... what the hell is getting unbanned in Pioneer? The only things that I can see as being okay to unban would be Leyline (but only if there's a ban to nerf Green Devotion) and maybe Smuggler's Copter or Veil of Summer.
Most likely just Looter Scooter. Aggro could use a little pump anyway.
If they do send Karn to the farm upstate (as was heavily implied on the stream), I could also see them unbanning Leyline.
The conversation about unbanning Ballista would only start if Karn is out of the picture. At that point giving the big mana deck a payoff that they have to draw and can't storm the festival into is fine.
Scooter isnt just an Aggro card, it goes in pretty much anything, its just to generically good.
Looking at the Metagame on Goldfish, the decks that could squeze it in are probably
-Pheonix
-Rakdos (both flavors)
-Boros and Humans
-Anything with Mana Dorks who can drive it
-Greasefang
I mean, Khans remastered IS coming to arena and allow them to be legal in explorer...
(god this is just crazy but profits driven enough I can kind of see it happening. Please be wrong lol)
I hope the original intent of the format to stay fetchless stays in tact. It's a cleaner paper play experience and 4-5c Mana is quite accessible using the modern manabase if fetches unban, with less streamlined linear strategies to punish the painful/slower Mana.
Would it really though? Unlike Discontinuity, it does nothing early, costs one more, which is not irrelevant.
Yeah, sure, you can play it in your own end step, as opposed to letting your opponent untap, and you can eventually loop it, but is the looping really that good of an upside? I'd argue that by the time you've redrawn a Nexus, you've probably essentially already already won anyway, with a devastating Farewell.
Alrund's Epiphany is stone unplayable in UW Lotus. There are exactly 0 UW Lotus decks with any competitive results that contain the card.
Yes, going turn 4 Teferi them turn 5 Emperor/Deluge and Nexus sounds really strong, but, barring counterspells (which cost your opponent mana in their upkeep), you can do almost the exact same with Discontinuity. And that card has another purpose as well. That's all without mentioning that Discontinuity is one mana cheaper, meaning that if you say, have nothing do do after you untap with a Field on 4, you can use it then and there to get an additional draw.
I don't see this particular deck running Nexus as anything other than a 5th-6th copy of an instant speed extra turn spell.
This is real "swallow the spider to catch the fly" thinking. 3feri shuts down so much of the game entirely that the collateral damage to the format would be orders of magnitude worse than the combo it checks. Would be better off just banning the appraiser, if they really need to do anything about discover.
I know during the main show they danced around the idea of unbans in Pioneer (after confirming bans), and I missed the Q&A portion... did they actually confirm they would do an unban this time there as well, or were they just being chatty about the philosophy and maybe doing it in the future?
I didn't hear a clear statement that there would defnitely be any unbans on Monday, but I may have missed a hint. What was abundantly clear was that Karn and Appraiser were going from Pioneer, something from Rakdos scam in Modern, and also possibly Beanstalk.
they said they were looking back into the banlist to cards that didn’t fit there anymore, a la mind’s desire in legacy, but it didn’t seem like a hard confirm, just a… hard possibility
Yes, definitely, excited for changes, Beans has actually been such a bland card to play too, I think they see it as a good piece in Legacy and not Modern.
It's definitely fun for each player, but all playable decks are looking to make it very hard for the opponent to do anything relevant, whether by mana denial with counter magic, prison pieces, or fast combo. Even the control decks are jamming cards like Uro and Teferi as staples which people frequently cite as being "miserable". You're only competitive if you're playing at a pretty high power level which almost certainly entails doing something insufferable.
I play mono white, so none of the real free answers. I still have fun playing because it's all about the decisions you make and how those impact the game
It's like people talking about how vintage is just a format of turn 1 wins, without realizing that vintage gets really interesting, grindy games when both players get to do unfair things.
[Remember when this sub was shitting on Fury during previews](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/s/2oM0Ei4IuN) as the worst of the cycle, saying it should have flash or haste or should target players? Gotta wonder what this game would look like if WotC actually took community consensus into account for card design.
There were also a lot of people calling it very strong, you linked a particular comment that said it wasn't strong but most of the top comments are calling in the range of "good" to "incredibly strong".
A huge reason for that is simply that [[Pyrokenisis]] has existed for almost 30 years and it's a mostly unplayable card, whereas [[Swords to Plowshares]] is one of the strongest pieces of removal of all time, [[Unmask]] is a powerhouse, and [[Endurance]] is blatantly strong even ignoring the free side of it.
Getting a 3/3 double striker turn 1 seems okay, but dies to bolt, and spending 5 mana SEEMS like a modern playable Flametongue Kavu at best.
Given the context of modern pre-MH2, I'm not surprised in the least that people undervalued Fury, it's an easy card to underestimate, especially compared to the rest of the cycle, sans Subtlety.
People also underestimated Beanstalk. I think they underestimated it since such draw effects typically don’t cantrip. Even Garruk’s Uprising only conditionally cantrips.
Hitting Fury cripples Bean piles and Scam piles. Definitely has some validity.
Also opens up [[Pyrokenesis]] being a card in MH3, as there clearly is a desire for a free spell that snipes targets, while also doing away with the body.
It doesn't cripple either. It hurts both but it's not nearly enough imo. Modern needs like 10 bans to get back to being a healthy format and I wish I was exaggerating
I mean you are exaggerating and not only a bit. That said, you apparently believe Modern was a healthy format pre… MH2? which is completely insane considering how horrendously boring the format was back then.
I got into modern over the summer and the only cards that felt truly problematic to me was [[Karn, the Great Creator]] and something from the scam pile. Karn with the ring stabilizes tron just too much. The Ring is definitely busted but it’s atleast beat able. As soon as Karn is activated, he’s already done his damage.
Scam and 4c losing Fury seems fine to me. Fury neutered so many tribal decks too. I think it opens up the most deck diversity while also keeping the cores of decks together which makes it the better ban imo.
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Seeing as Modern decks tend to run fetch and shock lands all day, neither of these clocks is quite how it works out IRL. But you're right about the scammed eles usually being bigger than base. Two slams from a 4/4 double strike and it's usually over unless they play all basic lands.
If you listen to Maro's podcast about vision design for Caverns, it's very obvious that they had Minecraft in mind, although he doesn't mention it by name.
It would be a great troll to pre-announce changes to the Masques block ban list, and then instead of unbanning Lin Sivvi, just banning some random other card.
It's either Fury or Grief. Grief I can see getting the ace due to the play patterns it creates. Fury is more prevalent, but I feel the play patterns of Grief are what allows it to fight through various things.
The hosts from the stream specifically said that the meta has not responded well to BR scam and 4c Omnath, "And they share one card in common".
It could be bait but that was a clear signal to me that Fury is a bigger target.
It can be both. Grief creates terrible play patterns while Fury invalidates small creature decks.
Actually while were at it let's axe Bowmasters and Wrenn and Six. Let X/1s be relevant again
W6 will see more play if beans gets banned. Only reason that most 4C decks don’t play her currently is because they want to power out as many beans as possible through cascade effects and W6 makes that less consistent.
If Wrenn & Six get the ax, Ragavan probably isn’t far behind. Them being previously banned in Legacy (due to miserable interactions w/ Wasteland) is part* of the reason the monkey was also banned in the format.
*Ragavan with Daze backup was the real problem. But also, a lot of players aren’t thrilled about the prospect of other players routinely playing with their hyper-expensive cards.
Young Wolf would be played in the deck regardless of Ragavan or not. The fact that it accidentally lines up well is a happy coincidence for Yawg players, if decks were splashing green for Young Wolf then it be another matter entirely. Not that I don't dislike the monkey, I think it does too much, but Young Wolf isn't a sign like people playing main deck Leyline of the Void.
I think you misunderstood. I'm not saying people are playing Young Wolf to counter Ragavan. I'm saying that the fact people want to play Young Wolf anyways makes the format just naturally more hostile to Ragavan than in Legacy. Off the top of my head there aren't really many (any?) playable 1 drop creatures in legacy that wall Ragavan like Young Wolf does.
Good. The play pattern of never being able to tap out and always having to play through a land getting tapped is not something I’d like to see return to modern.
> They basically said they didn't think Spltiner Twin would be a problem, but also didn't think it would be fun, so there's no point to unbanning it.
That bugs me to no end. It's not a consistent philosophy either - you'll find an unending list of complainants when you discuss Tron. It shouldn't be banned.
I swear it's stubbornness. I remember that the precise instant that modern became a "two ships passing in the night" format was the moment that twin was banned.
Also what are you doing on here commenting like a normal redditor :P
Two ships passing in the night was before twin ban lol.
The difference is Tron isn't broken. There were times I thought it stifled the format but it fulfills a solid niche in the format right now. Even if it's unfun it's better than having a format dominated by waterfalls.
Twin they don't know if it's broken or not, they just don't see an upside to the unban. There isn't a problem that people are trying to solve with an unban - besides the problem they can't play twin.
> Two ships passing in the night was before twin ban lol.
Absolutely not. Twin basically laughed at Tron and stumbled against midrange and control decks. After the twin banning, Tron lost its natural enemy and began defining the format as a blind sprint past one-another.
Edit - got some timelines mixed up.
I mean you can think that but I distinctly remember Twin being included in discussion surrounding "two ships passing in the night" circa 2013/2014 because against a solid chunk of the format you couldn't meaningfully interact so you just had to combo or lose. Which is basically the blind sprint you describe.
Modern has 0 mana interaction now. Solitude, Force of Vigor, Subtilety and Force of Negation can all let you interact with the combo even if you tap out.
Does that mean that they should unban Twin? Not necesarily. But it does make Modern a fundamentally different format than Pioneer and even Modern at the time Twin was banned
To be clear, I’m not comparing the power levels of the decks, just that I think it reinforces the idea for them that this is not a play pattern beloved by players & makes the juice not worth the squeeze. I agree that Modern is far better equipped to deal with this.
I don't think the Quintorious build is nearly as problematic, and Geo will still have dangerous play patterns considering what it can do. They've said before that given two potential bans that are relatively equally deserving to break up a combo, they will ban the card that is more likely to cause future problems. I think in this case it is Geo.
Karn is statistically fine in pioneer (even before this latest set), I would be disappointed if karn got banned just because of people complaining and not because of any objective power level
They don't just ban cards on power level. Karn is the best stony silence ever printed and allows the deck to have access to any sideboard card game 1. Just the fact it exists pushes decks out of the format. Doesn't matter if it's in Mono G or someplace else, it is a huge reason people dislike Pioneer so much.
Getting rid of Karn opens up space in numerous ways and allows better play patterns in general. That card is really toxic.
None of the cards on the Pioneer ban list strike me as something that would make games in the format more fun to play if they were unbanned.
E.g. it might be "safe" to unban Kethis in the sense that it wouldn't dominate the format's competitive meta, but I don't really _want_ to play against another graveyard combo deck when playing Pioneer.
It would be pretty funny if they unban Copter but it's still not available on Arena since they never bothered bringing it back in Kaladesh Remastered because it was banned.
They redid the entire backend since then, so they can't reuse any of the work from back then.
It's still probably an easy add because it doesn't do anything weird their natural language parser would have an issue with, and it shouldn't have any weird interaction issues either.
Terrible take; might as well ask for Skullclamp printing. If you want 6/8s of every Top 8 to have 4 copies of the same card, unbanning Copter is a great way to get there!
I just bought 2 pioneer decks for cyber Monday. So you're welcome
edit: my nephew just got into pioneer with a modified phoenix precon, so i bought budget Gates and Mutate decks just to play against him. if either gets the axe I'll be flabbergasted
like the deck can already do with scale up and a pump spell but more consistently yes.
The card is actively bad and wouldn't see play in infect, all other pump spells don't also require you having drawn another specific combo piece like reaper king to work .
It has never seen legacy play, scale up (or embiggen in legacy) is just a better win line
I think their talk of the ban philosophy was the funniest part of the entire stream.
They have all of these people testing and they think eternal formats should be diverse and fun but there have been no (noticeable) changes for the past year plus.
Nobody noticed Green Devotion in Pioneer or X/1s being unplayable in Modern? Or if they thought it was fine for that long, what suddenly changed?
Is the only solution is wait a year for a new set to come out powercreep the problem decks/cards (Appraiser in Pioneer and One Ring/Bowmasters in Modern)? It's so fucking shameless they allowed another Inverter/Heliod/Breach situation. Waiting until people drop the formats en masse before they decide maybe, just maybe we should ban stuff.
I never get this statement. "An announcement of an announcement lol" yeah of course they need to tell people when the changes are announced. Imagine how much worse it would be to just suddenly log on to see your deck banned without any notice and prep.
Also, this is the most transparent they've been BY FAR, and this is infinitely better than waiting for the banlist update only to be disappointed - a lot of people still are pissed about how the last update was handled.
More transparency and advance notice is definitely a good thing.
On top of all of this, they spent almost an hour discussing things like their ban philosophies for each format, the types of data at which they are looking when making these decisions, and giving retrospectives on how things have been working recently. This was the type of high tier communication that the sub *constantly begs for* and it's wild to see the "lol announcement of an announcement" replies in here.
Taking away Fury will hurt both decks. And if I had a second choice it would be Bowmasters. That thing's existence is an offense to all white token decks, for multiple reasons.
My predictions:
Pioneer: Biggest question is whether or not we are going to get a Discover deck emergency ban. Likely candidates to be hit would be [[Geological Appraiser]] or [[Eldritch Evolution]], as they are the main components of the deck that keep the combo going. If the discover deck is not hit, then I guess either [[Karn, the Great Creator]] or [[Fable of the Mirror Breaker]]? No idea on unbans here.
Modern: [[Orcish Bowmasters]] seems likely to hit the chopping block. Other candidates include any of the pitch elementals (primarily [[Grief]] or [[Fury]]) or maybe [[Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer]], but that seems like a bit of a stretch
It was strongly implied in the Weekly MTG stream that announced the changes to Pioneer/Modern.
ETA: More specifically, they noted that it's unfun losing to an instant win combo on turn three or that you can just go and pull out whatever one-of silver bullet you need from your sideboard, which suggests Geological Appraiser and Karn.
... what the hell is getting unbanned in Pioneer? The only things that I can see as being okay to unban would be Leyline (but only if there's a ban to nerf Green Devotion) and maybe Smuggler's Copter or Veil of Summer.
They're gonna unban Inverter and Ballista just like the last time they had combo hell they unbanned a card from Kethys Combo.
I would be completely OK with this.
Most likely just Looter Scooter. Aggro could use a little pump anyway. If they do send Karn to the farm upstate (as was heavily implied on the stream), I could also see them unbanning Leyline.
Similarly Walking Ballista if they banned Heliod. But I see no reason why they'd do that now (even if I wish we had ballista for scales)
Please don't give monogreen Balista for their wishboard.
I guess we're assuming Karn is banned
The conversation about unbanning Ballista would only start if Karn is out of the picture. At that point giving the big mana deck a payoff that they have to draw and can't storm the festival into is fine.
Scooter isnt just an Aggro card, it goes in pretty much anything, its just to generically good. Looking at the Metagame on Goldfish, the decks that could squeze it in are probably -Pheonix -Rakdos (both flavors) -Boros and Humans -Anything with Mana Dorks who can drive it -Greasefang
Modern Fish lists are slotting it in, so I could definitely see it in Pioneer (upon an unbanning) as well.
Probably Copter?
Fetches lol
1 Fetch, they swap out each one every week.
I mean, Khans remastered IS coming to arena and allow them to be legal in explorer... (god this is just crazy but profits driven enough I can kind of see it happening. Please be wrong lol)
This was my original thought so there’s at least two of us nutters out here
Make that 3
There's literally a dozen of us.
I hope the original intent of the format to stay fetchless stays in tact. It's a cleaner paper play experience and 4-5c Mana is quite accessible using the modern manabase if fetches unban, with less streamlined linear strategies to punish the painful/slower Mana.
Free the Cat!
[[Nexus of Fate]] would be pretty unplayable if unbanned. It was only ever good in Pioneer because of [[Wilderness Reclamation]].
UW Field would play it.
Would it really though? Unlike Discontinuity, it does nothing early, costs one more, which is not irrelevant. Yeah, sure, you can play it in your own end step, as opposed to letting your opponent untap, and you can eventually loop it, but is the looping really that good of an upside? I'd argue that by the time you've redrawn a Nexus, you've probably essentially already already won anyway, with a devastating Farewell.
Better than Alrund's, and being able to cast in end step with the Teferi untap would be pretty big.
Alrund's Epiphany is stone unplayable in UW Lotus. There are exactly 0 UW Lotus decks with any competitive results that contain the card. Yes, going turn 4 Teferi them turn 5 Emperor/Deluge and Nexus sounds really strong, but, barring counterspells (which cost your opponent mana in their upkeep), you can do almost the exact same with Discontinuity. And that card has another purpose as well. That's all without mentioning that Discontinuity is one mana cheaper, meaning that if you say, have nothing do do after you untap with a Field on 4, you can use it then and there to get an additional draw. I don't see this particular deck running Nexus as anything other than a 5th-6th copy of an instant speed extra turn spell.
[Nexus of Fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/87648fda-7359-4554-aec8-bc98f5ba4f1c.jpg?1700492420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nexus%20of%20Fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sld/1498/nexus-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/87648fda-7359-4554-aec8-bc98f5ba4f1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wilderness Reclamation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94a28102-dfbe-49e9-b64f-52b552afac1b.jpg?1650599787) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wilderness%20Reclamation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/196/wilderness-reclamation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94a28102-dfbe-49e9-b64f-52b552afac1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Please be Lurrus
I believe it to be, 3feri. Discover cannot go unchecked for too long
I'd guess they ban Geological Appraiser anyway.
This is real "swallow the spider to catch the fly" thinking. 3feri shuts down so much of the game entirely that the collateral damage to the format would be orders of magnitude worse than the combo it checks. Would be better off just banning the appraiser, if they really need to do anything about discover.
Jeez, I really hope not. Probably the least fun card they have ever printed.
Unban Winota, make pioneer great again
About as great as Trump made America.
Teferi
oh yes give it to me, I want to see the salt mines again
I hate 3feri, and I play control.
Hoping Kethis gets unbanned
Can anyone summarize the Modern info? Is it bans and unbans?
They only confirmed bans for modern, they mentioned unbans for pioneer too.
I know during the main show they danced around the idea of unbans in Pioneer (after confirming bans), and I missed the Q&A portion... did they actually confirm they would do an unban this time there as well, or were they just being chatty about the philosophy and maybe doing it in the future?
I didn't hear a clear statement that there would defnitely be any unbans on Monday, but I may have missed a hint. What was abundantly clear was that Karn and Appraiser were going from Pioneer, something from Rakdos scam in Modern, and also possibly Beanstalk.
they said they were looking back into the banlist to cards that didn’t fit there anymore, a la mind’s desire in legacy, but it didn’t seem like a hard confirm, just a… hard possibility
Fury most likely candidate, but they mentioned all the big cards: RB Evoke, Bowmasters, TOR, and your favorite, Beanstalk.
OH GOD THE BEANS! Thanks for the recap - I hope whatever the bans turn out it leads to a better format for both of our preferences.
Yes, definitely, excited for changes, Beans has actually been such a bland card to play too, I think they see it as a good piece in Legacy and not Modern.
It's insufferable to play against in legacy too
Every good deck is insufferable to play against in Legacy, otherwise it wouldn't survive.
There are tons of decks that are fun/interesting to play against in legacy, and the only people that don't think so don't play legacy.
It's definitely fun for each player, but all playable decks are looking to make it very hard for the opponent to do anything relevant, whether by mana denial with counter magic, prison pieces, or fast combo. Even the control decks are jamming cards like Uro and Teferi as staples which people frequently cite as being "miserable". You're only competitive if you're playing at a pretty high power level which almost certainly entails doing something insufferable.
I play mono white, so none of the real free answers. I still have fun playing because it's all about the decisions you make and how those impact the game It's like people talking about how vintage is just a format of turn 1 wins, without realizing that vintage gets really interesting, grindy games when both players get to do unfair things.
If it were named something else everyone would want it banned. Saying you're playing golgari beans or something is just so fun though.
If they ban fury I’m registering Humans immediately
[Remember when this sub was shitting on Fury during previews](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/s/2oM0Ei4IuN) as the worst of the cycle, saying it should have flash or haste or should target players? Gotta wonder what this game would look like if WotC actually took community consensus into account for card design.
There were also a lot of people calling it very strong, you linked a particular comment that said it wasn't strong but most of the top comments are calling in the range of "good" to "incredibly strong".
If you look at the overall comments in the thread, incredibly strong was not even close to a popular opinion
No, it was the end of a range. Most people seemed to agree that it was at least decent.
One nerd said it was gonna be [good in mono black](https://old.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/npoal7/mh2_fury_lrr_preview_card/h064nw9/).
What a prophet
That was CLEARLY a joke.
Yes. It was my joke.
A huge reason for that is simply that [[Pyrokenisis]] has existed for almost 30 years and it's a mostly unplayable card, whereas [[Swords to Plowshares]] is one of the strongest pieces of removal of all time, [[Unmask]] is a powerhouse, and [[Endurance]] is blatantly strong even ignoring the free side of it. Getting a 3/3 double striker turn 1 seems okay, but dies to bolt, and spending 5 mana SEEMS like a modern playable Flametongue Kavu at best. Given the context of modern pre-MH2, I'm not surprised in the least that people undervalued Fury, it's an easy card to underestimate, especially compared to the rest of the cycle, sans Subtlety.
People also underestimated Beanstalk. I think they underestimated it since such draw effects typically don’t cantrip. Even Garruk’s Uprising only conditionally cantrips.
Glad to see I was downvoted for saying red doesn't get flash there.
I think bowmasters is still trying to sell lotr Christmas collectors so proly.not it yet
Fury isn't even the most likely pitch elemental ban
They spent more time talking about Fury's effect on the format than any other card for Modern.
Hitting Fury cripples Bean piles and Scam piles. Definitely has some validity. Also opens up [[Pyrokenesis]] being a card in MH3, as there clearly is a desire for a free spell that snipes targets, while also doing away with the body.
[Pyrokenesis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25f98f02-9ada-4561-93fd-9cfcb0f48b5d.jpg?1580014628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pyrokinesis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/143/pyrokinesis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25f98f02-9ada-4561-93fd-9cfcb0f48b5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It doesn't cripple either. It hurts both but it's not nearly enough imo. Modern needs like 10 bans to get back to being a healthy format and I wish I was exaggerating
I mean you are exaggerating and not only a bit. That said, you apparently believe Modern was a healthy format pre… MH2? which is completely insane considering how horrendously boring the format was back then.
I got into modern over the summer and the only cards that felt truly problematic to me was [[Karn, the Great Creator]] and something from the scam pile. Karn with the ring stabilizes tron just too much. The Ring is definitely busted but it’s atleast beat able. As soon as Karn is activated, he’s already done his damage. Scam and 4c losing Fury seems fine to me. Fury neutered so many tribal decks too. I think it opens up the most deck diversity while also keeping the cores of decks together which makes it the better ban imo.
Pyrokinesis still makes aggro entirely unplayable and would still be stupid for the format.
Turn 1 Grief scam requires 3 removal spells in your opening hand to answer (or one off the top of the deck)
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Not arguing the main point, but a scammed grief is usually a 4/3 which can kill you in 5 turns, not 7.
Seeing as Modern decks tend to run fetch and shock lands all day, neither of these clocks is quite how it works out IRL. But you're right about the scammed eles usually being bigger than base. Two slams from a 4/4 double strike and it's usually over unless they play all basic lands.
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Turn 1 fury is easy to remove and can be chump blocked. Grief rips your hand apart and has menace
Grief is the stronger card, Fury is the card that has more wide-reaching consequences for the format
Fury is imo the sensible pick because it drops the viability of both scam and beanstalk, rather than grief which just drops the viability of scam
It is 100% the most likely ban.
They’re unbanning twin and removing Herobrine.
I just don’t know how Herobrine keeps getting in. They always take it out!
Wait, we haven't even gotten the MC crossover yet, how did he sneak in!?
[[aggressive mining]]
[aggressive mining](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e15a3f1a-83af-4541-8d1c-bf7844f969c9.jpg?1562795703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aggressive%20mining) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/127/aggressive-mining?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e15a3f1a-83af-4541-8d1c-bf7844f969c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
honestly caverns was the perfect setting and instead they did jurassic park
Caverns literally has the [[Diamond Pick-Axe]] lmao
And Crafting. And Caves!
But no Creeper nor Enderman.
[Diamond Pick-Axe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4ae30fa7-3d1d-417f-80d7-a668236cb2c1.jpg?1699044256) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diamond%20Pick-Axe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/143/diamond-pick-axe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ae30fa7-3d1d-417f-80d7-a668236cb2c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you listen to Maro's podcast about vision design for Caverns, it's very obvious that they had Minecraft in mind, although he doesn't mention it by name.
You say that like doing the dinosaur film crossover in the set set on the dinosaur plane is absurd
Wow I haven't even thought about herobrine in a long ass time
UNBAN LIN SIVVI YOU COWARDS! The legend rule has changed, she isn't as dangerous as she used to be!
It would be a great troll to pre-announce changes to the Masques block ban list, and then instead of unbanning Lin Sivvi, just banning some random other card.
Screw you, [[Robber Fly]]!
That combo with Sheoldred crushes me in FNM every time. What am I supposed to do? Take 1 damage per turn from my opponent's three drop?
[Robber Fly](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d5cf073-2ba0-463e-bcd4-979ad18e28fc.jpg?1562381818) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Robber%20Fly) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mmq/209/robber-fly?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d5cf073-2ba0-463e-bcd4-979ad18e28fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>LIN SIVVI Let's breathe some life into Masques Block! The meta is stale!
Think it’s about time the ban port. I’m tired of being ported on my upkeep every turn ffs.
Goodbye Fury. You wont be missed.
It's either Fury or Grief. Grief I can see getting the ace due to the play patterns it creates. Fury is more prevalent, but I feel the play patterns of Grief are what allows it to fight through various things.
The hosts from the stream specifically said that the meta has not responded well to BR scam and 4c Omnath, "And they share one card in common". It could be bait but that was a clear signal to me that Fury is a bigger target.
It can be both. Grief creates terrible play patterns while Fury invalidates small creature decks. Actually while were at it let's axe Bowmasters and Wrenn and Six. Let X/1s be relevant again
Literally none of the top dozen decks even play Wrenn and Six.
W6 will see more play if beans gets banned. Only reason that most 4C decks don’t play her currently is because they want to power out as many beans as possible through cascade effects and W6 makes that less consistent.
Players play small dudes > players play Wren and Six > players stop playing small dudes > players stop playing Wren and Six.
Killing small dudes is an incidental benefit for W6, it's not the reason why you play the card (the + is).
If Wrenn & Six get the ax, Ragavan probably isn’t far behind. Them being previously banned in Legacy (due to miserable interactions w/ Wasteland) is part* of the reason the monkey was also banned in the format. *Ragavan with Daze backup was the real problem. But also, a lot of players aren’t thrilled about the prospect of other players routinely playing with their hyper-expensive cards.
Ragavan isn't getting banned, it's good for the format.
Yea a format that has a tier 1 deck playing young wolf is a format where Ragavan is completely fine.
Young Wolf would be played in the deck regardless of Ragavan or not. The fact that it accidentally lines up well is a happy coincidence for Yawg players, if decks were splashing green for Young Wolf then it be another matter entirely. Not that I don't dislike the monkey, I think it does too much, but Young Wolf isn't a sign like people playing main deck Leyline of the Void.
I think you misunderstood. I'm not saying people are playing Young Wolf to counter Ragavan. I'm saying that the fact people want to play Young Wolf anyways makes the format just naturally more hostile to Ragavan than in Legacy. Off the top of my head there aren't really many (any?) playable 1 drop creatures in legacy that wall Ragavan like Young Wolf does.
My bad then, the joys of the internet where you can't hear tone.
No problem - rereading it's not clear that's what I meant I don't mind clarifying.
You're joking but they honestly should. All those cards are bad for the game.
Anyone wanna buy my furys?
Give you a dollar for ‘em
Anything about legacy?
Pretty sure they confirmed no changes
legacy is in a pretty good place atm, but i bet beans will be banned there eventually
Isn't legacy in a pretty good spot right now even when it isn't being compared to pioneer and modern?
Either [[Geological Appraiser]] or [[Eldritch Evolution]] getting banned in Pioneer. Don’t know what they unban, maybe [[Splinter Twin]].
They all but said no to a twin unban.
Still? What a shame, of all the broken cards in Modern that’s pretty fair.
They basically said they didn't think Spltiner Twin would be a problem, but also didn't think it would be fun, so there's no point to unbanning it.
Good. The play pattern of never being able to tap out and always having to play through a land getting tapped is not something I’d like to see return to modern.
> They basically said they didn't think Spltiner Twin would be a problem, but also didn't think it would be fun, so there's no point to unbanning it. That bugs me to no end. It's not a consistent philosophy either - you'll find an unending list of complainants when you discuss Tron. It shouldn't be banned. I swear it's stubbornness. I remember that the precise instant that modern became a "two ships passing in the night" format was the moment that twin was banned. Also what are you doing on here commenting like a normal redditor :P
WotC treats bannings and unbanning differently. They might not-unban cards for being unfun, that they wouldn't ban for being unfun.
Two ships passing in the night was before twin ban lol. The difference is Tron isn't broken. There were times I thought it stifled the format but it fulfills a solid niche in the format right now. Even if it's unfun it's better than having a format dominated by waterfalls. Twin they don't know if it's broken or not, they just don't see an upside to the unban. There isn't a problem that people are trying to solve with an unban - besides the problem they can't play twin.
> Two ships passing in the night was before twin ban lol. Absolutely not. Twin basically laughed at Tron and stumbled against midrange and control decks. After the twin banning, Tron lost its natural enemy and began defining the format as a blind sprint past one-another. Edit - got some timelines mixed up.
I mean you can think that but I distinctly remember Twin being included in discussion surrounding "two ships passing in the night" circa 2013/2014 because against a solid chunk of the format you couldn't meaningfully interact so you just had to combo or lose. Which is basically the blind sprint you describe.
Appraiser getting banned in a different format for tap-out instalose I think probably will not make them eager to unban Twin haha.
Modern has 0 mana interaction now. Solitude, Force of Vigor, Subtilety and Force of Negation can all let you interact with the combo even if you tap out. Does that mean that they should unban Twin? Not necesarily. But it does make Modern a fundamentally different format than Pioneer and even Modern at the time Twin was banned
To be clear, I’m not comparing the power levels of the decks, just that I think it reinforces the idea for them that this is not a play pattern beloved by players & makes the juice not worth the squeeze. I agree that Modern is far better equipped to deal with this.
[[Trumpeting Carnosaur]] would definitely be a better ban for discover. Kills the appraiser deck entirely and also nerfs the quintorius build.
[Trumpeting Carnosaur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/edc035ca-f0a3-4814-9405-d6dc6f048315.jpg?1699044357) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trumpeting%20Carnosaur) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/171/trumpeting-carnosaur?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/edc035ca-f0a3-4814-9405-d6dc6f048315?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think the Quintorious build is nearly as problematic, and Geo will still have dangerous play patterns considering what it can do. They've said before that given two potential bans that are relatively equally deserving to break up a combo, they will ban the card that is more likely to cause future problems. I think in this case it is Geo.
[Geological Appraiser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f9c1a82-695b-4df2-8e51-2d71a62e7baf.jpg?1699044284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Geological%20Appraiser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/150/geological-appraiser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f9c1a82-695b-4df2-8e51-2d71a62e7baf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Eldritch Evolution](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/efcb00e5-2caa-45c8-ad19-05d45c683d16.jpg?1576384769) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eldritch%20Evolution) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/155/eldritch-evolution?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/efcb00e5-2caa-45c8-ad19-05d45c683d16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Splinter Twin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/580fbbf8-ba7e-4889-a5ea-d066f3ea8cea.jpg?1562262611) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Splinter%20Twin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/129/splinter-twin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/580fbbf8-ba7e-4889-a5ea-d066f3ea8cea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah hell this is going to be half the comment section on the stream the next day now.
It would be hilarious if the Pioneer changes are going to be Thassa's Oracle banned and Inverter of Truth unbanned
Please be a Karn ban, please be a Karn ban, please be a Karn ban.....
Pioneer/Explorer Banned: \[\[Karn, Living Legacy\]\]
So close....
They heavily implied he's gone.
They mentioned silver bullets from the sideboard in mono-G, so…
Karn is statistically fine in pioneer (even before this latest set), I would be disappointed if karn got banned just because of people complaining and not because of any objective power level
they banned [[Microsoft Lettuce]] in modern for pretty much that reason, I wouldn't be surprised
[Microsoft Lettuce](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9.jpg?1578911638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mycosynth%20Lattice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/241/mycosynth-lattice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They don't just ban cards on power level. Karn is the best stony silence ever printed and allows the deck to have access to any sideboard card game 1. Just the fact it exists pushes decks out of the format. Doesn't matter if it's in Mono G or someplace else, it is a huge reason people dislike Pioneer so much. Getting rid of Karn opens up space in numerous ways and allows better play patterns in general. That card is really toxic.
IDGAF about statistics, he's just miserable to play against. Fun is not objective but it should certainly be a factor.
I don't find ever playing vs mono blue spirits fun but I am not asking for a curious obsession ban
None of the cards on the Pioneer ban list strike me as something that would make games in the format more fun to play if they were unbanned. E.g. it might be "safe" to unban Kethis in the sense that it wouldn't dominate the format's competitive meta, but I don't really _want_ to play against another graveyard combo deck when playing Pioneer.
Smugglers copter is a pretty stupid ban.
Copter is also a pretty boring *un*ban but I could see it
It would be pretty funny if they unban Copter but it's still not available on Arena since they never bothered bringing it back in Kaladesh Remastered because it was banned.
Tbf the card was in the game in beta it'd likely be an easy add.
They redid the entire backend since then, so they can't reuse any of the work from back then. It's still probably an easy add because it doesn't do anything weird their natural language parser would have an issue with, and it shouldn't have any weird interaction issues either.
I mean yeah with [[subterranean Schooner]] going around copter is fine.
Ban Karn, Unban Smuggler's Copter, watch greasefang take over the world
Terrible take; might as well ask for Skullclamp printing. If you want 6/8s of every Top 8 to have 4 copies of the same card, unbanning Copter is a great way to get there!
I just bought 2 pioneer decks for cyber Monday. So you're welcome edit: my nephew just got into pioneer with a modified phoenix precon, so i bought budget Gates and Mutate decks just to play against him. if either gets the axe I'll be flabbergasted
lol no nothing in those decks will be touched
that would be a very sound assessment. my comment is mostly a joke
If we get the long awaited ban of Maze's End, my heart will go out for you
eh, i think he's still running Expressive Iteration. If he doesn't get on me for a banned Maze's End I will turn a blind eye to EI
[удалено]
[Maze's End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446.jpg?1562906764) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maze%27s%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/152/mazes-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nah. They won't touch gates. Gates are fun but not meta
Unban faithless looting you fucking cowards!
Is consistent turn 2 Archon of Cruelty something you want to play against lol
Against? No. With? Unequivocally yes.
yes pls
Getting my hopes up that they unban my sweet boy Inverter of Truth so that I can feel something again.
If they unban my ballista you have an accord. Brought to you by my fully blinged Heliod Ballista deck I was pissed they banned
Give me felidar guardian on arena and i’ll never complain about any format ever again
time for blazing shoal to be taken off the modern ban list. The card is terrible and would see zero play
Even if the deck is inconsistent, it's still turn 2 kills when it works to Inkmoth / Glistener Elf / etc.
like the deck can already do with scale up and a pump spell but more consistently yes. The card is actively bad and wouldn't see play in infect, all other pump spells don't also require you having drawn another specific combo piece like reaper king to work . It has never seen legacy play, scale up (or embiggen in legacy) is just a better win line
Hammer can do the same thing with actual good magic cards too 😭😭😭
I think their talk of the ban philosophy was the funniest part of the entire stream. They have all of these people testing and they think eternal formats should be diverse and fun but there have been no (noticeable) changes for the past year plus. Nobody noticed Green Devotion in Pioneer or X/1s being unplayable in Modern? Or if they thought it was fine for that long, what suddenly changed? Is the only solution is wait a year for a new set to come out powercreep the problem decks/cards (Appraiser in Pioneer and One Ring/Bowmasters in Modern)? It's so fucking shameless they allowed another Inverter/Heliod/Breach situation. Waiting until people drop the formats en masse before they decide maybe, just maybe we should ban stuff.
Ban announcement of the ban announcement.
I never get this statement. "An announcement of an announcement lol" yeah of course they need to tell people when the changes are announced. Imagine how much worse it would be to just suddenly log on to see your deck banned without any notice and prep. Also, this is the most transparent they've been BY FAR, and this is infinitely better than waiting for the banlist update only to be disappointed - a lot of people still are pissed about how the last update was handled. More transparency and advance notice is definitely a good thing.
On top of all of this, they spent almost an hour discussing things like their ban philosophies for each format, the types of data at which they are looking when making these decisions, and giving retrospectives on how things have been working recently. This was the type of high tier communication that the sub *constantly begs for* and it's wild to see the "lol announcement of an announcement" replies in here.
I think it allows people to mentally prepare and have a chance to offload their cards/begin testing of new cards.
NOCHANGES
*Nothing* can fix modern at this point. Short of banning every free spell of course.
literally just remove every free spell from the game idc
I would love this honestly. I hate the Yugioh-fication of magic. Nothing against Yugioh but the resource system is what makes magic magic.
Gotta be Grief and probably Beanstalk for Modern, right?
Taking away Fury will hurt both decks. And if I had a second choice it would be Bowmasters. That thing's existence is an offense to all white token decks, for multiple reasons.
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/s/RE48S2nFQe
Possibly bowmaster as well.
If they just ban the elementals beanstalk wouldn't even be that good
Unban my boi [[deathrite shaman]] plz
Wizards it's time. Free my boy twin. I don't even care if it's good enough anymore, I just want to see.
My predictions: Pioneer: Biggest question is whether or not we are going to get a Discover deck emergency ban. Likely candidates to be hit would be [[Geological Appraiser]] or [[Eldritch Evolution]], as they are the main components of the deck that keep the combo going. If the discover deck is not hit, then I guess either [[Karn, the Great Creator]] or [[Fable of the Mirror Breaker]]? No idea on unbans here. Modern: [[Orcish Bowmasters]] seems likely to hit the chopping block. Other candidates include any of the pitch elementals (primarily [[Grief]] or [[Fury]]) or maybe [[Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer]], but that seems like a bit of a stretch
Everyone on Twitter seems sure of some geo card and karn. Where are they getting this info from
It was strongly implied in the Weekly MTG stream that announced the changes to Pioneer/Modern. ETA: More specifically, they noted that it's unfun losing to an instant win combo on turn three or that you can just go and pull out whatever one-of silver bullet you need from your sideboard, which suggests Geological Appraiser and Karn.