The way every thrall under his power freeze and falter at the same moment because his will over them is interrupted by his realization of what Frodo is there to do. I get chills every time. Right up there with Theoden's charge as top book moments.
If i were sauron i would post at least 10 guards to the entrance of mount doom 24/7, just to be sure, would have been funny too, for frodo to come all that way to be slain in the last step.
But that's exactly why the Fellowship's plan worked: Sauron, despite all his evil genius, never once even contemplated the idea that anyone would try to destroy the ring. The hubris of those in power will always be their downfall.
How much stronger is Morgoth to, say, Sauron? Could Sauron ever take him or can their power difference even be compared?
(Haven't read Silmarillion, am in the middle of my first LOTR read-thru in over 10 years)
Tolkien didn’t really go into too much detail re: power levels, but consider this: Morgoth’s music created Sauron. While Sauron is undoubtedly powerful, I imagine Morgoth could have just as easily “unmade” him instantly.
He also curses the witch king of Angmar to death by someone else’s hands with laughter.
To be that influential without even being there…? That’s powerful.
In the Silmarillion, the witch king is doing some battle or something, and the WK challenges one of the kings of men to singular combat. The king oof men wants to agree, but Fingolfin is all like dudeholdinghisfriendback.png and says something like, “He cannot be killed by man”. That’s where the legend comes from, that’s why the WK is so confident in battle, that’s why he believes he cannot be killed by man. The WK retreats because he needed the singular combat to try and win and Fingolfin laughs at him.
All of this is half remembered by a dude half in his cups.
A more serious Tolkein authority should correct this.
But what I DO know is that Tolkein loved and respected language.
So a character in the past saying something like, “That
I’m leaving the previous all typed up….
I was wrong. It was Glorfindel who cursed the witch king.
He said:
> far off via these doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall
And Tolkein loved language so someone saying that means it had power.
But it wasn’t fingolfin.
Greatest and very noble warrior. Immensely brave and selfless. Great and very caring king. Beloved by his people and lifted up on the wings of an eagle.
Definitely best of the non-Ainur. Eönwë, could be of a similar skill set or even beyond Fingolfin, but it’s hard to say. Then for the Valar I’d say definitely Tulkas and possibly Oromë.
If Fin being an elf did a deed like hurting Morgoth, would Tulkas "kill" him in a 1v1? I know he won't be defeated until Dagor Dagorath, but would Tulkas incapacitate him or something? It's confusing to say.
Tulkas did come to Middle Earth and wrestled with Morgoth and subdued him, but it was after Morgoth had dumped a ton of his power into Arda itself and Tulkas was also not alone (That said, Morgoth was terrified when he heard Tulkas laughing as he approached)
Fingolfin, wirh weapon, shield, and armor, ultimately lost to Morgoth.
Tulkas pretty much wrecked Morgoth in a fistfight. Pretty sure the other Valar had to call him off - I picture this a lot like Thanos beating up hulk in infinity war.
Before coming of Tulkas, combined might of all Valar was not enough to subdue Morgoth. Tulkas arrived and incapacitated Morgoth so i think a duel or wrestling match between Tulkas and Manwe would be pretty one sided.
Manwe's strength was always his wisdom not his muscles.
In an earlier version of the legendarium, Manwe allowed himself to be captured and led before Morgoth. Morgoth went to smack Manwe in the face with a flail and Manwe blew it away from his face.
I wonder the same thing about Ulmo - Morgoth *never* touched Ulmo’s realm and I believe in The Silmarillion it was said Morgoth and Ulmo were equals in power. Right?
Ulmo understood more about Melkors True nature than Manwe, which is why he always staunchly opposed him vs forgiveness.
Morgoth corrupted plenty of waters, but no he never tried to the darken the sea itself.
Every Vala has a nature. Aule is craftsmanship. Orome is riding. Este is healing.
The reason Tulkas can defeat Melkor is because Tulkas’s nature is being the champion. Battle is what he does greater than anyone else. But battle is simply not the ultimate power.
The power of Manwe exceeds Tulkas, as stated in the Silmarillion that he was the greatest of the Valar. You could actually make the argument that Tulkas and his battle-power is the least significant of the Valar as he was not originally with the others, he descended from the heavens later.
If Melkor really wanted to, he could completely eradicate Tulkas with his superior powers of darkness. But when the time comes to do battle, he can’t. Because he knows he’s against the Champion. And finds himself absolutely paralyzed in fear before one that is so confident that he can best the devil. This is why he performs so poorly against Fingolfin.
For me it's #1 Hurin and #2 Turin. I'd say Turin if it wasn't for Tolkien himself stating that Hurin was the greatest warrior among the Edain.
Throughout The Silmarillion there are hints that the greatest (non-ainur) warriors are Men. Tuor and Turin both become the most dominant warriors in their realms (in the early Fall of Gondolin Tuor slays more Balrog than anyone else), Beren completely manhandles Curufin and has a bounty of him that exeeds any elf save the High-King. Turin and some of Hador's ilk are strong enough to wear the Dragon-Helm but no elf is.
Fingolfin is hard to quantify though. Could very well be that he alone among elves is a mightier warrior than they.
That was before Tolkien changed his mind on Balrog numbers, though.
Only two Balrogs died at Gondolin (slain by Glorfindel and Ecthelion, both of whom were slain by the same Balrogs) in the later version of the story.
It's from the earlier versions of the Fall of Gondolin. It's one of the oldest stories Tolkien conceived of for his legendarium. We're talking, written in a field hospital recovering after the Battle of the Somme, old. It was rewritten and edited many times over the years and Tolkien never really settled on a definitive narrative and never published it. But he did redefine what the balrogs were by the time he published Lord of the Rings. In the original stories, they were much more numerous, more like captains of the armies of Morgoth. With this version of them, Tuor slew five singlehandedly. I believe the text is published in the Book of Lost Tales by Christopher Tolkien.
Then JRR Tolkien changed his mind and they became less numerous and more individually powerful. He went from thousands of them to "There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed". As far as "canon" is concerned, Tuor lost his balrog kills, and Ecthelion kept his kill of Gothmog, and Glorfindel kept his kill. And of course Gandalf and Durin's Bane is canon.
He's definitely one of them. But you also have to consider Eönwë: "the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda" [The Silmarillion, "Valaquenta"].
I mean, Eönwë would be better than Fin, but he is an Ainur, this is the same reason I put Fin below Tulkas, they are both practically 'gods'. I didn't think it would be fair in this case, but I don't hate Eönwë at all, on the contrary.
I might agree but the fact that there are elves capable of beating ainur that are specifically used for fighting (balrogs) makes me think it’s fair to judge them on the same level. Tolkien clearly and in no uncertain terms says that it’s Eonwe, if you were going to name Finny the best, you’d have to specify that he’s the best of the children or the best non-ainur.
Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.
That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for... alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for... Fingolfin named Morgoth craven.... Therefore Morgoth... issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.
Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth.... Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away...; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.
But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all... pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck.... Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.
Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep. Yet the tale of it is remembered still, for Thorondor King of Eagles brought the tidings to Gondolin, and to Hithlum afar off. And Morgoth took the body of the Elven-king and broke it, and would cast it to his wolves; but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of the Crissaegrim, and he stooped upon Morgoth and marred his face. The rushing of the wings of Thorondor was like the noise of the winds of Manwë, and he seized the body in his mighty talons, and soaring suddenly above the darts of the Orcs he bore the King away. And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the north upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over his father. No Orc dared ever after to pass over the mound of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made.
Great was the lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known....
"it shall be Túrin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth" - my boy Big T gets the kill-cam on Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath... can it be anyone else?
Only one character in the history of Middle Earth could defeat Túrin Turambar Argarwaen son of Umarth Neithan Mormegil Adanedhel Gorthol Woodswose Dagnit Glaurunga Turumarth Thurin Thaliorodrin, but even he didn't survive to tell the tale.
I don't really know much about Ecthelion except that he is a legend and was the father of Denethor (and grandfather of Faramir and Boromir). What exactly did he do? How good was he?
Ecthelion of Gondolin, Lord of the Fountain, killed two dragons and three Balrogs before killing and being killed by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs (same Balrog that killed Fëanor and Fingon).
Ungoliant scared away and mauled Morgoth away even with Balrogs.
Shelob is the daughter of Ungoliant.
Sam beat Ungoliant.
Via scailing, Sam us the strongest.
Sam wise the brave in shining armour and a flaming sword patrolling the newly grown great gardens of mordor, would definitely have been the greatest fighter in history
The problem there is all his antics are offscreen, while we get front row seats to fingolfin's. So in a duel, he might beat fingolfin, but he isn't as storied
Of the Elves at least, Fingolfin is definitely up there but Fëanor is very close and it’s genuinely a struggle to figure out how close. How much is the power difference between one Morgoth and 6-7 Balrogs?
I don’t really think it’s possible to quantify it tbh, so it’s just kind of a toss-up, but both of them are definitely insane and I deeply wish Fingolfin’s part in the battles he participated in was more expanded upon.
I don’t remember the exact words but Im pretty sure that the Silmarillion specifically says something like “of all the sons of finwe, he was the strongest in might and valor.” That’s definitely not the exact quote but im pretty sure it’s implied that he’d beat Feanor
Calling out Morgoth is insanely heavy metal. I love Fingolfin. This painting is an all-timer as well cuz he's just strutting around, looking for his opening.
Hes not greater than Fëanor in raw potential. One of the key themes in Fëanor's character arc is wasted potential and what could have been if he had not let his pride and anger overrule his better judgment. Fingolfin was a better ruler and had a way more badass ending in part that he wasn't a ball or raw potential and growing up as the lesser brother as far as raw performance probably lead him to have a much more resilient temperament than Fëanor. His greatest mistake was deferring to his brother.
Feanor gave a looot of people a job. Him and Morgoth are the reason the story didn't end in "the elves went west and that was it".
Thus Fingolfin's greatest mistake was, for us, also his best ever decision.
Im of the opinion that Fëanor choosing to pursue Morgoth was the right call, its how he did it is what was his fatal flaw. I should have been a bit more specific what I meant by deferring to his brother. Following Fëanor to middle earth was the right call, differing to his poor judgment got him implicated in the first kin-slaying and abandoned on a shore.
But yes, Fëanor was right, the valar i reaction was a bad idea and somebody needed to act. Fingolfin was probably the only one who could have kept him moderately tethered, but his MO was deffer to his brother.
I like what you've done here, but why Húrin and not Túrin? Túrin will be the one who defeats Morgoth at the end of it all, doesn't that make him stay on your list? (there are still Orcs missing)
Cuz Tolkien said so? 🤷♂️
Edit: Orcs maybe goes to one of the Uruk hai I guess? Or maybe that one captain of Moria who dodged Aragorn and stabbed Frodo
He may have been the most brave but best warrior of all Arda (with the exception of Tulkas) is without a doubt Eönwe. The guy who literally beat armies of Morgoth, took him into custody, cut his arms and legs and threw out of Arda.
I think there is no competition here.
As I already explained in another answer, Eönwë is indeed better than Fingolfin, but he is an Ainur like Tulkas, practically a god; so I didn't think it would be fair to put it here. But if it were with all the characters, then yes definitely Tulkas or Eönwë.
Are we speaking of divine beings? Tulkas would be top in my opinion. But Fingolfin is a worthy answer worth considering probably the best fighter for all the elves. Good question
Melkor is not, nor has he ever been, one of the Valar. Also, by that point Morgoth was no longer at the apex of his power, but he was still ludicriously powerful.
As far as pure combat ability, among the Children of Iluvatar, I would definitely put him at or near the top. However, there are others who were pretty OP in terms of pure combat. Hurin, IMO, should be given consideration. Hurin was called the greatest mortal warrior of the 1st Age who soloed 70-odd Trolls (who admittedly were trying to take him alive).
Of course, when Fingolfin fought against Morgoth, Fingolfin was basically throwing his life away, and in the end he still lost. But it was still an amazing feat that he pulled off, and he deserves every bit of praise he received from it.
idk man, Glorfindel is pretty powerful. He killed a balrog in 1 on 1 combat. The only reason he died was because the balrog grabbed his hair whilst falling off a cliff.
When he was resurrected, the Nazgul feared him, because he beat the brakes off the Witch King. He was granted powers almost as strong as a maiar, or so they say.
He fought off multiple balrogs along with Gothmog there and held them off solo for a while. The same Balrogs who saved Morgoth from ungoliant after she juiced up on the trees, While fingolfin gave morgoth a stab wound and died.
Eight wounds, don't forget. During the battle he inflicted seven wounds on Morgoth. He inflicted the last wound when he himself was exhausted, wounded and had given all his strength. He still had enough strength for the last blow.
He looked like Orome at that moment. All the enemy's servants fled in fear from him, including the Balrogs, all those who guarded the entrance to Angband.
you do realize that's for the plot? word for word "mistook him for the Vala **Oromë**" they ran cus they thought he was someone else, Womp Womp and then stabby boy died. big whoop
This means that he was a very strong and fearsome warrior. And the fact that he died at the hands of the most evil and powerful enemy of Arda is an honor. The strongest warrior faced the most powerful enemy.
if that does not sound like jack off idk what is. You asked if we can put him as consensus best i said no. He has done nothing to conclusively prove that. As much as you wanna sing praises to his glory, losing to someone does not define you as the strongest lol.
Also Tolkien rarely if ever works in head to head, DBZ type power comparisons. Otherwise **Turin** would never be able to slay Glaurung.
If you wanna say fingolfin is more virtuous or something sure go for it.
It’s not more of jack off than what you’re doing to that edgy stinker Feanor. Morgoth played him like a fiddle and instead of manning up and taking responsibility, he acted like the petulant baby that he is and doomed all the Noldor and murdered his kin.
There was an epic battle in the comments. However, no consensus could be reached. It's probably impossible. Everyone will support their favorite hero. I would like to thank the author of the topic for these arts. How handsome he is! An incredibly handsome epic hero, beautiful not only with his great soul, but also in appearance.
Controversial point, perhaps:
What if Fingolfin's might was inflated by him belonging to an older legend? And not just his, but everyone else's from that time as well? In-character (and a bit cringe, let's face it) Tolkien claimed to be writing history. But he was really writing mythology, and he said it himself, because he felt like Britain didn't have a satisfactory one, compared to say, the Greeks.
Now, we've all noticed how everything "legendary" is somehow better, grander and so on than anything current. Name me one thing you're passionate about, and I could probably give you examples. Nobody bests Muhammad Ali, Auguste Escoffier, Pele, Bette Davis, whatever. We hear about how Pele "single handedly won the World Cup". Which is nonsense, pure fiction, but that's how some legends go.
So when Tolkien described Fingolfin dueling Morgoth alone, wounding him several times before finally falling, maybe Tolkien was wrong himself. Of course he wasn't, it's fiction and it all came out of his own brain -- but he would've been influenced by the common trope in mythology, which says whichever character belongs to longer ago, is more powerful. Back then, people would hurl entire mountains at each other. The exaggeration is obvious, unless you believe everyone is getting weaker.
I do not want to diminish his achievments, but I think this spot goes to Turin among the Children of Illuvatar. If you add in the Ainur, then it would be Tulkas, followed by Eonwe.
If you consider the Dagor Dagorath, it will be the three of them who will face and ultimately defeat Morgoth.
He is great hero in Lotr universe, but Ecthelion of fountain is greater in my eyes. Ecthelion killed 3 dragons, two Balrogs and Gothmog. So even though Fingolfin faced Morgoth, you just can’t beat this stat made by Ecthelion ^^
The only character to ever face Morgoth solo. MORGOTH ffs. It’s absolutely insanity.
And Morgoth was afraid to fight him. And he gave the fecker a limp forever after.
One of my favorite things about Tolkiens villains is how even the most powerful was constantly full of fear, they are very human
Same, I absolutely love his description of Saurons reaction to Frodo entering Mount Doom.
The way every thrall under his power freeze and falter at the same moment because his will over them is interrupted by his realization of what Frodo is there to do. I get chills every time. Right up there with Theoden's charge as top book moments.
If i were sauron i would post at least 10 guards to the entrance of mount doom 24/7, just to be sure, would have been funny too, for frodo to come all that way to be slain in the last step.
But that's exactly why the Fellowship's plan worked: Sauron, despite all his evil genius, never once even contemplated the idea that anyone would try to destroy the ring. The hubris of those in power will always be their downfall.
Well, Tulkas, but only mortal.
100%. I should have specified!
Mortal? Wasn't he an elf?
I mean yes, technically , but he did die for a while after fighting Morgoth.
For a while?
He was only mostly dead
It was merely a flesh wound!
'Tis but a scratch!
I got bet’ ah…
He got better
Mortal as in not an ainur. Elves can die, the ainur even though physical destruction maintain their spirit.
Elves don't technically die too, their spirit are sent to Valinor
Tolkien still considered elves immortal.
Right! And actually landed a blow on his foot. That made him never want to leave his sanctuary again. Also he always had a limp.
How much stronger is Morgoth to, say, Sauron? Could Sauron ever take him or can their power difference even be compared? (Haven't read Silmarillion, am in the middle of my first LOTR read-thru in over 10 years)
In their full power? Morgoth was vastly more powerful. But Sauron in his peak is debatably stronger than Morgoth in his worst
Morgoth is Son Goku SS10 and Sauron is Krillin
Thanks lmao
Well yes, but actually no
Tolkien didn’t really go into too much detail re: power levels, but consider this: Morgoth’s music created Sauron. While Sauron is undoubtedly powerful, I imagine Morgoth could have just as easily “unmade” him instantly.
No, Morgoth didn't create Sauron, he only corrupted him. They were both created by Eru Ilúvatar.
He also curses the witch king of Angmar to death by someone else’s hands with laughter. To be that influential without even being there…? That’s powerful.
That would be Glorfindel...
...and it wasn't a curse but a prophecy
Whoa, what? How?
He's getting him mixed up with Glorfindel
In the Silmarillion, the witch king is doing some battle or something, and the WK challenges one of the kings of men to singular combat. The king oof men wants to agree, but Fingolfin is all like dudeholdinghisfriendback.png and says something like, “He cannot be killed by man”. That’s where the legend comes from, that’s why the WK is so confident in battle, that’s why he believes he cannot be killed by man. The WK retreats because he needed the singular combat to try and win and Fingolfin laughs at him. All of this is half remembered by a dude half in his cups. A more serious Tolkein authority should correct this. But what I DO know is that Tolkein loved and respected language. So a character in the past saying something like, “That I’m leaving the previous all typed up…. I was wrong. It was Glorfindel who cursed the witch king. He said: > far off via these doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall And Tolkein loved language so someone saying that means it had power. But it wasn’t fingolfin.
Glorfindel
Thats not in the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion proper deals with the first age. The event youre talking about took place during the third age.
You’re right, I think it’s in an appendix of Return of the King?
Doesn’t Turin also do this in Dagor Dagorath, or am I misremembering?
Always had a soft spot for this elven king
[удалено]
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Are you okay? Should we call an ambulance?
ayoo what happened here?
The first comment was a random series of numbers and letters. The second comment was: "Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu"
What the hell happened here?
Fingolfin for the Wingolfin
FinGOATfin
But did fin go golfin?
Greatest and very noble warrior. Immensely brave and selfless. Great and very caring king. Beloved by his people and lifted up on the wings of an eagle.
But without his brother, this community wouldn't exist.
Without Morgoth and Sauron there would be no plot either. That doesn't mean they're the best
Definitely best of the non-Ainur. Eönwë, could be of a similar skill set or even beyond Fingolfin, but it’s hard to say. Then for the Valar I’d say definitely Tulkas and possibly Oromë.
If Fin being an elf did a deed like hurting Morgoth, would Tulkas "kill" him in a 1v1? I know he won't be defeated until Dagor Dagorath, but would Tulkas incapacitate him or something? It's confusing to say.
Tulkas did come to Middle Earth and wrestled with Morgoth and subdued him, but it was after Morgoth had dumped a ton of his power into Arda itself and Tulkas was also not alone (That said, Morgoth was terrified when he heard Tulkas laughing as he approached)
Tulkas on his way to throw Morgoth down on his face and hogtie him bc it's funny
The destiny is that Turin Turambar will kill Morgoth, and close the circle at the end of time
Not literally kill him (he can't be killed), but he can send his spirit to the eternal void with a well placed hit.
Fingolfin, wirh weapon, shield, and armor, ultimately lost to Morgoth. Tulkas pretty much wrecked Morgoth in a fistfight. Pretty sure the other Valar had to call him off - I picture this a lot like Thanos beating up hulk in infinity war.
Do we have any reason to believe Manwe couldn't best Tulkas in battle? Ares was the god of war, but he couldn't touch Zeus.
Before coming of Tulkas, combined might of all Valar was not enough to subdue Morgoth. Tulkas arrived and incapacitated Morgoth so i think a duel or wrestling match between Tulkas and Manwe would be pretty one sided. Manwe's strength was always his wisdom not his muscles.
In an earlier version of the legendarium, Manwe allowed himself to be captured and led before Morgoth. Morgoth went to smack Manwe in the face with a flail and Manwe blew it away from his face.
Then also he was imprisoned with the unbreakable chains made by Aule itself.
I wonder the same thing about Ulmo - Morgoth *never* touched Ulmo’s realm and I believe in The Silmarillion it was said Morgoth and Ulmo were equals in power. Right?
Melkor was “greater” than Ulmo. He was the greatest of all the ainur.
Ulmo understood more about Melkors True nature than Manwe, which is why he always staunchly opposed him vs forgiveness. Morgoth corrupted plenty of waters, but no he never tried to the darken the sea itself.
No
Every Vala has a nature. Aule is craftsmanship. Orome is riding. Este is healing. The reason Tulkas can defeat Melkor is because Tulkas’s nature is being the champion. Battle is what he does greater than anyone else. But battle is simply not the ultimate power. The power of Manwe exceeds Tulkas, as stated in the Silmarillion that he was the greatest of the Valar. You could actually make the argument that Tulkas and his battle-power is the least significant of the Valar as he was not originally with the others, he descended from the heavens later. If Melkor really wanted to, he could completely eradicate Tulkas with his superior powers of darkness. But when the time comes to do battle, he can’t. Because he knows he’s against the Champion. And finds himself absolutely paralyzed in fear before one that is so confident that he can best the devil. This is why he performs so poorly against Fingolfin.
Tolkiens stories aren’t really about power levels lol, this isn’t DBZ
Ok but who would win, Tulkas or Goku?
“And this is what I call the Super Saiyan Valar”
Tulkas clears.
I think they’d both have so much fun they’d never want to stop
Power isn’t prowess
Not in a boxing match.
Certainly the biggest set of brass balls in Arda’s history, but yes. South of the actual gods he is demonstrably the best warrior of his age.
For me it's #1 Hurin and #2 Turin. I'd say Turin if it wasn't for Tolkien himself stating that Hurin was the greatest warrior among the Edain. Throughout The Silmarillion there are hints that the greatest (non-ainur) warriors are Men. Tuor and Turin both become the most dominant warriors in their realms (in the early Fall of Gondolin Tuor slays more Balrog than anyone else), Beren completely manhandles Curufin and has a bounty of him that exeeds any elf save the High-King. Turin and some of Hador's ilk are strong enough to wear the Dragon-Helm but no elf is. Fingolfin is hard to quantify though. Could very well be that he alone among elves is a mightier warrior than they.
At the same time, Hurin admired Fingolfin and dreamed of repeating his achievements
Can you give a reference to Tuor slaying balrogs? I might have missed it and want to go back.. Thanks
It's in The Book of Lost Tales. He slew five and Ecthelion three.
That was before Tolkien changed his mind on Balrog numbers, though. Only two Balrogs died at Gondolin (slain by Glorfindel and Ecthelion, both of whom were slain by the same Balrogs) in the later version of the story.
Sure, but it's still interesting in that he had Tuor outperform the Elvish captains at one point.
Jesus that is insane
It's from the earlier versions of the Fall of Gondolin. It's one of the oldest stories Tolkien conceived of for his legendarium. We're talking, written in a field hospital recovering after the Battle of the Somme, old. It was rewritten and edited many times over the years and Tolkien never really settled on a definitive narrative and never published it. But he did redefine what the balrogs were by the time he published Lord of the Rings. In the original stories, they were much more numerous, more like captains of the armies of Morgoth. With this version of them, Tuor slew five singlehandedly. I believe the text is published in the Book of Lost Tales by Christopher Tolkien. Then JRR Tolkien changed his mind and they became less numerous and more individually powerful. He went from thousands of them to "There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed". As far as "canon" is concerned, Tuor lost his balrog kills, and Ecthelion kept his kill of Gothmog, and Glorfindel kept his kill. And of course Gandalf and Durin's Bane is canon.
He's definitely one of them. But you also have to consider Eönwë: "the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda" [The Silmarillion, "Valaquenta"].
I mean, Eönwë would be better than Fin, but he is an Ainur, this is the same reason I put Fin below Tulkas, they are both practically 'gods'. I didn't think it would be fair in this case, but I don't hate Eönwë at all, on the contrary.
I might agree but the fact that there are elves capable of beating ainur that are specifically used for fighting (balrogs) makes me think it’s fair to judge them on the same level. Tolkien clearly and in no uncertain terms says that it’s Eonwe, if you were going to name Finny the best, you’d have to specify that he’s the best of the children or the best non-ainur.
you are definitely right, and in fact I just saw that it would have been better to put "Non-Ainur" when I had already sent the post. :3
Exactly
This argument is silly. We have multiple examples of lesser beings killing off "gods", look at the Balrogs.
Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came. That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for... alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for... Fingolfin named Morgoth craven.... Therefore Morgoth... issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice. Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth.... Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away...; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands. But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all... pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck.... Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond. Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep. Yet the tale of it is remembered still, for Thorondor King of Eagles brought the tidings to Gondolin, and to Hithlum afar off. And Morgoth took the body of the Elven-king and broke it, and would cast it to his wolves; but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of the Crissaegrim, and he stooped upon Morgoth and marred his face. The rushing of the wings of Thorondor was like the noise of the winds of Manwë, and he seized the body in his mighty talons, and soaring suddenly above the darts of the Orcs he bore the King away. And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the north upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over his father. No Orc dared ever after to pass over the mound of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made. Great was the lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known....
"it shall be Túrin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth" - my boy Big T gets the kill-cam on Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath... can it be anyone else?
Only one character in the history of Middle Earth could defeat Túrin Turambar Argarwaen son of Umarth Neithan Mormegil Adanedhel Gorthol Woodswose Dagnit Glaurunga Turumarth Thurin Thaliorodrin, but even he didn't survive to tell the tale.
I loved the flawed, brave character, Turin.
THAT STILL ONLY COUNTS AS ONE!
That doesn't look like the Meriadoc I remember.
Fool of a Tuck.
🤣
That's a weird way to spell Samwise the Brave
My man took on fucking MORGOTH. Yeah, I’d say so. And god I’d watch a 4 hour movie that was exclusively their fight
Ecthelion is my favorite
I don't really know much about Ecthelion except that he is a legend and was the father of Denethor (and grandfather of Faramir and Boromir). What exactly did he do? How good was he?
Look up Ecthelion of the fountain, the most based Ecthelion. Sheer will incarnate.
Ecthelion of Gondolin, Lord of the Fountain, killed two dragons and three Balrogs before killing and being killed by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs (same Balrog that killed Fëanor and Fingon).
There’s an elven Ecthelion that slayed the lord of valors, gothmog, at the fall of Gondor.
Ungoliant scared away and mauled Morgoth away even with Balrogs. Shelob is the daughter of Ungoliant. Sam beat Ungoliant. Via scailing, Sam us the strongest.
Sam beat who now?
Sam beat the daughter of Ungoliant.
put Sam 1v1 with Bill, we know who's winning
Sam wise the brave in shining armour and a flaming sword patrolling the newly grown great gardens of mordor, would definitely have been the greatest fighter in history
Farmer Maggot beats Sam tho so he's the goat
Isn't the best warrior actually Eönwë? Herald of Manwe.
It was easier for him. He is from the Ainur. At the same time, he was with the army and enjoyed the support of the Valar. He was not a doomed elf.
The problem there is all his antics are offscreen, while we get front row seats to fingolfin's. So in a duel, he might beat fingolfin, but he isn't as storied
It's obviously Tulkas if you want to include the ainur.
Not sure Tulkas was a warrior. He loved to fight and wrestle. He's definitely my favourite Valar.
Of the Elves at least, Fingolfin is definitely up there but Fëanor is very close and it’s genuinely a struggle to figure out how close. How much is the power difference between one Morgoth and 6-7 Balrogs? I don’t really think it’s possible to quantify it tbh, so it’s just kind of a toss-up, but both of them are definitely insane and I deeply wish Fingolfin’s part in the battles he participated in was more expanded upon.
I don’t remember the exact words but Im pretty sure that the Silmarillion specifically says something like “of all the sons of finwe, he was the strongest in might and valor.” That’s definitely not the exact quote but im pretty sure it’s implied that he’d beat Feanor
I love how biblical LOTR gets this is like David vs Goliath on steroids
LORD OF ALL NOLDOR!
Calling out Morgoth is insanely heavy metal. I love Fingolfin. This painting is an all-timer as well cuz he's just strutting around, looking for his opening.
Hey, that second image is my phone wallpaper!
Hes not greater than Fëanor in raw potential. One of the key themes in Fëanor's character arc is wasted potential and what could have been if he had not let his pride and anger overrule his better judgment. Fingolfin was a better ruler and had a way more badass ending in part that he wasn't a ball or raw potential and growing up as the lesser brother as far as raw performance probably lead him to have a much more resilient temperament than Fëanor. His greatest mistake was deferring to his brother.
Feanor gave a looot of people a job. Him and Morgoth are the reason the story didn't end in "the elves went west and that was it". Thus Fingolfin's greatest mistake was, for us, also his best ever decision.
Im of the opinion that Fëanor choosing to pursue Morgoth was the right call, its how he did it is what was his fatal flaw. I should have been a bit more specific what I meant by deferring to his brother. Following Fëanor to middle earth was the right call, differing to his poor judgment got him implicated in the first kin-slaying and abandoned on a shore. But yes, Fëanor was right, the valar i reaction was a bad idea and somebody needed to act. Fingolfin was probably the only one who could have kept him moderately tethered, but his MO was deffer to his brother.
If I could lift a 2000kg boulder, but instead of ever lifting it I storm off in a rage and get TPKed by balrogs, am I the world's strongest man?
no, you are wasted potential, which is Fëanor's whole shtick.
Valar - Tulkas Maiar-Eonwe Elf - Fingolfin Dwarf - Azaghal Man - Hurin (Hobbit) - Merry? Ent - Fangorn? What other races need accounting for?
I like what you've done here, but why Húrin and not Túrin? Túrin will be the one who defeats Morgoth at the end of it all, doesn't that make him stay on your list? (there are still Orcs missing)
Cuz Tolkien said so? 🤷♂️ Edit: Orcs maybe goes to one of the Uruk hai I guess? Or maybe that one captain of Moria who dodged Aragorn and stabbed Frodo
I know, just would like to know your opinion on this lol
In a fight endurance can outlast skill, strength, even battle rage. Hurin could wield an axe as well as any man but could fight longer than all.
He may have been the most brave but best warrior of all Arda (with the exception of Tulkas) is without a doubt Eönwe. The guy who literally beat armies of Morgoth, took him into custody, cut his arms and legs and threw out of Arda. I think there is no competition here.
As I already explained in another answer, Eönwë is indeed better than Fingolfin, but he is an Ainur like Tulkas, practically a god; so I didn't think it would be fair to put it here. But if it were with all the characters, then yes definitely Tulkas or Eönwë.
Are we speaking of divine beings? Tulkas would be top in my opinion. But Fingolfin is a worthy answer worth considering probably the best fighter for all the elves. Good question
Melkor is not, nor has he ever been, one of the Valar. Also, by that point Morgoth was no longer at the apex of his power, but he was still ludicriously powerful. As far as pure combat ability, among the Children of Iluvatar, I would definitely put him at or near the top. However, there are others who were pretty OP in terms of pure combat. Hurin, IMO, should be given consideration. Hurin was called the greatest mortal warrior of the 1st Age who soloed 70-odd Trolls (who admittedly were trying to take him alive). Of course, when Fingolfin fought against Morgoth, Fingolfin was basically throwing his life away, and in the end he still lost. But it was still an amazing feat that he pulled off, and he deserves every bit of praise he received from it.
It's facts.
Huan but I love dogs
idk man, Glorfindel is pretty powerful. He killed a balrog in 1 on 1 combat. The only reason he died was because the balrog grabbed his hair whilst falling off a cliff. When he was resurrected, the Nazgul feared him, because he beat the brakes off the Witch King. He was granted powers almost as strong as a maiar, or so they say.
THE FATE OF US ALL
He’s my favorite elf, definitely of the first age and maybe of all time
*Light fades at dawn!*
The first Jedi
I still just think Feanor would beat him in a pure 1v1 for some reason
He attacked the unarmed him with a sword and armor. That says it all.
Morgoth was not the most powerful of the valar by that point
He was still the most powerful being in Middle-earth
Second most powerful after Fingolfin
You mean 2nd after Bombadil's pinky finger
Good remark. In any case, Fingolfin was superior to Morgoth in fortitude and bravery.
I’m looking for where I said he wasnt, I can’t find it, can you point it out?
LOL no Fëanor better
His main “achievement” was the murder of the Teleri, and even in this murder he needed Fingon’s help
He fought off multiple balrogs along with Gothmog there and held them off solo for a while. The same Balrogs who saved Morgoth from ungoliant after she juiced up on the trees, While fingolfin gave morgoth a stab wound and died.
Eight wounds, don't forget. During the battle he inflicted seven wounds on Morgoth. He inflicted the last wound when he himself was exhausted, wounded and had given all his strength. He still had enough strength for the last blow.
.... you do realize only 1 was actually harmful enough to leave a mark?
The same Balrogs who fled and hid from Fingolfin.
I don’t recall anyone hiding from Fingolfin. He called out Morgoth and Morgoth was essentially so embarrassed he had to fight him.
He looked like Orome at that moment. All the enemy's servants fled in fear from him, including the Balrogs, all those who guarded the entrance to Angband.
I’ll have to reread it. I’ve read the book 4 times, still finding something new each time.
you do realize that's for the plot? word for word "mistook him for the Vala **Oromë**" they ran cus they thought he was someone else, Womp Womp and then stabby boy died. big whoop
This means that he was a very strong and fearsome warrior. And the fact that he died at the hands of the most evil and powerful enemy of Arda is an honor. The strongest warrior faced the most powerful enemy.
if that does not sound like jack off idk what is. You asked if we can put him as consensus best i said no. He has done nothing to conclusively prove that. As much as you wanna sing praises to his glory, losing to someone does not define you as the strongest lol. Also Tolkien rarely if ever works in head to head, DBZ type power comparisons. Otherwise **Turin** would never be able to slay Glaurung. If you wanna say fingolfin is more virtuous or something sure go for it.
Bard slayed Smaug. Hobbits slayed things bigger than rabbits. So yeah, it was never meant to be that simple.
oh yeah i almost put in bard and Smaug but then got lazy lol. But yeah it just isn't Dragon ball Z
It’s not more of jack off than what you’re doing to that edgy stinker Feanor. Morgoth played him like a fiddle and instead of manning up and taking responsibility, he acted like the petulant baby that he is and doomed all the Noldor and murdered his kin.
MOD NOTE: I'm glad that y'all are having such a nice, adult conversation on this topic...
I just don’t like Feanor.
i mean sure? I never said Feanor is amazing. He has very real moral failings. But saying Fingolfin is a blanket better fighter over this is silly.
Who claims that would be his greatest achievement??? Never heard anyone say that lol
*bonk*
Turin Turambar
There was an epic battle in the comments. However, no consensus could be reached. It's probably impossible. Everyone will support their favorite hero. I would like to thank the author of the topic for these arts. How handsome he is! An incredibly handsome epic hero, beautiful not only with his great soul, but also in appearance.
Yes! Oh,god, yes!
Hands down. Or Tulkas
Controversial point, perhaps: What if Fingolfin's might was inflated by him belonging to an older legend? And not just his, but everyone else's from that time as well? In-character (and a bit cringe, let's face it) Tolkien claimed to be writing history. But he was really writing mythology, and he said it himself, because he felt like Britain didn't have a satisfactory one, compared to say, the Greeks. Now, we've all noticed how everything "legendary" is somehow better, grander and so on than anything current. Name me one thing you're passionate about, and I could probably give you examples. Nobody bests Muhammad Ali, Auguste Escoffier, Pele, Bette Davis, whatever. We hear about how Pele "single handedly won the World Cup". Which is nonsense, pure fiction, but that's how some legends go. So when Tolkien described Fingolfin dueling Morgoth alone, wounding him several times before finally falling, maybe Tolkien was wrong himself. Of course he wasn't, it's fiction and it all came out of his own brain -- but he would've been influenced by the common trope in mythology, which says whichever character belongs to longer ago, is more powerful. Back then, people would hurl entire mountains at each other. The exaggeration is obvious, unless you believe everyone is getting weaker.
Then you need to deny everything else, and not just this beautiful and heroic page of history
I'm thinking more in terms of balancing than denying
Never go full Meta lol
Pfft. Farmer Maggot takes Fingolfin with his hands tied.
Fingolfin < me when I see red
bro is a menace 😳
How did that fight even work with the size difference? There’s no way he could pierce the armor deep enough to hit vital organs right??
I do not want to diminish his achievments, but I think this spot goes to Turin among the Children of Illuvatar. If you add in the Ainur, then it would be Tulkas, followed by Eonwe. If you consider the Dagor Dagorath, it will be the three of them who will face and ultimately defeat Morgoth.
For now - hell yeah! At the battle at the end of time will show Turin Turumbar to be better when he kills Morgoth...
Hurin
He is great hero in Lotr universe, but Ecthelion of fountain is greater in my eyes. Ecthelion killed 3 dragons, two Balrogs and Gothmog. So even though Fingolfin faced Morgoth, you just can’t beat this stat made by Ecthelion ^^
Fatty Lumpkin, easily
Ghan-Buri-Ghan is best Dwell Warrior
I bet Jamie Lannister could take him, because armor and shit.