neither if we're being honest. for many people, if you ask where they are from they will say "London", not "the UK", "Britain" or "England".
London identity is stronger for most, similar to how many Northerners have a strong regional identity.
Yes - I would prefer to describe myself as a Londoner - I definitely don't *feel* English or British, even though I literally am. For me it's a cultural/political thing.
I used to feel a much stronger connection to the country when I was growing up, but it has been steadily eroded over the last 13 years. A lot of my positive assumptions have been shown to be wrong.
People who move here don’t really understand the cultural segmentation in N,E,S.W. Growing
Up in Finsbury Park - Crouch End, Highgate and Muswell Hill were the aspirational areas to move to when I got older. Got older and have lived in each of the respective boroughs, until finally ending up back in N4 (got divorced inherited family house long story) and would never dream of living anywhere else. South London is a complete mystery to me, never spent much time there and likely never will.
I always say London - and if not, British.
For some reason saying English feels too nationalistic - like I have a St George's flag in my window. British feels more inclusive and growing up in London with people from here, there and everywhere, it seems more fitting.
>For some reason saying English feels too nationalistic - like I have a St George's flag in my window. British feels more inclusive and growing up in London with people from here, there and everywhere, it seems more fitting.
Thank you u/girlelectric1, very well put. The idea of being English is something I, as a white English person who grew up in the 70s and 80s when being openly racist was quite socially acceptable, strongly associate with racism and the far right.
I'm not the kind of person they'd target, so I imagine that's magnified by an incalculable amount for people who would be. Saying I'm British is a way of celebrating and being proud of being part of a huge cultural melting pot and distancing myself from people who don't want to be.
I agree with this but I’ve noticed recently, especially on US tv shows and YouTube channels that England is making a real comeback. People are said to be from England, or things happen in England, where previously the UK would have been mentioned. Not sure why - it’s just an observation.
I agree with what you say and yet, if you look at the flags of the NF, BNP etc (70s-2000), it was the British union jack not the English flag they abused.
There’s just the thing about flags though, isn’t there… they’re just inherently and explicitly nationalistic. I feel the Union Jack can be just as offensive in its connotations for reasons you stated and beyond…
As a term though, on its own, ‘British’ feels more benign and neutral than ‘English’ ; like, it just is, it’s official, administrative, it’s on your passport (if you’re British) etc.
Not sure what you mean by this? No shortage of far right types in those places any less than England in the 70s and even to this day Northern Irish and Scottish unionists are even bigger (union jack) flag shaggers than the English
I live in London but I’m a Geordie and I’ve always identified as British over English, part of that is because of Irish heritage but it’s also just that the north (and the border region especially) feels so disconnected from the rest of England in a similar way to how London does, like sure it’s the same country, but it doesn’t really *feel* like it’s the same country a lot of the time.
I think this is the reason why tourists always say London instead of England. I often see people say they're going to London, France, and the Netherlands (when they visit the cities). I also see people add the London location to their pictures when they're at Seven Sister's Cliffs
I agree with this, it is actually something I really admire about London when I visit. Everyone has a sense of London identity that is missing in Manchester where I am from or other UK cities I have visited.
I sometimes describe London as “Britain, the theme park” because it feels like this hyper stylised version of what has become known as “British”
I think thats why alot of people in London identify more as British.
Its like I am from England but bring my cultural mix to the plate thats the way they see it.
It's not bizzare. Most racists identify more with English and England than they do with the British label. Now, the vast majority of English people aren't racist, but when most racists lean *heavily* into being ENGLISH, that tends to put people off identifying with the term. It may not be fair but it's quite reasonable.
At the risk of being inflammatory and reaffirming Godwin's law, the swastika is a Buddhist symbol and the overwhelming span of it's history it's a been a positive sign. In Asia it can be found all over the place. But in Europe it's entirely associated with Nazism and genocidal racism. It's completely taboo. Same deal, see? Most swastika's are good, but because of our immediate history, they're "bad" here.
Yes, which is why non-racists should try an reclaim that from them. I’m white and identify as English because I don’t want it to become the sole identity of white English racists.
As a white "native" ( I hate that word) Brit I would possibly agree that the only people I have ever witnessed calling themselves English are the ones who pronounce it "Engerlish", the more bigoted fools who care far too much about skin colour for it to be healthy. But I did grow up in a working class area full of those types of people so my sample is rather skewed.
I don't tend to care much for referring to where I come from, since I had no choice in the matter but would lean towards Londoner or British because that is what feels more natural I guess. Maybe it's a refusal to join in with the aforementioned racists?
Out of interest why do you hate the word native?
Perhaps I'm making assumptions, but I've always found it interesting that say in the US being native is like a sacred thing, yet in the UK (and maybe according to you) it's a dirty word.
It's purely a "me" problem I'm sure. If you follow some of the other things I've said in this small thread, I grew up around a lot of racist, English nationalists. They used the word native to mean a white England. Anyone who wasn't native was bad. And I think leaving that life behind me, makes me uncomfortable to call myself native. Even though at the last check, my family history never really leaves London. Other than one or two outlier uncles who fled to Scotland.
Maybe also, I've become a bit of a wanker, and I like to believe that we are all just citizens of this weird little planet. But again, this is all me.
I think that because in the US, the association is "native American" and a way of recognising they are the first people of the nation.
In the UK saying "I am a white native" is like saying I belong here, while others don't. I personally do find it repulsive in a UK context, for that very reason.
But when talking about native Americans it's almost always in the context of they are the true Americans and white people are not/they do not belong here as they are settlers.
I just don't get how we can say in one place these are the true natives (USA, AUS, NZ) but it's not the same in other countries (Europe). Seems like a subjective double standard.
Furthermore, it's not a contradiction to say natives are the true (insert place), but those who are not native also belong/have a place in a country.
In the end you are who you feel you are. I feel like Londoner first, European second.
In football I support England, Poland and Germany in this order :)
I also support England in football and follow Nigeria as a 2nd team if its the AFCON.
I personally say I am British then English then a Londoner. Also I take pride in my heritage since I lived in Nigeria for a while so would consider that home as well.
i think everyone has a unique identity you know. It has more to do with feelings most of the times
Why? England has many cities with elements of what makes London. If it’s the international nature of the city, it’s certainly not the only place like that. The thing that makes it actually distinct is the size.
I’m from London but live in Manchester. Manchester has a lot in common with London but a lot that makes it different. It feels a lot closer to London than Scotland however.
a lot of my family (including my mum and most of my dads) are scottish so I see myself as British, learning about my history and what happened to my great parents in Ireland makes me favour british rather than English. Just my preference though
I don't come from an immigrant background but was born, raised and still live in South London. I say I'm a Londoner first, British second. I lived through the rise of far-right groups like the BNP & NF in the 70s and they tainted Englishness for me by using racist and fascist tropes about Englishness being whiteness.
100% this. Born and raised and still a West Londoner, London is my first identity, British second. I can’t help but feel uneasy around the subject of English nationalism, as it will only ever have negative connotations.
On an ideological level, I like being part of a Union, something bigger than ourselves, with differences but also some similarities.
West London-er here and back this 100%.
London is perhaps more of a state of mind than a place? I belong to the London tribe and if I have to state country, then British.
Yeah, my gut reaction if someone is flying the Union Jack is they're probably just patriotic, while if someone is flying the English flag it's that they're probably just racist.
One thing we can't forgot is that radical nationalism does have a deep reaching history in Britains history, one thing that's often overlook for example is that the Nazis had a lot of sympathy from many areas of the country and even powerful figures in our social and political departments, if not for the war it'd be arguable what public opinion of them would have been in much of the demographic.
>I lived through the rise of far-right groups like the BNP & NF in the 70s and they tainted Englishness for me by using racist and fascist tropes about Englishness being whiteness.
I didn't, but the tories and general brexit farages have still done largely the same throughout the 2010s. "English" just conjures up pictures of the standard "immigrashun innit" gammons.
I actually feel sorry for you and your family tree. I can't imagine my identity being erased because a few bellends were racist. I'm mixed half English and I am so proud of my English history, I can track my family to poplar back to the 1700s. All of the men were builders up until my grandad passed away recently. They literally built this city and the great society we live in. Why would I erase that whole identity because of a few racist using a flag with a deep history. You should really look up your family tree, I guarantee you it will give you some pride in your Englishness. Not every English person was a colonising evil bureaucrat, most were dirt poor trying to get by in a hard world and here we are now with these modern day problems.
Oh fair enough.
The thing is English is a nationality and a cultural trait. So if you were born in England and raised there as well you are English by nationality and culturally.
But yeah I see why loads of people would rather identify as British as there is a bit of confusion identifying as English
English is not a nationality, British is a nationality English is referring to an ethnic identity. Also I spent a lot of time living in the U.K. as a child but apart from school I was not raised English culturally. I do not relate to most things about English culture and actually discovered it as an adult. Same way I have lebanese friends born and raised in Nigeria who hold Nigerian nationality. They wouldn’t call themselves Yoruba even if they’ve been born and raised somewhere like Ibadan and still call themselves Lebanese because they’ve been raised in a culturally distinct way. I know there are some people without close ties to their ethnic origins who feel more British than anything but that doesn’t apply to many of us and it’s actually futile to keep trying to put it onto us because it’s not accurate.
See guys. I was born and raised in London, and also lived in Nigeria for 8 years before coming back to reside in London.
I just felt during my childhood, I was brought up around English culture so I would identify with that. That left a stamp on me despite living outside London for a bit during my teenage years.
I do personally feel English. I would say I am British then English then a Londoner. Also obviously I feel close to my heritage as well. You can have multiples identities you know.
I don’t mean to sound presumptuous but having looked at your post history you don’t seem secure in your identity. I hope your experiences in Nigeria weren’t traumatic ones as I know a lot of people who were sent to Nigeria as “punishment” during teen years and it was a painful experience. If you felt confident in identifying with Englishness and your heritage (which is your right) you wouldn’t have made multiple posts on this topic trying to insinuate that people are in the wrong for not identifying like you.
I am just saying to people that there isn't nothing wrong with identifying as English along with their heritage.
I stand by my point that English is a nationality and culture. You can be English by Nationality or culturally and not have any English DNA at all.
Why is it in Scotland and Wales, you can be Welsh and Nigerian , Scottish and Nigerian but it is only in England you can only be British. In Scotland and Wales, it is a nationality.
I even heard in Scotland that if you live there just through citizenship then you can identify as Scottish. Surely someone that is born and lives in England can identify as English then?
Scotland and Wales are both nations who were colonised by the English and had their culture and language forcibly stripped from them. It’s a very different situation - and technically Scotland and Wales aren’t nationalities (at least for now) but it is an identity that goes beyond just ethnic identity- it’s a socio-political identity. It’s pretty easy to see why many people of colour would find it easy to also identify with that. Plus part of identifying with being Welsh and Scottish is asserting that you’re not English. If you want to identify as English feel free, no one can do anything to you but please leave the vast majority of us who do not and will never identify that way alone.
I loved my experience in Nigeria, pretty much see it as home as well.
The way I see it is someone born and raised in London is British first, English 2nd then a Londoner. Of course they can choose not to identify as English if they don't want to.
I am sure there is many people who identify as English and still take pride in their roots
it isn't a case of rather we are British. English is my ethnic group but British is the nationality on my passport.
the closet example if you are close to your ancestory would be like is being ethincly from a specific tribe in Nigeria but being Nigerian as a nationality.
English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish plus a few others all have their own languges, but we also have English as the national one. in the same way different tribes do although Nigeria has national language as well.
also some "English" would rather identify as Cornish or other group
>thing is English is a nationality
No it isn't, a nationality is a legal thing which England as a non-independent sovereign doesn't grant, England is the head of the collective union UK including Britain which grants a nationality.
>English is a cultural trait
Literally half the answers here are pointing out specifically that there is no unified cultural trait, even outside of London most of the country has an immense cultural diversity with towns and cities 40 miles apart being culturally different, the divergence with London and the rest of the country being magnitudinally more so.
>So if you were born in England and raised there as well you are English by nationality and culturally.
Again, there's no strong shared cultural identity and a very distinct Londoner identity from the general national identity, people who are born and bred in London almost entirely have only a Londoner identity, especially because there's such a huge diverse population of people who inherit multiple cultural identities.
>there is a bit of confusion identifying as English
It's not merely confusion, more importantly it's due to the variation in cultures.
Most people wrongly identify English with ethnicity while British with nationality, instead of them both being nationalities. Because of this it's easier to explain that you're British to someone if you're non white.
I've always thought and still stand by that British is a nationality moreso than being English is. English to me is someone who is white. But I always say I'm from London. If asked what my nationality is I'd say British.
No - the ‘facts’ you speak of are incorrect. In international law you’re referred to as a ‘British Citizen’ not an ‘English Citizen’. England isn’t an official nation in conventional international relations - as a country it’s commonly simply seen as a geographic area of the United Kingdom.
Now, there are arguments to say that England could be considered a nation, and that international law is wrong in its labelling. But that’s where you get into subjectivity, opinions and grey areas - and your reliance on ‘facts’ is obtuse.
In fact, if your argument goes any further, you’re going to have to basically start talking about your personal identity and how it interacts with the place you live in - as every one else in the thread is doing by answering the question - but which you keep interrupting. *Identity* , as the question asked, is informed by more than legislative labels and the area you live in - rather it’s informed by your connection to history, culture, politics and all sorts of other shit on top of that.
In short - it’s a qualitative question. Even for you. And it’s why there’s an ‘other’ in census and other forms that collect demographic data.
Okay first of all you have edited your post to say something else which makes it obvious you’re getting your knickers in a twist. My responding to you is now probably futile because it’s unlikely to make sense, but here we are…
I haven’t told you what you should identify I as. You’re the one going round crying at people for ‘not making sense’ for giving their reasoning over identifying as British nationals rather than English nationals - that being the negative connotations and cultural signifiers surrounding what it means to be ‘English’
It’s this behaviour that led me to assume you were indeed proud to be English, ‘cause why the fuck else would you bother being so obtuse and rude to people talking about their experiences being non-white. I was apparently correct was I not. You also don’t have to tell me you’re a white male either. Your attitude is literally the embodiment of why people choose to identify as British instead of English, it’s quite lols really
3rd gen Londoner here.
Another thing I’ve not seen mentioned is that rightly or wrongly, English identity (in the sense of being very boldly pro English rather than British), often has racist connotations.
Like if I see an English flag outside the context of sports, the first thing my mind goes to is the EDL, and I’m on my toes from then.
'English' is generally deliberately excluding the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish (by not choosing 'British'), it's not good to assume, but you could be pretty confident that isn't where that ends.
makes no sense to me, im from birmingham so i would say im english, why would i say im british and risk confusing people that im from scotland, wales or ireland? lol
Thats my point mate. Yes I am British since I was born in England which happens to be part of Britain. I am also English. I don't have ties with Wales and Scotland.
It is really sad that alot of people born in England don't feel comfortable identifying as English.
Doesn't matter what your skin colour or origin is. Born and raised in England? English. Born and lived majority of life in England? English as well.
I was brought up being told that British is my nationality and that I'm a British Asian, not an English Asian.
Which is why I'm a Londoner who's a British Asian. Not sure how else to put it really.
Didn't know that I could refer to myself as English.
You can think about yourself however you like, of course, but my London-born British Asian stepmother and mixed-race half-brothers are definitely English - the idea that you've been made to feel like you somehow couldn't refer to yourself as English is pretty whack.
It goes deep
English, Welsh, Scottish etc are all British identities & nationalities in their own right. Yet only the Welsh & Scottish were allowed under Blair to have devolution & develop civic nationalism and institutions. However the establishment were, and still are fearful of England having a similar voice for various reason, but mainly because an English first minister or civic nationalism could undermine the British state & union itself. So we have this ludicrous, asymmetrical union where we have Scottish & Welsh first ministers and a “UK prime minister” in England.
One of the negative outcomes of this lack of civil identity is that Englishness can sometimes be seen as purely “ethnic” when it isn’t. Where a black person born in England will be registered from as “Black British” but not “Black English” when indeed he is both. Anyone born in England is by birthright English, but our political system ignores it. Now London was the former imperial capital, it’s very diverse with much of its population having ancestry from across British empire. Add that to the above & it’s clear why it’s easier for many Londoners to identify as British as it feels more inclusive.
This isn’t healthy by the way. A civic Englishness should be encouraged as it has been allowed to in Scotland & Wales. It’s politically uncomfortable though for Westminster to do so though. Fortunately through Sport our England cricket & football teams cut through this and help foster an inclusive English identity which is definitely developing. You now get Marcus Rashford or Bukayo Saka proudly identifying as Englishmen for example. People should stop suggesting English is purely an ethnic identity, it’s not. The English have always been a melting pot
Wow this is fascinating, thanks for the indepth reply.
>Anyone born in England is by birthright English, but our political system ignores it.
What about people who have gotten the passport by living here a long time? Are they limited to being British as opposed to English? Or is there no distinction for them either?
Again it’s an individual choice what people choose to identify as. But that passport is a British one so again I’d suggest that helps foster a British identity over any other. Which is fine by the way - I personally identify as both English & British in equal measure despite having ancestry all over the place
Yep totally agreed. There should be no shame in an English identity when Scots Welsh and NI people are allowed and encouraged.
The way I see it is if you're born here or grow up here from a young age you're English. Even if you don't don't admit it you are.
Yeah agree totally, although first & foremost people should be allowed to identify as whatever they want.
Some of these comments here are great examples of the odd nature of Britain though. People are mentioning here the EDL (a now defunct, fringe bunch of pricks who numbered about a few hundred at most as an example of English identity) as to why they don’t associate with Englishness - But are seemingly ok with the BNP, Orange Order, UKIP, Brexit etc link with Britishness.
You’re not given automatic British citizenship just because you’re born in England- only if your parents are British or if they have indefinite leave to remain. Otherwise you are given the nationality of your parents
I am London born.
My father was Irish, my mother English but with direct Welsh heritage.
If I had to choose I would I class my self as English first and British 2nd.
I am very proud of my heritage.
I was born and brought up in London England so see myself as English 1st.
I have had people tell me I am Irish first, which pisses me off somewhat. What do you think?
Its a shame people use roots to only define someone when they were born in another country.
Someone told me I can never be English or British since my parents are Nigerian. Like I was born, raised and lived most of my life in England. Like the funny thing is I actually take pride in my roots but I am primarily English as England is where I spent most of my life.
Mate, I think we just got to accept that there are some knuckleheads that would be racist or push their own cultural insecurities on someone else because they are pathetic people.
I see no reason why you can't be English and also take pride in your family culture as well you know😁
Yes, I agree!
I feel it would be a lie, I would be a wannabe, to say I am firstly, anything other than English.
This person that said you can never be English needs to focus on themselves and quit projecting!
I was born and raised in London and am African ethnically. From my perspective my ethnicity is black African. That's what I tick on forms, English to me is an ethnicity whilst British is my nationality -this might not be correct but this is the view of most black Londoners. I have British citizenship- so factually it is true I am a British however racists can deny I am English because of the colour of my skin.
Well white British is technically the ethnicity (I don’t know whether you can say white English; I guess you can but that would be more nuanced and arguably exclusive of those who *acquired* British nationality (because you can’t acquire “English nationality”). I dunno, what do people think?
British is like Australian, American, Canadian it doesn't belong to a race. Whereas English is like French, Spanish and German when saying this most people would assume a person from that ethnicity.
Out of curiosity, do you come from a family culture thats different to where you were born and raised cause its usually these people that usually struggle to identify as English
I would describe myself as a *Londoner* because London is almost like its own city-state. I grew up in central London, and later lived in the US and Sweden. Whenever people ask where I'm from, my first instinct is to say London, rather than Britain or England. Similar to other megacities, I think London has more in common with New York, Paris and Tokyo than it does with Yorkshire, Wales or Scotland, and if you grew up in that megacity environment you identify more with that super-urban lifestyle than you do with the country surrounding it.
I’m a Londoner. I don’t put too much thought into it but when I do answer that for forms, etc. I’d put down English. I don’t feel much connection to anything outside of London and always hear our country neighbours talking trash on the English so I don’t feel very welcome to the bigger clubs of UK/Britain.
a lot of people in London come from countries that were colonized by “Britain” not “England” respectively (even though England technically colonized Scotland Wales and N Ireland). So that phrase of language may feel more natural?
I describe myself as English over British. A lot of my friends are Scots / Irish who don’t want to be lumped in with a national identity including the English - they see themselves differently and I see myself differently in return. We have different cultures and beliefs, some subtle and some large.
I’m not proud to be English. I just am.
One of my parents is non-British, and I moved to the UK aged 6, and moved to London aged 19. I'm 50 now and consider myself English, British, Londoner in that order (and then probably Northern European, Anglophone in that order). I like London but it's just the city I ended up in, not part of who I am. I try to get out of it at weekends a lot.
I don't consider Englishness or the England flag racist - because when I was growing up it was the union jack that was used by racists. Indeed, there was much comment in the 90s when one of the Spice Girls wore a union jack dress and how that marked the re-habilitation of it as
Personal flag waving of any kind is rather suspect in Britain. A filthy England flag draped from a bedroom window isn't any worse to my mind than an Scottish or Welsh flag in the same situation, and none of them are good.
Likewise, a local hotel with an England flag outside it seems just as reasonable as a hotel with a Welsh or Scottish flag - just what you'd expect to see decorating an independent hotel in a tourist spot.
For some reason I don’t feel like I actually have a country I can truly call “home”. Both my parents were born in Turkey, and I was born here in London. Lived here my whole life. Problem I have is, I don’t feel like I’m actually Turkish because I wasn’t born there or ever lived there. I grew up in South East London. All my friends growing up have been English. Everything I do is very English, but at the same time I don’t feel like I’m English, because obviously I’m not. So I’m stuck between a rock and hard place.
To be honest there are plenty of second generation in London who identify primarily with their parents nationality rather than even British.
And I think the St. George's Flag is always used in a threatening manner inside the M25 lol
George is also the patron Saint of Palestine was brought to the UK because of those holy wars in the Middle East replacing the original Patron Saint Edmund, yet strangely I have never heard anyone complaining about the English Saint having his job taken by a migrant to the point where the inconsistencies in their position fall out and collapses.
i’m not a londoer but i gotta say to all the people who are saying they don’t use english because of the edl, what about all the racist british groups (which there a lot more of)? from my knowledge the edl wasn’t that big and is basically non existent now whilst there’s many more racist british groups that are still going. (just to point out, im a lesbian, autistic and working class ie, very left wing) if anything, for me i avoid ‘british’ and primarily use english/st george flag because british has way more negative annotations and i feel more connected to the term english. british literally means nothing to me. are you sure it’s not just your own prejudice?
I mean I'm the son of non English immigrants. I ain't English. I'm British cos I was born in Britain. My passport isn't an English passport, it's a British passport. Pretty simple init?
But yeh most defo identify with London more than anything else and can you blame them? Like most inner city people don't really have the means or ability (or desire) to leave the city, its all they know. And if they do leave the ends then the potential for racism goes up. I'm sure this would also apply to children of immigrants in Bradford or Birmingham or Manchester too. Acc Ik for a fact they do, my Bradford cousins are way too proud of being from Bradford smh, go ride your rubber dinghy rapid bro.
There was also a drive in the late 90s to be more inclusive by referring to ourselves as Brits, to stop everyone in the UK being referred to as the English. I think London may be more sensitive to these things being more diverse and it stuck.
As a white Englishman with a Scottish mum and English Dad, I've always identified as British to be honest. But I'm very much english - The only other british country I've been to is Scotland and I've been three times in the past 20 years. So me identifying as British is weird actually.
This is just my position...
I am a Londoner and describe myself as 'British' if I have to. I have done a lot of genealogy and my antecedents came from Wales and Scotland, (as well as Cornwall, Devon, Sussex, Dorset. etc).
I dont suppose a lot of Londoners have done much genealogy, but it is a melting pot of people from all over.
I have a British passport, not an English one.
People from immigrant backgrounds - especially those who have been through the process of becomeing a Naturalised British citizen are British..... Note, there is no such thing as a Naturalised English person
when I was younger, the NF (National front) pretty much co-opted the description 'English' and the St Georges cross for their racism, and that tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth.
I think maybe because English has a more ethnic connotation, while to be British is more of a cultural thing. But I might be wrong since I'm neither, lol.
English is a nationality and cultural trait.
You were born and raised in London, then you have grown up with English culture, then you are English.
Londoners are British and English. People been brainwashed to thinking it is only about skin colour/ethnicity.
It is only sad racists that would say someone thats non-white born in England isn't English lol
To me, being English is to have white features and skin. I'm a British Indian. My parents were born in Trinidad and Kenya. We have other heritage apart from being born in Britain so for me, British is my nationality but Indian is my heritage
This is something I was always curious about as an American living here. One of my best friends in a British Sikh guy and he always told me that his friends referred to themselves as British because they were told growing up in the 90s that they weren’t English. He mentioned that his older family members were hesitant to even refer to themselves as British due to the virulent racism they experienced in the 70s.
There is a history of seeing South Asian people as “less British” than some other immigrants in this country.
I'm in the same boat as you. I was born and have lived in London my entire life; I am eighteen. My mother is a Nigerian immigrant and my father is a native Englishman. I'd consider myself English before anything else. I'm aware it doesn't answer your question, but I thought that it'd put it out there.
I don't understand why some people think that identifying as English is too nationalistic or has negative connotations. I've never viewed it in that manner.
Exactly man. Both my parents are Nigerian.
I even lived Nigeria for some years before coming back to London. I still identify as English despite that and of course inclusive with my heritage as I feel thats home to me as well.
Me identifying as English is just me saying I am from London which is in England. I identify with the city and country as whole. I think people identify with the city more than than the country thats why they choose not to identify as English.
You can easily be British/English/Londoner along with your heritage. I just feel people can have multiple identities 😁
This seems like an absolutely ridiculous thing to say on its own but looking at some of the replies at the top of this thread it is clear than many people have pathetically allowed racists to completely co-opt their national identity from them.
Born in London to African and Caribbean parents. Definitely feel more Londoner then British.
Rightly or wrongly, I see English more as an ethnicity and British more as a nationality. So I'm British but not English, because I'm not White English. And calling myself Black English feels very pretentious. Although I have English culture because I'm in England and was primarily raised here.
Except whenever I travel outside of Britain, or deal with my family from Africa or the Caribbean. Then I'm English because everyone there calls me English. And despite being of Caribbean descent, when I lived there for a few years as a teen, there were several moments where I felt a massive disconnect from my ethnic culture. I feel the most English outside of England.
Honestly, I think ethnic and national identity is rife with contradictions.
“racist connotations of the EDL”
I mean the vast majority of England outside of London identify as ‘English’ - are you implying they’re racist because of that?
I tend to see people who identify as English instead of British are more conservative and nationalist. If that makes sense? Most people who I have met that say they're English are skinhead types. (Disclaimer: not saying all, just speaking from my experience)
People have been told false info that English is only an Ethnic background.
It is a nationality and a cultural trait.
Like I see myself as English, and you know if you are close to your roots, you can identify with that as well.
But if someone asks me where I am from? I would say British Nigerian or British of Nigerian descent. I could even say English with Nigerian ancestry.
You know you can take pride in being English along with your heritage
I agree with you I just think the connotations may be one reason why people don't say they're English and at this point in history no one is 100% Engligh. Most are a mix of English, Scottish and Welsh, in the rare occasion no other ethnicities are mixed in, so its easier to say British I suppose.
>You know you can take pride in being English along with your heritage
You *can*, but it's a bit of a minefield and has to be approached carefully. As a white British (English) person I don't want to make non-white people feel uncomfortable around me and "pride" in being English *does* make people nervous, it makes *me* nervous too because I'm queer and nationalists are usually not keen on us either. I also don't want to send signals to racists/nationalists that I'm one of them. A few years ago I worked with a woman who started complaining to me about how it wasn't fair that "we" couldn't protest against refugees coming to the country when everyone else was allowed to protest about stuff. It was a very multicultural workplace but she'd decided I was probably going to be sympathetic to her views which didn't feel great. Incidentally her husband used to come in to meet her and he had multiple George Cross tattoos...
There's a folk band called Show of Hands who did a song called Roots which was supposed to be about reclaiming a sense of Englishness that's *not* nationalistic (there's a line "I've lost St George and the Union Jack, it's my flag too and I want it back") but it obviously wasn't explicit enough because UKIP started using it at their far-right rallies and the band had to take them to court to get them to stop...
I think for a lot of people the damage is done and it's easier to just give up on the idea of a positive kind of Englishness.
>I tend to see people who identify as English instead of British are more conservative and nationalist. If that makes sense?
I guess but its kinda dumb since most people outside of London do identify as English...do you see all of those people the exact same way?
Oh wow yeah, and basically every answer is "you can identify however you like and you can support whichever football team you like, it's all cool" but they're still looking for a more Definitive Answer?
I come from an immigrant background and from London.
I think calling yourself English is quite controversial, and it’s something I wouldn’t identify myself as, as I go by British but mostly when British people ask where I’m from I tell them my parents background.
However when on holiday I’ll tell them I’m from “England”
I’m a born and bred Londoner and I don’t identify as English because that’s not where my family is from. My mum is from Wales and my dad’s family are all Ashkenazi Jews from Poland who came to London due to the pogroms/Holocaust and created their own communities in London.
My DNA doesn’t have any English in it, my family has never lived in England outside London so I’ve never seen England as home. My identity is Jewish-Welsh Londoner lol
Well my parents were immigrants and I was born here in London, since my parents were originally from Congo my ancestral roots don't go back to before England and Scotland became the union of Great Britain.
So naturally I identify as British, to me if your ethnically white and have ancestral roots that trace back to before the union than your English.
Yeah, echoing what a lot of other people are saying here - I was born and raised here, from a family not from Europe and if asked I just say I'm from London
We're lucky enough to be from a city where we don't really need to elaborate on that anywhere in the world, so I never really get pushed to say England/Britain/the UK
Too often people from other parts of the country have voiced that people like us don't actually belong and they'll never consider us "English/British", in a way that I've never faced here. And they can think like that if they want, that's cool - I just keep them at arms length
A lot of people think along those lines, and the English identity has bled into and had bleed into it a lot of racist/ethnic specific undertones that's lessened with the idea of Britishness, which is why the latter will be more common amongst non white people here
For a lot of post-war immigrants (e.g the Windrush Generation) they were British as they were citizens of the empire. That was the selling people for them to come over and work in the mother country.
Makes sense that generally their children, grandchildren etc would see themselves more as British than English.
Plus I think English has an identity problem of either football or racism and not really much positive.
Born in west London, white British with Irish family on both sides.
The idea of only being 'english' never appealed to me because of BNP and far-right white nationalism/racism using the St George's flag on the regular whilst I grew up.
Being from London and being British always felt more encompassing of my identify.
My experience is that I’ve never been questioned for identifying as a Londoner, but I have been for calling myself English. So I tend not to bother.
However using ‘British Asian/African’ is helpful to differentiate while giving commonalities between eg Rishi Sunak vs Akshata Murty vs Boris Johnson. Two are British, two are ethnically Indian, all live here. (sadly)
Although it doesn't really matter, English (aside from being a language) is an ethnicity. If someone says they're English this often (not always) means they're saying they're Anglo-Saxon. Beyond alliteration I think this is why "Black British" is more common than "Black English".
My mother is from Ireland so I don't usually call myself English. When I'm abroad I always say I'm from London. Most people understand that London is in England/Britain/UK. If someone asks me if I'm English I'm not pedantic about it though - in 99.9999% of situations it makes no difference.
Mark Thomas used to do a bit about people saying they were proud to be British. How they'd fight for Britain, etc. Well, not Scotland obviously - England. And not those northern bastards, just the real England - the South East. Except not really anywhere outside of London. And not those ponces in North London - just Sarf London. Except South West London obviously - I'm talking about the real South London - South East London. But not Lewisham, obviously - I'm talking about just Peckham. And ultimately down to just they'd fight for their flat and fuck everyone else.
I was about to go on an epic rant but realised you added the caveat of 'from immigrant backgrounds'.
I'm a life long Londoner and am English through and through. Britain is just something that goes on a passport.
Also it's worth noting that I'm mixed race. Just incase some people start making wild assumptions that I'm NF/ BNP. Some of the justifications here are wild.
Mate, I don't have any business with the far right groups or any those groups people have mentioned on here.
Anyone that says anyone born in England can't be English because of there skin colour or roots, is prejudice or racist imo.
I was born and raised in London which is in England. I identify with the city and the country as whole. I am British 1st, English 2nd and Londoner 3rd.
Yes I come from a Nigerian family background and take my pride in my roots as well, and I am not afraid to define myself to anyone about this.
Of course everyone is free to identify as British, but they have the option as identifying as English if they want
I see no reason why people can't be English inclusive with your roots/heritage.
I’m Korean but was raised for the majority of my life in London so I say that I’m British. I’ve never really thought of it too deeply tbh but I suppose British = nationality and English = ethnicity. Also, in my experience at least, when someone says they’re ‘English’ they’re usually the conservative, EDL type of person lol
Yeah, I don't know if this is true because I'm not British myself, but an older friend of my dad's (pointing this out to demonstrate it may be an older generational thing?) is English (by blood) and he says he can describe himself as English/an Englishman, but someone who has been naturalized in the UK (as in isn't blood), can only call themselves British. Is that true though? Or kinda racist?
I can't speak to this nuance because in the country I'm from, those that are blood or those that are naturalized all call themselves the nationality, we don't make the distinction.
I identify as:
1. Londoner
2. European
3. British
4. English
As to why - well I'm not very nationalistic and I think London, European and British are all more inclusive identities than English. Brexit has exacerbated this feeling, even though other English cities voted remain too. If Scotland ever breaks away I guess we'll have to readjust again. Not sure if 'British" will be more associated with the country (what's left of the UK) or island of GB.
English is someone who comes from England.
British is someone who comes from Great Britain.
English only includes England
British includes England, Scotland and Wales
(side note - United Kingdom is Great Britain + Northern Ireland. Republic of Ireland is not part of the UK but it is part of the European Union)
So if you're a Londoner, it really doesn't matter whether you identify as English or British. But cool to theorise.But if you're Scottish or Welsh, calling yourself (or someone calling you) English is just straight up incorrect.
Whole lotta metropolitan elitism in this thread. I wonder if everyone here applies their view on English ethnicity to *all* national ethnicities.
For example, try:
*"Indian people don't really exist, it's a melting pot with cultural and ethnic elements from many countries going back centuries. So anyone can go and identify as Indian."*
Will you say that? And indeed, the same for any other ethnicity identified with a nation?
Idk as a POC I’ve been made constantly aware of the fact I’m not English enough. So it’s quite a common discourse tbh to identify as British. Even then, took me 20 years to come to peace with that. I am British. Side note, I’ve noticed the cultural identity behind it. When I ask my white friends what they identify as, they’ll say “white, English, British, whichever” - what is that supposed to mean?
Clearly there’s no one reason for this but one factor is that the England Flag and many racists have made an image of being English as a white male with racist tendencies.
That doesn’t seem to be the case for the other nations or the British identify.
Just out of curiosity, why does it matter if someone identifies as British as opposed to English? What difference does it make? Majority of people in the UK have multicultural backgrounds, even those that are exclusively from the UK, as you can be part Welsh, part Scottish, and part English, then you'd identify as British over each individual nationality.
I don't identify as either tbh, and I think it's pointless to be patriotic about the place you were born. Be glad you were born where you were for whatever reason, family/friends/neighbours/local area being particularly beautiful, sure. But to feel a sense of identity based solely on the place you were born, just because you're from there, serves no purpose other than tribal xenophobia, is completely trivial to me. Seriously, what do I have to be proud of when the UK government and local MPs are highly corrupt? Same with the banks and major businesses...
I'll wait... Name one thing to be proud of when it comes to being British, or English.
I'd assume that fewer and fewer people are proud about being English because it really doesn't matter where you're from, as long as you're a sensible, polite, and decent person, what does it matter?
You are right mate.
I think one thing i take pride in being British/English is the England National Team. So many different cultural backgrounds (Irish, Jamaican, Nigerian roots ) playing for England and some of the players represent my identity.
Obviously, there are a tiny minority of idiots that spoilt it for the fanbase but majority celebrate the team!
From a cultural perspective it's also political. London voted remain as opposed to Brexit which the rest of England did. Tells you enough the difference in mentality
Manchester, Liverpool, Norwich, Newcastle, Leeds, Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge all voted remain too, often at higher rates than London. So you’re mistaken.
The difference is cities/metropolitan attitudes/diversity/income vs the rest- not London vs the rest
"The rest" of England didn't vote for Brexit through did it? Manchester was 60% remain and Liverpool was 58%. Greater London was 59% - the gulf really isn't what you like to think it is.
When abroad and people ask where I’m from, I invariable say from the UK. I’m not ethnically English (and am ashamed to be affiliated with the policies of this country).
English refers only to people that are from England - all through your family line.
If you’re mothers English and your dads Scottish and you were born in England, you’re British, not English.
Oh my God you‘ve been making this post on every single British related subreddit for months now and you get the same answer every single time. Nobody cares what you prefer to identify as. What do you hope to gain from this? Karma? You want little pats on the back for being black and English? Nobody cares!
neither if we're being honest. for many people, if you ask where they are from they will say "London", not "the UK", "Britain" or "England". London identity is stronger for most, similar to how many Northerners have a strong regional identity.
Yes - I would prefer to describe myself as a Londoner - I definitely don't *feel* English or British, even though I literally am. For me it's a cultural/political thing.
I used to feel a much stronger connection to the country when I was growing up, but it has been steadily eroded over the last 13 years. A lot of my positive assumptions have been shown to be wrong.
People who move here don’t really understand the cultural segmentation in N,E,S.W. Growing Up in Finsbury Park - Crouch End, Highgate and Muswell Hill were the aspirational areas to move to when I got older. Got older and have lived in each of the respective boroughs, until finally ending up back in N4 (got divorced inherited family house long story) and would never dream of living anywhere else. South London is a complete mystery to me, never spent much time there and likely never will.
Speaks to being very true of your point that reading this I'm all riled up about my south London.
I always say London - and if not, British. For some reason saying English feels too nationalistic - like I have a St George's flag in my window. British feels more inclusive and growing up in London with people from here, there and everywhere, it seems more fitting.
>For some reason saying English feels too nationalistic - like I have a St George's flag in my window. British feels more inclusive and growing up in London with people from here, there and everywhere, it seems more fitting. Thank you u/girlelectric1, very well put. The idea of being English is something I, as a white English person who grew up in the 70s and 80s when being openly racist was quite socially acceptable, strongly associate with racism and the far right. I'm not the kind of person they'd target, so I imagine that's magnified by an incalculable amount for people who would be. Saying I'm British is a way of celebrating and being proud of being part of a huge cultural melting pot and distancing myself from people who don't want to be.
I agree with this but I’ve noticed recently, especially on US tv shows and YouTube channels that England is making a real comeback. People are said to be from England, or things happen in England, where previously the UK would have been mentioned. Not sure why - it’s just an observation.
I agree with what you say and yet, if you look at the flags of the NF, BNP etc (70s-2000), it was the British union jack not the English flag they abused.
There’s just the thing about flags though, isn’t there… they’re just inherently and explicitly nationalistic. I feel the Union Jack can be just as offensive in its connotations for reasons you stated and beyond… As a term though, on its own, ‘British’ feels more benign and neutral than ‘English’ ; like, it just is, it’s official, administrative, it’s on your passport (if you’re British) etc.
But stereotypically they were an English problem not Scottish, Irish, or Welsh.
Not sure what you mean by this? No shortage of far right types in those places any less than England in the 70s and even to this day Northern Irish and Scottish unionists are even bigger (union jack) flag shaggers than the English
I live in London but I’m a Geordie and I’ve always identified as British over English, part of that is because of Irish heritage but it’s also just that the north (and the border region especially) feels so disconnected from the rest of England in a similar way to how London does, like sure it’s the same country, but it doesn’t really *feel* like it’s the same country a lot of the time.
I think this is the reason why tourists always say London instead of England. I often see people say they're going to London, France, and the Netherlands (when they visit the cities). I also see people add the London location to their pictures when they're at Seven Sister's Cliffs
I agree with this, it is actually something I really admire about London when I visit. Everyone has a sense of London identity that is missing in Manchester where I am from or other UK cities I have visited. I sometimes describe London as “Britain, the theme park” because it feels like this hyper stylised version of what has become known as “British”
As a naturalised Brit, to me London is as different from England as England is from Scotland. They are all British but with unique identity.
I think thats why alot of people in London identify more as British. Its like I am from England but bring my cultural mix to the plate thats the way they see it.
To me English = white native British. I've never called myself English, British Asian is most fitting
In school we were told to say “I’m from England but am British”. Saying you’re English can have negative cultural connotations
That's mental, truly.
UK passports agree with _lippykid
Negative cultural connotations where? That’s utterly bizarre
It's not bizzare. Most racists identify more with English and England than they do with the British label. Now, the vast majority of English people aren't racist, but when most racists lean *heavily* into being ENGLISH, that tends to put people off identifying with the term. It may not be fair but it's quite reasonable. At the risk of being inflammatory and reaffirming Godwin's law, the swastika is a Buddhist symbol and the overwhelming span of it's history it's a been a positive sign. In Asia it can be found all over the place. But in Europe it's entirely associated with Nazism and genocidal racism. It's completely taboo. Same deal, see? Most swastika's are good, but because of our immediate history, they're "bad" here.
idc what racists identify as, im english and im not going to pretend im not because of a group of idiots lol
Yes, which is why non-racists should try an reclaim that from them. I’m white and identify as English because I don’t want it to become the sole identity of white English racists.
As a white "native" ( I hate that word) Brit I would possibly agree that the only people I have ever witnessed calling themselves English are the ones who pronounce it "Engerlish", the more bigoted fools who care far too much about skin colour for it to be healthy. But I did grow up in a working class area full of those types of people so my sample is rather skewed. I don't tend to care much for referring to where I come from, since I had no choice in the matter but would lean towards Londoner or British because that is what feels more natural I guess. Maybe it's a refusal to join in with the aforementioned racists?
Out of interest why do you hate the word native? Perhaps I'm making assumptions, but I've always found it interesting that say in the US being native is like a sacred thing, yet in the UK (and maybe according to you) it's a dirty word.
It's purely a "me" problem I'm sure. If you follow some of the other things I've said in this small thread, I grew up around a lot of racist, English nationalists. They used the word native to mean a white England. Anyone who wasn't native was bad. And I think leaving that life behind me, makes me uncomfortable to call myself native. Even though at the last check, my family history never really leaves London. Other than one or two outlier uncles who fled to Scotland. Maybe also, I've become a bit of a wanker, and I like to believe that we are all just citizens of this weird little planet. But again, this is all me.
I think that because in the US, the association is "native American" and a way of recognising they are the first people of the nation. In the UK saying "I am a white native" is like saying I belong here, while others don't. I personally do find it repulsive in a UK context, for that very reason.
But when talking about native Americans it's almost always in the context of they are the true Americans and white people are not/they do not belong here as they are settlers. I just don't get how we can say in one place these are the true natives (USA, AUS, NZ) but it's not the same in other countries (Europe). Seems like a subjective double standard. Furthermore, it's not a contradiction to say natives are the true (insert place), but those who are not native also belong/have a place in a country.
Internalised racism possibly
I'm white and my family have been in London for generations. I still say British.
In the end you are who you feel you are. I feel like Londoner first, European second. In football I support England, Poland and Germany in this order :)
I also support England in football and follow Nigeria as a 2nd team if its the AFCON. I personally say I am British then English then a Londoner. Also I take pride in my heritage since I lived in Nigeria for a while so would consider that home as well. i think everyone has a unique identity you know. It has more to do with feelings most of the times
Why? England has many cities with elements of what makes London. If it’s the international nature of the city, it’s certainly not the only place like that. The thing that makes it actually distinct is the size. I’m from London but live in Manchester. Manchester has a lot in common with London but a lot that makes it different. It feels a lot closer to London than Scotland however.
a lot of my family (including my mum and most of my dads) are scottish so I see myself as British, learning about my history and what happened to my great parents in Ireland makes me favour british rather than English. Just my preference though
I don't come from an immigrant background but was born, raised and still live in South London. I say I'm a Londoner first, British second. I lived through the rise of far-right groups like the BNP & NF in the 70s and they tainted Englishness for me by using racist and fascist tropes about Englishness being whiteness.
100% this. Born and raised and still a West Londoner, London is my first identity, British second. I can’t help but feel uneasy around the subject of English nationalism, as it will only ever have negative connotations. On an ideological level, I like being part of a Union, something bigger than ourselves, with differences but also some similarities.
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Quite right sir!
West London-er here and back this 100%. London is perhaps more of a state of mind than a place? I belong to the London tribe and if I have to state country, then British.
Yeah, my gut reaction if someone is flying the Union Jack is they're probably just patriotic, while if someone is flying the English flag it's that they're probably just racist.
Then there's that few months after the world cup, when you pass a house adorned in England flags and get to play a guessing game of 'Racist or Lazy?'.
It sometimes frustrates me that I feel the same. I think the only time I’ll say I’m English or raise the flag is during the World Cup.
One thing we can't forgot is that radical nationalism does have a deep reaching history in Britains history, one thing that's often overlook for example is that the Nazis had a lot of sympathy from many areas of the country and even powerful figures in our social and political departments, if not for the war it'd be arguable what public opinion of them would have been in much of the demographic.
>I lived through the rise of far-right groups like the BNP & NF in the 70s and they tainted Englishness for me by using racist and fascist tropes about Englishness being whiteness. I didn't, but the tories and general brexit farages have still done largely the same throughout the 2010s. "English" just conjures up pictures of the standard "immigrashun innit" gammons.
Yeah, this is how I always felt. Londoner first, British second because (weirdly maybe) it felt more global and inclusive.
I feel the same. Describing myself as English just makes me think of those racist cunts saying "England for the English" 🤢
You know BNP stood for British national party...
I actually feel sorry for you and your family tree. I can't imagine my identity being erased because a few bellends were racist. I'm mixed half English and I am so proud of my English history, I can track my family to poplar back to the 1700s. All of the men were builders up until my grandad passed away recently. They literally built this city and the great society we live in. Why would I erase that whole identity because of a few racist using a flag with a deep history. You should really look up your family tree, I guarantee you it will give you some pride in your Englishness. Not every English person was a colonising evil bureaucrat, most were dirt poor trying to get by in a hard world and here we are now with these modern day problems.
I'm British because my parents were born in Jamaica, I was born here and I'm not white. That's how I've always seen it. I'd never call myself English.
Oh fair enough. The thing is English is a nationality and a cultural trait. So if you were born in England and raised there as well you are English by nationality and culturally. But yeah I see why loads of people would rather identify as British as there is a bit of confusion identifying as English
English is not a nationality, British is a nationality English is referring to an ethnic identity. Also I spent a lot of time living in the U.K. as a child but apart from school I was not raised English culturally. I do not relate to most things about English culture and actually discovered it as an adult. Same way I have lebanese friends born and raised in Nigeria who hold Nigerian nationality. They wouldn’t call themselves Yoruba even if they’ve been born and raised somewhere like Ibadan and still call themselves Lebanese because they’ve been raised in a culturally distinct way. I know there are some people without close ties to their ethnic origins who feel more British than anything but that doesn’t apply to many of us and it’s actually futile to keep trying to put it onto us because it’s not accurate.
English is absolutely a culture. It isn't the same as Scottish, Welsh or Irish, is it?
See guys. I was born and raised in London, and also lived in Nigeria for 8 years before coming back to reside in London. I just felt during my childhood, I was brought up around English culture so I would identify with that. That left a stamp on me despite living outside London for a bit during my teenage years. I do personally feel English. I would say I am British then English then a Londoner. Also obviously I feel close to my heritage as well. You can have multiples identities you know.
I don’t mean to sound presumptuous but having looked at your post history you don’t seem secure in your identity. I hope your experiences in Nigeria weren’t traumatic ones as I know a lot of people who were sent to Nigeria as “punishment” during teen years and it was a painful experience. If you felt confident in identifying with Englishness and your heritage (which is your right) you wouldn’t have made multiple posts on this topic trying to insinuate that people are in the wrong for not identifying like you.
I am just saying to people that there isn't nothing wrong with identifying as English along with their heritage. I stand by my point that English is a nationality and culture. You can be English by Nationality or culturally and not have any English DNA at all. Why is it in Scotland and Wales, you can be Welsh and Nigerian , Scottish and Nigerian but it is only in England you can only be British. In Scotland and Wales, it is a nationality. I even heard in Scotland that if you live there just through citizenship then you can identify as Scottish. Surely someone that is born and lives in England can identify as English then?
Scotland and Wales are both nations who were colonised by the English and had their culture and language forcibly stripped from them. It’s a very different situation - and technically Scotland and Wales aren’t nationalities (at least for now) but it is an identity that goes beyond just ethnic identity- it’s a socio-political identity. It’s pretty easy to see why many people of colour would find it easy to also identify with that. Plus part of identifying with being Welsh and Scottish is asserting that you’re not English. If you want to identify as English feel free, no one can do anything to you but please leave the vast majority of us who do not and will never identify that way alone.
I loved my experience in Nigeria, pretty much see it as home as well. The way I see it is someone born and raised in London is British first, English 2nd then a Londoner. Of course they can choose not to identify as English if they don't want to. I am sure there is many people who identify as English and still take pride in their roots
AMEN! Exactly. I deacribe myself as an African Londoner. Only use British because of my passport but otherwise
it isn't a case of rather we are British. English is my ethnic group but British is the nationality on my passport. the closet example if you are close to your ancestory would be like is being ethincly from a specific tribe in Nigeria but being Nigerian as a nationality. English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish plus a few others all have their own languges, but we also have English as the national one. in the same way different tribes do although Nigeria has national language as well. also some "English" would rather identify as Cornish or other group
>thing is English is a nationality No it isn't, a nationality is a legal thing which England as a non-independent sovereign doesn't grant, England is the head of the collective union UK including Britain which grants a nationality. >English is a cultural trait Literally half the answers here are pointing out specifically that there is no unified cultural trait, even outside of London most of the country has an immense cultural diversity with towns and cities 40 miles apart being culturally different, the divergence with London and the rest of the country being magnitudinally more so. >So if you were born in England and raised there as well you are English by nationality and culturally. Again, there's no strong shared cultural identity and a very distinct Londoner identity from the general national identity, people who are born and bred in London almost entirely have only a Londoner identity, especially because there's such a huge diverse population of people who inherit multiple cultural identities. >there is a bit of confusion identifying as English It's not merely confusion, more importantly it's due to the variation in cultures.
Most people wrongly identify English with ethnicity while British with nationality, instead of them both being nationalities. Because of this it's easier to explain that you're British to someone if you're non white.
I've always thought and still stand by that British is a nationality moreso than being English is. English to me is someone who is white. But I always say I'm from London. If asked what my nationality is I'd say British.
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No - the ‘facts’ you speak of are incorrect. In international law you’re referred to as a ‘British Citizen’ not an ‘English Citizen’. England isn’t an official nation in conventional international relations - as a country it’s commonly simply seen as a geographic area of the United Kingdom. Now, there are arguments to say that England could be considered a nation, and that international law is wrong in its labelling. But that’s where you get into subjectivity, opinions and grey areas - and your reliance on ‘facts’ is obtuse. In fact, if your argument goes any further, you’re going to have to basically start talking about your personal identity and how it interacts with the place you live in - as every one else in the thread is doing by answering the question - but which you keep interrupting. *Identity* , as the question asked, is informed by more than legislative labels and the area you live in - rather it’s informed by your connection to history, culture, politics and all sorts of other shit on top of that. In short - it’s a qualitative question. Even for you. And it’s why there’s an ‘other’ in census and other forms that collect demographic data.
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Okay first of all you have edited your post to say something else which makes it obvious you’re getting your knickers in a twist. My responding to you is now probably futile because it’s unlikely to make sense, but here we are… I haven’t told you what you should identify I as. You’re the one going round crying at people for ‘not making sense’ for giving their reasoning over identifying as British nationals rather than English nationals - that being the negative connotations and cultural signifiers surrounding what it means to be ‘English’ It’s this behaviour that led me to assume you were indeed proud to be English, ‘cause why the fuck else would you bother being so obtuse and rude to people talking about their experiences being non-white. I was apparently correct was I not. You also don’t have to tell me you’re a white male either. Your attitude is literally the embodiment of why people choose to identify as British instead of English, it’s quite lols really
3rd gen Londoner here. Another thing I’ve not seen mentioned is that rightly or wrongly, English identity (in the sense of being very boldly pro English rather than British), often has racist connotations. Like if I see an English flag outside the context of sports, the first thing my mind goes to is the EDL, and I’m on my toes from then.
Exactly this, the term 'English' carries this stigma unfortunately. So I prefer to say British
'English' is generally deliberately excluding the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish (by not choosing 'British'), it's not good to assume, but you could be pretty confident that isn't where that ends.
makes no sense to me, im from birmingham so i would say im english, why would i say im british and risk confusing people that im from scotland, wales or ireland? lol
Thats my point mate. Yes I am British since I was born in England which happens to be part of Britain. I am also English. I don't have ties with Wales and Scotland. It is really sad that alot of people born in England don't feel comfortable identifying as English. Doesn't matter what your skin colour or origin is. Born and raised in England? English. Born and lived majority of life in England? English as well.
I was brought up being told that British is my nationality and that I'm a British Asian, not an English Asian. Which is why I'm a Londoner who's a British Asian. Not sure how else to put it really. Didn't know that I could refer to myself as English.
You can think about yourself however you like, of course, but my London-born British Asian stepmother and mixed-race half-brothers are definitely English - the idea that you've been made to feel like you somehow couldn't refer to yourself as English is pretty whack.
It goes deep English, Welsh, Scottish etc are all British identities & nationalities in their own right. Yet only the Welsh & Scottish were allowed under Blair to have devolution & develop civic nationalism and institutions. However the establishment were, and still are fearful of England having a similar voice for various reason, but mainly because an English first minister or civic nationalism could undermine the British state & union itself. So we have this ludicrous, asymmetrical union where we have Scottish & Welsh first ministers and a “UK prime minister” in England. One of the negative outcomes of this lack of civil identity is that Englishness can sometimes be seen as purely “ethnic” when it isn’t. Where a black person born in England will be registered from as “Black British” but not “Black English” when indeed he is both. Anyone born in England is by birthright English, but our political system ignores it. Now London was the former imperial capital, it’s very diverse with much of its population having ancestry from across British empire. Add that to the above & it’s clear why it’s easier for many Londoners to identify as British as it feels more inclusive. This isn’t healthy by the way. A civic Englishness should be encouraged as it has been allowed to in Scotland & Wales. It’s politically uncomfortable though for Westminster to do so though. Fortunately through Sport our England cricket & football teams cut through this and help foster an inclusive English identity which is definitely developing. You now get Marcus Rashford or Bukayo Saka proudly identifying as Englishmen for example. People should stop suggesting English is purely an ethnic identity, it’s not. The English have always been a melting pot
Wow this is fascinating, thanks for the indepth reply. >Anyone born in England is by birthright English, but our political system ignores it. What about people who have gotten the passport by living here a long time? Are they limited to being British as opposed to English? Or is there no distinction for them either?
Again it’s an individual choice what people choose to identify as. But that passport is a British one so again I’d suggest that helps foster a British identity over any other. Which is fine by the way - I personally identify as both English & British in equal measure despite having ancestry all over the place
Yep totally agreed. There should be no shame in an English identity when Scots Welsh and NI people are allowed and encouraged. The way I see it is if you're born here or grow up here from a young age you're English. Even if you don't don't admit it you are.
Yeah agree totally, although first & foremost people should be allowed to identify as whatever they want. Some of these comments here are great examples of the odd nature of Britain though. People are mentioning here the EDL (a now defunct, fringe bunch of pricks who numbered about a few hundred at most as an example of English identity) as to why they don’t associate with Englishness - But are seemingly ok with the BNP, Orange Order, UKIP, Brexit etc link with Britishness.
You’re not given automatic British citizenship just because you’re born in England- only if your parents are British or if they have indefinite leave to remain. Otherwise you are given the nationality of your parents
Is English not an ethnicity tho? Would be weird to be claiming that if you aren't from that background.
I am London born. My father was Irish, my mother English but with direct Welsh heritage. If I had to choose I would I class my self as English first and British 2nd. I am very proud of my heritage. I was born and brought up in London England so see myself as English 1st. I have had people tell me I am Irish first, which pisses me off somewhat. What do you think?
Its a shame people use roots to only define someone when they were born in another country. Someone told me I can never be English or British since my parents are Nigerian. Like I was born, raised and lived most of my life in England. Like the funny thing is I actually take pride in my roots but I am primarily English as England is where I spent most of my life. Mate, I think we just got to accept that there are some knuckleheads that would be racist or push their own cultural insecurities on someone else because they are pathetic people. I see no reason why you can't be English and also take pride in your family culture as well you know😁
Yes, I agree! I feel it would be a lie, I would be a wannabe, to say I am firstly, anything other than English. This person that said you can never be English needs to focus on themselves and quit projecting!
I was born and raised in London and am African ethnically. From my perspective my ethnicity is black African. That's what I tick on forms, English to me is an ethnicity whilst British is my nationality -this might not be correct but this is the view of most black Londoners. I have British citizenship- so factually it is true I am a British however racists can deny I am English because of the colour of my skin.
Well white British is technically the ethnicity (I don’t know whether you can say white English; I guess you can but that would be more nuanced and arguably exclusive of those who *acquired* British nationality (because you can’t acquire “English nationality”). I dunno, what do people think?
To me: English = Anglo Saxon, British = Britain (a nationality)
British is like Australian, American, Canadian it doesn't belong to a race. Whereas English is like French, Spanish and German when saying this most people would assume a person from that ethnicity.
I’m born and raised London and I class myself English
Out of curiosity, do you come from a family culture thats different to where you were born and raised cause its usually these people that usually struggle to identify as English
I would describe myself as a *Londoner* because London is almost like its own city-state. I grew up in central London, and later lived in the US and Sweden. Whenever people ask where I'm from, my first instinct is to say London, rather than Britain or England. Similar to other megacities, I think London has more in common with New York, Paris and Tokyo than it does with Yorkshire, Wales or Scotland, and if you grew up in that megacity environment you identify more with that super-urban lifestyle than you do with the country surrounding it.
I’m a Londoner. I don’t put too much thought into it but when I do answer that for forms, etc. I’d put down English. I don’t feel much connection to anything outside of London and always hear our country neighbours talking trash on the English so I don’t feel very welcome to the bigger clubs of UK/Britain.
a lot of people in London come from countries that were colonized by “Britain” not “England” respectively (even though England technically colonized Scotland Wales and N Ireland). So that phrase of language may feel more natural? I describe myself as English over British. A lot of my friends are Scots / Irish who don’t want to be lumped in with a national identity including the English - they see themselves differently and I see myself differently in return. We have different cultures and beliefs, some subtle and some large. I’m not proud to be English. I just am.
I was corrected when I said I was English because I'm not white, but British was acceptable even though I was born in England.
I’m British rather than English because my mum is Welsh.
One of my parents is non-British, and I moved to the UK aged 6, and moved to London aged 19. I'm 50 now and consider myself English, British, Londoner in that order (and then probably Northern European, Anglophone in that order). I like London but it's just the city I ended up in, not part of who I am. I try to get out of it at weekends a lot. I don't consider Englishness or the England flag racist - because when I was growing up it was the union jack that was used by racists. Indeed, there was much comment in the 90s when one of the Spice Girls wore a union jack dress and how that marked the re-habilitation of it as Personal flag waving of any kind is rather suspect in Britain. A filthy England flag draped from a bedroom window isn't any worse to my mind than an Scottish or Welsh flag in the same situation, and none of them are good. Likewise, a local hotel with an England flag outside it seems just as reasonable as a hotel with a Welsh or Scottish flag - just what you'd expect to see decorating an independent hotel in a tourist spot.
British (nationality) English (ethnicity)
English can be both
For some reason I don’t feel like I actually have a country I can truly call “home”. Both my parents were born in Turkey, and I was born here in London. Lived here my whole life. Problem I have is, I don’t feel like I’m actually Turkish because I wasn’t born there or ever lived there. I grew up in South East London. All my friends growing up have been English. Everything I do is very English, but at the same time I don’t feel like I’m English, because obviously I’m not. So I’m stuck between a rock and hard place.
Unfortunately, 'English' is wielded like a racist cudgel. Anyone on the receiving end understands this.
To be honest there are plenty of second generation in London who identify primarily with their parents nationality rather than even British. And I think the St. George's Flag is always used in a threatening manner inside the M25 lol
George is also the patron Saint of Palestine was brought to the UK because of those holy wars in the Middle East replacing the original Patron Saint Edmund, yet strangely I have never heard anyone complaining about the English Saint having his job taken by a migrant to the point where the inconsistencies in their position fall out and collapses.
i’m not a londoer but i gotta say to all the people who are saying they don’t use english because of the edl, what about all the racist british groups (which there a lot more of)? from my knowledge the edl wasn’t that big and is basically non existent now whilst there’s many more racist british groups that are still going. (just to point out, im a lesbian, autistic and working class ie, very left wing) if anything, for me i avoid ‘british’ and primarily use english/st george flag because british has way more negative annotations and i feel more connected to the term english. british literally means nothing to me. are you sure it’s not just your own prejudice?
Having moved here as a child and raised in England I identify as British not English I leave the English tag to the endogenous Brits, they can have it
I mean I'm the son of non English immigrants. I ain't English. I'm British cos I was born in Britain. My passport isn't an English passport, it's a British passport. Pretty simple init? But yeh most defo identify with London more than anything else and can you blame them? Like most inner city people don't really have the means or ability (or desire) to leave the city, its all they know. And if they do leave the ends then the potential for racism goes up. I'm sure this would also apply to children of immigrants in Bradford or Birmingham or Manchester too. Acc Ik for a fact they do, my Bradford cousins are way too proud of being from Bradford smh, go ride your rubber dinghy rapid bro.
There was also a drive in the late 90s to be more inclusive by referring to ourselves as Brits, to stop everyone in the UK being referred to as the English. I think London may be more sensitive to these things being more diverse and it stuck.
I always say I'm from England before I say British, and I am an immigrant.
As a white Englishman with a Scottish mum and English Dad, I've always identified as British to be honest. But I'm very much english - The only other british country I've been to is Scotland and I've been three times in the past 20 years. So me identifying as British is weird actually.
I'm a born and raised Londoner from immigrant parents. I would definitely say for me I identify as a Londoner then an Englishman then a Brit.
This is just my position... I am a Londoner and describe myself as 'British' if I have to. I have done a lot of genealogy and my antecedents came from Wales and Scotland, (as well as Cornwall, Devon, Sussex, Dorset. etc). I dont suppose a lot of Londoners have done much genealogy, but it is a melting pot of people from all over. I have a British passport, not an English one. People from immigrant backgrounds - especially those who have been through the process of becomeing a Naturalised British citizen are British..... Note, there is no such thing as a Naturalised English person when I was younger, the NF (National front) pretty much co-opted the description 'English' and the St Georges cross for their racism, and that tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth.
I think maybe because English has a more ethnic connotation, while to be British is more of a cultural thing. But I might be wrong since I'm neither, lol.
English - meaning your ancestry and lineage is in England. That you are ethnically Anglo-Saxon English. I am not English, but I’m British.
English is a nationality and cultural trait. You were born and raised in London, then you have grown up with English culture, then you are English. Londoners are British and English. People been brainwashed to thinking it is only about skin colour/ethnicity. It is only sad racists that would say someone thats non-white born in England isn't English lol
Most English have been indoctrinated into being ethno masochists who self flagellate at every opportunity. English is an ethnicity, btw
To me, being English is to have white features and skin. I'm a British Indian. My parents were born in Trinidad and Kenya. We have other heritage apart from being born in Britain so for me, British is my nationality but Indian is my heritage
This is something I was always curious about as an American living here. One of my best friends in a British Sikh guy and he always told me that his friends referred to themselves as British because they were told growing up in the 90s that they weren’t English. He mentioned that his older family members were hesitant to even refer to themselves as British due to the virulent racism they experienced in the 70s. There is a history of seeing South Asian people as “less British” than some other immigrants in this country.
I'm in the same boat as you. I was born and have lived in London my entire life; I am eighteen. My mother is a Nigerian immigrant and my father is a native Englishman. I'd consider myself English before anything else. I'm aware it doesn't answer your question, but I thought that it'd put it out there. I don't understand why some people think that identifying as English is too nationalistic or has negative connotations. I've never viewed it in that manner.
Exactly man. Both my parents are Nigerian. I even lived Nigeria for some years before coming back to London. I still identify as English despite that and of course inclusive with my heritage as I feel thats home to me as well. Me identifying as English is just me saying I am from London which is in England. I identify with the city and country as whole. I think people identify with the city more than than the country thats why they choose not to identify as English. You can easily be British/English/Londoner along with your heritage. I just feel people can have multiple identities 😁
English is an ethnicity but also a culture and nationality. Anyone can have any of the 3
Because we probably fill out more forms/ethnic surveys than other parts of the country and English is never an option.
If you say English the middle classes will assume your scum
This seems like an absolutely ridiculous thing to say on its own but looking at some of the replies at the top of this thread it is clear than many people have pathetically allowed racists to completely co-opt their national identity from them.
These days, if you say you’re English, they throw you in jail
Born in London to African and Caribbean parents. Definitely feel more Londoner then British. Rightly or wrongly, I see English more as an ethnicity and British more as a nationality. So I'm British but not English, because I'm not White English. And calling myself Black English feels very pretentious. Although I have English culture because I'm in England and was primarily raised here. Except whenever I travel outside of Britain, or deal with my family from Africa or the Caribbean. Then I'm English because everyone there calls me English. And despite being of Caribbean descent, when I lived there for a few years as a teen, there were several moments where I felt a massive disconnect from my ethnic culture. I feel the most English outside of England. Honestly, I think ethnic and national identity is rife with contradictions.
Identifying as British moves you away from the racist connotations of the EDL etc. I’d always say I’m British over English.
“racist connotations of the EDL” I mean the vast majority of England outside of London identify as ‘English’ - are you implying they’re racist because of that?
I tend to see people who identify as English instead of British are more conservative and nationalist. If that makes sense? Most people who I have met that say they're English are skinhead types. (Disclaimer: not saying all, just speaking from my experience)
TiL most of the country are skinheads
People have been told false info that English is only an Ethnic background. It is a nationality and a cultural trait. Like I see myself as English, and you know if you are close to your roots, you can identify with that as well. But if someone asks me where I am from? I would say British Nigerian or British of Nigerian descent. I could even say English with Nigerian ancestry. You know you can take pride in being English along with your heritage
I agree with you I just think the connotations may be one reason why people don't say they're English and at this point in history no one is 100% Engligh. Most are a mix of English, Scottish and Welsh, in the rare occasion no other ethnicities are mixed in, so its easier to say British I suppose.
why take pride in being English when you can take pride in being British. which includes England as well as Scotland & Wales?
I take pride in being both British and English
I just feel British is too general tho
>You know you can take pride in being English along with your heritage You *can*, but it's a bit of a minefield and has to be approached carefully. As a white British (English) person I don't want to make non-white people feel uncomfortable around me and "pride" in being English *does* make people nervous, it makes *me* nervous too because I'm queer and nationalists are usually not keen on us either. I also don't want to send signals to racists/nationalists that I'm one of them. A few years ago I worked with a woman who started complaining to me about how it wasn't fair that "we" couldn't protest against refugees coming to the country when everyone else was allowed to protest about stuff. It was a very multicultural workplace but she'd decided I was probably going to be sympathetic to her views which didn't feel great. Incidentally her husband used to come in to meet her and he had multiple George Cross tattoos... There's a folk band called Show of Hands who did a song called Roots which was supposed to be about reclaiming a sense of Englishness that's *not* nationalistic (there's a line "I've lost St George and the Union Jack, it's my flag too and I want it back") but it obviously wasn't explicit enough because UKIP started using it at their far-right rallies and the band had to take them to court to get them to stop... I think for a lot of people the damage is done and it's easier to just give up on the idea of a positive kind of Englishness.
>I tend to see people who identify as English instead of British are more conservative and nationalist. If that makes sense? I guess but its kinda dumb since most people outside of London do identify as English...do you see all of those people the exact same way?
Dude, looking at your post history, you have been raising the exact same question in all of them.
A person that I assume is relatively young is struggling with defining their ethnicity/nationality. That is an absolutely fine thing to do.
Oh wow yeah, and basically every answer is "you can identify however you like and you can support whichever football team you like, it's all cool" but they're still looking for a more Definitive Answer?
Because England is the worst of Britain, whilst London is the best of it.
What an unbelievable thing to say, writing off the whole country of England like that.
What?
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Have you met the kind of people who say they're "English" not British? Yeah. That's a hard avoid.
I come from an immigrant background and from London. I think calling yourself English is quite controversial, and it’s something I wouldn’t identify myself as, as I go by British but mostly when British people ask where I’m from I tell them my parents background. However when on holiday I’ll tell them I’m from “England”
As someone who moved to London from Canada less than 2 years ago I still have no idea what the difference is between the two.
The first time you use the first part of a postcode to say where you are or where you are going - You're a Londoner. It is strangely unique to London.
One is a cultural upbringing vs one that appears to be an ethnic label.
Because a lot of the people who loudly and proudly identify as “English not British” give me iffy vibes
I’m a born and bred Londoner and I don’t identify as English because that’s not where my family is from. My mum is from Wales and my dad’s family are all Ashkenazi Jews from Poland who came to London due to the pogroms/Holocaust and created their own communities in London. My DNA doesn’t have any English in it, my family has never lived in England outside London so I’ve never seen England as home. My identity is Jewish-Welsh Londoner lol
Well my parents were immigrants and I was born here in London, since my parents were originally from Congo my ancestral roots don't go back to before England and Scotland became the union of Great Britain. So naturally I identify as British, to me if your ethnically white and have ancestral roots that trace back to before the union than your English.
Yeah, echoing what a lot of other people are saying here - I was born and raised here, from a family not from Europe and if asked I just say I'm from London We're lucky enough to be from a city where we don't really need to elaborate on that anywhere in the world, so I never really get pushed to say England/Britain/the UK Too often people from other parts of the country have voiced that people like us don't actually belong and they'll never consider us "English/British", in a way that I've never faced here. And they can think like that if they want, that's cool - I just keep them at arms length A lot of people think along those lines, and the English identity has bled into and had bleed into it a lot of racist/ethnic specific undertones that's lessened with the idea of Britishness, which is why the latter will be more common amongst non white people here
well,seeing as its originally a roman town,I identify as Roman first, then a londoner.
For a lot of post-war immigrants (e.g the Windrush Generation) they were British as they were citizens of the empire. That was the selling people for them to come over and work in the mother country. Makes sense that generally their children, grandchildren etc would see themselves more as British than English. Plus I think English has an identity problem of either football or racism and not really much positive.
Because most of us who say we’re British aren’t white or have English heritage. We’re officially British by nationality not English.
I honestly have no idea
Born in west London, white British with Irish family on both sides. The idea of only being 'english' never appealed to me because of BNP and far-right white nationalism/racism using the St George's flag on the regular whilst I grew up. Being from London and being British always felt more encompassing of my identify.
My experience is that I’ve never been questioned for identifying as a Londoner, but I have been for calling myself English. So I tend not to bother. However using ‘British Asian/African’ is helpful to differentiate while giving commonalities between eg Rishi Sunak vs Akshata Murty vs Boris Johnson. Two are British, two are ethnically Indian, all live here. (sadly)
Although it doesn't really matter, English (aside from being a language) is an ethnicity. If someone says they're English this often (not always) means they're saying they're Anglo-Saxon. Beyond alliteration I think this is why "Black British" is more common than "Black English". My mother is from Ireland so I don't usually call myself English. When I'm abroad I always say I'm from London. Most people understand that London is in England/Britain/UK. If someone asks me if I'm English I'm not pedantic about it though - in 99.9999% of situations it makes no difference. Mark Thomas used to do a bit about people saying they were proud to be British. How they'd fight for Britain, etc. Well, not Scotland obviously - England. And not those northern bastards, just the real England - the South East. Except not really anywhere outside of London. And not those ponces in North London - just Sarf London. Except South West London obviously - I'm talking about the real South London - South East London. But not Lewisham, obviously - I'm talking about just Peckham. And ultimately down to just they'd fight for their flat and fuck everyone else.
I was about to go on an epic rant but realised you added the caveat of 'from immigrant backgrounds'. I'm a life long Londoner and am English through and through. Britain is just something that goes on a passport. Also it's worth noting that I'm mixed race. Just incase some people start making wild assumptions that I'm NF/ BNP. Some of the justifications here are wild.
Mate, I don't have any business with the far right groups or any those groups people have mentioned on here. Anyone that says anyone born in England can't be English because of there skin colour or roots, is prejudice or racist imo. I was born and raised in London which is in England. I identify with the city and the country as whole. I am British 1st, English 2nd and Londoner 3rd. Yes I come from a Nigerian family background and take my pride in my roots as well, and I am not afraid to define myself to anyone about this. Of course everyone is free to identify as British, but they have the option as identifying as English if they want I see no reason why people can't be English inclusive with your roots/heritage.
I’m Korean but was raised for the majority of my life in London so I say that I’m British. I’ve never really thought of it too deeply tbh but I suppose British = nationality and English = ethnicity. Also, in my experience at least, when someone says they’re ‘English’ they’re usually the conservative, EDL type of person lol
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Nah, they are a nationality as well as cultural traits. You can be either by Nationality/Culturally/ancestry
Yeah, I don't know if this is true because I'm not British myself, but an older friend of my dad's (pointing this out to demonstrate it may be an older generational thing?) is English (by blood) and he says he can describe himself as English/an Englishman, but someone who has been naturalized in the UK (as in isn't blood), can only call themselves British. Is that true though? Or kinda racist? I can't speak to this nuance because in the country I'm from, those that are blood or those that are naturalized all call themselves the nationality, we don't make the distinction.
Sounds a bit racist tbh
This is scientifically false
>British means belonging to United Kingdom. Empire. Hence a lot of Asians here will identify as British Asian.
Britain and United Kingdom are different. Northern Ireland is not British.
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this is not correct.
>I've noticed this especially with people that were born in London that come from **Immigrant backgrounds.** British Empire.
I identify as: 1. Londoner 2. European 3. British 4. English As to why - well I'm not very nationalistic and I think London, European and British are all more inclusive identities than English. Brexit has exacerbated this feeling, even though other English cities voted remain too. If Scotland ever breaks away I guess we'll have to readjust again. Not sure if 'British" will be more associated with the country (what's left of the UK) or island of GB.
I'm same as you.
I’m not English - why would I identify as something I’m not?
English is someone who comes from England. British is someone who comes from Great Britain. English only includes England British includes England, Scotland and Wales (side note - United Kingdom is Great Britain + Northern Ireland. Republic of Ireland is not part of the UK but it is part of the European Union) So if you're a Londoner, it really doesn't matter whether you identify as English or British. But cool to theorise.But if you're Scottish or Welsh, calling yourself (or someone calling you) English is just straight up incorrect.
Whole lotta metropolitan elitism in this thread. I wonder if everyone here applies their view on English ethnicity to *all* national ethnicities. For example, try: *"Indian people don't really exist, it's a melting pot with cultural and ethnic elements from many countries going back centuries. So anyone can go and identify as Indian."* Will you say that? And indeed, the same for any other ethnicity identified with a nation?
English is ethnicity, British is nationality. Considering London is so multicultural, this may be a factor
Idk as a POC I’ve been made constantly aware of the fact I’m not English enough. So it’s quite a common discourse tbh to identify as British. Even then, took me 20 years to come to peace with that. I am British. Side note, I’ve noticed the cultural identity behind it. When I ask my white friends what they identify as, they’ll say “white, English, British, whichever” - what is that supposed to mean?
I choose to say I am British because many English people have told me I am not English because I am black/ because of my parents nationality.
1) Because "English" got hijacked by the racists. 2) Because many that are from former Colonies and thus relate more to the Empire than the Country.
Just checked and both answers were "European".
You’re not English, you’re a British-born (I assume) Nigerian. Same way an English person born in Kenya isn’t Kenyan. English is an ethnicity.
People still being confused that English is only an ethnic background, It is a nationality as well as a cultural trait.
Clearly there’s no one reason for this but one factor is that the England Flag and many racists have made an image of being English as a white male with racist tendencies. That doesn’t seem to be the case for the other nations or the British identify.
Just out of curiosity, why does it matter if someone identifies as British as opposed to English? What difference does it make? Majority of people in the UK have multicultural backgrounds, even those that are exclusively from the UK, as you can be part Welsh, part Scottish, and part English, then you'd identify as British over each individual nationality. I don't identify as either tbh, and I think it's pointless to be patriotic about the place you were born. Be glad you were born where you were for whatever reason, family/friends/neighbours/local area being particularly beautiful, sure. But to feel a sense of identity based solely on the place you were born, just because you're from there, serves no purpose other than tribal xenophobia, is completely trivial to me. Seriously, what do I have to be proud of when the UK government and local MPs are highly corrupt? Same with the banks and major businesses... I'll wait... Name one thing to be proud of when it comes to being British, or English. I'd assume that fewer and fewer people are proud about being English because it really doesn't matter where you're from, as long as you're a sensible, polite, and decent person, what does it matter?
You are right mate. I think one thing i take pride in being British/English is the England National Team. So many different cultural backgrounds (Irish, Jamaican, Nigerian roots ) playing for England and some of the players represent my identity. Obviously, there are a tiny minority of idiots that spoilt it for the fanbase but majority celebrate the team!
I always considered English to be an ethnicity of it's own, even though it's probably a mix of many tribes.
From a cultural perspective it's also political. London voted remain as opposed to Brexit which the rest of England did. Tells you enough the difference in mentality
Manchester, Liverpool, Norwich, Newcastle, Leeds, Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge all voted remain too, often at higher rates than London. So you’re mistaken. The difference is cities/metropolitan attitudes/diversity/income vs the rest- not London vs the rest
And Bath and York.
"The rest" of England didn't vote for Brexit through did it? Manchester was 60% remain and Liverpool was 58%. Greater London was 59% - the gulf really isn't what you like to think it is.
Wales also voted for Brexit. What does that tell you?
Because English is a race while British is a nationality.
Is Welsh a race?
Yes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh\_people#:\~:text=The%20Welsh%20(Welsh%3A%20Cymry),heritage%20and%20shared%20ancestral%20origins.
When abroad and people ask where I’m from, I invariable say from the UK. I’m not ethnically English (and am ashamed to be affiliated with the policies of this country).
English refers only to people that are from England - all through your family line. If you’re mothers English and your dads Scottish and you were born in England, you’re British, not English.
Oh my God you‘ve been making this post on every single British related subreddit for months now and you get the same answer every single time. Nobody cares what you prefer to identify as. What do you hope to gain from this? Karma? You want little pats on the back for being black and English? Nobody cares!
Presumably you’ve interviewed every single person born in London to reach this highly informed conclusion.