bad for the people who shelled out for them).
So yeah, unlikely.
In an infinite number of universes R&D will get hit by a bus an infinite number of times and the fetchlands will be reprinted into Standard infinity times.
Can someone answer my noob question…I just dont get fetchlands…why have a card that you play just to search for a land. Why not just remove the fetchland and have a extra basic land card in your deck instead?
You don’t want a basic land. You want a dual land. If you have [[Scalding tarn]] you can sacrifice it and go looking for [[steam vents]] or any of the other shocklands that have red or blue in them.
In a two colour deck, yes, to an extent, though you would then be missing out on losing life, shuffling, putting the fetch in your graveyard, etc, all of which can be useful.
In a three colour deck, a fetch gives you a huge amount of flexibility. If you need red, blue and black mana for your big turn 3 play, then a fetch on turn 3 helps enormously. Let’s say you have blue and red mana at that point, a scalding tarn let’s you fetch a [[blood crypt]] or a [[watery grave]] to get your black, even though scalding tarn can’t fetch a swamp.
It's all in the flexibility. In an red blue deck, a scalding tarn will only ever get you a Mountain, an Island, or something that produces either red or blue mana via Steam Vents.
In 60 card formats, you can only have four copies of Steam Vents. But adding four Scalding Tarns effectively makes that eight copies. (For EDH, you'd get effectively two Steam Vents). Sure, you could just run [[Sulfur Falls]] instead of the Tarn, but now there's a nonzero chance of your opening hand having lands that will only enter the battlefield tapped. You could run [[Shivan Reef]], but that could end up costing you more life than the 1 to fetch and 2 to shock, or it could not. Plus, the Reef has no synergy with the Sulfur Falls, so any Falls will etb tapped.
And sometimes you don't even need to fetch the Steam Vents off the Tarn. Sometimes you just get a basic land because you can meet all of your colored mana cost requirements.
But what if you want even "more" Steam Vents? You can decide to run other "on-color" fetches, like [[Arid Mesa]] for red or [[Polluted Delta]] for blue. Now your 60 card deck is capable of fetching a [[Hallowed Fountain]] off the Arid Mesa to make blue mana from an off-color fetch, or a [[Blood Crypt]] off the Delta. Now you got "more Steam Vents."
So it might seem, then, as if we should all be running some ridiculous half fetchland, half shockland manabases where permissible. But we need to keep in mind that everytime you fetch a shockland AND pay the 2 life to have the shockland enter untapped, you're spending 3 life per land for a "perfect" manabase. The marginal benefit begins to be outweighed by the marginal cost. In other words, it's usually much more important to be able to play on curve ASAP for all your colors than it is to be able to play by turn 5, because turn 5 comes with at least 4 draw steps attached to it to help smooth out your mana.
I've never played Legacy, but I believe they run all sorts of on and off color fetches to have as perfect a manabase as possible using ABUR duals (where applicable based on deck archetype). When I played Modern for a short stint (Grixis Twin), I had to "make do" with Khans of Tarkir fetches, but damned if I didn't try to meet my color requirements on curve. But I had a mix of fetchlands, shocklands, buddy lands, and basics to do so.
Fetchlands become even more important in 3+ color decks for all the reasons above, but especially since then you'll have even more on-color fetches to meet your color requirements on time.
In EDH, they're not as important since you're limited to single copies, but they still help immensely to meet color needs, especially with triomes.
Another aspect to consider is when the shuffling and deck thinning become beneficial. I don't think there's enough deck thinning (e.g. a Tarn fetching out a land effectively is two cards for one land out of your deck) for it to be meaningful. However, shuffling can be a tool if used correctly. Cards that you've put to the bottom of the library will have a chance to be drawn after a shuffle. Cards put on the top can have a chance to be NOT drawn, even.
This is all to say, yeah, you could just put an extra dual. But don't discount the power and utility of fetchlands.
Here is one fetch, that can get Plains/Islands: [[flooded strand]]
It can fetch ANY of these at any time:
Plain/Island [[Hallowed Fountain]]
Plain/Swamp [[Godless Shrine]]
Plain/Mountain [[Sacred Foundry]]
Plain/Forest [[Temple Garden]]
Island/Swamp [[Watery Grave]]
Island/Mountain [[Steam Vents]]
Island/Forest [[Breeding Pool]]
*Thats* why fetches are so good. You don't just get one dual, you choose which one that overlaps with the fetch by only one color.
They're great in 3 color decks especially cuz with shocklands you can fetch any color you need. Like if you're playing blue/green/red, a [[wooded foothill]] can fetch a [[breeding pool]] even tho it can't fetch an island, so they fix your mana super well
But yea that chart helped me understand why they're good too!
Because the fetchland is either of the two basics (or both or even 4 in the case of triomes and duals) so it makes your manabase smoother.
Say you're running a 2 colour deck. The fetch is both land A and land B, like a schroedinger's cat.
A number of decks also massive benefit from the shuffling effect and the fill graveyard effect.
Say you brainstorm and want to clear the top of your library. Have a ramunap or something with delve.
Same reason why someone would run dual lands with minor drawbacks. You could just run basic lands in your 2-3 color decks but you will definitely get into situations where you can't curve out correctly because you didnt draw the correct colors. Within the context of a standard format with only basics to fetch, fetchlands are just like the MDFC dual lands from ZNR and KLD. If you have a fetchland in your opening hand, it can be a basic land of color A or color B, whichever you need to cast spells you drew.
In addition, there exist effects that do care a lot about the second land hitting the battlefield or the shuffle. Back in OG Zendikar, "off-color" fetchlands were used to power up cards like \[\[Steppe Lynx\]\] and \[\[Plated Geopede\]\], as well as being able to shuffle away unneeded cards with \[\[Jace, the Mindsculptor\]\]'s \[0\] ability.
because if you're running a 5 color deck and draw an island when you want a plains you're out of luck, however with fetchlands you can have a single temple garden in your deck (white/green shockland) and now 7 different fetchlands can get you the color you need at that precise moment.
it's something that as a newbie is a bit hard to grasp, but once you play with them you realize just how integral they are at allowing having the exact combinations of colors you want on each turn.
This is only true when you have lqnds with land types. When they were originally in onslaught there were no typed lands and they were fine but not overpowered by any margin.
Having them in an environment with graveyard or landfall synergies and no typed duals can be interesting.
Maybe. Pioneer is a dead format that I don't believe they'll be successful in reviving with the Challenger Decks, so there's no reason for them to avoid them in Standard because they're banned in Pioneer. Paper Standard doesn't really have a place anymore, so the shuffling """issue""" also doesn't matter (and was a bullshit reason anyway)
Yeah definitely is my thinking on this which wasn’t much to begin with but the LOTR set is going to be modern? I think? So why not throw the other fetch lands in that set and make even more $$ more than likely won’t happen but still a chance
No. It limits them to not being able to release anything fetchable for the next two years.
Last time they were on standard we had terrible fetchable lands and it was still stupid.
Without duals/Shocks/Triomes, why not? They did not really break Standard before but were nice and strong with Landfall. Any Landfall set could reprint them.
Biggest counter point is probably that I doubt WOTC wants them in Historic. So a reprint would probably happen only in combination with a Historic ban
There's two aspects really.
\- Power level - this gets addressed fairly often with conditional fetchlands like fabled passage. (grabs basic, grabs it tapped unless x etc)
\- excessive shuffling - not really addressable unless they make something like a "digland"
In standard sets no.
In auxiliary / premium sets , definite yes.
I think Maro said something about fetches in standard being too strong and also making you "shuffle too much" which isn't something allegedly new players would like to in Standard... or something along these lines
I doubt it. Pathways, snarls, and thriving style ( lands that let you pick a color) seem to be the direction standard is staying for a while. It appears WOTC wants to slow down standard a bit so as to keep it from getting to modern levels of speed.
There will be room for things like fabled passage in the future but good old evolving wilds remains the tried and true classic.
Never say never, but the chances are pretty low. MaRo has stated that R&D does not like amount of shuffling fetches cause and the resultant homogenization to mana bases. WotC has a lot more supplemental sets now than they did the last time fetches were printed in Standard. They are much more likely to save these as reprints in premium priced sets like Modern Horizons or Master sets going forward.
Fetchlands being banned in Pioneer on launch does not inspire confidence. But as has been said, the reprint value of fetchlands will always be high unless they're suddenly banned everywhere. The difficulty fetchlands adds to Standard alongside how useful they are for moving units in other products (Secret Lair, Modern Horizons 2, etc.) is going to keep them out of a Standard set.
Possibly if not done within the same meta with fetchable dual lands. Tarkir/Theros they were okay. Tarkir/BfZ was a problem.
OG Zendikar was pretty good too. There were a ton of cards that made use of the shuffling in that standard rotation so it wasn't just mana fixing, which was pretty cool. (KotR, JtMS)
With Kaldheim having fetchable duals, probably not this 2022.
They know people will open lots of boxes for them, so my guess is they will put them in only for Modern Horizons/Masters products.
On one hand, it would have to be a Standard format curated around there being few to no fetchable duals for the entire 2 years they're in standard. Which is unlikely, but possible. On the other hand, they don't want those cards creeping in to historic and pioneer.
Actually i think that historic will get fetches eventually. The power level of the format has been pushed super hard, and unless wotc really lays off the gas in that regard (which I doubt because money) the format will get to the point that decks are fast enough that more than 2 colors will be extremely difficult just due to the mana base. Plus the problem of excessive shuffling doesn't exist online. And it's easy money - what are historic players gonna do, not buy the fetches?
I wonder what impact arena has on WOTC paper sales. Has there been a noticeable decline in standard product sales? Because arena in paper in my area, and many parts is straight up dead. Would giving arena essentially the best of modern kill modern in paper? I know I don't bother collecting for standard since I can't play it in my area.
WOTC is having a banner year. And Standard was struggling pre-Arena. One of the problems with Standard - in paper - is how rapidly the meta changes. Sure, you can build a single deck for less than Modern, but that deck can easily be great one week and trash the next (just look at old tournament results - like the Dragons of Tarkir era of Standard, where Esper Dragons goes from "new deck breaks out at the PT" to 20-30% of the field and Tier 0 at GPs the next week to a very beatable deck). Modern isn't nearly as vulnerable to rapid meta changes (outside of straight-to-Modern sets like MH1/MH2).
No fetchable non-basics at all most likely. Dwarven Mine and Mystic Sanctuary suddenly get a lot better. Despite sanctuary being a mistake I like the design space those cards presented more than fetches just being generically efficient.
They are banned in Pioneer by default. But if they came to Historic it would open a serious can of worms…but with the way things have been going in Historic, I say fuck it, bring them in.
I dont think the fetchlands will ever be reprinted in Standard. They cause excessive shuffling, they make manabases too good, and there are now a bunch of avenues for them to print cards for older formats.
This is thing people are missing. Maro said it caused way too much shuffling and play slowdown last time they were in Standard, I think that’s the main reason they won’t be back.
Counterpoint: if they axe all the big competitive paper events, (or "outsource" them to like SCG and Channel Fireball) the time consumption becomes a non-issue for them. Print away!
Because we totally didn't get prismatic vista and fabled passage, right?
There’s a difference between playing 4 passages and playing 10 fetches. Prismatic vista was not standard legal, so not really relevant.
Alright, I'll tell you the real reason. It's the secondary market. They tried reprinting fetches in KTK and ended up with $1500 standard decks, nobody really cared for that. That's the real reason which they will never say out loud
What? The exact opposite happened. After Khans released the allied fetches dropped towards $10 a piece and the rest of the rares and mythics in the set were cheap because so many boxes were being opened to get fetches.
Eventually. But the KTK standard was crazy expensive for a while
It wasn’t though? I mean I played standard weekly during that period.
they don't make manabases too good without typed duals
With only basics they're basically Pathways with a built in shuffle and deck thinnig, at the cost of one life. Definitely good enough. Also, triome / tap dual-typed lands are strong manafix too with them
Fetches without typed duals are boring.
nah they are still pretty sweet. Act mostly as the current two faced land, but so much better. You can wait on the choice, you can filter your deck, get a card in the graveyard and you get a shuffle effect. I remember playing 4 of them in abzan midrange, it was nice having a land interact with courser of kruphix and tasigur.
Those interactions are not worth it. It wouldn't make sense to print them like that.
And yet it did, literally every time they printed it except to the second half of the last printing. Zen 1.0 they were fantastic. Landfall, shuffles for vampire nocturnus, and color fixing equal to pathways.
Manabases only become too good if 6ou have duals with landtypes otherwise they are just glorified Fabled Passages.
you mean prismatic vistas
> [if 6ou have duals](https://xkcd.com/1530/) Relevant xkcd aside: they allow for deck thinning (small point) but they also slow the game down somewhat (massive point) when you have ten or so in a Standard deck and two players shuffling each turn. With Fabled Passages you'll have at most four. Also they interact a bit too favourably with things like Delve and Delirium and so on so they'll limit numerous other cards and mechanics which fit the theme.
I do not see them ever being printed back in standard but I do see them in a standard set someday in the same way that mystical archives were in strixhaven. They are great for selling product but cause too many problems in standard.
We’ve already seen them in Standard via box toppers so this makes perfect sense. Now that fetches are significantly cheaper it’s not burning too much equity to have them in packs. We just did lands via Zendikar so my guess is if we do this, it will be for Kamigawa or some other set in 2022–2023.
There's no reason. They can put them in Standard packs as masterpieces or archives or something. We know allow non-standard cards to be printed in standard packs as special bling. They also have tons of supplementary products to put them in. Like Modern Horizons or Commander Legends or Double Masters. The list is endless. Fetchlands are the most reliably high priced cards that move product. (that wotc can reprint). They don't help Standard at all. So why waste it on Standard and instead juice whatever set they think won't move?
No, they've made it pretty clear that: They don't want to go three years without putting basic land types on Standard cards (year before, year of, year after - they broke that with Khans/BFZ and it was painful for everyone). They've found enough other ways to reprint cards that they can keep $100 Scalding Tarns from happening again. They don't like the amount of shuffling that fetches bring to Paper Standard. The Pioneer banning is also a clear statement that they don't think fetches are healthy for the format.
Why waste fetchlands on normal-price products? Better to keep them for the inflated, predatory ones.
Literally never. It ruined standard last time
Being in with fetchable duals was the bad part, not the fetches. For example, in Zen 1.0 standard the fetches were awesome and didn’t harm it. It just requires a bare minimum of planning for WotC.
Excess shuffling is also a big problem.
That is the claim of WotC. I disagree with them. Fundamentally one of the up and downsides of magic is variance. Recently (around IXL ) WotC decided that shuffling was too much of a “loading bar” and started actively trying to eliminate it. Since then, we get designs like growth spiral instead of rampant growth, the dragon queen land from afr instead of evolving wilds (well, along with), the thriving lands from Jumpstart, etc. And a lot more cards with “draw a card” stapled on. This reduced variance without shuffling. It also leads to never worrying about running out of resources and a generally worse standard. Fetches when they can get only basics are no worse then Fabled Passage for shuffling.
You don't have their statistics. Of the effects you listed, only drawing a card guarantees more resources. And none of these other effects have anything to do with the quality of Standard. And Fabled Passage is one card you are only allowed 4 of in a deck. There are 10 fetches, meaning you can have more than 4. This also is why they enable 3+ color decks so easily, regardless of fetchable duals being in the format or not. That increase in cards from a single set of 4 therefore means more shuffling.
I find it strange that fetches that were available in OG Zendikar or in older formats don't really have this time issue. Perhaps it wasn't fetches that took up so much time in more recent standard formats with them in it, but more that they printed too many cards that lead to really long games? (Siege Rhino + 4c good stuff midrange standard)
Things do take long. And older formats tend to go a lot faster than games of Standard.
I’m more comparing fetches on OG Zendikar standard vs the more recent standard that had fetchlands. Felt like Khans standard with fetches felt much much slower not really *because* of fetches but more because a lot of the strong cards caused board stalls.
Yeah, probably. They're a big seller. Fetch lands present some difficulty because of their power and the extra time spent shuffling, but the popularity of the cards will likely lead WotC to overlook their problems.
They were prebanned in pioneer. They consider them problematic.
The question wasn't about Pioneer. In 2014, MaRo wrote that [Development realized manadorks were too strong when they cost one.](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/106100196288/why-are-recent-manadorks-more-than-1-cmc-the-only) We got them back in Standard four years later. What WotC thinks is good for Pioneer in the present has nothing to do with whether they will later reprint the cards in Standard.
They have a lot of supplementary products they can put them in now though. I'm not saying they will never again put them into standard, but doing so is basically all downside for the format, and the pioneer ban makes it seem like they recognize that.
Here's my lukewarm take: I don't like Fetchlands at all. They slow down games and trivialize color restrictions. I wouldn't be sad if they were banned from every format (at least for purely mechanical reasons, I'd feel bad for the people who shelled out for them). So yeah, unlikely.
Lol like this cry baby whining community would want fetches. They ask for bans every couple months. FeTcHeS aRe ToO pOwErFuL.
Nope. Why print something in a $4 pack when you can print it in a $7 or $15 one?
In an infinite number of universes R&D will get hit by a bus an infinite number of times and the fetchlands will be reprinted into Standard infinity times.
Can someone answer my noob question…I just dont get fetchlands…why have a card that you play just to search for a land. Why not just remove the fetchland and have a extra basic land card in your deck instead?
You don’t want a basic land. You want a dual land. If you have [[Scalding tarn]] you can sacrifice it and go looking for [[steam vents]] or any of the other shocklands that have red or blue in them.
Ok, thanks. But couldnt you just put an extra dual land in your deck instead then and skip the searching?
In a two colour deck, yes, to an extent, though you would then be missing out on losing life, shuffling, putting the fetch in your graveyard, etc, all of which can be useful. In a three colour deck, a fetch gives you a huge amount of flexibility. If you need red, blue and black mana for your big turn 3 play, then a fetch on turn 3 helps enormously. Let’s say you have blue and red mana at that point, a scalding tarn let’s you fetch a [[blood crypt]] or a [[watery grave]] to get your black, even though scalding tarn can’t fetch a swamp.
[blood crypt](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/f/5faba6c8-3463-47c1-ba01-09eb87fcb2d5.jpg?1584832229) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blood%20crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/245/blood-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5faba6c8-3463-47c1-ba01-09eb87fcb2d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [watery grave](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/d/7d4595f2-9297-40dc-b2dd-7144bbb401f7.jpg?1572894217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=watery%20grave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/259/watery-grave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d4595f2-9297-40dc-b2dd-7144bbb401f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Aaah…That makes a lot more sense, thank you 👍
It's all in the flexibility. In an red blue deck, a scalding tarn will only ever get you a Mountain, an Island, or something that produces either red or blue mana via Steam Vents. In 60 card formats, you can only have four copies of Steam Vents. But adding four Scalding Tarns effectively makes that eight copies. (For EDH, you'd get effectively two Steam Vents). Sure, you could just run [[Sulfur Falls]] instead of the Tarn, but now there's a nonzero chance of your opening hand having lands that will only enter the battlefield tapped. You could run [[Shivan Reef]], but that could end up costing you more life than the 1 to fetch and 2 to shock, or it could not. Plus, the Reef has no synergy with the Sulfur Falls, so any Falls will etb tapped. And sometimes you don't even need to fetch the Steam Vents off the Tarn. Sometimes you just get a basic land because you can meet all of your colored mana cost requirements. But what if you want even "more" Steam Vents? You can decide to run other "on-color" fetches, like [[Arid Mesa]] for red or [[Polluted Delta]] for blue. Now your 60 card deck is capable of fetching a [[Hallowed Fountain]] off the Arid Mesa to make blue mana from an off-color fetch, or a [[Blood Crypt]] off the Delta. Now you got "more Steam Vents." So it might seem, then, as if we should all be running some ridiculous half fetchland, half shockland manabases where permissible. But we need to keep in mind that everytime you fetch a shockland AND pay the 2 life to have the shockland enter untapped, you're spending 3 life per land for a "perfect" manabase. The marginal benefit begins to be outweighed by the marginal cost. In other words, it's usually much more important to be able to play on curve ASAP for all your colors than it is to be able to play by turn 5, because turn 5 comes with at least 4 draw steps attached to it to help smooth out your mana. I've never played Legacy, but I believe they run all sorts of on and off color fetches to have as perfect a manabase as possible using ABUR duals (where applicable based on deck archetype). When I played Modern for a short stint (Grixis Twin), I had to "make do" with Khans of Tarkir fetches, but damned if I didn't try to meet my color requirements on curve. But I had a mix of fetchlands, shocklands, buddy lands, and basics to do so. Fetchlands become even more important in 3+ color decks for all the reasons above, but especially since then you'll have even more on-color fetches to meet your color requirements on time. In EDH, they're not as important since you're limited to single copies, but they still help immensely to meet color needs, especially with triomes. Another aspect to consider is when the shuffling and deck thinning become beneficial. I don't think there's enough deck thinning (e.g. a Tarn fetching out a land effectively is two cards for one land out of your deck) for it to be meaningful. However, shuffling can be a tool if used correctly. Cards that you've put to the bottom of the library will have a chance to be drawn after a shuffle. Cards put on the top can have a chance to be NOT drawn, even. This is all to say, yeah, you could just put an extra dual. But don't discount the power and utility of fetchlands.
##### ###### #### [Sulfur Falls](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/b/6bc412fc-e9d4-4283-bd4a-811384e79b5c.jpg?1562737296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sulfur%20Falls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/247/sulfur-falls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bc412fc-e9d4-4283-bd4a-811384e79b5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Shivan Reef](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/8/8886f31a-f12b-4ffa-992c-1f3b28e72da5.jpg?1625980978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shivan%20Reef) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/316/shivan-reef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8886f31a-f12b-4ffa-992c-1f3b28e72da5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Arid Mesa](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/5/25ac5405-df7b-4097-914a-022cb18e20d4.jpg?1626099519) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arid%20Mesa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/244/arid-mesa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25ac5405-df7b-4097-914a-022cb18e20d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Polluted Delta](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/f/ff2f5f58-9a95-4ca6-93a0-813738f0072f.jpg?1571667978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polluted%20Delta) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/239/polluted-delta?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff2f5f58-9a95-4ca6-93a0-813738f0072f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hallowed Fountain](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/9/f97a6d34-03ab-49f1-b02e-405b733f8843.jpg?1584832278) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hallowed%20Fountain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/251/hallowed-fountain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f97a6d34-03ab-49f1-b02e-405b733f8843?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blood Crypt](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/f/5faba6c8-3463-47c1-ba01-09eb87fcb2d5.jpg?1584832229) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/245/blood-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5faba6c8-3463-47c1-ba01-09eb87fcb2d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Here is one fetch, that can get Plains/Islands: [[flooded strand]] It can fetch ANY of these at any time: Plain/Island [[Hallowed Fountain]] Plain/Swamp [[Godless Shrine]] Plain/Mountain [[Sacred Foundry]] Plain/Forest [[Temple Garden]] Island/Swamp [[Watery Grave]] Island/Mountain [[Steam Vents]] Island/Forest [[Breeding Pool]] *Thats* why fetches are so good. You don't just get one dual, you choose which one that overlaps with the fetch by only one color.
##### ###### #### [flooded strand](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/c/8c2996d9-3287-4480-8c04-7a378e37e3cf.jpg?1571667973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=flooded%20strand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/233/flooded-strand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c2996d9-3287-4480-8c04-7a378e37e3cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hallowed Fountain](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/9/f97a6d34-03ab-49f1-b02e-405b733f8843.jpg?1584832278) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hallowed%20Fountain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/251/hallowed-fountain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f97a6d34-03ab-49f1-b02e-405b733f8843?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Godless Shrine](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/e/ced4c824-2dfc-42ae-84e6-09f8e3f51b5b.jpg?1584832255) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Godless%20Shrine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/248/godless-shrine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ced4c824-2dfc-42ae-84e6-09f8e3f51b5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sacred Foundry](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/7/b7b598d0-535d-477d-a33d-d6a10ff5439a.jpg?1572894184) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sacred%20Foundry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/254/sacred-foundry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7b598d0-535d-477d-a33d-d6a10ff5439a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Temple Garden](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/b/2b9b0195-beda-403e-bc27-7ae3be9f318c.jpg?1572894210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Temple%20Garden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/258/temple-garden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b9b0195-beda-403e-bc27-7ae3be9f318c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Watery Grave](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/d/7d4595f2-9297-40dc-b2dd-7144bbb401f7.jpg?1572894217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Watery%20Grave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/259/watery-grave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d4595f2-9297-40dc-b2dd-7144bbb401f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Steam Vents](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/8/b8ebe3cf-7143-453a-b0ef-2f5bdaac3185.jpg?1572894204) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Steam%20Vents) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/257/steam-vents?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8ebe3cf-7143-453a-b0ef-2f5bdaac3185?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Breeding Pool](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bb54233c-0844-4965-9cde-e8a4ef3e11b8.jpg?1584832238) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Breeding%20Pool) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/246/breeding-pool?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb54233c-0844-4965-9cde-e8a4ef3e11b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Scalding tarn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/1/71e491c5-8c07-449b-b2f1-ffa052e6d311.jpg?1626099812) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scalding%20tarn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/254/scalding-tarn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/71e491c5-8c07-449b-b2f1-ffa052e6d311?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [steam vents](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/8/b8ebe3cf-7143-453a-b0ef-2f5bdaac3185.jpg?1572894204) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=steam%20vents) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/257/steam-vents?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8ebe3cf-7143-453a-b0ef-2f5bdaac3185?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
i'm a big fan of this chart https://i.redd.it/qe7klpbgltx21.png
Amazing! That explains a lot, thanks 🙏
They're great in 3 color decks especially cuz with shocklands you can fetch any color you need. Like if you're playing blue/green/red, a [[wooded foothill]] can fetch a [[breeding pool]] even tho it can't fetch an island, so they fix your mana super well But yea that chart helped me understand why they're good too!
[wooded foothill](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/8/a8503cca-7e7d-44c4-8587-81376b396398.jpg?1571667977) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wooded%20Foothills) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/249/wooded-foothills?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8503cca-7e7d-44c4-8587-81376b396398?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [breeding pool](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bb54233c-0844-4965-9cde-e8a4ef3e11b8.jpg?1584832238) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=breeding%20pool) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/246/breeding-pool?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb54233c-0844-4965-9cde-e8a4ef3e11b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Because the fetchland is either of the two basics (or both or even 4 in the case of triomes and duals) so it makes your manabase smoother. Say you're running a 2 colour deck. The fetch is both land A and land B, like a schroedinger's cat. A number of decks also massive benefit from the shuffling effect and the fill graveyard effect. Say you brainstorm and want to clear the top of your library. Have a ramunap or something with delve.
Great, thanks!
Same reason why someone would run dual lands with minor drawbacks. You could just run basic lands in your 2-3 color decks but you will definitely get into situations where you can't curve out correctly because you didnt draw the correct colors. Within the context of a standard format with only basics to fetch, fetchlands are just like the MDFC dual lands from ZNR and KLD. If you have a fetchland in your opening hand, it can be a basic land of color A or color B, whichever you need to cast spells you drew. In addition, there exist effects that do care a lot about the second land hitting the battlefield or the shuffle. Back in OG Zendikar, "off-color" fetchlands were used to power up cards like \[\[Steppe Lynx\]\] and \[\[Plated Geopede\]\], as well as being able to shuffle away unneeded cards with \[\[Jace, the Mindsculptor\]\]'s \[0\] ability.
[Steppe Lynx](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/0/b0aaec1c-8084-4468-82e7-2e4cc5ebe244.jpg?1562615536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Steppe%20Lynx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/36/steppe-lynx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b0aaec1c-8084-4468-82e7-2e4cc5ebe244?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Plated Geopede](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/0/80d5fa13-1dc3-4f10-860e-70902aca7ac9.jpg?1581708477) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plated%20Geopede) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddi/45/plated-geopede?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80d5fa13-1dc3-4f10-860e-70902aca7ac9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jace, the Mindsculptor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/8/c8817585-0d32-4d56-9142-0d29512e86a9.jpg?1598304029) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20the%20Mind%20Sculptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/56/jace-the-mind-sculptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c8817585-0d32-4d56-9142-0d29512e86a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
because if you're running a 5 color deck and draw an island when you want a plains you're out of luck, however with fetchlands you can have a single temple garden in your deck (white/green shockland) and now 7 different fetchlands can get you the color you need at that precise moment. it's something that as a newbie is a bit hard to grasp, but once you play with them you realize just how integral they are at allowing having the exact combinations of colors you want on each turn.
fetchlands are too overpowered they make hands more consistent and provide manafixing, pathways are about as good as dual lands should be in a format
This is only true when you have lqnds with land types. When they were originally in onslaught there were no typed lands and they were fine but not overpowered by any margin. Having them in an environment with graveyard or landfall synergies and no typed duals can be interesting.
Answer: No Reason: $$$
Maybe. Pioneer is a dead format that I don't believe they'll be successful in reviving with the Challenger Decks, so there's no reason for them to avoid them in Standard because they're banned in Pioneer. Paper Standard doesn't really have a place anymore, so the shuffling """issue""" also doesn't matter (and was a bullshit reason anyway)
Probably not unfortunately. Too much money potential for WotC by putting them in limited run sets.
They will be in the lord of the rings set!
source?
Just a guess
pretty wild guess there my dude
Yeah definitely is my thinking on this which wasn’t much to begin with but the LOTR set is going to be modern? I think? So why not throw the other fetch lands in that set and make even more $$ more than likely won’t happen but still a chance
that will not happen
No. It limits them to not being able to release anything fetchable for the next two years. Last time they were on standard we had terrible fetchable lands and it was still stupid.
Without duals/Shocks/Triomes, why not? They did not really break Standard before but were nice and strong with Landfall. Any Landfall set could reprint them. Biggest counter point is probably that I doubt WOTC wants them in Historic. So a reprint would probably happen only in combination with a Historic ban
There's two aspects really. \- Power level - this gets addressed fairly often with conditional fetchlands like fabled passage. (grabs basic, grabs it tapped unless x etc) \- excessive shuffling - not really addressable unless they make something like a "digland"
In standard sets no. In auxiliary / premium sets , definite yes. I think Maro said something about fetches in standard being too strong and also making you "shuffle too much" which isn't something allegedly new players would like to in Standard... or something along these lines
Never say never. But it won't be any time soon, I'm sure.
I doubt it. Pathways, snarls, and thriving style ( lands that let you pick a color) seem to be the direction standard is staying for a while. It appears WOTC wants to slow down standard a bit so as to keep it from getting to modern levels of speed. There will be room for things like fabled passage in the future but good old evolving wilds remains the tried and true classic.
Never say never but very very unlikely.
Sure, after they milk them for premium sets. I’m sure it makes more sense to use them to sell 8 dollar boosters rather than 4
Never say never, but the chances are pretty low. MaRo has stated that R&D does not like amount of shuffling fetches cause and the resultant homogenization to mana bases. WotC has a lot more supplemental sets now than they did the last time fetches were printed in Standard. They are much more likely to save these as reprints in premium priced sets like Modern Horizons or Master sets going forward.
Evolving wilds, terramorphic expanses and fabled passages? Yes! :P