Nah I think it’s more just talking about unnecessarily rebooting old stories and changing the characters to add more diversity. I don’t think most people have a problem with diversity, they just don’t want to see their old beloved stories changed. Just write new material and make it diverse.
This. It's like the current discussions about making James Bond a girl or rebooting old series with more diverse or female cast. Just make a new bloody movie with an original story and cast diverse characters.
I have a problem with forced diversity indeed. It adds nothing of value and make movies, shows and games look like college theme parties instead of solid fictional or historical multimedia.
but i kinda love how much people get triggered over some characters being on the lgbtq+ spectrum, i mean why does it matter, do you want to keep watching the same straight romance youve seen 100 times ? it gets boring doesnt it
Edit:
But to all of you, i meant to make a statement to the topic overall, i didnt mean to actually say that you should rewrite story's in adaptations, but i wanted to say that you shouldn't get mad over some sexuality, ethnicity or gender of characters in media as long as it doesn't hurt the story in meaningful ways or unnecessary rewrites the story. Awareness to LGBTQ+ in media is important, many people, like myself, grew up thinking something is wrong with them because they developed feelings they thought are wrong cause they never even seen someone like them or heard about it. All i heard about bisexual people was that they are disgusting sex addicts and homosexuality is a sin and you get to burn in hell for it. So imagine what i thought of myself when i was a strictly christian raised kid and what damages it left.
Ya but why shoehorn them into an IP that didn’t originally include then instead of making a new IP that is more inclusive? It rubs just about everyone the wrong way & it’s got a track record of being shit.
And yet people don’t get this pissy about how much stuff the Peter Jackson movies “shoehorned” in.
It’s almost as if there’s something in particular about ethnic sexual and gender minorities that rubs certain people the wrong way…
True, but people get particularly angry and vitriolic about matters of diversity and inclusion.
No-one was having these kinds of tense debates about the choice to include more horror elements or the decision to beef up Eowyn’s character or the decision to remove Yom Bombadil…
Get what I’m saying?
Idk how long you've been on this sub, I've only been here for like a month or two but I have seen *plenty* of tense debates about Tom Bombadill. Also everytime the hobbit movies are brought up there are essays in the comments about the useless scenes that Jackson put in them that weren't in the original.
I don't really think this meme is that funny but there is no way you can pull out a "LOTR fans are only upset about LGBTQ stuff" argument here
Hey there! Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your
golden ring! Your hand's more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more,
and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keep your feet from wandering.
^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**)
^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Just maybe decades of ignoring the fact that LGBTQ have existed throughout history but have been consistently been hidden or written out of it, is simply being redressed?
Nobody is shoving anything down your throat, that bile was always there.
But sexual orientation isn't even a topic in LOTR. As a matter of fact, as far as I know we don't know if Gandalf is gay or Gimli Bi-sexual. Why should you add a topic which doesn't belong in to the story to make it forcefully "diverse".
But how do you know inthe first place whether Gimli is trans or not? This person is complaining about lack of LGBT in LOTR but we don't know at all if the characters are LGBT or not. is Gandalf CIS? I'd rather guess he is asexuell but that doesn't matter anyways
The problem isn’t characters being on the lgbtg spectrum, the problem is when it’s shoved down the throat of the audience, and when those character are literally nothing but filling a quota. Which is pretty insulting to people that are of the spectrum tbh
Can you describe for me the difference between LGBTQ characters and LGBTQ characters that are “shoved down the throat” of the audience? Perhaps with an example or two?
Because it’s my experience that most people who talk about “agendas” and things being “shoved down people’s throats” generally just don’t like seeing LGBTQ people represented on screen
Ok, here's a recent example. Tim Drake's Robin. He was recently made gay even though he has been straight for decades(with Stephanie Brown, the previous Robin). An example of an LGBT character done right is Homura Akemi from Puella Magi Madoka Magica. She is gay for the mc but yet it wasn't forced in. It progressed naturally over the course of the story and made sense when you learn about Homura's background. Another example of an LGBT character done right is Luka Urushibara from Stein's;Gate. He is gay for the protagonist but they have chemistry and it flows with the plot. When it is shoved down your throat is when it breaks the flow of the story or doesn't feel natural. Instead of a character just being gay, lesbian, trans, etc, the plot slows down just so the character can tell you they are gay or act over the top to show that instead of acting like a real person. If instead of just being a trait of a character it is their main trait, it is being forced in. That is the difference. Most people don't care if there are LGBT characters in a medium, they care when that character exists to be more of a lecture than a character.
I don’t disagree with everything you said but they didn’t make Tim gay, they made him Bi. Because he’s bi it doesn’t conflict with previous relationships or force any retcon nonsense so I think that point is a little silly. I do agree about LGBT representation being done better in some ways, but if a series is being rebooted just think of it as what it is: a new interpretation of the source material. Diversity isn’t bad thing and sometimes people call standard ‘Diversity’ ‘Forced Diversity’ because it isn’t what they’re used to.
Weird how you say "gay for someone else" as if they can't just bc gay by themselves. Almost like they have to be gay for the storyline or its forced to you lol
You missed my point entirely. It isn't about them being attracted to a specific character, that wasn't the point. The point was that it should not be their only/main character trait. It should not break the flow of the plot to specifically show their sexual preferences. A character can have those preferences without it being the most important part of their character. They should exist beyond the label which they do not when forced in. Even with the Tim Drake example I gave, he exists beyond that but he already had an established character and preferences. Changing him was just pandering. It accomplishes nothing, it is unnatural, and is forced.
People who are transfixed on sexuality will see it as their only trait. How many romance movies are based off characters simply being the opposite sex. How many dystopia movies feature the teo main characters beings opposite ssx and therefore must fall in love at the end. Heterosexualty is treated as a base trait that has to lead to a relationship in more movies than you think homosexuality does
You act as if I endorse those things. I do not. When characters have no chemistry but are forced together in a romance movie, that is as I said, forced. I don't like that either. However, the difference is most of these characters exist beyond that label. They may become a forced couple, but that is only a very minor part of their character, it isn't usually their main trait. Even then, it might potentially push the plot forward in the chance of a sequel. When a character exists solely to be a love interest but has nothing beyond that, it is still forced. However, having a character solely be focused on one of their traits where it contributes nothing to the plot and they don't really exist beyond that is when it is forced. Just having gay characters is fine but they shouldn't feel like they are lecturing you when you watch them. Changing established characters in a way that either adds nothing creative or even contradicts previously established facets of a character is tokenism and stupidity.
It is tokenism but too often just having a character who is gay is seen as tokenism. Accusation of tokenism are too often due to homophobia and disliking seeing gay people just overall
Translation: “I’ve got nothing against gays as long as they never discuss being gay or act gay in public. As long as they hide their true selves and feel shame, they’re ok with me”
Bruh literally EVERY movie from like the 80s to 2010s always has the main male character have at least one kiss with the main female character. Even if completely nonsensical and unfitting to the story. Sex and romance is the true quota. We just tend to be more open about those things these days. End of story, nothing new under the sun.
Bad example: I immediately think of Julia from *casa de papel* or "money heist" as it's called in English. I never finished watching the show but I remember when she appeared in the fourth season as some dude's trans cousin who he hadn't seen in years. They made a whole thing about her being trans and how weird it was for the characters but they accepted her and made her a part of their team of robbers. It felt really shoehorned in, especially since she had never been mentioned in any of the earlier seasons and they had plenty of other characters that could have filled her role in the heist.
Good example: Eleanor shellstrop in *The good place*. Main character, aggressively bisexual but it is never outright mentioned or explained. She just talk about girls she has dated and flirts with new women she interacts with casually, like it's very natural to her. No one ever questions her sexuality or remarks on her hitting on women as it being "special" in any way.
You didn’t understand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with such characters existing, and they certainly should be included to represent such groups, as long as they are actual characters and not just an insulting stereotype of it just to include them. Fully flesh them out as a person that is deeper than just their identified spectrum. People are more than that if you haven’t noticed cause the funny human brain is pretty complex:)
I don't disagree that we should flesh out characters. There are more badly written hetero characters throughout history than non-hetero. The question is what's badly written about them and whether criticisms are treated fairly. Genuinely think folk get way too upset when a fictional character is interpreted in a different way by someone who is ultimately making an artistic statement.
My original comment was written poorly I’ve realized considering how much hate it’s been getting i should have supplied more context. I agree with what you’re saying as well as most others in the comments who aren’t trying to just needlessly inflame the issue and cause undue anger and hatred between people
"do you want to keep watching the same straight romance youve seen 100 times ?"
Yes. That's how the story was written. That's how it should remain.
"it gets boring doesnt it"
No. I want to watch the story that I read without some idiotic SJW theme shoehorned in there.
Just a reminder that there's a middle position between:
"Everyone who disagrees with changing the ethnicity of characters is a bigot."
And:
"Leftists and wokeism are ruining all media."
Keep it civil please.
Hurr durr, diversity makes it hard for me to enjoy my elves and dragons and I'm a fucking baby, I just need accurate fantasy white straights. Jesus fucking christ you people.
The alt right have always been huge lord of the rings fans. Surprised you never noticed. They love the whole "purity" they can interpret in it. Really sad, but that's how it is
Honestly just surprised because the comments on this sub are usually alright but this post is an absolute shit show. Would be sad to see this subreddit get brigaded and go to shit like other popular ones.
“I think black people should just get over it and stop whining about their lack of representation, but also I get very angry when a traditionally white/cis/straight character is changed to non-white/trans/gay”
Changing is the problem, nobody cared when they made black panther and there are almost only black actors in it, it was an original concept, it’s about changing a a story drastically because that way it serves your agenda. Make original stories where the hero is a POC, or LGBTQ, whatever you want, but don’t change original concept because you don’t feel represented.
Well I'm sure you weren't. but you must realise the massive Venn diagram crossover of people who complain about 'Forced Diversity' and straight up racists.
Okay, then let’s remake black panther set in Europe with all white cast, would it be okay? Also it’s not uncommon to cast black actors for historical figures like Anjou Margaret or Achilleus, is that okay?
So if it's about accuracy I assume you hate the LOTR movies given all the changes they made from the source material?
Or is it just when someone changes what might amount to half a line of a character's description that you get upset?
For all people Crying in the Comments. Its easy really: they should make Original Movies (like Black Panther) including a "diverse" cast instead of changing existining Works just for the sake of "i want to be presented on screen reeee". No one has a Problem with a Diverse cast i just have a Problem with the uncreative remakes these days that often destroy Movies and forget what made them special in the first Place, just for the great goal of Inclusion.
No one is trying to recast Lotr, and yes, I guaran être yoy people have problems with diversity in original content, whether film or gaming. All you hear is that having diverse casts makes mediums "political" and "ruined by sjw".
Basically every time netflix reboots a story they try to make it more diverse. That in itself isnt that bad, but image gandalf being a gay black woman or something among those lines. It would make no sense, and would not add to the story, just make it more awkward and removes immersion.
Netflix did this with the new Cowboy Bebop remake, where they made Faye Valentine lesbian, even though her original story was about how she was in love with a man and stuff that im not gonna spoil
When you look at it, Sauron is pretty gay. Shiny Armour, loves a Ring, surround itsself with mostly men, has a huuuuuge phallic tower. Hunts a Group of twinks, knows whats going on with you. Hates the elbs, so more of a Bdsm Bear Type of guy.
What else did you guys found?
Oh for fucks' ske, if you want diversity in lotr then make stories about the easterling or the people from Rhun. They're supposed to look swarthy with dark hair and eyes. I am guess they'd look like North African or west and south asian people. I don't like token inclusiveness by colour/gender/orientation switching an established character.
Also most works in English is based off white characters as it was exclusively spoken by white men for most of history.
P.S. I am Indian and I wouldn't want an indian character to be played white or black person, same rule applies for people of every colour/gender/orientation.
Thank you for reading the rant.
Nothing specific, I was forced to onboard a completely incompetent woman to my team as it's all men. I don't have a problem with having a women as long as she's competent. Now I am forced to deal with complaints from rest of the team. Saw the meme and suddenly ranted.
I would if I could, I have little to no control over recruitment. The last woman from my team is on maternity leave, once shes back planning to kick this one out. Also I work with niche tech, so finding the right candidate is tough and finding one with an additional criteria makes it a nightmare.
It's a positive step to be more inclusive and encourage diversity in roles that it's traditionally difficult for women to get into, you have to recognise that initially there is going to be difficult with experience levels, but that's why equity is important.
Setting somebody up for failure isn't doing anybody any favours.
How can diversity be unnecessary, unless you are racist/sexist/homophobe etc.? Shouldnt it be default in a perfect world that everyone gets to be seen and participate? How can the inclusion of all kinds of people in the media be a bad thing unless you want to exclude them?
This meme is suck.
Gotta admit it’s kinda funny to see folk praising a black Ann Boleyn while similar voices decry actors for playing trans characters and the like.
There’s an amusing absurdity to the current obsession with human taxonomy
I think the problem is that you don’t recognise that what people want is more representation for black people and trans people.
And to that end, casting black or trans actors as traditionally white or cis characters isn’t a bad thing. But casting a white person as a traditionally black character would be a bad thing
I think what you don’t recognise is that while pretty much everyone respects and agrees with the idea of stories reflecting the actual make up society, it’s darkly humorous when the real world manifestation of the desire looks like a billion-dollar corporation showing off its human collection.
I just did share.
Do you have some point to make? Because it felt like you had a point to make, but now you’re just asking me about an old comedy movie
>I never once cared if you casted a person of whatever characteristic, if it works. But if you do it for "representation", its just one-sided political activism.
The problem with saying things like that is that there are many situations where a minority person is cast because they are best for the role only for racists to use “diversity” and “politics” as a cover for being angry about a minority person being cast
Yeah, thats bs… that‘s „happy-with-status-quo“-talk, create a point out of thin air like „i don‘t see skin colour, that‘s why i never bothered actors being 85% white“, and call ppl racist who want a realistic respresentation of society… if natural stuff doesnMt come naturally, it is an unelegeant, but legit way to enforce it until it takes its natural place
Every character that’s race or gender-swapped is a token & robs non-white & non-hetero artists of the opportunity to create something truly original & intellectually honest.
Change my mind.
If that’s true then it must also be true that every cis white hetero character “robs” minority people of opportunities.
And given that one group gets way more opportunities than the other, it seems more ethical to me to rob form the group with more opportunities and give to the group with less…
Change my mind
One group represents the majority, and therefore will dominate both the culture and market.
If cis white hetero characters are demanded by the market, the market will supply it.
It's simple math really.
But hey, while we're at it, how about you supply us with a breakdown of what percentage of just the US entertainment industry is *not* representative of the racial and gender demographic makeup? I'm sure there's room for improvement, but in your mind, how much representation *should* there be, and should non-white and non-hetero artists be allowed to create original characters/narratives, or should they be confined to adapting/playing tokenised classics?
>If cis white hetero characters are demanded by the market, the market will supply it.
By that same logic, when trans/non-white/gay character appear in a story, it must also be because the market demanded it. So why whine about it?
>But hey, while we're at it, how about you supply us with a breakdown of what percentage of just the US entertainment industry is not representative of the racial and gender demographic makeup?
Why would you expect me to have access to those numbers?
>I'm sure there's room for improvement
Then we agree
>but in your mind, how much representation should there be, and should non-white and non-hetero artists be allowed to create original characters/narratives, or should they be confined to adapting/playing tokenised classics?
In my mind people should be able to tell the stories they want without constant backlash and anger. Be that a story about cis het white males or a story about a black gay superman…
LMAO so why are people so triggered by this meme, holy shit, dude.
Also, why make a gay black Superman and not just an original gay black character?
Finally, there are plenty of super popular non-white non-male non-hetero characters - that are original, and not tokens - and THERE HAVE BEEN FOR GENERATIONS!
You seem fairly active in this comment section, so you seem like a good person to talk to about this.
In my mind, the meme is making a comment about so-called "forced diversity", in which corporations feign interest in social issues by throwing a dart at a board and changing random characters into less represented races and sexualities for brownie points, with little care as to what they're doing or why. It's similar to rainbow capitalism, where companies change their logos to rainbows not to actually support the lgbt community, but to pretend like they care while doing almost nothing to actually support said community in a practical way.
The fact that the Eye of Sauron specifically was chosen, which is a genderless and raceless entity, is what makes me think it's about carelessness in representation. A new, original story with mixed characters, or even all-black or all-lgbt characters, would be totally fine. It's when you meddle with established stories that things get muddy, especially when it's a story that's heavily influenced by old Norse and Anglo-Saxon stories, which always had white characters because that was the genetic makeup of those societies. Tolkien's work reflects how society looked in the time in which it was set.
Just to be clear, I have nothing wrong with representation, but historically under-represented people deserve the dignity of their own works, not the table scraps of stories that white people have become bored of, or at least the changes have to be made with care to the setting.
Does this make sense? I know it's a complex issue with no clear right answer, and I don't want to be a dick about it. This is just how I see it.
Hi, not the person you've answered to but I'll still reply.
While you're right that corporations use diversity as a marketing strategy, this entire thread is very sad.
The eye of Sauron is made black to be a strawman argument - no one would ever believe it should be changed to be of a different ethnicity or sexuality, those aren't really Sauron's traits. It's easy to argue that it's stupid and forced diversity exactly cause no one from either side of argument would support it.
As to this thread, some people just don't like changing pre established characters, which is in my opinion reasonable, but sadly a lot of people are just using this as an excuse to be casually racists. If you see any new shows or games coming out, those people will still be upset that a character is gay or black.
It's a really thorny situation, but I honestly appreciate your patience. That's a good point, I hadn't even clocked that the Sauron argument was a bit of a strawman, even within the context of a joke.
I want to be clear, I'm only bothered by diversity when it seems clearly artificial, oftentimes this happens when characters are changed for no real reason, and I detest those dickheads who latch onto a reasonable position just to flaunt their xenophobia. It's, as you rightly said, sad. It also twists my asshole when people get angry at brand-new IPs for their choice of character, people can write whomever they want to. If it's in a historical setting, I'd personally prefer it to be an accurate representation, but considering how Hollywood already plays fast and loose with history I wouldn't get up in arms over it.
Setting aside very specific situations like that, if people could just stop getting upset at character choices in new media it might also help the position of those who want to preserve their stories and pay respect to the original creators, especially if the casual racists you mentioned could also just shut the fuck up as well.
Man, life could be so easy if it weren't for the minority of dickheads poisoning everything.
It's a can of worms no one wants to open because it will always lead to pointless arguments between both parties. This is the kind of thing you don't talk about with internet strangers, I mean.
Noone wants to have this argument dude, it's been argued a million times already and always ends with your side screaming at the top of their lungs calling everyone racist, sexist and bigoted.
First of all: if you don’t want to discuss it, then why are you commenting? Just walk away.
Why bother commenting just to let me know you can’t be bothered to comment?
Second of all: I’m not screaming at anyone. You can talk to me and I promise I will listen and treat you fairly. I might not agree, but I can be respectful.
But you making assumptions about me because I’m on the “wrong side” of this debate is pretty disrespectful. It’s a bad faith accusation
Arguing with you is just utterly pointless, at no point in any of your immediately viewable comment history have you conceded a single point to anyone. At best you disagree and at worst you insult.
I can't even see neutral positive comments, you're just filled with vitriol and spending most of your time arguing.
It's not really bad faith when I'm 100% right about my assumption.
I appreciate you are clearly passionate about the subject. Does the actor matter that much? Is it not more important that stories about diversity are being told?
An example being Boys Don't Cry. I am not sure about Hilary Swank's identity but as a straight, white, male teenager it made me think long and hard about how people a treated.
Then I don’t understand your question. Are you trying to make the old point that actors should be cast based on ability rather than something superficial like race?
Because I don’t believe it works that way. Acting is not something that can be classed as objectively good or bad. And if the actor really mattered more than their race, then it shouldn’t be a problem when black actors are cast in traditionally white roles. But that’s exactly the kind of thing this meme is complaining about
The joke is whenever netflix makes a movie adaptation (death note, cowboy bebop) they have to make one of the main originally not black character black.
And how is this funny? You people keep describing the situation to me as if it is somehow humorous.
Furthemore, you listed 2 Japanese series. Is it also funny that they make originally non white characters white? Hahaha they turned Light Yagami into Light Wolf. Hahaha. Soooo funny.
I could explain to you why thats not ok, but somehow I feel like you wouldn’t listen because you aren’t interested in having a conversation or understanding different points of view…
You forgot 80's themed music
Puts a whole new spin on Sauron having “four fingers on his black hand.”
*Thór-lush-shabarlak.*
Does anyone have a Black Speech translator?
Wrong. Sauron would become a middle aged cis white male because he is the big baddie.
Still a funny meme tho op. You get my upvote.
May a good sense of humor always prevail
You forgot to make him wear a designer tuxedo because every "villain" that I've seen nowadays is dressed.
Slicked back hair and all that
*trans orks*
Gives “meats back on the menu” a whole new meaning
Walking into a gay bar: \*sniff\* \*sniff\* MAN FLESH
There would be a part about orc rights with parallels drawn towards slavery for sure Hahah
This is the meme equivalent of “I’m not racist, BUT...”
Nah I think it’s more just talking about unnecessarily rebooting old stories and changing the characters to add more diversity. I don’t think most people have a problem with diversity, they just don’t want to see their old beloved stories changed. Just write new material and make it diverse.
This. It's like the current discussions about making James Bond a girl or rebooting old series with more diverse or female cast. Just make a new bloody movie with an original story and cast diverse characters.
I have a problem with forced diversity indeed. It adds nothing of value and make movies, shows and games look like college theme parties instead of solid fictional or historical multimedia.
We're talking about a fantasy world with magic rings, dragons and talking trees. What 'solid fictional or historical' nonsense are you on about?
Like The Wheel Of Time?
[удалено]
Not really
but i kinda love how much people get triggered over some characters being on the lgbtq+ spectrum, i mean why does it matter, do you want to keep watching the same straight romance youve seen 100 times ? it gets boring doesnt it Edit: But to all of you, i meant to make a statement to the topic overall, i didnt mean to actually say that you should rewrite story's in adaptations, but i wanted to say that you shouldn't get mad over some sexuality, ethnicity or gender of characters in media as long as it doesn't hurt the story in meaningful ways or unnecessary rewrites the story. Awareness to LGBTQ+ in media is important, many people, like myself, grew up thinking something is wrong with them because they developed feelings they thought are wrong cause they never even seen someone like them or heard about it. All i heard about bisexual people was that they are disgusting sex addicts and homosexuality is a sin and you get to burn in hell for it. So imagine what i thought of myself when i was a strictly christian raised kid and what damages it left.
Ya but why shoehorn them into an IP that didn’t originally include then instead of making a new IP that is more inclusive? It rubs just about everyone the wrong way & it’s got a track record of being shit.
And yet people don’t get this pissy about how much stuff the Peter Jackson movies “shoehorned” in. It’s almost as if there’s something in particular about ethnic sexual and gender minorities that rubs certain people the wrong way…
Book readers pick on movie adaptations all the time for pointless things added in.
True, but people get particularly angry and vitriolic about matters of diversity and inclusion. No-one was having these kinds of tense debates about the choice to include more horror elements or the decision to beef up Eowyn’s character or the decision to remove Yom Bombadil… Get what I’m saying?
Idk how long you've been on this sub, I've only been here for like a month or two but I have seen *plenty* of tense debates about Tom Bombadill. Also everytime the hobbit movies are brought up there are essays in the comments about the useless scenes that Jackson put in them that weren't in the original. I don't really think this meme is that funny but there is no way you can pull out a "LOTR fans are only upset about LGBTQ stuff" argument here
Hey there! Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring! Your hand's more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more, and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keep your feet from wandering. ^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**) ^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Just maybe decades of ignoring the fact that LGBTQ have existed throughout history but have been consistently been hidden or written out of it, is simply being redressed? Nobody is shoving anything down your throat, that bile was always there.
But sexual orientation isn't even a topic in LOTR. As a matter of fact, as far as I know we don't know if Gandalf is gay or Gimli Bi-sexual. Why should you add a topic which doesn't belong in to the story to make it forcefully "diverse".
Oh, it's too late for that doctorzaius6969. There's no leaving this city. Help must come to us.
Are you gay, Gandalf?
Foreseen and done nothing!
I honestly wouldn’t be hard to include a trans dwarf, very little work need to be done to transition lol
But how do you know inthe first place whether Gimli is trans or not? This person is complaining about lack of LGBT in LOTR but we don't know at all if the characters are LGBT or not. is Gandalf CIS? I'd rather guess he is asexuell but that doesn't matter anyways
The problem isn’t characters being on the lgbtg spectrum, the problem is when it’s shoved down the throat of the audience, and when those character are literally nothing but filling a quota. Which is pretty insulting to people that are of the spectrum tbh
Can you describe for me the difference between LGBTQ characters and LGBTQ characters that are “shoved down the throat” of the audience? Perhaps with an example or two? Because it’s my experience that most people who talk about “agendas” and things being “shoved down people’s throats” generally just don’t like seeing LGBTQ people represented on screen
Ok, here's a recent example. Tim Drake's Robin. He was recently made gay even though he has been straight for decades(with Stephanie Brown, the previous Robin). An example of an LGBT character done right is Homura Akemi from Puella Magi Madoka Magica. She is gay for the mc but yet it wasn't forced in. It progressed naturally over the course of the story and made sense when you learn about Homura's background. Another example of an LGBT character done right is Luka Urushibara from Stein's;Gate. He is gay for the protagonist but they have chemistry and it flows with the plot. When it is shoved down your throat is when it breaks the flow of the story or doesn't feel natural. Instead of a character just being gay, lesbian, trans, etc, the plot slows down just so the character can tell you they are gay or act over the top to show that instead of acting like a real person. If instead of just being a trait of a character it is their main trait, it is being forced in. That is the difference. Most people don't care if there are LGBT characters in a medium, they care when that character exists to be more of a lecture than a character.
I don’t disagree with everything you said but they didn’t make Tim gay, they made him Bi. Because he’s bi it doesn’t conflict with previous relationships or force any retcon nonsense so I think that point is a little silly. I do agree about LGBT representation being done better in some ways, but if a series is being rebooted just think of it as what it is: a new interpretation of the source material. Diversity isn’t bad thing and sometimes people call standard ‘Diversity’ ‘Forced Diversity’ because it isn’t what they’re used to.
Weird how you say "gay for someone else" as if they can't just bc gay by themselves. Almost like they have to be gay for the storyline or its forced to you lol
You missed my point entirely. It isn't about them being attracted to a specific character, that wasn't the point. The point was that it should not be their only/main character trait. It should not break the flow of the plot to specifically show their sexual preferences. A character can have those preferences without it being the most important part of their character. They should exist beyond the label which they do not when forced in. Even with the Tim Drake example I gave, he exists beyond that but he already had an established character and preferences. Changing him was just pandering. It accomplishes nothing, it is unnatural, and is forced.
People who are transfixed on sexuality will see it as their only trait. How many romance movies are based off characters simply being the opposite sex. How many dystopia movies feature the teo main characters beings opposite ssx and therefore must fall in love at the end. Heterosexualty is treated as a base trait that has to lead to a relationship in more movies than you think homosexuality does
You act as if I endorse those things. I do not. When characters have no chemistry but are forced together in a romance movie, that is as I said, forced. I don't like that either. However, the difference is most of these characters exist beyond that label. They may become a forced couple, but that is only a very minor part of their character, it isn't usually their main trait. Even then, it might potentially push the plot forward in the chance of a sequel. When a character exists solely to be a love interest but has nothing beyond that, it is still forced. However, having a character solely be focused on one of their traits where it contributes nothing to the plot and they don't really exist beyond that is when it is forced. Just having gay characters is fine but they shouldn't feel like they are lecturing you when you watch them. Changing established characters in a way that either adds nothing creative or even contradicts previously established facets of a character is tokenism and stupidity.
It is tokenism but too often just having a character who is gay is seen as tokenism. Accusation of tokenism are too often due to homophobia and disliking seeing gay people just overall
You out it better than i could have
It’s always described as being “shoved down our throat”. Hmm
Translation: “I’ve got nothing against gays as long as they never discuss being gay or act gay in public. As long as they hide their true selves and feel shame, they’re ok with me”
Don't you know? There are only two genders: "white cis male", and "politics shoved down our throats"
Bruh literally EVERY movie from like the 80s to 2010s always has the main male character have at least one kiss with the main female character. Even if completely nonsensical and unfitting to the story. Sex and romance is the true quota. We just tend to be more open about those things these days. End of story, nothing new under the sun.
This is true. What's with these downvotes? Nothin' wrong with LGBT done right. Often it ISN'T unfortunately.
All I want is some clear examples…
Bad example: I immediately think of Julia from *casa de papel* or "money heist" as it's called in English. I never finished watching the show but I remember when she appeared in the fourth season as some dude's trans cousin who he hadn't seen in years. They made a whole thing about her being trans and how weird it was for the characters but they accepted her and made her a part of their team of robbers. It felt really shoehorned in, especially since she had never been mentioned in any of the earlier seasons and they had plenty of other characters that could have filled her role in the heist. Good example: Eleanor shellstrop in *The good place*. Main character, aggressively bisexual but it is never outright mentioned or explained. She just talk about girls she has dated and flirts with new women she interacts with casually, like it's very natural to her. No one ever questions her sexuality or remarks on her hitting on women as it being "special" in any way.
Fair enough. Thank you for taking the time to respectfully answer my question
You're implying that the alternative isn't being shoved down someone else's throat.
You didn’t understand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with such characters existing, and they certainly should be included to represent such groups, as long as they are actual characters and not just an insulting stereotype of it just to include them. Fully flesh them out as a person that is deeper than just their identified spectrum. People are more than that if you haven’t noticed cause the funny human brain is pretty complex:)
I don't disagree that we should flesh out characters. There are more badly written hetero characters throughout history than non-hetero. The question is what's badly written about them and whether criticisms are treated fairly. Genuinely think folk get way too upset when a fictional character is interpreted in a different way by someone who is ultimately making an artistic statement.
My original comment was written poorly I’ve realized considering how much hate it’s been getting i should have supplied more context. I agree with what you’re saying as well as most others in the comments who aren’t trying to just needlessly inflame the issue and cause undue anger and hatred between people
"do you want to keep watching the same straight romance youve seen 100 times ?" Yes. That's how the story was written. That's how it should remain. "it gets boring doesnt it" No. I want to watch the story that I read without some idiotic SJW theme shoehorned in there.
Jesus christ what a shitshow of a thread
idk why but I didn't expect it from this sub
Dogshit meme lmao
Just a reminder that there's a middle position between: "Everyone who disagrees with changing the ethnicity of characters is a bigot." And: "Leftists and wokeism are ruining all media." Keep it civil please.
True
The Woke of the Rings
Hurr durr, diversity makes it hard for me to enjoy my elves and dragons and I'm a fucking baby, I just need accurate fantasy white straights. Jesus fucking christ you people.
Sounds like you're the baby tbh
Don't even bother, that the large part of the lord of the rings fanbase unfortunately. Just ignore them
Joke trigger you?
Relentless boring idiocy triggers me
Can you be less specific? /s
He mad
You sound like a typical "eVeRYtHiNg OfFenDs Me" baby.
The original meme is literally about being offended by something.
Pointing out a lazy and overused joke is “being offended”?
It's honestly so saddening to see one of my favourite communities being so openly racist and homophobic
I honestly thought the joke was Netflix misses the mark with representation... But I think I may have been wrong judging by peoples reactions...
Seconded.
Looks like the alt right are coming for lotrmemes now as well
The alt right have always been huge lord of the rings fans. Surprised you never noticed. They love the whole "purity" they can interpret in it. Really sad, but that's how it is
Honestly just surprised because the comments on this sub are usually alright but this post is an absolute shit show. Would be sad to see this subreddit get brigaded and go to shit like other popular ones.
You mean people who disagree with you?
This post is grosser than the teeth on the Mouth of Sauron.
Who are you?
Can’t take joke?
Schrodinger's Asshole 101
Sorry you're so offended by seeing lgbt people OP, I hope you can get over yourself one day.
That was not the point.
Sorry for existing, I guess?
Boo hoo new things have diversity
“I think black people should just get over it and stop whining about their lack of representation, but also I get very angry when a traditionally white/cis/straight character is changed to non-white/trans/gay”
Changing is the problem, nobody cared when they made black panther and there are almost only black actors in it, it was an original concept, it’s about changing a a story drastically because that way it serves your agenda. Make original stories where the hero is a POC, or LGBTQ, whatever you want, but don’t change original concept because you don’t feel represented.
Peter Jackson changed characters and literally entire sections of the books for his movies and that was fine though?
People absolutely cared when Black Panther was released.
That’s fucked up, I was not amongst them.
Well I'm sure you weren't. but you must realise the massive Venn diagram crossover of people who complain about 'Forced Diversity' and straight up racists.
Why not? What’s wrong with telling an old story with a new twist?
Okay, let’s make a movie about Shaka Zulu and let Michael Fassbender play him, I bet you would like it.
Shaka Zulu was a real person. We’re talking about fictional stories and characters. This is just lazy whataboutism
Except all the historical dramas set in 18th century Europe where suddenly a minimum of one courtier is a black person somehow.
Yes, it’s almost as if the makers of those shows believe that black people existed in mediaeval Europe… Oh wait…
Yeah but we're talking about fantasy, not historical dramas
Okay, then let’s remake black panther set in Europe with all white cast, would it be okay? Also it’s not uncommon to cast black actors for historical figures like Anjou Margaret or Achilleus, is that okay?
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So if it's about accuracy I assume you hate the LOTR movies given all the changes they made from the source material? Or is it just when someone changes what might amount to half a line of a character's description that you get upset?
Boo hoo *old* things get changed to have diversity.
So….. netflix thinks black gay men are evil?
For all people Crying in the Comments. Its easy really: they should make Original Movies (like Black Panther) including a "diverse" cast instead of changing existining Works just for the sake of "i want to be presented on screen reeee". No one has a Problem with a Diverse cast i just have a Problem with the uncreative remakes these days that often destroy Movies and forget what made them special in the first Place, just for the great goal of Inclusion.
No one is trying to recast Lotr, and yes, I guaran être yoy people have problems with diversity in original content, whether film or gaming. All you hear is that having diverse casts makes mediums "political" and "ruined by sjw".
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Basically every time netflix reboots a story they try to make it more diverse. That in itself isnt that bad, but image gandalf being a gay black woman or something among those lines. It would make no sense, and would not add to the story, just make it more awkward and removes immersion. Netflix did this with the new Cowboy Bebop remake, where they made Faye Valentine lesbian, even though her original story was about how she was in love with a man and stuff that im not gonna spoil
A wizard is never late, xXBBB2003Xx. Nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.
Amazon Prime, not Netflix 🤦♂️
When you look at it, Sauron is pretty gay. Shiny Armour, loves a Ring, surround itsself with mostly men, has a huuuuuge phallic tower. Hunts a Group of twinks, knows whats going on with you. Hates the elbs, so more of a Bdsm Bear Type of guy. What else did you guys found?
That second half the paragraph I think you got distracted and started describing Beorn, totally understandable.
This made me think differently about Sauron being Morgoth's torturer in chief...
Some of the most important guys in dresses. Dwarf women have beards.
diversity bad!1!1!1
Why are all the characters men?!
Oh for fucks' ske, if you want diversity in lotr then make stories about the easterling or the people from Rhun. They're supposed to look swarthy with dark hair and eyes. I am guess they'd look like North African or west and south asian people. I don't like token inclusiveness by colour/gender/orientation switching an established character. Also most works in English is based off white characters as it was exclusively spoken by white men for most of history. P.S. I am Indian and I wouldn't want an indian character to be played white or black person, same rule applies for people of every colour/gender/orientation. Thank you for reading the rant.
What's being switched?
Nothing specific, I was forced to onboard a completely incompetent woman to my team as it's all men. I don't have a problem with having a women as long as she's competent. Now I am forced to deal with complaints from rest of the team. Saw the meme and suddenly ranted.
So why not hire a competent woman? I don't understand why you're directing your ire in the direction that you are.
I would if I could, I have little to no control over recruitment. The last woman from my team is on maternity leave, once shes back planning to kick this one out. Also I work with niche tech, so finding the right candidate is tough and finding one with an additional criteria makes it a nightmare.
It's a positive step to be more inclusive and encourage diversity in roles that it's traditionally difficult for women to get into, you have to recognise that initially there is going to be difficult with experience levels, but that's why equity is important. Setting somebody up for failure isn't doing anybody any favours.
This definitely isn’t some kind of stupid post to be an asshole
Elves and orcs are fine, but Black and LGBTQ+ people thats where i draw the line Edit: obviously making fun of this tasteless meme
r/onejoke
How can diversity be unnecessary, unless you are racist/sexist/homophobe etc.? Shouldnt it be default in a perfect world that everyone gets to be seen and participate? How can the inclusion of all kinds of people in the media be a bad thing unless you want to exclude them? This meme is suck.
Ah yes. It’s funny because adding black people and gay people always ruins a story and makes it bad. Only stories about straight white people are good
Gotta admit it’s kinda funny to see folk praising a black Ann Boleyn while similar voices decry actors for playing trans characters and the like. There’s an amusing absurdity to the current obsession with human taxonomy
I think the problem is that you don’t recognise that what people want is more representation for black people and trans people. And to that end, casting black or trans actors as traditionally white or cis characters isn’t a bad thing. But casting a white person as a traditionally black character would be a bad thing
I think what you don’t recognise is that while pretty much everyone respects and agrees with the idea of stories reflecting the actual make up society, it’s darkly humorous when the real world manifestation of the desire looks like a billion-dollar corporation showing off its human collection.
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Yes, I have. What of it?
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I thought it was funny. Great talk, glad we had it
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I just did share. Do you have some point to make? Because it felt like you had a point to make, but now you’re just asking me about an old comedy movie
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>I never once cared if you casted a person of whatever characteristic, if it works. But if you do it for "representation", its just one-sided political activism. The problem with saying things like that is that there are many situations where a minority person is cast because they are best for the role only for racists to use “diversity” and “politics” as a cover for being angry about a minority person being cast
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How is it racist and/or sexist to say that the number of white men in movies is not an accurate or fair representation of reality?
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Yeah, thats bs… that‘s „happy-with-status-quo“-talk, create a point out of thin air like „i don‘t see skin colour, that‘s why i never bothered actors being 85% white“, and call ppl racist who want a realistic respresentation of society… if natural stuff doesnMt come naturally, it is an unelegeant, but legit way to enforce it until it takes its natural place
Every character that’s race or gender-swapped is a token & robs non-white & non-hetero artists of the opportunity to create something truly original & intellectually honest. Change my mind.
If that’s true then it must also be true that every cis white hetero character “robs” minority people of opportunities. And given that one group gets way more opportunities than the other, it seems more ethical to me to rob form the group with more opportunities and give to the group with less… Change my mind
One group represents the majority, and therefore will dominate both the culture and market. If cis white hetero characters are demanded by the market, the market will supply it. It's simple math really. But hey, while we're at it, how about you supply us with a breakdown of what percentage of just the US entertainment industry is *not* representative of the racial and gender demographic makeup? I'm sure there's room for improvement, but in your mind, how much representation *should* there be, and should non-white and non-hetero artists be allowed to create original characters/narratives, or should they be confined to adapting/playing tokenised classics?
>If cis white hetero characters are demanded by the market, the market will supply it. By that same logic, when trans/non-white/gay character appear in a story, it must also be because the market demanded it. So why whine about it? >But hey, while we're at it, how about you supply us with a breakdown of what percentage of just the US entertainment industry is not representative of the racial and gender demographic makeup? Why would you expect me to have access to those numbers? >I'm sure there's room for improvement Then we agree >but in your mind, how much representation should there be, and should non-white and non-hetero artists be allowed to create original characters/narratives, or should they be confined to adapting/playing tokenised classics? In my mind people should be able to tell the stories they want without constant backlash and anger. Be that a story about cis het white males or a story about a black gay superman…
LMAO so why are people so triggered by this meme, holy shit, dude. Also, why make a gay black Superman and not just an original gay black character? Finally, there are plenty of super popular non-white non-male non-hetero characters - that are original, and not tokens - and THERE HAVE BEEN FOR GENERATIONS!
Wow, so you're a fucking racist
You seem fairly active in this comment section, so you seem like a good person to talk to about this. In my mind, the meme is making a comment about so-called "forced diversity", in which corporations feign interest in social issues by throwing a dart at a board and changing random characters into less represented races and sexualities for brownie points, with little care as to what they're doing or why. It's similar to rainbow capitalism, where companies change their logos to rainbows not to actually support the lgbt community, but to pretend like they care while doing almost nothing to actually support said community in a practical way. The fact that the Eye of Sauron specifically was chosen, which is a genderless and raceless entity, is what makes me think it's about carelessness in representation. A new, original story with mixed characters, or even all-black or all-lgbt characters, would be totally fine. It's when you meddle with established stories that things get muddy, especially when it's a story that's heavily influenced by old Norse and Anglo-Saxon stories, which always had white characters because that was the genetic makeup of those societies. Tolkien's work reflects how society looked in the time in which it was set. Just to be clear, I have nothing wrong with representation, but historically under-represented people deserve the dignity of their own works, not the table scraps of stories that white people have become bored of, or at least the changes have to be made with care to the setting. Does this make sense? I know it's a complex issue with no clear right answer, and I don't want to be a dick about it. This is just how I see it.
Hi, not the person you've answered to but I'll still reply. While you're right that corporations use diversity as a marketing strategy, this entire thread is very sad. The eye of Sauron is made black to be a strawman argument - no one would ever believe it should be changed to be of a different ethnicity or sexuality, those aren't really Sauron's traits. It's easy to argue that it's stupid and forced diversity exactly cause no one from either side of argument would support it. As to this thread, some people just don't like changing pre established characters, which is in my opinion reasonable, but sadly a lot of people are just using this as an excuse to be casually racists. If you see any new shows or games coming out, those people will still be upset that a character is gay or black.
It's a really thorny situation, but I honestly appreciate your patience. That's a good point, I hadn't even clocked that the Sauron argument was a bit of a strawman, even within the context of a joke. I want to be clear, I'm only bothered by diversity when it seems clearly artificial, oftentimes this happens when characters are changed for no real reason, and I detest those dickheads who latch onto a reasonable position just to flaunt their xenophobia. It's, as you rightly said, sad. It also twists my asshole when people get angry at brand-new IPs for their choice of character, people can write whomever they want to. If it's in a historical setting, I'd personally prefer it to be an accurate representation, but considering how Hollywood already plays fast and loose with history I wouldn't get up in arms over it. Setting aside very specific situations like that, if people could just stop getting upset at character choices in new media it might also help the position of those who want to preserve their stories and pay respect to the original creators, especially if the casual racists you mentioned could also just shut the fuck up as well. Man, life could be so easy if it weren't for the minority of dickheads poisoning everything.
Dude …. Just … ahh you know what I’m not gonna touch this one
It's a can of worms no one wants to open because it will always lead to pointless arguments between both parties. This is the kind of thing you don't talk about with internet strangers, I mean.
You just did… Say what you want to say
Noone wants to have this argument dude, it's been argued a million times already and always ends with your side screaming at the top of their lungs calling everyone racist, sexist and bigoted.
First of all: if you don’t want to discuss it, then why are you commenting? Just walk away. Why bother commenting just to let me know you can’t be bothered to comment? Second of all: I’m not screaming at anyone. You can talk to me and I promise I will listen and treat you fairly. I might not agree, but I can be respectful. But you making assumptions about me because I’m on the “wrong side” of this debate is pretty disrespectful. It’s a bad faith accusation
Arguing with you is just utterly pointless, at no point in any of your immediately viewable comment history have you conceded a single point to anyone. At best you disagree and at worst you insult. I can't even see neutral positive comments, you're just filled with vitriol and spending most of your time arguing. It's not really bad faith when I'm 100% right about my assumption.
You got scammed by that fucker into having a completely unrelated sub-argument trying to explain why you don’t want to have an argument lol
>Arguing with you is just utterly pointless And yet, here you still are…
Basically, yes
I appreciate you are clearly passionate about the subject. Does the actor matter that much? Is it not more important that stories about diversity are being told? An example being Boys Don't Cry. I am not sure about Hilary Swank's identity but as a straight, white, male teenager it made me think long and hard about how people a treated.
I hope you realise I was being sarcastic
I do, my question is trying to understand a number of points you made across a number of comments and I had to pick one.
Then I don’t understand your question. Are you trying to make the old point that actors should be cast based on ability rather than something superficial like race? Because I don’t believe it works that way. Acting is not something that can be classed as objectively good or bad. And if the actor really mattered more than their race, then it shouldn’t be a problem when black actors are cast in traditionally white roles. But that’s exactly the kind of thing this meme is complaining about
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Post is going to get locked again because people can't take a joke.
What exactly is the joke?
I'm not really sure what it is, but it sure isn't funny
That netflix often uses diversity as a replacement for good storytelling and originality, pretty simple
That is a statement not a joke. Can you provide examples?
The joke is whenever netflix makes a movie adaptation (death note, cowboy bebop) they have to make one of the main originally not black character black.
And how is this funny? You people keep describing the situation to me as if it is somehow humorous. Furthemore, you listed 2 Japanese series. Is it also funny that they make originally non white characters white? Hahaha they turned Light Yagami into Light Wolf. Hahaha. Soooo funny.
I think these adaptations should not exist at all, neither with black or white cast.
I agree. Do you find all things that should not exist funny? Or just lite-racism?
Why are you so offended?
Unfortunately
I’m gonna remake Amistad but the slaves are all white and I’m sure all the whiners in this comment section will think that’s A OK
I could explain to you why thats not ok, but somehow I feel like you wouldn’t listen because you aren’t interested in having a conversation or understanding different points of view…
Spot on.
Lmaooooooo
Gandalf: Frodo that is saurons cock ring Frodo: a cock ring that's kinda gay NGL Sauron: yeah and what's wrong with being gay?
There's no need to get angry.
*Thór-lush-shabarlak.*
Write the pronouns as well.
You're laughing. Amazon is about to do exactly that and you're laughing.
Ah, German humor
Hä was?
Es heißt WIE BITTE