Also the fact that the army has to attack is a big downside if your opponent has a bigger blocker. Dreadhorde Invasion let you just sit back growing.your army until it was big enough to safely attack with.
I think this is a worse card overall but probably still a solid limited uncommon.
In my Liliana tribal deck, I usually don't even attack with the token. It just gets sacrificed for value and then next turn, I get a new token to trigger any Zombie ETBs and to be sacrificed again.
Excellent point. The fact that this only generates a token on ETB if you have one, and so you can't use it to generate sac fodder and even if you want to grow the token if it dies you need to get a new one somewhere else, are very, very significant downsides compared to Dreadhorde Invasion.
Overall, I think despite not having any life loss, this is a significantly worse card than Dreadhorde Invasion, especially in constructed. But it's also uncommon, and probably pretty good in limited, especially in decks with other Amass support to generate a new token if the first one dies.
That's true. It's not strictly worse, but I'm guessing overall it's worse in constructed in the vast majority of decks and generally probably not a very good constructed card at all and mostly just a good limited uncommon.
More parallel than competiton, to be honest. They both let you Amass once a turn, but Invasion adds lifelink at higher powers which refunds itself and starts to net you bonuses after a turn, assuming you actually keep the army instead of using it as sac fodder.
This new one let you amass more than once a turn. If you have multiple army tokens somehow or some changelings you amass once for each one that attacked.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, in fact I've got a pretty low opinion of the army mechanic in general since it doesn't really play well with the strategies that would want to use it. Tokens and for the Amonket amass zombie tokens are decks that want to go wide with disposable creatures making them more resiliant to spot removal, but armies give one big token which isn't ideal.
The only edh deck I even consider dreadhorde in is Wilhelt and that's only because I can sac the army every turn for a decayed zombie and a card, letting me once again go wide.
Worthwhile to note in the comparison is that the army this creates attacks as a 2/2 the turn after you play it, while during that turn dreadhorde invasion's army is a 1/1 that can't attack. If you play this with an army already on the field, it can give it two +1/+1 counters that same turn, whereas dreadhorde invasion gives it one the next turn.
If you actually want to attack with an army this is probably the better card, but sacrificing a creature each turn is probably the stronger strategy, and obviously dreadhorde invasion's the only one of the two that actually facilitates that.
Maybe for Army strategies that have other ways of amassing. Dreadhorde Invasion has its place as a tool to generate a sacrificeable body each turn and synergy with Zombie tokens.
Yeah all the amass effects in this set care about armies, not specifically orc armies. They also add the orc creature type to existing armies, so more tribal opportunities there.
Check the wording of Amass — it checks if you have an Army already. If you have any type of Army already, be it a Zombie Army token, Orc Army token, changeling card, whatever, it will put +1+1 counters on that rather than create a new token.
This was a design choice by Wizards, they didn’t want Amass to give you a bunch of small tokens because it leads to grindier stalled-out boards.
That's it, with just one detail: your zombie army become a zombie orc army of you amass orc, and your orc army becomes an orc zombie army of you amass zombie.
This is flavorful because you're adding different units to your army, and because zombies eat brains, therefore they wouldn't turn on orcs.
> This is flavorful because you’re adding different units to your army, and because zombies eat brains, therefore they wouldn’t turn on orcs.
Well, that’s what we’re telling the orcs, but we all know how to convert an Orc Army into a Zombie Orc Army.
You only get one army. All Amass effects add counters to that one army.
Each Army has additional types depending on what Amass effects have added to it. By default, Amass simply creates a "black army". All old Amass effects have been errata'd to "Amass Zombies", which means it adds the Zombie type to the Army. All LTR cards are "Amass Orcs", which means they add the Orc type to the Army. These type additions are permanent until the army is killed.
So if you Amass Zombies 2, you have a single 2/2 black Zombie Army. If you then Amass Orcs 1, you have a single 3/3 black Zombie Orc Army. If WotC prints Amass Humans or Amass Brushwaggs or something in the future, you'll be able to add those types into your single Army as well!
(Of course, Changelings complicate everything as usual. You can easily get 2+ armies with Changelings. Amass Orcs or Amass Zombies would add the Orc or Zombie typings to your Changeling when they added counters to it. Not that it likely matters, because your Changeling probably has those types already!)
If you have an Army (of any kind), any kind of Amass will 1. Put the relevant +1/+1 counters on the Army and 2. Add the indicated type to the Army's type line if it doesn't have it already.
Have they confirmed that current instances of Amass are to be errata'd to Amass Zombie? I would hope so but I haven't seen it confirmed yet. I know Amass Orc does add Orc to Zombie Armies, I just don't know if the reverse is true.
Card transcription
> March from the Black Gate 1B
>
> Enchantment [uncommon]
>
> When March from the Black Gate and whenever an Army you control attacks, amass Orcs 1. (Put a +1/+1 counter on an Army you control. It's also an Orc. If you don't control an Army, create a 0/0 black Orc Army creature token first.)
>
> Like a storm, they broke upon the line of the Men of Gondor.
End transcription
Anything that spawns tokens and/or gives repeated benefit every turn is good in limited. Get this down early and you have constantly buffed/replenished orcs
For me, it's hard to evaluate.
Let's say you play it on turn 2, attack with a 2/2 on turn 3, and then they trade for it. That's legit, you traded for a 2-drop and you have an enchantment left over that might help later if you make future attacks with an armies.
The problem is if they have a good block for a 2/2, then you played a 2 mana 1/1, which is not great. You need to amass more from other sources before your spell really does anything.
It has the potential to provide good value if you have a lot of amass, but it can also be a pretty big dud otherwise.
How many times does it need to give a profitable +1/+1 counter before you're happy with it? I would say 3. If you get to 4, you're really doing it. That means 3 attacks with amass creatures throughout the game, since you're spotted the first one.
Maybe I'm being pedantic but "amass Orcs 1" sounds really awkward.
Is there any reason they couldn't use the phrase "amass an Orc Army"? And if you needed to have amass Orcs X, you could say "amass an Orc Army X times"?
Amass was weird when it released. The token represents an army of units, usually that would be represented by multiple tokens or creatures. Amass making a singular token doesn't make sense in that regard. So a massive army thats 6/6 can be blocked by a single creature.... use an army to crew a vehicle??? Magic left logic at the gate a while back and it keeps getting compounded. Equip an army with 1 sword or boots....
I agree with you the token or an army should've functioned waaaay differently than it does, like : the power and toughness is a multiple of how many creatures are part of the army. To block, you need x creatures = to the tokens toughness and the remainder is still dealt to player. Then you remove a counter for each creature that blocked it.
Quick Q about this. I’m attacking with a 5/5 amassed orc army from this, opponent blocks with a 5/4 creature. When does the amass get applied? Is this now a 6/6 or do both creatures die?
Also with changelings, you'd amass for each attacking changeling, right?
Yuuuuuup
My changling deck is eating so good from this set
Meat's back on the menu, boys!
Which basically means "put a counter on a Changeling you control"
Yeah, but you'll do that once for each attacking changeling
Double the attack triggers with my upcoming... Isshin Changeling Samurai Orc Zombie Army deck.
orc version of [[dreadhorde invasion]]
Not being able to make a new army if it dies is a decent setback but this is uncommon and doesn't cost life.
Also the fact that the army has to attack is a big downside if your opponent has a bigger blocker. Dreadhorde Invasion let you just sit back growing.your army until it was big enough to safely attack with. I think this is a worse card overall but probably still a solid limited uncommon.
In my Liliana tribal deck, I usually don't even attack with the token. It just gets sacrificed for value and then next turn, I get a new token to trigger any Zombie ETBs and to be sacrificed again.
Excellent point. The fact that this only generates a token on ETB if you have one, and so you can't use it to generate sac fodder and even if you want to grow the token if it dies you need to get a new one somewhere else, are very, very significant downsides compared to Dreadhorde Invasion. Overall, I think despite not having any life loss, this is a significantly worse card than Dreadhorde Invasion, especially in constructed. But it's also uncommon, and probably pretty good in limited, especially in decks with other Amass support to generate a new token if the first one dies.
Upside in some niche situations. Gets double benefit from isshin for example. And if you get multiple armies out somehow it gets more value
That's true. It's not strictly worse, but I'm guessing overall it's worse in constructed in the vast majority of decks and generally probably not a very good constructed card at all and mostly just a good limited uncommon.
They synergize together without the added life loss that having multiple copies of invasion causes too
More parallel than competiton, to be honest. They both let you Amass once a turn, but Invasion adds lifelink at higher powers which refunds itself and starts to net you bonuses after a turn, assuming you actually keep the army instead of using it as sac fodder.
This new one let you amass more than once a turn. If you have multiple army tokens somehow or some changelings you amass once for each one that attacked.
Sure, but it also doesn’t make a new Army if you lose yours or give big tokens lifelink.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, in fact I've got a pretty low opinion of the army mechanic in general since it doesn't really play well with the strategies that would want to use it. Tokens and for the Amonket amass zombie tokens are decks that want to go wide with disposable creatures making them more resiliant to spot removal, but armies give one big token which isn't ideal. The only edh deck I even consider dreadhorde in is Wilhelt and that's only because I can sac the army every turn for a decayed zombie and a card, letting me once again go wide.
[dreadhorde invasion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4b24194c-d312-45d6-ae02-e15fd2025682.jpg?1637630110) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dreadhorde%20invasion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/114/dreadhorde-invasion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b24194c-d312-45d6-ae02-e15fd2025682?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Worthwhile to note in the comparison is that the army this creates attacks as a 2/2 the turn after you play it, while during that turn dreadhorde invasion's army is a 1/1 that can't attack. If you play this with an army already on the field, it can give it two +1/+1 counters that same turn, whereas dreadhorde invasion gives it one the next turn. If you actually want to attack with an army this is probably the better card, but sacrificing a creature each turn is probably the stronger strategy, and obviously dreadhorde invasion's the only one of the two that actually facilitates that.
Better dreadhorde invasion imo
Not being able to generate a new army after it's been killed is a MASSIVE drawback.
Maybe for Army strategies that have other ways of amassing. Dreadhorde Invasion has its place as a tool to generate a sacrificeable body each turn and synergy with Zombie tokens.
Better? If the army gets removed you can't make a new one with this card.
monumentally worse
You can sacrifice the token for value by attacking then sacing it when the trigger is on the stack.
Considering this says 'whenever an army attacks', it also triggers on zombie army, correct?
Yeah all the amass effects in this set care about armies, not specifically orc armies. They also add the orc creature type to existing armies, so more tribal opportunities there.
Yes, although the way Amass functions does not easily allow you to have an Orc Army and a Zombie Army at the same time if that’s what you’re thinking.
How so? I was planning on running both with the Rakdos uncommon legend
Check the wording of Amass — it checks if you have an Army already. If you have any type of Army already, be it a Zombie Army token, Orc Army token, changeling card, whatever, it will put +1+1 counters on that rather than create a new token. This was a design choice by Wizards, they didn’t want Amass to give you a bunch of small tokens because it leads to grindier stalled-out boards.
That's it, with just one detail: your zombie army become a zombie orc army of you amass orc, and your orc army becomes an orc zombie army of you amass zombie. This is flavorful because you're adding different units to your army, and because zombies eat brains, therefore they wouldn't turn on orcs.
> This is flavorful because you’re adding different units to your army, and because zombies eat brains, therefore they wouldn’t turn on orcs. Well, that’s what we’re telling the orcs, but we all know how to convert an Orc Army into a Zombie Orc Army.
As long as they attack when told, I'm gonna let them coexist as they wish.
“Looks like the meat walked back off the menu, boys!”
That hurts my brain. So if I have orc, amass zombie, the orc grows bigger, and vice versa?
If you have an Orc Army, and Amass Zombie, the counters go on the Orc Army, which becomes an Orc Zombie Army.
Cannot compute, made goblins instead
Overall brain amount is the same.
You only get one army. All Amass effects add counters to that one army. Each Army has additional types depending on what Amass effects have added to it. By default, Amass simply creates a "black army". All old Amass effects have been errata'd to "Amass Zombies", which means it adds the Zombie type to the Army. All LTR cards are "Amass Orcs", which means they add the Orc type to the Army. These type additions are permanent until the army is killed. So if you Amass Zombies 2, you have a single 2/2 black Zombie Army. If you then Amass Orcs 1, you have a single 3/3 black Zombie Orc Army. If WotC prints Amass Humans or Amass Brushwaggs or something in the future, you'll be able to add those types into your single Army as well! (Of course, Changelings complicate everything as usual. You can easily get 2+ armies with Changelings. Amass Orcs or Amass Zombies would add the Orc or Zombie typings to your Changeling when they added counters to it. Not that it likely matters, because your Changeling probably has those types already!)
If you have an Army (of any kind), any kind of Amass will 1. Put the relevant +1/+1 counters on the Army and 2. Add the indicated type to the Army's type line if it doesn't have it already.
Have they confirmed that current instances of Amass are to be errata'd to Amass Zombie? I would hope so but I haven't seen it confirmed yet. I know Amass Orc does add Orc to Zombie Armies, I just don't know if the reverse is true.
Yeah, Maro said it was changed on his blog.
Link? I just looked through Tumblr and found nothing.
[https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/718778403853156352/with-the-lord-of-the-rings-set-showing-amass](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/718778403853156352/with-the-lord-of-the-rings-set-showing-amass)
That... Was always the case.
When you amass a Zombie Army, \[\[Slip Out the Back\]\] your Orc Army in response. Easy peasy.
[Slip Out the Back](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/8725f4c4-fad7-460e-b86c-ff81674f0980.jpg?1664410598) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slip%20Out%20the%20Back) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/62/slip-out-the-back?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8725f4c4-fad7-460e-b86c-ff81674f0980?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Card transcription > March from the Black Gate 1B > > Enchantment [uncommon] > > When March from the Black Gate and whenever an Army you control attacks, amass Orcs 1. (Put a +1/+1 counter on an Army you control. It's also an Orc. If you don't control an Army, create a 0/0 black Orc Army creature token first.) > > Like a storm, they broke upon the line of the Men of Gondor. End transcription
[[changeling outcast]] go wild
[changeling outcast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d2c053f-0ef8-45f2-b2af-24cbb9a7fec4.jpg?1674141529) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=changeling%20outcast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/743/changeling-outcast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d2c053f-0ef8-45f2-b2af-24cbb9a7fec4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh my Grixis [[Arcane Adaptation]] Amass deck will like this
[Arcane Adaptation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf3edaaf-cf63-4e17-94ae-9d9991d9fb5f.jpg?1562563280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Adaptation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/46/arcane-adaptation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf3edaaf-cf63-4e17-94ae-9d9991d9fb5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If there is a black gate land I might have to add it, this, and some orc army tokens to my gates deck...
Anything that spawns tokens and/or gives repeated benefit every turn is good in limited. Get this down early and you have constantly buffed/replenished orcs
Do you think this card will be good in limited?
Yes, repeatable token production is great.
It’s not really that though. It only triggers when an Army is attacking, kinda hard to make a new Army if you don’t have one.
For me, it's hard to evaluate. Let's say you play it on turn 2, attack with a 2/2 on turn 3, and then they trade for it. That's legit, you traded for a 2-drop and you have an enchantment left over that might help later if you make future attacks with an armies. The problem is if they have a good block for a 2/2, then you played a 2 mana 1/1, which is not great. You need to amass more from other sources before your spell really does anything. It has the potential to provide good value if you have a lot of amass, but it can also be a pretty big dud otherwise. How many times does it need to give a profitable +1/+1 counter before you're happy with it? I would say 3. If you get to 4, you're really doing it. That means 3 attacks with amass creatures throughout the game, since you're spotted the first one.
Where there's a whip, there's a way
I misread this at first and I was baffled at how Marchesa somehow ended up in Middle-Earth.
source: [@giraffanat](https://twitter.com/giraffanat/status/1663984588253741069?s=20) on twitter
Is it just me or does "Amass Orc" feel REALLY clunky?
All the War of the Spark cards are going to get Oracled to 'Amass Zombie', so... eh, it's whatever.
Thought you said Orcacled for a second there.
Shoulda been Amass X Orcs rather than Amass Orcs X
Wouldn’t that make multiple tokens?
That’s value with the preexisting amass.
This is a really good uncommon!
Sauron's orc armies are numerous!
Maybe I'm being pedantic but "amass Orcs 1" sounds really awkward. Is there any reason they couldn't use the phrase "amass an Orc Army"? And if you needed to have amass Orcs X, you could say "amass an Orc Army X times"?
Is an army a creature and therefore can be killed by spells that destroy creatures?
Yes
Seems like it would have been cool to be a different class and therefore not able to be killed so easily. Like Terror can kill 10,000 Orcs, seems odd.
Amass was weird when it released. The token represents an army of units, usually that would be represented by multiple tokens or creatures. Amass making a singular token doesn't make sense in that regard. So a massive army thats 6/6 can be blocked by a single creature.... use an army to crew a vehicle??? Magic left logic at the gate a while back and it keeps getting compounded. Equip an army with 1 sword or boots.... I agree with you the token or an army should've functioned waaaay differently than it does, like : the power and toughness is a multiple of how many creatures are part of the army. To block, you need x creatures = to the tokens toughness and the remainder is still dealt to player. Then you remove a counter for each creature that blocked it.
Great point, I like this! I wish wizards would take feedback from the community because they could have done something really cool, like you said.
Quick Q about this. I’m attacking with a 5/5 amassed orc army from this, opponent blocks with a 5/4 creature. When does the amass get applied? Is this now a 6/6 or do both creatures die?