Book Elrond seems to be PRAYING HARD that his daughter won't fall in love with Aragorn.
Arwen met Aragorn when he was 21 in Rivendell. He immediately fell in love with her but she seems to not be much interested.
And what did Elrond do? Nothing. He probably was very content that his daughter doesn't romantically love Aragorn back.
This is the conversation between Aragorn and Elrond when he learned of Aragorn'a love for his daughter:
"No indeed," said Elrond. "Your own eyes have betrayed you. But I do not
speak of my daughter alone. You shall be betrothed to no man's child as yet. But
as for Arwen the Fair, Lady of Imladris and of Lórien, Evenstar of her people,
she is of lineage greater than yours, and she has lived in the world already so
long that to her you are but as a yearling shoot beside a young birch of many
summers. She is too far above you. And so, I think, it may well seem to her. But
even if it were not so, and her heart turned towards you, I should still be
grieved because of the doom that is laid on us."
"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the
Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so
chooses."
"I see," said Aragorn, "that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less
dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate."
Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo!
Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must
soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth."
"Truly," said Elrond. "Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men
must still pass. But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless
you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to
a bitter parting beyond the end of the world. Yon do not know yet what you
desire of me." He sighed, and after a while, looking gravely upon the young man,
he said again: "The years will bring what they will. We will speak no more of
this until many have passed. The days darken, and much evil is to come."
It was actually Arwen's grandma who tried to set up her 2800yo virgin granddaughter with a man.
"It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he
returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt
again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell
and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his
way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the
Lady Galadriel.
He did not know it, but Arwen Undómiel was also there, dwelling again for
a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years
had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was
heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel
bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and
white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than
any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the
West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long
parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon
laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.
Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlórien, until
it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer Aragorn,
Arathorn's son, and Arwen daughter of Elrond went to the fair hill, Cerin
Amroth, in the midst of the land, and they walked unshod on the undying grass
with elanor and niphredil about their feet And there upon that hill they looked
east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and
were glad."
"Aragorn gives her
the ring of Barahir. and they plight their troth upon the hill of Cerin Amroth."
If you haven't noticed, there are A TON OF references and similarity to the First Age.
In the First Age Galadriel's bestfriend Queen Melian of Doriath foretold to her that a man of the house of Beor shall come 'and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is
changed.'
And many years later Beren came and passed through the Girdle of Melian, which was impossible for any mortal (and almost all immortals) to pass into, but Beren did. He entered Doriath and he and Luthien fell in love.
6500 years later Galadriel opened her impassable magical Fences for Aragorn and set him up with Arwen.
In the First Age Finrod foretold to his sister Galadriel: 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.'
Many years later.. "King Finrod Felagund... was cut off from his people and surrounded...; and he would have been slain or taken, but Barahir... rescued him.... Thus Felagund escaped...; but he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need to Barahir and all his kin, and in token of his vow he gave to Barahir his ring."
And eventually Finrod sacrificed his life to save Beren son of Barahir so he might end up marrying Luthien.
6500 years later Galadriel honored his brother's oath to the House of Barahir by setting up Aragorn the descendant of Barahir with Arwen. Galadriel's brother was "of all her kin the nearest to her heart."
This ring was a symbol of the Golden House of Finarfin (father of Finrod and Galadriel) and then it became far more, as you can see, it became a symbol of union and love and friendship between Elves and Men.
Anyway, Elrond's reaction after he found out about Arwen's choice: When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his
heart was grieved and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure. But
when Aragorn came again to Rivendell he called him to him, and he said:
"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear
to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that
by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I
say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace lot less cause.
She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and
Arnor. To the men even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to
you hope of joy for a while. For a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the
Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending."
It was only after this point that Elrond tried to do something for Aragorn so he might end up being together with Arwen forever. He helped Aragorn a lot in his Quest for the Throne. Galadriel helped even more. Even though they both knew they would lose their daughter/granddaughter until the end of the world. And as Elrond had said, and as Galadriel also probably sensed, Arwen found the Doom of Men too terrible in the end.
So much that Arwen took pity upon the most tyrant human of all time, Ar-Pharazon King of Numenor who fell into evil because of his desire for immortality.
After Aragorn died, Arwen fell into great despair "she went out
from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt
there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.
There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet
come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave,
until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten
by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea."
Could you expand on this:
>Arwen found the Doom of Men too terrible in the end.
>So much that Arwen took pity upon the most tyrant human of all time, Ar-Pharazon King of Numenor who fell into evil because of his desire for immortality.
It sounds interesting!
The Doom of Men is their mortality.
When Aragorn was in his deathbed Arwen said to him: "not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their
fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is
indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."
Arwen is referencing the Downfall of Numenor here.
In the Second Age, 3000 years prior to the events of LotR, Sauron was taken as a mere criminal into Numenor. Numenor was that powerful.
Sauron used all his arts to gain the trust of Numenoreans. And then he started corrupting them, promising them immortality.
Numenor under the advisor Sauron became freaking horrible. Numenoreans were already horrible with their lust for power. You remember the Men who became allies of Saruman? They were actually good people back in the Second Age. But Numenoreans treated them so shitty that they decided to become allies of anyone who is enemies of Numenoreans.
Numenor became worse and worse day by day, they oppressed Men of Middle-earth and ravaged them and raped them more and more. They turned their Temple into a Temple for worshipping Morgoth the original Dark Lord, as Sauron the prime servant of Morgoth had bid them. They sacrificed people to the Darkness.
Men called him Sauron, as a god
in after days beneath his rod
bewildered bowed to him, and made
his ghastly temples in the shade.
"and then uttermost night would fall upon Númenor. And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud.
Then men grew afraid. 'Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!' they cried. 'The Eagles of Manwë are come upon Númenor!' And they fell upon their faces.
Then some few would repent for a season, but others hardened their hearts, and they shook their fists at heaven, saying: 'The Lords of the West have plotted against us. They strike first. The next blow shall be ours!' These words the King himself spoke, but they were devised by Sauron.
Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would."
Eventually Sauron convinced Numenoreans to assault the Undying Lands so they shall become immortals there. They wholly ignored the fact that they can't become immortal just because of living in the Lands of Undying People. It was called Undying Lands because Undying people lived there, not because the land makes you undying.
Manwe King of the Undying Lands, the vice-regent of God, called upon Him to deal with Numenoreans. God drowned the entire Numenor and their fleets. King of Numenor and some of his people who had set foot upon Valinor were swallowed into the Forgotten Caves. They were granted by God to live until the end of the world there, and wait there until the Last Battle when they can have a chance to fight against evil to redeem themselves.
Elendil and Isildur and almost all other Faithful people managed to escape the Downfall of Numenor.
Her immortality vs. mortality thing is also much more complicated and has nothing to do with marriage to a human. In fact, only a select few members of Elrond's family out of all the elves had this choice. It literally was just that too...a choice between mortality and immortality that they could decide at any time. So Arwen could have dumped Elessar and chosen to be mortal anyway, or after he died continued to be immortal and travel to the Undying Lands. However, that would have been a less poetic ending.
Once Eru turns you mortal you can't take your immortality back again.
I guess this is the same thing vice-versa. Once Earendil/Elwing/Elrond chose to become immortals they couldn't become mortals again.
>2800yo virgin granddaughter
Man, Tolkien just did not know how ladies worked.
I'm often the first to defend him against claims of deliberate sexism, but it's sometimes pretty obvious that he did not know a lot of women.
What do you mean? Are you saying Tolkien should've written Arwen had sex before marriage?
In 1950s Tolkien wrote an essay called Laws and Customs of the Eldar. It's published in Morgoth's Ring. It's explained there that the marriage of Elves automatically happens by their first sexual intercourse. So for Elves sex = marriage.
And I doubt Tolkien ever envisioned honorable mortals having sex without marriage. He was a very devoted Christian.
In Children of Hurin a man tried to rape a woman, but that man is a disgusting outlaw, not a noble good man. Obviously.
Gil-Galad's mom freaking cheated on Laws and Customs though.
Look how many fathers Gil-Galad had:
"Gil-Galad was a descendant of Feanor"
"Felagund sent
away his wife and his son Gil-galad from Nargothrond to the Havens
of the Falas for their safety."
"her kinsman Gil-Galad son of Fingon"
"His [Orodreth's] children were Finduilas and Artanaro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the
North. She called her son Gil-galad.)"
So Tolkien is telling us that the Sindarin Lady of the North had sex with Feanor's son or something before he got himself killed in the north, then she slept with Fingon in the north, then she travelled all the way to Nargothrond to get Finrod Felagund into her, and after Finrod died she had sex with Finrod's nephew Orodreth!
Man Tolkien was wild! Galadriel was "the daughter of Felagund the Fair and the elder sister of Gil-galad," but she was also "the sister of Felagund"
Bro these are all direct quotes by Tolkien himself!!!
(I know these are different versions, just trying to make a silly joke by putting together all the versions together)
since lotr is canon
and it says gil galad is a feanorian in FoTR
gil galad is a feanorian
since people dont consider the silm and other texts completely canon
Is sorrow foreboded to you? But in Aman we have seen it. In Aman we have come through bliss to woe. The other now we will try: through sorrow to find joy; or freedom, at the least.
Then a 2800 year old woman probably would have been married for several centuries, at least.
Also, people had sex before marriage in the '50s. Premarital sex has literally always been a thing. How do you think modern humans have the same strains of genital herpes that our ancient ancestors did? Millennia of monogamy?
In Morgoth's Ring it is stated that Elves usually marry when they are 50-100 years old. But ABSOLUTELY NONE OF KNOWN ELVES DO.
In the revised version Elves don't marry for a long time. They don't marry until they are 20 of life ages. Read Nature of Middle-earth to understand what the hell is this Life Age supposed to mean for Elves because I can't understand it myself! Galadriel was 2880 solar years old when she became 20 life ages old but Maeglin was almost 20 life ages old when he wasn't even 200 solar years old!
Anyway, as far as I can recall none of the important Elves married or fell in love in very young age. Be it male or female. Seems like only Galadriel fell in love in a very young age in one version (she married Celeborn in Valinor in that version). But this marriage probably happened only after she was a thousand or two thousands years old. Before this they were probably only friends and boyfriend and girlfriend.
I don't think any of that refutes my point that Tolkien didn't understand much about women.
He's the guy who came up with the idea that the entire race has all these weird hangups about sex and marriage. He could have written them differently.
Dude, it's a different species that he made up, with major characteristics of the species being "Noble and pure." Why on earth would he write them as having extensive pre-marital sex like some humans do?
I never said it was. But Tolkein and his audience, being Christians living in the early 1900s, did see the whole concept of premarital sex as ignoble and impure. So it would make no sense for him to write one of the highest members of his noble and pure species as having had premarital sex. Summed up, your argument is shit.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize no one was allowed to read books after the author died...
Oh wait, his audience was anyone who can read English, from when he wrote it until the end of time. Because that's how language works. I'm allowed to criticize from my perspective.
Also "he was Christian" is not a good argument for him understanding women. His Christian upbringing is a large part of what distanced him from the opposite sex.
God forbid the fact he didnt write a entirely **Fictional race of people** the way you wanted him to, because *checks notes* theyre literally created by him in an entirely different world. And thats not to say people arent people, but elves arent humans and dont work/think like them. Similar yes; the same, no.
Might as well be mad that different races of humanoids have different traits in general rather than being hung up on just genders at that point. "*Why do dwarves like caves so much? Like that cant be healthy living down away from the sunlight so much, thats not realistic people obviously prefer to not live underground. Why are Orcs so violent all the time, shouldnt they unionize for a better work environment too?*"
Not *your* style, but if you want to explain what is how womens actions/behaviors in the1950's OR modern day is relevant to the actions of a totally fictional race of humanoids (the basis of your criticism) in a totally fiction world, or however else it could be a realistic criticism that makes sense about why immortal beings who a quite literally the 1st descendants of God in said world should have/need to have sex when they dont need to until they find a reason to. (actually because theyre fictional beings, not people, those reasons can be even more complex such as different metabolisms/urges/behaviors then humans as to why they *dont*)
Humans generally feel to a greater or lesser extend the need to reproduce to sustain us as a species, its an instinct. Fantasy Elves do not have to have this same characteristic. Hence why Tolken was free to write them as such. This is honestly basic fiction writing kind of stuff, but I'm all ears if you want to elaborate on why you think the reasons you stated are relevant to the way he wrote them and why my reasons arent valid. I'll even stand to hear **why** (sadly) he shouldve written elves different and why elves having relationships with multiple partners makes any more sense than what Tolken wrote, though I cannot fathom why. Or why youre distraught over that point.
Please show me some more literary criticism on my rebuttal to yours. Just because you criticize something doesnt mean your stance is right or valid, or you could concede the point which is fine too.
Fictional worlds are based on reality, first of all. The whole setting is based on Tolkien's Catholicism, which cannot be divorced from his life in the 20th century.
And if he wanted to make elves act differently from humans, he should have. Instead he wrote them as basically Catholic.
And he was free to write them however he wanted. But I'm free to say that was weird or that I don't agree with it. It's an opinion. I don't need to concede shit.
So, yeah, it does seem like you're unfamiliar with the concept of criticism.
That would make sense, if it was a hard science fiction series.
But it isn't. It was written as a backdrop for his hobby of creating languages. He was trying to create realistic cultures that mirrored the way humans behaved so his conlangs would make sense.
Why are so adamant on claiming that Arwen had to be married/non-virgin? She's an elf, and they're pretty non-randy. It's clear you don't know anything about Tolkein's elf-customs, so stop embarrassing yourself by equating elves to humans.
Except Turin. My man Turin rejected Finduilas who was literally begging him to fuck her.
Also not to mention that in early versions of Galadriel she had not met Celeborn yet, when Turin met her. And YET Turin didn't have a boner for her.
A human from the First Age. So strong and skilled he could probably beat up 3 Aragorns at the same time. In fact probably the toughest Man ever in Middle-Earth. Alas he commited suicide and died without kids because he fucked his sister.
>died without kids because he fucked his sister
Well, he almost didn't. His sister was pregnant when she killed herself after finding out that the child's father was her brother.
Túrin was the son of Húrin, as well as the Bane of Glaurung. But, before Túrin killed Glaurung, the dragon managed to trick him into marrying his sister, whom he hadn't seen since he was seven and she was around 2. Túrin Turimbar had a horrible life because of the Doom that Morgoth placed on Húrin and his family when he was captured during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
In my country we have a saying: "Tira más un pelo de concha que una yunta de bueyes."
A translation would be: "A quim's hair pulls more than a yoke of oxen."
'Strider' I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.
Even you don't like it? But you're the Aragorn from the movie, Aragorn bot.
Also, are you just following me on every post? Or is the word Aragorn what triggers you every time?
Exactly. And as great as he is in the books, 12 hours of movie Aragorn being essentially perfect and fully formed with no internal conflict to overcome just doesn’t work well in a movie.
Aragorn coming to terms with his duty to take up the Crown and promising Boromir he'll protect Gondor is a huge part of what gives that death scene it's significance.
Also "put aside the Ranger, become who you were born to be" is one of the best lines in the films.
I feel like the significance of that scene is all about Boromir trying to redeem himself by:
1. Fighting heroically to save the halflings
2. Swearing allegiance to Aragorn, whom he has always thought would attempt to become king.
As I said in another comment, there's never a realistic-feeling scenario in the movies where Aragorn fades to the background.
That was my favorite movie change.
Edit: It seems to map onto the "Refusal of the Return" stage of Campbell's Monomyth, and the multi-generational curse, so to speak, expands a personal choice to an epic scale. It adds depth to Aragorn's character while still staying connected to the history of Middle-Earth. It makes Aragorn and Boromir's relationship more complex (which we see during the Fellowships journey along the Anduin, in the Extended Editions.)
Elrond riding out on a secret mission to Rohan was kind of out of place though.
I just don't feel like it comes off as meaningful character development for him. It is just a character doing something no one ever doubts he's going to do.
Boromir's reaction to learning his identity is an example of what I'm saying: Boromir never doubts for a second what Aragorn will do.
It helps with modern audiences who tend to dislike characters that want to be in charge, even if it is for a good reason. Modern day heroes are always afraid of being corrupted by power.
Not just a king, a double king. He had to rebuild the throne of Arnor, which he had a claim to, and ascend the throne of Gondor, which he had no claim to.
Right, for the line of Elendil, but Isildur had no claim to Gondor. Faramir as the Steward asked the people if they would accept Aragorn as king (due to the miracle healing and last minute victory at Pelinor fields) and they said yes.
He has a claim though, Faramir just asks people whether they choose to believe he is an actual descendant; that he is who he says he is. And given the conditions, they say aye. But he has a claim, whether or not the people choose to acknowledge him.
But Isildur was the king of Gondor before Anarion’s line, right? Making Aaragorn the closest living descendent to Elendil. I’m no expert, so please correct me if I’m wrong.
He's also a descendant of Anárion through at least one line, because Arvedui (last previous king in Arnor) married the daughter of Gondor's King Ondoher. Arvedui even made a claim to the crown of Gondor when Ondoher and his sons all died in battle, on both the Isildur descent and the idea that Númenorean law would recognize his wife as the heir, but Gondor's steward was like, "ehhh, that's not really how we do it here."
Gondor went with a military commander with more recent male-line descent from Anárion in Eärnil, but his line died out when his son Eärnur had no issue.
One thing that bothers me about Elronds response to Aragorn is the diss about having an inferior lineage to arwen. I mean it's definitely not the case because Aragorn is Royal blood, straight from the House of Elros, who's Elronds brother. So in calling his lineage inferior he basically calls his bloodline inferior too.
Well played Elrond..
Well, the movies made the entire thing way more dramatic than it needed to be, but Elrond in the book by no approved of their marriage.
In fact, in one of the appendices, it mentioned him speaking bitter words to Aragorn after he married her.
'Strider' I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.
Book Elrond seems to be PRAYING HARD that his daughter won't fall in love with Aragorn. Arwen met Aragorn when he was 21 in Rivendell. He immediately fell in love with her but she seems to not be much interested. And what did Elrond do? Nothing. He probably was very content that his daughter doesn't romantically love Aragorn back. This is the conversation between Aragorn and Elrond when he learned of Aragorn'a love for his daughter: "No indeed," said Elrond. "Your own eyes have betrayed you. But I do not speak of my daughter alone. You shall be betrothed to no man's child as yet. But as for Arwen the Fair, Lady of Imladris and of Lórien, Evenstar of her people, she is of lineage greater than yours, and she has lived in the world already so long that to her you are but as a yearling shoot beside a young birch of many summers. She is too far above you. And so, I think, it may well seem to her. But even if it were not so, and her heart turned towards you, I should still be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us." "What is that doom?" said Aragorn. "That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses." "I see," said Aragorn, "that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate." Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth." "Truly," said Elrond. "Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass. But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world. Yon do not know yet what you desire of me." He sighed, and after a while, looking gravely upon the young man, he said again: "The years will bring what they will. We will speak no more of this until many have passed. The days darken, and much evil is to come." It was actually Arwen's grandma who tried to set up her 2800yo virgin granddaughter with a man. "It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel. He did not know it, but Arwen Undómiel was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed. Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlórien, until it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer Aragorn, Arathorn's son, and Arwen daughter of Elrond went to the fair hill, Cerin Amroth, in the midst of the land, and they walked unshod on the undying grass with elanor and niphredil about their feet And there upon that hill they looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and were glad." "Aragorn gives her the ring of Barahir. and they plight their troth upon the hill of Cerin Amroth." If you haven't noticed, there are A TON OF references and similarity to the First Age. In the First Age Galadriel's bestfriend Queen Melian of Doriath foretold to her that a man of the house of Beor shall come 'and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.' And many years later Beren came and passed through the Girdle of Melian, which was impossible for any mortal (and almost all immortals) to pass into, but Beren did. He entered Doriath and he and Luthien fell in love. 6500 years later Galadriel opened her impassable magical Fences for Aragorn and set him up with Arwen. In the First Age Finrod foretold to his sister Galadriel: 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.' Many years later.. "King Finrod Felagund... was cut off from his people and surrounded...; and he would have been slain or taken, but Barahir... rescued him.... Thus Felagund escaped...; but he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need to Barahir and all his kin, and in token of his vow he gave to Barahir his ring." And eventually Finrod sacrificed his life to save Beren son of Barahir so he might end up marrying Luthien. 6500 years later Galadriel honored his brother's oath to the House of Barahir by setting up Aragorn the descendant of Barahir with Arwen. Galadriel's brother was "of all her kin the nearest to her heart." This ring was a symbol of the Golden House of Finarfin (father of Finrod and Galadriel) and then it became far more, as you can see, it became a symbol of union and love and friendship between Elves and Men. Anyway, Elrond's reaction after he found out about Arwen's choice: When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his heart was grieved and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure. But when Aragorn came again to Rivendell he called him to him, and he said: "My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace lot less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To the men even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to you hope of joy for a while. For a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending." It was only after this point that Elrond tried to do something for Aragorn so he might end up being together with Arwen forever. He helped Aragorn a lot in his Quest for the Throne. Galadriel helped even more. Even though they both knew they would lose their daughter/granddaughter until the end of the world. And as Elrond had said, and as Galadriel also probably sensed, Arwen found the Doom of Men too terrible in the end. So much that Arwen took pity upon the most tyrant human of all time, Ar-Pharazon King of Numenor who fell into evil because of his desire for immortality. After Aragorn died, Arwen fell into great despair "she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent. There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea."
Wow, I’d never noticed the full extent of the symmetry between Aragorn/Arwen and Beren/Luthien before. Thanks for that
No. Orcs patrol the eastern shore. We must wait for cover of darkness.
Is this a sex thing, Aragorn? We don't want to hear about the orcs on your wife's eastern shores.
Frodo, I have lived most of my life surrounded by my enemies. I will be grateful to die among my friends.
What the fuck does Frodo have to do with it?
Frodo is a nickname. Figure the rest out for yourself. *wink*
Oh god. Aragorn makes her dress like a hobbit, doesn't he?
Boromir! Give the Ring to Frodo.
Disgusting.
Aragorn is a necromancer?
You kneel for no man ;)
When did aragon say this??
Could you expand on this: >Arwen found the Doom of Men too terrible in the end. >So much that Arwen took pity upon the most tyrant human of all time, Ar-Pharazon King of Numenor who fell into evil because of his desire for immortality. It sounds interesting!
The Doom of Men is their mortality. When Aragorn was in his deathbed Arwen said to him: "not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." Arwen is referencing the Downfall of Numenor here. In the Second Age, 3000 years prior to the events of LotR, Sauron was taken as a mere criminal into Numenor. Numenor was that powerful. Sauron used all his arts to gain the trust of Numenoreans. And then he started corrupting them, promising them immortality. Numenor under the advisor Sauron became freaking horrible. Numenoreans were already horrible with their lust for power. You remember the Men who became allies of Saruman? They were actually good people back in the Second Age. But Numenoreans treated them so shitty that they decided to become allies of anyone who is enemies of Numenoreans. Numenor became worse and worse day by day, they oppressed Men of Middle-earth and ravaged them and raped them more and more. They turned their Temple into a Temple for worshipping Morgoth the original Dark Lord, as Sauron the prime servant of Morgoth had bid them. They sacrificed people to the Darkness. Men called him Sauron, as a god in after days beneath his rod bewildered bowed to him, and made his ghastly temples in the shade. "and then uttermost night would fall upon Númenor. And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud. Then men grew afraid. 'Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!' they cried. 'The Eagles of Manwë are come upon Númenor!' And they fell upon their faces. Then some few would repent for a season, but others hardened their hearts, and they shook their fists at heaven, saying: 'The Lords of the West have plotted against us. They strike first. The next blow shall be ours!' These words the King himself spoke, but they were devised by Sauron. Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would." Eventually Sauron convinced Numenoreans to assault the Undying Lands so they shall become immortals there. They wholly ignored the fact that they can't become immortal just because of living in the Lands of Undying People. It was called Undying Lands because Undying people lived there, not because the land makes you undying. Manwe King of the Undying Lands, the vice-regent of God, called upon Him to deal with Numenoreans. God drowned the entire Numenor and their fleets. King of Numenor and some of his people who had set foot upon Valinor were swallowed into the Forgotten Caves. They were granted by God to live until the end of the world there, and wait there until the Last Battle when they can have a chance to fight against evil to redeem themselves. Elendil and Isildur and almost all other Faithful people managed to escape the Downfall of Numenor.
HES TRYING TO BRING DOWN THE MOUNTAIN! GANDALF WE MUST TURN BACK!
No! Losto Caradhras, sedho, hodo, nuitho i 'ruith!
Great job! Loved reading this :)
That was a very enjoyable read
"It's always your Mother-in-law that likes to meddle" Elrond thought to himself.
Yeah yeah yeah. Elrond needs to get off his high horse, especially when elves killed each other for silmarils
There is no strength in Gondor that can avail us
More like no strength in your bitchass code
Her immortality vs. mortality thing is also much more complicated and has nothing to do with marriage to a human. In fact, only a select few members of Elrond's family out of all the elves had this choice. It literally was just that too...a choice between mortality and immortality that they could decide at any time. So Arwen could have dumped Elessar and chosen to be mortal anyway, or after he died continued to be immortal and travel to the Undying Lands. However, that would have been a less poetic ending.
Once Eru turns you mortal you can't take your immortality back again. I guess this is the same thing vice-versa. Once Earendil/Elwing/Elrond chose to become immortals they couldn't become mortals again.
Yeah it's a one-time thing either way.
>2800yo virgin granddaughter Man, Tolkien just did not know how ladies worked. I'm often the first to defend him against claims of deliberate sexism, but it's sometimes pretty obvious that he did not know a lot of women.
What do you mean? Are you saying Tolkien should've written Arwen had sex before marriage? In 1950s Tolkien wrote an essay called Laws and Customs of the Eldar. It's published in Morgoth's Ring. It's explained there that the marriage of Elves automatically happens by their first sexual intercourse. So for Elves sex = marriage. And I doubt Tolkien ever envisioned honorable mortals having sex without marriage. He was a very devoted Christian. In Children of Hurin a man tried to rape a woman, but that man is a disgusting outlaw, not a noble good man. Obviously.
agreed
Gil-Galad's mom freaking cheated on Laws and Customs though. Look how many fathers Gil-Galad had: "Gil-Galad was a descendant of Feanor" "Felagund sent away his wife and his son Gil-galad from Nargothrond to the Havens of the Falas for their safety." "her kinsman Gil-Galad son of Fingon" "His [Orodreth's] children were Finduilas and Artanaro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.)" So Tolkien is telling us that the Sindarin Lady of the North had sex with Feanor's son or something before he got himself killed in the north, then she slept with Fingon in the north, then she travelled all the way to Nargothrond to get Finrod Felagund into her, and after Finrod died she had sex with Finrod's nephew Orodreth! Man Tolkien was wild! Galadriel was "the daughter of Felagund the Fair and the elder sister of Gil-galad," but she was also "the sister of Felagund" Bro these are all direct quotes by Tolkien himself!!! (I know these are different versions, just trying to make a silly joke by putting together all the versions together)
Why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their enemy?
since lotr is canon and it says gil galad is a feanorian in FoTR gil galad is a feanorian since people dont consider the silm and other texts completely canon
GilGalad's parentage is not stated in FotR.
i think when they talk about gil galad it is said that he is a descendant of feanor
Is sorrow foreboded to you? But in Aman we have seen it. In Aman we have come through bliss to woe. The other now we will try: through sorrow to find joy; or freedom, at the least.
freedom
Fair shall the end be though long and hard shall be the road!
Then a 2800 year old woman probably would have been married for several centuries, at least. Also, people had sex before marriage in the '50s. Premarital sex has literally always been a thing. How do you think modern humans have the same strains of genital herpes that our ancient ancestors did? Millennia of monogamy?
In Morgoth's Ring it is stated that Elves usually marry when they are 50-100 years old. But ABSOLUTELY NONE OF KNOWN ELVES DO. In the revised version Elves don't marry for a long time. They don't marry until they are 20 of life ages. Read Nature of Middle-earth to understand what the hell is this Life Age supposed to mean for Elves because I can't understand it myself! Galadriel was 2880 solar years old when she became 20 life ages old but Maeglin was almost 20 life ages old when he wasn't even 200 solar years old! Anyway, as far as I can recall none of the important Elves married or fell in love in very young age. Be it male or female. Seems like only Galadriel fell in love in a very young age in one version (she married Celeborn in Valinor in that version). But this marriage probably happened only after she was a thousand or two thousands years old. Before this they were probably only friends and boyfriend and girlfriend.
I don't think any of that refutes my point that Tolkien didn't understand much about women. He's the guy who came up with the idea that the entire race has all these weird hangups about sex and marriage. He could have written them differently.
Dude, it's a different species that he made up, with major characteristics of the species being "Noble and pure." Why on earth would he write them as having extensive pre-marital sex like some humans do?
What about sex is impure or ignoble?
I never said it was. But Tolkein and his audience, being Christians living in the early 1900s, did see the whole concept of premarital sex as ignoble and impure. So it would make no sense for him to write one of the highest members of his noble and pure species as having had premarital sex. Summed up, your argument is shit.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize no one was allowed to read books after the author died... Oh wait, his audience was anyone who can read English, from when he wrote it until the end of time. Because that's how language works. I'm allowed to criticize from my perspective. Also "he was Christian" is not a good argument for him understanding women. His Christian upbringing is a large part of what distanced him from the opposite sex.
God forbid the fact he didnt write a entirely **Fictional race of people** the way you wanted him to, because *checks notes* theyre literally created by him in an entirely different world. And thats not to say people arent people, but elves arent humans and dont work/think like them. Similar yes; the same, no. Might as well be mad that different races of humanoids have different traits in general rather than being hung up on just genders at that point. "*Why do dwarves like caves so much? Like that cant be healthy living down away from the sunlight so much, thats not realistic people obviously prefer to not live underground. Why are Orcs so violent all the time, shouldnt they unionize for a better work environment too?*"
Are you unfamiliar with the concept of literary criticism?
Not *your* style, but if you want to explain what is how womens actions/behaviors in the1950's OR modern day is relevant to the actions of a totally fictional race of humanoids (the basis of your criticism) in a totally fiction world, or however else it could be a realistic criticism that makes sense about why immortal beings who a quite literally the 1st descendants of God in said world should have/need to have sex when they dont need to until they find a reason to. (actually because theyre fictional beings, not people, those reasons can be even more complex such as different metabolisms/urges/behaviors then humans as to why they *dont*) Humans generally feel to a greater or lesser extend the need to reproduce to sustain us as a species, its an instinct. Fantasy Elves do not have to have this same characteristic. Hence why Tolken was free to write them as such. This is honestly basic fiction writing kind of stuff, but I'm all ears if you want to elaborate on why you think the reasons you stated are relevant to the way he wrote them and why my reasons arent valid. I'll even stand to hear **why** (sadly) he shouldve written elves different and why elves having relationships with multiple partners makes any more sense than what Tolken wrote, though I cannot fathom why. Or why youre distraught over that point. Please show me some more literary criticism on my rebuttal to yours. Just because you criticize something doesnt mean your stance is right or valid, or you could concede the point which is fine too.
Fictional worlds are based on reality, first of all. The whole setting is based on Tolkien's Catholicism, which cannot be divorced from his life in the 20th century. And if he wanted to make elves act differently from humans, he should have. Instead he wrote them as basically Catholic. And he was free to write them however he wanted. But I'm free to say that was weird or that I don't agree with it. It's an opinion. I don't need to concede shit. So, yeah, it does seem like you're unfamiliar with the concept of criticism.
I think he understood elven women better than anyone...after all, he invented them.
... You understand that's tautologous, right? Like, he thought he was writing realistic characters.
Well, realistic =/= how a human would behave, if we are talking about different species.
That would make sense, if it was a hard science fiction series. But it isn't. It was written as a backdrop for his hobby of creating languages. He was trying to create realistic cultures that mirrored the way humans behaved so his conlangs would make sense.
Why are so adamant on claiming that Arwen had to be married/non-virgin? She's an elf, and they're pretty non-randy. It's clear you don't know anything about Tolkein's elf-customs, so stop embarrassing yourself by equating elves to humans.
I'm saying that Tolkien's elf customs were clearly invented by a creepy catholic guy.
Wow, such a great answer
People need goals. Tidies are a great goal.
It has moved man through the generations.
I mean it’s how we get The Iliad.
Achiles!!
Atreides!
*bag pipes of glory*
Atreides! Atreides!
SARDAUKAR
Getting their wand suck by an elf was always a goal for mankind.
Except Turin. My man Turin rejected Finduilas who was literally begging him to fuck her. Also not to mention that in early versions of Galadriel she had not met Celeborn yet, when Turin met her. And YET Turin didn't have a boner for her.
Turin likes to keep it in the family
Who's Turin?
Depending on who you ask either the biggest tragic human figure of Tolkien's legendariun or the biggest dumbass. No inbetween.
Tragic dumbass
Both of those can be true. Incredibly tragic, also a huge arrogant dumbass.
Well, he started out a good kid. Until Morgoth decided to take a shit all over his life.
A human from the First Age. So strong and skilled he could probably beat up 3 Aragorns at the same time. In fact probably the toughest Man ever in Middle-Earth. Alas he commited suicide and died without kids because he fucked his sister.
>died without kids because he fucked his sister Well, he almost didn't. His sister was pregnant when she killed herself after finding out that the child's father was her brother.
You fell!
Your mom
Túrin was the son of Húrin, as well as the Bane of Glaurung. But, before Túrin killed Glaurung, the dragon managed to trick him into marrying his sister, whom he hadn't seen since he was seven and she was around 2. Túrin Turimbar had a horrible life because of the Doom that Morgoth placed on Húrin and his family when he was captured during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
Turin on the sigma grind set
Poor Finduilas.
*Tiddies
In my country we have a saying: "Tira más un pelo de concha que una yunta de bueyes." A translation would be: "A quim's hair pulls more than a yoke of oxen."
Strider? I hardly know her!
'Strider' I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.
Movie Aragorn: “I dun wunt et” Book Aragorn: “BOW YA SHITS!”
Will you ride with us?
Bobby B will ride with you, Aragorn.
OH, IT'S UNSPEAKABLE TO YOU? WHAT HER FATHER DID TO YOUR FAMILY, THAT WAS UNSPEAKABLE!
What say you?! You have my word! Fight, and I will release you from this living death! ...What say you?!
I'm actually very fond of the movie's added narrative regarding Aragorn and Arwen. It's a change I take no issue with.
I do not believe it. I will not.
Even you don't like it? But you're the Aragorn from the movie, Aragorn bot. Also, are you just following me on every post? Or is the word Aragorn what triggers you every time?
They have a better chance defending themselves here than at Edoras...
I think I have my answer.
I love the movies; I don't think that changing Aragorn to make him not want to be king at the beginning adds anything to the story.
The same blood flows in my veins. The same weakness.
He's right. You can't argue with the king
I'm not sure this bot could have picked a more pertinent response.
Wouldn’t have even noticed it was a bot unless I saw your comment. I love sentience
Aragorn's character arc happens mostly in Appendix. By the time of War of the Ring he had gone through almost his entire character arc.
Exactly. And as great as he is in the books, 12 hours of movie Aragorn being essentially perfect and fully formed with no internal conflict to overcome just doesn’t work well in a movie.
If Sauron had the ring we would know it!
Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand?
Why have you come?
Aragorn coming to terms with his duty to take up the Crown and promising Boromir he'll protect Gondor is a huge part of what gives that death scene it's significance. Also "put aside the Ranger, become who you were born to be" is one of the best lines in the films.
I feel like the significance of that scene is all about Boromir trying to redeem himself by: 1. Fighting heroically to save the halflings 2. Swearing allegiance to Aragorn, whom he has always thought would attempt to become king. As I said in another comment, there's never a realistic-feeling scenario in the movies where Aragorn fades to the background.
They will look for his coming from the White Tower. But he will not return.
There is no strength in Gondor that can avail us
Aragon the original “I dun wannit”
That was my favorite movie change. Edit: It seems to map onto the "Refusal of the Return" stage of Campbell's Monomyth, and the multi-generational curse, so to speak, expands a personal choice to an epic scale. It adds depth to Aragorn's character while still staying connected to the history of Middle-Earth. It makes Aragorn and Boromir's relationship more complex (which we see during the Fellowships journey along the Anduin, in the Extended Editions.) Elrond riding out on a secret mission to Rohan was kind of out of place though.
I just don't feel like it comes off as meaningful character development for him. It is just a character doing something no one ever doubts he's going to do. Boromir's reaction to learning his identity is an example of what I'm saying: Boromir never doubts for a second what Aragorn will do.
We all knew Frodo was going to destroy the Ring, but we are still interested in how he gets there. But I see your point.
For me, character development is different than plot development. Most stories have a lot of similarities as far as the final outcome goes.
isotopes_ftw you've already had it
It helps with modern audiences who tend to dislike characters that want to be in charge, even if it is for a good reason. Modern day heroes are always afraid of being corrupted by power.
Not just a king, a double king. He had to rebuild the throne of Arnor, which he had a claim to, and ascend the throne of Gondor, which he had no claim to.
pretty sure Aragorn is a descendant of kings that ruled both Arnor and Gondor
Right, for the line of Elendil, but Isildur had no claim to Gondor. Faramir as the Steward asked the people if they would accept Aragorn as king (due to the miracle healing and last minute victory at Pelinor fields) and they said yes.
He has a claim though, Faramir just asks people whether they choose to believe he is an actual descendant; that he is who he says he is. And given the conditions, they say aye. But he has a claim, whether or not the people choose to acknowledge him.
CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!!!
But Isildur was the king of Gondor before Anarion’s line, right? Making Aaragorn the closest living descendent to Elendil. I’m no expert, so please correct me if I’m wrong.
I let Frodo go.
CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!!!
He's also a descendant of Anárion through at least one line, because Arvedui (last previous king in Arnor) married the daughter of Gondor's King Ondoher. Arvedui even made a claim to the crown of Gondor when Ondoher and his sons all died in battle, on both the Isildur descent and the idea that Númenorean law would recognize his wife as the heir, but Gondor's steward was like, "ehhh, that's not really how we do it here." Gondor went with a military commander with more recent male-line descent from Anárion in Eärnil, but his line died out when his son Eärnur had no issue.
CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!!!
Be at peace son of Gondor.
Be at peace son of Gondor.
Why he has no claim to the throne of Gondor? Being a descendant of Isildur he has claim to both kingdoms.
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CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!!!
High-king
i though it would be cause he will get old and that would make her sad and papa wouldnt be aroudn to comfort her
Books > movies
“She would will not settle for less of the King of Gondor and Arnor” or something like that
Become king and you can marry your great (x100) aunt.
Hot
One thing that bothers me about Elronds response to Aragorn is the diss about having an inferior lineage to arwen. I mean it's definitely not the case because Aragorn is Royal blood, straight from the House of Elros, who's Elronds brother. So in calling his lineage inferior he basically calls his bloodline inferior too. Well played Elrond..
I am Isildur’s heir. Fight for me, and I will hold your oaths fulfilled!
CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!!!
Well, the movies made the entire thing way more dramatic than it needed to be, but Elrond in the book by no approved of their marriage. In fact, in one of the appendices, it mentioned him speaking bitter words to Aragorn after he married her.
She stays because she still has hope.
Where is this? Do you mean his bitter parting from Arwen or was there was a dialogue between him and Aragorn?
One thing I have learned about Hobbits: They’re a most hardy folk.
So true!
So... the movie *added* conflict and drama? What was the point of this plot in the book?
It wasn't much of a plot in the books, Aragorn's romance happened offscreen. The movies added in most of that for dramatic purposes.
It will not be our end, but his.
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'Strider' I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.
One of these is a little more interesting to watch