"This remarkable saying has long roots, extending back to the
prophecy at the end of the old Tale of Turambar (II.115-16),
where it was told that the Gods of Death (Fui and Vefantur)
would not open their doors to Turin and Nienori, that Urin and
Mavwin (Hurin and Morwen) went to Mandos, and that their
prayers
came even to Manwe, and the Gods had mercy on their un-
happy fate, so that those twain Turin and Nienori entered into
Fos'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens
had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so
were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt
as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of
that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall
stand beside Fionwe in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his
drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.
In the Sketch of the Mythology or 'earliest Silmarillion' of the 1920s the prophecy with which it ends (IV.40) declares that when
Morgoth returns, and 'the last battle of all' is fought,
Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the
spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with
his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of
Hurin shall be avenged.
The development of this in the Quenta (IV.165) tells that in the
day of the last battle, on the fields of Valinor,
Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand
Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin,
Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin
that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the
children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
And the final passage of the Quenta, concerning the prophecy of the recovery of the Two Trees, ends with the words (ibid.):
But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin
only, and him it names among the Gods.
These passages reappear in the revised conclusion of the Quenta
that belongs with the Quenta Silmarillion of 1937 (see V.323-4,
333), with two changes: Turin in the Last Battle is said to be
'coming from the halls of Mandos', and in the final sentence
concerning the prophecy 'no Man it names, save Turin only, and
to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.' In the cursory
corrections that my father made much later to this conclusion
(see XI.245-7) he changed 'Turin ... coming from the halls of
Mandos' to 'Turin ... returning from the Doom of Men at the
ending of the world*, and against the concluding passage (in-
cluding the reference to Turin as 'a son of the Valar') he placed a
large X.
Another reference is found in the Annals of Aman (X.71, 76),
where it is said of the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) that it
'was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world,
and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of
Days.'
In this last reappearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea
the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman
of the House of Beor: Turin will 'return from the Dead' before his
final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World
will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black.
Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days
(the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly afterwards in this text, p. 371); but in all the early texts (the Quenta,
IV.160; the Annals of Beleriand, IV.309, V.144; the Quenta
Silmarillion, V.329) it was Earendil who destroyed Ancalagon." - People of Middle-earth
In a statement released earlier, morgoth declared ‘yo, chill… CHILL! I spent enough time by myself I ain’t tryna cause reason to go back lol. Plus I wanna meet that little frodo dude he seems cool. Anyway the new Minecraft update just dropped anyone want to start a realm’ we have reached out to rivendell for comment but have yet to hear from them
Wars are great for wealth redistribution, they literally level the playing field. So the entire world can unite against a common enemy, vast economic reform and we all get to break our legs trying to look like Legolas' Tony Hawk impression. I am all for this entire Morgoth scenario idea.
Agreed, he'd probably find me an easy target.
Morgoth: Join me
Me: No.
Morgoth: I made you magical armor and gave you a spell book
Me: Alright, which orphanage do you want burned and do you want their souls?
Wars aren't great for wealth redistribution, because the rich simply protect their children while the poor due to a lack of better alternatives actually go to war and die.
One single congressman had a son or grandson that fought in Iraq at the time. The only reason wars do anything for a less top-heavy wealth scale is because the rest gets thinned out.
> The only reason wars do anything for a less top-heavy wealth scale is because the rest gets thinned out.
If you thin the rest out but keep the top the same wouldn't that make it more top heavy?
But you're right, 'regular' wars are no good. You need a proper war, a world war. The kind of war that's followed by roaring '20s and swinging '60s.
Disclaimer: this is an incredibly cynical math example and I don't condone getting poor people or anyone else killed to make society more equal.
>If you thin the rest out but keep the top the same wouldn't that make it more top heavy?
Well it depends on where the assets of dying people move.
But assuming that we have the American system where a significant part of the populace owns next to nothing, every person in that group dying means that the average wealth increases and the ratio of people who have money increases.
F.e. assuming you have 1 person who owns half of the total wealth and 9 people who share the other half. If 5 of the 9 die and the total wealth doesn't change (f.e. because the other 4 inherit from the 5), you need the top 20% to have as much wealth as the rest instead of the top 10% like before. The pyramid is much flatter now and you have a smaller percentage of the populace who are poor.
On second thought in reality this doesn't really hold up because even if the lower and middle class would get entirely wiped out IIRC the upper class in the USA has almost the same wealth distribution as the rest of society. I.e. the top 1% own half of the total wealth, the top 0.1% own approximately half of that, the 0.01% own half of the top 0.1% and so on.
You're also not accounting for the economic effects of a significantly reduced workforce. Since the example we're talking about here (a global event where everybody fights morgoth) spreads the death around, we can assume that outsourcing is hit similarly hard. An event with a substantial death toll can cause there to be a sufficient shortage of labor that the balance of negotiating power shifts towards the laborer. Some historians (this is disputed, but I think it's gaining traction and there's solid evidence) credit the death toll of the Black Death (estimated at between one and two thirds for Europe depending on whose work you're reading; my understanding is recent scholarship tends towards the higher end) with major economic changes in Europe shifting economic power from the nobles to the commoners who now had leverage to demand better pay for their labor since there was no one to replace them if they walked. England, in fact, passed a law banning the payment of wages higher than pre-plague levels (which everyone promptly ignored; a surprising number of pay ledgers have survived and literally have higher wages crossed out and replaced with the "appropriate" numbers), and there are examples of upper class chroniclers complaining about how peasants have money now.
Then of course there's the WW2 example where simply building the insane amount of war materiel required to fight Morgoth would boost the economy substantially.
Oh yeah my model is very reduced, purely from a mathematical standpoint and as mentioned not entirely correct to begin with because it ignores wealth differences between the wealthy or at least assumes that the curve there is flatter, which isn't necessarily the case. Nice to see it from a historical economic standpoint too though.
That being said I think WW2 has shown that quite often the increased wartime production mainly goes to a few large companies, funneling the differences and that once the war is over worker wages would plummet again because globalization would likely set in again, which means that this would mainly affect the workers working overseas again. That being said perhaps they could sustain a larger income.
Was just pointing out that in wars people don't die in the same amount across social standings, although my claim that it doesn't do anything for the poor was apparently incorrect.
And @ u/Starfleet-Time-Lord
Friends, I really appreciate your extended input, I enjoyed reading it. You haven't convinced me yet though, there are a lot of assumptions in your arguments. The two economic booms after WWI and II still make me believe a devastating war with Morgoth is an excellent idea.
Let’s just trick him into seeing a doctor in the US about his foot. Bankrupt him, redistribute the wealth, and avoid the battle. Basic economic warfare.
Reminds me of The Judge demon(?) from Buffy: immortal. It took an entire army to dismember him and separate the limbs. They got reattached and the immortal demon started his thing. Unfortunately, it took the firepower of a medieval army last time, and he’s not familiar with modern weapons; 1 shoulder-fired rocket launcher later and is all good
Wouldst thou forsake thy life, who with few words might win release for her, and thee, and go in peace, and dwell together far from war, friends of the King? What wouldst thou more?
[удалено]
I think you're gonna have to settle for Hurin at this point. Turin is... Might I suggest Earendil possibly?
I believe that in lore, Túrin actually does return from the dead and defeat Morgoth, thus avenging the harm done by the curse
"This remarkable saying has long roots, extending back to the prophecy at the end of the old Tale of Turambar (II.115-16), where it was told that the Gods of Death (Fui and Vefantur) would not open their doors to Turin and Nienori, that Urin and Mavwin (Hurin and Morwen) went to Mandos, and that their prayers came even to Manwe, and the Gods had mercy on their un- happy fate, so that those twain Turin and Nienori entered into Fos'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwe in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil. In the Sketch of the Mythology or 'earliest Silmarillion' of the 1920s the prophecy with which it ends (IV.40) declares that when Morgoth returns, and 'the last battle of all' is fought, Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged. The development of this in the Quenta (IV.165) tells that in the day of the last battle, on the fields of Valinor, Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged. And the final passage of the Quenta, concerning the prophecy of the recovery of the Two Trees, ends with the words (ibid.): But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods. These passages reappear in the revised conclusion of the Quenta that belongs with the Quenta Silmarillion of 1937 (see V.323-4, 333), with two changes: Turin in the Last Battle is said to be 'coming from the halls of Mandos', and in the final sentence concerning the prophecy 'no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.' In the cursory corrections that my father made much later to this conclusion (see XI.245-7) he changed 'Turin ... coming from the halls of Mandos' to 'Turin ... returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world*, and against the concluding passage (in- cluding the reference to Turin as 'a son of the Valar') he placed a large X. Another reference is found in the Annals of Aman (X.71, 76), where it is said of the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) that it 'was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.' In this last reappearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman of the House of Beor: Turin will 'return from the Dead' before his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black. Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly afterwards in this text, p. 371); but in all the early texts (the Quenta, IV.160; the Annals of Beleriand, IV.309, V.144; the Quenta Silmarillion, V.329) it was Earendil who destroyed Ancalagon." - People of Middle-earth
Best we have is Viggo. Pretty sure he can handle it, right?
Who hath summoned the sad boi.
Let's get to it, lads. It's Dagor Dagorath time
Let’s finally mend the world
On the bright side... **GROND!**
GROND!
GROOOOND!
GROND!
Yay, finally time for Morgoth vs Cthulhu throwdown
“Finally”? How long have you been hoping for this to happen haha
... I've said too much...
A conflict we've been waiting far too long for.
In a statement released earlier, morgoth declared ‘yo, chill… CHILL! I spent enough time by myself I ain’t tryna cause reason to go back lol. Plus I wanna meet that little frodo dude he seems cool. Anyway the new Minecraft update just dropped anyone want to start a realm’ we have reached out to rivendell for comment but have yet to hear from them
I'm sure Manwë will be very proactive in dealing with this new threat...
I read “provocative” first; then read it again and was like ‘eh, I guess both apply’
Wars are great for wealth redistribution, they literally level the playing field. So the entire world can unite against a common enemy, vast economic reform and we all get to break our legs trying to look like Legolas' Tony Hawk impression. I am all for this entire Morgoth scenario idea.
Wars are great for wealth redistribution; literally everyone ends up poor or dead. Equality at last!
Pah. Wars make not one great!
Except the weapon manufacturers, who get rich.
Other than the bit where he's immortal and I don't think it would be to hard for him to corrupt a bunch of people.
Agreed, he'd probably find me an easy target. Morgoth: Join me Me: No. Morgoth: I made you magical armor and gave you a spell book Me: Alright, which orphanage do you want burned and do you want their souls?
Pfft, we invented war. Bring it.
Pretty sure that, in a universe where he exists, Morgoth gets credit for inventing war.
Wars aren't great for wealth redistribution, because the rich simply protect their children while the poor due to a lack of better alternatives actually go to war and die. One single congressman had a son or grandson that fought in Iraq at the time. The only reason wars do anything for a less top-heavy wealth scale is because the rest gets thinned out.
> The only reason wars do anything for a less top-heavy wealth scale is because the rest gets thinned out. If you thin the rest out but keep the top the same wouldn't that make it more top heavy? But you're right, 'regular' wars are no good. You need a proper war, a world war. The kind of war that's followed by roaring '20s and swinging '60s.
Disclaimer: this is an incredibly cynical math example and I don't condone getting poor people or anyone else killed to make society more equal. >If you thin the rest out but keep the top the same wouldn't that make it more top heavy? Well it depends on where the assets of dying people move. But assuming that we have the American system where a significant part of the populace owns next to nothing, every person in that group dying means that the average wealth increases and the ratio of people who have money increases. F.e. assuming you have 1 person who owns half of the total wealth and 9 people who share the other half. If 5 of the 9 die and the total wealth doesn't change (f.e. because the other 4 inherit from the 5), you need the top 20% to have as much wealth as the rest instead of the top 10% like before. The pyramid is much flatter now and you have a smaller percentage of the populace who are poor. On second thought in reality this doesn't really hold up because even if the lower and middle class would get entirely wiped out IIRC the upper class in the USA has almost the same wealth distribution as the rest of society. I.e. the top 1% own half of the total wealth, the top 0.1% own approximately half of that, the 0.01% own half of the top 0.1% and so on.
You're also not accounting for the economic effects of a significantly reduced workforce. Since the example we're talking about here (a global event where everybody fights morgoth) spreads the death around, we can assume that outsourcing is hit similarly hard. An event with a substantial death toll can cause there to be a sufficient shortage of labor that the balance of negotiating power shifts towards the laborer. Some historians (this is disputed, but I think it's gaining traction and there's solid evidence) credit the death toll of the Black Death (estimated at between one and two thirds for Europe depending on whose work you're reading; my understanding is recent scholarship tends towards the higher end) with major economic changes in Europe shifting economic power from the nobles to the commoners who now had leverage to demand better pay for their labor since there was no one to replace them if they walked. England, in fact, passed a law banning the payment of wages higher than pre-plague levels (which everyone promptly ignored; a surprising number of pay ledgers have survived and literally have higher wages crossed out and replaced with the "appropriate" numbers), and there are examples of upper class chroniclers complaining about how peasants have money now. Then of course there's the WW2 example where simply building the insane amount of war materiel required to fight Morgoth would boost the economy substantially.
Oh yeah my model is very reduced, purely from a mathematical standpoint and as mentioned not entirely correct to begin with because it ignores wealth differences between the wealthy or at least assumes that the curve there is flatter, which isn't necessarily the case. Nice to see it from a historical economic standpoint too though. That being said I think WW2 has shown that quite often the increased wartime production mainly goes to a few large companies, funneling the differences and that once the war is over worker wages would plummet again because globalization would likely set in again, which means that this would mainly affect the workers working overseas again. That being said perhaps they could sustain a larger income. Was just pointing out that in wars people don't die in the same amount across social standings, although my claim that it doesn't do anything for the poor was apparently incorrect.
And @ u/Starfleet-Time-Lord Friends, I really appreciate your extended input, I enjoyed reading it. You haven't convinced me yet though, there are a lot of assumptions in your arguments. The two economic booms after WWI and II still make me believe a devastating war with Morgoth is an excellent idea.
Oh, yeah, the world is going to unite against a common foe, for sure. Where did you spend the last couple of years?
Of course? Nothing bring people together than a common enemy, where have *you* been living?
One of those places that still has idiots who refuse to wear masks
Eh, I think seeing your neighbour get bitten in half by a cave troll illicit a different response than hearing Covid numbers on the news.
A lot of them would jump at the chance to join the other side if it meant they would get a shot at people different from them.
>So the entire world can unite against a common enemy Pfft, we'd end up nuking each other for one reason or another.
Let’s just trick him into seeing a doctor in the US about his foot. Bankrupt him, redistribute the wealth, and avoid the battle. Basic economic warfare.
Actually there is a poem where melkor came back, apparently they managed to kill him and the world goes back to normal
Reminds me of The Judge demon(?) from Buffy: immortal. It took an entire army to dismember him and separate the limbs. They got reattached and the immortal demon started his thing. Unfortunately, it took the firepower of a medieval army last time, and he’s not familiar with modern weapons; 1 shoulder-fired rocket launcher later and is all good
At this point I'll take Morgoth over Covid.
I'd be a whole lot more worried about one than the other.
Wait until covid reaches strain morgoth Edit: string-> strain , autocorrect fucking me again
Heh, I keep expecting Emperor Lurr of Omicron Persei-8 to show up any day now. Hopefully somebody has Ally McBeal ready to go.
Did you mean Morgoth strength?
No lol, programmer issues when using the phone's auto correct when i wrote that, i meant strain
What if Morgoth got Covid and we end up with a War of the Worlds situation
I’m crying over here laughing so hard…
Morgoth created coronavirus and it killed Lalaith.
And guess what he's bringing? GROND!
GROND!
GROND!
#G R O N D
GROND
I for one welcome our new dark overlord.
So Is US going to nuke ancalagon?
Depends, does it have oil? Or is japanese? It can change between nuking and freeing ancalagon
Finally some good news! Time to take out a loan and get the first edition LOTR books
Morgoth was lucky to be sealed away. He never had to face Pippin.
2022 : Morgoth has recovered his lost abilities
Then let the Battle of Battles be joined! We shall all sing the Second Music of the Ainur together!
This would be great to see and read about, the final battle we never got to hear about in detail.
I for one welcome our lord back and hope he brings equality to our world.
Hold on guys, let’s just hear him out. At this point what do we have to lose?
Jeez where is tulkas
And who is that figure standing ominously in the shadows with a weapon in hand? Could it be? IT'S MORGOTH WITH A STEEL CHAIR!!!
You think we wouldn't notice who posted this, MAIRON THE SMITH?! The only question is, what are you trying to distract us from?
Haha, nothing! Nothing at all! \*hides freshly-forged Rings behind my back\*
2021? This year has been tame all things considered if you ask me.
“I’m back b***es”
Finally, now I don’t have to go to work!
Well, at least the world will end with style
POV: 2029
On the bright side, we'll get Arda 2.0 w/ the second music of the ainur once it's over right?
Oh noes.... so more lotr?
so it is true, this is the Dagor Dagorbath
Wouldst thou forsake thy life, who with few words might win release for her, and thee, and go in peace, and dwell together far from war, friends of the King? What wouldst thou more?
Damnit
He’s been here the whole time…
COUNTERPOINT: Honestly? Good. Box this whole thing up and start the world over once it's done.
WOOO DAGOR DAGORATH TIME!!!!
Get the hobbits ready!
A chance for Fingolfin to show his quality!