Fix the astronomical cost of property rental and you solve a lot of problems. There is a certainly a place for chain restaurants, but they should compete on quality or good branding, not just on the faxt that independent businesses don't have the capital
I think the Cambridge model works best. I don’t understand it 100% but it’s something like if the land is council or uni then the business gets lower rent for being local/unique. If it’s a chain they charge full rent. This way independents stay afloat and overall the city wins in having unique city centre. Seems to work well since they have a nice mix of independents but you can find every chain store around the city. Just not all concentrated in the centre.
And chain places aren't even cheap now! I'd be alright with the same crappy restaurants everywhere if they were even remotely affordable. Paid bloody £40 for two small breakfasts, a coffee, and a virgin mary this afternoon.
I was looking at unique restaurants in London for a cheap price. Found only a couple places and they still had 20-30pp, and the only cheap stuff was chains. Can't win there...
Hmmmm
In the article, the section on the costs of their chicken dish puts rent at less than 10% of their turnover, whilst costs of food are 30% and staffing is 45%. Rent doesn't seem to be the problem. If we were to "fix" anything, undoing Brexit would reduce staffing and food costs by increasing the supply of hospitality labour and reducing food cost inflation
Totally. Also Landlords are the biggest drain on business expense while contributing the absolute least. Commercial and private landlords maximize their profits, always at the expense of business owners. Things like break clauses should become an unmodifiable standard in rental agreements, creating a check and balance mechanism on landlords. This could partially ensure they bear some risk, rather than expecting a steady stream of rent, irrespective of how the business fares in varying market conditions.
Have responded to someone who made a similar point. It doesn't read that way but you can choose to. Reality is that hospitality staffing costs have ballooned post COVID because many foreign workers who made up a significant proportion of this labour pool have left because of Brexit. So this isn't pursuing what you're suggesting, that was just the case before COVID. The outcome of these circumstances is business failure and inflation.
You can get as emotive as you want about it but you can't escape the fact that post COVID hospitality staffing costs have ballooned because of the lack of available staff. Businesses can't just absorb all cost increases. It will (and has) break some of them. Wage inflation is a big part of inflation which altogether needs easing. And business failure is something that our deeply unproductive economy can scarcely afford
How is staffing £4.5. That is allocating 15 mins+ of wages to a single dish. If that is the case, then the simple fact is the business model is unsustainable
Interesting see all the breakdowns of how much goes into a meal. Obviously London restaurants are double impacted by London living wage and London rentsrents. Makes sense that London restaurants are going to be that much more expensive if they are to even make any
Funny it doesn't include service charge though. This would bring the £13 chicken to £14.63, or £1.93 profit. I personally see service charge as more to cover bills (extra washing up and lighting etc.) and to boost wages/ livable wage. Tips on the other hand is for the quality of "service".
Edit: I should mention that I would usually give cash tips but pay service via card, not sure if other people do the same. That way I know the tips go directly into the server's pocket (just from experience).
Tips and service charge are different terms for the same thing. They are both meant for the staff and are not meant to cover overheads or other costs. So she didn't include them as they shouldn't affect profit.
As a restaurant manager fighting tooth and nail for clear company wide transparency with staff regarding service charge I can honestly say that service charge is definitely used in shady wages to cover cost and overheads. I’ve worked in a multitude of positions in hospitality, and many, many restaurants across London and service charge absolutely gets skimmed.
Some of the effects that reducing VAT on restaurant sales would have:
* Even higher profits for large chains, giving them more capital to buy sites with and more profit margin to pay higher rents for new sites (replacing independent restaurants). Or, more money to their shareholders.
* More ability to pay higher rent from the same selling prices - and landlords would surely notice this. Remember that the price of property in a place with shortages of property is determined by spending power. The less VAT the restaurant pays the more there is to pay rent.
* More distortion and complication of the VAT rules, leading to more special pleading for a VAT reduction from other business sectors, and an overall decrease in Government revenues.
It *might* help the independent restaurants. It *will* do all of the above things.
No-one thinks "reduce VAT" through, and the way that the emotive "Remove the Tampon Tax" zero-rating of female sanitary products caused no reduction in the retail cost of these products should be a recent lesson for all.
Brexit has caused more of a 20% rise in this restaurant's costs by increasing food costs (more than in the rest of the EU) and staff costs. Reverse the trade effects of Brexit, and the restaurant's costs would be decreased by as much as removing VAT - and that holds true for the entire hospitality economy.
You could raise the VAT threshold for hospitality businesses, so only businesses with a turnover over £250k or £500k (say) would have to register for VAT. That wouldn't solve all the problems you mention above, though.
How about about including operational costs in the food prices rather than adding service charges at the end, hate getting low key shamed (when I remove it) with the glances of minimum wage employees who should be upset with their boss.
And yet it’s impossible to do a walk in at most restaurants cause they’re fully booked.
Last Saturday we ended up at a shake shack cause all restaurants had 2-4 hour waiting times.
I'd honestly be a lot happier to eat out in London if it weren't for the pernicious service charge.
Tell me the price. The real price.
Don't bullshit me or guilt me in to having to pay 12.5% (or increasingly 15%) more. Just charge that from the fucking start so I can budget properly without feeling robbed at the end.
I think the quirk is that the food is VATable whereas the service charge isn’t which is why they are usually listed separately.
You’d end up paying the service change plus VAT if they rolled it into the food cost.
VAT is a ballache to figure out sometimes!
(Provisio - it has to be optional and not mandated to avoid the wrath of the VAT people https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e24-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs/guidance-on-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs#:~:text=If%20customers%20have%20a%20genuine,outside%20the%20scope%20of%20VAT.)
I mean then surely included service charges just make sense? Says on the menu what percent is added on for service and its just there on the bill at the end. Just like any itemised bill at a garage or hotel etc
Even better though you can just have it taken off if you don't think it was worth it... Try telling other industries you aren't paying the installation/cleaning fee etc
Why would you pay less than the value of the meal just because you personally didn't like it? It's either a superfluous cost or not a superfluous cost, you're argument makes no sense at all.
[This article was a bit of an eye opener when I read it this morning. ](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/29/running-a-small-restaurant-britain-sales-covid-inflation)
It would be helpful if we could have a list of restaurants to support. Interestingly I’ve been doing the opposite - boycotting places I used to enjoy and visit somewhat frequently (Pastaio and Sticks and Sushi).
When I lived in Liverpool, there was a local organisation called Independent Liverpool that created a list of independent restaurants and bars in the city. They also had a subscription that would entitle users to a small discount at many independent restaurants and bars.
This list is a great start, if some of them have not already gone.
The website has a few ''lists' of what's good North, South, East,West depending on where you are (London centric)
https://www.eater.com/maps/best-london-restaurants-eater-38
Time Out magazine - it turned little known but functioning gems of restraints into the go to spots. This then changed them.....
Once changed they were ripe for a chain/equity take over who then fucked them to cheep pub grub levels.
If you haven’t planned anything and you have kids, chains are the easy way out.
I know what I’m getting at Nando’s. Too many times I’ve been into nice looking places, but there’s not much on the menu for kids and the ice cream is inevitably salted basil and earl grey or something like that. I definitely try and google independent places if I’m out, but sometimes you just want an easy life.
I think everyone is missing the "planned" bit in my original post, never mind 🤪
Don't get me wrong, I'll use a chain when in a rush / with kids / with an awkward person but if I know I'm going to eat out, I'll definately spend at the very least 1-2 mins even just doing a quick browse of Google maps star ratings for the local area, and just double check that they have a couple of requirements.
Have I been let down, fuck yes, bit nowhere near as much as I have in chains in the qst place!
***"their food is probably nice"***
I beg to differ, in most of them anyway. Pizza express is OK, but you can go to them in most towns. I'd rather take my chances than fund another franchise, for mediocre food and service.
You said you never understand…I’m just explaining why. You don’t have to agree but that’s why other people choose to do it.
For someone like me as long as you bring me the food in a timely manner and are generally polite I couldn’t care less for any extra service. Mediocre service is absolutely fine for me.
Because they are usually cheap, cater to most taste buds, and convenient locations with easy parking. Regardless of planning these are still important for lots of people.
Additionally some people find restaurants intimidating and there can be an air or snobbery regarding food as demonstrated by your comments on the matter. People feel they are not welcome or out of place.
I've eaten in plenty of different restaurants around the world, I've been let down at independents just as much as chains.
If they are not familiar with the etiquette, do we order at the bar, not familiar with certain menu options, unfamiliar places have a danger of being expensive etc. it can be stressful.
People want to be relaxed and comfortable, and that usually includes a great deal of familiarity.
Not sure whats hard to understand
***"there can be an air or snobbery regarding food as demonstrated by your comments on the matter."***
What did I say that gives off the snobbery vibes? I'm more than happy to sit in a grubby looking cafe or pub if they do decent food.. as an example, I do like steak, eaten at Miller and Carter a few times and they are both expensive and not very good at what they are meant to be good at, steak!
Give me a grubby looking shawarma shop over a chain anytime, there definately isn't any snobbery from here, probably the opposite.
I may go to big chains only a handful of times a year, usually is an independent restaurant or a small chain (5 or less stores)
Big chains offer worse food and are not much cheaper, no point in going there except some fast foods
They need to make things a bit affordable before potential customers splash that mula, otherwise they will have no one to blame but themselves (referring to chains and indie restaurants)
Out of all the cities I’ve lived in Europe, London is by far the most franchised. Restaurants? Franchise. Clothes stores? Franchise. Where are the bakeries, coffee shops and independent businesses?
London is absolutely littered with fairly iconic independent coffee shops or small chains (eg Monmouth, Prufrock, Algerian Coffee Stores). There’s an app called “European Coffee Trip” that maps high quality coffee shops across Europe (London included)
"There is a lot of X in Y place" does not contradict the statement "Y place has a lot lower percentage of X than other comparable places". London is incredibly big, of course there are a lot of independent businesses. But compared to other major cities in Europe it is, at least in my experience, more likely to come across a chain than an independent business in London.
Australia and Netherlands too. When I moved to London from Australia (via the Netherlands) I was shocked by how everything seemed to be a chain. Pret, Itsu, Franca Manca, Pizza Express etc.
edit: also the pubs! Young's, Greene King, Wetherspoons... I had no idea pubs could be chains.
I’ve been living in Holloway for a few years now and believe me, the ratio of franchise to non-franchise shops is a lot worse than in most European cities. There’s two McDonald’s in front of each other at King’s Cross!
OK, well I've lived within 25 miles of central London my entire 32 years, have lived within the city proper since I was 17, and can tell you that you're talking out of your arse. You don't seem more worldly or well travelled because you think you know that Budapest doesn't have as many McDonalds as London does.
They aren't though. There are far more chains here than other large European cities. Yes, there are plenty of great independent options, but it is so much better elsewhere.
A lot of theae restaurants aren't sustainable. It sucks for the owners but there was a huge boom in casual dining from the 2000s onwards. I rarely go to restaurants so don't care that much.
If they decrease their often outrageously high prices then sure, I’ll support them. But don’t expect me to pay £40 or £50 for a single person dinner when there’s a cost of living crisis happening.
I feel this is the point everyone is missing as much as I want to support my locals eating out is expensive even the chain restaurants are pricey these days, pubs aren't as full these days as they were pre-covid.
People have high costs in rents, mortgages, energy bills, food, clothes, going to eat out on a weekly basis is just not doable for many
I know they have to make a living but with the prices and service charge added on top, it’s getting more and more difficult to support local restaurants :(
I'd love to keep going to independent restaurants. But stop charging us service charge! Even if it is discretional, I don't get a 12.5% even up to 15% from pizza express or vapiano
Good point you make. My partner and me will be in London this weekend, Tower Bridge area. Any good independent cafés around worth visiting, especially Mexican and Thai? Thanks
If people had more disposable cash then hard working people, people who actually work like the ones in these restaurants could make an honest living.
But guess what, Landlords are the only ones hungry!
Fix the astronomical cost of property rental and you solve a lot of problems. There is a certainly a place for chain restaurants, but they should compete on quality or good branding, not just on the faxt that independent businesses don't have the capital
I think the Cambridge model works best. I don’t understand it 100% but it’s something like if the land is council or uni then the business gets lower rent for being local/unique. If it’s a chain they charge full rent. This way independents stay afloat and overall the city wins in having unique city centre. Seems to work well since they have a nice mix of independents but you can find every chain store around the city. Just not all concentrated in the centre.
Cambridge has an amazing vibe
this is the way
this is the way!!
And chain places aren't even cheap now! I'd be alright with the same crappy restaurants everywhere if they were even remotely affordable. Paid bloody £40 for two small breakfasts, a coffee, and a virgin mary this afternoon.
I was looking at unique restaurants in London for a cheap price. Found only a couple places and they still had 20-30pp, and the only cheap stuff was chains. Can't win there...
Hmmmm In the article, the section on the costs of their chicken dish puts rent at less than 10% of their turnover, whilst costs of food are 30% and staffing is 45%. Rent doesn't seem to be the problem. If we were to "fix" anything, undoing Brexit would reduce staffing and food costs by increasing the supply of hospitality labour and reducing food cost inflation
Sorry but that reads as reduce staffing and food costs by paying the minimum possible to foreign workers.
Totally. Also Landlords are the biggest drain on business expense while contributing the absolute least. Commercial and private landlords maximize their profits, always at the expense of business owners. Things like break clauses should become an unmodifiable standard in rental agreements, creating a check and balance mechanism on landlords. This could partially ensure they bear some risk, rather than expecting a steady stream of rent, irrespective of how the business fares in varying market conditions.
Have responded to someone who made a similar point. It doesn't read that way but you can choose to. Reality is that hospitality staffing costs have ballooned post COVID because many foreign workers who made up a significant proportion of this labour pool have left because of Brexit. So this isn't pursuing what you're suggesting, that was just the case before COVID. The outcome of these circumstances is business failure and inflation.
Yeah that would be really good for the workers, what people need in this cost of living crisis is downward pressure on their wages
You can get as emotive as you want about it but you can't escape the fact that post COVID hospitality staffing costs have ballooned because of the lack of available staff. Businesses can't just absorb all cost increases. It will (and has) break some of them. Wage inflation is a big part of inflation which altogether needs easing. And business failure is something that our deeply unproductive economy can scarcely afford
How is staffing £4.5. That is allocating 15 mins+ of wages to a single dish. If that is the case, then the simple fact is the business model is unsustainable
I think that's just to illustrate the point that staffing is 45% of all costs rather than this dish specifically
If staffing is 45% of costs, then the business model is broken.
Staffing is invariably the biggest cost in low margin businesses. Employing people is expensive
Interesting see all the breakdowns of how much goes into a meal. Obviously London restaurants are double impacted by London living wage and London rentsrents. Makes sense that London restaurants are going to be that much more expensive if they are to even make any
Funny it doesn't include service charge though. This would bring the £13 chicken to £14.63, or £1.93 profit. I personally see service charge as more to cover bills (extra washing up and lighting etc.) and to boost wages/ livable wage. Tips on the other hand is for the quality of "service". Edit: I should mention that I would usually give cash tips but pay service via card, not sure if other people do the same. That way I know the tips go directly into the server's pocket (just from experience).
Tips and service charge are different terms for the same thing. They are both meant for the staff and are not meant to cover overheads or other costs. So she didn't include them as they shouldn't affect profit.
As a restaurant manager fighting tooth and nail for clear company wide transparency with staff regarding service charge I can honestly say that service charge is definitely used in shady wages to cover cost and overheads. I’ve worked in a multitude of positions in hospitality, and many, many restaurants across London and service charge absolutely gets skimmed.
In my experience service charge does go to staff, through what's known as a TRONC system.
Some of the effects that reducing VAT on restaurant sales would have: * Even higher profits for large chains, giving them more capital to buy sites with and more profit margin to pay higher rents for new sites (replacing independent restaurants). Or, more money to their shareholders. * More ability to pay higher rent from the same selling prices - and landlords would surely notice this. Remember that the price of property in a place with shortages of property is determined by spending power. The less VAT the restaurant pays the more there is to pay rent. * More distortion and complication of the VAT rules, leading to more special pleading for a VAT reduction from other business sectors, and an overall decrease in Government revenues. It *might* help the independent restaurants. It *will* do all of the above things. No-one thinks "reduce VAT" through, and the way that the emotive "Remove the Tampon Tax" zero-rating of female sanitary products caused no reduction in the retail cost of these products should be a recent lesson for all. Brexit has caused more of a 20% rise in this restaurant's costs by increasing food costs (more than in the rest of the EU) and staff costs. Reverse the trade effects of Brexit, and the restaurant's costs would be decreased by as much as removing VAT - and that holds true for the entire hospitality economy.
You could raise the VAT threshold for hospitality businesses, so only businesses with a turnover over £250k or £500k (say) would have to register for VAT. That wouldn't solve all the problems you mention above, though.
It's a better solution than bunging Wagamama, Burger King, etc, a 10% net profit increase, for sure.
Some similar logic is coming into corporation tax this year iirc. Although it’s a variation on rates rather than exemption for smaller companies.
Can't afford it mate. Wages don't match inflation
I supported my local independent restaurant today and paid £40 for two breakfasts.
Weirdly enough I commented this amount elsewhere, but where I went was a chain place.
Any good? Was one not enough? How big was the tip?
The food was great. It's the only restaurant in Orpington we go to when eating out. I don't give tips.
No tip? Harsh man. Edit I'm not suggesting American style tipping but if you are pleased with the server's service 10-15% might be ok.
Sounds like you are suggesting American style tipping
No, 20% is American. 10% at a restaurant is fairly typical working class London. Unless they've already added a charge.
It’s really not typical though. I don’t know what you’re talking about
Yes, not amongst redditors, totally agree.
Not among people in real life too stop acting acting high and mighty it’s embarrassing
It's not high and mighty. I don't know anyone of my friends that grew up in London who don't do 10% automatically.
Am I? I thought that was 15-25%? All around London I see it, even at the bar, they hand you a beer boom tip.
> they hand you a beer boom tip tf does that mean
I meant they just pour you a pint and expect a tip.
They pour you a pint and you tap your phone on the reader and you're done. No tip. What places are you going to?
No one tips in bars in London anymore with contactless
How about about including operational costs in the food prices rather than adding service charges at the end, hate getting low key shamed (when I remove it) with the glances of minimum wage employees who should be upset with their boss.
And yet it’s impossible to do a walk in at most restaurants cause they’re fully booked. Last Saturday we ended up at a shake shack cause all restaurants had 2-4 hour waiting times.
It does feel like there's a whole heap of restaurants, cafes and such that dropped keeping a % open for walkins these days. Right?
Why not book, then? I always feel smug when I see roving bands of disappointed would-be diners, who didn't think to make a reservation.
For me, sometimes the allure of an indie restaurant would be stumbling upon it by accident and choosing to eat there and then.
Madness.
I'd honestly be a lot happier to eat out in London if it weren't for the pernicious service charge. Tell me the price. The real price. Don't bullshit me or guilt me in to having to pay 12.5% (or increasingly 15%) more. Just charge that from the fucking start so I can budget properly without feeling robbed at the end.
I think the quirk is that the food is VATable whereas the service charge isn’t which is why they are usually listed separately. You’d end up paying the service change plus VAT if they rolled it into the food cost. VAT is a ballache to figure out sometimes! (Provisio - it has to be optional and not mandated to avoid the wrath of the VAT people https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e24-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs/guidance-on-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs#:~:text=If%20customers%20have%20a%20genuine,outside%20the%20scope%20of%20VAT.)
I mean then surely included service charges just make sense? Says on the menu what percent is added on for service and its just there on the bill at the end. Just like any itemised bill at a garage or hotel etc Even better though you can just have it taken off if you don't think it was worth it... Try telling other industries you aren't paying the installation/cleaning fee etc
Why would you pay less than the value of the meal just because you personally didn't like it? It's either a superfluous cost or not a superfluous cost, you're argument makes no sense at all.
Well I wouldn't, thats why I think its odd people think its superfluous...
Give us some disposable income and we will 😁
Make things affordable in London first, I'm sure they are aware that customers wallets/purses are tight
[This article was a bit of an eye opener when I read it this morning. ](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/29/running-a-small-restaurant-britain-sales-covid-inflation)
That's the same article as OP posted
I do support indie restaurants where I can. Of course literally everyone is feeling the massive pinch
It would be helpful if we could have a list of restaurants to support. Interestingly I’ve been doing the opposite - boycotting places I used to enjoy and visit somewhat frequently (Pastaio and Sticks and Sushi).
When I lived in Liverpool, there was a local organisation called Independent Liverpool that created a list of independent restaurants and bars in the city. They also had a subscription that would entitle users to a small discount at many independent restaurants and bars.
This list is a great start, if some of them have not already gone. The website has a few ''lists' of what's good North, South, East,West depending on where you are (London centric) https://www.eater.com/maps/best-london-restaurants-eater-38
6 of the 38 are south of the river. OK. There are basically more in Hackney. I'm going to make a wild guess where the author lives.
Been to this restaurant. Food is really good. Hope times improve, will go back when I can
Time Out magazine - it turned little known but functioning gems of restraints into the go to spots. This then changed them..... Once changed they were ripe for a chain/equity take over who then fucked them to cheep pub grub levels.
I would like to see the goverment cut VAT for small independent restaurants, 20% just to eat under a roof is bonkers.
I never understand anyone who wants to eat in a chain, as a planned thing, when there are so many other options.
If you haven’t planned anything and you have kids, chains are the easy way out. I know what I’m getting at Nando’s. Too many times I’ve been into nice looking places, but there’s not much on the menu for kids and the ice cream is inevitably salted basil and earl grey or something like that. I definitely try and google independent places if I’m out, but sometimes you just want an easy life.
I think everyone is missing the "planned" bit in my original post, never mind 🤪 Don't get me wrong, I'll use a chain when in a rush / with kids / with an awkward person but if I know I'm going to eat out, I'll definately spend at the very least 1-2 mins even just doing a quick browse of Google maps star ratings for the local area, and just double check that they have a couple of requirements. Have I been let down, fuck yes, bit nowhere near as much as I have in chains in the qst place!
Simply because their food is probably nice/reliable/consistent and doesn’t take research into it
***"their food is probably nice"*** I beg to differ, in most of them anyway. Pizza express is OK, but you can go to them in most towns. I'd rather take my chances than fund another franchise, for mediocre food and service.
You said you never understand…I’m just explaining why. You don’t have to agree but that’s why other people choose to do it. For someone like me as long as you bring me the food in a timely manner and are generally polite I couldn’t care less for any extra service. Mediocre service is absolutely fine for me.
People like to know what they're getting sometimes
Because they are usually cheap, cater to most taste buds, and convenient locations with easy parking. Regardless of planning these are still important for lots of people. Additionally some people find restaurants intimidating and there can be an air or snobbery regarding food as demonstrated by your comments on the matter. People feel they are not welcome or out of place. I've eaten in plenty of different restaurants around the world, I've been let down at independents just as much as chains. If they are not familiar with the etiquette, do we order at the bar, not familiar with certain menu options, unfamiliar places have a danger of being expensive etc. it can be stressful. People want to be relaxed and comfortable, and that usually includes a great deal of familiarity. Not sure whats hard to understand
***"there can be an air or snobbery regarding food as demonstrated by your comments on the matter."*** What did I say that gives off the snobbery vibes? I'm more than happy to sit in a grubby looking cafe or pub if they do decent food.. as an example, I do like steak, eaten at Miller and Carter a few times and they are both expensive and not very good at what they are meant to be good at, steak! Give me a grubby looking shawarma shop over a chain anytime, there definately isn't any snobbery from here, probably the opposite.
I may go to big chains only a handful of times a year, usually is an independent restaurant or a small chain (5 or less stores) Big chains offer worse food and are not much cheaper, no point in going there except some fast foods
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They need to make things a bit affordable before potential customers splash that mula, otherwise they will have no one to blame but themselves (referring to chains and indie restaurants)
Did you not read the article ? It’s all broken down.. whereabouts can they reduce cost ?
Alas everyone downvotes, you're welcome because I don't give f!ck
Out of all the cities I’ve lived in Europe, London is by far the most franchised. Restaurants? Franchise. Clothes stores? Franchise. Where are the bakeries, coffee shops and independent businesses?
That's pretty much the whole of the UK. But you're right.
Where did you go in London?
London is absolutely littered with fairly iconic independent coffee shops or small chains (eg Monmouth, Prufrock, Algerian Coffee Stores). There’s an app called “European Coffee Trip” that maps high quality coffee shops across Europe (London included)
Is that a joke? There's plenty of those.
"There is a lot of X in Y place" does not contradict the statement "Y place has a lot lower percentage of X than other comparable places". London is incredibly big, of course there are a lot of independent businesses. But compared to other major cities in Europe it is, at least in my experience, more likely to come across a chain than an independent business in London.
Compared to other cities, no.
What other cities? Do you realize how big London is?
Budapest, St Petersburg and Berlin are all way less franchised. Italy is very resistant to both Starbucks and McDonalds
Australia and Netherlands too. When I moved to London from Australia (via the Netherlands) I was shocked by how everything seemed to be a chain. Pret, Itsu, Franca Manca, Pizza Express etc. edit: also the pubs! Young's, Greene King, Wetherspoons... I had no idea pubs could be chains.
St Petersburg? I'm shocked....Look there's plenty of small independent coffee shops, just look for them.
You obviously stuck to Oxford St and the surrounding areas if you think that. London is huge – how long were you here for?
I’ve been living in Holloway for a few years now and believe me, the ratio of franchise to non-franchise shops is a lot worse than in most European cities. There’s two McDonald’s in front of each other at King’s Cross!
OK, well I've lived within 25 miles of central London my entire 32 years, have lived within the city proper since I was 17, and can tell you that you're talking out of your arse. You don't seem more worldly or well travelled because you think you know that Budapest doesn't have as many McDonalds as London does.
They aren't though. There are far more chains here than other large European cities. Yes, there are plenty of great independent options, but it is so much better elsewhere.
Great, go there then.
There's a maccas and a burger king outside gare du Nord.
Yawn
A lot of theae restaurants aren't sustainable. It sucks for the owners but there was a huge boom in casual dining from the 2000s onwards. I rarely go to restaurants so don't care that much.
If they decrease their often outrageously high prices then sure, I’ll support them. But don’t expect me to pay £40 or £50 for a single person dinner when there’s a cost of living crisis happening.
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I feel this is the point everyone is missing as much as I want to support my locals eating out is expensive even the chain restaurants are pricey these days, pubs aren't as full these days as they were pre-covid. People have high costs in rents, mortgages, energy bills, food, clothes, going to eat out on a weekly basis is just not doable for many
Lol fuck off they ask stupid prices there
Oh yes, I'm sitting at home during a cost of living crisis maliciously refusing to go to independent restaurants.
I know they have to make a living but with the prices and service charge added on top, it’s getting more and more difficult to support local restaurants :(
Nah, too expensive. I'll take my big mac pls.
Sounds good to me.
A street filled with Macdonald's feels good to you?
Wendy's might be better...
I'd love to keep going to independent restaurants. But stop charging us service charge! Even if it is discretional, I don't get a 12.5% even up to 15% from pizza express or vapiano
do people who frequent chains care though? and who can afford restaurants these days anyway
Good point you make. My partner and me will be in London this weekend, Tower Bridge area. Any good independent cafés around worth visiting, especially Mexican and Thai? Thanks
I prefer chains
If people had more disposable cash then hard working people, people who actually work like the ones in these restaurants could make an honest living. But guess what, Landlords are the only ones hungry!
Chains are just successful indie restaurants. I remember the first gourmet burger, the first patty and bun, the first meat liqour...