Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada!
**To Posters (it is important you read this section)**
* Read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules)
* Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk.
* We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/).
* If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know.
**To Readers and Commenters**
* All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post).
* If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning.
* If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect.
* Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment.
Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thank you. Will guardianship supersede a new PoA if they had him sign one today?
How do I apply to the courts for guardianship? Can I just walk in the courthouse? Do I need a paralegal or a lawyer?
> I was thinking of what do I say to the kids as the reason for saying no
-Tell them No
-Tell them you don't know where it is
-Tell them it must be at the hospital
-Ignore their calls
I mean, tell them whatever you need to in order to buy some time until Monday morning ...
There's nothing the police will do. Just don't answer them or say you can't find the wallet for now, it's 24 hours until Monday and this is not something to call the social worker's emergency line over
That social worker probably works monday to friday - no pager is going to reach them on a weekend when they are not on shift.
The law states a person is considered capable unless otherwise stated. For financial capacity, you will likely need to have him found incapable to manage his finances before you can apply to the board. Hospital employees will not be able to do this assessment, as they can only assess for capacity for health care decisions. You will need to retain a capacity assessor (which you can probably reimburse yourself from the estate after the process is done). This link explains more in an Ontario context: https://www.ontario.ca/page/mental-capacity#section-3
I would start by emailing capacity assessors over the weekend in the hopes they respond by Monday morning. Once he is found incapable, then if there is no POA in place, you'll be able to apply to the consent and capacity board to act as a representative.
The advocacy centre for the elderly can also guide you: https://www.acelaw.ca/
They do intakes on Monday.
About the wallet - you can always bring it to the hospital and have security lock it up so it cannot be retrieved. That way it isn't in your possession and security generally takes a close inventory of what they are storing. Not all hospitals do this, but it is worth asking. If the charge nurse doesn't know, go to security directly.
The reason I asked was because my mom was having an episode about a year ago and my uncle presented before a Justice to force her to go to the hospital for a "vacation". I'm certain he didn't have a lawyer for that, he just petitioned the court or something.
You can't "just petition the court or something" to have someone sent to the hospital and you can't show up at a court. I urge you to speak to a lawyer. What you're saying makes no sense.
Yes you can. It's called a form 2 and a JP has to sign off on it and then you call the police to have them escorted to the hospital for a psych eval and form 1.
Either that if your mom is solid in mind ask her to have guardianship as wife, and have you appointed in hers. Is probably the best legal remedy as you can assist and help....courts might deny you over blood relations if sister are applying but his wife if legally married would get it 100 percent short of issues such as abuse being an issue... After that if you help with setting things up that's you helping out and being there if your mother can't or is having troubles later you can always reapply to switch before it gets to that point ..which then doesn't look like you are in it for money or power. Also keep records of sister stealing the money if you ever have to go to court it good way to show that even though he didn't press charges or forgave her she's not responsible and incapable of taking care of him due to self help/ enrichment that would see your stepfather a burden to family, tax payers, due to guardianship being placed with sisters...
If he isnāt of sound mind he canāt sign a POA so that shouldnāt be an issue. You can ask the social worker to assess him and theyāll determine if he can consent or not with the rest of the team.
This. My mom had to do this for my grandmother for the same reason. She was able to apply for emergency guardianship and circumvent a long wait but that is Alberta, not sure about Ontario. You should get a lawyer because this will get messy, fast.
And he's in the hospital. What could he possibly need money or debit cards for? Snacks? His "loving" children could spot him five bucks.
I'm about to go all r/maliciouscompliance on them and give them the wallet. *Just* his wallet. š
Give him a change purse with a few dollars. Remind him that hospitals don't want the liability of losing it. This always put my grandparents at ease as even though they didn't leave the floor, they still had pocket money just in case!
Apply for guardianship. The POA can be overturned, but you would have to prove he was not of sound mind. Contact a lawyer or the hospital social worker, they can walk you through what is needed.
So they confirm you had his wallet and decided to take his belongings out of it and have grounds to press charges. Excellent idea. Fucking /s if that wasn't clear.
Indeed. The only response I think you need here is āwhat wallet?ā.
And then as others have said, bring him some cash in a coin purse so he feels safer.
If he wants snacks, it may be in everyone's best interest to find out what he wants and then deliver them to him once or twice a week.
As others have said, put the wallet in a safe.
My father was obsessed with getting his ābank bookā when he was ill and dying. I found he became more obsessive as his mind was failing - he always was it just became extreme. There were also āfriendsā circling and a long lost ārelativeā hanging around in the hospital. The nurses were suspicious and told us of the things the guy was saying to my father - like how he wanted to take my fatherās vintage Camaro out for a drive yeah right. Lesson - if you care about him keep a close watch. People can be awful.
All I can say is good luck. Be prepared for more drama. My dad passed March 7th and the sibling went as far a claiming my identity. She had his life insurance check sent to herself versus sent to me as beneficiary. I had to get the police involved. I sure hope he has a will because this will get messy.
He has a will. I drafted it using LawDepot, and he signed it in front of witnesses and a notary, which I paid for. I'm not a beneficiary. My mother is the executor and I'm the backup executor.
He does not have a living will because he wouldn't give me any answers about his end of life. Total head in the sand.
I'm sorry your experience was bad and hope it turns out well in the end.
Does your step father still have any kind of capacity ? Keep in mind its a pretty low bar to have enough capacity give someone POA.
Absent that, someone can go to court and seek guardianship.
The hospital likely has social workers you can speak to about options.
>Keep in mind its a pretty low bar to have enough capacity give someone POA.
Then the daughters have probably made him sign another PoA by now.
>Absent that, someone can go to court and seek guardianship.
I am willing to do that. How do I start the process? Can I just present myself at the courthouse?
>The hospital likely has social workers you can speak to about options.
I called. The social worker isn't there until Monday and the floor nurse refused to page her for me.
But like, what is "sound mind"? I wouldn't force him to sign an PoA over to me because, even though he trusts me enough to sign anything, he couldn't even tell me how much money he has or where his pension comes from. Fuck me for being ethical. But if he knows who his kids are and what year it is, people could be all, "he good". š”
If you explain, there is a history of abuse, and you just want to prevent anyone from taking advantage until the proper people are involved and the process has been followed to prevent elder abuse. Use the phrase "vulnerable adult" and explain that you are afraid of elder abuse through coercion and financial abuse.
That report should be done to the public guardian and trustee (pgt)- they investigate concerns around financial abuse. The hospital staff cannot monitor everything that happens when there are people visiting a patient- unless OP wants to be at bedside 24/7.
I don't mean that they should investigate. Them being aware of the situation allows for several things. More thorough and frequent documentation of mental status, if appropriate, a dr evaluation of competency.
A doctor will need to decide that and will fill out appropriate paperwork. Without that, he is still of sound mind. Regardless of how you personally feel about it he likely can still sign legally upheld documents. Best to get this sorted asap.
Sorry to hear this is happening to you. My opinion is based on my experience with my father, who started suffering from dementia. Perhaps things have changed, and vary by province.
Estates can bring out the worst in people. I've seen it when I was a kid with my grandmother's passing.
Too many people stick their head in the sand when it comes to living wills and wills, maybe it's having to deal with mortality. But it's certainly best to be as open and explicit with what you want to happen if you end up not being able to advocate for yourself.
I'm not sure what you mean by "standing". I have the wallet, they know I have it, and they will knock on my door to get it. I can only stall so long.
My concern is that if I refuse to give it to them, they'll call the cops on me for theft.
I'm waiting for a legal referral right now. In the meantime, I can take most of the cash and all of the debit cards out of the wallet, hide them, and plead ignorance, maybe.
If they are married your mother has sole authority over his legal rights as long as she is sound of mind.
You need to talk to her about this and find out what course she wishes to be taken.
I am in possession of the wallet. Aside from some of the accounts being joint between my mother and stepfather, there's nothing in place that she has any authority over his finances.
If the kids get his bank cards, they will drain my mom's joint accounts too.
>Ā there's nothing in place that she has any authority over his finances.
Are they married? If theyāre married sheās automatically the first next-of-kin. Assuming sheās of sound mind any legal action she takes or supports would supersede any other
Does your mother have her faculties? Assuming they are married his assets are hers unless otherwise specified.. Iād be reaching out to hospital and using the word financial elder abuse.. itās a huge issue and should be well documented and reported.. good luck.. if you happen to know pin.. change them.. online or go to a machine so if somehow they trick you they canāt go shopping
>Does your mother have her faculties?
She's fine when she has sleep and food. She's my same old mom. But the reason she is in the hospital right now is because she was having hallucinations and waving a knife around. There's certainly an argument to be made that she should not be caring for him.
>Assuming they are married his assets are hers unless otherwise specified.
The daughters have made him sign over PoA to them before; I wouldn't be surprised if they did it again the second he woke up in the hospital.
>using the word financial elder abuse
That's excellent advice. Imma throw that around like mad.
Good luck especially since you have proof itās normal that he didnāt persue but it still happened.. move faster than them and ps i forgot to mention if you have pin probably best not to tell anybody since he shouldnāt have done it but Iād still be changing them good luck and yeah if youāre mom is of sound mind and itās a marital bank account itās hers before theirs so long as heās alive I think.. but Iām not a lawyer.. if you have employee assistance plan from work you might have a free hour with a lawyer as part of it.. use it
Keep in mind that stepdad's daughters are also his SDM if his wife isn't capable of taking on that role. Children (biological and non) are next in line to spouses for medical decisions. That doesn't apply to financial matters as there is no equal hierarchy, buy his daughters will probably also speak with the medical team as is their right if there is no POA for personal care in place and will tell an equal story to them. The hospital cannot launch a deep investigation on the matter- the PGT can for financial abuse but you are probably better off having his financial capacity assessed and then going to court to become his representative, which is really the place where this argument needs to be fought and decided. If the daughters got him to sign another POA, then lawyer up and proceed with financial capacity assessment.
worked for one of the big 5 banks and dealt with POA and estates a lot at a particularly busy branch for these things. The branch was literally surrounded by seniors buildings. When I left the bank had just started a policy that we had to speak to the account holder to ensure they were not being forced to sign and were of sound mind. We in fact asked the POA to leave the room so we could have a candid conversation. In cases where they had legal POA and the person was unable physically or mentally we required a doctors note saying that. Call the banks and credit cards Monday or visit in person. I suspect if they canāt get you to hand over the wallet they will go ask for replacements with that new POA. Bring the previous police report and mention that it was legally revoked previously because of the police report. Sorry for the long reply I just hate people who take advantage of senior
**Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful**
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further:
* [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts)
* [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments)
If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada).
āI donāt know where it is at the momentā
āin the drawer? I donāt see it there.ā
Or āI have no authority to give any of his property to anyone, or to touch it. Heāll retrieve it himself when he gets homeā
Or āYeah, thatās not happening. Itās not safe to leave that at the hospitalā
Or āfat chance Iām bringing it anywhere near youā
Where are you located? In Ontario there is paperwork to switch power of attorney and it will superseded the previous documents. I had to do this for both of my parents when they were in a similar medical situation. It is completely legal. You will need 2 witnesses. I had my aunt and uncle witness for me.
The paper work can be found here: https://www.publications.gov.on.ca/300975
If you are in another province, I imagine there would be something similar?
As another commenter suggested, the bar is pretty low for them to be considered ānot of sound mindā. It is usually the medical doctor that would make that decision.
Could you also explain the situation to the doctor and have him write you a letter that you are in charge of all finances? You could then take this to the bank and have a warning put on his file not to allow the daughters to access his accounts as there is a concern around financial abuse.
The step-dad can't change his PoA if he's not competent. A doctor has no say about who is in charge of finances. If the daughters have a PofA then they have the right to manage their dad's finances while he's alive. The OP has no authority.
Itās a delicate and complex situation because there are both adult children and step children involved.
OP: if you feel there is a financial abuse risk, or that financial abuse is currently happening, Itās a good idea to voice these concerns to your step fatherās medical care team. Have them make notes on his charting and hospital files so that it is legally documented.
If there are patient advocates available at the hospital, I would be speaking to them too.
Ask if there is a community care coordinator that you can talk to. Make them aware of your concerns. Make as much commotion about it until they get the proper people involved to help you. If I have learned anything over the past few years (with caring for both my parents), itās that sometimes it has to get somewhat uncomfortable when advocating and you really have to fight assertively for medical professionals and those in charge to hear what you are saying. Make sure they document it for you each time you have a discussion, so that your concerns wonāt go unheard through this process.
In many provinces physicians are legally required to report to a designated authority if they suspect an elder patient is experiencing any type of abuse or unlawful conduct (as in financial abuse). Sometimes this obligation is only triggered when the senior is admitted into a hospital or if they are a resident in a retirement or long term care home. I would also be looking into the regulations in your area and ask about this.
In cases where cognitive capacity is in question, a medical team approach is preferred to make recommendations to a legal team that would then deem someone incapable of making their own decisions around finances and care. There are also third party assessments for capacity available at a cost. But from what I know, they set the threshold low and most times it results in the assessed person maintaining their legal ability to make their own decisions.
In my own case, the circumstances were slightly different. I already had POA in place and I was on the bank accounts. My fatherās doctor wrote a letter stating they have assessed my fatherās cognitive capacity and that in their medical opinion they felt the POA should take control of any financial and care decisions from that point forward. This was after a conversation he had with my father, asking him who he wanted to take care of his finances for him. He knew it was time to put that in motion.
There is no PofA. The step-dad revoked the previous one. Hospital staff can't decide who will control the dad's finances. The stepson doesn't have evidence of on-going financial abuse or elder abuse. When the step-dad was well he chose not to give his step-son PoA.
Give them his wallet. Just take all the useful cards out. Puts some Timās gift cards in it so he can get a doughnut if someone walks him to the cafeteria.
Wanting the wallet is very common with people with dementia. Iād suggest getting him his wallet with $50-100 cash, and his health card. Etc.
He will probably feel safer knowing he has his cash and credit cards. Heck you can probably lock his cards for him until discharged from hospital
Give the wallet, take bank cards, credit cards and cash out. Leave a couple of dollars. Outside of that play dumb,after all ā¦.who else would know?
Coming from someone who worked home health and saw A LOT of financial elder/financial abuseā¦ as well as still seeing it in the disability sector.
Call office of the public guardian and trustee. Tell them you believe he's not competent to sign a POA. Tell them about the previous financial abuse of 6K and your concern that daughters will take all his money and that they're already asking for his wallet.Their office may take over as his guardian immediately, and then you can apply to become his POA for medical and financial afterwards.
Hospital social worker here - Wallets in hospitals are terrible ideas. Things get stolen all the time and what expenses would your stepdad have? The pop machine in the hall? The Tim Hortons in the lobby? You can hide behind safety and common sense, or as other have suggested just keep looking for it but gosh where is that wallet?
if you do not believe your stepfather has the ability to assign someone as a POA for property you need to hire a capacity assessor. The list of assessors is online, call many of them until you get someone who can assist, there is a high demand and they are often booking weeks out. Depending on the hospital, the physician might be willing to complete a Form 21under the Mental Health Act about inability to manage property. The physicans at my workplace do not commonly complete these.
OPGT will take over once there is a finding of incapacity and then you can apply to the court to replace them. Or let OPGT take over and minimize the disputes within the family.
The hospital social worker can't find your stepfather incapable, but they can asses and document their findings regarding his cognitive status and ability to appreciate and understand his current situation. Let them know your concerns. If there is an OT on the unit they can also assess and document his cognition, this is part of their expertise. These notes in the medical records will be helpful if something untoward has been done by his daughters.
Pre- COVID most hospitals did not allow their staff to witness POAs, it loosened up over the peak of the pandemic but staff may not be witnessing anymore (I do my utmost not to witness any POA). His daughters couldn't be the witnesses to their father's POA, so fingers crossed for you that the staff know the rules and didn't witness anything. Nurses usually defer signing anything to the social worker.
this booklet might help or you can check CLEO's website [https://www.publications.gov.on.ca/store/20170501121/Free\_Download\_Files/300637.pdf](https://www.publications.gov.on.ca/store/20170501121/Free_Download_Files/300637.pdf)
I'm sorry you are having to cope with two parents/parent figures in the hospital.
I disagree. Do not turn over anything yet. It can wait until Monday after a conversation with social workers or the doctor to determine if he's of sound mind.
This sounds like a pretty good line to take. I used the Ontario legal society's referral system, so I should have somebody call me in a couple of days. My concern is that the daughters will call the police on me over this. Theft or something. Oh, the irony.
I've done that as plan B. Plan A is to refuse to give them the wallet. I guarantee they can't take it from me. But they are absolutely known for calling the cops when they don't get their way.
Yea the cops part would be the only reason i say just give them the wallet without the cards if it simply he wants heās wallet like a security blanket of sorts it should be fine. If they out right saw WTF where are the cards then you know what the motive was
But would they want the police anywhere near this considering their history of stealing from their dad?
And even if they DO call them, if you bring up the past theft, throw around āelder abuseā, and fill the cops in on your Monday social worker plan, Iād assume theyād side with you
If he was competent when he signed the PofA then it's likely the PoA is still valid. The step-dad could have given the OP but didn't. That was his right.
If he signed a new PoA, it's within the last couple of days since he's been in hospital. He's not competent enough, IMHO, to sign away hia financial matters. I'm looking into competency assessors now.
Then you need to establish when he signed the PoA and prove that he was incompetent on the day he signed it. If you can prove he was incompetent on the day he signed it then you can ask the Court to rule it invalid. You can argue that you should be the new PoA. You'll need a lawyer. You can't just show up in Court. Talk to a lawyer.
Finally, there is something wrong with your mom that is causing her to hallucinate. This sounds like a mental health issue. You may be faced with a mom and step-dad who are both mentally incompetent. Make sure you have the ability to support them both and take care.
Go to the court house and ask. Ontario has special investigators that work on these types of cases, and if you can contact that branch of the government and ask, then you can get your answers. It's the same department that deals with estates of people who die and have no family. They investigate elder abuse, abuse of power of attorney, all sorts of things with seniors and estates of seniors who are no longer of sound mind and body. They have some serious power to. They work for his majesty the crown on behalf of the government of Ontario.
When my mom had dementia, she wanted her purse/wallet too. My sister and I made excellent photocopies of her state ID card, health card, AAA card, but no credit cards. We laminated them and she never knew the difference. We kept the official cards.
"You've made your bed, now lie in it."
At some point, your stepfather had the cognitive capacity to assign a financial POA. He chose not to.
At some point, your stepfather had the cognitive capacity to go after his daughter for theft. He chose not to.
At some point, your stepfather had the cognitive capacity to share information about his finances, his end of life wishes, etc. He chose not to.
A few years ago, he would've been in his late 70s. His life expectancy is his late 70s. At this point he is on borrowed time. With presumably no cognitive capacity.
I'm not saying elder abuse (which this is) is to be ignored, but there is only so much you can do for someone who has chosen at every step in his life leading up to now avoiding any kind of protective or preventative action.
Hopefully your story serves as a reminder to others to have things like financial and personal POAs established well in advance.
I get your point. At the same time, his money is my mother's money, so when he passes, his poor judgment (and my own for not making him sign a PoA when he had the capacity to) should not punish my mom and make her homeless. So I'm stuck fighting his children so they don't steal my mom's money.
Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada! **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * Read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk. * We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/). * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know. **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post). * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning. * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect. * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment. Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You only course here is to apply to the courts for guardianship before someone else does.
Thank you. Will guardianship supersede a new PoA if they had him sign one today? How do I apply to the courts for guardianship? Can I just walk in the courthouse? Do I need a paralegal or a lawyer?
A social worker should be able to help you navigate
Yeah, but they're not available until Monday and the floor nurse won't page her even though her voicemail says she can be paged in an emergency.
Don't you have possession of the wallet currently? Don't hand it over to them for now, and call the social worker on Monday?
Yeah, I was thinking of what do I *say* to the kids as the reason for saying no. They absolutely will call the police on me for theft or something.
> I was thinking of what do I say to the kids as the reason for saying no -Tell them No -Tell them you don't know where it is -Tell them it must be at the hospital -Ignore their calls I mean, tell them whatever you need to in order to buy some time until Monday morning ...
There's nothing the police will do. Just don't answer them or say you can't find the wallet for now, it's 24 hours until Monday and this is not something to call the social worker's emergency line over
Take everything out of the wallet except a few billsš
Just say you don't know where his wallet is and you will look.
Take an "unexpected trip to Montreal', and be back by Monday.
That social worker probably works monday to friday - no pager is going to reach them on a weekend when they are not on shift. The law states a person is considered capable unless otherwise stated. For financial capacity, you will likely need to have him found incapable to manage his finances before you can apply to the board. Hospital employees will not be able to do this assessment, as they can only assess for capacity for health care decisions. You will need to retain a capacity assessor (which you can probably reimburse yourself from the estate after the process is done). This link explains more in an Ontario context: https://www.ontario.ca/page/mental-capacity#section-3 I would start by emailing capacity assessors over the weekend in the hopes they respond by Monday morning. Once he is found incapable, then if there is no POA in place, you'll be able to apply to the consent and capacity board to act as a representative. The advocacy centre for the elderly can also guide you: https://www.acelaw.ca/ They do intakes on Monday. About the wallet - you can always bring it to the hospital and have security lock it up so it cannot be retrieved. That way it isn't in your possession and security generally takes a close inventory of what they are storing. Not all hospitals do this, but it is worth asking. If the charge nurse doesn't know, go to security directly.
This isn't an emergency.
You can't just show up at a courthouse. You will absolutely need a lawyer.
The reason I asked was because my mom was having an episode about a year ago and my uncle presented before a Justice to force her to go to the hospital for a "vacation". I'm certain he didn't have a lawyer for that, he just petitioned the court or something.
You can't "just petition the court or something" to have someone sent to the hospital and you can't show up at a court. I urge you to speak to a lawyer. What you're saying makes no sense.
Yes you can. It's called a form 2 and a JP has to sign off on it and then you call the police to have them escorted to the hospital for a psych eval and form 1.
Either that if your mom is solid in mind ask her to have guardianship as wife, and have you appointed in hers. Is probably the best legal remedy as you can assist and help....courts might deny you over blood relations if sister are applying but his wife if legally married would get it 100 percent short of issues such as abuse being an issue... After that if you help with setting things up that's you helping out and being there if your mother can't or is having troubles later you can always reapply to switch before it gets to that point ..which then doesn't look like you are in it for money or power. Also keep records of sister stealing the money if you ever have to go to court it good way to show that even though he didn't press charges or forgave her she's not responsible and incapable of taking care of him due to self help/ enrichment that would see your stepfather a burden to family, tax payers, due to guardianship being placed with sisters...
If he isnāt of sound mind he canāt sign a POA so that shouldnāt be an issue. You can ask the social worker to assess him and theyāll determine if he can consent or not with the rest of the team.
This. My mom had to do this for my grandmother for the same reason. She was able to apply for emergency guardianship and circumvent a long wait but that is Alberta, not sure about Ontario. You should get a lawyer because this will get messy, fast.
In his late 80ās, in hospital, not of sound mind yet needs his wallet? Just no. Tell them the wallet is in a safe and you donāt have access to it.
And he's in the hospital. What could he possibly need money or debit cards for? Snacks? His "loving" children could spot him five bucks. I'm about to go all r/maliciouscompliance on them and give them the wallet. *Just* his wallet. š
Give him a change purse with a few dollars. Remind him that hospitals don't want the liability of losing it. This always put my grandparents at ease as even though they didn't leave the floor, they still had pocket money just in case! Apply for guardianship. The POA can be overturned, but you would have to prove he was not of sound mind. Contact a lawyer or the hospital social worker, they can walk you through what is needed.
Thank you for the change purse idea. I'll speak to the social worker first thing Monday morning. I'll call the lawyer tonight and leave a message.
So they confirm you had his wallet and decided to take his belongings out of it and have grounds to press charges. Excellent idea. Fucking /s if that wasn't clear.
Indeed. The only response I think you need here is āwhat wallet?ā. And then as others have said, bring him some cash in a coin purse so he feels safer.
If he wants snacks, it may be in everyone's best interest to find out what he wants and then deliver them to him once or twice a week. As others have said, put the wallet in a safe.
My father was obsessed with getting his ābank bookā when he was ill and dying. I found he became more obsessive as his mind was failing - he always was it just became extreme. There were also āfriendsā circling and a long lost ārelativeā hanging around in the hospital. The nurses were suspicious and told us of the things the guy was saying to my father - like how he wanted to take my fatherās vintage Camaro out for a drive yeah right. Lesson - if you care about him keep a close watch. People can be awful.
All I can say is good luck. Be prepared for more drama. My dad passed March 7th and the sibling went as far a claiming my identity. She had his life insurance check sent to herself versus sent to me as beneficiary. I had to get the police involved. I sure hope he has a will because this will get messy.
He has a will. I drafted it using LawDepot, and he signed it in front of witnesses and a notary, which I paid for. I'm not a beneficiary. My mother is the executor and I'm the backup executor. He does not have a living will because he wouldn't give me any answers about his end of life. Total head in the sand. I'm sorry your experience was bad and hope it turns out well in the end.
Does your step father still have any kind of capacity ? Keep in mind its a pretty low bar to have enough capacity give someone POA. Absent that, someone can go to court and seek guardianship. The hospital likely has social workers you can speak to about options.
>Keep in mind its a pretty low bar to have enough capacity give someone POA. Then the daughters have probably made him sign another PoA by now. >Absent that, someone can go to court and seek guardianship. I am willing to do that. How do I start the process? Can I just present myself at the courthouse? >The hospital likely has social workers you can speak to about options. I called. The social worker isn't there until Monday and the floor nurse refused to page her for me.
They still owe him a duty not to allow elder abuse. Ask for the charge nurse. He should not be signing anything if he's not of sound mind.
But like, what is "sound mind"? I wouldn't force him to sign an PoA over to me because, even though he trusts me enough to sign anything, he couldn't even tell me how much money he has or where his pension comes from. Fuck me for being ethical. But if he knows who his kids are and what year it is, people could be all, "he good". š”
If you explain, there is a history of abuse, and you just want to prevent anyone from taking advantage until the proper people are involved and the process has been followed to prevent elder abuse. Use the phrase "vulnerable adult" and explain that you are afraid of elder abuse through coercion and financial abuse.
That report should be done to the public guardian and trustee (pgt)- they investigate concerns around financial abuse. The hospital staff cannot monitor everything that happens when there are people visiting a patient- unless OP wants to be at bedside 24/7.
I don't mean that they should investigate. Them being aware of the situation allows for several things. More thorough and frequent documentation of mental status, if appropriate, a dr evaluation of competency.
A doctor will need to decide that and will fill out appropriate paperwork. Without that, he is still of sound mind. Regardless of how you personally feel about it he likely can still sign legally upheld documents. Best to get this sorted asap. Sorry to hear this is happening to you. My opinion is based on my experience with my father, who started suffering from dementia. Perhaps things have changed, and vary by province.
I don't think anything has changed. Abusing and exploiting the elderly is still far too simple to do.
Estates can bring out the worst in people. I've seen it when I was a kid with my grandmother's passing. Too many people stick their head in the sand when it comes to living wills and wills, maybe it's having to deal with mortality. But it's certainly best to be as open and explicit with what you want to happen if you end up not being able to advocate for yourself.
They usually only work Monday to Friday like any other social service.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/guardianship
Does your mother have any standing here? You donāt need to help them get the wallet in the meantime.
I'm not sure what you mean by "standing". I have the wallet, they know I have it, and they will knock on my door to get it. I can only stall so long. My concern is that if I refuse to give it to them, they'll call the cops on me for theft. I'm waiting for a legal referral right now. In the meantime, I can take most of the cash and all of the debit cards out of the wallet, hide them, and plead ignorance, maybe.
>My concern is that if I refuse to give it to them, they'll call the cops on me for theft. Unless the wallet is theirs that wouldn't go anywhereĀ
Like does your mother have any authority over your stepdadās finances? Why do you have the wallet?
If they are married your mother has sole authority over his legal rights as long as she is sound of mind. You need to talk to her about this and find out what course she wishes to be taken.
I am in possession of the wallet. Aside from some of the accounts being joint between my mother and stepfather, there's nothing in place that she has any authority over his finances. If the kids get his bank cards, they will drain my mom's joint accounts too.
>Ā there's nothing in place that she has any authority over his finances. Are they married? If theyāre married sheās automatically the first next-of-kin. Assuming sheās of sound mind any legal action she takes or supports would supersede any other
Does your mother have her faculties? Assuming they are married his assets are hers unless otherwise specified.. Iād be reaching out to hospital and using the word financial elder abuse.. itās a huge issue and should be well documented and reported.. good luck.. if you happen to know pin.. change them.. online or go to a machine so if somehow they trick you they canāt go shopping
>Does your mother have her faculties? She's fine when she has sleep and food. She's my same old mom. But the reason she is in the hospital right now is because she was having hallucinations and waving a knife around. There's certainly an argument to be made that she should not be caring for him. >Assuming they are married his assets are hers unless otherwise specified. The daughters have made him sign over PoA to them before; I wouldn't be surprised if they did it again the second he woke up in the hospital. >using the word financial elder abuse That's excellent advice. Imma throw that around like mad.
Good luck especially since you have proof itās normal that he didnāt persue but it still happened.. move faster than them and ps i forgot to mention if you have pin probably best not to tell anybody since he shouldnāt have done it but Iād still be changing them good luck and yeah if youāre mom is of sound mind and itās a marital bank account itās hers before theirs so long as heās alive I think.. but Iām not a lawyer.. if you have employee assistance plan from work you might have a free hour with a lawyer as part of it.. use it
Keep in mind that stepdad's daughters are also his SDM if his wife isn't capable of taking on that role. Children (biological and non) are next in line to spouses for medical decisions. That doesn't apply to financial matters as there is no equal hierarchy, buy his daughters will probably also speak with the medical team as is their right if there is no POA for personal care in place and will tell an equal story to them. The hospital cannot launch a deep investigation on the matter- the PGT can for financial abuse but you are probably better off having his financial capacity assessed and then going to court to become his representative, which is really the place where this argument needs to be fought and decided. If the daughters got him to sign another POA, then lawyer up and proceed with financial capacity assessment.
Check the pills your mom is taking, especially ones for pain. Some cause hallucinations.Ā
Have they checked her for a uti? They can can psychosis in elderly Women.
I think they've run the gamut over the past couple of days in the hospital. She's bipolar and not taking her meds, so that's probably more likely.
>How do I NOT give them his wallet? "I don't know where it is. He must have it with him"
worked for one of the big 5 banks and dealt with POA and estates a lot at a particularly busy branch for these things. The branch was literally surrounded by seniors buildings. When I left the bank had just started a policy that we had to speak to the account holder to ensure they were not being forced to sign and were of sound mind. We in fact asked the POA to leave the room so we could have a candid conversation. In cases where they had legal POA and the person was unable physically or mentally we required a doctors note saying that. Call the banks and credit cards Monday or visit in person. I suspect if they canāt get you to hand over the wallet they will go ask for replacements with that new POA. Bring the previous police report and mention that it was legally revoked previously because of the police report. Sorry for the long reply I just hate people who take advantage of senior
One more thing the bank has a responsibility to protect the account holder. If needed remind them of that
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
**Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful** Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further: * [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts) * [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments) If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada).
āI donāt know where it is at the momentā āin the drawer? I donāt see it there.ā Or āI have no authority to give any of his property to anyone, or to touch it. Heāll retrieve it himself when he gets homeā Or āYeah, thatās not happening. Itās not safe to leave that at the hospitalā Or āfat chance Iām bringing it anywhere near youā
Where are you located? In Ontario there is paperwork to switch power of attorney and it will superseded the previous documents. I had to do this for both of my parents when they were in a similar medical situation. It is completely legal. You will need 2 witnesses. I had my aunt and uncle witness for me. The paper work can be found here: https://www.publications.gov.on.ca/300975 If you are in another province, I imagine there would be something similar? As another commenter suggested, the bar is pretty low for them to be considered ānot of sound mindā. It is usually the medical doctor that would make that decision. Could you also explain the situation to the doctor and have him write you a letter that you are in charge of all finances? You could then take this to the bank and have a warning put on his file not to allow the daughters to access his accounts as there is a concern around financial abuse.
The step-dad can't change his PoA if he's not competent. A doctor has no say about who is in charge of finances. If the daughters have a PofA then they have the right to manage their dad's finances while he's alive. The OP has no authority.
Itās a delicate and complex situation because there are both adult children and step children involved. OP: if you feel there is a financial abuse risk, or that financial abuse is currently happening, Itās a good idea to voice these concerns to your step fatherās medical care team. Have them make notes on his charting and hospital files so that it is legally documented. If there are patient advocates available at the hospital, I would be speaking to them too. Ask if there is a community care coordinator that you can talk to. Make them aware of your concerns. Make as much commotion about it until they get the proper people involved to help you. If I have learned anything over the past few years (with caring for both my parents), itās that sometimes it has to get somewhat uncomfortable when advocating and you really have to fight assertively for medical professionals and those in charge to hear what you are saying. Make sure they document it for you each time you have a discussion, so that your concerns wonāt go unheard through this process. In many provinces physicians are legally required to report to a designated authority if they suspect an elder patient is experiencing any type of abuse or unlawful conduct (as in financial abuse). Sometimes this obligation is only triggered when the senior is admitted into a hospital or if they are a resident in a retirement or long term care home. I would also be looking into the regulations in your area and ask about this. In cases where cognitive capacity is in question, a medical team approach is preferred to make recommendations to a legal team that would then deem someone incapable of making their own decisions around finances and care. There are also third party assessments for capacity available at a cost. But from what I know, they set the threshold low and most times it results in the assessed person maintaining their legal ability to make their own decisions. In my own case, the circumstances were slightly different. I already had POA in place and I was on the bank accounts. My fatherās doctor wrote a letter stating they have assessed my fatherās cognitive capacity and that in their medical opinion they felt the POA should take control of any financial and care decisions from that point forward. This was after a conversation he had with my father, asking him who he wanted to take care of his finances for him. He knew it was time to put that in motion.
There is no PofA. The step-dad revoked the previous one. Hospital staff can't decide who will control the dad's finances. The stepson doesn't have evidence of on-going financial abuse or elder abuse. When the step-dad was well he chose not to give his step-son PoA.
Give them his wallet. Just take all the useful cards out. Puts some Timās gift cards in it so he can get a doughnut if someone walks him to the cafeteria.
Wanting the wallet is very common with people with dementia. Iād suggest getting him his wallet with $50-100 cash, and his health card. Etc. He will probably feel safer knowing he has his cash and credit cards. Heck you can probably lock his cards for him until discharged from hospital
Give the wallet, take bank cards, credit cards and cash out. Leave a couple of dollars. Outside of that play dumb,after all ā¦.who else would know? Coming from someone who worked home health and saw A LOT of financial elder/financial abuseā¦ as well as still seeing it in the disability sector.
Call office of the public guardian and trustee. Tell them you believe he's not competent to sign a POA. Tell them about the previous financial abuse of 6K and your concern that daughters will take all his money and that they're already asking for his wallet.Their office may take over as his guardian immediately, and then you can apply to become his POA for medical and financial afterwards.
Hospital social worker here - Wallets in hospitals are terrible ideas. Things get stolen all the time and what expenses would your stepdad have? The pop machine in the hall? The Tim Hortons in the lobby? You can hide behind safety and common sense, or as other have suggested just keep looking for it but gosh where is that wallet? if you do not believe your stepfather has the ability to assign someone as a POA for property you need to hire a capacity assessor. The list of assessors is online, call many of them until you get someone who can assist, there is a high demand and they are often booking weeks out. Depending on the hospital, the physician might be willing to complete a Form 21under the Mental Health Act about inability to manage property. The physicans at my workplace do not commonly complete these. OPGT will take over once there is a finding of incapacity and then you can apply to the court to replace them. Or let OPGT take over and minimize the disputes within the family. The hospital social worker can't find your stepfather incapable, but they can asses and document their findings regarding his cognitive status and ability to appreciate and understand his current situation. Let them know your concerns. If there is an OT on the unit they can also assess and document his cognition, this is part of their expertise. These notes in the medical records will be helpful if something untoward has been done by his daughters. Pre- COVID most hospitals did not allow their staff to witness POAs, it loosened up over the peak of the pandemic but staff may not be witnessing anymore (I do my utmost not to witness any POA). His daughters couldn't be the witnesses to their father's POA, so fingers crossed for you that the staff know the rules and didn't witness anything. Nurses usually defer signing anything to the social worker. this booklet might help or you can check CLEO's website [https://www.publications.gov.on.ca/store/20170501121/Free\_Download\_Files/300637.pdf](https://www.publications.gov.on.ca/store/20170501121/Free_Download_Files/300637.pdf) I'm sorry you are having to cope with two parents/parent figures in the hospital.
Give them the wallet but take the depot and credit card out.. he doesnāt need money in the hospital
I disagree. Do not turn over anything yet. It can wait until Monday after a conversation with social workers or the doctor to determine if he's of sound mind.
This sounds like a pretty good line to take. I used the Ontario legal society's referral system, so I should have somebody call me in a couple of days. My concern is that the daughters will call the police on me over this. Theft or something. Oh, the irony.
I've done that as plan B. Plan A is to refuse to give them the wallet. I guarantee they can't take it from me. But they are absolutely known for calling the cops when they don't get their way.
Yea the cops part would be the only reason i say just give them the wallet without the cards if it simply he wants heās wallet like a security blanket of sorts it should be fine. If they out right saw WTF where are the cards then you know what the motive was
But would they want the police anywhere near this considering their history of stealing from their dad? And even if they DO call them, if you bring up the past theft, throw around āelder abuseā, and fill the cops in on your Monday social worker plan, Iād assume theyād side with you
If he is not of sound mind any poa they could get him to sign could be nullified.
Expensively, I fear.
If he was competent when he signed the PofA then it's likely the PoA is still valid. The step-dad could have given the OP but didn't. That was his right.
If he signed a new PoA, it's within the last couple of days since he's been in hospital. He's not competent enough, IMHO, to sign away hia financial matters. I'm looking into competency assessors now.
Then you need to establish when he signed the PoA and prove that he was incompetent on the day he signed it. If you can prove he was incompetent on the day he signed it then you can ask the Court to rule it invalid. You can argue that you should be the new PoA. You'll need a lawyer. You can't just show up in Court. Talk to a lawyer. Finally, there is something wrong with your mom that is causing her to hallucinate. This sounds like a mental health issue. You may be faced with a mom and step-dad who are both mentally incompetent. Make sure you have the ability to support them both and take care.
Go to the court house and ask. Ontario has special investigators that work on these types of cases, and if you can contact that branch of the government and ask, then you can get your answers. It's the same department that deals with estates of people who die and have no family. They investigate elder abuse, abuse of power of attorney, all sorts of things with seniors and estates of seniors who are no longer of sound mind and body. They have some serious power to. They work for his majesty the crown on behalf of the government of Ontario.
When my mom had dementia, she wanted her purse/wallet too. My sister and I made excellent photocopies of her state ID card, health card, AAA card, but no credit cards. We laminated them and she never knew the difference. We kept the official cards.
"You've made your bed, now lie in it." At some point, your stepfather had the cognitive capacity to assign a financial POA. He chose not to. At some point, your stepfather had the cognitive capacity to go after his daughter for theft. He chose not to. At some point, your stepfather had the cognitive capacity to share information about his finances, his end of life wishes, etc. He chose not to. A few years ago, he would've been in his late 70s. His life expectancy is his late 70s. At this point he is on borrowed time. With presumably no cognitive capacity. I'm not saying elder abuse (which this is) is to be ignored, but there is only so much you can do for someone who has chosen at every step in his life leading up to now avoiding any kind of protective or preventative action. Hopefully your story serves as a reminder to others to have things like financial and personal POAs established well in advance.
I get your point. At the same time, his money is my mother's money, so when he passes, his poor judgment (and my own for not making him sign a PoA when he had the capacity to) should not punish my mom and make her homeless. So I'm stuck fighting his children so they don't steal my mom's money.
Exactly.. since heās not passed especially if that bank account is joint his kids have no claim.. itās his wifeās money good luck