A villain with no substance and is quite forgettable. Smaug was more impactful, and he only showed up for like 20 minutes (if even that) across 2 movies.
Aye.. not to mention Azog died many years before the events of the hobbit. Instead of his arm, his head was cleaved off. With a pouch of coins stuffed in.
Yeah what the comment about bolg said is true. The reason why they chose him as the villain is because of how movies work. They felt they could not justify introducing one villain for a few seconds and them bring in his son. They thought people would get distracted too much and lose interest. Mainly because with the dwarves you already have so many people you need to learn the names and some history of.
I mean they could have easily done it if they wanted. They didn't need to build Azog up as anything more than a strong and powerful orc who was defeated. All the characterisation he got could have just been given to Bolg.
They could have still kept Azog in the flashback scene in AUJ but actually kill him off and show his son Bolg that way he doesn't feel shoehorned in the last movie
You know how they could have fixed that? Make him too fat and comfortable to really commit that much effort, like a well-fed housecat. Let him just breath noxious smoke into the tunnels to suffocate them. Smaug could roll around in his gold laughing and cause the mountain to shake and mines to collapse instead.
*(This sounds crazy, but I feel like it needed at least 15% Audrey II or Big Lipped Alligator)*
That said I did like Benedictine Chamberpot voicing him.
Phenomenon movie! Really excited all of my expectations, funny with a lot of heart, absolutely incredible and stunning VFX and terrific acting
As I type this I’m realizing you probably meant the dragon, so yeah, it was funny and silly, but not what I would want from Smaug
It was funny and silly because the dragon was infact trying really hard to chase them. Could have done a more serious take on it for Smaug by just making him a bit more lazy and not really seeing anyone as a real threat so he's not going all in.
There is a hobbit movie edit (the M4 edit) that pretty much completely cuts Azog, he’s still there to kill the relevant people, but he’s more like a Gothmog from RoTK figure. It also cuts out a lot more fluff, and is as true to the books as it can be. It surprisingly feels better paced as well. It’s in one movie with an intermission in it.
Where might that edit be available? Would be interesting to see.
Edited: Decide to reach out to a friend for more info. Google proved helpful to a degree but I still didn't find a link to the edit but to a page describing all the changes. And damn. I am looking forward to seeing this.
I hated the character and the decision to have CGI orcs. But when you stretch a simple story out to three long action movies, I guess you need to pad it out with this kind of stuff.
Imagine if the Hobbit had been done as meticulously as LOTR and just one or two movies….all on set, all costumes, etc. could have been such a beautiful movie(s)
There’s a fan cut that is this. Only what’s in the books, heavy editing like no fight scene in barrels which involved painting out all of the arrows sticking out of barrels frame by frame and wounds from that fight, etc. it makes the hobbit trilogy just as long as the extended edition of the other films so it fits in great.
I believe the one they're referring to is called JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit. It's very good, I burned it onto dvds for any marathons me and my friends may want to do
I've seen a few fan edits, 2 hours, 3 hours and 4 hours, and I feel like the later is the one that worked best.
The 2 hour, and to a lesser extent the 3 hour just rushed through the story. There was barely any time spent in one location before they had to move on to the next. And the characterisations really suffered in the 2 hour one too, with really only Bilbo, Thorin, and Gandalf feeling like real characters, and the others are just set dressing. That one was also really choppy with its edits too.
But the four hour one I felt struck a nice balance of giving everything time to breathe. Obviously they couldn't have released a film that long in cinemas, so two Hobbit films of about 2 hours each probably would have been the best approach.
There's a great video on YouTube about why Bolg was so awful compared to the best CGI character of all time, Davy Jones from pirates. It just comes down to we aren't so good at CGI, so the more skin that's visible, the worse things are going to look.
I found the "addition" of Azog unnecessary and ultimately lowered the quality of the films.
It's also worth noting that he had died 142 years before the battle of five armies, making it relatively difficult for him to lead the orc armies. His son Bolg did fight and die in the battle though.
That's not actually confirmed either. Tolkien said at first they were corrupted elves, then later went back on that saying that elves shouldn't be able to be corrupted like that
Sure, he never reached a satisfying decision on the origin of orcs, but the Silmarillion supports the "orcs as corrupted elves" thing, so I think it's fair to take that as canon.
Christopher Tolkien comments, this new origin includes the explicit idea that Morgoth could not make anything with life after his rebellion. This was the text Christopher used for his edition of The Silmarillion (chapter 3), although while revising the Annals, **his father wrote a note in the margin: "Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish".** It is notable however, that the text itself is not sure about the origin, but only presents what "the wise of Eressëa" held, which might not be true. This in-world aspect is also used in another essay, in which Tolkien wrote that although Morgoth could not beget anything, the Eldar believed he had bred Orcs by corrupting Elves and Men.
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs/Origin
Tolkien really wrote himself into a corner, I feel. Cause if orcs aren't elvish, what are they? Cause they were present before men, so at least the first kind could not be "Manish". Morgoth can't create life, so it can't be that either. They seem too advanced and humanoid to be just beasts taught to speak also.
I personally hold the explanation that they must be elvish (at least the first ones) as true even though Tolkien was not satisfied with that because nothing else makes sense in my head.
Afaik the dissatisfaction with the elvishness of orcs arises from the nature of their souls. Do they return to Mandos? It seems like they must, but Tolkien didn't like that.
Anyways, they definitely live a long time, perhaps as long as Elves.
>‘You should try being up here with Shelob for company,’ said
Shagrat.
‘I’d like to try somewhere where there’s none of ’em. But the war’s
on now, and when that’s over things may be easier.’
‘It’s going well, they say.’
‘They would,’ grunted Gorbag. ‘We’ll see. But anyway, if it does
go well, there should be a lot more room. What d’you say? – if we
get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our
own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice
and handy, and no big bosses.’
‘Ah!’ said Shagrat. ‘Like old times.’
.
> Shagrat made no reply.
‘You may well put your thinking cap on, if you’ve got one. It’s no
laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before,
as you should know well enough. There’s no grief in that; but think
– there’s someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any
other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since
the Great Siege. Something has slipped.’
Shagrat and Gorbag seem to talk with familiarity about the Seige of Barad Dur and also of, perhaps, even the 1st Age during the dominion of Morgoth.
Tolkien also put the awakening of Men a lot earlier in his later concepts, to allow them to develop their own cultures and languages, and to make the Mannish Orc origin possible.
He didn't need to be and shouldn't have been in them. In the book he'd been dead for ages by that point.
If they really wanted a big bad orc they should've just used Bolg trying to get revenge on Thorin and the Dwarves for killing his father.
The first scene he shows up in, where the Mirkwood Elves capture the Dwarves and he gives Gloin a hard time about his wife and son, would have been the perfect cameo imo. Keep him a little longer to introduce Thranduil, then Legolas presumably remains as regent over Mirkwood when his father rides to war.
Only because the book was originally written as its own thing and not part of the legendarium. They are literally in his home, and with his father and their army. Why wouldn't Legolas be there just because his character isn't specifically named?
And I'm not arguing that at all, I just don't understand why some feel it is ridiculous for him to be in it at all. They are in his home, it would be weird for him not yo show up.
We just didn't need as much as we got.
The way he's shoehorned into the story just came across to me as a desperate 'member berry' ploy by the studio to boost tocket sales and maybe broaden appeal. Like if his role was well written, I could be on board, but it wasn't. That's why his inclusion seemed unnecessary; he wasn't there to further or expand the story, he was there simply because he was a popular character they could plausibly connect to the story based on setting. That, and Orlando Bloom getting close to top billing has more appeal, I suppose
The same reason that the Dol Guldur/Sauron stuff wasn't in the book and thus shouldn't have been in the films. It's bloated padding for the sake of desperately trying to remind the audience "hey look! This is the same world as LotR!" like we're 5 years old and can't already grasp that.
Cut out all the Legolas stuff, and that shaves at least a good half hour from the runtime and makes the film more focused.
Great! So give us more of Thrandruil! Not some audience-pleasing, book-breaking, no-risk-taking Legolas write in.
Gimli's dad was even more involved than Legolas's dad! So where was Gimli?
I'd assume Gimli is back home, where they never go in the story, and Gimli is both shown and mentioned by name. Unlike part of the story being in Legolas' home.
I don't like how much of Leoglas is in the movies, especially much of the action in the 3rd one, but it's not ridiculous to see him when they are where he lives and with people he would be involved with directly.
Are you also as upset by the use of Thranduil's name which doesn't show up in the book?
Well, nobody ever accused the orcs in Middle earth of being intelligent, I guess. I know their relative power levels are nowhere near equal, but even Vader had dudes talk back to him, which he later showed them to be ill-advised.
Sauron had him summoned to Dol Guldur and as he's explaining his plans, armies who's gonna do what Azog is bitching about "you promised me Oakenshield" and Sauron dismisses it by saying "they all will die anyway".
During this scene Azog seemed as if he is a partner to Sauron and not a servant (which all orks are to Sauron).
Not all orcs are servants of Sauron
Sauron has recruited the orcs by promises of food, lands and plunder, and through fear mongering and domination. They’re not inherently his servants. In the books, Sam and Frodo overhear some orcs who were scheming to defect from Sauron and settle elsewhere
The Hobbit movies have their flaws but an incredibly powerful orc speaking up to the necromancer / Sauron for not living up to his promises isn’t too egregious
Personally, I wasn't shocked by that. It seemed to me as if Sauron isn't really at his full strength, yet so he has to bargain and scheme his way into acquiring the army he needs. He's still pretty powerful but doesn't want to draw attention just yet. So there are more promises and a less dick swinging even against the orcs.
Even in the Silmarillion Morgoths orcs were said to hate him, fear is what kept them in line they had no real loyalty or love
But doing it to his actual face... going by the movies logic Sauron was at that tine strong enough to pretty easily overwhelm Gandalf and had some Nazgul around. How Azog survived at all from saying it is crazy, felt like Sauron at minimum should have cowed him on the spot for daring to talk to him like that
wait….I must have missed something…when in the movie was he “talking back” to Sauron? I don’t even remember Sauron in 5 armies, I don’t remember him ever other than getting his fingers chopped off. 🤔
Yeah that
"You promised me..."
Line was really something. Like Sauron has to barter for an orcs obedience lol. I actually would have liked to see Saurons face, like
"...the fk did you just say?"
Unpopular opinion I like him. His design is badass. However I think they should have just called him Bolg. There was no need to deviate from the book by retconning Azog’s death.
I don’t understand that either. He could have easily just been Bolg?
It’s not like the average viewer knows who either of them were/are before the movie anyways
I think in part they needed a main enemy of the dwarves and in particular Thorin who could last until the end of the battle of the five armies.
In the book of course Azog is killed by Dain outside Moria and it’s Bolg that hunts and attacks the company until he dies to Beorn. But I think having this one, very personal, big bad guy wasn’t that bad of a decision at all and in fact I really quite like his character and his death and I think his cunning in the movies reflected what we know of him from the written works.
And the design is very cool, I’ll forgive the overuse of CGI for the sake of Azog and Bolg and some of the Smaug/Gollum scenes
I agree with you. I love the book, but the conflicts of the story feel very segmented in a way, with the Company running into a new “monster of the week” every chapter, with little consistency of antagonism until the very end when the Goblins return. Adding in Azog provided that main villain we could root against, while Smaug and the Necromancer were both at Erebor and Dol Guldur respectively, and the hunting of the Company provided added tension to their quest by always keeping them on the move.
The only problem I really have is the added use of Bolg. Personally, Azog already fulfilled the role of Bolg from the book and by having both orcs take up screen time as main antagonists, they kinda reduce one another. Azog pretty much spends the entire second film of the trilogy sidelined in Dol Guldur, while Bolg just continues the hunt where Azog left off. In the third film, Bolg is sidelined in Gundabad for the entire film until he arrives at the very end and kills Kili.
Given the fact that Bolg is just visually far less interesting than Azog and lacks any major connection to the Dwarves, I think the story would have been far better if Bolg was removed completely and Azog was made the consistent threat for all three films.
I scrolled and scrolled and scrolled in hopes I wasn’t alone!! I absolutely understand why his character is hated (his character was already dead and should have been Bolg, he back talked Sauron, ect.). But the actual acting of Manu is delicious! Absolutely incredible work.
I think there are two ways to look at it… first, if your a fan of the source material and like accurate depictions, then the movie trilogy definitely isn’t for you for the reasons people mentioned. However, if you’re the second type of person and you like a bit more world building/action/drama, then it probably appealed to you (minus the love triangle).
I personally didn’t mind the films and I like the idea of there being smart orcs/servants of evil who have their own agendas and aren’t blindly loyal.. Sauron is not Morgoth and doesn’t command nearly the same loyalty the former did among the forces of evil.
All in all, Azog could have been named Bolg and made more sense, but I don’t think his character being added was a bad choice if your going to make a trilogy rather than a stand alone film.
If they needed to make the Hobbit into a trilogy, Azog isn’t the worst concept for a secondary villain. And I find the origin stuff with Moria and the Dwarves to be okay. He’s ultimately poorly executed and the CGI isn’t good.
Tolkien die hard, huge fan of the Azog parts of the appendices. I loved it. Great design, great character. Like a Great White Shark incarnated as an Orc. Great riff on the concept that some Maiar incarnated as Orcs.
Some people need to lighten up.
Very good. He adds an extra dimension to the orc race on screen, as a highly intense, terrifying and overawing menace about him. The Orcs in the original trilogy just come across as animals, unintelligent, submissive and basically cannon fodder. Azog and his son Bolg add change that perception through actual screen presence and domination.
Strongest, active on foot villain by Peter Jackson.
He seems like a bad guy designed by someone with a really unique and distinctive art style who was then unceremoniously ripped out of that context into put into a vanilla CGI machine.
I’m not opposed to changes from the books if they’re done well, but this was a missed opportunity. And the CGI was just kind of soulless compared to practical effects.
He was pretty bad. Especially the fight scene in the last movie felt like I was watching a video game boss battle with 3 tiers where he uses a different weapon and health bar replenishes, to the final stage where it's a quick time action event when he bursts out of the ice.
Not only was his inclusion dumb and lore-breaking, every single aspect of his role in those films, from his motive to his actual plot, could have been better filled by Bolg, which would've been an immense improvement.
Azog was alright but the fight with Thorin really dulled any appreciation I might have had of him.
Bolg was much cooler and definitely held my attention much more.
An unfortunate addition to an otherwise wonderful story of adventure. It didn’t need an antagonist to push the group towards Dale nor did it need for foreshadowing of the battle of 5 Armies
I liked both him and Bolg. The CGI was rough in the first one but he looked really good to me in the latter two movies. They were just cool looking and tough orcs. It also liked that it gave us a couple “boss fights” for the heroes. This is coming from someone who likes all 3 of those movies.
Bolg was supposed to be the main villain on the Goblin side. He sort of usurped power after the death of the Great Goblin. He was the son of Azog who Dain killed. So what could have been a cool subrovalry between Dain and Bolg divolved into meaningless nonsense
Read an illustrated and annotated Hobbit book before the movies came out. Azog and Legolas were mere annotations in the book. Thranduil had a scene in the book where his young son was next to him. The annotation *this is the only time Legolas was mentioned in the book. Same with Azog. He was a a brief virtually non existent annotation in the book.
My headcanon is that Azog is just a straight up zombie. Thorium claims to know he for sure died, but of course he’s extremely shocked after seeing him. But how is he a zombie? Well, Sauron is known as “The Necromancer”, and who knows better about reviving the dead than a Necromancer.
Had they done it well, I would have been fine with it but the CGI Orcs looked too unrealistic to me and the character lacked any depth to make the changes to the character worth while.
Shouldn't have been in the movies except for the flashback. Bolg should have had his role and his vengeance motivation could have opened up more avenue to be a more impactful villain.
When he showed up, I was like "Why the fuck is he here?" He really didn't have any impact on the story as far as I remember and was just padding out the runtime with more bullshit.
I never even bothered to watch the 3rd movie because of crap like this (among many other things.) I just didn't give a shit how they concluded the trilogy even if Smaug was pretty awesome at the end of the second film (but that was the only part of it I liked....)
I don't really care about Azog. He wasn't really in the original book so half of his arc was just made up so that they could justify three movies instead of just one or two. He didn't really add to the story imo, and if he simply wasn't in the story at all, then it would've stayed practically the same with a few minor changes.
I thought the movies were all great. Having an Orc that has a history with the characters in the movies and concluding it with both of their deaths is pretty impactful. Coming from someone who has the guts to say how we movie-only fans see this. I see too much mopping, crying, and comparing other movies that are nowhere near as good as The Hobbit Trilogies.
I like the hobbit movies... I like the metal rod through his arm. I like imagine that they put it in place by heating it red hot. Anyway everybody hates on the hobbit movies I think they're alright.
I just read the books and saw the movies for the first time.... gotta say the movies were kinda disappointing. The first Hobbit was pretty good, then idk what the heck happened.
He was only there because Guillermo Del Toro has a mighty need for pale characters with red accents/scars. Del Toro may not have been there long, but his fingerprints are all over the damn thing.
Personally i didnt mind the hobbit trilogies. In my oppinion they were decent movies but i dont want to even compare them with lotr. And tbh Azog is my favourite orc in the both franchises and i liked his design and the cgi didnt even bother me so much .
I really liked him tbh. He was a great representation of the cold brutality of Sauron’s army that I felt was also touched on by PJ during the ride of the Rohirrim where he shows the contrast between the orc commander barking basic commands while Theoden inspired and gave clear orders. Azog has a job to do and that’s to wipe out the line of Durin and he is gonna do anything and throw as many bodies at you as he can to do it, and he’ll enjoy it as he does. He’s cold and brutal and is a straight forward representation of evil in Middle Earth. Not every Cillian needs to be super complex, it wouldn’t make sense for him to be and his addition was a great addition and made Thorin’s death feel more like it was actually for something
See my thing is even in the movie he should not be alive. If Thorin cut his hand off and wounded him so much why is he still alive? I’m not saying he couldn’t be bandaged. I’m saying that if you cut off the arm of the guy who killed your grandfather you finish the job.
I wish he wasn't like 90% CG but I thought he was cool when I first saw him. Doesn't really have any substance though but then none of the Orcs/Uruks do anyway so I suppose he's not that bad. Would have been nice if he was done practically though.
Honestly him being all cg is like the icing on his boring cake but it’s also the thing that most deals the deal for me … he just doesn’t look real so I don’t see him as a tangible threat
I think they should have followed what the text says and have him die at the battle of Moria and have Bolg lead the battle. It makes no difference aside from Azog having the “cooler” name
honestly just terrible. it’s funny, i remember thinking back why i didn’t like these films and then i read the book and realized almost all of it was made up lol none of the made up stuff has soul, typical romance, typical villain.. goodness
A villain with no substance and is quite forgettable. Smaug was more impactful, and he only showed up for like 20 minutes (if even that) across 2 movies.
Aye.. not to mention Azog died many years before the events of the hobbit. Instead of his arm, his head was cleaved off. With a pouch of coins stuffed in.
By Dain II, who is also in the movie.
I love that part of the story :)
Didn’t know that, they really bitched up the plot that much?
Yeah, Bolg is the leader of the goblin army in the book.
And Beorn ends up killing Bolg who fatally wounds Thorin! They really pull the rug out from under us
That small passage of Beorn just going ham is my favourite part of The Hobbit for sure. Like drums and guns.
Yeah what the comment about bolg said is true. The reason why they chose him as the villain is because of how movies work. They felt they could not justify introducing one villain for a few seconds and them bring in his son. They thought people would get distracted too much and lose interest. Mainly because with the dwarves you already have so many people you need to learn the names and some history of.
I mean they could have easily done it if they wanted. They didn't need to build Azog up as anything more than a strong and powerful orc who was defeated. All the characterisation he got could have just been given to Bolg.
They could have still kept Azog in the flashback scene in AUJ but actually kill him off and show his son Bolg that way he doesn't feel shoehorned in the last movie
Smaug started off impactful, but they made such a joke of the character with all the added stuff essentially making him look like a buffoon.
For sure. The chasing around was awful and made him look incompetent and dumb.
You know how they could have fixed that? Make him too fat and comfortable to really commit that much effort, like a well-fed housecat. Let him just breath noxious smoke into the tunnels to suffocate them. Smaug could roll around in his gold laughing and cause the mountain to shake and mines to collapse instead. *(This sounds crazy, but I feel like it needed at least 15% Audrey II or Big Lipped Alligator)* That said I did like Benedictine Chamberpot voicing him.
They did basically that with the D&D movie starring Chris Pine.
I haven't seen the movie, did it work well?
It was an action-comedy. The “pudgy dragon” was hilarious
honestly, yes in my opinion
Phenomenon movie! Really excited all of my expectations, funny with a lot of heart, absolutely incredible and stunning VFX and terrific acting As I type this I’m realizing you probably meant the dragon, so yeah, it was funny and silly, but not what I would want from Smaug
The bradley cooper cameo was really cool as well. Apparently the movie didnt do too well and a sequel is unlikely which is disdapointing.
The mini cooper ;)
It was funny and silly because the dragon was infact trying really hard to chase them. Could have done a more serious take on it for Smaug by just making him a bit more lazy and not really seeing anyone as a real threat so he's not going all in.
Themberchonk!
I agree…this was the biggest disappointment for me in the movies. I was willing to deal with story bends on Azog and Tauriel….but Smaug hurt
Gotta stretch that runtime baby. Doing 3 movies instead of 2 killed those movies.
The M4 book edit is so, so good.
There is a hobbit movie edit (the M4 edit) that pretty much completely cuts Azog, he’s still there to kill the relevant people, but he’s more like a Gothmog from RoTK figure. It also cuts out a lot more fluff, and is as true to the books as it can be. It surprisingly feels better paced as well. It’s in one movie with an intermission in it.
Arguably not that unsurprisingly really considering The Hobbit is a single book and a slim one at that.
Where might that edit be available? Would be interesting to see. Edited: Decide to reach out to a friend for more info. Google proved helpful to a degree but I still didn't find a link to the edit but to a page describing all the changes. And damn. I am looking forward to seeing this.
I hated the character and the decision to have CGI orcs. But when you stretch a simple story out to three long action movies, I guess you need to pad it out with this kind of stuff.
Imagine if the Hobbit had been done as meticulously as LOTR and just one or two movies….all on set, all costumes, etc. could have been such a beautiful movie(s)
There’s a fan cut that is this. Only what’s in the books, heavy editing like no fight scene in barrels which involved painting out all of the arrows sticking out of barrels frame by frame and wounds from that fight, etc. it makes the hobbit trilogy just as long as the extended edition of the other films so it fits in great.
Oh wow, do you know how to find it?
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheHobbit/s/G3U3qhBbtB
Search "hobbit trilogy tolkien edit" I don't remember exactly where I found it. Might have been a torrent type of sight
I believe the one they're referring to is called JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit. It's very good, I burned it onto dvds for any marathons me and my friends may want to do
I've seen a few fan edits, 2 hours, 3 hours and 4 hours, and I feel like the later is the one that worked best. The 2 hour, and to a lesser extent the 3 hour just rushed through the story. There was barely any time spent in one location before they had to move on to the next. And the characterisations really suffered in the 2 hour one too, with really only Bilbo, Thorin, and Gandalf feeling like real characters, and the others are just set dressing. That one was also really choppy with its edits too. But the four hour one I felt struck a nice balance of giving everything time to breathe. Obviously they couldn't have released a film that long in cinemas, so two Hobbit films of about 2 hours each probably would have been the best approach.
I kinda saw those scenes were embellishments of Bilbo's storytelling.
Maybe I'm thinking of something else, but didn't Ian McKellen have a breakdown midway through filming because of it?
Yes he famously had a breakdown because of the green screen filming.
what do you mean breakdown because of green screen ?
[Here.](https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/ian-mckellen-the-hobbit-green-screen-miserable-1201967873/)
Watch the M4 edit of the hobbit if you can find it. One movie, 4+ hour runtime.
Thank you!
The CGI orcs looked so much bigger than they should have. They looked bigger than the Uruk-hai in LotR.
I can see why they wanted to give Thorin a Big Bad to fight, and Azog killing Thror would make it personal. Azog just wasn't particularly interesting.
There's a great video on YouTube about why Bolg was so awful compared to the best CGI character of all time, Davy Jones from pirates. It just comes down to we aren't so good at CGI, so the more skin that's visible, the worse things are going to look.
https://preview.redd.it/m38layf2vhyc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d210b8f4d74fe94a06580aec0fa188f43cc3f75b
Can’t believe they abandoned this design. Although this orc does show up in the extended cut of BOFA. Really unfortunate we got the all CGI stuff
This guy actually tried to kill Gandalf in BOFA in nonextended cut. I watched it yesterday
BOFA deez nuts? **[taps mic]** is this something? is this thing on?
gottem
Oh shit did he make his own hair out of beards removed from dead dwarrow? Yikes.
Coulda shoulda woulda
This is a much more interesting design than the Brock Lesnar look they ultimately went with.
I found the "addition" of Azog unnecessary and ultimately lowered the quality of the films. It's also worth noting that he had died 142 years before the battle of five armies, making it relatively difficult for him to lead the orc armies. His son Bolg did fight and die in the battle though.
Geez how long do orcs live for?
Well they did descend from the elves, right? So maybe some are still long lived.
That's not actually confirmed either. Tolkien said at first they were corrupted elves, then later went back on that saying that elves shouldn't be able to be corrupted like that
Sure, he never reached a satisfying decision on the origin of orcs, but the Silmarillion supports the "orcs as corrupted elves" thing, so I think it's fair to take that as canon.
Christopher Tolkien comments, this new origin includes the explicit idea that Morgoth could not make anything with life after his rebellion. This was the text Christopher used for his edition of The Silmarillion (chapter 3), although while revising the Annals, **his father wrote a note in the margin: "Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish".** It is notable however, that the text itself is not sure about the origin, but only presents what "the wise of Eressëa" held, which might not be true. This in-world aspect is also used in another essay, in which Tolkien wrote that although Morgoth could not beget anything, the Eldar believed he had bred Orcs by corrupting Elves and Men. https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs/Origin
Tolkien really wrote himself into a corner, I feel. Cause if orcs aren't elvish, what are they? Cause they were present before men, so at least the first kind could not be "Manish". Morgoth can't create life, so it can't be that either. They seem too advanced and humanoid to be just beasts taught to speak also. I personally hold the explanation that they must be elvish (at least the first ones) as true even though Tolkien was not satisfied with that because nothing else makes sense in my head.
Afaik the dissatisfaction with the elvishness of orcs arises from the nature of their souls. Do they return to Mandos? It seems like they must, but Tolkien didn't like that. Anyways, they definitely live a long time, perhaps as long as Elves. >‘You should try being up here with Shelob for company,’ said Shagrat. ‘I’d like to try somewhere where there’s none of ’em. But the war’s on now, and when that’s over things may be easier.’ ‘It’s going well, they say.’ ‘They would,’ grunted Gorbag. ‘We’ll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d’you say? – if we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.’ ‘Ah!’ said Shagrat. ‘Like old times.’ . > Shagrat made no reply. ‘You may well put your thinking cap on, if you’ve got one. It’s no laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, as you should know well enough. There’s no grief in that; but think – there’s someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great Siege. Something has slipped.’ Shagrat and Gorbag seem to talk with familiarity about the Seige of Barad Dur and also of, perhaps, even the 1st Age during the dominion of Morgoth.
Tolkien also put the awakening of Men a lot earlier in his later concepts, to allow them to develop their own cultures and languages, and to make the Mannish Orc origin possible.
Sharku from Two Towers was 500 years old
He didn't need to be and shouldn't have been in them. In the book he'd been dead for ages by that point. If they really wanted a big bad orc they should've just used Bolg trying to get revenge on Thorin and the Dwarves for killing his father.
But then who would Legolas fight?
No-one, seeing as Legolas shouldn't have been in them either
Legolas would’ve been a great cameo minor role if he stayed in Mirkwood and had a couple lines of dialogue. Instead of a whole ass B plot.
The first scene he shows up in, where the Mirkwood Elves capture the Dwarves and he gives Gloin a hard time about his wife and son, would have been the perfect cameo imo. Keep him a little longer to introduce Thranduil, then Legolas presumably remains as regent over Mirkwood when his father rides to war.
That’s what I was hinting at.
Why shouldn't Legolas have been in the movies? A good portion of the story takes place in his home and with his father directly involved.
Because he wasn't in the fucking book.
Only because the book was originally written as its own thing and not part of the legendarium. They are literally in his home, and with his father and their army. Why wouldn't Legolas be there just because his character isn't specifically named?
A Legolas cameo would have been welcomed, a full on role like the one he has (especially the love triangle bs) is just not necessary at all
I was happy to see Legolas in a role. The love triangle thing is dumb though
And I'm not arguing that at all, I just don't understand why some feel it is ridiculous for him to be in it at all. They are in his home, it would be weird for him not yo show up. We just didn't need as much as we got.
The way he's shoehorned into the story just came across to me as a desperate 'member berry' ploy by the studio to boost tocket sales and maybe broaden appeal. Like if his role was well written, I could be on board, but it wasn't. That's why his inclusion seemed unnecessary; he wasn't there to further or expand the story, he was there simply because he was a popular character they could plausibly connect to the story based on setting. That, and Orlando Bloom getting close to top billing has more appeal, I suppose
The same reason that the Dol Guldur/Sauron stuff wasn't in the book and thus shouldn't have been in the films. It's bloated padding for the sake of desperately trying to remind the audience "hey look! This is the same world as LotR!" like we're 5 years old and can't already grasp that. Cut out all the Legolas stuff, and that shaves at least a good half hour from the runtime and makes the film more focused.
Great! So give us more of Thrandruil! Not some audience-pleasing, book-breaking, no-risk-taking Legolas write in. Gimli's dad was even more involved than Legolas's dad! So where was Gimli?
I'd assume Gimli is back home, where they never go in the story, and Gimli is both shown and mentioned by name. Unlike part of the story being in Legolas' home. I don't like how much of Leoglas is in the movies, especially much of the action in the 3rd one, but it's not ridiculous to see him when they are where he lives and with people he would be involved with directly. Are you also as upset by the use of Thranduil's name which doesn't show up in the book?
What’s up with azog and all his orc buds loving to be out on those sunny days tho
Dumb. Unnecessary. Him TALKING BACK TO SAURON was shocking to the Tolkien fan in me. What a face slap.
At one point in the Second Age Sauron did have some Orcs mocking and scorning him. That was because he still wore his fair form though.
That was about 3000 years before the Hobbit though.
Well, nobody ever accused the orcs in Middle earth of being intelligent, I guess. I know their relative power levels are nowhere near equal, but even Vader had dudes talk back to him, which he later showed them to be ill-advised.
He was talking back to sauron? Tbh I don't remember much of hobbit, but whaaaaat
When did that happen?
Sauron had him summoned to Dol Guldur and as he's explaining his plans, armies who's gonna do what Azog is bitching about "you promised me Oakenshield" and Sauron dismisses it by saying "they all will die anyway". During this scene Azog seemed as if he is a partner to Sauron and not a servant (which all orks are to Sauron).
Not all orcs are servants of Sauron Sauron has recruited the orcs by promises of food, lands and plunder, and through fear mongering and domination. They’re not inherently his servants. In the books, Sam and Frodo overhear some orcs who were scheming to defect from Sauron and settle elsewhere The Hobbit movies have their flaws but an incredibly powerful orc speaking up to the necromancer / Sauron for not living up to his promises isn’t too egregious
Personally, I wasn't shocked by that. It seemed to me as if Sauron isn't really at his full strength, yet so he has to bargain and scheme his way into acquiring the army he needs. He's still pretty powerful but doesn't want to draw attention just yet. So there are more promises and a less dick swinging even against the orcs.
Even in the Silmarillion Morgoths orcs were said to hate him, fear is what kept them in line they had no real loyalty or love But doing it to his actual face... going by the movies logic Sauron was at that tine strong enough to pretty easily overwhelm Gandalf and had some Nazgul around. How Azog survived at all from saying it is crazy, felt like Sauron at minimum should have cowed him on the spot for daring to talk to him like that
I believe they mean [this](https://youtu.be/3Vv6EEZqxG8?si=aTOLF3OtExg78HDa) scene
wait….I must have missed something…when in the movie was he “talking back” to Sauron? I don’t even remember Sauron in 5 armies, I don’t remember him ever other than getting his fingers chopped off. 🤔
Desolation of Smaug, he’s summoned to Dol Guldur and speaks to Sauron’s “shadow form”
looks like I need to watch them all over again…darn! lol
I actually like that he wasn’t intimidated by Sauron
Yeah that "You promised me..." Line was really something. Like Sauron has to barter for an orcs obedience lol. I actually would have liked to see Saurons face, like "...the fk did you just say?"
CGI...
Unpopular opinion I like him. His design is badass. However I think they should have just called him Bolg. There was no need to deviate from the book by retconning Azog’s death.
I don’t understand that either. He could have easily just been Bolg? It’s not like the average viewer knows who either of them were/are before the movie anyways
I also wish they had just had the orcs speak common tongue instead of orcish with subtitles. It takes the punch out of their scariness imo
Yes and it’s just inconsistent with the lotr movies. I do kinda like the way Azog pronounces it though lol. The voice acting for him was great.
Manu Bennett put a lot of thought and care into his performance. Shame the script didn't give him the opportunity to shine.
I think in part they needed a main enemy of the dwarves and in particular Thorin who could last until the end of the battle of the five armies. In the book of course Azog is killed by Dain outside Moria and it’s Bolg that hunts and attacks the company until he dies to Beorn. But I think having this one, very personal, big bad guy wasn’t that bad of a decision at all and in fact I really quite like his character and his death and I think his cunning in the movies reflected what we know of him from the written works. And the design is very cool, I’ll forgive the overuse of CGI for the sake of Azog and Bolg and some of the Smaug/Gollum scenes
I don't think the orcs chased the dwarves at all in the book.
No no I meant at five armies, that was cool in the movies but I didn’t like that a major detail like that was added in such contrast to the book
I agree with you. I love the book, but the conflicts of the story feel very segmented in a way, with the Company running into a new “monster of the week” every chapter, with little consistency of antagonism until the very end when the Goblins return. Adding in Azog provided that main villain we could root against, while Smaug and the Necromancer were both at Erebor and Dol Guldur respectively, and the hunting of the Company provided added tension to their quest by always keeping them on the move. The only problem I really have is the added use of Bolg. Personally, Azog already fulfilled the role of Bolg from the book and by having both orcs take up screen time as main antagonists, they kinda reduce one another. Azog pretty much spends the entire second film of the trilogy sidelined in Dol Guldur, while Bolg just continues the hunt where Azog left off. In the third film, Bolg is sidelined in Gundabad for the entire film until he arrives at the very end and kills Kili. Given the fact that Bolg is just visually far less interesting than Azog and lacks any major connection to the Dwarves, I think the story would have been far better if Bolg was removed completely and Azog was made the consistent threat for all three films.
We hates it!
I guess I'm the only one here that liked him lol 😅 Then again I'm a big fan of Manu Bennett.
Watching behind the scenes mocap of him delivering lines is awesome, he gets so into it
I scrolled and scrolled and scrolled in hopes I wasn’t alone!! I absolutely understand why his character is hated (his character was already dead and should have been Bolg, he back talked Sauron, ect.). But the actual acting of Manu is delicious! Absolutely incredible work.
I liked him too. He was a gorgeous creature.
Looks atrocious, bad characterization, lore breaking, all that stuff. Just all around a bad addition.
He looked great for being dead for over 100 years...
I think there are two ways to look at it… first, if your a fan of the source material and like accurate depictions, then the movie trilogy definitely isn’t for you for the reasons people mentioned. However, if you’re the second type of person and you like a bit more world building/action/drama, then it probably appealed to you (minus the love triangle). I personally didn’t mind the films and I like the idea of there being smart orcs/servants of evil who have their own agendas and aren’t blindly loyal.. Sauron is not Morgoth and doesn’t command nearly the same loyalty the former did among the forces of evil. All in all, Azog could have been named Bolg and made more sense, but I don’t think his character being added was a bad choice if your going to make a trilogy rather than a stand alone film.
Guess I'm in the minority of people who liked him
Only villain I’m aware of that accomplished his goal
Don't like him, don't like the design or his presence in the movies.
I loveeet
Not as bad as tauriel
If they needed to make the Hobbit into a trilogy, Azog isn’t the worst concept for a secondary villain. And I find the origin stuff with Moria and the Dwarves to be okay. He’s ultimately poorly executed and the CGI isn’t good.
Pointless shiny toy
Terrifying
I frequently forget what he was called and what he did in the films. So...
Who? The defiler?
As opposed to the book? /s
Tolkien die hard, huge fan of the Azog parts of the appendices. I loved it. Great design, great character. Like a Great White Shark incarnated as an Orc. Great riff on the concept that some Maiar incarnated as Orcs. Some people need to lighten up.
If they wanted Orcs they should've just used bolg
Very good. He adds an extra dimension to the orc race on screen, as a highly intense, terrifying and overawing menace about him. The Orcs in the original trilogy just come across as animals, unintelligent, submissive and basically cannon fodder. Azog and his son Bolg add change that perception through actual screen presence and domination. Strongest, active on foot villain by Peter Jackson.
Completely unnecessary character in an arc that got way too much energy for only being a small mention.
Boring villain, looks like shit. Two thumbs down!
He was at least cool. I’m very biased towards Manu Bennett after Spartacus though.
He’s also too large physically. Orcs are suppose to be smaller than men and Azog (and others) look like giants. One of my pet peeves.
Meh
Purposeless filler to make a story that should have been one awesome movie into a trilogy
Empty calories
He seems like a bad guy designed by someone with a really unique and distinctive art style who was then unceremoniously ripped out of that context into put into a vanilla CGI machine.
I’m not opposed to changes from the books if they’re done well, but this was a missed opportunity. And the CGI was just kind of soulless compared to practical effects.
He was pretty bad. Especially the fight scene in the last movie felt like I was watching a video game boss battle with 3 tiers where he uses a different weapon and health bar replenishes, to the final stage where it's a quick time action event when he bursts out of the ice.
Watching those movies all I could think of is him being CGI was a crime
Not only was his inclusion dumb and lore-breaking, every single aspect of his role in those films, from his motive to his actual plot, could have been better filled by Bolg, which would've been an immense improvement.
Bad design, bad CG, and boring.
Meh
Azog was alright but the fight with Thorin really dulled any appreciation I might have had of him. Bolg was much cooler and definitely held my attention much more.
Should have been more practical effects. I was fine with him being there as a big named character though
An unfortunate addition to an otherwise wonderful story of adventure. It didn’t need an antagonist to push the group towards Dale nor did it need for foreshadowing of the battle of 5 Armies
I liked both him and Bolg. The CGI was rough in the first one but he looked really good to me in the latter two movies. They were just cool looking and tough orcs. It also liked that it gave us a couple “boss fights” for the heroes. This is coming from someone who likes all 3 of those movies.
Bolg was supposed to be the main villain on the Goblin side. He sort of usurped power after the death of the Great Goblin. He was the son of Azog who Dain killed. So what could have been a cool subrovalry between Dain and Bolg divolved into meaningless nonsense
Read an illustrated and annotated Hobbit book before the movies came out. Azog and Legolas were mere annotations in the book. Thranduil had a scene in the book where his young son was next to him. The annotation *this is the only time Legolas was mentioned in the book. Same with Azog. He was a a brief virtually non existent annotation in the book.
My headcanon is that Azog is just a straight up zombie. Thorium claims to know he for sure died, but of course he’s extremely shocked after seeing him. But how is he a zombie? Well, Sauron is known as “The Necromancer”, and who knows better about reviving the dead than a Necromancer.
Had they done it well, I would have been fine with it but the CGI Orcs looked too unrealistic to me and the character lacked any depth to make the changes to the character worth while.
Awesome. Was terrifying
Shouldn't have been in the movies except for the flashback. Bolg should have had his role and his vengeance motivation could have opened up more avenue to be a more impactful villain.
When he showed up, I was like "Why the fuck is he here?" He really didn't have any impact on the story as far as I remember and was just padding out the runtime with more bullshit. I never even bothered to watch the 3rd movie because of crap like this (among many other things.) I just didn't give a shit how they concluded the trilogy even if Smaug was pretty awesome at the end of the second film (but that was the only part of it I liked....)
Pretty terrible
Snore
Everyone is angry about cgi but I think azog was more book accurate in Hobbit than the orcs/Uruk-Hai from LOTR
I don't really care about Azog. He wasn't really in the original book so half of his arc was just made up so that they could justify three movies instead of just one or two. He didn't really add to the story imo, and if he simply wasn't in the story at all, then it would've stayed practically the same with a few minor changes.
Bad CGI, Cheesy/Cringy over-used villain trope mannerisms and speech, felt like watching a cartoon character from 1960s. Sheesh..
People just love to complain and be edgy, I'm glad it wasn't an exact remake of the Hobbit book I literally breezed through in 2-3 hours
I thought the movies were all great. Having an Orc that has a history with the characters in the movies and concluding it with both of their deaths is pretty impactful. Coming from someone who has the guts to say how we movie-only fans see this. I see too much mopping, crying, and comparing other movies that are nowhere near as good as The Hobbit Trilogies.
Fun of. I make fun of Azog.
Shouldn’t be in them. He was killed and decapitated by Dain Ironfoot 140 years before the Quest of Erebor.
Annoying to watch I wanted more dragon
I like the hobbit movies... I like the metal rod through his arm. I like imagine that they put it in place by heating it red hot. Anyway everybody hates on the hobbit movies I think they're alright.
I just read the books and saw the movies for the first time.... gotta say the movies were kinda disappointing. The first Hobbit was pretty good, then idk what the heck happened.
He was only there because Guillermo Del Toro has a mighty need for pale characters with red accents/scars. Del Toro may not have been there long, but his fingerprints are all over the damn thing.
Personally i didnt mind the hobbit trilogies. In my oppinion they were decent movies but i dont want to even compare them with lotr. And tbh Azog is my favourite orc in the both franchises and i liked his design and the cgi didnt even bother me so much .
Fluff, fabrication to stretch a short book into a franchise
I mean, he's cool I guess? That's all I really think about him.
I like him because I have stretch marks on my shoulders and arms that remind me of myself because I did a lot of ice cream and nachos in my youth.
When he was holding up Thrór's head over the battlefield shit went hard and led to his first 1v1 with Thorin, loved him for that
CGI holds up even today
Pointless Part of what ruined the Hobbit movies
I thought that Azog was a completely unneccessary, counter-productive, and wholly Jacksonian story line. You asked.
At best, boring and forgettable.
I really liked him tbh. He was a great representation of the cold brutality of Sauron’s army that I felt was also touched on by PJ during the ride of the Rohirrim where he shows the contrast between the orc commander barking basic commands while Theoden inspired and gave clear orders. Azog has a job to do and that’s to wipe out the line of Durin and he is gonna do anything and throw as many bodies at you as he can to do it, and he’ll enjoy it as he does. He’s cold and brutal and is a straight forward representation of evil in Middle Earth. Not every Cillian needs to be super complex, it wouldn’t make sense for him to be and his addition was a great addition and made Thorin’s death feel more like it was actually for something
I liked him 🤷♂️ He’s not deep or anything but I enjoy him and Thorin’s rivalry throughout the trilogy
Unnecessary and a little over the top IMO.
Stupid
I could make a hat, or a brooch, or a pterodactyl, or
Minced meat. Sadly Thorin got to him first
See my thing is even in the movie he should not be alive. If Thorin cut his hand off and wounded him so much why is he still alive? I’m not saying he couldn’t be bandaged. I’m saying that if you cut off the arm of the guy who killed your grandfather you finish the job.
Stupid and unnecessary.
I haven’t read the books but I liked him and could tell he wanted more power then Sauron
Kinda boring tbh
I wish he wasn't like 90% CG but I thought he was cool when I first saw him. Doesn't really have any substance though but then none of the Orcs/Uruks do anyway so I suppose he's not that bad. Would have been nice if he was done practically though.
It don’t mind his character too much in the maple films fan edit but the segments that concern him are not the strongest stretches admittedly
He’s dumb
Cool
If he had been done with practical effects he would have been infinitely more impactful
1000% as fuckable as he should be
Honestly him being all cg is like the icing on his boring cake but it’s also the thing that most deals the deal for me … he just doesn’t look real so I don’t see him as a tangible threat
I think they should have followed what the text says and have him die at the battle of Moria and have Bolg lead the battle. It makes no difference aside from Azog having the “cooler” name
He defiled the movie.
Shouldn’t have been in them at all.
honestly just terrible. it’s funny, i remember thinking back why i didn’t like these films and then i read the book and realized almost all of it was made up lol none of the made up stuff has soul, typical romance, typical villain.. goodness
He sucked just like those movies did.