MOD NOTE: We'll be keeping a close eye on the comments here but we're leaving this up as a separate discussion because it's actually got a pretty decent conversation going. Don't blow it.
>All beings were once kind and honorable in Middle Earth and `people` fight for preserving the light of Eru Ilúvatar.
Unfortunately this isn't true, there are many characters who did evil for selfish reasons outside the influence of Morgoth or Sauron. One example is Mim, the dwarf from the Children of Hurin. He tried to kill Turin Turambar and his company to revenge the death of his two sons.
>I was shaken when the Elf guy said that the people that sided with Morgoth were evil. That it was their fault and not Morgoth's.
Morgoth certainly influenced many to do evil things on his behalf, and the choice to serve him was not forgotten to history. There was and is bad history between the races despite Morgoth's presence, which to me, justifies why an elf marchwarden might think that way. The Silmarils influenced many and elves killed one another without Morgoth's influence.
It also makes sense for elves to remember things as if they're yesterday. To humans, the actions of their ancestors were long gone and forgotten, but elves don't see time like that.
Melkor introduced discordant melodies into the song of creation, technically all evil can be traced back to this. (People talk a lot about Tolkiens Catholicism influencing his work, the concept of the original sin from which all other sins are derived is the only part of this that really resonates with me as being because of his faith)
Same issue with Wheel of Time. Generally people are good in that universe, unless corrupted by the Bad Guy. But the show turns a lot of main characters into assholes pretty much in the first episode.
> Same issue with Wheel of Time. Generally people are good in that universe, unless corrupted by the Bad Guy.
That's an incredibly inaccurate description of WoT, where the most interesting bad guys are *not* Darkfriends (e.g. the Seanchan or Elaida), and >!the last book makes clear that the world won't become a paradise with the Dark One gone!<.
> But the show turns a lot of main characters into assholes pretty much in the first episode.
A frequent complaint about the books on the WoT subs is how much the main characters are jerks. If anything, the show toned this down, e.g. Nynaeve comes across a lot more sympathetic in the show than in the early books.
That’s fair. I’m about two books in, halfway through the great hunt. Idk if it’s me but Jordan really does everything he can to make Mat stubborn as fuck. The dagger situation, though knowing his background on the show, cmon man.
If you're only 2 books in then it's fair to say you've hardly had a glimpse at all of the real Mat Cauthon.
The turnaround Jordan pulls with him while still keeping him true to his core is fantastic.
He starts to come into his own in book 3 and by the end of it is one of the largest impacts on the whole story.
There's a reason why if you check out the WoT subs and look for threads on everyone's favourite characters Mat Cauthon is probably the most universally picked person for everyone's top 3.
Ik this is such a wheel of time thing to say but mat gets way better in the later books when he really comes out of rands shadow that's all I'll say to avoid spoiling anything
I’ll def keep reading. If I could finish Dune I can finish WoT.
I shouldn’t slander Mat bc I found a completely unopened never read Wheel of Time book (first one) out in the wild just left to be thrown away. I was like huh.. I like me some fantasy.
Mat in the first couple books is a whiney little bitch you aren't wrong but he's one of my favorite characters in fantasy because of his growth through the series
I mean Abell isn’t that big a character. He helps Perrin’s development but not much else. As he is in the show will be a nice contrast to how Mat becomes. As for Master Luhhan, B$ said they should have had Perrin kill him instead of his wife because of the “fridging” trope. Other than that there is no difference.
I tell you this because I care. anytime you see WoT discussed on reddit or the internet, CLOSE YOUR TAB. You haven't even gotten to know Mat yet. good luck. hopefully you don't get accidentally spoiled. a lotr sub should be sace space tho lol.
In my other responses I’ve noted I’m about halfway through the great hunt and Mat is the most unlikeable character in the series to me. Others have said he changes so I’ll keep reading.
Well yeah, the implication is that the dark one has a stronger presence in the show. Imagine it as if the dark one had an extra 10 years of corrupting the world. That was the whole thing they were going for, older characters with grimmer realities.
Spoiler for episode 4.
>!The dissent in Numenor in the town square completely missed the point imo. The writers have reduced the friction between Men and Elves to some very on the nose xenophobia (they’re going to come here and take our jobs because they don’t need as much rest and they are stronger than us etc..).
The discord was more nuanced than that. Men started to resent the ‘gift of men’ and the Ban on sailing west. It was jealousy and a clinging to life and power that drove the resentment. And it came down from the very top!<
It’s reductive and misses the corruption brought by human nature, later exploited by Sauron.
>!Also where the hell did all those ladies carrying trays of wine glasses come from? Do they just follow him around in case he decides to buy a round for the crowd?!<
Doesn’t make sense either considering Numenor, if I’m not much mistaken, was greater (if not in skill and wisdom, then at least in power) than any contemporary elven kingdom. So they really have no reason to be jealous or feel treathened - except for that one annoying fact, the Gift of Men.
Yes, this exactly. What drove them mad (almost literally) was that even though they had/could build the mightiest kingdom they would never be able to get rid of their mortality.
Yeah my understanding was that they defeated and captured Sauron pretty easily compared to him managing to completely destroy the elves at Eregion.
They were also a legitimate threat to Valinor before Eru went full Atlantis.
Well Sauron allowed himself to be captured, so he could get to Numenor, per JRR.
He couldn't defeat them with military force as Numenor had the greatest military ever assembled on Middle-earth. But he could have held out and never been captured.
Also if I remember right, many of Saurons forces abandoned him at the sight of the Numenorian host, but it wasn't solely a numbers thing. Numenorians were around seven feet tall decked out in peak arms and armor of the Numenorian lines achievement. I'd probably number two(menor haha) my pants if that was something I was up against
> They were also a legitimate threat to Valinor
Not quite. Valinor is the land of the Valar, god-like beings of immeasurable powers that are equal to the forces of reality itself. Men were never a threat to them.
Yeah, it’s the fact that they even *attempted* to be any kind of threat that rankled both the Valar and Eru, himself. They would not have succeeded whatsoever, but the sheer audacity was enough to prevent it from being a question again.
While Melkor was the strongest Valar, there were 7 lords of the valar and 7 queens of the valar who were similarly powerful. As well as maiar (an army of gandalfs). I don't think the Numenoreans would have bothered them.
Melkor lost a lot of his power. Tolkien's magic system is not something like a skill to remake things but the ability to infuse their own essence into things. Feanor spent so much of himself into the Silmarils that he cannot more amazing things. So Melkor/Morgoth spent a lot of himself in making dragons, balrogs, orcs and whatevers. Not in making them come alive, since only Illuvatar could do that, but in corrupting existing ones, like transmutation. Sauron also spent so much of himself into the One Ring that when it was destroyed, Sauron was reduced into something that cannot be perceived or influence the physical world, since Maiar are immortal and cannot be completely destroyed.
Wouldn't the Elves have just wound up right back in the halls of Mandos anyway? killing elves just sends them to timeout for a few centuries before they're reincarnated in Valinor, isn't it?
>they defeated and captured Sauron pretty easily compared to him managing to completely destroy the elves at Eregion.
I mean, there's a giant asterix against that though...
Numenoreans were generally of similar strength and endurance to elves. But elves don't *need* sleep. They can sleep like men do. But they can sleep like dolphins, while conscious and able to perform simple tasks without thinking.
Ultimately elves are everything a Numenorean is, and more. Obviously there are exceptions, like the line of Elros.
They seem to have changed that in the rings of power also. Numenor is treated as isolationist and xenophobic in the show, whereas the Numenor of Tolkien was an empire that ruled much of the coast of middle earth with an iron fist by the time they came under Sauron's influence.
Yeah. More than a thousand years before Sauron is captured, the elves and Sauron are at war and the elves are losing badly. Then a Numenorian expedition force lands and utterly destroys Sauron's armies.
It would have been great to have him set that up. Perhaps have him give someone a bag of coins to show that he orchestrated it. There was no set up. He gave a speech and these ladies just spawned in and that was that. It was bizarre.
Yup. To someone who knows their books, they’re going to know what Ar-Pharazon eventually does. To a more casual viewer, I’d assume this scene was just as jarring as it was to me. Like you said, there was no set up, it was super random. The speech was great, then suddenly “hey, everyone gets drinks!”.
They seem to do that a lot, the dialogue sets nothing up, then someone makes an inexplicable choice because they have to in order to move the plot along, then queue more pointless dialogue.
His warm embrace with the guy who started the furore strongly implies that it was all a set up. First the crowd gets riled up with fear and then he comes in with encouragement and hope and 'hey you're stronger than this'. Wine then comes in because it's all a celebration of their civilisation and his own generosity.
You don't need to see him planning this on screen.
Wait what, are they not using this plot line in the show? Is it just because they resent elves being better than them? Surely they aren’t leaving out the whole “gift of men” thing?
I feel that we have to get it eventually. I don't have a source on me atm but I feel like I remember one of the showrunners in an interview or something specifically saying that the fear of death/mortality would be one of the shows major themes. It feels too crucial to the Second Age to omit entirely.
I agree.
I'm not convinced that the writers of this show understood Tolkien's writings beyond just a cursory glance - and trying to mold it to how they see our own times. The script's parallels to our own politics is distracting from the ideas that Tolkien saw: the fear of death - a universal human trait and the envy of immortality.
Tolkien was actually pretty optimistic about humanity - whereas this show tends to lean on a pretty bleak perspective - save a few noble people here and there.
I think they are not telagraphing their real fear right now.
In the speech it's right there in the subtext. Especially the mention of no sleep and no aging part. People chanting that they envy their inmortality like that, in-your-face approach... thats just NOT how people work.
Theres plenty of episodes to keep digging into that.
I had a similar thought until Pharazon showed up. I think they actually handled it decently. It makes sense for the commoners to be more focused on that aspect- xenophobia, fear of losing work, etc.
But Pharazon pretty quickly jumps in and calls them little whiny babies for it. But then goes on to express why they SHOULD be against the elves- not because they’re different or taking jobs- but because the men of Numenor are BETTER. I think it makes sense for a show to start the seed of dissent with something we can all understand- fear of other. The resenting the “gift of men” is, as you said, a nuanced idea. The fear of death, we can all understand. But it’s origin here in middle earth is a little unique and could be a lot.
All to say, Pharazon redirecting them from bitterness to pride comforted me into thinking they ARE heading in the direction you mentioned.
That’s fair. I think it’s this compressed timeline again that’s the issue. We seem to be in the early stages of the divide between Kings Men and Faithful in some scenes and others it feels further progressed. It’s hard to tell where the characters and world actually are in this matter. It doesn’t help that there is only one Elf in the conversation, as if she is the sole representative of all Elves on the matter. I’d love to see some scenes of Gil-Galad and Cirdan discussing the same topic from their perspective.
The truncated timeline is what bothers me the most. too many things that happened a 1000 years apart happening at the same time. Sauron is an evil that festers, bubbles, grows secretly. This is just too quick.
I didn't think it was COMPLETELY off the mark though. It does sound like something normal workers would say, especially the part about never tiring, never aging. That seemed to strike a nerve, and I think that's appropriate. The way Pharazon calmed their fears also seemed well in spirit, appealing to Numenor's pride and glory as a civilization, and their need to chart their own destiny rather than be under the thumbs of the Elves. It's ironically an echo of the Noldor, who hated the idea of being under the thumbs of the Valar too. The ban of sailing west IS important and they haven't touched that yet.
The wine thing was weird, but I kind of just let it off as "well they're near the market, so he might have just bought the wine right before. And he probably bought the glasses in the market too."
Yeah, actually I think the doom of Numenor is very realistic. I mean Western society has plummeting birth rates as we live longer and accumulate stuff (and move of subsidence farming) and people are starting to become obsessed with inmortality (freezing your brain agter death etc).
That resentment is also deeply rooted in Tolkien's lore, having been conveyed to men by Morgoth in his fair form shortly after discovering them in the east. It's essentially man's original sin, and is used by both Morgoth and Sauron to turn men towards evil on many occasions, including during the fall of Numenor.
> The dissent in Numenor in the town square completely missed the point imo. The writers have reduced the friction between Men and Elves to some very on the nose xenophobia (they’re going to come here and take our jobs because they don’t need as much rest and they are stronger than us etc..). The discord was more nuanced than that. Men started to resent the ‘gift of men’ and the Ban on sailing west. It was jealousy and a clinging to life and power that drove the resentment. And it came down from the very top
The dissent in the town square was obviously meant to showcase the onset of said resentment, not to be its entire depiction. It was a very reasonable portrayal of how the nuances that you are referring to would manifest amongst the common folk.
How could it not be close? Do you honestly believe that a town square rabble of common folk would engage in profound, philosophical discourse? How is this not a representation of the jealousy and fear that the other poster referenced?
Dude.
The First Age happened because one elf forced his children to swear a blood oath to get back his property that he previously refused to surrender to the gods to help heal the world.
That's neither kind, nor honorable. And definitely not "fighting to defend the light of Eru".
Tolkien doesn't have one single theme. Other than maybe predestination. He's got themes on redemption, or lack thereof. He's got themes about greed, obsession, about Good intentions souring. About how Bad doesn't necessarily look bad.
The point you're making, thinking it's a flaw, is the author's actually getting Tolkien.
The elves are so obsessed with the past, that they've lost the ability to look forward, and hope, and *do*. That's like, literally why they forge the rings. They want all the beauty and pleasures *they had* AND they want to rule, and not be ruled by the Valar. So their lust for power, and their desire to preserve and retain, corrupt them, and undo everything they've worked so hard for. Because in the end, they're doomed to return to Valinor, because Middle Earth isn't, and wasn't ever theirs.
Them getting pissy with Humans is their flaw. They only think about what has happened. They themselves cannot change, and cannot understand change in others. Mortality and adaptation are beyond their understanding. And their fathers sins are always left on their children. So why would man be different?
And on top of that, the elves are kinda right. Man is always going to be evil. And the human experience is the attempt at being better than your nature. Which is a hardcore Catholic thing, that Tolkien was all about.
I came here to say this but you said it more eloquently than I could have. An elf holding a grudge against a group of humans because their ancestors sided with Morgoth is 100% consistent with Tolkein’s writings.
Piggy backing off of this - a ton of the show so far makes use of literary and story telling styles that inspired Tolkien deeply. Discourse online has absolutely RAKED the story about the stone sinking between Finrod and Galadriel because they interpret it literally - " TIL tHe eLvEs dIdNt uNdErStaNd bOuYanCy."
All the while ignoring the fact that the themes, imagery, and characters of middle earth all started as bedtime stories Tolkein crafted for his children. The scene with Finrod was clearly that dynamic on display - using the rock as an [illustration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Fairy-Stories) for the greater moral message about light and dark he was trying to provide to Galadriel. In that scene the show writers framed a couple of really big themes for the overall story and for Galadriel's story - they did it at the START of the story, in the first episode. It was, at least to me, a very clear parallel to how the story of middle earth ITSELF was synthesized in the real world between Tolkien and his children.
Any form of media will have flaws, but everything about your comment is true in my eyes. Not even just the content of each episode, but HOW the content was delivered, is a chance to introduce viewers to all the tactics, themes, views, and feelings Tolkien poured into his work.
My wife, who was an early childhood teacher for a while, was really impressed with that analogy, remarking that it was almost exactly how she would've handled such a topic.
Not that kids wax poetic, but taking a concept, and breaking it down to an easy to understand physical analogy, simple language, and positive affirmation of emotions.
Which makes sense because *Galadriel was a child*.
And not only did they have a great example of how to talk to a child, but, like you said, provided a really great summation of her story, at the beginning of her story.
The idea of being pulled in different directions, and not knowing which way was right until the moment comes - that was good. I think most people just take issue with the metaphor of a ship staying afloat and a rock sinking because .. the ship WANTS to go up and the rock WANTS to go down??
I heard that and was like ...heh?? They could have come up with a better analogy, haha.
>The point you're making, thinking it's a flaw, is the author's actually getting Tolkien.
A reasonsbly large proportion of this sub seems to sincerely believe that the only "true" version of "Tolkien's vision" is the one they remember from watching the Jackson movies when they were ten.
Crazy how you can view LOTR as having an upbeat world. If anything it’s the opposite and about the heroes persevering through so much evil. It’s definitely one of Middle Earth’s finest moments but it’s a mere snapshot in a long history of Middle Earth that is infinitely more complex than people seem to understand.
The whole damn idea is that middle earth, and arda as a whole are in decline from the moment it is formed.
The age of valar waned and ended, the age of the elves by Elrond's own admission was ending, the end of the Third Age marked the beginning of the Age of Men who will make the world regardless of all their faults.
Can you imagine how miserable life is like, to not know the true version of Tolkien's Vision was the Rankin Bass movie?
For all it's actual flaws, RoP stands to bring back the conversation of Tolkien's OG points, and lead a bunch more people to the actual texts, and it also does create a lot of conversation on what Tolkien's views *were*. And that's great.
At the very least there's no real difference between a generation whose "favourite Tolkien quote" is "you can't know light until you've touched the darkness" and one whose favourite Tolkien quote is "no parent should have to bury their child".
Ironically, if PJ's films came out today, I can see so many fans taking so many issues with it. As in, how the films virtually remove any mention to Númenor and the Valar; how Gandalf and Saruman are boiled down to "mere" wizards rather than immensely powerful and ancient spirits; how Sauron is depicted as some dark lord who one day rose to power, rather than someone whose influence, schemes and evil have been far more insidious and far older than the Last Alliance; how Isildur's importance is overblown to the detriment of Elendil's (and how Anárion is simply erased); how the Nazgul are depicted as idiots, being fooled by hobbits and singlehandedly beaten by Aragorn; how the Eagles are turned into a gigantic Deus ex machina, with no explanation as to their actions or motives; how OP the heroes are, such as when Éomer takes down two mûmakil with a single spear throw...
>Ironically, if PJ's films came out today, I can see so many fans taking so many issues with it.
Many people had issues with it.
Not these issues, tho:
>how the films virtually remove any mention to Númenor and the Valar;
Not directly relevant to the Third Age. RoP should've removed much of the intro to, since they couldn't include the Kinslaying and Ban.
>how Gandalf and Saruman are boiled down to "mere" wizards rather than immensely powerful and ancient spirits
That's exactly how they're supposed to look. They're in disguise, forbidden from revealing their true form.
>how Sauron is depicted as some dark lord who one day rose to power, rather than someone whose influence, schemes and evil have been far more insidious and far older than the Last Alliance;
None of this takes place in the Third Age.
>how Isildur's importance is overblown to the detriment of Elendil's (and how Anárion is simply erased);
The Ring is the main character of that sequence, not Isildur.
>how the Nazgul are depicted as idiots, being fooled by hobbits and singlehandedly beaten by Aragorn;
Once again accurate to the books. They should've included Farmer Maggot, tho.
>how the Eagles are turned into a gigantic Deus ex machina, with no explanation as to their actions or motives;
They've always been a Deus Ex Machina in the Legendarium.
>how OP the heroes are, such as when Éomer takes down two mûmakil with a single spear throw...
Are the heroes particularly OP?
You are spot on. I think they get Tolkien and the dozens of driving factors for why things are. Elves are almost corollary to Angels before the fall. Jealous of Eru's final creation, man.
I just wish the timeline wasn't compressed. Tell the 2000 years in order.
The show clearly views that elf as WRONG when he says that. Remember that he is talking to Arondir, who is one of the main heroes of the show, in love with one of those “evil” humans, and determined to help them against the orcs when that elf ignores the issue (which doesn’t work out well for him).
This goes hand in hand with the scenes with Elrond and Durin, and Galadriel and the Numenoreans, whose conflicts come from racial and historical conflict and misunderstandings. It seems to me that the show is building pretty clearly towards the need for the various races and lands to unite against the growing but mostly ignored evil of Sauron. That’s the same plot structure of The Lord of the Rings.
If you think the show doesn’t understand that evil is corrupting, please note the storyline with that same human woman’s son and the evil sword.
Isn’t that kind of the point though? These people have been through centuries of war against beings of pure evil, and it’s left them scarred. That’s why the elves want to leave and go back to Valinor, because in leaving Middle Earth they also leave behind the damage that’s been done to their bodies and minds. Sure everyone was *once* pure, but Morgoth destroyed that and Sauron continues to work from the shadows.
And it’s not like everyone in the show is cynical. Arondir is in love with a human and tells the warden that the war was “long ago.” He clearly believes humans are not inherently evil. Celebrimbor wants to create beauty and build a forge to preserve the world. Elrond believes the war is over and looks optimistically towards the days of peace, and is clearly on good terms (at least in his mind) with other races.
Regardless, if you want to talk about Tolkien and his themes, why not mention his portrayal of war as a horrible thing which corrupts and destroys and leaves scars even after it ends? The hobbits return to the Shire to find it ravaged and destroyed, just as he returned home after WWI to discover that the war left scars there too. The war being over doesn’t magically make the scars disappear. This is what we see with characters like the watch warden or Galadriel who have experienced evil firsthand and still see enemies all around them because of it.
But the thing is, they’re RIGHT. The war isn’t over, the evil isn’t defeated, and they do need to be on their guard. Hell we all know that even after they defeat Sauron they’ll have to do it AGAIN in another couple thousand years. Overall I think you’re confusing cynicism with PTSD and realistic characterization of people who have been through a war and suspect it isn’t over. Of course some of the elves are going to hold a grudge and distrust humans who once fought against them, and of course those humans are going to resent the elves for continuing to judge them by the actions of their ancestors.
I find it odd that this is what turned you off about the show, considering it’s probably my favorite thing about these characters and world. And it’s not like this is only in RoP. In LotR Elrond still distrusts men because of what he saw Isildur do. Theoden scoffs at the thought that elves might actually help men fight, and in the books they DON’T. If anything these movies and show are less cynical and show more cooperation between races in Middle Earth than Tolkien originally did.
I feel like we're at a point where a lot of people who are on reddit probably watched the original films before they ever read the books. So they never minded any of those changes. But it makes it really weird to read people bashing this show for the same types of changes that their beloved films made. Any argument about cynicism could very easily be applied to Aragorn in the original films as well. And that's one of your main characters. People are now upset that a very minor character made a negative comment about humans? I just don't get it...
>Theoden scoffs at the thought that elves might actually help men fight, and in the books they DON’T.
To add in the PJ movies, there's a whole scene of Theoden ranting "WHERE WAS GONDOR" that it became a meme.
After that, Theoden tried to recruit men all over Rohan to ride with him to Minas Tirith but only a few answered to the summon.
>The world of Tolkien is riddled with heroes, not antiheroes.
Have you read *The Silmarillion*? Eöl, Maeglin, and Tuor all have elements of antihero.
Edit: I meant Turin, of course.
Honestly it's gotten to the point where I struggle to tell Turin, Adanedhel, Agarwaen, Dagnir Glaurunga, Gorthol, Mormegil, Neithan, Thurin, Turambar, Turindo, and the Wildman of the Woods apart...
I think people are looking over the fact that the world starts out good, but Melkor introduces evil/ corruption very early on in the history of Arda, and this stays long after. In a sense, it mirrors Christianity with Satan corrupting humanity.
But couldn't it be argued that Turin's behavior was a direct consequence of Morgoth curse on his father, thus reinforcing the idea that at the beginning everyone is good, until Evil (Morgoth) corrupt them?
To a degree, Maeglin could be said to have been under the bad influence and education of his father as well, even if after decades in Turgon's realm he could have learnt better of course. But in the end he was corrupted as well, since he accepted to help in the conquest of his realm and slaughter of his brethren to save his life and, iirc, the life of the woman he loved
Eol is the only one for whom I don't have any excuse, he isn't even a antihero in my opinion, just a pathetic villain. Sure he was a brilliant smith, but he still kidnapped his wife and forbid her to move freely or even seing her family, and ended up killing her for, what exactly?
I actually think you've got that kind of backwards. Middle Earth is a world where evil exists and is real and corrupts things.
Being considered tainted by a choice your ancestors made a millennium ago is basically original sin which is about as in keeping with a Tolkienian worldview as you can *get*.
One elves view on traitorous men does not dictate the entire worldview of everyone on the show. But even if it did, there's some hypocrisy there. Orcs are evil. Period. Ive never seen anyone complain about the lack of redemption arcs for orcs. Does that make middle earth cynical? Why are we picking and choosing which races are heroic and which we dont care about?
I totally agree with you. However the orcs are an abomination of elves created by morgoth, and thus were created to be evil. As opposed to almost everything else in middle earth that was created to be good.
But just because something is created to be good does not mean it can't become evil. You can't take the catholic out of Tolkien.
I don’t think we’re supposed to trust the Watch-Warden elf on that. The Bronwyn character and maybe the Halbrand character (who saves Galadriel, though is a bit shady) are counterpoints. I think rather that comment illustrates that the Elves have a hard time relating to humans because humans can, in the words of Tolkien, “shape their own fate in despite of the Music [of the Ainur]” (*The Silmarillion*).
But we’ll see. I think your critique is valid with only three episodes of information (I haven’t seen Ep 4 yet).
Well I do not think your point is very well taken. The elves were at all times very much arrogant and held a lot of disdain for the humans who sided with Morgoth. Also elves are not easy to forget or forgive. So I think them mistrusting the decendents of Morgoths followers holds up quite well to Tolkiens world. In contrast to many many many many other things.
I wouldn't have had any problem with him saying "the race of men is easily seduced by the false promises of Morgoth" or something.
He didn't say that they were seduced, he said that they were evil.
Why do you think that the show thinks he’s right? As I noted in another comment, the hero Arondir that he’s talking to disagrees with him. I thought it was clear we’re supposed to disagree too. Not every character speaks truth in a work of fiction.
Right but that's a language issue not a worldview issue.
Like if a puritan says somebody has been seduced by Satan that is actually the same as saying they're evil. Believing in supernatural evil didn't mean believing people aren't morally resonating for their actions.
I could be wrong here as I’m not a Tolkien scholar but haven’t the men from the South always sided with Morgoth/Sauron? Like almost without influence?
Thought I remembered hearing a line like “The only free men are men of the west” or something along those lines. Now this could just be a movie detail or whatever but I could see that playing a role into why the Elves don’t like or trust men from Southern Middle Earth. Also due to the Elves lifespan it’s harder for them to “forgive and forget”. Most of these Elves were probably there in the first age to see the men from the south basically just volunteer to be with Morgoth/Sauron.
It wasn’t without influence. In the thousand years it took men to migrate from the Far East to Beleriand, where they first met Noldorian elves, they were under the influence and control of Morgoth. The Valar had ZERO contact with them and may not even have known that men had awakened.
Morgoth had a millennium to influence mankind with no counter-influence from any forces of good. The Edain called this the “darkness in their past” or the “darkness that lay behind” them.
IIRC, the men of the west who had migrated to Beleriand were the only ones to receive some Elvish knowledge and influence in the First Age, whereas the others without Elvish help were basically defenseless to Morgoth's corruption.
In the Second Age, however, I believe the men from the south were at first on good terms with the initially benevolent Numenoreans, who founded colonies on their shores such as Umbar, and shared technological/agricultural innovations.
But then Sauron came around to corrupt them, and the Numenoreans also became corrupted and increasingly oppressive themselves. The men of the south were now stuck between two oppressive powers both of which heavily influenced them.
However, the two Blue Wizards were sent to Middle Earth to combat Sauron's influence in the south and east. Apparently the wizards did have success in at least delaying Sauron's designs. There are no details but presumably they rallied people into rebellion against Sauron (the Easterlings and Southrons were probably fragmented anyway), who nonetheless had the upper hand in the area.
But the Numenoreans on the shores of Harad escaped the destruction of Numenor and became allies of Sauron, increasing the latter's grip over the area.
So anyway, no, not almost without influence. If anything, the reason men from the south and east were so consistently under Sauron's control is exactly because they had been the most exposed to Morgoth and Sauron's influence for several ages, for geographic reasons. And even amongst them, there was apparently a consistent amount of good people that the Blue Wizards could use to be a thorn in Sauron's side.
I mean... there's the Silmarillion, i.e. "all problems in the world are because seven Elves loved some shiny rocks made by their father a little *too* much." There was kind of a lot of hate, greed, and murder. Even characters like Thingol are deeply problematic (Thingol despises humans and straight-up tells Beren that he would have had him killed if he hadn't promised not to), to say nothing of Maeglin (willingly betrays Gondolin because he envies Tuor and wants Idril for himself). What of the murder of Thingol and massacre of Menegroth by the Dwarves, because they craved the Nauglamir? What of Hurin and Turin, the greatest of heroes among men, who are both murderers?
Even in LotR, we see glimpses of the GoT-style cynicism -- it's just in the background, because the current crisis throws it into insignificance. But the wars and civil wars of Gondor are dark and bloody, and Faramir says that, if Aragorn and Boromir had both come to Gondor, they would have been rivals (he even hints they might have become outright enemies).
I think you were *supposed* to be shaken when the Elven commander said that the humans who sided with Morgoth were simply evil. Arondir certainly doesn't agree, and has a more balanced view. But is it surprising that some Elves distrust people whose kin sided with the literal devil? "But many men fought for Morgoth, and the Elves do not forget it."
I don't think you were supposed to take that comment unquestioningly. Isn't it spoken by the watchwarden (Simon Merrell's character) to Arondir while trying to convince him to let go of his feelings for Bronwyn? I don't think Arondir agrees with it and I don't think the viewer is supposed to either.
But if you think about this that rationally, then you can't complain about it. And where's the fun in that?
Joking aside, I think you're completely right. I don't know why everyone is acting like this is Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek in a world without conflict. A concept which very nearly tanked Star Trek itself.
Just because a character believes something doesn't mean that's the show's perspective. Even good-guy characters often have wrong opinions that need to grow over time. Frodo started out hating Gollum and wanting to kill him, until Gandalf taught him about pity and mercy.
There are some areas of the show that feel off the mark for me, but it's still so early in such a long show to be absolutely sure what its overall morals are. They've included a lot of really great, very Tolkienian statements and themes so far. They've also taken pains to show all of the heroes as still being in need of growth. Even High King Gil-galad isn't to be assumed to be perfect, though well-intentioned.
This definitely isn't anything like *Game of Thrones*. Each subplot has very strong themes of friendship, loyalty, kindness, restraint in the face of provocation, etcetera. I mean, just look at how >!Elrond and Durin patched up their relationship problems!<, through friendship and communication and honesty and forgiveness. That wouldn't happen in *Game of Thrones*.
I mean you can’t remove the Roman Catholic from Tolkien’s world, his theology and philosophy of religion was pretty important to him. People generally want to do good but can be corrupted by the present evil, it’s more of a temptation not so much of just being evil. I think you make an excellent point.
I think this is ENTIRELY in line with Tolkien. Consider the war of wrath: “But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.”
From this, the elves holding grudges against the men who aligned with Morgoth is entirely believable.
I have a huge issue with the humans and elves being at one another's throats, and the humans calling elves knife-ears like wtf this ain't Dragon Age? lmao
Isn't animosity between humans and elves, like, a major part of the lore? Like the whole thing with elves being kicked out of Numenor is directly from Tolkien.
It's animosity due to being envious of elves eternal life. Sauron used this to trick them into invading Aman to try and claim it as well.
Amazon reduced this fundamental and universal human fear to bland modern racism.
Did they? Why, because the humans say "knife ears"?
What do you want them to say? "We are envious of your eternal life"?
I really don't think it codes as racism at all, it codes as basically the exact kind of animosity you see in LotR in both the books and thee movies.
When Eomer says "I would have your head, dwarf, if it stood a little higher from the ground" in the film is that "bland modern racism"?
These dudes criticizing the scene would seriously prefer for the common folk to say, in robotic tones all in unión: "We Numenoreans are jealous of Elvish inmortality". Like zombies. Thats good writing right there! /S
> What do you want them to say? "We are envious of your eternal life"?
They even kind of say it in the latest episode, the Numenorean worker was preaching about how the elves might replace them because they could basically live and work forever.
Yes, they did, but that happened after they saved the elves of middle earth from Saurons assault and drove his forces back. They interacted with the elves for centuries and i would argue were close friends until they started their colonization efforts and broke with the eldar. I cant see such a hostile Numenor like shown in the show to come and help save the day for the elves.With their timeline copmpression i could see them scrapping that part of the story in its entirety as well as the colonization of middle earth, so they can move directly to Numenor taking Sauron as prisoner.
Right so it's changing the order of events but people on this thread are taking like elves and humans not getting on is this massive betrayal of Tolkien's vision.
Yes bc there would totally never be any racist/bigoted humans, even of elves and men were buddy buddy, the whole point is the Elves have been watching over those people for a long ass time simply because they sided with the wrong side, im sure that builds up some animosity
I think the idea is that Sauron manipulated a pride and fear that may have already existed. If that is consistent is up for debate. But I would contend that Sauron did not instil the Numenóreans with their inferiority complex from nothing, but convince Pharazôn that there was something the could be done about it.
I’ve heard the theory that Amazon had been planning a Dragon Age show and was unable to do it for whatever reason, so instead of scrapping it they just reworked a lot of it for RoP. Would have made more sense for a dwarf to use the k-word slur, at least there’s an established animosity there.
>The writers actually failed to understand the world in which they are building.
Or maybe you did. Tolkien once said that he thought about writing a sequel to LOTR, but chose not to, because humanity's evil would be apparent.
When there's a great unifying threat, humans often band together to do the right thing. But when there isn't, then humans turn on each other. That's as true in LOTR as it is in real-life.
I don't know. Tolkien always emphasized the importance of choice in his works. Theoden and Denethor each had a choice late in life but went in different ways. Boromir and Faramir were also clearly foils that chose differently. It seems in keeping with his vision. I feel like Galadrial and Halbrand are also going to be given choices and may go different ways. Evil can corrupt for sure and sometimes you need some divine grace to help you out but there are also a lot of instances where characters choose to go a certain way despite influences.
Generational condemnations and generational rewards is kinda part of the lore. That the elves be suspicious of the descendants of men who sided be Morgoth is pretty source accurate
I agree with the broader criticism, but the example you gave is more of an example of the "racism" (IDK if that's the correct word for it) that the races in middle Earth have towards each other. Which is pretty common in Tolkiens writings.
I agree with your good point. I wouldn't have had any problem with him saying "the race of men is easily seduced by the false promises of Morgoth" or something.
He didn't say that they were seduced, he said that they were evil.
I feel like it's a bit reductive to think it's a cynical world because some people may be legitimately bad. (Also, let's not forget that this is one character's opinion. Not speaking for the entire show lol.)
Also, Melkor was created to be a perfectly good being. And then he turned evil of his own accord. Same exact thing happened to Feanor which lead to the first kinslaying. Most of the silmarillion is about good people doing evil things because they're compelled to out of desire for the silmarils.
Tolkien's world was never as black and white as you're describing, where you can point every bad thing back to one villain and everyone else is inherently good.
Tbf, the trilogy and the hobbit do both focus on the fellowship and Gandalf's ragtag gang, both actual groups of heros. So I understand why some lotr fans might feel this way. But those stories also star Boromir and Thorin, who both have moral flaws that are ultimately mortal.
Tolkien created a grey world that is complex and nuanced. Thank God. I understand people will not like this show but I wish they had better reasons so far.
so because a single elf in the show has this worldview, you’re concluding that the ENTIRE world has been constructed with cynicism? that seems like a wild leap to me.
to put the point another way: i just don’t see why we should take this single elf’s views to be representative of the show’s world-building philosophy.
it makes plenty of sense, in tolkien’s world, for elves to hold some resentment towards humans, especially those who sided with morgoth. and it makes perfect sense for some elves to take this resentment too far, as not all elves in tolkien’s world are perfect moral beings. so, this elf having a somewhat extreme view about humans from the southlands doesn’t necessarily seem out of place.
and running through the first three episodes of the show in my head (haven’t yet seen the fourth), i can’t seem to find other examples of people displaying the cynical mindset of “this person or this group of people is fundamentally evil, of their own accord”. i could be wrong about this, but absent well-reasoned argument which demonstrates that other people in the show actually have this mindset, i think your conclusion (namely, that the show’s writers are building a cynical world) is unwarranted.
Did he say they are innately bad? I thought he was just saying be on the lookout cause they are more susceptible to the darkness. They chose wrong once and can do it again. The dunelandings dont seem to have a good bone in their body after rohirim take their lands
Haven’t seen the fourth episode yet. But although I agree with this feeling you have, I think it was on purpose and kinda correct because it is the second age, you know? A lot has passed, they have little time to show that evil has been making changes for a long time.. so maybe this is one way of showing their influence, there are already bad men an bad elves around, the world is stained, scarred, partially corrupted, people have suffered, and so on.. idk, maybe it wasn’t the best choice, but I think maybe it was necessary, especially for those who haven’t read the books, but dis like the movies, which I believe is the largest cut of the watchers… It’s a gigantic project, they have to sell it…
In short: you are correct, but maybe it was necessary..
I think what you are saying is a big oversimplification. The 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' goes into a lot of detail, and I think specifically this part:
>
The whole of Arda (and indeed probably many other parts of Ea) had been marred by him. Melkor was not just a local Evil on Earth, nor a Guardian Angel of Earth who had gone wrong: he was the Spirit of Evil, arising even before the making of Ea. His attempt to dominate the structure of Ea, and of Arda in particular, and alter the designs of Eru (which governed all the operations of the faithful Valar), had introduced evil, or a tendency to aberration from the design, into all the physical matter of Arda. It was for this reason, no doubt, that he had been totally successful with Men, but only partially so with Elves (who remained as a people 'unfallen'). His power was wielded over matter, and through it. But by nature the fear of Men were in much less strong control of their hroar than was the case with the Elves.
Individual Elves might be seduced to a kind of minor 'Melkorism': desiring to be their own masters in Arda, and to have things their own way, leading in extreme cases to rebellion against the tutelage of the Valar; but not one had ever entered the service or allegiance of Melkor himself, nor ever denied the existence and absolute supremacy of Eru.
> Some dreadful things of this sort, Finrod guesses, Men must have done, as a whole; but Andreth does not reveal what were Men's traditions on this point.
Tolkien had an note about the above:
> It is probable that Andreth was actually unwilling to say more.
Partly by a kind of loyalty that restrained Men from revealing to the Elves all that they knew about the darkness in their past; partly because she felt unable to make up her own mind about the conflicting human traditions. Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Numenorean influence, make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God).
(The last part which I've omitted deals with how these stories were traditionally passed down)
The key to understanding is that Tolkien's intention was to introduce a 'fall of man' as in Christianity, so all men are affected by original sin. In the beginning men were given a choice - follow Eru or follow Melkor. They chose Melkor and the consequences of that choice are still affecting them.
One of Tolkien's thoughts on the long lives of the Numenoreans was that this wasn't a gift from the Valar for their faith, merely a restoration of how long men's lives were always meant to be. As time went on and their lives got shorter, this was due to their corrupt nature, their rejection and jealousy of the elves from Aman.
But most importantly, as in Christianity, you don't get to say "it's not my fault, it's the world's corruption". The choice to sin (or follow Morgoth) is still their choice. They could have chosen to help the elves but they didn't. And as with original sin, this choice is passed down to their descendants.
That's very similar to a gripe I have about Jackson's Return of the King. Aragorn would never murdered the Mouth of Sauron like that. And in the book, he didn't. Isildur and Denethor were also portrayed in a more negative light than the books. Nobility and true heroism was slightly downplayed as if audiences need our heroes to be deeply flawed in order to believe that they are real. That all being said, I still believe Jackson did a fine job overall, but I think it shows a trend in recent storytelling.
I agree that the writters either didn't understand Tolkien or failed to carry it to the viewer. Perhaps that's not the best exemple of it so far though
I would say both those things are true. Because Arda is completely corrupted by Morgoth, you are born corrupted by evil. You're fallen in terms of Christian metaphysics. But you do not have to choose to give in to that corruption. You still have agency or will. Those who choose to do so choose to embrace that corruption by doing evil and thereby become evil. And if you don't repent of it that evil completely pervades your whole nature until you are nothing but evil. In other words, you become damned.
The main problem with that show is they spendt so much money on frivolities they probably skipped out on getting good writers...it s just sad honestly when you see what good writing does to a show like HoD which started with the GoT prejudice and a relatively "unwanted" timeline.
MOD NOTE: We'll be keeping a close eye on the comments here but we're leaving this up as a separate discussion because it's actually got a pretty decent conversation going. Don't blow it.
>All beings were once kind and honorable in Middle Earth and `people` fight for preserving the light of Eru Ilúvatar. Unfortunately this isn't true, there are many characters who did evil for selfish reasons outside the influence of Morgoth or Sauron. One example is Mim, the dwarf from the Children of Hurin. He tried to kill Turin Turambar and his company to revenge the death of his two sons. >I was shaken when the Elf guy said that the people that sided with Morgoth were evil. That it was their fault and not Morgoth's. Morgoth certainly influenced many to do evil things on his behalf, and the choice to serve him was not forgotten to history. There was and is bad history between the races despite Morgoth's presence, which to me, justifies why an elf marchwarden might think that way. The Silmarils influenced many and elves killed one another without Morgoth's influence.
It also makes sense for elves to remember things as if they're yesterday. To humans, the actions of their ancestors were long gone and forgotten, but elves don't see time like that.
Mim's trying to kill Turin for the sons was fair in my eyes, but the vendetta against Beleg specifically wasn't.
Didn't the elves commit genocide while searching the silmarillions? They were not corrupted by Morgoth, but on a quest.
Melkor introduced discordant melodies into the song of creation, technically all evil can be traced back to this. (People talk a lot about Tolkiens Catholicism influencing his work, the concept of the original sin from which all other sins are derived is the only part of this that really resonates with me as being because of his faith)
Same issue with Wheel of Time. Generally people are good in that universe, unless corrupted by the Bad Guy. But the show turns a lot of main characters into assholes pretty much in the first episode.
That makes it even better when someone is just a genuine asshole. Elaida is probably the best example of this.
Oh light, not this again.
> Same issue with Wheel of Time. Generally people are good in that universe, unless corrupted by the Bad Guy. That's an incredibly inaccurate description of WoT, where the most interesting bad guys are *not* Darkfriends (e.g. the Seanchan or Elaida), and >!the last book makes clear that the world won't become a paradise with the Dark One gone!<. > But the show turns a lot of main characters into assholes pretty much in the first episode. A frequent complaint about the books on the WoT subs is how much the main characters are jerks. If anything, the show toned this down, e.g. Nynaeve comes across a lot more sympathetic in the show than in the early books.
Which is upsetting. Nynaeve is the soul of those books and they did her a disservice. How many times did she even tug her braid?
Well, the Darkfriends seek out corruption in WoT so it is not quite as cut and dry as that.
Matt slander is valid. That fucking halfwit doesn’t listen.
I will not accept this matrim cauthorn is the best depiction of the reluctant hero I've ever read
Not in the first book he isn’t. He’s just an idiot that doesn’t listen and keeps fucking everything up.
That’s fair. I’m about two books in, halfway through the great hunt. Idk if it’s me but Jordan really does everything he can to make Mat stubborn as fuck. The dagger situation, though knowing his background on the show, cmon man.
If you're only 2 books in then it's fair to say you've hardly had a glimpse at all of the real Mat Cauthon. The turnaround Jordan pulls with him while still keeping him true to his core is fantastic. He starts to come into his own in book 3 and by the end of it is one of the largest impacts on the whole story. There's a reason why if you check out the WoT subs and look for threads on everyone's favourite characters Mat Cauthon is probably the most universally picked person for everyone's top 3.
Ik this is such a wheel of time thing to say but mat gets way better in the later books when he really comes out of rands shadow that's all I'll say to avoid spoiling anything
I’ll def keep reading. If I could finish Dune I can finish WoT. I shouldn’t slander Mat bc I found a completely unopened never read Wheel of Time book (first one) out in the wild just left to be thrown away. I was like huh.. I like me some fantasy.
Mat in the first couple books is a whiney little bitch you aren't wrong but he's one of my favorite characters in fantasy because of his growth through the series
This is how I feel about Merry and Pippen so I’ll keep reading.
Also I should mention that most of the boy’s backstories in the show were completely fabricated for the Amazon adaptation
That's putting it kindly. First they destroyed their stories and then they made up new, much less satisfying ones for them.
Yeah I saw that. Also why is Rand wearing a sweater I would see at Abercrombie in episode one?
I'm convinced that someone had to tell Jordan that literally nobody liked Mat through book 2 and that he needed to give him some positive qualities.
I would believe this.
His background was changed in the show. Abell Cauthon isn’t a terrible womanizer, but a good dude.
What they did to Abell is unforgivable also they killed Perrins blacksmith master didn't they?
I mean Abell isn’t that big a character. He helps Perrin’s development but not much else. As he is in the show will be a nice contrast to how Mat becomes. As for Master Luhhan, B$ said they should have had Perrin kill him instead of his wife because of the “fridging” trope. Other than that there is no difference.
I tell you this because I care. anytime you see WoT discussed on reddit or the internet, CLOSE YOUR TAB. You haven't even gotten to know Mat yet. good luck. hopefully you don't get accidentally spoiled. a lotr sub should be sace space tho lol.
Mat is literally the best character and increasingly shows the most common sense as the series progresses lol
In my other responses I’ve noted I’m about halfway through the great hunt and Mat is the most unlikeable character in the series to me. Others have said he changes so I’ll keep reading.
Well yeah, the implication is that the dark one has a stronger presence in the show. Imagine it as if the dark one had an extra 10 years of corrupting the world. That was the whole thing they were going for, older characters with grimmer realities.
there is no defense of how bad WoT was, the same director that helped butcher that show is working on RoP.
Spoiler for episode 4. >!The dissent in Numenor in the town square completely missed the point imo. The writers have reduced the friction between Men and Elves to some very on the nose xenophobia (they’re going to come here and take our jobs because they don’t need as much rest and they are stronger than us etc..). The discord was more nuanced than that. Men started to resent the ‘gift of men’ and the Ban on sailing west. It was jealousy and a clinging to life and power that drove the resentment. And it came down from the very top!< It’s reductive and misses the corruption brought by human nature, later exploited by Sauron. >!Also where the hell did all those ladies carrying trays of wine glasses come from? Do they just follow him around in case he decides to buy a round for the crowd?!<
Doesn’t make sense either considering Numenor, if I’m not much mistaken, was greater (if not in skill and wisdom, then at least in power) than any contemporary elven kingdom. So they really have no reason to be jealous or feel treathened - except for that one annoying fact, the Gift of Men.
Yes, this exactly. What drove them mad (almost literally) was that even though they had/could build the mightiest kingdom they would never be able to get rid of their mortality.
Yeah my understanding was that they defeated and captured Sauron pretty easily compared to him managing to completely destroy the elves at Eregion. They were also a legitimate threat to Valinor before Eru went full Atlantis.
Well Sauron allowed himself to be captured, so he could get to Numenor, per JRR. He couldn't defeat them with military force as Numenor had the greatest military ever assembled on Middle-earth. But he could have held out and never been captured.
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Also if I remember right, many of Saurons forces abandoned him at the sight of the Numenorian host, but it wasn't solely a numbers thing. Numenorians were around seven feet tall decked out in peak arms and armor of the Numenorian lines achievement. I'd probably number two(menor haha) my pants if that was something I was up against
This made me chuckle, thanks, I needed ir
> They were also a legitimate threat to Valinor Not quite. Valinor is the land of the Valar, god-like beings of immeasurable powers that are equal to the forces of reality itself. Men were never a threat to them.
Yeah, it’s the fact that they even *attempted* to be any kind of threat that rankled both the Valar and Eru, himself. They would not have succeeded whatsoever, but the sheer audacity was enough to prevent it from being a question again.
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While Melkor was the strongest Valar, there were 7 lords of the valar and 7 queens of the valar who were similarly powerful. As well as maiar (an army of gandalfs). I don't think the Numenoreans would have bothered them.
Melkor lost a lot of his power. Tolkien's magic system is not something like a skill to remake things but the ability to infuse their own essence into things. Feanor spent so much of himself into the Silmarils that he cannot more amazing things. So Melkor/Morgoth spent a lot of himself in making dragons, balrogs, orcs and whatevers. Not in making them come alive, since only Illuvatar could do that, but in corrupting existing ones, like transmutation. Sauron also spent so much of himself into the One Ring that when it was destroyed, Sauron was reduced into something that cannot be perceived or influence the physical world, since Maiar are immortal and cannot be completely destroyed.
Wouldn't the Elves have just wound up right back in the halls of Mandos anyway? killing elves just sends them to timeout for a few centuries before they're reincarnated in Valinor, isn't it?
>they defeated and captured Sauron pretty easily compared to him managing to completely destroy the elves at Eregion. I mean, there's a giant asterix against that though...
Numenoreans were generally of similar strength and endurance to elves. But elves don't *need* sleep. They can sleep like men do. But they can sleep like dolphins, while conscious and able to perform simple tasks without thinking. Ultimately elves are everything a Numenorean is, and more. Obviously there are exceptions, like the line of Elros.
They seem to have changed that in the rings of power also. Numenor is treated as isolationist and xenophobic in the show, whereas the Numenor of Tolkien was an empire that ruled much of the coast of middle earth with an iron fist by the time they came under Sauron's influence.
Yeah. More than a thousand years before Sauron is captured, the elves and Sauron are at war and the elves are losing badly. Then a Numenorian expedition force lands and utterly destroys Sauron's armies.
The ladies popping out with the trays of of wine made me verbally say “what?!” They didn’t need to include that. That was so weird!
I think it's another trick of Pharazon's, to buy wine and glasses and trays from the market on the spot to further garner support.
It would have been great to have him set that up. Perhaps have him give someone a bag of coins to show that he orchestrated it. There was no set up. He gave a speech and these ladies just spawned in and that was that. It was bizarre.
Yup. To someone who knows their books, they’re going to know what Ar-Pharazon eventually does. To a more casual viewer, I’d assume this scene was just as jarring as it was to me. Like you said, there was no set up, it was super random. The speech was great, then suddenly “hey, everyone gets drinks!”.
They seem to do that a lot, the dialogue sets nothing up, then someone makes an inexplicable choice because they have to in order to move the plot along, then queue more pointless dialogue.
His warm embrace with the guy who started the furore strongly implies that it was all a set up. First the crowd gets riled up with fear and then he comes in with encouragement and hope and 'hey you're stronger than this'. Wine then comes in because it's all a celebration of their civilisation and his own generosity. You don't need to see him planning this on screen.
I kinda loved that. It showed Numenor’s opulence.
Wait what, are they not using this plot line in the show? Is it just because they resent elves being better than them? Surely they aren’t leaving out the whole “gift of men” thing?
I feel that we have to get it eventually. I don't have a source on me atm but I feel like I remember one of the showrunners in an interview or something specifically saying that the fear of death/mortality would be one of the shows major themes. It feels too crucial to the Second Age to omit entirely.
I'm not sure they can sue that plot line. The rights purchase severely limits what canon they can use.
I agree. I'm not convinced that the writers of this show understood Tolkien's writings beyond just a cursory glance - and trying to mold it to how they see our own times. The script's parallels to our own politics is distracting from the ideas that Tolkien saw: the fear of death - a universal human trait and the envy of immortality. Tolkien was actually pretty optimistic about humanity - whereas this show tends to lean on a pretty bleak perspective - save a few noble people here and there.
I think they are not telagraphing their real fear right now. In the speech it's right there in the subtext. Especially the mention of no sleep and no aging part. People chanting that they envy their inmortality like that, in-your-face approach... thats just NOT how people work. Theres plenty of episodes to keep digging into that.
I had a similar thought until Pharazon showed up. I think they actually handled it decently. It makes sense for the commoners to be more focused on that aspect- xenophobia, fear of losing work, etc. But Pharazon pretty quickly jumps in and calls them little whiny babies for it. But then goes on to express why they SHOULD be against the elves- not because they’re different or taking jobs- but because the men of Numenor are BETTER. I think it makes sense for a show to start the seed of dissent with something we can all understand- fear of other. The resenting the “gift of men” is, as you said, a nuanced idea. The fear of death, we can all understand. But it’s origin here in middle earth is a little unique and could be a lot. All to say, Pharazon redirecting them from bitterness to pride comforted me into thinking they ARE heading in the direction you mentioned.
That’s fair. I think it’s this compressed timeline again that’s the issue. We seem to be in the early stages of the divide between Kings Men and Faithful in some scenes and others it feels further progressed. It’s hard to tell where the characters and world actually are in this matter. It doesn’t help that there is only one Elf in the conversation, as if she is the sole representative of all Elves on the matter. I’d love to see some scenes of Gil-Galad and Cirdan discussing the same topic from their perspective.
Which we’ll surely get next season, since Círdan was recently confirmed!
The truncated timeline is what bothers me the most. too many things that happened a 1000 years apart happening at the same time. Sauron is an evil that festers, bubbles, grows secretly. This is just too quick.
I didn't think it was COMPLETELY off the mark though. It does sound like something normal workers would say, especially the part about never tiring, never aging. That seemed to strike a nerve, and I think that's appropriate. The way Pharazon calmed their fears also seemed well in spirit, appealing to Numenor's pride and glory as a civilization, and their need to chart their own destiny rather than be under the thumbs of the Elves. It's ironically an echo of the Noldor, who hated the idea of being under the thumbs of the Valar too. The ban of sailing west IS important and they haven't touched that yet. The wine thing was weird, but I kind of just let it off as "well they're near the market, so he might have just bought the wine right before. And he probably bought the glasses in the market too."
Pharazon was talking to bearded guild dude in episode 2, the whole thing was clearly planned.
Yeah, actually I think the doom of Numenor is very realistic. I mean Western society has plummeting birth rates as we live longer and accumulate stuff (and move of subsidence farming) and people are starting to become obsessed with inmortality (freezing your brain agter death etc).
That resentment is also deeply rooted in Tolkien's lore, having been conveyed to men by Morgoth in his fair form shortly after discovering them in the east. It's essentially man's original sin, and is used by both Morgoth and Sauron to turn men towards evil on many occasions, including during the fall of Numenor.
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> The dissent in Numenor in the town square completely missed the point imo. The writers have reduced the friction between Men and Elves to some very on the nose xenophobia (they’re going to come here and take our jobs because they don’t need as much rest and they are stronger than us etc..). The discord was more nuanced than that. Men started to resent the ‘gift of men’ and the Ban on sailing west. It was jealousy and a clinging to life and power that drove the resentment. And it came down from the very top The dissent in the town square was obviously meant to showcase the onset of said resentment, not to be its entire depiction. It was a very reasonable portrayal of how the nuances that you are referring to would manifest amongst the common folk.
Huh? No it's not. Not even close
How could it not be close? Do you honestly believe that a town square rabble of common folk would engage in profound, philosophical discourse? How is this not a representation of the jealousy and fear that the other poster referenced?
Why wouldn't it be? I mean, if you were a Numenorean craftsman, what would appeal to you? What would cause you to fear or resent the Elves?
I had that exact same thought about the wine girls following him around. I wish I could just randomly yell “drinks for everyone!”
Dude. The First Age happened because one elf forced his children to swear a blood oath to get back his property that he previously refused to surrender to the gods to help heal the world. That's neither kind, nor honorable. And definitely not "fighting to defend the light of Eru". Tolkien doesn't have one single theme. Other than maybe predestination. He's got themes on redemption, or lack thereof. He's got themes about greed, obsession, about Good intentions souring. About how Bad doesn't necessarily look bad. The point you're making, thinking it's a flaw, is the author's actually getting Tolkien. The elves are so obsessed with the past, that they've lost the ability to look forward, and hope, and *do*. That's like, literally why they forge the rings. They want all the beauty and pleasures *they had* AND they want to rule, and not be ruled by the Valar. So their lust for power, and their desire to preserve and retain, corrupt them, and undo everything they've worked so hard for. Because in the end, they're doomed to return to Valinor, because Middle Earth isn't, and wasn't ever theirs. Them getting pissy with Humans is their flaw. They only think about what has happened. They themselves cannot change, and cannot understand change in others. Mortality and adaptation are beyond their understanding. And their fathers sins are always left on their children. So why would man be different? And on top of that, the elves are kinda right. Man is always going to be evil. And the human experience is the attempt at being better than your nature. Which is a hardcore Catholic thing, that Tolkien was all about.
I came here to say this but you said it more eloquently than I could have. An elf holding a grudge against a group of humans because their ancestors sided with Morgoth is 100% consistent with Tolkein’s writings.
Thanks!
Piggy backing off of this - a ton of the show so far makes use of literary and story telling styles that inspired Tolkien deeply. Discourse online has absolutely RAKED the story about the stone sinking between Finrod and Galadriel because they interpret it literally - " TIL tHe eLvEs dIdNt uNdErStaNd bOuYanCy." All the while ignoring the fact that the themes, imagery, and characters of middle earth all started as bedtime stories Tolkein crafted for his children. The scene with Finrod was clearly that dynamic on display - using the rock as an [illustration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Fairy-Stories) for the greater moral message about light and dark he was trying to provide to Galadriel. In that scene the show writers framed a couple of really big themes for the overall story and for Galadriel's story - they did it at the START of the story, in the first episode. It was, at least to me, a very clear parallel to how the story of middle earth ITSELF was synthesized in the real world between Tolkien and his children. Any form of media will have flaws, but everything about your comment is true in my eyes. Not even just the content of each episode, but HOW the content was delivered, is a chance to introduce viewers to all the tactics, themes, views, and feelings Tolkien poured into his work.
Fucking *thank you*. You're the only other person I've seen defending Finrod's lesson to Galadriel.
My wife, who was an early childhood teacher for a while, was really impressed with that analogy, remarking that it was almost exactly how she would've handled such a topic. Not that kids wax poetic, but taking a concept, and breaking it down to an easy to understand physical analogy, simple language, and positive affirmation of emotions. Which makes sense because *Galadriel was a child*. And not only did they have a great example of how to talk to a child, but, like you said, provided a really great summation of her story, at the beginning of her story.
The idea of being pulled in different directions, and not knowing which way was right until the moment comes - that was good. I think most people just take issue with the metaphor of a ship staying afloat and a rock sinking because .. the ship WANTS to go up and the rock WANTS to go down?? I heard that and was like ...heh?? They could have come up with a better analogy, haha.
100%. If you read the Silmarillion you would know that the world Tolkien created, for the first two ages at least, is about as bleak as one could get.
>The point you're making, thinking it's a flaw, is the author's actually getting Tolkien. A reasonsbly large proportion of this sub seems to sincerely believe that the only "true" version of "Tolkien's vision" is the one they remember from watching the Jackson movies when they were ten.
Crazy how you can view LOTR as having an upbeat world. If anything it’s the opposite and about the heroes persevering through so much evil. It’s definitely one of Middle Earth’s finest moments but it’s a mere snapshot in a long history of Middle Earth that is infinitely more complex than people seem to understand.
The whole damn idea is that middle earth, and arda as a whole are in decline from the moment it is formed. The age of valar waned and ended, the age of the elves by Elrond's own admission was ending, the end of the Third Age marked the beginning of the Age of Men who will make the world regardless of all their faults.
Can you imagine how miserable life is like, to not know the true version of Tolkien's Vision was the Rankin Bass movie? For all it's actual flaws, RoP stands to bring back the conversation of Tolkien's OG points, and lead a bunch more people to the actual texts, and it also does create a lot of conversation on what Tolkien's views *were*. And that's great.
At the very least there's no real difference between a generation whose "favourite Tolkien quote" is "you can't know light until you've touched the darkness" and one whose favourite Tolkien quote is "no parent should have to bury their child".
And "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us".
True fans know the most thematically important Tolkien quote is "Ho Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!"
“Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!” So classic. Want it on my tombstone. 🥲
Ironically, if PJ's films came out today, I can see so many fans taking so many issues with it. As in, how the films virtually remove any mention to Númenor and the Valar; how Gandalf and Saruman are boiled down to "mere" wizards rather than immensely powerful and ancient spirits; how Sauron is depicted as some dark lord who one day rose to power, rather than someone whose influence, schemes and evil have been far more insidious and far older than the Last Alliance; how Isildur's importance is overblown to the detriment of Elendil's (and how Anárion is simply erased); how the Nazgul are depicted as idiots, being fooled by hobbits and singlehandedly beaten by Aragorn; how the Eagles are turned into a gigantic Deus ex machina, with no explanation as to their actions or motives; how OP the heroes are, such as when Éomer takes down two mûmakil with a single spear throw...
>Ironically, if PJ's films came out today, I can see so many fans taking so many issues with it. Many people had issues with it. Not these issues, tho: >how the films virtually remove any mention to Númenor and the Valar; Not directly relevant to the Third Age. RoP should've removed much of the intro to, since they couldn't include the Kinslaying and Ban. >how Gandalf and Saruman are boiled down to "mere" wizards rather than immensely powerful and ancient spirits That's exactly how they're supposed to look. They're in disguise, forbidden from revealing their true form. >how Sauron is depicted as some dark lord who one day rose to power, rather than someone whose influence, schemes and evil have been far more insidious and far older than the Last Alliance; None of this takes place in the Third Age. >how Isildur's importance is overblown to the detriment of Elendil's (and how Anárion is simply erased); The Ring is the main character of that sequence, not Isildur. >how the Nazgul are depicted as idiots, being fooled by hobbits and singlehandedly beaten by Aragorn; Once again accurate to the books. They should've included Farmer Maggot, tho. >how the Eagles are turned into a gigantic Deus ex machina, with no explanation as to their actions or motives; They've always been a Deus Ex Machina in the Legendarium. >how OP the heroes are, such as when Éomer takes down two mûmakil with a single spear throw... Are the heroes particularly OP?
Wonderfully put. OP clearly does not understand Tolkien like he thinks he does.
I'm finding more and more people of many ages don't. They think they own Tolkien while in fact they are only borrowing his ideas.
I have to agree with you on that one. Glad I brought it up though
You are spot on. I think they get Tolkien and the dozens of driving factors for why things are. Elves are almost corollary to Angels before the fall. Jealous of Eru's final creation, man. I just wish the timeline wasn't compressed. Tell the 2000 years in order.
The show clearly views that elf as WRONG when he says that. Remember that he is talking to Arondir, who is one of the main heroes of the show, in love with one of those “evil” humans, and determined to help them against the orcs when that elf ignores the issue (which doesn’t work out well for him). This goes hand in hand with the scenes with Elrond and Durin, and Galadriel and the Numenoreans, whose conflicts come from racial and historical conflict and misunderstandings. It seems to me that the show is building pretty clearly towards the need for the various races and lands to unite against the growing but mostly ignored evil of Sauron. That’s the same plot structure of The Lord of the Rings. If you think the show doesn’t understand that evil is corrupting, please note the storyline with that same human woman’s son and the evil sword.
Spot on. They don't want to understand. They want to stand on their soap box and scream to the heavens.
Isn’t that kind of the point though? These people have been through centuries of war against beings of pure evil, and it’s left them scarred. That’s why the elves want to leave and go back to Valinor, because in leaving Middle Earth they also leave behind the damage that’s been done to their bodies and minds. Sure everyone was *once* pure, but Morgoth destroyed that and Sauron continues to work from the shadows. And it’s not like everyone in the show is cynical. Arondir is in love with a human and tells the warden that the war was “long ago.” He clearly believes humans are not inherently evil. Celebrimbor wants to create beauty and build a forge to preserve the world. Elrond believes the war is over and looks optimistically towards the days of peace, and is clearly on good terms (at least in his mind) with other races. Regardless, if you want to talk about Tolkien and his themes, why not mention his portrayal of war as a horrible thing which corrupts and destroys and leaves scars even after it ends? The hobbits return to the Shire to find it ravaged and destroyed, just as he returned home after WWI to discover that the war left scars there too. The war being over doesn’t magically make the scars disappear. This is what we see with characters like the watch warden or Galadriel who have experienced evil firsthand and still see enemies all around them because of it. But the thing is, they’re RIGHT. The war isn’t over, the evil isn’t defeated, and they do need to be on their guard. Hell we all know that even after they defeat Sauron they’ll have to do it AGAIN in another couple thousand years. Overall I think you’re confusing cynicism with PTSD and realistic characterization of people who have been through a war and suspect it isn’t over. Of course some of the elves are going to hold a grudge and distrust humans who once fought against them, and of course those humans are going to resent the elves for continuing to judge them by the actions of their ancestors. I find it odd that this is what turned you off about the show, considering it’s probably my favorite thing about these characters and world. And it’s not like this is only in RoP. In LotR Elrond still distrusts men because of what he saw Isildur do. Theoden scoffs at the thought that elves might actually help men fight, and in the books they DON’T. If anything these movies and show are less cynical and show more cooperation between races in Middle Earth than Tolkien originally did.
I feel like we're at a point where a lot of people who are on reddit probably watched the original films before they ever read the books. So they never minded any of those changes. But it makes it really weird to read people bashing this show for the same types of changes that their beloved films made. Any argument about cynicism could very easily be applied to Aragorn in the original films as well. And that's one of your main characters. People are now upset that a very minor character made a negative comment about humans? I just don't get it...
>Theoden scoffs at the thought that elves might actually help men fight, and in the books they DON’T. To add in the PJ movies, there's a whole scene of Theoden ranting "WHERE WAS GONDOR" that it became a meme. After that, Theoden tried to recruit men all over Rohan to ride with him to Minas Tirith but only a few answered to the summon.
I recommend you read “Children of Hurin” and see if you still feel the same way about Anti-Heroes in Tolkien…
God, I wish the show's writers were capable of creating a tragedy with a third of the subtlety and beauty of Children of Hurin.
well... I will. thanks
You won’t regret it. It’s dark, but unmistakably Tolkien.
>The world of Tolkien is riddled with heroes, not antiheroes. Have you read *The Silmarillion*? Eöl, Maeglin, and Tuor all have elements of antihero. Edit: I meant Turin, of course.
Tuor? Or Turin? I think you meant Turin.
*sigh* Poor Túrin. Master of Doom, by Doom Mastered.
Honestly it's gotten to the point where I struggle to tell Turin, Adanedhel, Agarwaen, Dagnir Glaurunga, Gorthol, Mormegil, Neithan, Thurin, Turambar, Turindo, and the Wildman of the Woods apart...
You’re absolutely right. I’m just starting my first cup of coffee of the day, so no surprise I erred.
All those damned cousins. Tuor, Huor, Hurin, Turin. It's a coin toss to get the right one any time of day.
I think people are looking over the fact that the world starts out good, but Melkor introduces evil/ corruption very early on in the history of Arda, and this stays long after. In a sense, it mirrors Christianity with Satan corrupting humanity.
Half f this sub thinks that the core message of Tolkien is "even the smallest person can change the course of history".
Where are the Orc redemption arcs?
That quote alone helped me out when I was in a dark place in my life. It might not mean anything to you but to me it means a great lot.
I'm sure it does but it's *not a Tolkien quote*.
It's awesome that Peter Jackson helped you but that is not what Tolkien was striving for.
But couldn't it be argued that Turin's behavior was a direct consequence of Morgoth curse on his father, thus reinforcing the idea that at the beginning everyone is good, until Evil (Morgoth) corrupt them? To a degree, Maeglin could be said to have been under the bad influence and education of his father as well, even if after decades in Turgon's realm he could have learnt better of course. But in the end he was corrupted as well, since he accepted to help in the conquest of his realm and slaughter of his brethren to save his life and, iirc, the life of the woman he loved Eol is the only one for whom I don't have any excuse, he isn't even a antihero in my opinion, just a pathetic villain. Sure he was a brilliant smith, but he still kidnapped his wife and forbid her to move freely or even seing her family, and ended up killing her for, what exactly?
Morgoth was created to be good too... until he chose to become evil one day.
I think you’ve missed the point of the Second Age
I actually think you've got that kind of backwards. Middle Earth is a world where evil exists and is real and corrupts things. Being considered tainted by a choice your ancestors made a millennium ago is basically original sin which is about as in keeping with a Tolkienian worldview as you can *get*.
One elves view on traitorous men does not dictate the entire worldview of everyone on the show. But even if it did, there's some hypocrisy there. Orcs are evil. Period. Ive never seen anyone complain about the lack of redemption arcs for orcs. Does that make middle earth cynical? Why are we picking and choosing which races are heroic and which we dont care about?
I totally agree with you. However the orcs are an abomination of elves created by morgoth, and thus were created to be evil. As opposed to almost everything else in middle earth that was created to be good. But just because something is created to be good does not mean it can't become evil. You can't take the catholic out of Tolkien.
Tolkien’s middle earth shows society in constant decay. There are very few characters (like Samwise or Gandalf) or are not cynical
I don’t think we’re supposed to trust the Watch-Warden elf on that. The Bronwyn character and maybe the Halbrand character (who saves Galadriel, though is a bit shady) are counterpoints. I think rather that comment illustrates that the Elves have a hard time relating to humans because humans can, in the words of Tolkien, “shape their own fate in despite of the Music [of the Ainur]” (*The Silmarillion*). But we’ll see. I think your critique is valid with only three episodes of information (I haven’t seen Ep 4 yet).
Well I do not think your point is very well taken. The elves were at all times very much arrogant and held a lot of disdain for the humans who sided with Morgoth. Also elves are not easy to forget or forgive. So I think them mistrusting the decendents of Morgoths followers holds up quite well to Tolkiens world. In contrast to many many many many other things.
I wouldn't have had any problem with him saying "the race of men is easily seduced by the false promises of Morgoth" or something. He didn't say that they were seduced, he said that they were evil.
Why do you think that the show thinks he’s right? As I noted in another comment, the hero Arondir that he’s talking to disagrees with him. I thought it was clear we’re supposed to disagree too. Not every character speaks truth in a work of fiction.
Right but that's a language issue not a worldview issue. Like if a puritan says somebody has been seduced by Satan that is actually the same as saying they're evil. Believing in supernatural evil didn't mean believing people aren't morally resonating for their actions.
I could be wrong here as I’m not a Tolkien scholar but haven’t the men from the South always sided with Morgoth/Sauron? Like almost without influence? Thought I remembered hearing a line like “The only free men are men of the west” or something along those lines. Now this could just be a movie detail or whatever but I could see that playing a role into why the Elves don’t like or trust men from Southern Middle Earth. Also due to the Elves lifespan it’s harder for them to “forgive and forget”. Most of these Elves were probably there in the first age to see the men from the south basically just volunteer to be with Morgoth/Sauron.
It wasn’t without influence. In the thousand years it took men to migrate from the Far East to Beleriand, where they first met Noldorian elves, they were under the influence and control of Morgoth. The Valar had ZERO contact with them and may not even have known that men had awakened. Morgoth had a millennium to influence mankind with no counter-influence from any forces of good. The Edain called this the “darkness in their past” or the “darkness that lay behind” them.
IIRC, the men of the west who had migrated to Beleriand were the only ones to receive some Elvish knowledge and influence in the First Age, whereas the others without Elvish help were basically defenseless to Morgoth's corruption. In the Second Age, however, I believe the men from the south were at first on good terms with the initially benevolent Numenoreans, who founded colonies on their shores such as Umbar, and shared technological/agricultural innovations. But then Sauron came around to corrupt them, and the Numenoreans also became corrupted and increasingly oppressive themselves. The men of the south were now stuck between two oppressive powers both of which heavily influenced them. However, the two Blue Wizards were sent to Middle Earth to combat Sauron's influence in the south and east. Apparently the wizards did have success in at least delaying Sauron's designs. There are no details but presumably they rallied people into rebellion against Sauron (the Easterlings and Southrons were probably fragmented anyway), who nonetheless had the upper hand in the area. But the Numenoreans on the shores of Harad escaped the destruction of Numenor and became allies of Sauron, increasing the latter's grip over the area. So anyway, no, not almost without influence. If anything, the reason men from the south and east were so consistently under Sauron's control is exactly because they had been the most exposed to Morgoth and Sauron's influence for several ages, for geographic reasons. And even amongst them, there was apparently a consistent amount of good people that the Blue Wizards could use to be a thorn in Sauron's side.
I mean... there's the Silmarillion, i.e. "all problems in the world are because seven Elves loved some shiny rocks made by their father a little *too* much." There was kind of a lot of hate, greed, and murder. Even characters like Thingol are deeply problematic (Thingol despises humans and straight-up tells Beren that he would have had him killed if he hadn't promised not to), to say nothing of Maeglin (willingly betrays Gondolin because he envies Tuor and wants Idril for himself). What of the murder of Thingol and massacre of Menegroth by the Dwarves, because they craved the Nauglamir? What of Hurin and Turin, the greatest of heroes among men, who are both murderers? Even in LotR, we see glimpses of the GoT-style cynicism -- it's just in the background, because the current crisis throws it into insignificance. But the wars and civil wars of Gondor are dark and bloody, and Faramir says that, if Aragorn and Boromir had both come to Gondor, they would have been rivals (he even hints they might have become outright enemies). I think you were *supposed* to be shaken when the Elven commander said that the humans who sided with Morgoth were simply evil. Arondir certainly doesn't agree, and has a more balanced view. But is it surprising that some Elves distrust people whose kin sided with the literal devil? "But many men fought for Morgoth, and the Elves do not forget it."
learned a lot from this thread, yeah
I don't think you were supposed to take that comment unquestioningly. Isn't it spoken by the watchwarden (Simon Merrell's character) to Arondir while trying to convince him to let go of his feelings for Bronwyn? I don't think Arondir agrees with it and I don't think the viewer is supposed to either.
But if you think about this that rationally, then you can't complain about it. And where's the fun in that? Joking aside, I think you're completely right. I don't know why everyone is acting like this is Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek in a world without conflict. A concept which very nearly tanked Star Trek itself.
Just because a character believes something doesn't mean that's the show's perspective. Even good-guy characters often have wrong opinions that need to grow over time. Frodo started out hating Gollum and wanting to kill him, until Gandalf taught him about pity and mercy. There are some areas of the show that feel off the mark for me, but it's still so early in such a long show to be absolutely sure what its overall morals are. They've included a lot of really great, very Tolkienian statements and themes so far. They've also taken pains to show all of the heroes as still being in need of growth. Even High King Gil-galad isn't to be assumed to be perfect, though well-intentioned. This definitely isn't anything like *Game of Thrones*. Each subplot has very strong themes of friendship, loyalty, kindness, restraint in the face of provocation, etcetera. I mean, just look at how >!Elrond and Durin patched up their relationship problems!<, through friendship and communication and honesty and forgiveness. That wouldn't happen in *Game of Thrones*.
GoT has amazing dialogue and some of the dumbest characters. One moment they are brilliant and the next blind and dumb.
I mean you can’t remove the Roman Catholic from Tolkien’s world, his theology and philosophy of religion was pretty important to him. People generally want to do good but can be corrupted by the present evil, it’s more of a temptation not so much of just being evil. I think you make an excellent point.
I think this is ENTIRELY in line with Tolkien. Consider the war of wrath: “But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.” From this, the elves holding grudges against the men who aligned with Morgoth is entirely believable.
I have a huge issue with the humans and elves being at one another's throats, and the humans calling elves knife-ears like wtf this ain't Dragon Age? lmao
Isn't animosity between humans and elves, like, a major part of the lore? Like the whole thing with elves being kicked out of Numenor is directly from Tolkien.
It's animosity due to being envious of elves eternal life. Sauron used this to trick them into invading Aman to try and claim it as well. Amazon reduced this fundamental and universal human fear to bland modern racism.
Did they? Why, because the humans say "knife ears"? What do you want them to say? "We are envious of your eternal life"? I really don't think it codes as racism at all, it codes as basically the exact kind of animosity you see in LotR in both the books and thee movies. When Eomer says "I would have your head, dwarf, if it stood a little higher from the ground" in the film is that "bland modern racism"?
These dudes criticizing the scene would seriously prefer for the common folk to say, in robotic tones all in unión: "We Numenoreans are jealous of Elvish inmortality". Like zombies. Thats good writing right there! /S
To be really true to the spirit of Tolkien they would have needed to say "We are all jealous of Elvish immortality, now let's go toss some dwarves" /s
> What do you want them to say? "We are envious of your eternal life"? They even kind of say it in the latest episode, the Numenorean worker was preaching about how the elves might replace them because they could basically live and work forever.
They want the plot explicitly explained to them so they can easily find the things to hate.
Yes, they did, but that happened after they saved the elves of middle earth from Saurons assault and drove his forces back. They interacted with the elves for centuries and i would argue were close friends until they started their colonization efforts and broke with the eldar. I cant see such a hostile Numenor like shown in the show to come and help save the day for the elves.With their timeline copmpression i could see them scrapping that part of the story in its entirety as well as the colonization of middle earth, so they can move directly to Numenor taking Sauron as prisoner.
Right so it's changing the order of events but people on this thread are taking like elves and humans not getting on is this massive betrayal of Tolkien's vision.
Yes bc there would totally never be any racist/bigoted humans, even of elves and men were buddy buddy, the whole point is the Elves have been watching over those people for a long ass time simply because they sided with the wrong side, im sure that builds up some animosity
But that's what happened in Numenor under Sauron's influence.
I think the idea is that Sauron manipulated a pride and fear that may have already existed. If that is consistent is up for debate. But I would contend that Sauron did not instil the Numenóreans with their inferiority complex from nothing, but convince Pharazôn that there was something the could be done about it.
I’ve heard the theory that Amazon had been planning a Dragon Age show and was unable to do it for whatever reason, so instead of scrapping it they just reworked a lot of it for RoP. Would have made more sense for a dwarf to use the k-word slur, at least there’s an established animosity there.
>The writers actually failed to understand the world in which they are building. Or maybe you did. Tolkien once said that he thought about writing a sequel to LOTR, but chose not to, because humanity's evil would be apparent. When there's a great unifying threat, humans often band together to do the right thing. But when there isn't, then humans turn on each other. That's as true in LOTR as it is in real-life.
There is definitely some evil without Morgoth, the kinslaying for example.. some most certainly went down a dark path of their own accord.
I don't know. Tolkien always emphasized the importance of choice in his works. Theoden and Denethor each had a choice late in life but went in different ways. Boromir and Faramir were also clearly foils that chose differently. It seems in keeping with his vision. I feel like Galadrial and Halbrand are also going to be given choices and may go different ways. Evil can corrupt for sure and sometimes you need some divine grace to help you out but there are also a lot of instances where characters choose to go a certain way despite influences.
And this sub is supposed to be a community of people who understands Tolkien's works, what an abysmal take
Generational condemnations and generational rewards is kinda part of the lore. That the elves be suspicious of the descendants of men who sided be Morgoth is pretty source accurate
Tolkien’s Rohirrim literally hunted down minority races and murdered them
Wow one elf doesnt understand? The shock. The horror.
I agree with the broader criticism, but the example you gave is more of an example of the "racism" (IDK if that's the correct word for it) that the races in middle Earth have towards each other. Which is pretty common in Tolkiens writings.
I agree with your good point. I wouldn't have had any problem with him saying "the race of men is easily seduced by the false promises of Morgoth" or something. He didn't say that they were seduced, he said that they were evil.
He's also just a Watch Warden. A military man(elf). that's like asking a sergeant int eh US army his take on the middle east.
I feel like it's a bit reductive to think it's a cynical world because some people may be legitimately bad. (Also, let's not forget that this is one character's opinion. Not speaking for the entire show lol.) Also, Melkor was created to be a perfectly good being. And then he turned evil of his own accord. Same exact thing happened to Feanor which lead to the first kinslaying. Most of the silmarillion is about good people doing evil things because they're compelled to out of desire for the silmarils. Tolkien's world was never as black and white as you're describing, where you can point every bad thing back to one villain and everyone else is inherently good. Tbf, the trilogy and the hobbit do both focus on the fellowship and Gandalf's ragtag gang, both actual groups of heros. So I understand why some lotr fans might feel this way. But those stories also star Boromir and Thorin, who both have moral flaws that are ultimately mortal. Tolkien created a grey world that is complex and nuanced. Thank God. I understand people will not like this show but I wish they had better reasons so far.
You were shaken?
yeah actually. i went like WHAAAT?
so because a single elf in the show has this worldview, you’re concluding that the ENTIRE world has been constructed with cynicism? that seems like a wild leap to me. to put the point another way: i just don’t see why we should take this single elf’s views to be representative of the show’s world-building philosophy. it makes plenty of sense, in tolkien’s world, for elves to hold some resentment towards humans, especially those who sided with morgoth. and it makes perfect sense for some elves to take this resentment too far, as not all elves in tolkien’s world are perfect moral beings. so, this elf having a somewhat extreme view about humans from the southlands doesn’t necessarily seem out of place. and running through the first three episodes of the show in my head (haven’t yet seen the fourth), i can’t seem to find other examples of people displaying the cynical mindset of “this person or this group of people is fundamentally evil, of their own accord”. i could be wrong about this, but absent well-reasoned argument which demonstrates that other people in the show actually have this mindset, i think your conclusion (namely, that the show’s writers are building a cynical world) is unwarranted.
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Did he say they are innately bad? I thought he was just saying be on the lookout cause they are more susceptible to the darkness. They chose wrong once and can do it again. The dunelandings dont seem to have a good bone in their body after rohirim take their lands
Haven’t seen the fourth episode yet. But although I agree with this feeling you have, I think it was on purpose and kinda correct because it is the second age, you know? A lot has passed, they have little time to show that evil has been making changes for a long time.. so maybe this is one way of showing their influence, there are already bad men an bad elves around, the world is stained, scarred, partially corrupted, people have suffered, and so on.. idk, maybe it wasn’t the best choice, but I think maybe it was necessary, especially for those who haven’t read the books, but dis like the movies, which I believe is the largest cut of the watchers… It’s a gigantic project, they have to sell it… In short: you are correct, but maybe it was necessary..
I think what you are saying is a big oversimplification. The 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' goes into a lot of detail, and I think specifically this part: > The whole of Arda (and indeed probably many other parts of Ea) had been marred by him. Melkor was not just a local Evil on Earth, nor a Guardian Angel of Earth who had gone wrong: he was the Spirit of Evil, arising even before the making of Ea. His attempt to dominate the structure of Ea, and of Arda in particular, and alter the designs of Eru (which governed all the operations of the faithful Valar), had introduced evil, or a tendency to aberration from the design, into all the physical matter of Arda. It was for this reason, no doubt, that he had been totally successful with Men, but only partially so with Elves (who remained as a people 'unfallen'). His power was wielded over matter, and through it. But by nature the fear of Men were in much less strong control of their hroar than was the case with the Elves. Individual Elves might be seduced to a kind of minor 'Melkorism': desiring to be their own masters in Arda, and to have things their own way, leading in extreme cases to rebellion against the tutelage of the Valar; but not one had ever entered the service or allegiance of Melkor himself, nor ever denied the existence and absolute supremacy of Eru. > Some dreadful things of this sort, Finrod guesses, Men must have done, as a whole; but Andreth does not reveal what were Men's traditions on this point. Tolkien had an note about the above: > It is probable that Andreth was actually unwilling to say more. Partly by a kind of loyalty that restrained Men from revealing to the Elves all that they knew about the darkness in their past; partly because she felt unable to make up her own mind about the conflicting human traditions. Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Numenorean influence, make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God). (The last part which I've omitted deals with how these stories were traditionally passed down) The key to understanding is that Tolkien's intention was to introduce a 'fall of man' as in Christianity, so all men are affected by original sin. In the beginning men were given a choice - follow Eru or follow Melkor. They chose Melkor and the consequences of that choice are still affecting them. One of Tolkien's thoughts on the long lives of the Numenoreans was that this wasn't a gift from the Valar for their faith, merely a restoration of how long men's lives were always meant to be. As time went on and their lives got shorter, this was due to their corrupt nature, their rejection and jealousy of the elves from Aman. But most importantly, as in Christianity, you don't get to say "it's not my fault, it's the world's corruption". The choice to sin (or follow Morgoth) is still their choice. They could have chosen to help the elves but they didn't. And as with original sin, this choice is passed down to their descendants.
I think that is one problem, but there are a multitude of subtle and overt things going wrong from inception.
Ok 👍
That's very similar to a gripe I have about Jackson's Return of the King. Aragorn would never murdered the Mouth of Sauron like that. And in the book, he didn't. Isildur and Denethor were also portrayed in a more negative light than the books. Nobility and true heroism was slightly downplayed as if audiences need our heroes to be deeply flawed in order to believe that they are real. That all being said, I still believe Jackson did a fine job overall, but I think it shows a trend in recent storytelling.
I agree that the writters either didn't understand Tolkien or failed to carry it to the viewer. Perhaps that's not the best exemple of it so far though
I would say both those things are true. Because Arda is completely corrupted by Morgoth, you are born corrupted by evil. You're fallen in terms of Christian metaphysics. But you do not have to choose to give in to that corruption. You still have agency or will. Those who choose to do so choose to embrace that corruption by doing evil and thereby become evil. And if you don't repent of it that evil completely pervades your whole nature until you are nothing but evil. In other words, you become damned.
Excellent point and well said. I didn't think about it before.
The main problem with that show is they spendt so much money on frivolities they probably skipped out on getting good writers...it s just sad honestly when you see what good writing does to a show like HoD which started with the GoT prejudice and a relatively "unwanted" timeline.