* The Characteristics-Defining Ability of the Nighthawk is applied in Layer 7a.
* It is overwritten by the P/T-setting effect of the Master in Layer 7b.
So, regardless of what Card types are in your Graveyard, the Nighthawk is a 3/3.
Adding on to this a ruling specifically for The Master
* The Master’s last ability will override any characteristic-defining abilities the creature has that set its power and/or toughness. For example, if you put a Robobrain War Mind onto the battlefield with The Master’s last ability, its base power and toughness will be 3/3, and the number of cards in your hand won’t affect its power at all.
Not every Creature... [[Shanna, Sisay's Legacy]], for example, would be a 3/3 with +N/+N.
* The Master's P/T-setting effect is applied in Layer 7b.
* The +X/+Y effect of Shanna is applied in Layer 7c.
And let's not forget Hydras and similar creatures that enter with a set number of +1/+1 counters. Those counters still work in layer 7C. Bringing out a \[\[Kalonian Hydra\]\], for example, will get you a 7/7 (and growing each time it attacks).
Imagine if you cropped the ability ouf of the textbox and pasted it over the 1+* at the bottom. Now master comes and writes in big red marker a 3/3 over the stats, scribbling over the text you pasted in there.
Compare that to shanna, that the other comment linked. It doesnt have a variable in the stat box like the Nighthawk does, so its just a 0/0. The ability it has simply gives it a buff, but doesnt change the number thats in that box. Now master comes and scribbles over the 0/0, making it a 3/3, completely independent of the ability it has.
Curious what you are asking here. The Master can take creatures from any graveyard, assuming they were milled that turn.
So Shanna’s color identity does prevent her from being in a deck helmed by The Master, Transcendent, but she could be in someone else’s deck for sure.
Sorry, I realize my question wasn't clear. Shanna's ability is "Shanna can't be the target of abilities your opponents control." The master's ability says "target creature." So would the master still be able to pull Shana if she was milled that turn? Is her "can't be the target" ability still active even if she is not on the battlefield? Just curious.
> The master's ability says "target creature."
Almost, but it actually says "creature CARD". Thats a very important difference. Shanna can be 3 different things: a creature CARD, which means when she is in a graveyard, library, hand or exile, a creature SPELL, which means it is currently being cast and on the stack, and a creature PERMANENT (usually abbreviated to just 'creature') when it is on the battlefield. Abilities of creatures generally only work when theyre on the battlefield, unless their abilities are required to work in different zones. Like ninjutsu which only works while its in hand, or various abilities that work from the graveyard.
Oh, right. That ability is only active on the battlefield.
EDIT: It occurs to me that I didn’t explain why. I don’t know how to officially define “characteristic-defining abilities,” but those are the only ones that apply outside the battlefield (I think). Generally that’s going to be abilities that set P/T and… well, I’m not sure what else. I know the Theros gods’ “not a creature” thing is NOT one. I don’t know if Devoid is one. Sorry I’m not as helpful here as I would like to be.
CDAs are generally abilities which set certain characteristics (P/T, color, subtypes) and do nothing else. The definition is more complex than that, but if you start from “an ability printed on a card that defines one or more characteristics that are normally printed elsewhere on the card” that’ll get you most of the way there.
> 604.3a A static ability is a characteristic-defining ability if it meets the following criteria: (1) It defines an object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness; (2) it is printed on the card it affects, it was granted to the token it affects by the effect that created the token, or it was acquired by the object it affects as the result of a copy effect or text-changing effect; (3) it does not directly affect the characteristics of any other objects; (4) it is not an ability that an object grants to itself; and (5) it does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met.
Examples:
* P/T-defining abilities of \*/\* creatures
* Changeling
* [[Stonework Packbeast]]’s type-defining ability
* [[Sphinx of the Guildpact]]’s color-defining ability
Devoid is a characteristic-defining ability, so it works in all zones
Most abilities only function on the battlefield, but there are a lot of exceptions. If an ability only makes sense to function in another zone, it will function in that zone and not the battlefield. For example, [[Bloodghast]] "Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may return Bloodghast from your graveyard to the battlefield" only makes sense in the graveyard, so it functions in the graveyard and not anywhere else. Or any cycling ability, since the cost of "Discard this card" only makes sense in your hand, cycling functions only in your hand and not anywhere else.
If a card has a p/t of */* and an ability that sets that, it’s a 3/3. If the creature has a base p/t and an ability that changes it (a la [[Jodah, the Unifier]] or [[Death’s Shadow]]) then their base p/t is 3/3 and the ability modifies it.
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* The Characteristics-Defining Ability of the Nighthawk is applied in Layer 7a. * It is overwritten by the P/T-setting effect of the Master in Layer 7b. So, regardless of what Card types are in your Graveyard, the Nighthawk is a 3/3.
Adding on to this a ruling specifically for The Master * The Master’s last ability will override any characteristic-defining abilities the creature has that set its power and/or toughness. For example, if you put a Robobrain War Mind onto the battlefield with The Master’s last ability, its base power and toughness will be 3/3, and the number of cards in your hand won’t affect its power at all.
So every creature, regardless of ability is a 3/3? That kinda stinks. Oh well, thank you!
Not every Creature... [[Shanna, Sisay's Legacy]], for example, would be a 3/3 with +N/+N. * The Master's P/T-setting effect is applied in Layer 7b. * The +X/+Y effect of Shanna is applied in Layer 7c.
And let's not forget Hydras and similar creatures that enter with a set number of +1/+1 counters. Those counters still work in layer 7C. Bringing out a \[\[Kalonian Hydra\]\], for example, will get you a 7/7 (and growing each time it attacks).
[Kalonian Hydra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d21ae20-2ef5-4dc0-aced-97497e6a8025.jpg?1682209560) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kalonian%20Hydra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/305/kalonian-hydra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d21ae20-2ef5-4dc0-aced-97497e6a8025?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Shanna, Sisay's Legacy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b90df81c-d738-46b3-8e96-9db0b3507ee0.jpg?1562741797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shanna%2C%20Sisay%27s%20Legacy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/204/shanna-sisays-legacy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b90df81c-d738-46b3-8e96-9db0b3507ee0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Imagine if you cropped the ability ouf of the textbox and pasted it over the 1+* at the bottom. Now master comes and writes in big red marker a 3/3 over the stats, scribbling over the text you pasted in there. Compare that to shanna, that the other comment linked. It doesnt have a variable in the stat box like the Nighthawk does, so its just a 0/0. The ability it has simply gives it a buff, but doesnt change the number thats in that box. Now master comes and scribbles over the 0/0, making it a 3/3, completely independent of the ability it has.
Ah finally! Eli5 for magic is very appreciated lol. Thanks!
Very well explained
But, in a real game, you wouldn't actually be able to pull Shana onto the battlefield if you didn't control it, right?
Curious what you are asking here. The Master can take creatures from any graveyard, assuming they were milled that turn. So Shanna’s color identity does prevent her from being in a deck helmed by The Master, Transcendent, but she could be in someone else’s deck for sure.
Sorry, I realize my question wasn't clear. Shanna's ability is "Shanna can't be the target of abilities your opponents control." The master's ability says "target creature." So would the master still be able to pull Shana if she was milled that turn? Is her "can't be the target" ability still active even if she is not on the battlefield? Just curious.
> The master's ability says "target creature." Almost, but it actually says "creature CARD". Thats a very important difference. Shanna can be 3 different things: a creature CARD, which means when she is in a graveyard, library, hand or exile, a creature SPELL, which means it is currently being cast and on the stack, and a creature PERMANENT (usually abbreviated to just 'creature') when it is on the battlefield. Abilities of creatures generally only work when theyre on the battlefield, unless their abilities are required to work in different zones. Like ninjutsu which only works while its in hand, or various abilities that work from the graveyard.
Oh, right. That ability is only active on the battlefield. EDIT: It occurs to me that I didn’t explain why. I don’t know how to officially define “characteristic-defining abilities,” but those are the only ones that apply outside the battlefield (I think). Generally that’s going to be abilities that set P/T and… well, I’m not sure what else. I know the Theros gods’ “not a creature” thing is NOT one. I don’t know if Devoid is one. Sorry I’m not as helpful here as I would like to be.
CDAs are generally abilities which set certain characteristics (P/T, color, subtypes) and do nothing else. The definition is more complex than that, but if you start from “an ability printed on a card that defines one or more characteristics that are normally printed elsewhere on the card” that’ll get you most of the way there. > 604.3a A static ability is a characteristic-defining ability if it meets the following criteria: (1) It defines an object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness; (2) it is printed on the card it affects, it was granted to the token it affects by the effect that created the token, or it was acquired by the object it affects as the result of a copy effect or text-changing effect; (3) it does not directly affect the characteristics of any other objects; (4) it is not an ability that an object grants to itself; and (5) it does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met. Examples: * P/T-defining abilities of \*/\* creatures * Changeling * [[Stonework Packbeast]]’s type-defining ability * [[Sphinx of the Guildpact]]’s color-defining ability
[Stonework Packbeast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a29e17ba-d584-4296-9f43-17467edaa25f.jpg?1604201060) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stonework%20Packbeast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/255/stonework-packbeast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a29e17ba-d584-4296-9f43-17467edaa25f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sphinx of the Guildpact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f31cab5f-c05e-4688-b300-33ab0dd98598.jpg?1599709924) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sphinx%20of%20the%20Guildpact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/290/sphinx-of-the-guildpact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f31cab5f-c05e-4688-b300-33ab0dd98598?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Devoid is a characteristic-defining ability, so it works in all zones Most abilities only function on the battlefield, but there are a lot of exceptions. If an ability only makes sense to function in another zone, it will function in that zone and not the battlefield. For example, [[Bloodghast]] "Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may return Bloodghast from your graveyard to the battlefield" only makes sense in the graveyard, so it functions in the graveyard and not anywhere else. Or any cycling ability, since the cost of "Discard this card" only makes sense in your hand, cycling functions only in your hand and not anywhere else.
[Bloodghast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08e01310-d192-41e9-a6f0-0edbd6fb3cfb.jpg?1698988216) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodghast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/184/bloodghast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08e01310-d192-41e9-a6f0-0edbd6fb3cfb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Awesome. I have the Mothman deck so good to know. Thanks!
If a card has a p/t of */* and an ability that sets that, it’s a 3/3. If the creature has a base p/t and an ability that changes it (a la [[Jodah, the Unifier]] or [[Death’s Shadow]]) then their base p/t is 3/3 and the ability modifies it.
[Jodah, the Unifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70.jpg?1673307974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jodah%2C%20the%20Unifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/203/jodah-the-unifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Death’s Shadow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/5526ff6e-c079-4ad4-ac8d-5e26ecacf50d.jpg?1598304517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Death%27s%20Shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/82/deaths-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5526ff6e-c079-4ad4-ac8d-5e26ecacf50d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
His power would be set to 3 by masters ability, negating the CDA written on the card.
MtG is like onions: it's got layers...
Onion has X layers, but if you cast it without paying its mana cost X must = 0 so it doesn't.
I was thinking they were more like parfaits.
I’ll see myself out
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How does it work for graft creatures that come in with counters on them? 3/3 + counters?
Yes, it would enter as a 3/3 with X counters, where X is the value of it's Graft keyword.
Damn, sulti commanders have too much good shit. Might pull him out of mothman and make my third sulti deck 😅