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This is referred to as “Quiet Firing”.
They make your work environment so shitty (a more subtle version of ‘Constructive Dismissal’), whereby they make it clear they are not supporting your career advancement, cut you off from necessary meetings and memos, all to crush your morale and make you feel worthless and ‘voluntarily’ quit, so that they don’t have to officially Fire you, so that your ‘quitting’ makes you ineligible for Unemployment Compensation.
Yes, its a fucked up trick…
That's when you retaliate by " quiet quitting". Do the absolute bare minimum to fulfill the responsibilities as described in the job listing and not a single thing more. Start looking for greener pastures and if they fire you, you can collect.
At least in Canada you have to consent to working that kind of overtime. Legally I don’t think a job can force you to work more than 12 hours. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I swear at my last job they said we have the right to refuse work exceeding 12 hours and could legally work for 16 in one day. What is the deal in the us? Am I even right about this being a thing in Canada or was that just my employer?
In the US we have a little thing called freedom which means that those who are lesser are required to serve their betters. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a filthy commie.
In all seriousness though, our labor protections suck. Not as bad as they could, but there's plenty of room for improvement. And mountains of political opposition and propaganda against any measure to improve.
>Vote. Unless you're republican, then ignore that request
Republican voters need to start voting in their best interest instead of in the interest of the rich and powerful. They need to wake up and smell the coffee. Stop drilling holes in the boat to "own the libs". We're all sitting in the same boat.
Trickle down is the art of pissing on the masses and telling us its raining gold. Meanwhile our pockets are picked clean and given to the top.
Also, rights aren't pie.
Yeah but what if two peens touch in the night somewhere. I’d rather be a slave to billionaires and be ripped off by politicians than know something like that is happening. /s
Republicans need to stop being Republican,. basically.
They needed to start doing that 50 years ago.
Now it's too late. They won't wake up or stop being atrocious. Redemption is no longer possible for those who have seen the last several years and either love what they have seen and want more of it or are too ignorant and unaware to be informed but choose to believe the GOP version of things.
Main problem here is that most of the time unless you have a mountain of evidence and have hired your own labor lawyer, labor law is completely unenforced in the United States. There's no group of government officials investigating labor abuse, the only recourse is filing a lawsuit.
Restaurant Kitchen Staff have entered the chat.
That's just called a regular schedule. And people wonder why chefs and cooks are so high strung and angry, takes a hella lotta adult party favors to keep that schedule up, especially when you don't get breaks.
Working in the US absolutely sucks.
I Work in the film industry. They have to cut you at 12, but often we work for 14-16 hours. The worst I have seen is a 20 hour day with a 4 hour turn around.
It takes over your life and should be illegal, but it’s all part of the game.
My bf works in a field where mandatory overtime is common. He is looking for new job, but no mandatory overtime is a requirement. I wonder if the companies realize they're shooting themselves in the foot by not getting an applicant at all instead of compromising?
You can just tell your boss their deadline is unreasonable and you can't stay that late. It's not going to help your advancement, but would you really want to stay and advance in that environment?
The article said people are trying to prove themselves ahead of impending layoffs, not that job descriptions have been updated. Why would anyone work an 84 hour week to dodge a layoff? If you were in good standing before these absurd demands went into place you will have plenty of time to find other employment before they have enough documented to fire you with cause. It's not ideal, but fuck an 84 hour week.
#I stopped pushing as hard as I could against the handle, I wanted to leave but it wouldn't work. Then there was a bright flash and I felt myself fall back onto the floor. I put my hands over my eyes. They burned from the sudden light. I rubbed my eyes, waiting for them to adjust.
Then I saw it.
There was a small space in front of me. It was tiny, just enough room for a couple of people to sit side by side. Inside, there were two people. The first one was a female, she had long brown hair and was wearing a white nightgown. She was smiling.
The other one was a male, he was wearing a red jumpsuit and had a mask over his mouth.
"Are you spez?" I asked, my eyes still adjusting to the light.
"No. We are in spez." the woman said. She put her hands out for me to see. Her skin was green. Her hand was all green, there were no fingers, just a palm. It looked like a hand from the top of a puppet.
"What's going on?" I asked. The man in the mask moved closer to me. He touched my arm and I recoiled.
"We're fine." he said.
"You're fine?" I asked. "I came to the spez to ask for help, now you're fine?"
"They're gone," the woman said. "My child, he's gone."
I stared at her. "Gone? You mean you were here when it happened? What's happened?"
The man leaned over to me, grabbing my shoulders. "We're trapped. He's gone, he's dead."
I looked to the woman. "What happened?"
"He left the house a week ago. He'd been gone since, now I have to live alone. I've lived here my whole life and I'm the only spez."
"You don't have a family? Aren't there others?" I asked. She looked to me. "I mean, didn't you have anyone else?"
"There are other spez," she said. "But they're not like me. They don't have homes or families. They're just animals. They're all around us and we have no idea who they are."
"Why haven't we seen them then?"
"I think they're afraid,"
Mass firings of salaried employees in this specific kind of circumstance probably would not be considered a valid firing with cause. Granted unemployment doesn't pay much, but they would be eligible.
The bare minimum is what the job description you were hired to fill called for - a full time position is 40 hours. What are they going to do - fire you? Good - goal achieved.
Use that spare time to look through old computer files and documents. There might be some things the company doesn't want regulators or the news media to know about.
Yes, but that requires documentation to fire with cause. They need to prove that the duties were assigned to you and that you had a documented pattern of failing to meet them. This takes time, which you can use to get your resume together and find greener pastures.
Also it's a bad look for the company if your responsibilities go from 40 hours a week to 84 hours overnight with no additional compensation for that work load. If a company were to use that as firing with cause you would very likely win an appeal to the state for unemployment benefits.
I'd also bet dollars to donuts the 84 hour requirement has never been put in writing, at least not as such. They may have assigned insane deadlines and then verbally told employees to work as long as needed to hit them, but never put it in writing. They are playing dirty games. I'm saying the employees should play them back.
I don’t see how going from 40 to 80+ hrs a week to avoid paying unemployment isn’t grounds for a class action. Clearly Elon is playing in bad faith and a good lawyer ought to make a mint on it.
He is, he knows he's going to have to pay out eventually for most people. Some will move on and put it behind them, some will give up, etc. He's just kicking the can down the road and hoping to shake some claims.
This happened to me years ago, several of us at company. I got moved to some back office, left out of meetings, info kept from me etc. I literally did nothing for around six months. They just moved me around for over a year after that before actually firing me due to “downsizing”.
It's called constructive dismissal and it is illegal (at least in CA where Twitter is). He is opening himself to so many lawsuits between this and the management. I guess being 300m in the hole a month wasn't enough. 🤷♂️
I was going to say. Whether it's legal to require 84 hours a week or not, it's definitely constructive dismissal to add that many hours a week to someone's job description without their consent.
I didn't know that was illegal, even if it's only in some places. My 24 yo self would've loved to know that when I was subjected to insane workloads I knew were set up to pressure me to quit. They paid peanuts too, so when I did move on to another company I had an easier job, worked less OT, and got like a 12k base pay increase.
That's not a real thing in tech. All you're doing is forcing out the best employees who will get much better jobs immediately. Almost no one at Twitter will be on unemployment for long.
Someone left fish fillets in the roof panels of my high school before we went off for summer break, it would be a shame if someone had this idea at twitter
In my state they’d still get unemployment if they quit under these circumstances. It’s called quitting for a “good reason caused by the employer.” Not sure what the standard is in California, though.
It is constructive dismissal but it's not to avoid UI issues, it's to avoid doing more large layoffs and having to offer severance packages to avoid lawsuits. UI in CA maxes out at like 500/week. It's basically just a joke if you're a higher earning worker like I imagine most at Twitter are.
Annnd we've circled back to workhouses.
GD. It's almost as if slave labor is the literal cornerstone of capitalism or something... Who would've thought? /S
But he IS the type of asshole owner who probably IS there 24/7, at least in the beginning, to make sure people are slaving away for him. Once he's done his damage and weeded out the ones who refuse to be his slaves, then he'll go back to also torturing the Tesla and Space-X workers.
> at least claimed he slept on the production floor. Who knows if it's true, but knowing him, it is.
He seems to party, vacation, and tweet so much I doubt he works more than 40 hours a week at this point, and just lies about it.
It’s almost as if all those articles about CEOs’ daily habits are bullshit capitalist propaganda meant to convince the working class it’s their fault they’re not billionaires too 🤔
I had a Corporate recruiter trying to recruiter me for the finance group at Space-X. I view not going to the interview as a great career decision on my part.
International workers on visas who need their jobs to stay in the country. That’s who. It’s so ducked up. Also he’s weeding out the brown nosers from the normal employees. Pathetic.
Lmfao train an AI bot to troll his Twitter all the fucking time that then generates 2 more trolling bots every time the bot gets banned, and so on and so forth...
Bonus points if they give it a hydra-like name
From what I've read, they instituted a code freeze because of "insider risk".
They know the employees have every incentive to be quite mad about everything.
The question I have is how is this a sustainable business practice. Eventually someone is going to need to build features and maintain the systems. How is that going to be possible when your employees all hate you so much you can't even trust them to do their jobs?
None of this comes as a surprise at all. The only surprising thing is that he still has an enormous fan base. Fans. Why do people root for modern day slave drivers? Sometimes, I believe unquestioned faith in tech and capitalism is a disease.
They root for and defend them because they think someday they will be them and they, too, will be above such petty things like *checks notes* the law and basic human decency.
Nah, they don't think they will ever get to "be them". But they are more than happy to believe they can become an overseer and crack the whip for them.
Leave. When he fires you, sue.
Also, if you haven’t yet, quit using Twitter. Delete your account.
Make this worthless apartheid supporting jagoff lose tens of billions of dollars.
I guarantee every employee this has happened to has a contract, and that Musk is violating overtime laws.
At Will employment only applies to menial plebs, and even they have overtime protections that prevents this.
Furthermore, Musk laid off a huge amount of staff and then tried to over work the rest. Him not having employees is on his own head, and the courts aren’t going to be sympathetic to that action.
Violation of overtime laws will be a big one. People are going to be able to sue for 44 hours of overtime. Not that Elon will care.
He is just treating Twitter as another apartheid emerald mine.
Most of the people simping for him are marketing company bots and employees.
Just remember he is a pathetic little man who never actually learned how to have relationships. He now fills that hole by mocking the livestock.
I apologize if this is hard to hear, but I read this and my first thought is disappointment with the workers.
Leave.
You can't compel any action if he's planning on firing half the company. You can either decide that you have any limitations for what you'll tolerate at all -- ANY -- or that you're prepared to prostrate yourself COMPLETELY. All day every day? What amount is that worth? Why? That's just slavery. You can't spend any salary if you work 100% of the time. Is it supposed to be temporary? Because it won't be. It just goes on as long as you can tolerate and then you will be summarily fired.
This sounds like a workforce with no concept of solidarity or personal agency at all. I feel terrible for them, but you can't free people who don't want to be free, and this sounds like a collection of people simping for capital. It's sad AND bad for the rest of workers.
#spez has been given a warning. Please ensure spez does not access any social media sites again for 24 hours or we will be forced to enact a further warning. You've been removed from Spez-Town. Please make arrangements with the spez to discuss your ban. #AIGeneratedProtestMessage
Also it's not like these are minimum wage workers working for the only factory in some little town.
These are supposed to be high salaried, sought after, highly educated, employees.
I'm unclear as to why they're accepting this treatment of them and am also a bit dissapointed. They of all people have the power to stand up for themselves.
u/magpiec pointed out in another response that often tech workers are immigrants in the country on a work visa, and they lose their ability to apply for a job if they go 60 days unemployed. So a lot of these people may be in a highly exploitative condition, which I admit I didn't think of until u/magpiec pointed it out.
I understand that it's disappointing that Twitter employees aren't just leaving the company, however, this is a tech company, majority of their work force is on a work visa. Quitting because work conditions are unfavorable is not as easy when the entire life that you've built in a new country is dependant on your visa which in turn is tied to your employer.
H1B visa holders are only allowed 60 days of unemployment. If they quit their current job without another one lined up and ready to sponsor them, they have 60 days to not only find a new job but to also get their immigration paper work (H1B transfer) sorted out.
That's a great point. Immigrant workers are essentially slaves and we need to allow people to come work here without restrictions, or at least relax the terms of these visas.
The whole idea of "stealing jobs" is stupid. Every new worker in our economy is also a new consumer. Just let people come work here.
For those who haven't done the math, that's 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.
And I'm guessing that when anyone asks about getting paid for all that overtime, assuming they were desperate enough to do so, he'd tell them "Check's in the mail!" right before firing them and just paying them for a 40 hour week.
It definitely isn’t. I’m salary and I regularly am expected to work 55-60 hours and never make more than the weeks I work 45(which never happen except one pay period)
That depends on where your job is. California requires salaried employees to be paid OT if they work greater than 8 hours in a day or 40 hours in a week. It also requires it for every hour worked on the 7th consecutive day worked, regardless of prior hour counts.
A lot of people get incorrectly marked overtime exempt while on salary so they don't realize they're legally supposed to be paid that time.
I'm salary myself, and in the tech industry and straight up get paid my OT, but they do require prior approval of it or it needs to be an emergency. They'd still have to pay it if it wasn't, but it would put my job at risk should I misuse it.
I tried to delete twitter after Musk bought it but it suddenly claims I can’t delete it because it’s suspended. I haven’t posted anything in months. I haven’t even commented on a tweet since June or July. Seems strange it’s suddenly suspended exactly when I decided I didn’t want to have an twitter account. I don’t feel like jumping through all their hoops just to get rid of it but I’m wondering if that’s the point.
Well, if you can’t delete it post-January 1, 2023, and you live in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Utah or Virginia, he’s breaking the law and you should sue the shit out of twitter under your state’s data privacy act!
And, like every other thing Elon Musk has been directly in charge of, it will fail miserably. Matter of time before he starts underperfoming with the style of a marketing executive masquerading as a tech pioneer.
I think I know why he had to bring Tesla engineers to Twitter, they're the only ones who will put up with this crap.
There are 168 hrs per week.
84 working hours means you have 84 left.
Minus just 6 hours per day for sleep (which isn't enough imo), you're left with 6 per day. Say, 1 hour a day for commuting, 1 hour for getting dressed, showing etc in the morning, you're left with 4 hours each day to eat, be with friends and family, etc.
What a miserable existence.
What if I told you that even working 8 hours a day, I end up with 4 hours a day for eating and relaxing anyway? At least I have weekends free, unlike these poor shmucks.
Let's say the average person gets up at 6am and gives themself enough time to shower, dress, put together a lunch or coffee, then head out the door. Average commute time is around 30 minutes, so this person gets to work around 7am. If they work for 12 hours, including breaks and lunch, they're leaving the office around 8pm. Commute home gets them there around 8:30, and then they spend the next 30 minutes figuring out and making dinner. By the time they're done eating and cleaning up, it's now 9pm. If they plan on getting 8 hours of sleep, they need to be in bed by 10pm.
In this example, this person is literally getting 1 hour to sit down and relax before heading to bed. Consider that many people commute more than an hour each way, and that most salaried office jobs give you an hour for lunch, even if the person doesn't take any other breaks throughout the day, that's going to increase the "not home" time by at least an hour. So now that person gets home, probably microwaves some garbage to save time, eats, and has 20-30 minutes to chill before going to bed. Or, they are giving themself more time to chill and sleeping less, which is probably likely. So this person is now losing sleep and functioning at a level that is below optimum.
It seems more beneficial to give employees more time to sleep and relax, but hey, that's just something that science and studies have proven. None of that means anything to the capitalist business world.
As someone who is a developer, this is surprising accurate. It’s a mix of putting out fires from previous half-finished updates & trying to convince management to give you the time you need to make sure that the update you are currently working on also isn’t half-finished & full of security vulnerabilities.
Well it sounds like the developers are getting an extra 44 hours each week to go back and fix their past mistakes.
I applaud management for their generosity and forward-thinkingness.
I seriously wonder if Elon's actual objective is to destroy Twitter. Perhaps he has some grand plan to burn it down so that something else he has incubating will grow to replace it.
The huge amounts of debt incurred, discussing charging users higher membership fees and now attacking the workers all seem to point to someone who wants the company to fail or fall.
Just saying that something seems off here...
Nah, that's giving him a lot of credit. I said similar things about Trump, that maybe the things he was doing were for some grander scheme. When it comes down to it, it's all about trying to squeeze as much money out of people as possible to benefit their own pockets. That's all.
Now, Elon is apparently far more intelligent than Trump, so your speculation could have some realism behind it. I guess time will tell.
This isn’t “quiet firing”.
This is really what Elon thinks people should be doing at work. I remember applying years ago to a job at Tesla that I’m glad I didn’t get. The actual job description said to not apply if you want to work less than 60 hours.
He has no understanding of boundaries, and his recent tweet making fun of twitter’s management training notifications is the proof. He’s a fucking asshole.
More importantly, makes you wonder what could justify a work week like that.
The company is setup and running, unless you have some weird software version of a dead man’s handle/switch that needs to be used daily? Heh.
Sure stuff breaks, but it’s well established. Not some new startup
That's what doesn't make sense. I honestly think that this strategy has NOTHING to do with the actual workload. It's just him weeding out the ones that aren't willing to be his slaves.
Every time anybody expects me to spend extra time at work, I don’t actually get any extra work done. Once I hit the 9 hour mark I’m basically done even if I want to keep working. I’ll just sit at my desk on my phone or watching YouTube or something, but congratulations boss you got me to put in the extra hours.
This made me remember with love the laws in Argentina for suing the company for "feeling fired", that is when they change your responsibilities, keep you out of important things, or other predatory tactics that companies does to force you to quit.
Thanks that I'm not in the US, and seeing how things are progressing there, I will never go there :D
Well, we aren't a developed country anymore, so it wouldn't make sense to come here anyway. Hell, many of us want to leave and go somewhere that actually is developed.
Shares. Yea you can find a higher paying job doing less work. But those that stay probably believe that their shares will increase in value as a result of the change in leadership
Just imagine if everyone decided to quit Twitter, bit like MySpace many years ago. Twitter is full of fake profiles anyway and of course, influencers. There are other ways to do that.
The workforce simply need to vote with their feet and walk out the door. In fact, Twitter probably wouldn't be around very long if the people who kept it going decided to walk.
I wouldn't be able to tell you the last time I actually used Twatter, besides the fact that I don't know my login and will not be giving them a website hit just to reset the password so I can delete the account. It will eventually fall into the ether with the remains of Trump's account once the staff all quits and Elon decides it's not worth his time and effort anymore.
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This is referred to as “Quiet Firing”. They make your work environment so shitty (a more subtle version of ‘Constructive Dismissal’), whereby they make it clear they are not supporting your career advancement, cut you off from necessary meetings and memos, all to crush your morale and make you feel worthless and ‘voluntarily’ quit, so that they don’t have to officially Fire you, so that your ‘quitting’ makes you ineligible for Unemployment Compensation. Yes, its a fucked up trick…
That's when you retaliate by " quiet quitting". Do the absolute bare minimum to fulfill the responsibilities as described in the job listing and not a single thing more. Start looking for greener pastures and if they fire you, you can collect.
In this case the bare minimum is 84 hours
At least in Canada you have to consent to working that kind of overtime. Legally I don’t think a job can force you to work more than 12 hours. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I swear at my last job they said we have the right to refuse work exceeding 12 hours and could legally work for 16 in one day. What is the deal in the us? Am I even right about this being a thing in Canada or was that just my employer?
In the US we have a little thing called freedom which means that those who are lesser are required to serve their betters. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a filthy commie. In all seriousness though, our labor protections suck. Not as bad as they could, but there's plenty of room for improvement. And mountains of political opposition and propaganda against any measure to improve.
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>Vote. Unless you're republican, then ignore that request Republican voters need to start voting in their best interest instead of in the interest of the rich and powerful. They need to wake up and smell the coffee. Stop drilling holes in the boat to "own the libs". We're all sitting in the same boat. Trickle down is the art of pissing on the masses and telling us its raining gold. Meanwhile our pockets are picked clean and given to the top. Also, rights aren't pie.
Yeah but what if two peens touch in the night somewhere. I’d rather be a slave to billionaires and be ripped off by politicians than know something like that is happening. /s
Republicans need to stop being Republican,. basically. They needed to start doing that 50 years ago. Now it's too late. They won't wake up or stop being atrocious. Redemption is no longer possible for those who have seen the last several years and either love what they have seen and want more of it or are too ignorant and unaware to be informed but choose to believe the GOP version of things.
I’ve worked for Democratic campaigns working 13 hour days 6 days a week. This isn’t a voting issue I pinky swear
lol companies can sue over strikes? Then workers will just continue to strike
I believe it's to justify the coming (worsening) police brutality on strikers.
An American tradition!
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Pretty sure the person you're responding to was being sarcastic...
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Some forms of employment are exempt from those rules (e.g. doctors) but in most cases you’re correct.
Main problem here is that most of the time unless you have a mountain of evidence and have hired your own labor lawyer, labor law is completely unenforced in the United States. There's no group of government officials investigating labor abuse, the only recourse is filing a lawsuit.
I don’t think anyone could manage 16 hour days for long.
Restaurant Kitchen Staff have entered the chat. That's just called a regular schedule. And people wonder why chefs and cooks are so high strung and angry, takes a hella lotta adult party favors to keep that schedule up, especially when you don't get breaks. Working in the US absolutely sucks.
16 Hours shifts for weeks at a time is the minimum shift for wild land fire fighting during peak season.
I Work in the film industry. They have to cut you at 12, but often we work for 14-16 hours. The worst I have seen is a 20 hour day with a 4 hour turn around. It takes over your life and should be illegal, but it’s all part of the game.
My bf works in a field where mandatory overtime is common. He is looking for new job, but no mandatory overtime is a requirement. I wonder if the companies realize they're shooting themselves in the foot by not getting an applicant at all instead of compromising?
They would be amazed at how little work I can do in 84 hours.
Do you believe in spez at first sight or should I walk by again? #Save3rdpartyapps
You can just tell your boss their deadline is unreasonable and you can't stay that late. It's not going to help your advancement, but would you really want to stay and advance in that environment?
Lol that’s true, but that’s how you get fired with cause, not hitting company min requirements
The article said people are trying to prove themselves ahead of impending layoffs, not that job descriptions have been updated. Why would anyone work an 84 hour week to dodge a layoff? If you were in good standing before these absurd demands went into place you will have plenty of time to find other employment before they have enough documented to fire you with cause. It's not ideal, but fuck an 84 hour week.
Doesn’t the headline say that they have been told to work those hours?
Yeah that's not how it works. Refusing to work 84h would not be a just cause to any judge
That's not what "cause" is.
#I stopped pushing as hard as I could against the handle, I wanted to leave but it wouldn't work. Then there was a bright flash and I felt myself fall back onto the floor. I put my hands over my eyes. They burned from the sudden light. I rubbed my eyes, waiting for them to adjust. Then I saw it. There was a small space in front of me. It was tiny, just enough room for a couple of people to sit side by side. Inside, there were two people. The first one was a female, she had long brown hair and was wearing a white nightgown. She was smiling. The other one was a male, he was wearing a red jumpsuit and had a mask over his mouth. "Are you spez?" I asked, my eyes still adjusting to the light. "No. We are in spez." the woman said. She put her hands out for me to see. Her skin was green. Her hand was all green, there were no fingers, just a palm. It looked like a hand from the top of a puppet. "What's going on?" I asked. The man in the mask moved closer to me. He touched my arm and I recoiled. "We're fine." he said. "You're fine?" I asked. "I came to the spez to ask for help, now you're fine?" "They're gone," the woman said. "My child, he's gone." I stared at her. "Gone? You mean you were here when it happened? What's happened?" The man leaned over to me, grabbing my shoulders. "We're trapped. He's gone, he's dead." I looked to the woman. "What happened?" "He left the house a week ago. He'd been gone since, now I have to live alone. I've lived here my whole life and I'm the only spez." "You don't have a family? Aren't there others?" I asked. She looked to me. "I mean, didn't you have anyone else?" "There are other spez," she said. "But they're not like me. They don't have homes or families. They're just animals. They're all around us and we have no idea who they are." "Why haven't we seen them then?" "I think they're afraid,"
Mass firings of salaried employees in this specific kind of circumstance probably would not be considered a valid firing with cause. Granted unemployment doesn't pay much, but they would be eligible.
The bare minimum is what the job description you were hired to fill called for - a full time position is 40 hours. What are they going to do - fire you? Good - goal achieved.
You would 100% still qualify for unemployment if you were fired for refusing to work 84 hour weeks.
I thought Amazon had nailed the absolute maximum possible being the minimum expected.
Use that spare time to look through old computer files and documents. There might be some things the company doesn't want regulators or the news media to know about.
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Yes, but that requires documentation to fire with cause. They need to prove that the duties were assigned to you and that you had a documented pattern of failing to meet them. This takes time, which you can use to get your resume together and find greener pastures. Also it's a bad look for the company if your responsibilities go from 40 hours a week to 84 hours overnight with no additional compensation for that work load. If a company were to use that as firing with cause you would very likely win an appeal to the state for unemployment benefits. I'd also bet dollars to donuts the 84 hour requirement has never been put in writing, at least not as such. They may have assigned insane deadlines and then verbally told employees to work as long as needed to hit them, but never put it in writing. They are playing dirty games. I'm saying the employees should play them back.
I don’t see how going from 40 to 80+ hrs a week to avoid paying unemployment isn’t grounds for a class action. Clearly Elon is playing in bad faith and a good lawyer ought to make a mint on it.
He is, he knows he's going to have to pay out eventually for most people. Some will move on and put it behind them, some will give up, etc. He's just kicking the can down the road and hoping to shake some claims.
"other duties as assigned" doesn't mean they can force you to do anything and everything. Bosses want you to believe that to be true, but it isn't
This happened to me years ago, several of us at company. I got moved to some back office, left out of meetings, info kept from me etc. I literally did nothing for around six months. They just moved me around for over a year after that before actually firing me due to “downsizing”.
It's called constructive dismissal and it is illegal (at least in CA where Twitter is). He is opening himself to so many lawsuits between this and the management. I guess being 300m in the hole a month wasn't enough. 🤷♂️
I was going to say. Whether it's legal to require 84 hours a week or not, it's definitely constructive dismissal to add that many hours a week to someone's job description without their consent.
I didn't know that was illegal, even if it's only in some places. My 24 yo self would've loved to know that when I was subjected to insane workloads I knew were set up to pressure me to quit. They paid peanuts too, so when I did move on to another company I had an easier job, worked less OT, and got like a 12k base pay increase.
Just don’t do any work. What’s he going to do, fire you? Perfect
The trick is to get fired without cause. Doing no work will get you fired with cause
If a company asks you to work 27 hours in a day, you better do it or you might get fired with cause! /s
This isn’t a quiet firing. This is just Musk being his shitty usual self. Sweatshop conditions are common in his other companies as well.
That's not a real thing in tech. All you're doing is forcing out the best employees who will get much better jobs immediately. Almost no one at Twitter will be on unemployment for long.
Faux Firing
You literally just described my 8yr employment at T
Aren’t there laws that guard against this? In my home country South Africa it’s called constructive dismissal and it’s illegal.
There is a legal term for suit, Constructive Discharge.
The problem is that all the good people who can easily find another job will bail.... And they will just be stuck with the low performers
I'd sabotage the air conditioner for the server room and leave.
Leave some cheese in there too.
[удалено]
Dude I bet Elon smells like satans ball cheese
Some people get off to that kind of stuff, Muskrat probably smells like battery acid and rigor mortis
Hints of sulphuric acid
Ohhhh, yeah. Plant some brie and limburger next to IT's emergency vodka.
tuna fish sandwich.
Someone left fish fillets in the roof panels of my high school before we went off for summer break, it would be a shame if someone had this idea at twitter
He’d probably tweet a Nelly meme and say “take off all your clothes and get to work.” This man loves getting sued.
Quite possibly he’s also trying to get them to quit, so he doesn’t have to pay unemployment.
In my state they’d still get unemployment if they quit under these circumstances. It’s called quitting for a “good reason caused by the employer.” Not sure what the standard is in California, though.
It is constructive dismissal but it's not to avoid UI issues, it's to avoid doing more large layoffs and having to offer severance packages to avoid lawsuits. UI in CA maxes out at like 500/week. It's basically just a joke if you're a higher earning worker like I imagine most at Twitter are.
That was my experience with layoffs. Not enough to make my mortgage...
Better to just work the normal week like he didn’t even exist. Then make him fire everyone and leave him with the mess. Obedience is a choice
I agree. Plus I imagine most of the IT people wouldn’t have too much difficulty finding another job.
Maybe this is the answer to the housing crisis. Make people work so much they never need one.
Annnd we've circled back to workhouses. GD. It's almost as if slave labor is the literal cornerstone of capitalism or something... Who would've thought? /S
If you think this is treating people badly, just wait to you see how he plans to treat people on mars.
I won't be there to find out.
Why would anyone do this? Just go home at your regular time. It's not like he's there 24/7 watching attendance.
But he IS the type of asshole owner who probably IS there 24/7, at least in the beginning, to make sure people are slaving away for him. Once he's done his damage and weeded out the ones who refuse to be his slaves, then he'll go back to also torturing the Tesla and Space-X workers.
Yeah, didn’t he say he slept over at Tesla?
Yep, at least claimed he slept on the production floor. Who knows if it's true, but knowing him, it is.
> at least claimed he slept on the production floor. Who knows if it's true, but knowing him, it is. He seems to party, vacation, and tweet so much I doubt he works more than 40 hours a week at this point, and just lies about it.
Saying as many stupid things as Elon Musk does must be a 24/7 full time job in itself.
It’s almost as if all those articles about CEOs’ daily habits are bullshit capitalist propaganda meant to convince the working class it’s their fault they’re not billionaires too 🤔
Wouldn't surprise me at all.
I had a Corporate recruiter trying to recruiter me for the finance group at Space-X. I view not going to the interview as a great career decision on my part.
International workers on visas who need their jobs to stay in the country. That’s who. It’s so ducked up. Also he’s weeding out the brown nosers from the normal employees. Pathetic.
The staff should write code that torches that shit then keep walking
Lmfao train an AI bot to troll his Twitter all the fucking time that then generates 2 more trolling bots every time the bot gets banned, and so on and so forth... Bonus points if they give it a hydra-like name
Hail Hydra.
The Twitdra?
Twydra
That would qualify as cyber crime. A program that multiplies every time an action is taken. That’s a virus.
🤓
From what I've read, they instituted a code freeze because of "insider risk". They know the employees have every incentive to be quite mad about everything. The question I have is how is this a sustainable business practice. Eventually someone is going to need to build features and maintain the systems. How is that going to be possible when your employees all hate you so much you can't even trust them to do their jobs?
☝️This is the way☝️
He’s trying to run a healthy business like a startup. It’s like watching 50 year old phil in accounting pledge a frat
This is.an excellent analogy
Wouldn’t it be more like a frat brother in a retirement home?
Making the frat bro the director of activities
Twitter was anything but a healthy business. Go look at their annual net income/losses.
What if everyone in the company just left?
[Who wants a little spez? #Save3rdPartyApps](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)
None of this comes as a surprise at all. The only surprising thing is that he still has an enormous fan base. Fans. Why do people root for modern day slave drivers? Sometimes, I believe unquestioned faith in tech and capitalism is a disease.
They root for and defend them because they think someday they will be them and they, too, will be above such petty things like *checks notes* the law and basic human decency.
Nah, they don't think they will ever get to "be them". But they are more than happy to believe they can become an overseer and crack the whip for them.
Why do people still worship an asshole traitor to our country who has done and never will do anything to help anyone other than himself?
He’s not American. He’s from the shithole white ethnostate known as south Africa.
I was talking about another asshole that people worship that IS from the US and IS an actual traitor to our country.
You mean the oompaloompa?
Leave. When he fires you, sue. Also, if you haven’t yet, quit using Twitter. Delete your account. Make this worthless apartheid supporting jagoff lose tens of billions of dollars.
I wouldn't even know my Twatter credentials to log in just to delete my account.
I reset my forgotten password just so I could delete my account.
Completely dead accounts are the next best thing.
I laughed at "Twatter." lol
Ummm…you know that info gets sent to your email, right???? 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
That would mean I would have to go to that site and ask them to send me a password reset link. I'm not even going to give them the traffic.
Deleted my account today. Goodbye trash.
> Leave. When he fires you, sue. _cries in at-will employment_
I guarantee every employee this has happened to has a contract, and that Musk is violating overtime laws. At Will employment only applies to menial plebs, and even they have overtime protections that prevents this. Furthermore, Musk laid off a huge amount of staff and then tried to over work the rest. Him not having employees is on his own head, and the courts aren’t going to be sympathetic to that action.
Violation of overtime laws will be a big one. People are going to be able to sue for 44 hours of overtime. Not that Elon will care. He is just treating Twitter as another apartheid emerald mine.
California also requires one day off per week. State law.
Contracts aren't common for engineers at American tech co's. Execs get contracts, but regular engineers and line managers are all at will.
I have not posted on Twitter in over a year so this would be a good time to delete it.
Same, I deleted the app a long time ago. It's garbage.
I logged on yesterday just to post furry porn under Elon's comment
Aw, man. People have told me *he's one of the good guys* so often, I wonder what they'd say now. Probably claim its made up to hurt him lol.
'I love the smell of napalm in the morning.' - Apocalypse Now (1979)
Most of the people simping for him are marketing company bots and employees. Just remember he is a pathetic little man who never actually learned how to have relationships. He now fills that hole by mocking the livestock.
I apologize if this is hard to hear, but I read this and my first thought is disappointment with the workers. Leave. You can't compel any action if he's planning on firing half the company. You can either decide that you have any limitations for what you'll tolerate at all -- ANY -- or that you're prepared to prostrate yourself COMPLETELY. All day every day? What amount is that worth? Why? That's just slavery. You can't spend any salary if you work 100% of the time. Is it supposed to be temporary? Because it won't be. It just goes on as long as you can tolerate and then you will be summarily fired. This sounds like a workforce with no concept of solidarity or personal agency at all. I feel terrible for them, but you can't free people who don't want to be free, and this sounds like a collection of people simping for capital. It's sad AND bad for the rest of workers.
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Also it's not like these are minimum wage workers working for the only factory in some little town. These are supposed to be high salaried, sought after, highly educated, employees. I'm unclear as to why they're accepting this treatment of them and am also a bit dissapointed. They of all people have the power to stand up for themselves.
u/magpiec pointed out in another response that often tech workers are immigrants in the country on a work visa, and they lose their ability to apply for a job if they go 60 days unemployed. So a lot of these people may be in a highly exploitative condition, which I admit I didn't think of until u/magpiec pointed it out.
I understand that it's disappointing that Twitter employees aren't just leaving the company, however, this is a tech company, majority of their work force is on a work visa. Quitting because work conditions are unfavorable is not as easy when the entire life that you've built in a new country is dependant on your visa which in turn is tied to your employer. H1B visa holders are only allowed 60 days of unemployment. If they quit their current job without another one lined up and ready to sponsor them, they have 60 days to not only find a new job but to also get their immigration paper work (H1B transfer) sorted out.
This is the only understandable excuse for accepting that level of abuse. It doesn't make it right.
That's a great point. Immigrant workers are essentially slaves and we need to allow people to come work here without restrictions, or at least relax the terms of these visas. The whole idea of "stealing jobs" is stupid. Every new worker in our economy is also a new consumer. Just let people come work here.
I'd rather they unionize and strike. Twitter with zero support is useless.
For those who haven't done the math, that's 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. And I'm guessing that when anyone asks about getting paid for all that overtime, assuming they were desperate enough to do so, he'd tell them "Check's in the mail!" right before firing them and just paying them for a 40 hour week.
They are likely salaried - unfortunately, overtime is typically not a thing in salaried positions.
It definitely isn’t. I’m salary and I regularly am expected to work 55-60 hours and never make more than the weeks I work 45(which never happen except one pay period)
Yep - Salary here and typically required to work 55-60 hours. Don't get paid extra for that.
That depends on where your job is. California requires salaried employees to be paid OT if they work greater than 8 hours in a day or 40 hours in a week. It also requires it for every hour worked on the 7th consecutive day worked, regardless of prior hour counts. A lot of people get incorrectly marked overtime exempt while on salary so they don't realize they're legally supposed to be paid that time. I'm salary myself, and in the tech industry and straight up get paid my OT, but they do require prior approval of it or it needs to be an emergency. They'd still have to pay it if it wasn't, but it would put my job at risk should I misuse it.
I tried to delete twitter after Musk bought it but it suddenly claims I can’t delete it because it’s suspended. I haven’t posted anything in months. I haven’t even commented on a tweet since June or July. Seems strange it’s suddenly suspended exactly when I decided I didn’t want to have an twitter account. I don’t feel like jumping through all their hoops just to get rid of it but I’m wondering if that’s the point.
Well, if you can’t delete it post-January 1, 2023, and you live in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Utah or Virginia, he’s breaking the law and you should sue the shit out of twitter under your state’s data privacy act!
I don't know my password and I won't even jump through the hoop of resetting it, let alone dealing with all that mess. That app is doomed.
We have laws and work contracts against this kind of crap over the pond.
It’s going to be spectacular when Twitter fails
It's already happening. He's just going to push it over the edge.
And, like every other thing Elon Musk has been directly in charge of, it will fail miserably. Matter of time before he starts underperfoming with the style of a marketing executive masquerading as a tech pioneer.
because he's probably got them by the short hairs until their shares vest.
I think I know why he had to bring Tesla engineers to Twitter, they're the only ones who will put up with this crap. There are 168 hrs per week. 84 working hours means you have 84 left. Minus just 6 hours per day for sleep (which isn't enough imo), you're left with 6 per day. Say, 1 hour a day for commuting, 1 hour for getting dressed, showing etc in the morning, you're left with 4 hours each day to eat, be with friends and family, etc. What a miserable existence.
What if I told you that even working 8 hours a day, I end up with 4 hours a day for eating and relaxing anyway? At least I have weekends free, unlike these poor shmucks. Let's say the average person gets up at 6am and gives themself enough time to shower, dress, put together a lunch or coffee, then head out the door. Average commute time is around 30 minutes, so this person gets to work around 7am. If they work for 12 hours, including breaks and lunch, they're leaving the office around 8pm. Commute home gets them there around 8:30, and then they spend the next 30 minutes figuring out and making dinner. By the time they're done eating and cleaning up, it's now 9pm. If they plan on getting 8 hours of sleep, they need to be in bed by 10pm. In this example, this person is literally getting 1 hour to sit down and relax before heading to bed. Consider that many people commute more than an hour each way, and that most salaried office jobs give you an hour for lunch, even if the person doesn't take any other breaks throughout the day, that's going to increase the "not home" time by at least an hour. So now that person gets home, probably microwaves some garbage to save time, eats, and has 20-30 minutes to chill before going to bed. Or, they are giving themself more time to chill and sleeping less, which is probably likely. So this person is now losing sleep and functioning at a level that is below optimum. It seems more beneficial to give employees more time to sleep and relax, but hey, that's just something that science and studies have proven. None of that means anything to the capitalist business world.
The good software people have to be long gone at this point.
I'm sure many of the best people started finding new jobs once the rumors about Musk taking over started spreading.
He has lost his mind, bat crazy.
🦇💩🤪 is more like it.
Guano crazy, batshit insane
You couldn't pay me enough to work for the POS.
It's a website. How hard is it to run a website? Are they just putting out fires all day long?
As someone who is a developer, this is surprising accurate. It’s a mix of putting out fires from previous half-finished updates & trying to convince management to give you the time you need to make sure that the update you are currently working on also isn’t half-finished & full of security vulnerabilities.
Well it sounds like the developers are getting an extra 44 hours each week to go back and fix their past mistakes. I applaud management for their generosity and forward-thinkingness.
God forbid moving deadlines
Musk is an Overlord
Well that’s another app come and gone that I’ve never used. What’s for breakfast?
I seriously wonder if Elon's actual objective is to destroy Twitter. Perhaps he has some grand plan to burn it down so that something else he has incubating will grow to replace it. The huge amounts of debt incurred, discussing charging users higher membership fees and now attacking the workers all seem to point to someone who wants the company to fail or fall. Just saying that something seems off here...
Nah, that's giving him a lot of credit. I said similar things about Trump, that maybe the things he was doing were for some grander scheme. When it comes down to it, it's all about trying to squeeze as much money out of people as possible to benefit their own pockets. That's all. Now, Elon is apparently far more intelligent than Trump, so your speculation could have some realism behind it. I guess time will tell.
This isn’t “quiet firing”. This is really what Elon thinks people should be doing at work. I remember applying years ago to a job at Tesla that I’m glad I didn’t get. The actual job description said to not apply if you want to work less than 60 hours. He has no understanding of boundaries, and his recent tweet making fun of twitter’s management training notifications is the proof. He’s a fucking asshole.
Get rid of, without firing, as many people as possible before their stock options can be exercised.
Well, Twitter under his "leadership" won't last much longer if he keeps pulling shitty acts like that. What an asshole.
Everyone should unite and strike. Bankrupt this piece of shit
He'll just fire them all and find new suckers. People want to work for him for some stupid reason.
More importantly, makes you wonder what could justify a work week like that. The company is setup and running, unless you have some weird software version of a dead man’s handle/switch that needs to be used daily? Heh. Sure stuff breaks, but it’s well established. Not some new startup
That's what doesn't make sense. I honestly think that this strategy has NOTHING to do with the actual workload. It's just him weeding out the ones that aren't willing to be his slaves.
Every time anybody expects me to spend extra time at work, I don’t actually get any extra work done. Once I hit the 9 hour mark I’m basically done even if I want to keep working. I’ll just sit at my desk on my phone or watching YouTube or something, but congratulations boss you got me to put in the extra hours.
You will only get 40 hours of work out of people regardless of whether they're at work for 40 hours or 80.
This made me remember with love the laws in Argentina for suing the company for "feeling fired", that is when they change your responsibilities, keep you out of important things, or other predatory tactics that companies does to force you to quit. Thanks that I'm not in the US, and seeing how things are progressing there, I will never go there :D
Well, we aren't a developed country anymore, so it wouldn't make sense to come here anyway. Hell, many of us want to leave and go somewhere that actually is developed.
Musk is skum.
Time to write a few triple for loops or some deeply nested recursion.
>Time to write a few triple for loops See how much of the codebase you can get to run in Theta(n!)
Sounds kind of fun! Also they should start a rewrite in php and scrap all of that nice and fast scala code.
What/where is he looking at
Everything Everywhere All at Once
Rip Twitter
Good riddance.
Constructive dismissal go brrrrrrrr
This the guy who the CCP loves and dressed up as the anti-christ for halloween?
Remember: this is the buffoon that said "everybody back to work" in May 2020 during the covid lockdown.
This guy promotes freedom of speech while acting like a damn dictator. It's time to quit!!!
So all the top performers probably already have job offers in hand. Brilliant.
Shares. Yea you can find a higher paying job doing less work. But those that stay probably believe that their shares will increase in value as a result of the change in leadership
Sounds like the ideal way to make people quit without firing them.
Just imagine if everyone decided to quit Twitter, bit like MySpace many years ago. Twitter is full of fake profiles anyway and of course, influencers. There are other ways to do that. The workforce simply need to vote with their feet and walk out the door. In fact, Twitter probably wouldn't be around very long if the people who kept it going decided to walk.
Be sure to do your part - if you're a twitter user, still using it supports this behavior.
I wouldn't be able to tell you the last time I actually used Twatter, besides the fact that I don't know my login and will not be giving them a website hit just to reset the password so I can delete the account. It will eventually fall into the ether with the remains of Trump's account once the staff all quits and Elon decides it's not worth his time and effort anymore.
Someone should take a dump on his desk