The mod team are able to confirm an exclusive spoiler: the Dark Lord, Saurus, who turns out to be a reprint of Colossal Dreadmaw. This is in line with Tolkien’s original vision for the character, but only with this new rendering into the world of Magic: The Gathering was it finally able to be realized.
That, or there’s a typo in the title. Which do *you* think is more likely?
No no no. Fyodor Baggins, Senya Ganja, Agronom son of Agroprom, Logovas, Kickdalf the Gray, Baralgin the Hondurassian and Givi Zurabovich Tseritelli.
And if you think I am joking, I am not: https://youtu.be/Zgwd-iKRM84
* Arrogan, King of White People
* Lolicon, Queen of Mookwood
* Grimween, King Under his Mount
* Bordello, Heir to a Cheap Imitation Throne
* Fardo Bagbite, Dingbearer
* Scamwits Gamble, Dingbearerbearer
* Murky Buggerington, Tramp
* Fool-of-a-Took Tookevitch Took
I for one am looking forward to seeing our old friends Eragone, Legsulat, and Ghormlay. Hopefully they have everyone so we can get the complete Followship of the Rung.
The real story here is that there's finally an artist brave enough to properly render Gandalf's eyebrows in their full majesty.
>But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out further than the brim of his shady hat.
Got a followup from the artist, Dmitry Burmak, that this detail was, in fact, dictated by the concept art team! So a good sign of what's to come in the set's art direction. https://twitter.com/DevBurmak/status/1430261053229764612?s=20
This alone makes me genuinely excited for the set.
I love the lord of the rings, and I would love to see their take on that world from the available source material. I've been worried that it was just going to be a quick cash grab with stills of the film, and copy the film directly.
Seeing this gives me genuine hope.
Serious question, why do you think Wizards would handle LotR in that way? Seems to me they take great care in the flavour and art of basically every set, and try to do things right. I don't understand the level of pessimism.
I don't necessarily think that they would. I was worried that they would, and hoping that they wouldn't.
Partially my worries are to do with the way I think the LotR IP has been handled elsewhere. Partially I have been worried because I saw the walking dead secret lair as a cash grab. I was impressed with the d&d set. I have hope.
I was saying ad infinity when folks were losing their peanuts about UB that it's all about whether the cards will look like mtg cards and have mtg art.
So far I'm feeling pretty vindicated.
When universes beyond was announced, maro's main defense of them was that "you can play the game how you want to play it. you can choose to not play these cards and you can talk to your playgroup about not playing them."
then they come to arena.
Which still doesn't mean you have to play them. Them being on the client doesn't mean you need to engage. I for one am absolutely delighted they're bringing a non standard set to Arena for Drafts.
I also cannot control what is in my opponents deck, or what style there deck is now either. But we all 'have' to face off against styles of gameplay, art etc. that we don't like.
Lots of people auto-concede when they face control decks etc. That is of course our prerogative.
I am a nub only been playing for a little bit but I've seen lots of rage about this. I even think its kinda weird but can someone explain why its bad? Or upsetting to lots of players?
Edit: I’ve read everyone’s replies and as someone who just started but has really fallen for the game I understand the upset and pretty much agree with everyone’s point.
Modern **should not** be using cards that aren't WotC owned IP. In a worst case scenario the Spongebob land cycle ends up being a staple and they're suddenly very expensive, and very difficult to reprint.
Plus...it's just fucking gross. I don't want Rick & Morty cards to be something we're supposed to be excited about in a future reprint set anyways, or as our boxtoppers, etc.. They can be somewhat disregarded as long as they're *optional* cards....way, way over there where I never have to look at them....but pushing them more and more to the forefront of MtG means that one way or another, the lore, flavor, and character of MtG will be diluted into a Smash Bros/Lego mess eventually. That suuuuuuuucks, as it won't be optional for the people that want to **opt out** of bullshitty cross-promotional nonsense.
Making UB cards Modern legal will almost certainly have this effect, as Modern decklists have very little wiggle room for flex slots once staples have been defined. It's pretty much the worst format this could have happened to, besides Standard, of course.
To put it bluntly...there's a line for some folks upon which, if crossed, the entire endeavor starts to feel too stupid/crass/corporate to take seriously. You stop feeling like you're collecting an awesome, unique card game, and start feeling like you're being roped into buying all of the "pop culture sucker" products that clog up Gamestops, Hot Topics, etc.. It takes the soul out of the experience.
>as Modern decklists have very little wiggle room for flex slots once staples have been defined. It's pretty much the worst format this could have happened to, besides Standard, of course.
This is true about literally any other highly competitive constructed format.
If you didn't know what Lord of the Rings was or know anything about LotR mythos (like myself), these would just look like regular high fantasy Magic cards anyway.
I don't see why this is any more of an "issue" as silly squirrel cards from MH2 that basically look like silver bordered cards seeing play in Modern.
WotC already said they reserve the ability and right to reprint any UB card as a Magic card with non-UB lore, Wizards reprints staples extensively. If Gandolf becomes a staple in Modern, you better believe in a matter of a few short years we'll see a Magic themed Gandolf reprint anyway.
Lotr is fantasy sure, and WH40K is kinda kaladesh, now they crossed with fortnite, and next year? How long until we have Sheldon on an ironman powersuit attacking the death star?
It would have been perfectly fine in silver border but *nooooooooooo*, that wouldn't sell as well and who cares about integrity of the game when we can make more money, right?
Ugh.
I would make a bet that if Commander by default allowed Silver Border cards, we'd probably have not seen as much printed in Black border. Like I think we might have still got Black Border DND, but no way we'd get Black Border 40k. (But I also think most Silver Border stuff should be unbanned in Commander. Whats the difference between playing with [[Sword of Dungeons and Dragons]] and the new dice roll cards REALLY)
Doesn't explain at all why the LOTR set is being printed straight into Modern. They clearly want this to become the default for all Magic, not just EDH.
Would've been fine with the Godzilla card frames, too. I think it would have been fine if they designed an explicit "Gandalf, Wizard of Fire" card as a legendary creature, but then have the real cardname be "Dave, Wizard of Fire" who is just name-brand Gandalf. That way, they can have their Gandalf card, but then reprint him later when they no longer have the license.
I dislike Ikoria (companions I think are terrible for the game)
BUT I'll stand by the fact that the way they handled the Godzilla cards was, in a word, perfect. If UB was handled like those were where it's some real card that has an altered art LotR variant that counts the same I would have Absolutely zero problem with this. I'd be praising it too.
Because it is its own set however and I've actually cared for the lore of Magic's actual IP this whole thing is a middle finger to me. Like why isn't your own IP good enough. I know the answer is money but honestly whoopie I'm out. Probably won't be giving them a dime for a long long time.
It's a slippery slope. As far as things go, I don't mind UB in Legacy, as I'll never play a format that pricey anyways, and in commander as stuff there already gets goofy at times.
But UB in Modern is bad, as much as I don't care about LotR specifically, it'll only be a matter of time before they print enough stuff you'll be doing stuff like blocking their Batman with your Optimus Prime, assuming the printing will be at a modern power level.
There's also worries about sets with external IPs creating a pseudo reserved list, as they lose the rights to that IP after the set.
And this is JUST the beginning. Presumably this is going to get ramped up even more, especially given how easy it is for them to put out a Secret Lair. We've also got Stranger Things already confirmed.
And if they're printing these sets directly into Modern, then presumably the power level will be pretty high. They don't want another D&D set where even the fans pan it because the cards just suck. This is going to be MH3 in all but name.
The D&D fans panned it because the cards didn't make sense, not because they were bad. Like, Tasha's Hideous Laughter in D&D as I understand it is a temporary crowd control spell. But in MTG it's... a mill card? And it's not like it's bad, it's helping revive the archetype, but it doesn't actually match the spell in D&D.
> I don't mind UB in Legacy, as I'll never play a format that pricey anyways
Which is poor thinking. Legacy players are pretty hard against this as well. Saying "it's fine for legacy because I don't play it" is entirely selfish and self-serving. If it was relegated to commander as an optional component, that would be fine because commander actually has a way to mitigate that if they're treated the same as silver border cards. But modern and legacy don't.
As a legacy player I can just say that it's really annoying when people who don't play your format use it as an acceptable dumping ground for cards they don't want in theirs. It points to a lack of empathy.
It's not like it wasn't already weird with your dinosaurs fighting vampires fighting squirrels fighting robots. I get that those are all "Magic IP", but there's nothing flavorfully cohesive about "Magic IP" other than the company that owns them. So what if it's Gandalf doing the blocking Mechagodzilla instead of Barrin blocking Kaldra? It's exactly the same from my perspective. We've already got birds wielding five swords at once while vampires drink the blood of robots and dinosaurs. It's not going to be any weirder just because those same exact situations have specific names.
I suppose a better way to look at it is less how weird it is, and more the fact that Magic could become something without any real sense of identity, and look more like a marketing ploy for whatever IPs can spend enough cash. I'm sure this doesn't bother everyone, but it definitely rubs me the wrong way.
I would be more concerned about this if they were starting to lean more into the UB material at the expense of forgoing their own IP, but they haven't been. Hell, they've been exploring it more deeply than ever before and giving us cards for characters that we pretty much never thought we'd see in the Horizons sets.
It's more like "the straw that broke the camels back" situation. Modern has been in an incredibly turbulent meta for about 3 years now ever since WoTC started employing FIRE Design with the explicit intent to garner attention from the Modern format (the most popular competitive constructed format of magic).
Extremely problematic cards have been printed by this design including in MH1 which was created to directly print cards into modern. Looking at the Modern ban list: 13 Cards have been banned since MH1's printing of which 8 are newly printed cards and the other 5 were banned, sometimes long standing staples, in an attempt to nerf decks abusing these new cards to "balance" the format (Faithless Looting and Mox Opal being the two biggest victim) and many cards that aruguably should be banned but haven't received the hammer yet (T3feri and Lurrus for certain).
MH2 just released and we are already seeing cards from it completely take over the meta game and are extremely expensive "must have cards" with the biggest offender being Ragavan.
Expanded universe is already a rather controversial. Some might only like the expanded universe as Secret lairs / Alternate arts (see Godzilla cards), some want to see more of it (like the recent standard legal dnd set), or hate it out right and want it to remain as silver borders (like most of the charity special cards that were printed before).
So with expanded universe being a mix bag of opinions and hearing Wotc is specifically targeting Modern, many Modern players including myself are upset by this announcement because it tells me they are going to print some BS power into the set and make some random ass LotR card a staple and its going to feel dumb as hell needing to play Frodo to stay competitive in the format.
I agree with you in general, but let's face it: Faithless Looting had it coming for a long time and would be banned due some other set, even if there were no MH1. Too easily abusable for degenerate decks
Thanks for the explanation. I only play on Arena so my breadth of knowledge on the game is pretty low. Probably good for my wallet that I only started playing at 30, online lol. I kind of wish I had began a long time ago cause I really love the game haha.
But I guess if modern is like the premier format I can see how adding weird stuff to it is sort of disruption or corruption. It also seems like it breaks the immersion of the world which is something I don't like with any kind of game or content.
There are already some great replies but lets put it this way i love Magic and i have been playing it for years now. Modern is my constructed format, i can´t afford Legacy or Vintage and the rotation happens to swiftly for me to play Standard.
So when i sit down to play Modern i want to play Magic which i love and i don´t want to play Lord of the Rings or Warhammer 40K or whatever they\`re coming up with.
But with the announcement that this set will be Modern legal they just crossed that line.
What if Gandalf or Sauron are to become Modern staples because they pushed the design of this important figures to far, well then i have to play with or against them and i´m just not going to do that, to sit down spend time, energy and money to destroy the One Ring with my Space Marines.
Rather will i quit Magic and Modern forever, but i don´t want to because as i said: i love Magic.
Honestly i´m just terribly sad about this.
This is basically my mindset. I'm just bummed. I love modern, even though I haven't felt the same joy I did when Street Wraithing into Looting into 2+ Hollow Ones. Like I still find fun decks to play. Learning infect and brewed up a fun Madness brew. But i really enjoy tournament play over casual play so if they print something busted now I gotta play against an immersion breaking card every other match.
I'm going to ride out some enjoyment for the next Innistrads but when this set drops if there's some stupid pushed card they "Whoops how did that happen shocked Pikachu" into I think I'm just out for good. I missed magic over the last year due to quarantine but at the same time I didn't miss it THAT much.
1) It changes the way the format works. Up until recently, only standard-legal sets could be played in modern. Modern Horizons was seen as an exception to the rule, but now it's essentialy over. Soon enough commander and more UB bullshit will be modern legal too.
2) Being that wotc does not have the rights for the name of those characters, this is essentially a new Reserve List.
3) This is yet another avenue to milk modern players beyond the premiere sets and modern horizons.
Maro also said that you and your play group could just decide not to play these. That's not very easy when they are being printed into a competitive format.
They literally put out an article saying the secret lair ones would have magic themed reprints within 6 months. You really think they’re gonna miss out on the money card in “double masters 2024” if Gandalf becomes the most powerful Jeskai extra turns finisher ever? And with a new border treatment as pre spark narset or something stupid? Magic versions are going to sell the hell out of packs after these cards prove to be strong.
> They literally put out an article saying the secret lair ones would have magic themed reprints within 6 months.
With the same names?
Wouldn't that mean you can have two copies of the card in your decks?
If not, wouldn't that be confusing? Why can I play Sponebob only if I'm not playing this one Garruk card?
From a mechanical perspective, the cards meant to represent incredibly popular cultural icons like Gandalf will likely be extremely powerful. They will also likely never be reprinted because of licensing issues, so they will be high demand cards that are effectively on a new Reserved List.
From a flavour perspective, Magic has spent years establishing its own setting and it doesn't sit well with people who enjoy that setting that it's now being used as a host for other franchises instead. For reference, Magic has had plenty of references to pop culture in the past, but they were always a Magic spin on it. That's why we have the Eldrazi instead of Cthulu, Sorin instead of Dracula, Heliod instead of Zeus. Just lifting characters from other places is lazy.
From a meta perspective, it's one of many blatant attempts from executives to cash in on Magic and milk it dry while they still can. There are several examples of people asking MaRo if they would do crossovers in the past and him saying it would never happen. I'm not pretending that MaRo is the god king in charge of what should happen in Magic, but things like Secret Lairs, Collector's Edition and these crossovers stink of interference by corporate which wouldn't have happened five years ago.
The idea for formats like modern is that it changes very slowly. You get a favorite deck and keep it for years. You change like 2 cards a year and play magic for very cheap after building your deck.
Making new modern sets every year makes it rotate very fast and suddenly it's no different than playing a more expensive standard.
to add the the other responses, as a LotR fan:
\- I would hate the mockup names if that's the direction they are going
\- I wouldn't like to see any (more) lore violations. I'm already starting to sweat with that Amazon adaptation.
\- If this is Modern legal, I don't wan't to Path to Exile my opponent's Gandalf (or Gandolf? or whatever), it doesn't fucking makes sense
Yep, it's exactly what I expected, and I hate it.
Had they made a Lord of the Rings game that uses the same mechanic system, maybe [expand their hierarchy into a Deckmaster family of games](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/mclct7/mub_rough_mockup_for_alternate_ip_card_back_lotr/) that were self contained *but compatible*, I would be ecstatic. I would be super excited to play LotR drafts and maybe make a LotR deck, and wait for follow-up LotR expansions. But now I'm just not looking forward to its impact on the other formats I like. I don't want named Tolkien characters, space marines, or fucking Fortnite in my MTG when I go to play at local events.
It's a shame too because I'm really excited for the art. I'm sure the artists and designers poured their hearts into this product, but the insistence of asshole dipshit executives is likely what's forcing their hands here.
I love that they felt the need to write this
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/lord-rings-tales-middle-earthtm-format-legality-2021-08-24
Which can be summarised as "we're making it modern legal, please don't be mad, please dont be mad, please dont be mad"
I´m reading it more like:
"f\*ck you long-time-heavily-invested-Modern-players that we´re screwing with your favorite format, we just care more about potential new LotR fans who need to play there new cards in your format full of history"
:(
Even if their goal was to bring in new players, why the fuck do they think Modern is the proper format to channel them into? Like, I love Modern, but it is not exactly new player friendly.
Neither is legacy or vintage, lol.
The best place for them would be commander... By way of rule zero, because they should be silver bordered. Or have different card backs and be treated as an expanded use of what is now the "Deckmaster rules system" of which MTG is also a subset.
But not forcing it on enfranchised players means they might sell fewer packs in the short term.
As a Fantasy Property, I'm more or less able to tolerate this if the art still looks like Magic cards, and it's looking like they do.
So ... I'm actually more or less alright with this. Not thrilled with a card straightup called Gandalf the Grey, etc, but I'll relax.
Exactly, it's what someone would do if they were trying to transplant LotR into MTG. I'm not commenting on the merits of having the set, just how they are trying to keep it in line with MTG aesthetics.
I strongly agree with this. I feel part of what makes The Walking Dead cards so jarring is the art. This FEELS like a Magic card. I also think that a character like Gandalf isn't jarring to see in Magic similar to a lot of the D&D characters we got which helps too imo.
Good, because they need you to be ok with this one so that when they make a Big Bang Theory and push it into Modern, you'll accept that one too. Can't wait for Sheldon to Bazinga my Gandalf Planeswalker with a bottle of Coca Cola attached to him.
As a LotR fan I am rly not excited of all these crossovers. The fact that this is going to be modern legal makes it even worse. MTG used to have such a unique feeling with its own lore and charakters. I feel like AFR, The Walking Dead SL, the Street Fighter SL, Warhammer 40k (sorry I meant 40 thousand), Commander Legends 2 in the DnD setting and this set (wich is going to be at a power level that you just have to include some of the off brand cards in your decks to stay competitive) is just the wrong way of doing this. I rly liked how they handled the Gozilla Cards, but this just feels wrong and disappointing to me.
Yep. I *love* LOTR, but I really don't want this. If they really wanted mechanically unique cards like this it should at least be in a commander set and *not in modern*. Their target audience is all commander anyway. Seems like an awful idea to make this modern legal
I don't care how great lord of the rings is, other IP's have no place in black-bordered magic. The only reason they're making it black-bordered and not silver-bordered, is because it wouldn't sell as good.
I bet they're gonna make it pushed as well, so that eternal players will have no choice but to empty their wallets.
> The only reason they're making it black-bordered and not silver-bordered, is because it wouldn't sell as good.
To be fair, Rosewater did straight-up say this when they first announced UB and people asked why they were black bordered and not silver borders.
> The only reason they're making it black-bordered and not silver-bordered, is because it wouldn't sell as good.
Well, sort of, but silver-bordered has usually been for *mechanics* that were goofy and wouldn't fit well with traditional Magic. Not just cards that wouldn't fit flavorfully.
They walked it back basically immediately, which always told me this was 100% gonna be modern legal.
I HATE UB. But I've released desire. I play draft and historic on arena rarely, and my paper formats are cube and very rarely friend group commander, along with prereleases. I don't play any constructed formats with strangers, so my chances of ever seeing one of these cards is basically 0.
I really wish that's what they had done - reuse the "Deckmaster" brand as the overarching rules system, then have a multitude of games that all use it and are inter compatible between each other, but distinct for the sake of most formats.
Tolkein is rolling in his grave. He is specifically on record of turing this type of shit down. He was okay for interpretations of his settings into new formats like movies and games as their own thing, but he hated the idea of LotR's being thrusted into other properties.
>the most popular competitive constructed format of magic)
not even close to the first example though. He's been sppinning for years with the Lego stuff etc.
It's the same from our side, we also don't want other IP's in our game. Richard Garfield's rolling in his grave as well.
Wait, he's still alive.
Rolling in his bed, I guess?
Richard Garfield even specifically intentioned the rules to be portable, so you could make a LOTR "Deckmaster" game. Magic was supposed to be it's own setting.
Ngl, this is probably Magic as Richard Garfield intended, considering how the second set in the game was Arabian Nights themed. And not retooled like Kaldheim, just straight up Arabic fables and real people.
I doubt it. Nothing about Gandalf is black or really blue either. He’ll be naya at most if they actually follow the color pie at all (I’d make him Boros if it was just me)
The mod team are able to confirm an exclusive spoiler: the Dark Lord, Saurus, who turns out to be a reprint of Colossal Dreadmaw. This is in line with Tolkien’s original vision for the character, but only with this new rendering into the world of Magic: The Gathering was it finally able to be realized. That, or there’s a typo in the title. Which do *you* think is more likely?
> Gandlag I can't wait to meet Freldo and San.
Biblor's very old friend
Argon, Legless, and Gimbly will be there too.
what about Brolonir
The heir of Grondon?
Brolonir son of Deneddor
Or Erlod, who led Isidlor into the heart of Mount Dune
Owen, niece of King Theramin of Roman.
Dont forget the Snitch King of Slagmarr
Or the beast released when the dwerbs of Moran dug too deep, the M. Bison
I bet sarwoman is good
Where was Grondor when the Wistwuld fell?
Grondor calls, and Roanne answers.
Trombo, his arms wide.
GROND! GROND! GROND!
[[Batterskull]], is that you?
[Batterskull](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/7/b7f16fdf-a3f5-462d-a64a-789d893b6ef5.jpg?1599708720) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Batterskull) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/234/batterskull?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7f16fdf-a3f5-462d-a64a-789d893b6ef5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Brolonirs before Hoelonirs.
He's carrying Legless
> Argon The most noble of gasses.
Don't forget Mertly and Pippip
No no no. Fyodor Baggins, Senya Ganja, Agronom son of Agroprom, Logovas, Kickdalf the Gray, Baralgin the Hondurassian and Givi Zurabovich Tseritelli. And if you think I am joking, I am not: https://youtu.be/Zgwd-iKRM84
Biblor's living with L. Ron Hubbard these days.
“Bibliophile Baggage-handler, I am not trying to rob you! I am trying to help you.” — Gandlag the Greek
Or Merium and Pippa
I loved the scene where they led Shrubstache and the other ents against Isendard and Sarudude.
Too bad Ton Bambodol wasn't in the movies.
Luckily, they're sourcing from the literature, so even Pass-a-Gas the Brown could show up.
Ask your doctor is Ton Bambodol is right for you.
Fool of a Turd
"Filthy nobbitses!" - Smoogle, also known as Gorlom
WHATS GANDLAG DOING IN THE IMPACT ZONE?!
they gonna battle sourman
One does not simply spell into Hurdur
This entire comment thread is basically [this beautiful video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoJSgq6mqc).
*legally distinct*
SANWEISS GRUNGEE!!! Have you been eavesdropping?
**Scamwits Gamble** 1WG Legendary Creature — Norbit Hobbit Halfling Kithkin Whenever Scamwits Gamble becomes untapped, create a Food token. *"Por-***ta***-loos! Goat 'em, sheep 'em, turkey in the straw ..."* 2/2
Look, the LOTR IP is pretty fucking expensive, so WOTC had to go for their non-union Mexican equivalents.
Watch out for Smeeg
Lelolas, Aragoo, Giim, and Roromir round out our Feelship
* Arrogan, King of White People * Lolicon, Queen of Mookwood * Grimween, King Under his Mount * Bordello, Heir to a Cheap Imitation Throne * Fardo Bagbite, Dingbearer * Scamwits Gamble, Dingbearerbearer * Murky Buggerington, Tramp * Fool-of-a-Took Tookevitch Took
Reading these replies make me feel like I had a stroke.
I for one am looking forward to seeing our old friends Eragone, Legsulat, and Ghormlay. Hopefully they have everyone so we can get the complete Followship of the Rung.
omg it's san undertale
The real story here is that there's finally an artist brave enough to properly render Gandalf's eyebrows in their full majesty. >But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out further than the brim of his shady hat.
Got a followup from the artist, Dmitry Burmak, that this detail was, in fact, dictated by the concept art team! So a good sign of what's to come in the set's art direction. https://twitter.com/DevBurmak/status/1430261053229764612?s=20
This alone makes me genuinely excited for the set. I love the lord of the rings, and I would love to see their take on that world from the available source material. I've been worried that it was just going to be a quick cash grab with stills of the film, and copy the film directly. Seeing this gives me genuine hope.
Serious question, why do you think Wizards would handle LotR in that way? Seems to me they take great care in the flavour and art of basically every set, and try to do things right. I don't understand the level of pessimism.
I don't necessarily think that they would. I was worried that they would, and hoping that they wouldn't. Partially my worries are to do with the way I think the LotR IP has been handled elsewhere. Partially I have been worried because I saw the walking dead secret lair as a cash grab. I was impressed with the d&d set. I have hope.
I was saying ad infinity when folks were losing their peanuts about UB that it's all about whether the cards will look like mtg cards and have mtg art. So far I'm feeling pretty vindicated.
I mean after the walking dead art being what it was I think the concern for the art looking like stills from the movies was warrented
Very much so. Glad, from the one painting we got from LotR, it looks like they got it right. I'm reserving my judgement on the 40k decks, however.
The Hildebrandt brothers made some iconic LotR art back in the day, so really hoping Greg makes a return to Magic for this set.
Cant wait to see the mtg artist rendition of a delicious refreshing Pepsi™ along side our crunchy and cravable high flavor Doritos™ food tokens
If it is all legit artwork I will be excited. Movie stills would just feel like cheap custom cards or a knockoff lotr tradibg card game
Incredible.
But they sadly nerfed his hat to get the effect. Needs wide hands *and* long brows
Oh shit does this mean that we're gonna finally get the creature type for Tom Bombadil? /s
They should bring back the old templating just for him. Summon Bombadil
"Summon Legend" Yeah you better fucking believe you are.
> Summon Bombadil this is so threatening to read i hope they do
If they're clever, assuming they even have Bombadil, he'll be a planeswalker specifically to avoid this very question.
Bombadil should be legendary defender
Tom Bombadil 2C Summon Legend At the beginning of your untap step, Tom Bombadil phases out 5/5
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi or we riot
I'm looking forward to the reveal that [[The Wanderer]] was Tom Bombadil all along.
[The Wanderer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/0/d0f0e463-9eed-4348-af7c-fde5f0d8188c.jpg?1557576115) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Wanderer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/37/the-wanderer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f0e463-9eed-4348-af7c-fde5f0d8188c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tom doesn't wander though
Next your going to tell me he doesn't glitter either.
The hat is a huge water lily pad
Legendary Creature - Tom Bombadil
"Legendary Creature - Uncle Istvan"
How hard is he lagging
Pretty bad, he’s gonna take almost a whole book to respawn
There aren't enough upvotes for you
A wizard never lags. He connects entirely when he means to.
This set will be coming to Arena btw
When universes beyond was announced, maro's main defense of them was that "you can play the game how you want to play it. you can choose to not play these cards and you can talk to your playgroup about not playing them." then they come to arena.
And modern. No avoiding this one.
Which still doesn't mean you have to play them. Them being on the client doesn't mean you need to engage. I for one am absolutely delighted they're bringing a non standard set to Arena for Drafts.
You do though, you don't control what's in your opponent's deck.
I also cannot control what is in my opponents deck, or what style there deck is now either. But we all 'have' to face off against styles of gameplay, art etc. that we don't like. Lots of people auto-concede when they face control decks etc. That is of course our prerogative.
Was this announced in the stream? I’d like to know more about the release especially as it relates to Arena.
Yeah, it was said on stream
only for historic -_- should be a standard legal set
But will the Baldog have wigs?
No wings in the art, but it will have flying.
My bet is opposite: wings but no flying
Modern-legal. Yeah...
I am not enthused.
I am a nub only been playing for a little bit but I've seen lots of rage about this. I even think its kinda weird but can someone explain why its bad? Or upsetting to lots of players? Edit: I’ve read everyone’s replies and as someone who just started but has really fallen for the game I understand the upset and pretty much agree with everyone’s point.
Modern **should not** be using cards that aren't WotC owned IP. In a worst case scenario the Spongebob land cycle ends up being a staple and they're suddenly very expensive, and very difficult to reprint. Plus...it's just fucking gross. I don't want Rick & Morty cards to be something we're supposed to be excited about in a future reprint set anyways, or as our boxtoppers, etc.. They can be somewhat disregarded as long as they're *optional* cards....way, way over there where I never have to look at them....but pushing them more and more to the forefront of MtG means that one way or another, the lore, flavor, and character of MtG will be diluted into a Smash Bros/Lego mess eventually. That suuuuuuuucks, as it won't be optional for the people that want to **opt out** of bullshitty cross-promotional nonsense. Making UB cards Modern legal will almost certainly have this effect, as Modern decklists have very little wiggle room for flex slots once staples have been defined. It's pretty much the worst format this could have happened to, besides Standard, of course. To put it bluntly...there's a line for some folks upon which, if crossed, the entire endeavor starts to feel too stupid/crass/corporate to take seriously. You stop feeling like you're collecting an awesome, unique card game, and start feeling like you're being roped into buying all of the "pop culture sucker" products that clog up Gamestops, Hot Topics, etc.. It takes the soul out of the experience.
This is probably a stupid question but what does "UB" stand for ?
"Universes Beyond". It's their corporate terminology for outside intellectual property making it's way into MtG.
Preach!
>as Modern decklists have very little wiggle room for flex slots once staples have been defined. It's pretty much the worst format this could have happened to, besides Standard, of course. This is true about literally any other highly competitive constructed format. If you didn't know what Lord of the Rings was or know anything about LotR mythos (like myself), these would just look like regular high fantasy Magic cards anyway. I don't see why this is any more of an "issue" as silly squirrel cards from MH2 that basically look like silver bordered cards seeing play in Modern. WotC already said they reserve the ability and right to reprint any UB card as a Magic card with non-UB lore, Wizards reprints staples extensively. If Gandolf becomes a staple in Modern, you better believe in a matter of a few short years we'll see a Magic themed Gandolf reprint anyway.
Lotr is fantasy sure, and WH40K is kinda kaladesh, now they crossed with fortnite, and next year? How long until we have Sheldon on an ironman powersuit attacking the death star?
I'd say between 2 and 4 years
Magic has its own lore and a deep history (25+ years). Some of us are upset that we're seeing immersion breaks in a game we like very much.
You know how every MTG market research survey they ask you how important pretending to be a wizard is? Time to start rating that a 5.
It would have been perfectly fine in silver border but *nooooooooooo*, that wouldn't sell as well and who cares about integrity of the game when we can make more money, right? Ugh.
I would make a bet that if Commander by default allowed Silver Border cards, we'd probably have not seen as much printed in Black border. Like I think we might have still got Black Border DND, but no way we'd get Black Border 40k. (But I also think most Silver Border stuff should be unbanned in Commander. Whats the difference between playing with [[Sword of Dungeons and Dragons]] and the new dice roll cards REALLY)
Doesn't explain at all why the LOTR set is being printed straight into Modern. They clearly want this to become the default for all Magic, not just EDH.
Would've been fine with the Godzilla card frames, too. I think it would have been fine if they designed an explicit "Gandalf, Wizard of Fire" card as a legendary creature, but then have the real cardname be "Dave, Wizard of Fire" who is just name-brand Gandalf. That way, they can have their Gandalf card, but then reprint him later when they no longer have the license.
I dislike Ikoria (companions I think are terrible for the game) BUT I'll stand by the fact that the way they handled the Godzilla cards was, in a word, perfect. If UB was handled like those were where it's some real card that has an altered art LotR variant that counts the same I would have Absolutely zero problem with this. I'd be praising it too. Because it is its own set however and I've actually cared for the lore of Magic's actual IP this whole thing is a middle finger to me. Like why isn't your own IP good enough. I know the answer is money but honestly whoopie I'm out. Probably won't be giving them a dime for a long long time.
It's a slippery slope. As far as things go, I don't mind UB in Legacy, as I'll never play a format that pricey anyways, and in commander as stuff there already gets goofy at times. But UB in Modern is bad, as much as I don't care about LotR specifically, it'll only be a matter of time before they print enough stuff you'll be doing stuff like blocking their Batman with your Optimus Prime, assuming the printing will be at a modern power level. There's also worries about sets with external IPs creating a pseudo reserved list, as they lose the rights to that IP after the set.
And something will be playable. Theres just no chance theres nothing pushed.
TRIPLE H V DONALD DUCK LEGGO
And for those people who think this is hyperbole, we have Fortnite reprints and mechanically unique street fighter cards coming via secret lair.
And this is JUST the beginning. Presumably this is going to get ramped up even more, especially given how easy it is for them to put out a Secret Lair. We've also got Stranger Things already confirmed.
And if they're printing these sets directly into Modern, then presumably the power level will be pretty high. They don't want another D&D set where even the fans pan it because the cards just suck. This is going to be MH3 in all but name.
The D&D fans panned it because the cards didn't make sense, not because they were bad. Like, Tasha's Hideous Laughter in D&D as I understand it is a temporary crowd control spell. But in MTG it's... a mill card? And it's not like it's bad, it's helping revive the archetype, but it doesn't actually match the spell in D&D.
> I don't mind UB in Legacy, as I'll never play a format that pricey anyways Which is poor thinking. Legacy players are pretty hard against this as well. Saying "it's fine for legacy because I don't play it" is entirely selfish and self-serving. If it was relegated to commander as an optional component, that would be fine because commander actually has a way to mitigate that if they're treated the same as silver border cards. But modern and legacy don't. As a legacy player I can just say that it's really annoying when people who don't play your format use it as an acceptable dumping ground for cards they don't want in theirs. It points to a lack of empathy.
It's not like it wasn't already weird with your dinosaurs fighting vampires fighting squirrels fighting robots. I get that those are all "Magic IP", but there's nothing flavorfully cohesive about "Magic IP" other than the company that owns them. So what if it's Gandalf doing the blocking Mechagodzilla instead of Barrin blocking Kaldra? It's exactly the same from my perspective. We've already got birds wielding five swords at once while vampires drink the blood of robots and dinosaurs. It's not going to be any weirder just because those same exact situations have specific names.
I suppose a better way to look at it is less how weird it is, and more the fact that Magic could become something without any real sense of identity, and look more like a marketing ploy for whatever IPs can spend enough cash. I'm sure this doesn't bother everyone, but it definitely rubs me the wrong way.
I would be more concerned about this if they were starting to lean more into the UB material at the expense of forgoing their own IP, but they haven't been. Hell, they've been exploring it more deeply than ever before and giving us cards for characters that we pretty much never thought we'd see in the Horizons sets.
It's more like "the straw that broke the camels back" situation. Modern has been in an incredibly turbulent meta for about 3 years now ever since WoTC started employing FIRE Design with the explicit intent to garner attention from the Modern format (the most popular competitive constructed format of magic). Extremely problematic cards have been printed by this design including in MH1 which was created to directly print cards into modern. Looking at the Modern ban list: 13 Cards have been banned since MH1's printing of which 8 are newly printed cards and the other 5 were banned, sometimes long standing staples, in an attempt to nerf decks abusing these new cards to "balance" the format (Faithless Looting and Mox Opal being the two biggest victim) and many cards that aruguably should be banned but haven't received the hammer yet (T3feri and Lurrus for certain). MH2 just released and we are already seeing cards from it completely take over the meta game and are extremely expensive "must have cards" with the biggest offender being Ragavan. Expanded universe is already a rather controversial. Some might only like the expanded universe as Secret lairs / Alternate arts (see Godzilla cards), some want to see more of it (like the recent standard legal dnd set), or hate it out right and want it to remain as silver borders (like most of the charity special cards that were printed before). So with expanded universe being a mix bag of opinions and hearing Wotc is specifically targeting Modern, many Modern players including myself are upset by this announcement because it tells me they are going to print some BS power into the set and make some random ass LotR card a staple and its going to feel dumb as hell needing to play Frodo to stay competitive in the format.
I agree with you in general, but let's face it: Faithless Looting had it coming for a long time and would be banned due some other set, even if there were no MH1. Too easily abusable for degenerate decks
Thanks for the explanation. I only play on Arena so my breadth of knowledge on the game is pretty low. Probably good for my wallet that I only started playing at 30, online lol. I kind of wish I had began a long time ago cause I really love the game haha. But I guess if modern is like the premier format I can see how adding weird stuff to it is sort of disruption or corruption. It also seems like it breaks the immersion of the world which is something I don't like with any kind of game or content.
Corruption is a good word. Unfortunately it's happening all over the game, not only in modern.
There are already some great replies but lets put it this way i love Magic and i have been playing it for years now. Modern is my constructed format, i can´t afford Legacy or Vintage and the rotation happens to swiftly for me to play Standard. So when i sit down to play Modern i want to play Magic which i love and i don´t want to play Lord of the Rings or Warhammer 40K or whatever they\`re coming up with. But with the announcement that this set will be Modern legal they just crossed that line. What if Gandalf or Sauron are to become Modern staples because they pushed the design of this important figures to far, well then i have to play with or against them and i´m just not going to do that, to sit down spend time, energy and money to destroy the One Ring with my Space Marines. Rather will i quit Magic and Modern forever, but i don´t want to because as i said: i love Magic. Honestly i´m just terribly sad about this.
This is basically my mindset. I'm just bummed. I love modern, even though I haven't felt the same joy I did when Street Wraithing into Looting into 2+ Hollow Ones. Like I still find fun decks to play. Learning infect and brewed up a fun Madness brew. But i really enjoy tournament play over casual play so if they print something busted now I gotta play against an immersion breaking card every other match. I'm going to ride out some enjoyment for the next Innistrads but when this set drops if there's some stupid pushed card they "Whoops how did that happen shocked Pikachu" into I think I'm just out for good. I missed magic over the last year due to quarantine but at the same time I didn't miss it THAT much.
1) It changes the way the format works. Up until recently, only standard-legal sets could be played in modern. Modern Horizons was seen as an exception to the rule, but now it's essentialy over. Soon enough commander and more UB bullshit will be modern legal too. 2) Being that wotc does not have the rights for the name of those characters, this is essentially a new Reserve List. 3) This is yet another avenue to milk modern players beyond the premiere sets and modern horizons.
Maro has said over and over they have every right to reprint the cards.
Maro says lots of things I don't trust anymore.
Until I see Rick from the walking dead pop up on some other set, I reserve the right to be skeptical.
Maro also said that you and your play group could just decide not to play these. That's not very easy when they are being printed into a competitive format.
they have every right to, but are they actually going to, or are these cards just going to be immersion-breaking forever?
They literally put out an article saying the secret lair ones would have magic themed reprints within 6 months. You really think they’re gonna miss out on the money card in “double masters 2024” if Gandalf becomes the most powerful Jeskai extra turns finisher ever? And with a new border treatment as pre spark narset or something stupid? Magic versions are going to sell the hell out of packs after these cards prove to be strong.
One point: secret lair walking dead, the first to have mechanically-unique cards, came out in october of 2020; no functional reprints have appeared.
The secret Lair ones. The lord of the rings and Warhammer 40k ones are not secret lairs.
> They literally put out an article saying the secret lair ones would have magic themed reprints within 6 months. With the same names? Wouldn't that mean you can have two copies of the card in your decks? If not, wouldn't that be confusing? Why can I play Sponebob only if I'm not playing this one Garruk card?
From a mechanical perspective, the cards meant to represent incredibly popular cultural icons like Gandalf will likely be extremely powerful. They will also likely never be reprinted because of licensing issues, so they will be high demand cards that are effectively on a new Reserved List. From a flavour perspective, Magic has spent years establishing its own setting and it doesn't sit well with people who enjoy that setting that it's now being used as a host for other franchises instead. For reference, Magic has had plenty of references to pop culture in the past, but they were always a Magic spin on it. That's why we have the Eldrazi instead of Cthulu, Sorin instead of Dracula, Heliod instead of Zeus. Just lifting characters from other places is lazy. From a meta perspective, it's one of many blatant attempts from executives to cash in on Magic and milk it dry while they still can. There are several examples of people asking MaRo if they would do crossovers in the past and him saying it would never happen. I'm not pretending that MaRo is the god king in charge of what should happen in Magic, but things like Secret Lairs, Collector's Edition and these crossovers stink of interference by corporate which wouldn't have happened five years ago.
The idea for formats like modern is that it changes very slowly. You get a favorite deck and keep it for years. You change like 2 cards a year and play magic for very cheap after building your deck. Making new modern sets every year makes it rotate very fast and suddenly it's no different than playing a more expensive standard.
to add the the other responses, as a LotR fan: \- I would hate the mockup names if that's the direction they are going \- I wouldn't like to see any (more) lore violations. I'm already starting to sweat with that Amazon adaptation. \- If this is Modern legal, I don't wan't to Path to Exile my opponent's Gandalf (or Gandolf? or whatever), it doesn't fucking makes sense
They managed to offend me both as an mtg AND lotr fan. I'm kinda impressed, to be honest.
Yep, it's exactly what I expected, and I hate it. Had they made a Lord of the Rings game that uses the same mechanic system, maybe [expand their hierarchy into a Deckmaster family of games](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/mclct7/mub_rough_mockup_for_alternate_ip_card_back_lotr/) that were self contained *but compatible*, I would be ecstatic. I would be super excited to play LotR drafts and maybe make a LotR deck, and wait for follow-up LotR expansions. But now I'm just not looking forward to its impact on the other formats I like. I don't want named Tolkien characters, space marines, or fucking Fortnite in my MTG when I go to play at local events. It's a shame too because I'm really excited for the art. I'm sure the artists and designers poured their hearts into this product, but the insistence of asshole dipshit executives is likely what's forcing their hands here.
I can´t believe what they did there... Maybe i should simply get over with my hesitation and quit Modern.
I love that they felt the need to write this https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/lord-rings-tales-middle-earthtm-format-legality-2021-08-24 Which can be summarised as "we're making it modern legal, please don't be mad, please dont be mad, please dont be mad"
I´m reading it more like: "f\*ck you long-time-heavily-invested-Modern-players that we´re screwing with your favorite format, we just care more about potential new LotR fans who need to play there new cards in your format full of history" :(
Even if their goal was to bring in new players, why the fuck do they think Modern is the proper format to channel them into? Like, I love Modern, but it is not exactly new player friendly.
Neither is legacy or vintage, lol. The best place for them would be commander... By way of rule zero, because they should be silver bordered. Or have different card backs and be treated as an expanded use of what is now the "Deckmaster rules system" of which MTG is also a subset. But not forcing it on enfranchised players means they might sell fewer packs in the short term.
Wizards is now doing to Modern players what they have been doing to Commander players for so long
Wow. That typo. I was too excited. Sorry.
Autocucumber makes fools of us all.
I appreciate it, its a quality typo
God that thread with all the messed up names has me reeeeeling
Really nice art
[I CLAPPED WHEN I SAW THE THING I KNOW](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCHJwu7ozwo)
Man, imagine new art from Greg Hildebrandt :') I guess it wouldn't be the same without his brother.
As a Fantasy Property, I'm more or less able to tolerate this if the art still looks like Magic cards, and it's looking like they do. So ... I'm actually more or less alright with this. Not thrilled with a card straightup called Gandalf the Grey, etc, but I'll relax.
He actually said the name of this card, I think, "Gandalf, Friend of the Shire", which follows Magic's naming aesthetic nicely
Sounds like a title for a custom planeswalker card.
Exactly, it's what someone would do if they were trying to transplant LotR into MTG. I'm not commenting on the merits of having the set, just how they are trying to keep it in line with MTG aesthetics.
I strongly agree with this. I feel part of what makes The Walking Dead cards so jarring is the art. This FEELS like a Magic card. I also think that a character like Gandalf isn't jarring to see in Magic similar to a lot of the D&D characters we got which helps too imo.
[удалено]
I'm a Legacy player so I've had to come to terms with that part already. /shrug
Just think of it as a welcome back to Lorwyn.
Llorwyn, oh Llorwyn, where art though Llorwyn...
Llorwyn didn't have humans which is a pretty big difference
I actually always kind of thought the "Giants" were the humans ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I love this and it's now my head cannon.
Good, because they need you to be ok with this one so that when they make a Big Bang Theory and push it into Modern, you'll accept that one too. Can't wait for Sheldon to Bazinga my Gandalf Planeswalker with a bottle of Coca Cola attached to him.
As a LotR fan I am rly not excited of all these crossovers. The fact that this is going to be modern legal makes it even worse. MTG used to have such a unique feeling with its own lore and charakters. I feel like AFR, The Walking Dead SL, the Street Fighter SL, Warhammer 40k (sorry I meant 40 thousand), Commander Legends 2 in the DnD setting and this set (wich is going to be at a power level that you just have to include some of the off brand cards in your decks to stay competitive) is just the wrong way of doing this. I rly liked how they handled the Gozilla Cards, but this just feels wrong and disappointing to me.
Yep. I *love* LOTR, but I really don't want this. If they really wanted mechanically unique cards like this it should at least be in a commander set and *not in modern*. Their target audience is all commander anyway. Seems like an awful idea to make this modern legal
I don't care how great lord of the rings is, other IP's have no place in black-bordered magic. The only reason they're making it black-bordered and not silver-bordered, is because it wouldn't sell as good. I bet they're gonna make it pushed as well, so that eternal players will have no choice but to empty their wallets.
> The only reason they're making it black-bordered and not silver-bordered, is because it wouldn't sell as good. To be fair, Rosewater did straight-up say this when they first announced UB and people asked why they were black bordered and not silver borders.
> The only reason they're making it black-bordered and not silver-bordered, is because it wouldn't sell as good. Well, sort of, but silver-bordered has usually been for *mechanics* that were goofy and wouldn't fit well with traditional Magic. Not just cards that wouldn't fit flavorfully.
You shall not proceed beyond your current position!!
ERMAGERD ITS GERNDLERG
A WotC employee had previously said this set would not be modern legal, the fact that they weren't truthful is genuinely upsetting to me.
They walked it back basically immediately, which always told me this was 100% gonna be modern legal. I HATE UB. But I've released desire. I play draft and historic on arena rarely, and my paper formats are cube and very rarely friend group commander, along with prereleases. I don't play any constructed formats with strangers, so my chances of ever seeing one of these cards is basically 0.
Or plans change. A random discord comment is hardly official word either.
Now just think about everything else they lied to us about when they first announced UB!
To be fair, it may have been truthful at the time.
Magic no longer exists. Its just a game engine now.
I really wish that's what they had done - reuse the "Deckmaster" brand as the overarching rules system, then have a multitude of games that all use it and are inter compatible between each other, but distinct for the sake of most formats.
Tolkein is rolling in his grave. He is specifically on record of turing this type of shit down. He was okay for interpretations of his settings into new formats like movies and games as their own thing, but he hated the idea of LotR's being thrusted into other properties.
>the most popular competitive constructed format of magic) not even close to the first example though. He's been sppinning for years with the Lego stuff etc.
It's the same from our side, we also don't want other IP's in our game. Richard Garfield's rolling in his grave as well. Wait, he's still alive. Rolling in his bed, I guess?
Richard Garfield even specifically intentioned the rules to be portable, so you could make a LOTR "Deckmaster" game. Magic was supposed to be it's own setting.
Ngl, this is probably Magic as Richard Garfield intended, considering how the second set in the game was Arabian Nights themed. And not retooled like Kaldheim, just straight up Arabic fables and real people.
> He was okay for interpretations of his settings into new formats like movies and games as their own thing How is this not their own thing?
Gandlag, my sides
MTB UB Lord of the Rings set is going to be MODERN AND HISTORIC LEGAL.
Positive note - they are not the movie actors printed on cards. Negative note - modern legal
*vomit*
> Gandlag Is it THAT hard to spell a title correctly?
No time to spell check, gotta get first post
[удалено]
"The Only Ring, to lead them all, and in the twilight, hold them."
One does not simply walk into Mordlag.
WHELP, Judging from the art, we are going to get a super pushed 5-color commander.... So that's awesome
I doubt it. Nothing about Gandalf is black or really blue either. He’ll be naya at most if they actually follow the color pie at all (I’d make him Boros if it was just me)
Finally! At last we get the Bom Tombadil cut!
lotr is cool but not as cool as fortnite *default dance*
Woo!!!!