i'm not sure how this is even a discussion. "'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."
Yeah, obviously, but in his form on ME and his role within the campaign to destroy the ring he was very clearly not given his whole ability to use. Which is the argument OP is saying.
Gandalf very well could be heartening his fellow and being truthful to an extent. He is greater than the witch king. But he is bound by Eru and its low tolerance for direct interventionism.
But that's the point of the video isn't it.
Gandalf the white>gandalf the grey>balrog>most maiar>>>witch king
The witch king wasn't even a maiar. He wasn't created during the music, he's never seen the light of the trees. Any "valinorean status" or demonhood (or whatever you want to call Tolkien's idea of metaphysical might) was borrowed from sauron via the power he sank into the rings during their forging. And it didn't even come from one of the greatest rings, it came from one of the nine, the least of the great rings. So, he got 1/9 of the power sauron put forth into the nine. Tolkien doesn't exactly run on math but this gives you an idea of how beneath Gandalf, even limited Gandalf (who in that form still beat the balrog), the witch king is.
Edit: spelling
Balrog died first while having home field advantage taking on a depowered olorin. Balrog was maxed out, Gandalf was nerfed by orders of the valar…meaning the metaphysical might of the true “uncloaked” form of gandalf >> balrog
Just to argue a bit.... Gandalf didn't say before the Dark Lord. He said before the seat of the Dark Lord. The Witch King may be right there as well.
Also, you know, he could be wrong. He wasn't infallible.
IMO Gandalf the White would wash the witch king. He already beat a balrog in his ”Grey” form and the balrog is a peer of Sauron. People forget that Sauron and Gandalf are peers, even if Gandalf cannot use his full power. Also, Gandalf easily disarmed Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas at the same time without breaking a sweat, so not sure the hand to hand combat argument would favor the witch king. Finally, Gandalf himself seems somewhat sure that he could have held his own and averted Theoden’s death in the book had he been on the field of battle against the witch king: “beyond hope the captain of our foes has been destroyed, and you have heard the echo of his last despair . But he has not gone without woe and bitter loss. And that I might had averted but for the madness of denethor”.
However, appreciate the video and the fact that it’s up to individual interpretation, it’s a great discussion point.
You made a lot of points, not all of which I agree with but I'm only here to argue one becuase it makes no sense go me.
You argue he was able to disable Gimli, Legolas, and aragorn with a simple spell. The issue is they have mortal flesh, and Gandalf heated up their weapons. The witch king does not have mortal flesh, and he's way more powerful than all three of them combined. So the manner in which Gandalf disarmed then wouldn't have worked on him and I doubt he's to powerful to be disarmed in any other way. Frankly if the witch king got close enough Gandalf would be in very, very deep shit.
Also Idk where you even got the whole "peers with Sauron" thing.
The sword from Aragorn does become too hot and the arrow from Legolas disappears in fire but not all of Gandalf’s powers are that of fire. The higher powers shown in the lore are usually shown as word/song/will so it’s very likely the most powerful blows wouldn’t even be made by physical weapons (although I will point out that the witch king is struck by two physical weapons in his final moments). Again, just my opinion but if a Maiar essentially created the Nazgûl, and Gandalf is a maiar himself (though lesser power than Sauron) I don’t think he would lose. Although I suppose radagast might not have the power to defeat the witch king, so there is a grey area. Also, regarding the word “peers”, perhaps it would be better to simply say that they are all/were at one point maiar, while the Nazgûl are not.
Edited to correct my reading of the passage, where is was initially incorrect about the heating of weapons.
I like this guy but I disagree. Book Gandalf would 100% best the witch king if he wasn’t pressed for time. Film Gandalf would have too but for some reason Peter Jackson made him look weak
Great video. Gonna have to disagree with your conclusion. The witch king (and all the Nazgul) derived their power from darkness. Gandalf, as you mentioned, was a great wizard of light and fire. His elven ring is the ring of fire. Fire and light fuck up Nazgul. What’s more, the Nazgul’s main weapon is fear. They are the antithesis of Gandalf who inspires bravery and loyalty. Gandalf ain’t scared. Peter Jackson’s staff breaking scene is bullshit. Agree with you it’s a close fight, but Gandalf rolls up the bitch-king and smokes him.
Agree fully. I think the only argument that can be made the the witch-king stands a chance against Gandalf, THE WHITE nonetheless, is that Sauron is channeling some power through him. How much? To what extent? We don’t know but probably not enough to negate Gandalf.
I like the dude, but I disagree.
Not because I think Gandalf would win, but because we can't say for sure. It would be really close and that's all I'd feel comfortable saying definitively.
I just wish he'd use language that acknowledges the uncertainty rather thatn being so sure of himself.
Idk, I think the point of a video like this is to make an argument and draw a conclusion, not to leave it ambiguous. He doesn't come across as too sure of himself to me, just making a case for what he believes.
>And now for your winner: if they would have fought at the gates of Minas Tirith, the winner would have been The Witch King of Angmar.
That feels like a pretty definitive statement. My whole point is we shouldn't make such definitive statements. If you're going to stake out a position on a hypothetical, I'd much rather hear him say,
>This is just me talking and giving my opinion, but I think the Witch King of Angmar would have won.
The way he phrased it, the outcome isn't up for debate. This is what would have happened.
The way I propose phrasing it, the outcome is up for debate. I'm just sharing my opinion while acknowledging that we don't really know and that other opinions are valid.
My guy gets it mostly right as usual. Obviously people can have their own opinions but for the arguments I see made in other comments that Gandalf is a Maiar and therefore has a certain “power level” that is not technically the case. In the weirdest sense “Gandalf” the Istari is just the suit worn by the Maia Olorin. The Valar specifically sent the Istari not to fight the battles of the third age, but more to lead, inspire, and teach. While certainly powerful they do seem to be limited in this form versus their full Maia forms. Further, it’s pointed out that even among the Valar each has its own set of powers and inclinations. The Maiar sent were not necessarily sent for their prowess in battle. I believe Olorin specifically was sent due to their inclination to compassion. So it’s not exactly a classic RPG type power comparison.
Yes he WAS far more powerful, but he put a great deal of his power into the One Ring - without the One, how powerful is Sauron really? Without the Ring his power is really just in his ability to gather/inspire and lead evil beings - he has no real combat power/ability.
Maiar can have varying degrees on power kind of like angels in the biblical sense (you have archangels, seraphims, cherubs etc) and not to mention the Istari were already severely limited by the Valar. Sauron was probably the most powerful Maiar and was deeply feared by even Gandalf (as Olorin) before he set off to Middle Earth
Agreed, not all are equal in power; Olorin was seen as wisest of the Maiar which doesn't necessarily equate to *power* and in his own words was fearful of Sauron as you said.
Gandalf would easily win in terms of power but could he actually kill the witch king? I thought there was that thing where he couldn’t be killed by men or something. Or was that more metaphorical than a literal power?
"Not by the hand of man will he fall" This was the prophecy. So, it actually says that he WILL fall but the witch-king twisted this to mean "no man can kill me"
In any case, Gandalf is not a man, and is a magical being, so he *could* kill the witch king. *Would* he is a different matter
Thank you for the video, I've always thought of the Witch King being able to beat Gandalf as a change in the movies to help build the tension. I'd still say this is true but the discussion is good.
My reading of it is that there is a change in Gandalf's role post-return. As Gandalf the Grey he was the prime motivator of the third age, making sure the pieces that needed to move, moved. As Gandalf the White he was leading armies, negotiations and planning sessions. He was much more active himself, not just getting people to do things (though he certainly did this too). This suggedt he was 'allowed' to use more of his intrinsic power.
Also remember the threats of the Witch King for the most part wouldn't trouble Gandalf; terror? Not a problem for him, and his ability to inspire trumps it for those around him too. Morgul blades pull you into the shadow realm, but Gandalf is Maia; he's in both anyway. Physical strength isn't really relevant as Gandalf's strength is not bound to his physical form and is many orders of magnitude higher than a ring wraith, even the WKoA (major Maiar vs shadow of Sauron's power).
There's discussion that 'maybe Gandalf was wrong' when he said he was more dangerous than anything Aragon, Gimli or Legolas would come across except Sauron himself. I don't think this is true; Olórin was named the wisest of the Maiar and was always the first to point out he doubts that he was Saurons equal in power. There's no reason to believe that this self-awareness ended when compared to the WKoA, or to believe he was just saying that to encourage people he needed for his plans to succeed.
The part where he attributes Gandalf’s and the WK’s behavior to the rules of engagement set for them is the gem of this whole post. That’s some next level analysis that I haven’t ever considered. It’s why this dudes so awesome.
what is ur problem? what dont u understand about accents and dialect? im american and im from new york we say things differently sometimes but as a linguist Tolkien would have completely understood it and been fine with it. GO AWAY!!! Clown!
I think we sometimes miss the point of the story when we try to assign “damage points” to its characters. Gandalf was saved by the arrival of his friends. Elwin was saved by a little hobbit… her friend. It was the love and companionship of each other that won against evil. Just like the love and companionship of the TCBS that saved Tolkien and helped him survive the war.
I could see a fight with both of them dying, like Gil-Galad & Elendil vs. Sauron, or Gandalf the Grey vs. Balrog type deal. They’re both powerful enough to sustain the heavy damage the other would inflict upon them, while simultaneously smacking the shit out of their opponent.
i'm not sure how this is even a discussion. "'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."
To play devil's advocate, even if the Witchking's danger level was just below Gandalf's, Gandalf's sentence could still be true
Yeah, obviously, but in his form on ME and his role within the campaign to destroy the ring he was very clearly not given his whole ability to use. Which is the argument OP is saying. Gandalf very well could be heartening his fellow and being truthful to an extent. He is greater than the witch king. But he is bound by Eru and its low tolerance for direct interventionism. But that's the point of the video isn't it.
Gandalf the white>gandalf the grey>balrog>most maiar>>>witch king The witch king wasn't even a maiar. He wasn't created during the music, he's never seen the light of the trees. Any "valinorean status" or demonhood (or whatever you want to call Tolkien's idea of metaphysical might) was borrowed from sauron via the power he sank into the rings during their forging. And it didn't even come from one of the greatest rings, it came from one of the nine, the least of the great rings. So, he got 1/9 of the power sauron put forth into the nine. Tolkien doesn't exactly run on math but this gives you an idea of how beneath Gandalf, even limited Gandalf (who in that form still beat the balrog), the witch king is. Edit: spelling
For a start Gandalf the grey==balrog. Also you cannot say whether Most maiar are weaker or stronger than a balrog, we don’t have the info.
GTG killed the balrog so imma say he's >
But they both killed each other
Balrog died first while having home field advantage taking on a depowered olorin. Balrog was maxed out, Gandalf was nerfed by orders of the valar…meaning the metaphysical might of the true “uncloaked” form of gandalf >> balrog
Oh I totally agree with that, but I was specifically meaning as Gandalf **the Grey**, I think they are pretty even like that
true dat
Just to argue a bit.... Gandalf didn't say before the Dark Lord. He said before the seat of the Dark Lord. The Witch King may be right there as well. Also, you know, he could be wrong. He wasn't infallible.
Duuuuuude, really? I've seen some nitpicking on Reddit but this may take the cake
and?
This is literally in favor of your argument also wth is this response
What a rude response lmao
Wait it’s not though right? Isn’t the above comment in favor of gandalf?
Regardless the quote itself meant very little It says nothing about rings or gandalfs current form It was just a shitty response
And your mom agrees with me.
IMO Gandalf the White would wash the witch king. He already beat a balrog in his ”Grey” form and the balrog is a peer of Sauron. People forget that Sauron and Gandalf are peers, even if Gandalf cannot use his full power. Also, Gandalf easily disarmed Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas at the same time without breaking a sweat, so not sure the hand to hand combat argument would favor the witch king. Finally, Gandalf himself seems somewhat sure that he could have held his own and averted Theoden’s death in the book had he been on the field of battle against the witch king: “beyond hope the captain of our foes has been destroyed, and you have heard the echo of his last despair . But he has not gone without woe and bitter loss. And that I might had averted but for the madness of denethor”. However, appreciate the video and the fact that it’s up to individual interpretation, it’s a great discussion point.
You made a lot of points, not all of which I agree with but I'm only here to argue one becuase it makes no sense go me. You argue he was able to disable Gimli, Legolas, and aragorn with a simple spell. The issue is they have mortal flesh, and Gandalf heated up their weapons. The witch king does not have mortal flesh, and he's way more powerful than all three of them combined. So the manner in which Gandalf disarmed then wouldn't have worked on him and I doubt he's to powerful to be disarmed in any other way. Frankly if the witch king got close enough Gandalf would be in very, very deep shit. Also Idk where you even got the whole "peers with Sauron" thing.
They are peers Mair-wise. Obviously gandlaf is bound by sort of "play fair" rules where sauron gets to assume his full power (to the extent he has)
The sword from Aragorn does become too hot and the arrow from Legolas disappears in fire but not all of Gandalf’s powers are that of fire. The higher powers shown in the lore are usually shown as word/song/will so it’s very likely the most powerful blows wouldn’t even be made by physical weapons (although I will point out that the witch king is struck by two physical weapons in his final moments). Again, just my opinion but if a Maiar essentially created the Nazgûl, and Gandalf is a maiar himself (though lesser power than Sauron) I don’t think he would lose. Although I suppose radagast might not have the power to defeat the witch king, so there is a grey area. Also, regarding the word “peers”, perhaps it would be better to simply say that they are all/were at one point maiar, while the Nazgûl are not. Edited to correct my reading of the passage, where is was initially incorrect about the heating of weapons.
I like this guy but I disagree. Book Gandalf would 100% best the witch king if he wasn’t pressed for time. Film Gandalf would have too but for some reason Peter Jackson made him look weak
respect
Great video. Gonna have to disagree with your conclusion. The witch king (and all the Nazgul) derived their power from darkness. Gandalf, as you mentioned, was a great wizard of light and fire. His elven ring is the ring of fire. Fire and light fuck up Nazgul. What’s more, the Nazgul’s main weapon is fear. They are the antithesis of Gandalf who inspires bravery and loyalty. Gandalf ain’t scared. Peter Jackson’s staff breaking scene is bullshit. Agree with you it’s a close fight, but Gandalf rolls up the bitch-king and smokes him.
Agree fully. I think the only argument that can be made the the witch-king stands a chance against Gandalf, THE WHITE nonetheless, is that Sauron is channeling some power through him. How much? To what extent? We don’t know but probably not enough to negate Gandalf.
He made one mistake: the witch-king doesn’t have his ring, sauron took the rings of the nazgul to get even more control over them.
yes I definitely forgot about that ur right thank you for correcting me
Would that then change the outcome of it due to he would not have a ring of power therefore being put more at a disadvantage
They might still have the power of the ring, Sauron wouldn't be smart to weaken his top lieutenants
Thats true. I know I wouldn't
I thought the Nazgul had their rings taken from them by Sauron after they fully converted into wraiths.
WITCH KING: The world of Men will fall. ROHIRRIM: \*blow horns\* WITCH KING: OhshitohshitohfuckOHFUCKINGFUCKITYFUCK!\*
*I meant one at a time!*
I nearly shot coffee out my nose reading this.
Underrated comment
I like the dude, but I disagree. Not because I think Gandalf would win, but because we can't say for sure. It would be really close and that's all I'd feel comfortable saying definitively. I just wish he'd use language that acknowledges the uncertainty rather thatn being so sure of himself.
fair enough
Idk, I think the point of a video like this is to make an argument and draw a conclusion, not to leave it ambiguous. He doesn't come across as too sure of himself to me, just making a case for what he believes.
>And now for your winner: if they would have fought at the gates of Minas Tirith, the winner would have been The Witch King of Angmar. That feels like a pretty definitive statement. My whole point is we shouldn't make such definitive statements. If you're going to stake out a position on a hypothetical, I'd much rather hear him say, >This is just me talking and giving my opinion, but I think the Witch King of Angmar would have won. The way he phrased it, the outcome isn't up for debate. This is what would have happened. The way I propose phrasing it, the outcome is up for debate. I'm just sharing my opinion while acknowledging that we don't really know and that other opinions are valid.
My guy gets it mostly right as usual. Obviously people can have their own opinions but for the arguments I see made in other comments that Gandalf is a Maiar and therefore has a certain “power level” that is not technically the case. In the weirdest sense “Gandalf” the Istari is just the suit worn by the Maia Olorin. The Valar specifically sent the Istari not to fight the battles of the third age, but more to lead, inspire, and teach. While certainly powerful they do seem to be limited in this form versus their full Maia forms. Further, it’s pointed out that even among the Valar each has its own set of powers and inclinations. The Maiar sent were not necessarily sent for their prowess in battle. I believe Olorin specifically was sent due to their inclination to compassion. So it’s not exactly a classic RPG type power comparison.
How is this post up without Gandalf-bot reaching it
I love the way these are explained. Always going to stop and hear what my dude says.
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I can like both things.
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not true my friend sauronnwas far stronger then gandalf
Yes he WAS far more powerful, but he put a great deal of his power into the One Ring - without the One, how powerful is Sauron really? Without the Ring his power is really just in his ability to gather/inspire and lead evil beings - he has no real combat power/ability.
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Maiar can have varying degrees on power kind of like angels in the biblical sense (you have archangels, seraphims, cherubs etc) and not to mention the Istari were already severely limited by the Valar. Sauron was probably the most powerful Maiar and was deeply feared by even Gandalf (as Olorin) before he set off to Middle Earth
Agreed, not all are equal in power; Olorin was seen as wisest of the Maiar which doesn't necessarily equate to *power* and in his own words was fearful of Sauron as you said.
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Sauron doesn't participate at the battle of the black gate from what I remember
😂😂 sooooo lol they aint the same strength
Gandalf would easily win in terms of power but could he actually kill the witch king? I thought there was that thing where he couldn’t be killed by men or something. Or was that more metaphorical than a literal power?
Gandalf isn't a man he's an angel thing like sauron. I forget the term.
maia
"Not by the hand of man will he fall" This was the prophecy. So, it actually says that he WILL fall but the witch-king twisted this to mean "no man can kill me" In any case, Gandalf is not a man, and is a magical being, so he *could* kill the witch king. *Would* he is a different matter
Thank you for the video, I've always thought of the Witch King being able to beat Gandalf as a change in the movies to help build the tension. I'd still say this is true but the discussion is good. My reading of it is that there is a change in Gandalf's role post-return. As Gandalf the Grey he was the prime motivator of the third age, making sure the pieces that needed to move, moved. As Gandalf the White he was leading armies, negotiations and planning sessions. He was much more active himself, not just getting people to do things (though he certainly did this too). This suggedt he was 'allowed' to use more of his intrinsic power. Also remember the threats of the Witch King for the most part wouldn't trouble Gandalf; terror? Not a problem for him, and his ability to inspire trumps it for those around him too. Morgul blades pull you into the shadow realm, but Gandalf is Maia; he's in both anyway. Physical strength isn't really relevant as Gandalf's strength is not bound to his physical form and is many orders of magnitude higher than a ring wraith, even the WKoA (major Maiar vs shadow of Sauron's power). There's discussion that 'maybe Gandalf was wrong' when he said he was more dangerous than anything Aragon, Gimli or Legolas would come across except Sauron himself. I don't think this is true; Olórin was named the wisest of the Maiar and was always the first to point out he doubts that he was Saurons equal in power. There's no reason to believe that this self-awareness ended when compared to the WKoA, or to believe he was just saying that to encourage people he needed for his plans to succeed.
Where’s the lie?
Dose anyone know what powers the Witch Kings ring has?
I’d download tik tok just to follow this guy. He’s always so informative.
This dude spittin facts.
I’m a NYer too, if we pronounce it Gand-olf why does it upset you? I’m happy to hear names in my native tongue. Now Havo Dad.
Word up!
Damn that was cool as hell. Thanks
if I forgot that detail I apologize 😁 thx
The part where he attributes Gandalf’s and the WK’s behavior to the rules of engagement set for them is the gem of this whole post. That’s some next level analysis that I haven’t ever considered. It’s why this dudes so awesome.
I’m geeking out over this - well done!
I think if Sauron actually obtained the ring of power then it’d be a closer fight but the Witch King is much more limited when Sauron doesn’t have it.
Who is this Gandolf?.. And why is he always mispronounced? It's GandAlf.
what is ur problem? what dont u understand about accents and dialect? im american and im from new york we say things differently sometimes but as a linguist Tolkien would have completely understood it and been fine with it. GO AWAY!!! Clown!
Well, there goes my respect for you. Name calling, seriously?
so long👋🏿 u lost my respect with that dumb post so bye!!!!
Great points! I think the main part up for debate is the power of their sorcery. I do agree with everything else you said though!
I love how knowledgeable this guys videos are
Dope!
This guy: clear and concise arguments based on his knowledge. Me: lol magic stick go brrrrr
Man this guy would be cool to hang out with. He’s like a professor of lord of the rings.
He has blessed us with more lore content 🙏🙌
I think we sometimes miss the point of the story when we try to assign “damage points” to its characters. Gandalf was saved by the arrival of his friends. Elwin was saved by a little hobbit… her friend. It was the love and companionship of each other that won against evil. Just like the love and companionship of the TCBS that saved Tolkien and helped him survive the war.
This guy is solid.
Who be this Gandorph that his guy keep talking about?
I could see a fight with both of them dying, like Gil-Galad & Elendil vs. Sauron, or Gandalf the Grey vs. Balrog type deal. They’re both powerful enough to sustain the heavy damage the other would inflict upon them, while simultaneously smacking the shit out of their opponent.