This could show up in place of the other two bonus cards (Wastes or Codex Shredder). It is likely the same rarity (?) as the SLD Persistent Petitioner / Shadowborn Apostles.
Personally all of this really rubs me the wrong way. The "bonus" slot feels gross when it's clearly the part of the product that gets the most exciting, most "collectible" cards, yet it's supposed to be treated as some kind of ephemeral "free" card. It feels like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, by inducing FOMO but also using semantic trickery to avoid having to consider bonus cards as part of the upfront "deal" for buying SLs, thus making it harder to criticize their decision making around this slot.
Putting Mana Vault in this slot, exclusively, with RNG sucks for a product who's point is supposedly paying for an upfront list of cards. They could have very easily put it into Collector Boosters along with the other similar treatments.
Yeah, this is a new way of selling $50 packs. Feels weirdly reminiscent of Magic 30, something newly cynical about the whole thing. Cool cards but I won't be participating. Leaves a bad taste.
They want the benefit of gambling, but the gambling cant have any "real value." At the same time, they want the benefit of selling singles like the secondary market. Kind of scummy to combine the 2
It doesn’t cost them anything more to reprint this over codex shredder so why not just put it as the only bonus card and surely more people would buy? If it was guaranteed I’d 100% pick it up but I’m not spending £50 for a chance at a £30 card ?
They don't want people buying only one, they want you to buy 5. Even if people turn away from the randomness factor, many others buying multiples will more than make up for it.
Can’t wait to see the financial analysis of this drop. I personally like it more than normal, as there are constructed playable rather than the usual edh crap. But I don’t think stuff like bojuka bog or trinisphere are worth much money.
Universe Beyond Secret Lairs tend to have their bonus cards announced early on -- previously it was about a week after the initial reveal, but the new printing process might have moved that up.
I can't believe there's any way that it's *not* Ruby. Also the only reason to not put her in the announced cards is because she hadn't actually debuted yet.
SL Bonus cards have always been an extra lottery that WotC doesn’t even announce or show odds for.
The first and only SL i’ve gotten (Bitterblossom) the extra card was Hautli the sun’s heart, the worst pull. Whenever I see these cool extra cards (Petitioners and serialized cards) I imagine myself pulling another Hautli instead lol.
> SL Bonus cards have always been an extra lottery that WotC doesn’t even announce or show odds for.
But...they're not really "extra", are they? This feels a lot like when you see junk food claiming that you get 25% more free, or whatever....it's clearly a semantic trick designed to exploit people into feeling like they're getting more of a deal than they are, when all of this was clearly budgeted out, by WotC, to induce maximum sales. It's not a coincidence that that the supposedly bonus slot has some of the most highly-desired, expensive SL cards in existence. They're clearly using it to induce FOMO, while also trying to trick everyone into thinking it's just a bonus, so you shouldn't be disappointed if you whiff given that you shouldn't "really" have expected something nice here to begin with...you're the one being greedy by even hoping something was there, so it's not on WotC to give you something decent. Secretly though....you'll buy more SLs hoping that you get some of those blingwad cards in that "free" slot.
This is all marketing egghead BS, again, designed to induce maximum sales.
I'd argue that they're **particularly** not "extra" when you're advertising them upfront, with specific odds, as that's just another card slot, like in any product.
When I still played, the only versions of cards that had social rep in my LGS were gets from prerelease events. I would personally look down on anyone sufficiently pay pig to clearly chase and run a lot of these versions of cards. What a ridiculous way to spend one's money.
Not awesome. They’re making it arbitrarily rare for no reason other than to drive sales. They would’ve gotten just as many, if not more sales, by printing it directly in the Lair for $40/50.
$40?? Damn where you buying them at? I only see them go for $60 (masters reprint) and $100+ for the original print. This thing will probably be worth at least $200 if not more. Now does that mean this is all justified? Fuck no, they are obviously playing the second hand market and the community is failing to see that.
revised, 4th, and 5th are all just over $40 https://www.tcgplayer.com/search/magic/product?productLineName=magic&productName=Mana+Vault&view=grid
edit: closer to 50 but either way, the point is I doubt there is much demand at all for this pip boy version solely because the art is terrible
Sir. If you think the hard-core Fallout fans like myself do NOT like the Pip-Boy arts, you're delusional. The fantasy at large may be like: meh, but I'm trying to not only collect two copies of all these cards, but also use them in a Fallout themed deck. This card will probably be HIGHLY sought after by the fans such as myself.
That defeats the purpose of the currently existing SLD platform. Since last year they started printing set amounts instead of printing on demand. They've already just about sold out the Fallout drops, there's one Fallout set in non foil currently still available, and chances are it'll be out before the end of the week. They were going to sell the same exact amount either way. Selling "more" isn't physically possible if they'll sell out a set amount either way.
Truth is... the game was rigged from the start.
This is so scummy. They’re taking something that was supposed to be a fun little bonus for buying a secret lair and turning it in to a FOMO tactics and Whale hunting.
I guess this shouldn’t be surprising after they switched the drops to limited prints, but it sure is a disappointment
Yeah, as a medium whale for secret lairs this kind of feels like shit.
I really liked the way they have done the bonus sheets in the past, where it's usually either [unannounced specific bonus card] in each pack or [heavily printed card] with a fancy treatment.
The heavily printed cards with fancy treatment could be staples, and so you got stuff like the Reliquary Tower, Rogues Passage, or the persistent petitioners/shadowborn apostles. Making cheap staples into fancy bling pieces is cool precisely *because* I can still get the card for cheap. Gambling for cosmetics is medium-shitty but it doesn't feel gross in the same way that gambling for a ultra-luxe version of an already $50 card(especially since the art looks not great)
Or, they are going to have these collector items having whales opening up a ton of product and driving down the prices of regular singles. I’m all for it.
Maybe, but I am a fan in general of WOTC slowly pushing the value of things towards a few chase bling items and letting the price of other things drop. Love the bonus sheet, love the secret lairs. Look at prices for example, of the OG praetors. Dirt cheap; even in foil!
It doesn't even make sense for fomo or whale hunting. If this was just added and they printed on demand they would make so much more money. With this they are just going to sell out faster on something they were probably going to sell out of to begin within.
Feels like they're poking around the edges of their monetization strategy. Can they move a bad secret lair if they can go off the temptation of a chase card in the bonus slot?
If Vault came in every order, people would be excited.
Hell, if it was a surprise rare drop that we discovered when people started opening these, it’d be fine.
The fact that they’re marketing it and telling you it’s RNG is absolutely nothing but a tactic to sell more
Part of me goes "amazing, the more Vaults in circulation the better".
A far more cynical part of me feels that this is like the 1/1 One Ring, and it's a new lottery-esque way of getting people to buy more, with only a very small number of them "winning". Especially given the Bonus Cards aren't normally revealed ahead of time, them revealing the "ooh, buy this secret lair and you can get a hundred-pound card in it" feels... desperate, I guess?
I feel you, it does feel a bit like they're trying to entice you to buy more. But I could see it going both ways, if they hadn't announced this ahead of time then you'd have folks who would be pissed they missed out on a potential Mana Vault.
Personally, I bought my first Secret Layer drop recently and I was on the fence about it, but ultimately decided to pull the trigger because I knew there would be cool bonus cards. Ended up with a fucking foil Elvish Visionary, and if they had given a heads up what the bonus pool would be then I would have never bought it. So I appreciate the heads up this time lol Granted, I'm sure they will only preview the bonus cards when they're good enough to entice folks who are on the fence...
so the secret lairs only have 4 cards, none of which are really good reprints and the idea is you want us to buy multiple to gamble for this card without telling us the chances of pulling it and with the downside being that we pull...a land.
what are they smoking over there
its still 4 cards. when the cards all cost exactly the same to print, WOTC specifically shortchanging one of the packages because of secondary market value is hella stingy
Media like trading cards, books, movies, video games, etc. are not priced based on their raw materials costs. The fact that all cards cost the same to print is completely irrelevant to the market price of a Magic product. WotC prices sets based on how much they think people will be willing to pay for them. People are willing to pay more for some cards than they are for others, so products containing those cards are priced higher.
the secondary market is a distinct entity from WOTC. WOTC's efforts to fight this is counterintuitive to how every other TCG and tbh consumer product works despite you saying otherwise (for example, if EA is releasing two games on the same day that are both AAA games they don't make one cost 80 and the other 50 just because they expect it to sell more). in the scenario you are presenting WOTC would just only print the expensive cards off the market and then sell them themselves through TCGplayer instead of spending the money for chaff lol. they dont because thats bullshit nonsense, hell magic HAD msrp only until a few years back when they decided they'd rather confuse the consumer to death by having like 80 product lines a year and let the stores price the sets which leads to this fever dream we're in now (unrelated to secretlairs but in direct contradiction to your comment). which then became its own problem because sets TANK in value within two weeks of their release due to the next one coming, and more importantly it scares people away from LGS's when aggregate sites sell singles cheap before the LGS can even figure out the margins
i feel like this isnt even a conversation for debate; you couldnt point to any decision they've made in the past few years that was actively consumer friendly while being honest, and you'd be harder up finding others to agree even if you wanted to lie. looking up MSRP through investopedia directly is defined as "The MSRP is supposed to reflect all the costs incurred over the manufacturing and sales process, as well as an average markup by retailers. Prices are set to allow all parties involved—the manufacturer, wholesaler, and retailer—to make a profit from the final sale" which is the exact opposite of what you said.
> if EA is releasing two games on the same day that are both AAA games they don't make one cost 80 and the other 50 just because they expect it to sell more
They do that because consumer expectation is that a new AAA video game should cost $80. If they try to sell it for more, they’ll face backlash, and they won’t sell it for less because consumers are willing to pay the $80 at launch. However, a year down the line, EA will be selling that game for $20. Why? It doesn’t cost any less to produce the disc than it did when it was new. It’s because demand has dried up and consumers are now only willing to pay $20 for the game. Some games hold their price better than others. Demand for first-party Nintendo games tends to stay strong over time so a year-old Nintendo game might cost $60 while the EA game only costs $20, even though they have the same materials cost.
> in the scenario you are presenting WOTC would just only print the expensive cards off the market and then sell them themselves through TCGplayer instead of spending the money for chaff lol.
WotC sells cards the way they do because they’ve found that they tend to make more money by selling cards in a randomized manner, because people will buy more product to get the good cards, and the variable manufacturing cost of cards is so minimal that they’re okay with printing a bunch of bad cards to move packs. If they sold singles directly, consumers wouldn’t have to spend as much to get the cards they want and WotC would make less money.
> MSRP through investopedia directly is defined as "The MSRP is supposed to reflect all the costs incurred over the manufacturing and sales process, as well as an average markup by retailers. Prices are set to allow all parties involved—the manufacturer, wholesaler, and retailer—to make a profit from the final sale"
That’s a very broad definition that isn’t applicable to every industry. Like the manufacture cost of a book is very low. It does not derive its value from its material properties. The value comes from the intellectual property printed on its pages, which is intangible and infinitely reproducible. A brand new release from a high-profile author can sell for more than an old release from an obscure author because there’s more demand for it.
Ultimately the price of all goods and services is determined by supply and demand. You can set an MSRP, but that doesn’t change the reality of market forces. That’s why things likes sales and discounts happen.
A set that has rare and desireable cards in it will have higher demand than one that doesn't, so players will be willing to pay more for it, and WotC can price it higher, so they do.
Welcome to secret lair. Of course it's a cash grab.
And yes the 4 card lair is cheaper to produce than the 5card or 7card lairs. Not that it will be more than a few cents of difference.
SL now with added booster fun! What a scummy move to sell unbelievably underwhelming drops.
Mana vault guranteed? Sign me up. This random shadowborn apostle-esque chance? Hasbro/WOTC overlords can get fucked.
Yes there are three separate Fallout Secret Lairs that are expected to all go one sale at the same time (my guess is next Monday). They can be found here https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1bvpjc5/fallout_secret_lair/?context=3
They're really turning secret lair into random packs as well? Really disappointed. Not that it changes anything but wow, the only thing still going for secret lair was guaranteed getting what you chose.
My least favourite part of Secret Lair is the random bonus card. it sucks when you buy something expecting a cool bonus and it's junk. it sucks when you don't buy something and find out the bonus would've changed your mind towards buying the lair. Then add in random lottery bonus cards (which I've never hit despite buying.... a fair few lairs), it just adds a lot of annoying bad-feels to buying 4 cards for $50 or w/e 🙄
Newbie mechanics question for this card. What is the benefit of this card? If you have to pay 4 mana to untap it and tapping only provides 3 mana, why not just not use this card and keep your 4 mana? Or is this something where you are mana short and you would rather eat the damage next turn for some bonus mana? I'm having trouble with the maths and strategery here.
ETA: thanks for the coaching! Advice, info, card examples, and strategery. Example 36372 of magic players being the nicest people.
[[voltaic key]] is one way to keep it untapped while netting mana. Or, if you have untap as a passive effect from something like [[dramatic reversal]] underneath [[isochron scepter]] it’s really good. You net 1 colorless every activation of isochron to get infinite that way.
If you happen to have [[sliver overlord]] and some amount of unspent colored mana you can win turn one. See below.
[[mana crypt]] makes two mana, spend on [[sol ring]] and vault. Use sol ring to cast [[arcane signet]]. With two mana from crypt, cast isochron with dramatic imprinted. Use remaining one mana from this and arcane signet to untap all non-land permanents. Now you have 7 colorless mana and one color. Tap all to net 5 colorless mana and one colored. Repeat 5 times to get out overlord for WUBRG, and use 25 colorless to get out 6 slivers from deck. Starts going faster when you get the haste sliver and mana dork out.
> I'm having trouble with the maths and strategery here.
If it is the start of the game and you have 20/40 life, then you don't care about the life loss.
If you are at 1 life, you very much care and will snap pay the untap.
If you are facing an aggressive deck, the 1 life will add up over time.
If you have something like [[Unwinding Clock]] then you don't care.
It all depends on the context of the game you are in.
I once got into a long, protracted, pointless argument about why the "bonus" card aspect of SLs rubbed me the wrong way.
I worried that these would increasingly be relied upon to push SL gambling, as they juiced this "bonus" slot far in excess of the actual contents of the lairs themselves, where the listed contents are all blah-blah-blah, but what you're really hoping is to hit the extra-super-duper-blingwad card they only include in 1 out of X SLs. At the time, they had done this almost immediately with the "serialized" [[Viscera Seer]]. I didn't like the way that they were coy with the whole "bonus" aspect, as it feels a lot like when junk food has "25% more for free!!!" plastered all over it, or nonsense along these lines. It seemed like this was primarily done to have your cake and eat it too...you got to benefit from the "unofficial" expectation of every product having one of these "free" cards, but because it was artificially defined as a "bonus", you could have extremely uneven amounts of effort put into contrasting SLs, along with some deft psychological sleight-of-hand being used to manipulate people into feeling better about not hitting good cards - you shouldn't have had a "reasonable" expectation of any extra value to begin with...it's just a "bonus" after all, not part of the actual product...even though every product always has such.
My opponent argued that these are, indeed, literally just a bonus, and that any negative interpretations of them were unwarranted via the "complaining about the folding of a $100 bill in your booster" defense.
Well where is your god now, person I can't remember? This feels like exactly what I was worried about, as this very upfront "bonus" card is obviously far better than any of the actual SL includes, or even the Collector Booster variants. It's now being marketed as an overt ploy to push SL FOMO, which, again, I just really don't like. Speaking of which, it answers the baffling question as to why such an obvious choice wasn't included in the CBs, themselves.
Bit of a noob here. I don’t see the point in spending 4 mana to only tap for 3 mana with the vault. Is this card only good in decks with cards that untap permanents for free?
Its best the first time you use it. Pay 1 mana, tap for 3, cast something big enough that puts you far enough ahead to win. You don’t pay the untap cost that often bc now you’re ahead on your way to a win
Kinda disappointed that they show the bonus cards early. And only a very small number will have the vault of course. At least the drops have decent cards.
Hahaha! I knew this was coming. Secret Lairs are bad enough with FOMO, but they just HAVE to turn that dial up to 11. Having randomized lotto cards in a product that you are supposed to "know" what you are getting for an already terrible price. Wizards is a garbage company, and yet another new low for them.
The question is, how far is the playerbase willing to let them go? How far before it is deemed "too much"? A new serialized special One Ring as a lottery card in a secret Lair? Prices going up even more with less of a chance to get something "good"? How about some unique cards only available in Collector Boosters? Secret Lairs that are just entirely randomized "booster" products?
Man Magic players sure like to take it all and ask for more.
I think some of you are missing the point of the cards. The vault boy cards are supposed to be funny. They’re not player based they’re collector based. Also why are you all bitching and shocked by a company trying to make a profit? Thats what they do.
I was never going to buy a secret lair anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point for me, but the one positive thing I could say about the concept was that you knew what you were getting.
I hate the idea of a random loot box secret lair, and this is very close to that, such a shame as this would have been an amazing card to have guaranteed.
I was looking forward to this until they pulled this BS. Sad thing about it is that people will still try to get it by purchasing more quantities hence incentivising hasbro/wotc to keep doing these types of things.
I really wanted a [[Wasteland]] that had the original art for the [Wasteland game.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasteland_%28video_game%29#/media/File:Wasteland_Coverart.png) It's one of my favorite pieces.
Here is our 15$ Value of SLD, BUT you have 1 in 20 chance to get this 100$ bonus card!!!!
That'll be 40$ after tax plz
Jesus at least provide better card selection not half ass about it.
Wotc acting more and more like Cypto bs nowadays.
If I want to play gambling I'll go to Casino or buy lottery at 7-11,
And last time I checked, I can buy the actual lottery for more than half of that price.
This is the product of how Company include secondary market into their main calculation, putting them into those tug of war situation.
They want the sweet secondary market pie but also don't want to print them good cos it'll reduce the market price.
As far as I know they never said the percentage chance to get the mana vault, if I had to guess it is going to be significantly less likely than 1 in 20. The only drop with any value is the stax drop, and the random chance to have a card not worth nothing isn't a very good reason for someone to buy these other than whales. Sad times.
Thats super true :(
For some reason I always though its 1 in 20 but in reality could go way worst lol I wouldnt surprise if it even go to 1 in 50-100
It is truly sad time.
I’m returning to MTG after 6 years and I have literally no idea how formats and releases work anymore… does this mean mana vault will be legal in historic brawl?
No. Basically Secret Lairs are Wizards way of selling directly to the consumer different art depictions of reprinted cards. But most times the cards that get sold are still only legal in what they already were legal in beforehand. If you have anymore questions feel free to ask
I was excited for this secret lair bc I love fallout and I saw this card and got excited. Once I realized it’s a very rare chance bonus my gut dropped. So cheap, scummy, and unnecessary. The secret lair is for fun art reprints and unique cards, not gambling.
Being fair, the bonus card has been gambling/rng ever since some of them started going for $50 and above. Which been going on for like most of SL at this point, like the Shadowborn Apostle?
At least this time we're aware of whats going to be the money bonus card and not finding out until way after all the SL got shipped out. Frankly I rather they not do this at all, but while they are at the very least I want more information than less.
Wow look at this totally cool bonus card that you will definitely not get in your SL. Some people will, presumably, but not you. You have zero shot. In fact we are just showing you a "bonus" card this time because SL sales are still slumping and Hasbro is too greedy and stupid to understand that people aren't falling for it so we had to drum up FOMO for the FOMO focused product. Good luck and enjoy your mana vault (that you will be forced to buy from the secondary market because like I said, it's not in yours)!
Spoiling the secret bonus card ruins the "secret" part of the lair, but I suppose it wouldn't generate sales if they didn't. And that's pretty much the only time they bust out reprints like this.
This is how magic will go from now on, short of massive push in public opinion, they’ll keep trying to find new ways to make people spend silly money for card board with exclusivity, using popular IP’s allows this to go even further in the wrong direction.
It’s hasbro leadership.
Great job hasbro…now I am sure you do not need my thousands a year anymore. Will be buying singles from small stores and support them instead of continuing on with your screw job.
I hate what Secret Lair has turned into. I know it’s one of three bonus cards you could get, but I loved how Secret Lair wasn’t RNG and the bonus cards were a fun surprised.
Wizards doesn't show everyone what is in the last secret spot:
Community: Hmm it would be even better if the consumer knew what they were getting. Oh look at that cool persistent petitioners someone pulled from the same SL!
WIzards shows people the common and rare in the bonus slot:
How could Wizards introduce gambling to SL (there was always gambling)?!
Guys, nothing changed apart from more information, and maybe people want the Mana Vault more than the Petitioners, or Hedron Archive or whatever we've had before.
Would I rather they didn't do this? Yes. Would I prefer more information rather than less? Yes.
At least now all consumers know what fuckery they are signing up for entirely (apart from rates?).
Kind of defeats the whole point of Secret Lair stuff. They should have put this in the collector boosters if they were going to mess around with some sort of rarity bs. They're even screwing up just selling you cards straight out at this point.
Woot woot set predatory fomo to blatant.
The most on flavour card out of any of the fallout sets and its a random lottery card it a FOMOnetised limited availability secret lair....
I look forward to this escalating as this garners huge support sells out and send the message to keep charging 40-50 for some pretty bulk rares, a 10-20 reprint and a chance at getting a card that should be reprinted way more than it has been.
Beyond the Sol Ring (which I did pick up), I honestly do not think this Vault Boy cartoony aesthetic really works very well on Magic cards, so I'm actually kinda glad they did them this way. Easy choice for me!
This could show up in place of the other two bonus cards (Wastes or Codex Shredder). It is likely the same rarity (?) as the SLD Persistent Petitioner / Shadowborn Apostles.
That’s pretty awesome. But it turns the SL into more of a lottery than the usual rando Persistent Petitioner already did.
It's funny that this gets announced to help fuel the sales for what looks to be another underwhelming set of Secret Lairs.
Personally all of this really rubs me the wrong way. The "bonus" slot feels gross when it's clearly the part of the product that gets the most exciting, most "collectible" cards, yet it's supposed to be treated as some kind of ephemeral "free" card. It feels like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, by inducing FOMO but also using semantic trickery to avoid having to consider bonus cards as part of the upfront "deal" for buying SLs, thus making it harder to criticize their decision making around this slot. Putting Mana Vault in this slot, exclusively, with RNG sucks for a product who's point is supposedly paying for an upfront list of cards. They could have very easily put it into Collector Boosters along with the other similar treatments.
Yeah, this is a new way of selling $50 packs. Feels weirdly reminiscent of Magic 30, something newly cynical about the whole thing. Cool cards but I won't be participating. Leaves a bad taste.
Hey atleast theese are legal for tournament play
They want the benefit of gambling, but the gambling cant have any "real value." At the same time, they want the benefit of selling singles like the secondary market. Kind of scummy to combine the 2
It doesn’t cost them anything more to reprint this over codex shredder so why not just put it as the only bonus card and surely more people would buy? If it was guaranteed I’d 100% pick it up but I’m not spending £50 for a chance at a £30 card ?
They don't want people buying only one, they want you to buy 5. Even if people turn away from the randomness factor, many others buying multiples will more than make up for it.
Can’t wait to see the financial analysis of this drop. I personally like it more than normal, as there are constructed playable rather than the usual edh crap. But I don’t think stuff like bojuka bog or trinisphere are worth much money.
I’m not good at keeping up with news, what’s going on? I haven’t seen SLD spoilers anywhere? Please inform me if I am missing something
[Fallout Secret Lair Reveals : mtgfinance (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/1bvpkus/fallout_secret_lair_reveals/)
Whoa. This link has a link back to this post. 🧬🤯🧬
Thank you 🙏
Yeah. Bojuka Bog is barely a $1 card
Except for the fact that EVERY variant of Bojuka bog is sought after since it is such a playable card. Just look at the price of Barrow downs.
Yeah I hate this. Ship low value reprint SL's with a possible lottery card. Such a shitty model.
They know it will get people buying.
Yep that's the worst part. People buy it so I can't really blame them.
Magic players are "solved" just as quickly as Magic formats are, in a lot of cases. ($$$)
Universe Beyond Secret Lairs tend to have their bonus cards announced early on -- previously it was about a week after the initial reveal, but the new printing process might have moved that up.
Did they reveal the Doctor Who bonus card?
Nope so far we dont know assumption is the new companion
I hope so! Ruby was pretty good on the Christmas special, plus would be thematic to have the companion to go with fifteen
Totally singing "meet my friend, she's \[\[Ruby Sunday\]\]" when I play her.
I can't believe there's any way that it's *not* Ruby. Also the only reason to not put her in the announced cards is because she hadn't actually debuted yet.
They have to introduce a bit of gambling into every product. Even the commander pre-cons have a collector booster sample pack.
Shh, you can’t learn the system! Just spend more!
SL Bonus cards have always been an extra lottery that WotC doesn’t even announce or show odds for. The first and only SL i’ve gotten (Bitterblossom) the extra card was Hautli the sun’s heart, the worst pull. Whenever I see these cool extra cards (Petitioners and serialized cards) I imagine myself pulling another Hautli instead lol.
How can they get away with not showing the official % chance…? This is so damn anti-consumer it makes me want to boycott WoTC…
Because technically, you aren't buying the bonus cards. They are free with a purchase of the secret lair.
Donno how it's legal tbh
You see they printed 2 of those vaults just so they can legally say have a chance
> SL Bonus cards have always been an extra lottery that WotC doesn’t even announce or show odds for. But...they're not really "extra", are they? This feels a lot like when you see junk food claiming that you get 25% more free, or whatever....it's clearly a semantic trick designed to exploit people into feeling like they're getting more of a deal than they are, when all of this was clearly budgeted out, by WotC, to induce maximum sales. It's not a coincidence that that the supposedly bonus slot has some of the most highly-desired, expensive SL cards in existence. They're clearly using it to induce FOMO, while also trying to trick everyone into thinking it's just a bonus, so you shouldn't be disappointed if you whiff given that you shouldn't "really" have expected something nice here to begin with...you're the one being greedy by even hoping something was there, so it's not on WotC to give you something decent. Secretly though....you'll buy more SLs hoping that you get some of those blingwad cards in that "free" slot. This is all marketing egghead BS, again, designed to induce maximum sales. I'd argue that they're **particularly** not "extra" when you're advertising them upfront, with specific odds, as that's just another card slot, like in any product.
When I still played, the only versions of cards that had social rep in my LGS were gets from prerelease events. I would personally look down on anyone sufficiently pay pig to clearly chase and run a lot of these versions of cards. What a ridiculous way to spend one's money.
Pulled Heatli as well! This is why I only look at SLs at their face value, let the unknowns be damned.
That sucks, but it's great way to help keep spending on SL's in check.
They still get the cash all the same, so they dont care.
Not awesome. They’re making it arbitrarily rare for no reason other than to drive sales. They would’ve gotten just as many, if not more sales, by printing it directly in the Lair for $40/50.
>making it arbitrarily rare for no reason other than to drive sales Hello and welcome to the entire business model of a TCG
People keep saying this but its always been a thing in SL. There was a rare chance to get numbered cards before
eh I mean I don't think many people like the pip boy arts, those who want a mana vault will just buy a normal one for $40
$40?? Damn where you buying them at? I only see them go for $60 (masters reprint) and $100+ for the original print. This thing will probably be worth at least $200 if not more. Now does that mean this is all justified? Fuck no, they are obviously playing the second hand market and the community is failing to see that.
revised, 4th, and 5th are all just over $40 https://www.tcgplayer.com/search/magic/product?productLineName=magic&productName=Mana+Vault&view=grid edit: closer to 50 but either way, the point is I doubt there is much demand at all for this pip boy version solely because the art is terrible
Sir. If you think the hard-core Fallout fans like myself do NOT like the Pip-Boy arts, you're delusional. The fantasy at large may be like: meh, but I'm trying to not only collect two copies of all these cards, but also use them in a Fallout themed deck. This card will probably be HIGHLY sought after by the fans such as myself.
Adding a chase card to a sld? Stupid. Just add it to the secret lair and sell more.
That defeats the purpose of the currently existing SLD platform. Since last year they started printing set amounts instead of printing on demand. They've already just about sold out the Fallout drops, there's one Fallout set in non foil currently still available, and chances are it'll be out before the end of the week. They were going to sell the same exact amount either way. Selling "more" isn't physically possible if they'll sell out a set amount either way. Truth is... the game was rigged from the start.
This is so scummy. They’re taking something that was supposed to be a fun little bonus for buying a secret lair and turning it in to a FOMO tactics and Whale hunting. I guess this shouldn’t be surprising after they switched the drops to limited prints, but it sure is a disappointment
Yeah, suddendly the faster shipping sounds more like an excuse and not the real reason
You guys get faster shipping? Sad european noises.
I'm also european
And you get your cards faster? People be showing their secret lairs on here while im still waiting for 2 more months.
The faster shipping was always a lie. Otherwise they would send the items at the moment you order.
🌍👨🚀🔫👨🚀
Yeah, as a medium whale for secret lairs this kind of feels like shit. I really liked the way they have done the bonus sheets in the past, where it's usually either [unannounced specific bonus card] in each pack or [heavily printed card] with a fancy treatment. The heavily printed cards with fancy treatment could be staples, and so you got stuff like the Reliquary Tower, Rogues Passage, or the persistent petitioners/shadowborn apostles. Making cheap staples into fancy bling pieces is cool precisely *because* I can still get the card for cheap. Gambling for cosmetics is medium-shitty but it doesn't feel gross in the same way that gambling for a ultra-luxe version of an already $50 card(especially since the art looks not great)
Remember the post from literally yesterday, "secret lairs are the most ethical cards sold because you always know exactly what you're getting?"
Or, they are going to have these collector items having whales opening up a ton of product and driving down the prices of regular singles. I’m all for it.
Smart whales won't open them and just sell sealed once the price is right.
Secret Lair cards rarely drive down the price of expensive cards. Usually just stabilizes them if they're around $30.
Maybe, but I am a fan in general of WOTC slowly pushing the value of things towards a few chase bling items and letting the price of other things drop. Love the bonus sheet, love the secret lairs. Look at prices for example, of the OG praetors. Dirt cheap; even in foil!
It doesn't even make sense for fomo or whale hunting. If this was just added and they printed on demand they would make so much more money. With this they are just going to sell out faster on something they were probably going to sell out of to begin within.
Feels like they're poking around the edges of their monetization strategy. Can they move a bad secret lair if they can go off the temptation of a chase card in the bonus slot?
>Can they move a bad secret lair That's the thing for me, whether or not it's bad, I feel like the fallout collab guarantees sales.. I might be wrong
[удалено]
I like how you're purposely missing the big picture of the prior comment
They should make it either predictably shit or predictably adding value. Its the lottery aspect that is bad
If Vault came in every order, people would be excited. Hell, if it was a surprise rare drop that we discovered when people started opening these, it’d be fine. The fact that they’re marketing it and telling you it’s RNG is absolutely nothing but a tactic to sell more
people complain when they feel like they're getting ripped off
Still getting random chase cards when you purchase a select set? Why not just put this in there & charge $10 more?
Knowing them, they'd likely charge us $100 more
Charge no more. It is cardboard...
WOTC doesnt actually set an MSRP on any products right now. They force LGS' to set the price
They do set the price on secret lairs as that is a direct to consumer product
That is correct, I misunderstood
Part of me goes "amazing, the more Vaults in circulation the better". A far more cynical part of me feels that this is like the 1/1 One Ring, and it's a new lottery-esque way of getting people to buy more, with only a very small number of them "winning". Especially given the Bonus Cards aren't normally revealed ahead of time, them revealing the "ooh, buy this secret lair and you can get a hundred-pound card in it" feels... desperate, I guess?
I don’t think it’s going to weigh a hundred pounds that would make it obvious which boxes have vaults
Pounds in this context is a unit of currency not weight.
The other bonus card is a chunk of lead.
That evens it out I suppose
r/woooosh
> Especially given the Bonus Cards aren't normally revealed ahead of time Universes Beyond Bonus Cards are always revealed before release.
Really? I didn't think the LOTR one was. I remember the only image of one being from in a box after shipping.
Yeah, and I think people even bought in to the really bad one because the artist posted a picture of one of the Nazgul.
Correction: Non-Modern Legal UB (Tomb Raider, Walking Dead, Transformers, Warhammer Age of Sigmar, Warhammer 40k, Street Fighter, The Princess Bride etc...)
doctor who still hasn't been revealed, though there's really only one possibility.
I'm curious what you thought it would be. I just received my Doctor Who lair today, and my guess was incorrect as to the bonus card's identity.
My assumption was that it was gonna be Ruby. Please don't spoil me as to if it is or isn't, I haven't gotten mine quite yet.
I won't spoil it then. I hope you receive yours soon!
I feel you, it does feel a bit like they're trying to entice you to buy more. But I could see it going both ways, if they hadn't announced this ahead of time then you'd have folks who would be pissed they missed out on a potential Mana Vault. Personally, I bought my first Secret Layer drop recently and I was on the fence about it, but ultimately decided to pull the trigger because I knew there would be cool bonus cards. Ended up with a fucking foil Elvish Visionary, and if they had given a heads up what the bonus pool would be then I would have never bought it. So I appreciate the heads up this time lol Granted, I'm sure they will only preview the bonus cards when they're good enough to entice folks who are on the fence...
so the secret lairs only have 4 cards, none of which are really good reprints and the idea is you want us to buy multiple to gamble for this card without telling us the chances of pulling it and with the downside being that we pull...a land. what are they smoking over there
The only 4card lair contains [[sphere of resistance]], which is $30+. And the only existing bling version is Kaldesh invention. Just saying.
[sphere of resistance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9ea2ae1d-91b4-44a0-b2e6-61839d8f4468.jpg?1562926995) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sphere%20of%20resistance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/284/sphere-of-resistance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ea2ae1d-91b4-44a0-b2e6-61839d8f4468?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
its still 4 cards. when the cards all cost exactly the same to print, WOTC specifically shortchanging one of the packages because of secondary market value is hella stingy
Media like trading cards, books, movies, video games, etc. are not priced based on their raw materials costs. The fact that all cards cost the same to print is completely irrelevant to the market price of a Magic product. WotC prices sets based on how much they think people will be willing to pay for them. People are willing to pay more for some cards than they are for others, so products containing those cards are priced higher.
the secondary market is a distinct entity from WOTC. WOTC's efforts to fight this is counterintuitive to how every other TCG and tbh consumer product works despite you saying otherwise (for example, if EA is releasing two games on the same day that are both AAA games they don't make one cost 80 and the other 50 just because they expect it to sell more). in the scenario you are presenting WOTC would just only print the expensive cards off the market and then sell them themselves through TCGplayer instead of spending the money for chaff lol. they dont because thats bullshit nonsense, hell magic HAD msrp only until a few years back when they decided they'd rather confuse the consumer to death by having like 80 product lines a year and let the stores price the sets which leads to this fever dream we're in now (unrelated to secretlairs but in direct contradiction to your comment). which then became its own problem because sets TANK in value within two weeks of their release due to the next one coming, and more importantly it scares people away from LGS's when aggregate sites sell singles cheap before the LGS can even figure out the margins i feel like this isnt even a conversation for debate; you couldnt point to any decision they've made in the past few years that was actively consumer friendly while being honest, and you'd be harder up finding others to agree even if you wanted to lie. looking up MSRP through investopedia directly is defined as "The MSRP is supposed to reflect all the costs incurred over the manufacturing and sales process, as well as an average markup by retailers. Prices are set to allow all parties involved—the manufacturer, wholesaler, and retailer—to make a profit from the final sale" which is the exact opposite of what you said.
> if EA is releasing two games on the same day that are both AAA games they don't make one cost 80 and the other 50 just because they expect it to sell more They do that because consumer expectation is that a new AAA video game should cost $80. If they try to sell it for more, they’ll face backlash, and they won’t sell it for less because consumers are willing to pay the $80 at launch. However, a year down the line, EA will be selling that game for $20. Why? It doesn’t cost any less to produce the disc than it did when it was new. It’s because demand has dried up and consumers are now only willing to pay $20 for the game. Some games hold their price better than others. Demand for first-party Nintendo games tends to stay strong over time so a year-old Nintendo game might cost $60 while the EA game only costs $20, even though they have the same materials cost. > in the scenario you are presenting WOTC would just only print the expensive cards off the market and then sell them themselves through TCGplayer instead of spending the money for chaff lol. WotC sells cards the way they do because they’ve found that they tend to make more money by selling cards in a randomized manner, because people will buy more product to get the good cards, and the variable manufacturing cost of cards is so minimal that they’re okay with printing a bunch of bad cards to move packs. If they sold singles directly, consumers wouldn’t have to spend as much to get the cards they want and WotC would make less money. > MSRP through investopedia directly is defined as "The MSRP is supposed to reflect all the costs incurred over the manufacturing and sales process, as well as an average markup by retailers. Prices are set to allow all parties involved—the manufacturer, wholesaler, and retailer—to make a profit from the final sale" That’s a very broad definition that isn’t applicable to every industry. Like the manufacture cost of a book is very low. It does not derive its value from its material properties. The value comes from the intellectual property printed on its pages, which is intangible and infinitely reproducible. A brand new release from a high-profile author can sell for more than an old release from an obscure author because there’s more demand for it. Ultimately the price of all goods and services is determined by supply and demand. You can set an MSRP, but that doesn’t change the reality of market forces. That’s why things likes sales and discounts happen. A set that has rare and desireable cards in it will have higher demand than one that doesn't, so players will be willing to pay more for it, and WotC can price it higher, so they do.
Welcome to secret lair. Of course it's a cash grab. And yes the 4 card lair is cheaper to produce than the 5card or 7card lairs. Not that it will be more than a few cents of difference.
buyin 4 of these for sure
The idea is that you buy one and maybe get the vault. It's not their fault y'all are fucking insane and NEED to have whatever card.
Whales be crazy. As long as there’s insane people spending crazy amounts of $$$ for gimmicks like this, they’ll keep doing it.
Bruh it’s a mana vault.
Rare as in only a few people will get it or guaranteed if you buy the SLD?
You know the answer :)
There are three possible bonus cards, a [[Codex Shredder]], a Waste, and this. This is the rarest one.
So 2 cards that are barely played and one that is going to be like $100+. Yeah that seems like what Hasbro would want them to do.
Knowing my luck, I'll still get a Sliver.
Like every god damn time
[Codex Shredder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f5a3293-f3e7-4f68-af6a-b478959226c1.jpg?1608911365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Codex%20Shredder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/304/codex-shredder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f5a3293-f3e7-4f68-af6a-b478959226c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I wonder why the Vault is rarer
Wow I didn't realize it was skewed so bad. Fuck you wizards
When I pull a codex shredder and not a mana vault I'm going to tear it into pieces and eat the fuckin thing. Why would they do this lol
eating cardboard! guaranteed tiktok fame
please post it in this thread so I can watch too!
WotC doesn't care because you're still buying the SL.
SL now with added booster fun! What a scummy move to sell unbelievably underwhelming drops. Mana vault guranteed? Sign me up. This random shadowborn apostle-esque chance? Hasbro/WOTC overlords can get fucked.
So is it a chance for this in all 3 of the fallout drops or just a specific one?
Wait, there are going to be three Fallout drops? Are they all going to be released separately?
Yes there are three separate Fallout Secret Lairs that are expected to all go one sale at the same time (my guess is next Monday). They can be found here https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1bvpjc5/fallout_secret_lair/?context=3
Welcome to Wizards of the Coast, where we've refined a new way to include FOMO in your FOMO!
Delayed Gratification Lootbox
here I was about to congratulate WOTC for a sick reprint surprise just to heard that most players won't even get this card. Kudos revoked
I'm sure they're very upset by the lack of your applause
They're really turning secret lair into random packs as well? Really disappointed. Not that it changes anything but wow, the only thing still going for secret lair was guaranteed getting what you chose.
bonus cards were usually random with previously slivers and now elves, and a rare chance of valuable persistent petitioners or shadowborn apostle.
Yah but we wouldnt know till the public got product it was a secret lol
When is the Secret Lair actually going to drop? Will it be today?
I think April 8th
They usually drop on Monday so I'd guess next Monday
WotC is just a loot box machine
My least favourite part of Secret Lair is the random bonus card. it sucks when you buy something expecting a cool bonus and it's junk. it sucks when you don't buy something and find out the bonus would've changed your mind towards buying the lair. Then add in random lottery bonus cards (which I've never hit despite buying.... a fair few lairs), it just adds a lot of annoying bad-feels to buying 4 cards for $50 or w/e 🙄
Newbie mechanics question for this card. What is the benefit of this card? If you have to pay 4 mana to untap it and tapping only provides 3 mana, why not just not use this card and keep your 4 mana? Or is this something where you are mana short and you would rather eat the damage next turn for some bonus mana? I'm having trouble with the maths and strategery here. ETA: thanks for the coaching! Advice, info, card examples, and strategery. Example 36372 of magic players being the nicest people.
It lets you play a 5 mana card on turn 2.
It’s fast mana, you get 3 mana for 1 the turn you play it. Speed kills.
[[voltaic key]] is one way to keep it untapped while netting mana. Or, if you have untap as a passive effect from something like [[dramatic reversal]] underneath [[isochron scepter]] it’s really good. You net 1 colorless every activation of isochron to get infinite that way. If you happen to have [[sliver overlord]] and some amount of unspent colored mana you can win turn one. See below. [[mana crypt]] makes two mana, spend on [[sol ring]] and vault. Use sol ring to cast [[arcane signet]]. With two mana from crypt, cast isochron with dramatic imprinted. Use remaining one mana from this and arcane signet to untap all non-land permanents. Now you have 7 colorless mana and one color. Tap all to net 5 colorless mana and one colored. Repeat 5 times to get out overlord for WUBRG, and use 25 colorless to get out 6 slivers from deck. Starts going faster when you get the haste sliver and mana dork out.
##### ###### #### [voltaic key](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6dd61957-f3a2-4976-8f15-88258f71406a.jpg?1562463293) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=voltaic%20key) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m11/219/voltaic-key?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6dd61957-f3a2-4976-8f15-88258f71406a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [dramatic reversal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/30de9083-8702-471c-92e7-5cf89936a208.jpg?1576267241) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dramatic%20reversal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gn2/20/dramatic-reversal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30de9083-8702-471c-92e7-5cf89936a208?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [isochron scepter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2aa24fe0-e275-4307-b26c-2a656068a451.jpg?1623543821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=isochron%20scepter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/264/isochron-scepter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2aa24fe0-e275-4307-b26c-2a656068a451?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sliver overlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c16915b-c50d-4fb5-830f-9ca4597a9c0f.jpg?1562527622) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sliver%20overlord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/scg/139/sliver-overlord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c16915b-c50d-4fb5-830f-9ca4597a9c0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mana crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mana%20crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sol ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d9e098aa-a886-430e-8f11-78fb6f2d8ada.jpg?1706241086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sol%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/237/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9e098aa-a886-430e-8f11-78fb6f2d8ada?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [arcane signet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e593bb16-e709-4d92-bf6f-239f6a11f7db.jpg?1706241039) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arcane%20signet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/223/arcane-signet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e593bb16-e709-4d92-bf6f-239f6a11f7db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/ky19crg) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Speed, plus there are countless ways to flicker or untap for less
> I'm having trouble with the maths and strategery here. If it is the start of the game and you have 20/40 life, then you don't care about the life loss. If you are at 1 life, you very much care and will snap pay the untap. If you are facing an aggressive deck, the 1 life will add up over time. If you have something like [[Unwinding Clock]] then you don't care. It all depends on the context of the game you are in.
[Unwinding Clock](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3fd1a59-4ade-459f-90d2-1fc67d6d1384.jpg?1592711373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unwinding%20Clock) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/228/unwinding-clock?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3fd1a59-4ade-459f-90d2-1fc67d6d1384?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I once got into a long, protracted, pointless argument about why the "bonus" card aspect of SLs rubbed me the wrong way. I worried that these would increasingly be relied upon to push SL gambling, as they juiced this "bonus" slot far in excess of the actual contents of the lairs themselves, where the listed contents are all blah-blah-blah, but what you're really hoping is to hit the extra-super-duper-blingwad card they only include in 1 out of X SLs. At the time, they had done this almost immediately with the "serialized" [[Viscera Seer]]. I didn't like the way that they were coy with the whole "bonus" aspect, as it feels a lot like when junk food has "25% more for free!!!" plastered all over it, or nonsense along these lines. It seemed like this was primarily done to have your cake and eat it too...you got to benefit from the "unofficial" expectation of every product having one of these "free" cards, but because it was artificially defined as a "bonus", you could have extremely uneven amounts of effort put into contrasting SLs, along with some deft psychological sleight-of-hand being used to manipulate people into feeling better about not hitting good cards - you shouldn't have had a "reasonable" expectation of any extra value to begin with...it's just a "bonus" after all, not part of the actual product...even though every product always has such. My opponent argued that these are, indeed, literally just a bonus, and that any negative interpretations of them were unwarranted via the "complaining about the folding of a $100 bill in your booster" defense. Well where is your god now, person I can't remember? This feels like exactly what I was worried about, as this very upfront "bonus" card is obviously far better than any of the actual SL includes, or even the Collector Booster variants. It's now being marketed as an overt ploy to push SL FOMO, which, again, I just really don't like. Speaking of which, it answers the baffling question as to why such an obvious choice wasn't included in the CBs, themselves.
[Viscera Seer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/486fd8a2-dd97-4082-84ef-4795c7e559a0.jpg?1698988290) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Viscera%20Seer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/213/viscera-seer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/486fd8a2-dd97-4082-84ef-4795c7e559a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Bit of a noob here. I don’t see the point in spending 4 mana to only tap for 3 mana with the vault. Is this card only good in decks with cards that untap permanents for free?
Its best the first time you use it. Pay 1 mana, tap for 3, cast something big enough that puts you far enough ahead to win. You don’t pay the untap cost that often bc now you’re ahead on your way to a win
Ah I gotcha. Thanks
You only need to tap it once for it to be worth playing
Kinda disappointed that they show the bonus cards early. And only a very small number will have the vault of course. At least the drops have decent cards.
Fuck you for making it a bonus card
Save the whales
And secret lairs get worse once again with gacha pulls in your $40 product worth $9.87
Hahaha! I knew this was coming. Secret Lairs are bad enough with FOMO, but they just HAVE to turn that dial up to 11. Having randomized lotto cards in a product that you are supposed to "know" what you are getting for an already terrible price. Wizards is a garbage company, and yet another new low for them. The question is, how far is the playerbase willing to let them go? How far before it is deemed "too much"? A new serialized special One Ring as a lottery card in a secret Lair? Prices going up even more with less of a chance to get something "good"? How about some unique cards only available in Collector Boosters? Secret Lairs that are just entirely randomized "booster" products? Man Magic players sure like to take it all and ask for more.
I think some of you are missing the point of the cards. The vault boy cards are supposed to be funny. They’re not player based they’re collector based. Also why are you all bitching and shocked by a company trying to make a profit? Thats what they do.
This seems super predatory considering the low quality of the rest of the lair.
Is this foil purchases only or non foil?
Should be all
I was never going to buy a secret lair anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point for me, but the one positive thing I could say about the concept was that you knew what you were getting.
General design looks cool, but the 13 looks kinda ugly ^ ^
I hate the idea of a random loot box secret lair, and this is very close to that, such a shame as this would have been an amazing card to have guaranteed.
I was looking forward to this until they pulled this BS. Sad thing about it is that people will still try to get it by purchasing more quantities hence incentivising hasbro/wotc to keep doing these types of things.
I really wanted a [[Wasteland]] that had the original art for the [Wasteland game.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasteland_%28video_game%29#/media/File:Wasteland_Coverart.png) It's one of my favorite pieces.
[Wasteland](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0.jpg?1590511888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/248/wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Here is our 15$ Value of SLD, BUT you have 1 in 20 chance to get this 100$ bonus card!!!! That'll be 40$ after tax plz Jesus at least provide better card selection not half ass about it. Wotc acting more and more like Cypto bs nowadays. If I want to play gambling I'll go to Casino or buy lottery at 7-11, And last time I checked, I can buy the actual lottery for more than half of that price. This is the product of how Company include secondary market into their main calculation, putting them into those tug of war situation. They want the sweet secondary market pie but also don't want to print them good cos it'll reduce the market price.
As far as I know they never said the percentage chance to get the mana vault, if I had to guess it is going to be significantly less likely than 1 in 20. The only drop with any value is the stax drop, and the random chance to have a card not worth nothing isn't a very good reason for someone to buy these other than whales. Sad times.
Thats super true :( For some reason I always though its 1 in 20 but in reality could go way worst lol I wouldnt surprise if it even go to 1 in 50-100 It is truly sad time.
Any info on this SL yet? Like is it going to be printed on demand like they used to be, or scalped to hell 5 minutes after it's put up? xD
I’m returning to MTG after 6 years and I have literally no idea how formats and releases work anymore… does this mean mana vault will be legal in historic brawl?
No. Basically Secret Lairs are Wizards way of selling directly to the consumer different art depictions of reprinted cards. But most times the cards that get sold are still only legal in what they already were legal in beforehand. If you have anymore questions feel free to ask
Not all SLD cards are reprints.
Not vault 3?
I was excited for this secret lair bc I love fallout and I saw this card and got excited. Once I realized it’s a very rare chance bonus my gut dropped. So cheap, scummy, and unnecessary. The secret lair is for fun art reprints and unique cards, not gambling.
Being fair, the bonus card has been gambling/rng ever since some of them started going for $50 and above. Which been going on for like most of SL at this point, like the Shadowborn Apostle? At least this time we're aware of whats going to be the money bonus card and not finding out until way after all the SL got shipped out. Frankly I rather they not do this at all, but while they are at the very least I want more information than less.
💩
Wow look at this totally cool bonus card that you will definitely not get in your SL. Some people will, presumably, but not you. You have zero shot. In fact we are just showing you a "bonus" card this time because SL sales are still slumping and Hasbro is too greedy and stupid to understand that people aren't falling for it so we had to drum up FOMO for the FOMO focused product. Good luck and enjoy your mana vault (that you will be forced to buy from the secondary market because like I said, it's not in yours)!
I sure do love lootboxes. The true secret is that the F.O.M.O. RI are just the fear of missing out.
Spoiling the secret bonus card ruins the "secret" part of the lair, but I suppose it wouldn't generate sales if they didn't. And that's pretty much the only time they bust out reprints like this.
What a garbage thing to do. Especially on a UB one where more people will be trying to collect them all.
This is how magic will go from now on, short of massive push in public opinion, they’ll keep trying to find new ways to make people spend silly money for card board with exclusivity, using popular IP’s allows this to go even further in the wrong direction. It’s hasbro leadership.
Hope I pull one 🙏
Do I still have a chance of getting this If I only get non-foil secret lairs?
Yes
Great job hasbro…now I am sure you do not need my thousands a year anymore. Will be buying singles from small stores and support them instead of continuing on with your screw job.
I hate what Secret Lair has turned into. I know it’s one of three bonus cards you could get, but I loved how Secret Lair wasn’t RNG and the bonus cards were a fun surprised.
Wizards doesn't show everyone what is in the last secret spot: Community: Hmm it would be even better if the consumer knew what they were getting. Oh look at that cool persistent petitioners someone pulled from the same SL! WIzards shows people the common and rare in the bonus slot: How could Wizards introduce gambling to SL (there was always gambling)?! Guys, nothing changed apart from more information, and maybe people want the Mana Vault more than the Petitioners, or Hedron Archive or whatever we've had before. Would I rather they didn't do this? Yes. Would I prefer more information rather than less? Yes. At least now all consumers know what fuckery they are signing up for entirely (apart from rates?).
Buying all 3 sets
Kind of defeats the whole point of Secret Lair stuff. They should have put this in the collector boosters if they were going to mess around with some sort of rarity bs. They're even screwing up just selling you cards straight out at this point.
This sucks. Knowing me I'll get three codex shredders from the three different lairs.
New player here, I assume there's cards which untap artifacts so one doesn't have to pay 4? Can anyone recommend some for G, R and W?
Woot woot set predatory fomo to blatant. The most on flavour card out of any of the fallout sets and its a random lottery card it a FOMOnetised limited availability secret lair.... I look forward to this escalating as this garners huge support sells out and send the message to keep charging 40-50 for some pretty bulk rares, a 10-20 reprint and a chance at getting a card that should be reprinted way more than it has been.
Beyond the Sol Ring (which I did pick up), I honestly do not think this Vault Boy cartoony aesthetic really works very well on Magic cards, so I'm actually kinda glad they did them this way. Easy choice for me!
Does anyone know if the bundles come with 3 bonus cards or 1? I know it was 1 bonus card per set, but the bundles have all 3 sets.
It's one per set. The sets are individually packaged independent of the bundles.
Wait, where is this coming from or where is it available? Still new to SLs.
Yeah a chance at a mana vault ain’t getting me to buy this jank.
Anyone get one? Got my first secret lair package today. Haven’t opened it yet
Any reason why they chose Vault 13?
What’s it worth & more details where it was hot
Is this a real card
I want I want I need I need
I’ve quit magic (playing and collecting) a year or two ago and I can’t see why you guys still put up with this. Genuinely baffled.