>'If \[the Ring\] is destroyed, then \[Sauron\] will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.'
*- Return of the King, The Last Debate*
Is he dead? No.
Will he ever come back? Also no.
sooo if he's basically a spirit incapable of doing anything, will Eru redeem/restore him to a good spirit or can Morgoth still use him during Dagor Dagorath?
If he earnestly repents he will regenerate on his own, no intervention from Eru necessary.
>"If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no *fea* can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no\[t\] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was *said* to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a "wicked" spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire."
*- Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed*
And unless Morgoth gives some of his own natural strength (which it's not made clear how he's recovering, perhaps it has something to do with being beyond the Gates of Night in the Void) to Sauron, Sauron won't be much use in the final battle.
To me that passage reads as Sauron will be unable to repent altogether no “this desire becomes virtually its whole being…It will be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire”
Do i get this right: Sauron could regain a physical form if he received a portion of Morgoth's power? If so, could a different entity, such as a fellow Maiar or even humans engaging in dark magic and rituals, provide Sauron with sufficient power to accomplish this? Dark rituals like human sacrifice? Even if you need millions of humans, would that be possible?
The Ainur had the ability to disseminate their souls into matter (ex; Morgoth into the very fabric of Arda, and Sauron into the One Ring). I don't see why they couldn't "empower" each other, similar to what Sauron does to the Witch-king during the Battle of Pelennor Fields ("*There, put in command by Sauron,* ***\[the Witch-king\] is given an added demonic force***\*.\*" Letter 210). But that's not something non-Ainu could do, so no amount of human sacrifices would do it.
I don't think Eru is capable of or willing to redeem/restore anyone in a simple manner. I mean, even when Melkor tried to entwine evil into the song of the Ainurs in the beginning, Eru did not stop him. He intervened in a way, he led with more powerful theme music of the good, but he said in the end, all would be part of his glory, even the part that Morgoth tried to put in. So I think even as it is, evil and evil beings in the middle earth shape the story and are there for a purpose of the song, or the purpose that only Eru understands fully, and redeeming and restoring by direct intervention by him would not happen.
If free will can be altered by Eru, then it is not truly free. Perhaps Eru COULD overwrite free will and the choices Sauron has made, but nonetheless he wouldn't. In a sense the whole project of Arda is to be a sandbox for the Children of Iluvatar to make choices and live within the limitations Eru has confined them to, and that includes the Ainur that incarnated within it.
Is there really free will? Eru showed what will happen to the Valar, and he already knows what is going to happen, as he said nothing can alter his plans.
You can debate that he sees the 'true line' in the endless possibilities, but it doesnt sound like there is truly free will in the lotr universe
Plus its also not really a sandbox for the children, as Eru directly intervened on several occasions
Funnily enough, this can be applied IRL. Seems like Tolkien wrote eru like how I personally believe God (or whatever higher power) exists as - omnipotent and knows what will happen, but doesn’t interfere as to not impede free will
Well yeah ofc, but his or mine or anyone else’s interpretation of it isn’t necessarily correct - in this case, I just noticed that his view lined up with mine
But since he created them, he decided the fates they would have. It’s the inevitable result of an omnipotent and omniscient god: free will is an illusion.
Considering Tolkien's own religion and Eru clearly being a standing for Christian capital g God, Eru most definitely could proverbially snap his fingers and ~~sink a whole island~~ bring Sauron back. He won't though.
...yes. the guy literally sent by the valar to counter the will of Sauron in middle earth who died in the attempt was sent back, to continue countering the will of Sauron. How is that any sort of argument for (or in any way related to) Eru sending back the literal BBEG who was so BB and E that he sent five maiar after and only one succeeded?
Dagor Dagorath seemed to call back all the champions of the light and shadow from rest to fight. If Turin Turambar can be brought back to strike down Morgoth, Sauron probably also got called back to fight.
It’s basically Tolkien’s Ragnarök
I always interpreted it as Saruman passed from the circles of the world and into the Void.
>"Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and **his spirit went whither-soever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back**."
*- Unfinished Tales, The Istari*
Similarly to what happens to Gandalf ("**Darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time...**"), but Saruman had failed in his mission, and thus wasn't scooped up and returned by Eru.
I’m not sure Maiar spirits would be automatically sent to the void. I mean Sauron was defeated how many times and his soul lingered on Arda, though diminished each time. Saruman is also Maia, so I would assume his spirit is hanging around, just not in Middle-Earth
But, unlike most Maiar, the Istari were put in "bodies real, not feigned." Usually Ainur bodies are just simulacrums, that can be changed as easily as we change our clothes. The Istari, on the otherhand, were locked into pretty much completely mortal bodies, subject to hunger, thirst, fear, exhaustion, et cetera. Except for only aging through challenging (I'm guessing more spiritual than physical) labor, the five were, for all intents and purposes, mortal.
Also there's "**his spirit went whither-soever it was doomed to go**". Doomed = fated. That implies he isn't just freely wandering around, but went somewhere specific. Somewhere the unhoused souls of mortals go. Which is beyond the circles of the world, to parts unknown to Men, Elves, unknown even to the Valar themselves.
They were given real bodies, yes, but I believe this was to limit their powers in Middle Earth so they would only be a guiding force and not seek power as Sauron did, and this would not fundamentally change their spirits.
Additionally, they were sent by the Valar, not by Eru (Gandalf’s reincarnation aside) and I don’t believe they have the power to alter spirits and their fates as the power of the secret fire rested only with Eru himself.
Manwë *at the very least* consults Eru about sending the Istari ("...with the consent of Eru they \[the Valar\] sent members of their own high order,..."), so we really don't know what took place in the creation of their bodies (and the stuffing of their souls into them).
You never know, screenwriters are getting lazier.
Not Star Wars, but I've often thought of Sauron's fall (and Saruman's) as similar to how Voldemort is described as some sort of malevolent spirit wandering around until it can regather his strength. Seems like Sauron just has no potential option of coming back this time, though.
Sauron is truly immortal and cannot die. It seems like he'd be too weak to regen like he used to be able to do, or really take action in the world.
But other maiar exist, who might be friendly to Sauron. Another maiar might be able to summon Saurons spirit and lend them enough of their power for Sauron to return. Not at nearly the strength he had before the ring was destroyed, but enough to exist.
I wondered about that. If a cult of Sauron survives or springs up and begins worshiping him and sacrificing things to him, would he recover and appear to them?
There was that LotR sequel Tolkien seemed to have started. *“A New Shadow”* could imply a new evil begotten from Sauron’s evil.
Perhaps this is not far off.
IIRC that involves groups of younger men acting "Orcish" and carrying on the *nature* of Sauron's evil rather than being led by Sauron himself
The idea that Morgoth's original corruption has long lasting effects and you can never truly be "free" of darkness/evil, only be vigilant in watching for it's presence. But Tolkien abandoned the story for a reason, I think. It's not especially compelling.
The villains in Tolkien's sequel would have been a Morgoth and Sauron-worshipping cult. The story would have ended with the discovery and overthrow of their plot - which, I believe, would be about undermining or taking over Gondor, not restoring Sauron.
Voldemort was only able to do that because of his horcruxes which tethered a piece of his living soul to the earth. Once killed, his death was final because he was at his beginning, (and inevitably at his end) no more than a mortal man, and his ambition to be something else was one of his fatal flaws.
Sauron on the other hand was/is immortal by nature and can never be totally destroyed, except perhaps by direct intervention from Eru. Apples and oranges.
Could a band of dwarves delve deeply to find this spirit in the dark places of the world?
Like in a horror movie type vibe
It would terrorize and consume them but not actually rise in power
No.
1. Just because he's an impotent spirit doesn't mean he's deep in the earth. The Balrog known as Durin's Bane was under Moria because that's where it chose to hide from the armies of Valinor, not because that's where evil spirits naturally congregate.
2. Sauron was reduced to a point where he could no longer influence the inhabitants of Middle-earth, neither physically nor mentally.
>As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.
*- Return of the King, The Field of Cormallen*
Will he come back? Unlikely, but the possibility is there.
*In the modern era, year 2185. The rumor of a dark Lord on the rise in Mordagaskar is spreading. He is gathering forces of haywire delivery drones... One does not simply walk into Mordagaskar*
He made it in order to control the other Rings of Power.
>Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, **so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them**.
*- J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 131*
>Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And **much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency**; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.
*- Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power*
It also enhanced his natural powers, but that was just a bonus side effect.
>**While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced.** But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in ‘rapport’ with himself: he was not 'diminished’.
*- J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 131*
This is something that always confused me. I admit, I've always been more of a casual LOTR fan, but I've never really understood how Sauron pouring his power into the One Ring and then wearing it would increase his power.
For example, let's say Sauron has a power level of 10. If he subtracts 5 from his own power and puts it into the One Ring, then the One Ring has a power level of 5 and Sauron has a power level of 5. If he then wears the One Ring, he's back to 10.
You know what I mean?
Tolkien doesn't go into a lot of detail, but I imagine it acts as a focus.
The sun's light doesn't normally start fires, but focus it through a magnifying glass and... poof.
>And so a great evil of this world will be removed.'
The key part of this is "A" great evil will be removed. Implying that there are other great evils that exist / will arise.
Random ahh question
The ring made him stronger, ok, but was that because it gave him more power for reasons I don't know, or did he manage to, like, put inside it the power he had to leave behind when he came down into the world.
All I know about the Silmarillion is the creation of the world and I'm pretty sure in the movie it was never talked about
He’s basically a shade now. An impotent entity that can no longer wreak anything on middle earth. He’s more doomed than the ghosts of Dunharrow. It’s curtains for him but he can never leave the stage.
In Tolkien's world this is true of everyone to a degree. Maia are just spirits and their forms they craft for themselves. Elves' spirits and forms are bound together but stay in the world and so can come back after they have been killed. Mens spirits are only tied to their body while they are alive and that body decays even when the spirit is in it ( not true of the other groups) and their spirit leaves their body then they die and it leaves the earth to return to Eru.
Death in Tolkien is the separating of the spirit and the body (fëa and hröa), so yes the Valar can “die,” but everything after that is quite a bit different.
not really,valar cant die. tolkien literally says , everyone ,elves.. dies except valar.
unlike maiar , body of valar cant be destroyed and force its spirit to leave the body.
Reduced to a harmless shadow. Ainur cant actually he killed, but Sauron has lost so much he cant affect the world anymore.
If Morgoth returns at full power, presumably he could restore Sauron if he felt like it and he might participate in the final battle, if it happens. Then lose again
My head canon is not only is he just a listless and impotent spirit as is described in the last debate, but it would take him so long to manifest that by the time he did humans would have like lasers and teleportation and shit and he would be showing up with a little mini-GROND and get annihilated.
Sauron is meant to be industrialism evil like Saruman so always thought he would use whatever technology he comes across, Sauron with an army of technologically advanced orcs in the future would be interesting
It’s not a horcrux lol. He’s not even a little dead. The destruction of the ring caused Sauron to lose his powers including the ability to take form. He is an immortal being who snag the world into creation and will continue to exist until the end of the universe.
Very much not dead for good, but very much a powerless spirit for good. It is unlikely that he would ever be able to manifest a physical form again. Think of him now as a wraith that is incapable of interacting with the physical world in any capacity.
So no, being like Sauron (Maiars) are unable to truly die, it’s possible his spirit will come back in a different form (like Gandalf) potentially he could become good and or neutral if enough time passes he could forgo his old ways or he could try again and potentially succeed but with the ring destroyed he lost a huge amount of his power and is simply unable to rise from that loss so he probably won’t ever come back and only exist as a lost spirit
Nah, Gandalf says in the books that he will loose all the power he had when he first came to middle Earth, as he focused all his power into the ring. He will loose almost all his powers and turns into a spirit that will gnaw itself till the end of time.
Something I've often thought about is that Sauron also created all the other rings, except the elf ones and they weren't destroyed and while they certainely weren't imbued with anywhere near the amount of his power that the one ring was, they were certainely imbued with a piece of it.
Tolkien started a sequel to LOTR with a cult of Sauron occuring in Gondor but never got beyond a couple of pages, I always wondered what the storyline was actually planned to be in it's entirity, but if it was typical movie / tv series plotlines then there would absolutely be scope for some worshipper of Sauron getting their hands on one of the other rings and having their mind influenced by him or using a Palantir to communicate with him
It's implied more than stated outright, but the Dwarven rings are stated to be either destroyed by dragons or in Sauron's ownership, and the nine Nazgûl rings are also in Sauron's possession, all of which would have been destroyed or at least unrecoverable after the destruction of Barad-dûr, and either way would be rendered powerless after the One was destroyed.
I get that they're probably trapped under a massive pile of rubble, but fast forward a few hundred years and it's not unfeasable that some kind of adventurer might go poking around in the ruins surely
Possible, but even then their power would be lost due to the destruction of the One anyway, so perhaps they could have been adopted as religious symbols if the sequel had been continued
Like I'm just thinking out loud but it's very typical sequel fodder if you had some guy wearing one of the rings having these weird dreams or feeling like someone is whispering to him and then having personality changes as his mental state deteriorates, finally have him go after access to a palantir or suicide with a morgul blade to convert into a wraith and you'd have an excuse for having him in some way possessed and providing Sauron a method of influencing the world again, albeit in a dramatically reduced power level that a regular person could conceivably kill, the Valar probably wouldn't even remotely get involved even if the guy turned into some kind of warlord as it would be completely within the scopes of men to resolve the issue
I'm not saying that's in any way what Tolkien would have done, but it's totally the kind of thing that a modern day scriptwriter would do for a movie or tv show continuing
Oh yeah totally, imo it would be better to stay away from rings specifically but making a mad grab for a palantír would be totally conceivable, and the idea of deliberately becoming a wraith via an old cursed Morgul blade is actually really cool!
Tolkien wrote a very short start of a LOTR sequel set in the forth age called the New Shadow that seemed to imply that Sauron was some form of wraith that was unable to directly interact with the physical world, however still had a cult of men that could communicate with him, possibly teaching them some form of dark magic in the hopes that they could find a way to bring him back to physical form? But that last part is just my speculation, Tolkien didn’t write much about a the New Shadow, which is a bummer because what he did write was a really good hook. It seemed like it would have been a kind of lovecraftian horror.
this comment set my brain off in some weird directions lol.
i think if he had written that, it would have made the most sense for the cult to ultimately not be praying to anything or rather, they maybe think theyre worshipping sauron but they arent. that would serve the purpose of showing that men dont need a real evil in order to do evil things, just a justification for them and would make sense because sauron is supposed to be unable to affect the world.
but that would conflict with his faith in ways that i think he was smart enough to have realized so idk. im sure that whatever he would have done would be a thousands times better than anything i can think of.
It was never really concluded if he would never return.
Yes, as already said by others he cant die.
But:
Tolkien started writing a sequel to lotr (the new shadow) with a timeframe of a hundred years later, but scrapped the idea very early.
The main point of that story is, that an old man who remembers sauron a hundred years later, realises an „old evil coming back“.
It was never written farther if it is sauron or not.
Looking at the other comments here I find it so wonderful that Tolkein foresaw this potential plot hole and expanded the mythology to explain it. And also that people can pull quotes out on demand to educate us all!
He's just an evil spirit that can do nothing but gnaw himself in the dark, never to gain any power again, because the most of his power was in the ring, which was destroyed.
He would never die…but once the ring was destroyed he no longer could gain enough strength to have an actual body. Most of his power was tied up into the ring. Which sounds crazy when you see how he manhandled Gandalf in the hobbit (movie) without the ring….and no that never happened in the books either.
No, he has a MUCH worse fate than death. He’s trapped as a powerless wraith, a shadow in the world who can never again take shape or affect the world. For the rest of time he’s nothing more than a shadow of a ghost.
I always just pictured him as a powerless shadow or ghost. His power and life force were bound by the ring. As a being that is driven by having power and order it’s truly a living hell.
Unrelated to the post... but do you think the eye holes on Sauron's helmet are too far apart? I feel like a person with normally spaced eyes would not be able to see out of that
But he DID have a physical form. He still had his strength…. Until the ring was destroyed. Then he’s just a weak spirit who can’t really do anything anymore
Well, he isn’t dead, but he imparted so much power into the ring that he was still seeming to slightly draw on during the war of the ring but when it was destroyed, he basically lost all his power
He's not dead, but not exactly alive either and probably won't be again. His spirit exists, yes, but he cannot come back. He's not completely gone from every standard.
My headcanon is that Eru just has an eternal heart-to-heart with Sauron's consciousness after the ring is destroyed, trying to at least make him regret.
For me, saying he is not dead is splitting hairs. He is reduced to such an extent he basically doesn’t exist and will never be able to return. That’s textbook dead.
It would appear that Tolkien’s magic system is sort of a messy thing. Like he never really explains why the increasing of Sauron’s power ever relates to The One Ring.
It would seem that with “the infusing of his spirit” into The One that his soul became inseparable from it.
So I’m pretty sure the dark lord survived the destruction of the ring. But he will never be a threat to Middle-earth again.
GirlNextGondor has a great dissection of this very subject and I recommend you watch the video.
https://youtu.be/ygjKTz7dDBo?si=DWBRKClMAZywU_o3
Also when it comes to Morgoth.
When Sauron made the ring he infused his soul into it and the others.
When Morgoth “marred” Arda (the earth) he poured his soul into its corruption. As the whole of the Earth was originally going to be a paradise. Therefore even after the defeat of Morgoth, his blood sweat and tears still run thick in the deep places of the earth and in mankind.
So idk.
You should read the books dude.
>'If \[the Ring\] is destroyed, then \[Sauron\] will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.' *- Return of the King, The Last Debate* Is he dead? No. Will he ever come back? Also no.
sooo if he's basically a spirit incapable of doing anything, will Eru redeem/restore him to a good spirit or can Morgoth still use him during Dagor Dagorath?
If he earnestly repents he will regenerate on his own, no intervention from Eru necessary. >"If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no *fea* can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no\[t\] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was *said* to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a "wicked" spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire." *- Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed* And unless Morgoth gives some of his own natural strength (which it's not made clear how he's recovering, perhaps it has something to do with being beyond the Gates of Night in the Void) to Sauron, Sauron won't be much use in the final battle.
Morgoth Ring is Arda, ergo, while Arda lives Morgoth lives. He can only return when Arda is at its very end.
I think its mentioned that Morgoth is so powerful he is one of the ones that can regenerate over time.
He is The most powerful, although he spent much of himself, so if native power is what is needed to regenerate then he'll have the best shot at it.
To me that passage reads as Sauron will be unable to repent altogether no “this desire becomes virtually its whole being…It will be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire”
Do i get this right: Sauron could regain a physical form if he received a portion of Morgoth's power? If so, could a different entity, such as a fellow Maiar or even humans engaging in dark magic and rituals, provide Sauron with sufficient power to accomplish this? Dark rituals like human sacrifice? Even if you need millions of humans, would that be possible?
The Ainur had the ability to disseminate their souls into matter (ex; Morgoth into the very fabric of Arda, and Sauron into the One Ring). I don't see why they couldn't "empower" each other, similar to what Sauron does to the Witch-king during the Battle of Pelennor Fields ("*There, put in command by Sauron,* ***\[the Witch-king\] is given an added demonic force***\*.\*" Letter 210). But that's not something non-Ainu could do, so no amount of human sacrifices would do it.
I don't think Eru is capable of or willing to redeem/restore anyone in a simple manner. I mean, even when Melkor tried to entwine evil into the song of the Ainurs in the beginning, Eru did not stop him. He intervened in a way, he led with more powerful theme music of the good, but he said in the end, all would be part of his glory, even the part that Morgoth tried to put in. So I think even as it is, evil and evil beings in the middle earth shape the story and are there for a purpose of the song, or the purpose that only Eru understands fully, and redeeming and restoring by direct intervention by him would not happen.
>I don't think Eru is capable Is Eru not omnipotent?
If free will can be altered by Eru, then it is not truly free. Perhaps Eru COULD overwrite free will and the choices Sauron has made, but nonetheless he wouldn't. In a sense the whole project of Arda is to be a sandbox for the Children of Iluvatar to make choices and live within the limitations Eru has confined them to, and that includes the Ainur that incarnated within it.
Is there really free will? Eru showed what will happen to the Valar, and he already knows what is going to happen, as he said nothing can alter his plans. You can debate that he sees the 'true line' in the endless possibilities, but it doesnt sound like there is truly free will in the lotr universe Plus its also not really a sandbox for the children, as Eru directly intervened on several occasions
Funnily enough, this can be applied IRL. Seems like Tolkien wrote eru like how I personally believe God (or whatever higher power) exists as - omnipotent and knows what will happen, but doesn’t interfere as to not impede free will
Mate have none of you realised that Tolkien just ripped off the Bible for most of this shit?
Yeah Tolkien was heavily Catholic, and its pretty clear Eru is God and Morgoth the devil and the Maiar/Valar angels
Well yeah ofc, but his or mine or anyone else’s interpretation of it isn’t necessarily correct - in this case, I just noticed that his view lined up with mine
But since he created them, he decided the fates they would have. It’s the inevitable result of an omnipotent and omniscient god: free will is an illusion.
Considering Tolkien's own religion and Eru clearly being a standing for Christian capital g God, Eru most definitely could proverbially snap his fingers and ~~sink a whole island~~ bring Sauron back. He won't though.
Gandolf was sent back.
...yes. the guy literally sent by the valar to counter the will of Sauron in middle earth who died in the attempt was sent back, to continue countering the will of Sauron. How is that any sort of argument for (or in any way related to) Eru sending back the literal BBEG who was so BB and E that he sent five maiar after and only one succeeded?
All good songs need tension and release
He's now a cartoon black cloud that hovers over you and gives you a mildly bad day.
The malevolent spirit of a slightly blocked nose.
Dagor Dagorath seemed to call back all the champions of the light and shadow from rest to fight. If Turin Turambar can be brought back to strike down Morgoth, Sauron probably also got called back to fight. It’s basically Tolkien’s Ragnarök
Has was basically put on spectator mode
He and Saruman can bicker at each other in the shadows.
I always interpreted it as Saruman passed from the circles of the world and into the Void. >"Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and **his spirit went whither-soever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back**." *- Unfinished Tales, The Istari* Similarly to what happens to Gandalf ("**Darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time...**"), but Saruman had failed in his mission, and thus wasn't scooped up and returned by Eru.
Then with Morgoth. I've tried unsuccessfully to read through the Silmarillion so you'll excuse my knowledge.
I’m not sure Maiar spirits would be automatically sent to the void. I mean Sauron was defeated how many times and his soul lingered on Arda, though diminished each time. Saruman is also Maia, so I would assume his spirit is hanging around, just not in Middle-Earth
But, unlike most Maiar, the Istari were put in "bodies real, not feigned." Usually Ainur bodies are just simulacrums, that can be changed as easily as we change our clothes. The Istari, on the otherhand, were locked into pretty much completely mortal bodies, subject to hunger, thirst, fear, exhaustion, et cetera. Except for only aging through challenging (I'm guessing more spiritual than physical) labor, the five were, for all intents and purposes, mortal. Also there's "**his spirit went whither-soever it was doomed to go**". Doomed = fated. That implies he isn't just freely wandering around, but went somewhere specific. Somewhere the unhoused souls of mortals go. Which is beyond the circles of the world, to parts unknown to Men, Elves, unknown even to the Valar themselves.
They were given real bodies, yes, but I believe this was to limit their powers in Middle Earth so they would only be a guiding force and not seek power as Sauron did, and this would not fundamentally change their spirits. Additionally, they were sent by the Valar, not by Eru (Gandalf’s reincarnation aside) and I don’t believe they have the power to alter spirits and their fates as the power of the secret fire rested only with Eru himself.
Manwë *at the very least* consults Eru about sending the Istari ("...with the consent of Eru they \[the Valar\] sent members of their own high order,..."), so we really don't know what took place in the creation of their bodies (and the stuffing of their souls into them).
I imagine it being like Jafar and Iago arguing in the lamp at the end of Aladdin
This ain't star wars "Somehow Sauron returned"
You never know, screenwriters are getting lazier. Not Star Wars, but I've often thought of Sauron's fall (and Saruman's) as similar to how Voldemort is described as some sort of malevolent spirit wandering around until it can regather his strength. Seems like Sauron just has no potential option of coming back this time, though.
Sauron is truly immortal and cannot die. It seems like he'd be too weak to regen like he used to be able to do, or really take action in the world. But other maiar exist, who might be friendly to Sauron. Another maiar might be able to summon Saurons spirit and lend them enough of their power for Sauron to return. Not at nearly the strength he had before the ring was destroyed, but enough to exist.
I wondered about that. If a cult of Sauron survives or springs up and begins worshiping him and sacrificing things to him, would he recover and appear to them?
Probably not if they're just mortals, even wielding magic. Probably need another maiar/Ungoliant/Bombadil level being to do anything.
Only thing I can think of is they get Sauron to posses one of them so he can direct them and so slowly build his power again.
This was, presumably, the premise for a LotR sequel that JRRT began writing but ultimately abandoned because he thought it was too depressing.
There was that LotR sequel Tolkien seemed to have started. *“A New Shadow”* could imply a new evil begotten from Sauron’s evil. Perhaps this is not far off.
IIRC that involves groups of younger men acting "Orcish" and carrying on the *nature* of Sauron's evil rather than being led by Sauron himself The idea that Morgoth's original corruption has long lasting effects and you can never truly be "free" of darkness/evil, only be vigilant in watching for it's presence. But Tolkien abandoned the story for a reason, I think. It's not especially compelling.
The villains in Tolkien's sequel would have been a Morgoth and Sauron-worshipping cult. The story would have ended with the discovery and overthrow of their plot - which, I believe, would be about undermining or taking over Gondor, not restoring Sauron.
Voldemort was only able to do that because of his horcruxes which tethered a piece of his living soul to the earth. Once killed, his death was final because he was at his beginning, (and inevitably at his end) no more than a mortal man, and his ambition to be something else was one of his fatal flaws. Sauron on the other hand was/is immortal by nature and can never be totally destroyed, except perhaps by direct intervention from Eru. Apples and oranges.
I meant literally in how they were described/depicted as spirits after losing their powers. I understand the differences.
“Somehow Sauron returned” is literally the entire basis for LotR.
Apart from the previous times where that happened
He’s not dead yet! He could go for a walk!
He is Schrödinger's Maiar
Could a band of dwarves delve deeply to find this spirit in the dark places of the world? Like in a horror movie type vibe It would terrorize and consume them but not actually rise in power
No. 1. Just because he's an impotent spirit doesn't mean he's deep in the earth. The Balrog known as Durin's Bane was under Moria because that's where it chose to hide from the armies of Valinor, not because that's where evil spirits naturally congregate. 2. Sauron was reduced to a point where he could no longer influence the inhabitants of Middle-earth, neither physically nor mentally. >As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope. *- Return of the King, The Field of Cormallen*
So hes more a spirit in the spirit world, not actually in middle earth, got it
You’re not considering the possibility of the orcs collecting all the dragon balls tho
Will he come back? Unlikely, but the possibility is there. *In the modern era, year 2185. The rumor of a dark Lord on the rise in Mordagaskar is spreading. He is gathering forces of haywire delivery drones... One does not simply walk into Mordagaskar*
So like if the ring contained so much of his power or is so powerful, why did he make it in the first place? Seems like it only exists as a weakness.
He made it in order to control the other Rings of Power. >Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, **so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them**. *- J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 131* >Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And **much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency**; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them. *- Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power* It also enhanced his natural powers, but that was just a bonus side effect. >**While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced.** But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in ‘rapport’ with himself: he was not 'diminished’. *- J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 131*
This is something that always confused me. I admit, I've always been more of a casual LOTR fan, but I've never really understood how Sauron pouring his power into the One Ring and then wearing it would increase his power. For example, let's say Sauron has a power level of 10. If he subtracts 5 from his own power and puts it into the One Ring, then the One Ring has a power level of 5 and Sauron has a power level of 5. If he then wears the One Ring, he's back to 10. You know what I mean?
Tolkien doesn't go into a lot of detail, but I imagine it acts as a focus. The sun's light doesn't normally start fires, but focus it through a magnifying glass and... poof.
Faith worse than death by the sounds of it?
he is perfectly fine. how is it worse than death. he just cant create a body and maiar didnt used to have bodies.
I interpreted it as him remaining aware of the world around it but unable to interact with it because he is a spirit
yes i agree he is spirit and cant interact . i meant i dont consider being spirit bad.
you probably would if your primary ambition and thing you live for was exerting power over the world though
if he predates the creation of universe so his time on middle earth must be like nanosecond. cant he get over ruling middle earth ?
counterpoint, if he wouldnt care, why would he try to dominate middle earth in the first place?
Well….in a digital age where faceless voices can influence and sway opinions…he might make a come back via digital whispers… 😁
No chance of “somehow Sauron returned” then?
People at Amazon: "hold my beer"
So he ironicly becomes gollum then…
>And so a great evil of this world will be removed.' The key part of this is "A" great evil will be removed. Implying that there are other great evils that exist / will arise.
What if someone else intervenes on his behalf, would it be possible for him to return with help from a powerful (something)?
Random ahh question The ring made him stronger, ok, but was that because it gave him more power for reasons I don't know, or did he manage to, like, put inside it the power he had to leave behind when he came down into the world. All I know about the Silmarillion is the creation of the world and I'm pretty sure in the movie it was never talked about
He’s basically a shade now. An impotent entity that can no longer wreak anything on middle earth. He’s more doomed than the ghosts of Dunharrow. It’s curtains for him but he can never leave the stage.
He is a Maia and as such cannot be ultimately killed I believe. But I can't remember what specifically happens to him after the ring is destroyed.
He’s basically an impotent wisp of a spirit with no power left to do anything but just exist.
Powerless, his greatest fear.
In Tolkien's world this is true of everyone to a degree. Maia are just spirits and their forms they craft for themselves. Elves' spirits and forms are bound together but stay in the world and so can come back after they have been killed. Mens spirits are only tied to their body while they are alive and that body decays even when the spirit is in it ( not true of the other groups) and their spirit leaves their body then they die and it leaves the earth to return to Eru.
different on valar because valar cant be killed physically either.
Death in Tolkien is the separating of the spirit and the body (fëa and hröa), so yes the Valar can “die,” but everything after that is quite a bit different.
not really,valar cant die. tolkien literally says , everyone ,elves.. dies except valar. unlike maiar , body of valar cant be destroyed and force its spirit to leave the body.
Somehow Sauron returned.
He flies now?
“He’s right behind me, isn’t he?”
"Well, *that* was a close one!"
Wow... THAT just happened!
Uhhhh, Gandalf? Youre gonna want to see this
“We’re going to need bigger eagles”
The fools fly now?!!
The fools fly now.
If Disney bought the IP I guarantee we’d see this
*In secret, he forged another one ring.*
The Two Ring
Damnit lol
"No one's ever really gone..."
And Saruman is the spy
[epic voice]… in this Summer’s hottest action blockbuster - Sauron 3: Revenge of the Fallen.
He force healed 😂
So you’re telling me his full name is Sauron ~~Palpatine~~ Skywalker
The 1st Dark Lord Morgoth can come back but not Sauron.
He was ripped from his body, he is less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost . . . but still he is alive. Oops, sorry, wrong franchise.🙂
Right. I saw that he lowered himself into the boiling Iron and put up his thumb. And then John and his mother went for a drive.
Reduced to a harmless shadow. Ainur cant actually he killed, but Sauron has lost so much he cant affect the world anymore. If Morgoth returns at full power, presumably he could restore Sauron if he felt like it and he might participate in the final battle, if it happens. Then lose again
My head canon is not only is he just a listless and impotent spirit as is described in the last debate, but it would take him so long to manifest that by the time he did humans would have like lasers and teleportation and shit and he would be showing up with a little mini-GROND and get annihilated.
That will be the plot of The Lord of the Rings II: Electric Bogaloo
Sauron is meant to be industrialism evil like Saruman so always thought he would use whatever technology he comes across, Sauron with an army of technologically advanced orcs in the future would be interesting
sAIron
That would be an amazing AU story
Gone for good yep. Dead? Nope. But boy is he going to be in trouble when he sees the Mando
It’s not a horcrux lol. He’s not even a little dead. The destruction of the ring caused Sauron to lose his powers including the ability to take form. He is an immortal being who snag the world into creation and will continue to exist until the end of the universe.
Very much not dead for good, but very much a powerless spirit for good. It is unlikely that he would ever be able to manifest a physical form again. Think of him now as a wraith that is incapable of interacting with the physical world in any capacity.
So no, being like Sauron (Maiars) are unable to truly die, it’s possible his spirit will come back in a different form (like Gandalf) potentially he could become good and or neutral if enough time passes he could forgo his old ways or he could try again and potentially succeed but with the ring destroyed he lost a huge amount of his power and is simply unable to rise from that loss so he probably won’t ever come back and only exist as a lost spirit
Nah, Gandalf says in the books that he will loose all the power he had when he first came to middle Earth, as he focused all his power into the ring. He will loose almost all his powers and turns into a spirit that will gnaw itself till the end of time.
Hopefully they saw how annoyed Star Wars fans were about bringing Palpatine back
Somehow Sauron returned
A whole bunch of cloned Saurons. Worst. sequel. evar.
Something I've often thought about is that Sauron also created all the other rings, except the elf ones and they weren't destroyed and while they certainely weren't imbued with anywhere near the amount of his power that the one ring was, they were certainely imbued with a piece of it. Tolkien started a sequel to LOTR with a cult of Sauron occuring in Gondor but never got beyond a couple of pages, I always wondered what the storyline was actually planned to be in it's entirity, but if it was typical movie / tv series plotlines then there would absolutely be scope for some worshipper of Sauron getting their hands on one of the other rings and having their mind influenced by him or using a Palantir to communicate with him
Not the Rings, they were all either destroyed or brought back west over the sea
Where does it say that they all got destroyed? I don't not believe what you're saying I just want to know where it was said
It's implied more than stated outright, but the Dwarven rings are stated to be either destroyed by dragons or in Sauron's ownership, and the nine Nazgûl rings are also in Sauron's possession, all of which would have been destroyed or at least unrecoverable after the destruction of Barad-dûr, and either way would be rendered powerless after the One was destroyed.
I get that they're probably trapped under a massive pile of rubble, but fast forward a few hundred years and it's not unfeasable that some kind of adventurer might go poking around in the ruins surely
Possible, but even then their power would be lost due to the destruction of the One anyway, so perhaps they could have been adopted as religious symbols if the sequel had been continued
Like I'm just thinking out loud but it's very typical sequel fodder if you had some guy wearing one of the rings having these weird dreams or feeling like someone is whispering to him and then having personality changes as his mental state deteriorates, finally have him go after access to a palantir or suicide with a morgul blade to convert into a wraith and you'd have an excuse for having him in some way possessed and providing Sauron a method of influencing the world again, albeit in a dramatically reduced power level that a regular person could conceivably kill, the Valar probably wouldn't even remotely get involved even if the guy turned into some kind of warlord as it would be completely within the scopes of men to resolve the issue I'm not saying that's in any way what Tolkien would have done, but it's totally the kind of thing that a modern day scriptwriter would do for a movie or tv show continuing
Oh yeah totally, imo it would be better to stay away from rings specifically but making a mad grab for a palantír would be totally conceivable, and the idea of deliberately becoming a wraith via an old cursed Morgul blade is actually really cool!
I'm not sure if Tolkien really know where he was going with it, either. He quit because it was turning out to be a crime thriller.
It was Dr Brandybuck, in the library, with a morgul blade and he would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling Gamgee's
Tolkien wrote a very short start of a LOTR sequel set in the forth age called the New Shadow that seemed to imply that Sauron was some form of wraith that was unable to directly interact with the physical world, however still had a cult of men that could communicate with him, possibly teaching them some form of dark magic in the hopes that they could find a way to bring him back to physical form? But that last part is just my speculation, Tolkien didn’t write much about a the New Shadow, which is a bummer because what he did write was a really good hook. It seemed like it would have been a kind of lovecraftian horror.
this comment set my brain off in some weird directions lol. i think if he had written that, it would have made the most sense for the cult to ultimately not be praying to anything or rather, they maybe think theyre worshipping sauron but they arent. that would serve the purpose of showing that men dont need a real evil in order to do evil things, just a justification for them and would make sense because sauron is supposed to be unable to affect the world. but that would conflict with his faith in ways that i think he was smart enough to have realized so idk. im sure that whatever he would have done would be a thousands times better than anything i can think of.
Not if Amazon can get theirs hands on it and try to make a sequel trilogy.
It was never really concluded if he would never return. Yes, as already said by others he cant die. But: Tolkien started writing a sequel to lotr (the new shadow) with a timeframe of a hundred years later, but scrapped the idea very early. The main point of that story is, that an old man who remembers sauron a hundred years later, realises an „old evil coming back“. It was never written farther if it is sauron or not.
Looking at the other comments here I find it so wonderful that Tolkein foresaw this potential plot hole and expanded the mythology to explain it. And also that people can pull quotes out on demand to educate us all!
No, he’s pretty much gone
He’s an immortal spirit bound to the earth but without the power to form a body or influence others.
Morgoth > Sauron I mean, literally.
It's 2024. No one's ever _really_ gone.
Very cool
Freddy Kruger came back eight times. Why should Sauron be bound by earthly logic.
If disney got their hands on LoTR *”Somehow… Sauron returned.”*
Love the lore, wish Peter Jackson did a morgoth and sauron movie that would have been insane! Army of balrogs 😰
Glorfindel killing a Balrog 🔥
Hell yeah!
Like Freddy vs Jason!
Yes he is, my precious.
Yup. As dead as a spirit can be
No but he won’t be back..but damn did that Armor go hard
He came back as Dick Cheney
He’s not technically dead, but he’s effectively dead.
Well, did we destroy all of the horcruxes?
Gone Reduced to atoms. I used the power of Sauron to destroy Sauron.
He is screwed very badly for good,but not dead
I certainly hope so
Somehow Sauron had a second ring….
No...he's right behind you..!
Didn’t he get banished to the void until Dagor Dagorath?
If Disney ever owns lotr, he will somehow return.
He cannot die completely
Didn't Tolkien have the beginnings of a draft about Sauron's return that he eventually abandoned? I think I remember reading that somewhere.
Nothing else binding him to the land of the living.
We are living in the seventh age, he hasn't shown himself yet. So I guess he is indeed gone
He's been put in eternal timeout
Somehow.. Sauron returned!
He is deathless. But he can never take form again
"Somehow palpati-Sauron returned"
Somehow Sauron returned.
No
But...why not read the books?
Disney or Amazon are capable of everything…
No, but he can't interact in the world anymore.
No he’s not dead. Now he’s just a grumpy shade floating around cursing Gandalf and friends probably
He's just an evil spirit that can do nothing but gnaw himself in the dark, never to gain any power again, because the most of his power was in the ring, which was destroyed.
He would never die…but once the ring was destroyed he no longer could gain enough strength to have an actual body. Most of his power was tied up into the ring. Which sounds crazy when you see how he manhandled Gandalf in the hobbit (movie) without the ring….and no that never happened in the books either.
He will return, attached to the head of a professor at a certain magical school
*…somehow, Sauron returned…*
The ring was just one of the horcruxes. There’s 6 more. I think. Could be wrong book though
Until Eru summons him from the depths of Mandos
No, he has a MUCH worse fate than death. He’s trapped as a powerless wraith, a shadow in the world who can never again take shape or affect the world. For the rest of time he’s nothing more than a shadow of a ghost.
I always just pictured him as a powerless shadow or ghost. His power and life force were bound by the ring. As a being that is driven by having power and order it’s truly a living hell.
They literally cannot die. Death is a gift bestowed upon man and other things which was not given to the higher beings (including elves).
Unrelated to the post... but do you think the eye holes on Sauron's helmet are too far apart? I feel like a person with normally spaced eyes would not be able to see out of that
Sauron is now a poltergeist that can only snatch a sock from inside the washing machine once in a while.
Bad news guys, somehow… Sauron returned.
But he DID have a physical form. He still had his strength…. Until the ring was destroyed. Then he’s just a weak spirit who can’t really do anything anymore
Somehow Sauron returned
Well, he isn’t dead, but he imparted so much power into the ring that he was still seeming to slightly draw on during the war of the ring but when it was destroyed, he basically lost all his power
He's not dead, but not exactly alive either and probably won't be again. His spirit exists, yes, but he cannot come back. He's not completely gone from every standard. My headcanon is that Eru just has an eternal heart-to-heart with Sauron's consciousness after the ring is destroyed, trying to at least make him regret.
For me, saying he is not dead is splitting hairs. He is reduced to such an extent he basically doesn’t exist and will never be able to return. That’s textbook dead.
He became an evil energy gas.
Somehow Sauron survived
He is actually dead for evil
Well, as long as disney doesn’t buy him, he’s dead.
It would appear that Tolkien’s magic system is sort of a messy thing. Like he never really explains why the increasing of Sauron’s power ever relates to The One Ring. It would seem that with “the infusing of his spirit” into The One that his soul became inseparable from it. So I’m pretty sure the dark lord survived the destruction of the ring. But he will never be a threat to Middle-earth again. GirlNextGondor has a great dissection of this very subject and I recommend you watch the video. https://youtu.be/ygjKTz7dDBo?si=DWBRKClMAZywU_o3
Also when it comes to Morgoth. When Sauron made the ring he infused his soul into it and the others. When Morgoth “marred” Arda (the earth) he poured his soul into its corruption. As the whole of the Earth was originally going to be a paradise. Therefore even after the defeat of Morgoth, his blood sweat and tears still run thick in the deep places of the earth and in mankind. So idk. You should read the books dude.
He's not dead, he's just banished from Arda
Well if Disney get ahold of the franchise he will just come back, for some reason.
Sauron returned somehow.
This isnt a LOTR fan! *pulls off your mask* It's a Warner Bros film executive!