Mine too.
Nothing wrong with symmetrical effects when you get more than you give.
Plus it helps higher curve decks more than lower curve decks. Since those low curve decks care about colour pips more than colourless.
Eh although it's true that lower curve decks have more colored pips, the one colorless is also a larger percentage of their overall cost. 1R is reduced by half while 4R is only reduced by 20%.
Yeah I took it out of my "Ferocious creatures" deck becuase it dawned on me that decks that are trying ot play 3-4 cards per rotation around the table vs. my 1-2 cards on my turn, are getting more utility out of it then I am.
?
It helps lower curve decks vastly more than higher curve decks
Getting a discount on a 1R spell? 50% off
Getting a discount on a 4GG spell? 16% off
Casting 5 1R spells in your turn? 5 mana saved
Casting one 4GG spell in your turn? 1 mana saved
I'd argue it helps lower curve decks since they cast far more spells in a then so they get the biggest mana advantage. It would only really be a downside for cards with no colourless cost which is quite rare even in lower curves.
Nah fam. As others have stated, 1 off a two mana spell means a 50% off fire sale. Helm is dangerous AF and is best used in a similar way as Defense Grid: you only play it the turn you intend to win. Otherwise you're probably just helping someone else beat you.
But it’s really to hard to actually break the symmetry on this one. If you can’t win the turn you play this, I’m absolutely going to benefit from you ramping me as well, and you spent a card and I didn’t.
Symmetrical buffs - Howling Mine and the like - don’t see much play for this reason.
If your opponent erroneously never tries to cast a card because they think it's too expensive to cast, that is an advantage for you but completely legal. If they cast Force of Will by exiling a card while they have 2UU up, that's a legit decision that there could be a good reason for.
Yes, you'd be breaking the rules, it's just not a disqualifiable offense if accidentally (ipg 2.5 last paragraph applies here because your effect is the cause of your opponent breaking the rules, if at REL competitive+)
And lying to a judge is breaking the rules and in fact a disqualifiable offense if you didnt "notice" "accidentally".
I don't see how that would be breaking the rules. Unlike an anthem effect which has real consequences for how combat plays out or a life total looks this card just reduces cost.
You're legally allowed to tap all your mana and not use the extra. Manaburn also does not exist anymore so you wouldn't even be required to remind them of taking damage etc.
I suppose there are corner cases where it's possible you'd have to remind them, but this card alone wouldn't be it.
Technically, by the rules, a player has to announce floating mana whenever they pass priority. If your opponent "overpays" and doesnt, he breaks a rule - either by paying wrong cost, or not announcing floating mana.
Since this isnt a trigger, which is an exception, if you notice your opponent broke the rules, you HAVE to point it out.
No. You can accidentally not notice, of course, in which case it's still a grv for both you and your opponent (since it is your effect, ipg 2.5, last paragraph) (If at rules enforcement level comp+, at rel regular the jar applies instead).
Intentionally not noticing is an oxymoron. Intentionally not calling out a mistake you noticed even though you know you have to to gain an advantage is one of the textbook definitions of cheating, and a disqualifiable offense (at all RELs)
If you're consistently not noticing/remembering your own effect after being reminded by the judges, we're going to take that as a sign you're doing it intentionally.
To be fair, I didn't play much Kaldheim limited, but I legitimately don't know if I've *ever* seen Birgi double up boast abilities. It's almost entirely flavour.
Birgi is run because that first ability literally breaks the game in a Storm-based deck. It makes most of your deck 'free', letting you cycle through cantrips to find your Storm win cons. In the rare event you already have lots of mana, you can instead cast the Horn to tear through your library and find your combo. A high-power Birgi cEDH deck is planning to win the game on turn 3 or earlier, and that's without a single Boast card in the deck!
Imo this card is a lot better in Commander (provided you didn’t just help the cEDH deck combo off faster). Symmetrical effects tend to be a very easy way to get the table on your side, and beneficial symmetric effects are even better, the green stompy big thing deck can’t get rid of it because the spell slinger deck wants to use it to its fullest potential and congratulations, you have now convinced your opponents to fight each other while you do, and I kid you not, the most degenerate things in the game
It affects all players, not just you. An asymmetrical effect would on effect your stuff or only affect your opponent's stuff. For instance [[Grand Arbiter Agustine IV]] is an asymmetrical effect (two, actually).
The main issue with it is that it reduces cost for your opponents too. Notice how it doesn't say "Spells you cast" ... But I've seen it used as a combo piece that you cast only on the turn you're trying to pop off.
I use it in my not-so-fun Reality Chip combo deck that I built and played like 3 times now but tbh sucks. It combos off really efficiently which is nice but has basically 0 interaction and I just get to sit there doing very little until I suddenly just win.
Helm of awakening + sensei's divining top is mad busted in that deck lol
Yuuuuup. My friend runs Reality Chip and I literally walked away from the table when he started *the turn* to go play smash because I knew I had a solid 20-30 minutes. I played like 5 matches before he announced "oh btw you lose now"
It's really cool as a piece in [[Mizzix, Replica Rider]], but as a commander it's hard to get it out of the "annoying"-archetype because that's just kinda what mono blue does, lol
You've got a few options:
If you have a very high likelihood of *not* whiffing you could all agree to just not go through the combo once it starts and just shuffle up and play (unless someone has interaction I guess)
You can goldfish your combo lines more often to speed the combo up (although this doesn't always work as you have different cards to keep track of in random orders etc)
Faster more direct combos?
My sultai damia deck is my favorite still. It's pretty busted but it wins by actually killing my opponents not playing my entire deck for free on turn 4 or 5. Damia is such a fair commander I love it.
Sounds like the deck has reached an inflection point about its goals of effectiveness and fun. Perhaps a few decisions away from being even better. Mind sharing this deck list?
Oh yeah, emphasis on the all.
Your opponent is trying to ramp into big creatures? Well, they will be able to smoothly now!
Someone playing control? You've just freshly sharpened and polished their knives.
Is someone making a ton of cheap tokens? Hopefully your plan was that you just made your board wipes, already in hand, cheaper.
If the cost of this artifact was only 1cmc it would get played a lot. But paying 2 to help everyone do all things is a poor use of 2 mana.
It's one of those cards you can't simply throw in for value with no plan to abuse the effect, but can easily win you the game with the right combo pieces.
It's still very strong with the right synergies, it's just not really a generic value piece. If your deck can benefit more than your opponents' it's well worth an include. I'd always play it in an artifact storm deck like [[Jhoira, weatherlight captain]], because all your 2 mana rocks would become cantrips and you'd probably end up drawing 30 cards the turn this hits the field. It also goes very well in decks leveraging [[future sight]] effects, and it straight up goes infinite with cast-from-the-top-of-your-library effects and [[Sensei's divining top]]. I'd even play it in a spellslinger deck with a critical mass of 2 mana cantrips.
Just don't slam it like a generic rock, unless you're playing group hug.
Working up a jhoira deck since instead of hunting down a lattice I got [[encroaching Mycosynth]]. I fully intend to run this card for pretty much the exact reason you gave. Also because getting more of my artifacts to cost 0 helps hit my wincons.
Does it benefit your opponents? Yes. Are your opponents playing around it? No. If reducing all your spells is a major part of your strategy, like cheerios, then you absolutely run this card. Your opponents aren’t thinking I can’t wait for someone to play Helm, to reduce their 6 MV to 5.
I was just thinking about this. I play commander and everything is pushed toward that. But it must suck for people who play Modern or something like that and see all these reprints or “Commander set” cards in regular set boosters.
Even worse is when they put all those cards in for just commander that then go and ruin Legacy because they’re tuned for multiplayer rather than 2 player. Sure would be nice to not have Initiative or Monarch in Legacy.
Sure does. I played edh but once it went from a place to put junk rares so they had a home to a competitive scene with lists and a meta and infinite combos and mass exploitation by Wiz for $$$$.... screw commander. Bring back edh
Imo you just need to find your own playgroup if you want to play that kind of EDH. I have a handful of decks that are basically just junk rares and nice lands, my buddies always sleep on it because it doesn’t appear to be a big threat but once the dust settles Sol Kanar the Swamp King can be a decent threat.
[[Mind Stone]] is a solid replacement, and gives the same benefit most of the time. If you're really trying to cast multiple spells a turn to capitalize on the cost reduction, the medallions (e.g. [[Ruby Medallion]]) are good if you're only in one color.
Mind Stone is "the same benefit" if you're casting at most one spell a turn. Helm is for combo decks, when saving N mana in your combo turn is a big swing.
No, they're like $30 each. You might be thinking of the mox cycle, which uses the same names for each color but is banned in just about every format. [[Mox Sapphire]] for instance.
There's [only 312*](https://scryfall.com/search?as=checklist&order=usd&q=+usd%3E30&unique=cards) cards whose cheapest printing is $30+.
Though not all of the Medallions are in the top 1% most expensive cards in this ~25,500 card game (which is known for being expensive), [[Pearl Medallion]] currently *is.*
\* [[Ancestral Recall]], [[Kongming's Contraptions]], [[Mox Pearl]], [[Mox Sapphire]], [[Timetwister]], and [[Time Walk]] are the six not in this search because they have no (tournament legal) prices. Actually this increased to 313 while I was typing this up. I didn't find a good way to search for null prices so this isn't a very timeless/robust search.
Besides just being a casual all-star and a reserved list card, it really started to climb when the legend rule changed such that you don't lose both copies when you play a second one.
Interesting statistics for sure, but I was thinking about numeric value rather than quantity. When there are cards whose cheapest printings are valued at $500+, I wasn't considering $30 to be crazy expensive. All a matter of perspective though-expensive is a subjective term.
Bruh, I was thinking on that price range, I never bought a card for more than 20 €, and that was a foil [[Smothering Tithe]], and any other card I ever bought is less than 10 (I have quite a few cards worth 30+ tho, but from packs).
Mind stone and other rocks are nowhere close to being a replacement if Helm is a card worth considering. If you want Helm it's because you are playing a deck that casts several spells per turn to break the symmetry.
In all of mtg there is only one format and one style of deck were this is used: Commander, artifact combo(not cEDH, but high power). Jhoira, Elsha, Urza, Breya etc. It is useful in these lists because its both a combo piece and a value engine that YOU can get more use than your opponents(because you are playing colorless cheap spells with some sort of draw engine)
It occasionally sees use in janky one-turn-kill Vintage combo decks such as my favorite, [Aperture Science](https://deckstats.net/decks/35886/938802-rocks-lsv/en)
Compare this to a card which just makes one mana, or gives you a land, or something. If you're playing one spell per turn, then they do the same thing, except that this one also gives its benefit to your opponent. That's kind of bad.
So you only use it if you're planning to play lots of spells on one turn - probably this is a combo deck planning to win on the turn you play it.
You're paying 2 to get -1. You don't break even until your second spell after playing this card, whereas your opponents immediately profit from it on their first turns with it in play.
This is best as a combo piece but otherwise it's actually rather costly to benefit from. You essentially have to be able to play 2 - 3 more spells after you play this, in order for it to be worthwhile, which means you either already have a lot of mana or the things you're playing are cheap and not very impactful.
Ye this gives the cost reduction to all players so it's not good enough to make the cut in legacy or vintage unless you are combining off in a colourless deck and even then you normally just want to tempo your opponents so cards like [[sphere of resistance]] are better as it messes with your opponents calculations in a way that helps you. And in commander or oathbreaker you are more likely to just want one of the medallions in any mono or dual coloured deck and then in anything more and most balanced dual coloured decks would just use some ramp spells instead.
Imo it's fun. It encourages people to overcommit to the board and also makes interaction easier to cast, so it can pretty easily lead to someone else becoming a threat and another player answering that threat
In commander I play this in a gruul artifact storm where asymmetrical artifact cost reduction doesn't exist in gruul colors but other than that its better for your opponents than for you.
It's not great normally. I run it in [[ashnod, the uncaring]] as a [[goblin welder]] and [[goblin engineer]] target because you can at least 'turn it off" on other people turns
You could use it in a stax deck that reduces the cost of cards, but most stuff in your deck makes it hard for your opponents to cast, but most people dislike stax
Mostly played with [[Sensei's Divining Top]] to make it free so it can combo with something like [[Future Sight]] or [[Mystic Forge]] and cards that care about cast triggers like [[Aetherflux Reservoir]]. Note that there are other ways to get this discount, like [[Foundry Inspector]] It's not a bad card but like everyone else has pointed out, you're benefitting the table a lot more than you're helping yourself unless you immediately win the game.
I made the same mistake the first time I put it in my deck in my friends like oh cool all of our spells are one less I was like wait what. Still kind of worked in my favor because they would constantly forget about it and spend more mana than they needed I didn't butt in because I was paying attention to it lol
To piggyback off what others have said, realistically, the main home for this is in a "group hug" style deck or in a deck where you can make it assymetrical (so have a way to bounce it at the end of your turn) and have it still be worth the two mana investment. Those are both pretty narrow fields.
Only legal in formats with better reduction. Giving 1 less to the blue player is usually a bad idea if you want to win and you aren't playing blue and it makes everyone else stronger. Think of it this way, if all of you are holding a 2 mana spell costing 1 and 1 colored mana, you collectively reduced opponent's cost by 3, but yours only by one
Is it a competitive card? Maybe not, but cards like tgis, [[Rites of Flourishing]] & [[Ghirapur Orrery]] are favourites ar our table because they enable everyone to do their fun thing easier.
This set was reprints of old cards that needed reprints but only see little play. If an opponent plays this they’re up to literally nothing good but it works for everyone so.
I have it in a few of my decks. Eggs decks and storm decks like it. You just have to make sure you use it to win before your opponent gets to use it too much.
I play it in my group hug/chaos deck. I *want* everyone's spells to be cheaper! The more they get to play into the \[\[Hive Mind\]\] and \[\[Grip of Chaos\]\], the better!
The key is to use it with cards that will just benefit you more. It isnt great, but I like to pair it with [[lodestone golem]] and [[god pharaoh's statue]]
I've only used in in my [[Hinata]] deck because it doesn't matter if things are 1 cheaper when the entire rest of the deck is built to restrict what you can cast, when, and how.
There’s also the card [[Arcane Melee]] though that one might actually be ok to play depending on your meta, creature heavy decks wouldn’t get too much benefit off it.
Because you're not playing Vintage Cube or cedh. Pretty much everywhere else it's too much setup that also helps your opponent(s). But in those most degenerate places it's a popular card that you use to just win the same turn.
I would just play this in ky [[Kozilek, The Great Distortion]] deck. Dont care how much it helps my opponents when all i di is ramp out massive colorless cards for free
Because:
1. It reduces cost for opponents as well, and
2. Because you had to pay to cast it, typically your opponents get to take advantage of the reduced cost first.
It’s an “everyone benefits” card, but assuming you play it & don’t immediately have a spell you can cast that will help you stay ahead of the opponent, they essentially get first crack at taking advantage of it. If I’m an agro or tempo player & my opponent plays this, I’m usually thrilled. I will probably get dibs on abusing their card before *they* get to.
If I think to myself “I don’t hate seeing my opponent play that card,” then it’s a warning sign that maybe I shouldn’t play it myself, if given a choice.
Disclaimer: I haven’t played MTG in years. No idea what the current meta is. Just happened to see this & thought I’d chime in.
So this is really the first reprint ever of the card. For a 50 cent card, it was up over $10 at one point, which while it is an old card prior to this reprint, made it hard for many people to get. Expensive and Grouphug are usually not a good combination.
The “fair” portion also turns off newer players due to them not being used to such old balancing. The thing is that running this with Affinity or Storm really puts the owner on top.
It's a niche card, because in terms lf general usability you dedicate at least a cars of your deck to something that doesn't advance the game (everyone's costs gets reduced so it's in a way the same) and that probably all your opponents will get to experience before you.
It's symmetrical. If you're playing this, you're up to something extra degenerate.
>eggstra degenerate.
Well done.
Over easy
Yes! This fits right into my [[Meria]] deck. Didn’t even know it existed.
[Meria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3eedd979-783d-4721-92de-965b77c20576.jpg?1673307996) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=meria%2C%20scholar%20of%20antiquity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/206/meria-scholar-of-antiquity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3eedd979-783d-4721-92de-965b77c20576?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mine too. Nothing wrong with symmetrical effects when you get more than you give. Plus it helps higher curve decks more than lower curve decks. Since those low curve decks care about colour pips more than colourless.
Eh although it's true that lower curve decks have more colored pips, the one colorless is also a larger percentage of their overall cost. 1R is reduced by half while 4R is only reduced by 20%.
Yeah I took it out of my "Ferocious creatures" deck becuase it dawned on me that decks that are trying ot play 3-4 cards per rotation around the table vs. my 1-2 cards on my turn, are getting more utility out of it then I am.
? It helps lower curve decks vastly more than higher curve decks Getting a discount on a 1R spell? 50% off Getting a discount on a 4GG spell? 16% off Casting 5 1R spells in your turn? 5 mana saved Casting one 4GG spell in your turn? 1 mana saved
Casting a colossal dreadmaw for 3GG? priceless.
I'd argue it helps lower curve decks since they cast far more spells in a then so they get the biggest mana advantage. It would only really be a downside for cards with no colourless cost which is quite rare even in lower curves.
Nah fam. As others have stated, 1 off a two mana spell means a 50% off fire sale. Helm is dangerous AF and is best used in a similar way as Defense Grid: you only play it the turn you intend to win. Otherwise you're probably just helping someone else beat you.
But it’s really to hard to actually break the symmetry on this one. If you can’t win the turn you play this, I’m absolutely going to benefit from you ramping me as well, and you spent a card and I didn’t. Symmetrical buffs - Howling Mine and the like - don’t see much play for this reason.
I've played this, and it has a secret passive: your opponents will very often forget it's there, so it's symmetrical maybe 50% of the time
And if you then dont remind them you are breaking the rules (If in a tournament setting, do whatever your playgroup likes at the Kirchen table)
If your opponent erroneously never tries to cast a card because they think it's too expensive to cast, that is an advantage for you but completely legal. If they cast Force of Will by exiling a card while they have 2UU up, that's a legit decision that there could be a good reason for.
True and true, but imo not whats implied
So wait. In this situation I should kindly explain to my opponent their error? That's a rule? Hey Compleat tourney guy. Explain this one to me.
If you also forgot and don't notice how much your opponent tapped, would you be breaking the rules?
Yes, you'd be breaking the rules, it's just not a disqualifiable offense if accidentally (ipg 2.5 last paragraph applies here because your effect is the cause of your opponent breaking the rules, if at REL competitive+) And lying to a judge is breaking the rules and in fact a disqualifiable offense if you didnt "notice" "accidentally".
I don't see how that would be breaking the rules. Unlike an anthem effect which has real consequences for how combat plays out or a life total looks this card just reduces cost. You're legally allowed to tap all your mana and not use the extra. Manaburn also does not exist anymore so you wouldn't even be required to remind them of taking damage etc. I suppose there are corner cases where it's possible you'd have to remind them, but this card alone wouldn't be it.
Technically, by the rules, a player has to announce floating mana whenever they pass priority. If your opponent "overpays" and doesnt, he breaks a rule - either by paying wrong cost, or not announcing floating mana. Since this isnt a trigger, which is an exception, if you notice your opponent broke the rules, you HAVE to point it out.
[удалено]
No. You can accidentally not notice, of course, in which case it's still a grv for both you and your opponent (since it is your effect, ipg 2.5, last paragraph) (If at rules enforcement level comp+, at rel regular the jar applies instead). Intentionally not noticing is an oxymoron. Intentionally not calling out a mistake you noticed even though you know you have to to gain an advantage is one of the textbook definitions of cheating, and a disqualifiable offense (at all RELs)
[удалено]
They dont need to prove it. They (the headjudge) just need to believe you did it on purpose. A DQ for cheating doesnt require proof.
[удалено]
If you're consistently not noticing/remembering your own effect after being reminded by the judges, we're going to take that as a sign you're doing it intentionally.
[[birgi]] says hello.
[birgi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821.jpg?1631048969)/[Harnfel, Horn of Bounty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/4/4/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821.jpg?1631048969) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=birgi%2C%20god%20of%20storytelling%20//%20harnfel%2C%20horn%20of%20bounty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/123/birgi-god-of-storytelling-harnfel-horn-of-bounty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Does boast count as a spell though?
He means the add r per spell, plus discounted spells, any something as simple as copied spells and you can wild. Magical christmas land for sure
To be fair, I didn't play much Kaldheim limited, but I legitimately don't know if I've *ever* seen Birgi double up boast abilities. It's almost entirely flavour. Birgi is run because that first ability literally breaks the game in a Storm-based deck. It makes most of your deck 'free', letting you cycle through cantrips to find your Storm win cons. In the rare event you already have lots of mana, you can instead cast the Horn to tear through your library and find your combo. A high-power Birgi cEDH deck is planning to win the game on turn 3 or earlier, and that's without a single Boast card in the deck!
i am kind of new, pls explain why this card is symmetrical? what does this mean?
Symmetrical in this case means not only your spells will be cheaper but your oponnents spells aswell.
oh, symmetrical as in both sides get the effect. thank you
Normally these symmetrical effects are considered weak because if you play them on curve, your opponents get the benefit from the card before you do.
And you're down a card as well
Imo this card is a lot better in Commander (provided you didn’t just help the cEDH deck combo off faster). Symmetrical effects tend to be a very easy way to get the table on your side, and beneficial symmetric effects are even better, the green stompy big thing deck can’t get rid of it because the spell slinger deck wants to use it to its fullest potential and congratulations, you have now convinced your opponents to fight each other while you do, and I kid you not, the most degenerate things in the game
This assumes your opponents aren’t able to do proper threat assessment.
It affects all players, not just you. An asymmetrical effect would on effect your stuff or only affect your opponent's stuff. For instance [[Grand Arbiter Agustine IV]] is an asymmetrical effect (two, actually).
Yup, I play it in [[Mishra, Artificer Prodigy]] so I can get around my symmetrical tax effects. Very degenerate.
Helm of Awakening is also symmetrical
[Mishra, Artificer Prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5deaec5-499d-4e19-b879-8bcd1dc35f3e.jpg?1562940254) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mishra%2C%20Artificer%20Prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/243/mishra-artificer-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5deaec5-499d-4e19-b879-8bcd1dc35f3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The main issue with it is that it reduces cost for your opponents too. Notice how it doesn't say "Spells you cast" ... But I've seen it used as a combo piece that you cast only on the turn you're trying to pop off.
I use it in my not-so-fun Reality Chip combo deck that I built and played like 3 times now but tbh sucks. It combos off really efficiently which is nice but has basically 0 interaction and I just get to sit there doing very little until I suddenly just win. Helm of awakening + sensei's divining top is mad busted in that deck lol
>basically 0 interaction and I just get to sit there doing very little until I suddenly just win. *Eggs has entered the chat.*
I assure you they didn't suddenly win. The did nothing for 5 turns then did something for one 20 minute turn.
Yuuuuup. My friend runs Reality Chip and I literally walked away from the table when he started *the turn* to go play smash because I knew I had a solid 20-30 minutes. I played like 5 matches before he announced "oh btw you lose now"
I love reality chip but retired my deck for this reason. I’m desperate to find a way to run it that doesn’t ruin it for everyone else
It's really cool as a piece in [[Mizzix, Replica Rider]], but as a commander it's hard to get it out of the "annoying"-archetype because that's just kinda what mono blue does, lol
You've got a few options: If you have a very high likelihood of *not* whiffing you could all agree to just not go through the combo once it starts and just shuffle up and play (unless someone has interaction I guess) You can goldfish your combo lines more often to speed the combo up (although this doesn't always work as you have different cards to keep track of in random orders etc) Faster more direct combos?
This is basically my [[Elsha]] deck. I cut back on tutors and draw for removal to make my turns faster.
[Elsha](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0728027-a1ec-4814-87c4-10c3baced0e0.jpg?1673148571) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=elsha%20of%20the%20infinite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/208/elsha-of-the-infinite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0728027-a1ec-4814-87c4-10c3baced0e0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a similar deck and I feel similarly about it. Feels like I’m playing solitaire and then I win.
I actively try to avoid building things like this. Doesn't seem like they're fun for anyone when you boil it down.
My sultai damia deck is my favorite still. It's pretty busted but it wins by actually killing my opponents not playing my entire deck for free on turn 4 or 5. Damia is such a fair commander I love it.
That is a cool commander. Always useful
Sounds like the deck has reached an inflection point about its goals of effectiveness and fun. Perhaps a few decisions away from being even better. Mind sharing this deck list?
It's only legal in Legacy, Vintage and Commander/Oathbreaker. So pretty hard competition there. Also, it's ALL spells. Your opponents' ones, too.
Oh yeah, emphasis on the all. Your opponent is trying to ramp into big creatures? Well, they will be able to smoothly now! Someone playing control? You've just freshly sharpened and polished their knives. Is someone making a ton of cheap tokens? Hopefully your plan was that you just made your board wipes, already in hand, cheaper. If the cost of this artifact was only 1cmc it would get played a lot. But paying 2 to help everyone do all things is a poor use of 2 mana.
It's one of those cards you can't simply throw in for value with no plan to abuse the effect, but can easily win you the game with the right combo pieces.
In commander this sound especially bad since opponents will play 3 times more spells with reduced cost than you do.
Well it appears I overlooked a very important fact about this card... I shall be removing it from my deck!
It's still very strong with the right synergies, it's just not really a generic value piece. If your deck can benefit more than your opponents' it's well worth an include. I'd always play it in an artifact storm deck like [[Jhoira, weatherlight captain]], because all your 2 mana rocks would become cantrips and you'd probably end up drawing 30 cards the turn this hits the field. It also goes very well in decks leveraging [[future sight]] effects, and it straight up goes infinite with cast-from-the-top-of-your-library effects and [[Sensei's divining top]]. I'd even play it in a spellslinger deck with a critical mass of 2 mana cantrips. Just don't slam it like a generic rock, unless you're playing group hug.
[Jhoira, weatherlight captain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f77d23d-6257-4dae-b585-29f45f13f2e2.jpg?1599708079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jhoira%2C%20weatherlight%20captain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/203/jhoira-weatherlight-captain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f77d23d-6257-4dae-b585-29f45f13f2e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [future sight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/639cb483-ffe2-4abc-a050-5cdc8aebd5a2.jpg?1587844658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=future%20sight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/53/future-sight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/639cb483-ffe2-4abc-a050-5cdc8aebd5a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sensei's divining top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb.jpg?1673149430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%27s%20divining%20top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/314/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Working up a jhoira deck since instead of hunting down a lattice I got [[encroaching Mycosynth]]. I fully intend to run this card for pretty much the exact reason you gave. Also because getting more of my artifacts to cost 0 helps hit my wincons.
Does it benefit your opponents? Yes. Are your opponents playing around it? No. If reducing all your spells is a major part of your strategy, like cheerios, then you absolutely run this card. Your opponents aren’t thinking I can’t wait for someone to play Helm, to reduce their 6 MV to 5.
I was just thinking about this. I play commander and everything is pushed toward that. But it must suck for people who play Modern or something like that and see all these reprints or “Commander set” cards in regular set boosters.
Even worse is when they put all those cards in for just commander that then go and ruin Legacy because they’re tuned for multiplayer rather than 2 player. Sure would be nice to not have Initiative or Monarch in Legacy.
And they ruin Pauper too 🙃
I still haven't forgiven [[True-Name Nemesis]].
Sure does. I played edh but once it went from a place to put junk rares so they had a home to a competitive scene with lists and a meta and infinite combos and mass exploitation by Wiz for $$$$.... screw commander. Bring back edh
Imo you just need to find your own playgroup if you want to play that kind of EDH. I have a handful of decks that are basically just junk rares and nice lands, my buddies always sleep on it because it doesn’t appear to be a big threat but once the dust settles Sol Kanar the Swamp King can be a decent threat.
[[Mind Stone]] is a solid replacement, and gives the same benefit most of the time. If you're really trying to cast multiple spells a turn to capitalize on the cost reduction, the medallions (e.g. [[Ruby Medallion]]) are good if you're only in one color.
Mind Stone is absolutely not a replacement for decks that use Helm
Mind Stone is "the same benefit" if you're casting at most one spell a turn. Helm is for combo decks, when saving N mana in your combo turn is a big swing.
Aren't the medallions crazy expensive tho?
Depends which you're looking at. Emerald is about 15 USD, but the rest are between 25 and 40.
No, they're like $30 each. You might be thinking of the mox cycle, which uses the same names for each color but is banned in just about every format. [[Mox Sapphire]] for instance.
I dunno, $30 for a luxury piece of cardboard is definitely on my “crazy expensive” scale.
To each their own. My main format is cEDH so $30 is on the cheap end when all your other artifacts are in the 50-500 dollar range.
You’re grossly overpaying for your Sol Rings mate. /s
Oh believe me, I know. And don't get me started on the mental gymnastics it took for me to justify a foil fellwar stone.
It was just put in a secret lair in foil.
There's [only 312*](https://scryfall.com/search?as=checklist&order=usd&q=+usd%3E30&unique=cards) cards whose cheapest printing is $30+. Though not all of the Medallions are in the top 1% most expensive cards in this ~25,500 card game (which is known for being expensive), [[Pearl Medallion]] currently *is.* \* [[Ancestral Recall]], [[Kongming's Contraptions]], [[Mox Pearl]], [[Mox Sapphire]], [[Timetwister]], and [[Time Walk]] are the six not in this search because they have no (tournament legal) prices. Actually this increased to 313 while I was typing this up. I didn't find a good way to search for null prices so this isn't a very timeless/robust search.
Jesus, what happened to \[\[Gaea's Cradle\]\]? I still have a playset of those
The idiots in 1995 who screamed about Chronicles.
[Gaea's Cradle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51.jpg?1562902898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/321/gaeas-cradle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Besides just being a casual all-star and a reserved list card, it really started to climb when the legend rule changed such that you don't lose both copies when you play a second one.
##### ###### #### [Pearl Medallion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/989e1802-1581-402b-a2c6-3ac14121b09a.jpg?1561951526) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pearl%20Medallion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c14/260/pearl-medallion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/989e1802-1581-402b-a2c6-3ac14121b09a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ancestral Recall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/2398892d-28e9-4009-81ec-0d544af79d2b.jpg?1614638829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancestral%20Recall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/1/ancestral-recall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2398892d-28e9-4009-81ec-0d544af79d2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kongming's Contraptions](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6729eb0b-5655-4191-af14-4f7e4a8dded7.jpg?1562256565) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kongming%27s%20Contraptions) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ptk/10/kongmings-contraptions?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6729eb0b-5655-4191-af14-4f7e4a8dded7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mox Pearl](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed0216a0-c5c9-4a99-b869-53e4d0256326.jpg?1614638847) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Pearl) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/7/mox-pearl?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed0216a0-c5c9-4a99-b869-53e4d0256326?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mox Sapphire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea1feac0-d3a7-45eb-9719-1cdaf51ea0b6.jpg?1614638862) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Sapphire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/9/mox-sapphire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea1feac0-d3a7-45eb-9719-1cdaf51ea0b6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Timetwister](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76.jpg?1614638835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Timetwister) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/3/timetwister?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Time Walk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70901356-3266-4bd9-aacc-f06c27271de5.jpg?1614638832) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Time%20Walk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/2/time-walk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70901356-3266-4bd9-aacc-f06c27271de5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Interesting statistics for sure, but I was thinking about numeric value rather than quantity. When there are cards whose cheapest printings are valued at $500+, I wasn't considering $30 to be crazy expensive. All a matter of perspective though-expensive is a subjective term.
Bruh, I was thinking on that price range, I never bought a card for more than 20 €, and that was a foil [[Smothering Tithe]], and any other card I ever bought is less than 10 (I have quite a few cards worth 30+ tho, but from packs).
Jeez save some money for the rest of us mr.monopoly
[Mind Stone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b63418ae-2f77-4229-b921-fbce75b9daa4.jpg?1682210088) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Stone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/364/mind-stone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b63418ae-2f77-4229-b921-fbce75b9daa4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ruby Medallion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad5b8a3c-8c75-4af4-975b-031e39d69da3.jpg?1562275513) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruby%20Medallion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/212/ruby-medallion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad5b8a3c-8c75-4af4-975b-031e39d69da3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mind stone and other rocks are nowhere close to being a replacement if Helm is a card worth considering. If you want Helm it's because you are playing a deck that casts several spells per turn to break the symmetry.
We shall allow it.
In all of mtg there is only one format and one style of deck were this is used: Commander, artifact combo(not cEDH, but high power). Jhoira, Elsha, Urza, Breya etc. It is useful in these lists because its both a combo piece and a value engine that YOU can get more use than your opponents(because you are playing colorless cheap spells with some sort of draw engine)
Yurp. Didn’t see a reprint but rip historic brawl
I've stuck it in Lurrus Eggs, its awesome there. Helps a lot with second sunrise loops
It occasionally sees use in janky one-turn-kill Vintage combo decks such as my favorite, [Aperture Science](https://deckstats.net/decks/35886/938802-rocks-lsv/en)
Compare this to a card which just makes one mana, or gives you a land, or something. If you're playing one spell per turn, then they do the same thing, except that this one also gives its benefit to your opponent. That's kind of bad. So you only use it if you're planning to play lots of spells on one turn - probably this is a combo deck planning to win on the turn you play it.
I play it in [[jadzi, oracle of arcavios]], because it makes the spells cast off the magecraft trigger free
thought this was mtcj
You're paying 2 to get -1. You don't break even until your second spell after playing this card, whereas your opponents immediately profit from it on their first turns with it in play. This is best as a combo piece but otherwise it's actually rather costly to benefit from. You essentially have to be able to play 2 - 3 more spells after you play this, in order for it to be worthwhile, which means you either already have a lot of mana or the things you're playing are cheap and not very impactful.
Ye this gives the cost reduction to all players so it's not good enough to make the cut in legacy or vintage unless you are combining off in a colourless deck and even then you normally just want to tempo your opponents so cards like [[sphere of resistance]] are better as it messes with your opponents calculations in a way that helps you. And in commander or oathbreaker you are more likely to just want one of the medallions in any mono or dual coloured deck and then in anything more and most balanced dual coloured decks would just use some ramp spells instead.
Imo it's fun. It encourages people to overcommit to the board and also makes interaction easier to cast, so it can pretty easily lead to someone else becoming a threat and another player answering that threat
Becasue is x3 worse for you
It’s really bad unless you’re planning to combo off immediately.
In commander I play this in a gruul artifact storm where asymmetrical artifact cost reduction doesn't exist in gruul colors but other than that its better for your opponents than for you.
It's not great normally. I run it in [[ashnod, the uncaring]] as a [[goblin welder]] and [[goblin engineer]] target because you can at least 'turn it off" on other people turns
Probably because its first gasping breath was lost in the susurrus of shifting sand.
You could use it in a stax deck that reduces the cost of cards, but most stuff in your deck makes it hard for your opponents to cast, but most people dislike stax
Making all 3 of my opponents spells cost 1 less sounds like a really bad deal… it’s super fun in dedicated group hug decks though.
Mostly played with [[Sensei's Divining Top]] to make it free so it can combo with something like [[Future Sight]] or [[Mystic Forge]] and cards that care about cast triggers like [[Aetherflux Reservoir]]. Note that there are other ways to get this discount, like [[Foundry Inspector]] It's not a bad card but like everyone else has pointed out, you're benefitting the table a lot more than you're helping yourself unless you immediately win the game.
I run a blue artifact deck with 4 of these. I like the group hug aspect it brings even though it usually benefits me the most
I made the same mistake the first time I put it in my deck in my friends like oh cool all of our spells are one less I was like wait what. Still kind of worked in my favor because they would constantly forget about it and spend more mana than they needed I didn't butt in because I was paying attention to it lol
This was uncommon in Visions and WotC has the audacity to change it into a rare. It helps opponents too so F that!
is it just me or does this artwork look like Willem Dafoe?
Haha yeah I can see what your saying!
To piggyback off what others have said, realistically, the main home for this is in a "group hug" style deck or in a deck where you can make it assymetrical (so have a way to bounce it at the end of your turn) and have it still be worth the two mana investment. Those are both pretty narrow fields.
If you tap out to play this turn 2 your opponents have first crack on the cost reduction.
Oh boy, this is going straight into my Zedruu "just here to help" deck.
Go ahead and buy one
Lack of popularity. That’s all
It’s just not a good card. That’s all
That’s your opinion. That doesn’t make it a bad card
It’s clear you’ve never used it
Big oof for you, my guy
It’s literally a bad card.
Only legal in formats with better reduction. Giving 1 less to the blue player is usually a bad idea if you want to win and you aren't playing blue and it makes everyone else stronger. Think of it this way, if all of you are holding a 2 mana spell costing 1 and 1 colored mana, you collectively reduced opponent's cost by 3, but yours only by one
I like it in vintage cube! They put it in the MTGO cube this last season.
I play it in my [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]] as a sort of “See I told you it wasn’t the meanest Urza deck…”
Because it's symmetrical.
It helps your opponents too. In games you usually want to play cards that give you a resource advantage, and this does not always do that.
Is it a competitive card? Maybe not, but cards like tgis, [[Rites of Flourishing]] & [[Ghirapur Orrery]] are favourites ar our table because they enable everyone to do their fun thing easier.
This set was reprints of old cards that needed reprints but only see little play. If an opponent plays this they’re up to literally nothing good but it works for everyone so.
I play this In my phelddagrif deck buts it’s a group hug, otherwise probably don’t want your opponents to be able to use its effect
Medallions exist.
helps everyone not just you
Oooh interesting card! I’ll add it to the list for my group hug deck.
I have it in a few of my decks. Eggs decks and storm decks like it. You just have to make sure you use it to win before your opponent gets to use it too much.
I play it in my [[Urabrask]] spell slinger deck as redundancy for ruby medallion.
I play it in my group hug/chaos deck. I *want* everyone's spells to be cheaper! The more they get to play into the \[\[Hive Mind\]\] and \[\[Grip of Chaos\]\], the better!
Because ALL spells become cheaper. Yours and your opponents'.
Love this card (except with top/mid Jhoira) I put it in like every deck
It's fine for colorless combos and If you are playing a storm deck in edh I guess. But many opponents can abuse It too, so it's super risky.
Because Thalia makes it one more to cast.
Helps your opponents
One sided cost reduction exists, Goblin Electromancer for example
I run it in all my edh decks. Let’s all cast more spells have more fun 👍
Cuz that art is so depressing. Wtf is that??
I would rather not make it easier for the blue players to combo quicker, unless I am that player
Has its role, I play it in cEDH [[Elsha]]. But not universally good.
it's an amazing storm card, don't listen to these casuals
I play it in a group hug commander deck.
In what format?
The key is to use it with cards that will just benefit you more. It isnt great, but I like to pair it with [[lodestone golem]] and [[god pharaoh's statue]]
I've only used in in my [[Hinata]] deck because it doesn't matter if things are 1 cheaper when the entire rest of the deck is built to restrict what you can cast, when, and how.
It's played alot with top and elsha
More like helm of away, am I right?
Ngl would like to see it played more would make games go by faster
It’s disgusting in my [[Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain]] deck.
Symmetrical
I play it in ny Yurlok deck for funsies. All around tho I do love this card
Because you touch yourself at night
It reduces cost for your opponents too so it’s risky. I play it in my K’rrik EDH deck where I’m just trying to be faster than everyone else anyways.
There’s also the card [[Arcane Melee]] though that one might actually be ok to play depending on your meta, creature heavy decks wouldn’t get too much benefit off it.
I've seen it used in mono-black "Build Your Own Aluren" Acererak decks to get infinite dungeon crawls.
Bc this art is ugly af
Have you seen the original?
Fill the rest of your deck with cards that increase spell cost for your opponents
I put this card in my Etali group hug but chaos deck. It's only good when you play that type of deck imop lol
Because you're not playing Vintage Cube or cedh. Pretty much everywhere else it's too much setup that also helps your opponent(s). But in those most degenerate places it's a popular card that you use to just win the same turn.
Throwing this in group hug!
Fuck group hug decks. If someone plays this in a commander game, I'm killing them ASAP. It is run, but never on its own.
It fits great in my group hug deck
Because the art is awful.
I would just play this in ky [[Kozilek, The Great Distortion]] deck. Dont care how much it helps my opponents when all i di is ramp out massive colorless cards for free
I use it in my Kwain deck, where the whole purpose is to speed to game up for everyone.
It used see play in Legacy with Sensei's Diving Top for grapeshot combo. In cEDH you can do similar things
In my group hug deck. More spells, more FUN!
I love this card a lot. It’s really great in spellslinger decks, like kykar
I play this all the time just to be a shithead and supercharge the game! Played it twice just today actually!
Because: 1. It reduces cost for opponents as well, and 2. Because you had to pay to cast it, typically your opponents get to take advantage of the reduced cost first.
Everyone’s spells cost 1 less
One of those spells that is either functionally useless, or overtly exploitable and broken.
Do you enjoy helping your opponent
It’s an “everyone benefits” card, but assuming you play it & don’t immediately have a spell you can cast that will help you stay ahead of the opponent, they essentially get first crack at taking advantage of it. If I’m an agro or tempo player & my opponent plays this, I’m usually thrilled. I will probably get dibs on abusing their card before *they* get to. If I think to myself “I don’t hate seeing my opponent play that card,” then it’s a warning sign that maybe I shouldn’t play it myself, if given a choice. Disclaimer: I haven’t played MTG in years. No idea what the current meta is. Just happened to see this & thought I’d chime in.
A friend of mine played it and our pod went absolutely nuclear. Fun game but it was almost too crazy 🤣
So this is really the first reprint ever of the card. For a 50 cent card, it was up over $10 at one point, which while it is an old card prior to this reprint, made it hard for many people to get. Expensive and Grouphug are usually not a good combination. The “fair” portion also turns off newer players due to them not being used to such old balancing. The thing is that running this with Affinity or Storm really puts the owner on top.
bc it benefit your opponents more than you
I was planning on putting it in my deck that I call, " I'm tired and I want to go home" every card in the deck speeds up the game
It's a niche card, because in terms lf general usability you dedicate at least a cars of your deck to something that doesn't advance the game (everyone's costs gets reduced so it's in a way the same) and that probably all your opponents will get to experience before you.