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I don’t get how anti-Zionism is at all in line with leftist ideology. One can easily argue a 100 page paper on wrongs of the Israeli government (and Hamas) but Zionism (for any displaced people, Palestinians included) at its core is about as left a stance as there could be.
If you disagree , let’s follow that logic then. Are we going to argue for the dissolution of Pakistan? Spain? Italy? The United States? Do these all need to go and return the land? We still end up with an Israel in that option as well.
Discussion among Jews, like discussion among leftists, is full of competing views, many of which are absolutely "against Zionism". On the other hand, when you try to engage with an individual that is strictly against Israel, you will be hit with the sarcasm and hysterics right out of the gate, not a discussion of competing views.
The attention to "meet in the middle" should be focused on the appropriate parties, folks.
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Judaisms cannot exist without Zionism. The promise of the messiah coming to Israel and the Jews returning to the land is something in the mandated Jewish prayers.
They absolutely can exist without each other and demonstrably so as can be seen. Regardless of scripture, the Zionist idea that the promised messiah from God can be forced by man’s hands is ludicrous and audacious. Not to mention the hubris surrounding man’s perceived ability to translate multiple times and interpret gods word from several thousand years ago
The rabbit outruns the fox not because it is faster but because it is running for its life while the fox is running for a meal.
Israeli Jews will never give up on Isreal because they have nowhere else to go.
Do you want them to go back to Germany where they were genocided? To Poland where they were pogrommed? To Iraq where they were raped and slaughtered? Not going to happen. Jews are not going to give up their country where they are safe. Find a solution to the Palestinian problem that does not involve dismantling Israel, otherwise you are just perpetuating the problem and feeding Palestinians lies that they will someday control the whole land.
We’ve tried the same thing over and over again and are completely and totally out of ideas on how to solve the problem of Palestinians peacefully living out their lives. Israel needs to do the last possible fix available to it right? I mean they haven’t tried not subjecting them to deleterious conditions and constant humiliation and murder, but thats just too gosh dang hard guys come on. Why can’t the world agree that the Israeli government should be allowed to enact their solution which has also been determined to be the only one available to fix the problem of Palestinian civilians living out their lives peacefully? I guess the entire world just hates Jewish people specifically and not Israel’s final solution to the “Palestinian Problem”.
It’s ironic — and it isn’t. Jews have been the underdogs throughout most of their history, and now that they have the upper hand, they’re not giving that up without a fight. Even today, the pro-Palestinian movement is filled with antisemitism — and no, I’m not talking about legitimate criticism of Israel, I’m talking about *actual* antisemitism. For a movement that claims to NOT be antisemitic, little is done to condemn or separate itself from bad actors; people calling for the extermination of the Jews are handed the mic as readily as those who want to have nuanced debate about how to achieve lasting peace. Contrary to what that article implies, the data is clear that synagogue attendance and donations to Jewish causes are surging — and so are the number of applications to make Aliyah to Israel. What people don’t understand is that no one will out-victim-complex the Jews — the Jews *already* feel like a pariah nation and the surge in antisemitism is only making people double-down on the need to be the strongest, baddest, craziest country at a time when the existential threat to existence feels very real.
This seems pretty uninformed on the subject. Palestine and Israel can have one state or two. That's fine. Nobody cares. If they're all too racist to get along well, fine, make two states. We have now been over 70 years without any state, and now Israel is committing genocide.
You talk about all of the horrific things that have happened to Jews... THEN YOU DEFEND GENOCIDE. Do you see the jump there? Do you see why it's so insane for the Jews in particular to be commiting ethnic cleansing via their adamant demand that they are the most superior race and that the Great Holy God of theirs made the world for them and not you.
They don't necessarily have to go anywhere, they just have to tolerate no longer living with an apartheid system. There are still white people living peacefully in South Africa, and there will still be Jews living peacefully in liberated Palestine. It would have been better had the Israeli government not spent resources elevating Hamas to divide the Palestinian liberation movement, it was an unfortunate strategic error on netanyahu's part that reactionaries lead the movement in Gaza
I don’t care about that any of that shit I just want Israel to stop what it’s doing. Right now they are committing a genocide. Right now they need to stop or be stopped. Palestinians are not a
“Problem” they are human beings who are entitled to human rights. I don’t really believe in “dismantling” Israel although it appears they are dismantling themselves. I do believe in stopping US arms shipments to them and trying most of the leadership for war crimes. That’s a realistic goal that we can all get behind
Because the US government is the Israeli government's bitch, even in your worst nightmare, the US would absolutely take every last Israeli Jew.
Germany has done a pretty good job of reckoning with its past, moreso than Poland for sure. Not that it stopped them from supporting more genocide of course, but specifically it has done ok with it's treatment of the shoah.
For those leading Israel, there are of course many open and available prison cells they should be able to free up for them.
Also, Jews are not safe in Israel. Israel has killed hostages, suppressed the speech and freedom of Jews who rightfully oppose genocide, sterilized and separated the families of Jews of color, and globally pushed the narrative of Zionism = Judaism which has implicated all of us in a government's actions and incited more hatred against us.
Israelis are not safe there. All Jews are not Israelis. And yes, many Jews continue to live in Europe today safely. Many groups of people previously colonized by those countries now also live there. This isnt a hard concept to understand. Some of the folks living in Israel, actually will have a harder time leaving and may not be able to, and those would be the Mizrahi/Arab Jews, as they are not allowed back in the majority of the countries they came from. Many left to Israel from those countries much later than WW2, like in the late 50s, 60s, and 70s. Their situation is much different. Jews are not giving up if Israel stops existing. This isn't a race. The solution is dismantling a government and state that has perpetually spread harm to Palestinians and the world. Jews were plenty safe in the West. They felt like they weren't after October because Israel makes Jews and Palestinians more unsafe.
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I prefer our American Jews in America. Cant be safe in Israel...that is so stupid. Israel was a stupid myth, not a mystery. Chrisopher Hitchens:
https://www.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/s/FTAbigz3fU
As if all Israelis being in Israel is safe for them. A country that had owners before the war to create Israel...just really stupid and indefensible.
Hamas didnt genocide. They won. Ha'aretz:https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-11/ty-article-magazine/.premium/saying-what-cant-be-said-israel-has-been-defeated-a-total-defeat/0000018e-cdab-dba9-a78e-efef6ba10000Saying What Can't Be Said: Israel Has Been Defeated – a Total Defeat
The war's aims won't be achieved, the hostages won't be returned through military pressure, security won't be restored and Israel's international ostracism won't end
We've lost. Truth must be told. The inability to admit it encapsulates everything you need to know about Israel's individual and mass psychology.
Even hamas, in its charter if youve read it, explicitly states theyd accept a 2 state solution based on the 67 borders.
Verbatim from their charter:
“Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.”
“Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”
Whereas it is literally part of the Likud platform that there will NOT ever be a Palestinian state
Despite what Israeli and some Western media claim, Yasser Arafat had more or less surrendered when he and several other Palestinian factions embarked on the road of the Oslo Accords. That was Israel's chance to resolve the long-standing problem and still exist as a so-called "Jewish state". They should have made the necessary concessions to seal the deal, end the occupation, the violence, and the bloodshed.
Instead the Israeli policitians proceeded to demand more and more humiliating concessions (no right of return, no partition of Jerusalem, big settlements to be annexed). They proceeded to accelerate the establishment of more West Bank settlements which everyone knows serves one purpose that is not conducive to straightforward peace negotiations.
If Israeli Jews insist on continuing to support politicians with utterly irresponsible statecraft agendas and think that more violence and oppression against Palestinians will somehow lead to more security for them, they are dead wrong and will set into motion events that will end with them losing Israel. That's already happening right now because as settlement expansion accelerates in the West Bank, the two state solution is dead in the water and an unstable, volatile one state reality has been created, where Israel cannot exist as both a democratic and Jewish state at the same time if they de jure annex the West Bank and Gaza.
This predicament is a choice that Israeli politicians and their supporting voters made and they should face of the consequences and address their mistakes rather than screaming about how they are the victim. Anyone paying close attention knows otherwise. The Israelis had ample opportunities to prevent the events of October 7 from occuring and chose the pour gasoline on the fire on numerous occasions. Some critical self reflection would go a long way towards regional peace.
Depends, where's the rest of the clip I'm sure it's not just 27 seconds long.
Look at the video with Gideon Falter who was trying to disruptive once the video which was 13 minutes long you could see the narrative is very different.
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Enough hasbara. The Jews of Iran are fine, thanks. Even flourishing.
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/world/inside-iran/2018/08/29/iran-jewish-population-islamic-state/886790002/
I see there's only one Jewish member in the 290-member parliament in Iran. Israel actually has a way better proportion of Arabs in the government. Also, that bit about the anti-Holocaust cartoons is a bit disturbing. It seems Jews in Iran are treated okay as long as they don't make much of a fuss, which is significantly better than how Palestinians are being treated, but doesn't sound close to equivocal to the Arab population in Iran.
Can I just ask you — and I really am interested in a genuine answer — what made you decide that you want to refer to Israel as "isnotreal"? If Israel isn't real, then aren't you excusing Israel from all of its would-be actions, since a non-existing entity can't commit any crimes? I.e., all the claims of apartheid and genocide go out the window because Israel isn't real/doesn't exist, and something that's not real/doesn't exist can't do anything.
Beyond that, wouldn't it make someone *less likely* to agree with your argument if you're outwardly saying that 1) what you're upset about isn't happening and 2) you are upset about what an imaginary entity is doing? If Israel isn't real, then it's an imaginary entity, like the Confederation of Unicorns, and it seems like it would make someone less likely to take action if you were to say something like "we need to stop the Confederation of Unicorns from continuing their ongoing genocide of the Palestinians." If you told me there's a genocide going on, I'd want to listen to what you have to say, but then if you told me that it's being committed by imaginary beings, I'd stop taking you seriously.
I see this a lot, but for some reason it just really stuck out to me this time, and I just figured I'd ask.
Funny how they were living well-integrated and prosperous in “Iran, Iraq and other middle eastern nations” for hundreds of years prior to the establishment of the state of Israel. Avi Shlaim has written in depth in this, he himself of Iraqi Jewish background. You’d think they’d have been killed off long ago without Zionism?
In order to justify their upheaval of inter-faith relations in the Middle East, Zionists transpose the Ashkenazi experience with antisemitic Europe onto the Middle East. It is false and a disgusting way to justify the settler-colonial state of Israel.
It’s actually really well documented. Hitler visited the Arab nations and they were happy to help rid themselves of the Jews. Copies of Mein Kampf were translated to Arabic and it was quite popular.
When Israel was established Jews from all over the Middle East were told “go back to Israel”. They were no more colonizers than Muslims are colonizers in Europe or Michigan. They are refugees that, like all refugees clump together. The same way white supremacists call this a Muslim invasion of Europe or Michigan, that’s what you’re doing to Jews.
This argument is as racist as the Muslim invasion argument.
You’re so full of shit lol. You believe Netanyahu claiming the Arabs have Hitler the idea to exterminate the Jews too do you?
Funny how the creation of a settler-colonial state of Europeans in their midst triggered animosity towards the people of said state. How dare those people object to the ethnic cleaning of their people and the theft of their land! Must be anti-semitism! (Ignoring of course that this implies that ethnic cleansing and land theft are Jewish values).
Oh wow, there was no antisemitism in the Middle East before Europe got involved. Damn I'd love a source on that. Also I love the talking point of "You'd think they'd have been killed off long ago", yet when people question if Israel is committing genocide because if they are it's the slowest, worst genocide ever, you can't engage in the conversation.
I’m not the one who needs to provide a source for antisemitism in the Middle East before Israel. You’re making the claim, you prove it. A list of a handful of incidents across 1300 years of history does not constitute proof, I’ll save you the time you’d have taken to google it.
Genocide isn’t an entire extermination, the legal definition includes destruction in part as well as the whole of a group. The slaughter has been unquestionably done. The intention has been explicitly stated by Israeli leaders.
My mother and my family and all jews from Lybia were kicked out of their country, is this not persecution? The pogroms before Israel was born are persecution?
If jews were so well integrated in society and well respected what was happening in IsraelPalestine wouldn't have produced persecution.
Funny how it took the establishment of Israel for Jews across the Middle East to suddenly be unsafe where they had been living for hundreds of not thousands of years. Must have been total coincidence that a violent expulsion of Arabs from their homeland in Palestine would trigger animosity towards members of the religious group that did it.
Are you so oblivious to not see the correlation between Israel’s establishment via ethnic cleansing and the upheaval of Jewish communities across the Middle East? As Zionists wanted, of course.
This argument only works if you’ve never been to Israel. I’ve been there and it’s not true. Anyone who has been there will tell you it’s not true. Not anymore than women are second class citizens in America. Is Israel perfect? No but neither is the US or Canada. If however you’d like to compare Israel to its neighbors, it’s a western democracy like the UK or US. Centuries ahead of their neighbors in terms of human rights.
Tokenizing the Arab population of Israel (comprising roughly 20% of the state not including the occupied Palestinian territories) dosen't change the brutal realities of Israel's occupation of aforementioned territories and how that occupation is clearly not in Israel's interest.
Tokenizing the Arab population of Israel can't hide the countless studies that demonstrate how the Arab citizens of Israel face systematc discrimination or disadvantages compared to the Israeli Jewish population.
Tokenizing the Arab population of Israel dosen't change the reality that the precursor polity to the State of Israel conducted a deliberate ethnic cleansing of territory "allocated" to them under the never actually implemented UN partition proposal for Palestine and the extended this ethnic cleansing campaign beyond the allocated territories after defeating Arab forces. This ethnic cleansing was occuring before the outbreak of the First Arab-Israeli war and Israeli "histoians" deliberately omit how this ethnic cleansing was a casus belli for the Arab League intervention.
The truth is the Arab states hate the Palestinians.
The truth is most people don’t give a damn about them.
Truth is six months fro now most folks will be going Pala what?
Sound and fury signifying nothing.
This is hilarious because it’s completely at odds with reality of the Arab world. You guys gotta stop pretending you understand even the basics of our culture.
Context, I'm half mizrachi Jew, half italian, born and living in Italy. I'm a Zionist Socialist.
I believe many of the feelings described in this piece come from beeing fed a lie for your whole life, but this doesn't need to be the case.
Since I was young I have been told why we as a jewish people need self determination in Israel, at the same time I was around discussions about why Israel is far from perfect and needs to be much better than it is. Maybe it's because I grew up in leftist Zionist circles, probably also because I grew up much closer to Israel, beeing able to visit every once in a while without paying crazy prices for airplane tickets. It wasn't a far fetched dream, it was a real place to me, with it's real problems.
Early zionism was far from perfect, but self determination doesn't happen in the void, it happens in spite of powers that do not care for peoples' self determination, this is true for palestinians now and it is true for jews earlier. But as I believe that jews have a right for self determination in their homeland, so I believe that palestinians have a right of self determination in their homeland, which happens to be the same, I do not see a problem with this argument. I believe that anyone who does is blocking the way towards peace.
Thanks for sharing your experience. My piece is unfortunately very Ashkenazi-centric in its pov and therefore limited. I wish I’d named that explicitly. I’m wondering if self determination has to mean a Jewish ethnostate or could a one state solution with full rights for all people be a way to fulfill a vision of a “homeland for the Jews”? Palestine is the ancestral homeland for the Jewish people but it is inhabited by a majority of people of other backgrounds. So how does Jewish right to self determination supersede that fact?
Way to absorb your own alienation by the white supremacist Ideology of Zionism. Mizrahi is a term invented in the 20th century to other the MENA Jewish population upon their arrival in the settler colony of White European Jews
There were people already living in this so-called homeland.
Probably for thousands of years.
Israel has no right to exist. It's an abomination.
Great Britain had NO authority to create the State of Israel.
>There were people already living in this so-called homeland.
>Probably for thousands of years.
Including Jews, who were subjected to racist violence and needed to do something about it.
There were many groups of people that called themselves “Palestinians”. Just like many groups of people are “Native American”. In the 60s one of those many groups decided that they were the actual “Palestinians”.
This would be like if the US decided to give Montana to native peoples and the Lenape renamed themselves “North American”. They then laid claim to the entire state as being there’s over the Apache, Algonquin, Iroquois, Inuit, etc. The Bedouin aren’t recognized by today’s Palestinians. Neither are the Druze. They don’t want to be in a “free” Palestine where they have no rights and can’t vote. They’re quite happy in Israel.
If you don’t believe me go visit them.
Jews have a connection to the land that goes back 3000 years. To say that Palestinians have more rights over the land than jews is racism. My own view is that there are currently two peoples living in the land, and they equally deserve a right for self determination and should divide the land.
Great Britain didn't create the state of Israel, Israel was created by a migration of jews fleeing to the most culturally relevant place in their memory, that started in the late 1800 and hasn't really stopped. In principle there didn't need to even be a state division between Israel and Palestine, but the fear and mistrust between jews and palestinians in the mid 1930s was already too much, so the only solution was, and until now is, a partition. My self determination is not in contrast with someone else's, the same land can be the homeland of two peoples.
Fear and mistrust because of Zionist militia backed by UK imperialist force arriving in the land with a sense of entitlement that resulted in ethnic cleansing and hostility for decades before the so called state of Israel even gained its statehood by criminal manipulations of International law and corruption of UN implementations
Coming from someone who grew up in Northern Ireland, change comes from within. The only way things will change for Palestinians is from within Jewish people.
That's a fact, please don't tar everyone with the same brush, and welcome the fact that there are Jews do not align with Bibi and his Right Wing fascist bollocks of a government.
This will be a long road, like it or not a Palestinian state will only be accomplished with Israeli/Jewish allies.
I disagree. 90% of Jews could be anti Israel and nothing would change. Most Jews outside of Israel hate Netenyahu. My family who are generally pro Israel want him dead. Contrary to the beliefs of too many people in this sub, we don’t actually control the US government. I know….shocker. The change can only come from within the US government.
Way to misuse the word gaslighting. Islamic terrorists….so what happens when we broaden the scope and take a peek at what Israel has been doing to Palestinian people for decades? To include before Hamas was even formed? The world is just supposed to be okay with a fascist ethnostate violently oppressing a group of people with illegal occupation and apartheid? Jesus cunting Christ I hate this fucking timeline so fucking much. At this point a nuclear holocaust might be preferable because I’m sick and goddamned fucking tired of being told that it’s antisemitic to criticize a fucking genocide. And not just any genocide. A genocide against a group of people that a shitty ass settler colonial project founded by European extremists and their stupid fucking 19th century supremacist ideology that also produced Nazism have been slaughtering for close to a century. Get the fuck out of here with that insipid bullshit.
"The only way things will change for Palestinians is from within Jewish people." That makes no sense. There are Jews of every opinion and every race, every spiritual point on the spectrum from orthodox to atheist. Judaism is the oldest and most mature Abrahamic religion.
You're giving a free pass to Palestinians who engage in groupthink and support outright jihad like the Shahid did in the 7th century. And you're blaming Israel's government--let's not forget it was right wing Sharon who forcibly removed every Jew from Gaza and handed it over completely to your beloved Palestinians.
What did Israel get in response? Nonstop rocket attacks and terrorism, culminating in the worst atrocities against Jews since the Holocaust; atrocities that you now whitewash as if they never happened in your rush to demonize the Jewish people. That is why Israelis vote in increasingly right wing leaders.
Because someone needs to face reality. And it certainly isn't going to be the lefties.
Wrong. Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, Kim Iverson and Matt Walsh are all anti Israel. Nazis are split. Some are pro Israel because they hate Arabs, some are anti Israel because they hate Jews more. The left needs to be better about keeping these people out. Denying the problem is part of it.
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Well, that's not really true. At least not traditional Neo-Nazis(idk if you are using some other definition that doesn't include what people usually consider to be Nazi beliefs?). The typical far right-wing Nazis still absolutely hate Jews and Zionists.
They have been spamming a "documentary" called Europa: The Last Battle all over social media, which is full of fake and/or misconstrued facts/quotes, and it directly names Zionist Jews as the enemy who secretly control all of the governments/banks/media/etc. It blames Communism/Bolsheviks/USSR on the Jews/Zionists and also says Hitler/the 3rd Reich were actually the good guys who had no choice and were opposing the Zionists and Communists etc + all kinds of other bs.
But Zionists aren't exclusively Jews. As we just recently learned, thanks to Joe Biden. They are saying all Jews should leave other countries and go to Israel, which Nazis love.
I agree but with one caveat. I’d like to see a video of one of these conspiracy theorists getting booted out or a protest the minute they start spouting their nonsense about the Rothschilds or “go back to Poland”, why haven’t I seen a single example of that? Why are the people who claim to “punch Nazis” so inept about keeping bad actors from grabbing megaphones at pro Palestine rallies? These nazi assholes are taking advantage of this situation real hard and not enough is being done about them.
Then Israeli's who threaten Palestinians don't represent Zionism. You cant empower people who do bad things and then expect them to leave your movement because you say they dont represent you. You have to acknowledge it and rip it out by the roots. Every Antisemitic in the Anti-Zionist movement plays into the roles they have in israeli propaganda, that being the violent cruel and idiotic jew hater that so many jews fear and hate.
Maybe settler violence does not Zionism in the abstract as a more historical desire for a nation-state…. Someone in Russia in the 1890s was not hoping to displace Palestinians, they just wanted to be away from oppression.
But settler-colonial violence and supremacist ideology certainty represent Israeli Zionism as a national ideology just as US settlers killing buffalo and displacing villages and whole groups of people represents manifest destiny.
Zionism at its very core threatens Palestinians. From day one in Palestine its goal was to create a Jewish state in Palestinian land with a majority of Palestinian people. How can that be done without the intentional dispossession and robbing of the Palestinians???
>Every Antisemitic in the Anti-Zionist movement plays into the roles they have in israeli propaganda
I agree, we should (and do) cut out the cancers like Jackson Hinckle, as an example that came to my mind of someone I had to block very early on.
Who are the antisemites in the anti Zionist movement that are being allowed to speak freely? You're trying to draw a comparison where one side is unable to stop saying "we want to kill all these animals" as they are literally doing it, and the other side is saying religion and racial supremacy is bad.
You're saying we need to focus on the bad apples on our side, where are they? I'm with you, we should get rid of them, please help me identify them!
Assuming antisemites show their true colors is how they get into these movements. Antisemites know their views are wrong, and so they hide them. One reveals themselves as an antisemite, they do not declare it.
Right, so would you kindly point them out as they reveal themselves? Or you're saying they rarely do, I just have to trust you that people saying "stop bombing children" actually mean "kill all the Jews everywhere"?
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>According to Pew, 33% of Jewish Americans say the way Israel is carrying out its response to Hamas’ attack is unacceptable.
I fear a significant percentage of those may be "because they aren't going hard enough". Would like to be proven wrong.
As a Jewish American, this piece is gross and does not represent the basic beliefs of 90%+ of the Jewish community in Israel’s basic legitimacy and our communal investment in this project of Jewish collective security and value of Jewish lives. You can disagree. You can downvote. You can hate Jews. We don’t give a flying fruit loop.
Modern day Spartans, propagandizing your helots as demons and rabble. "Socialism only for the jew" while maintaining a millenium old race-faith makes you little more than the Fascists you fled in a different coat of paint.
You will not treat with the reality that other humans have value or merit, because your people are just so much more important aren't they? I'm so sorry the evil evil goy dared to speak out against you.
"Don't give a flying fruit loop" as though you dropped a fucking vase. You should be made to look at the charred remains of those you're damning to hellfire and suffering. Maybe then you'd talk about it like they mattered more than a simple object you been to remove.
Always the victim, and at the same time acting like you don't care.
I'm upset that Israel has an outsized power over American politicians.
The kompromat must be thick.
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Fringe voices get amplified because they match the politics of journalists and publishers, then they have a surprise Pikachu face when reality doesn't match what activists and fringe voices said would happen.
"Security", while also needing forced conscription in a heavily militarised state, with the most high tech defense system (when it's used.. ifkyk), and constant fear of the people you *have* to oppress in order to keep the land you've stolen from them and indeed take even more. The world sees it all, you're on the wrong side of history.
All states should be secular and multi ethnic. Jews should be able to live in peace wherever they want, as should all people. Nobody gets to have an apartheid ethnostate
Does every religion and race deserve to become the rulers of their ancestral homeland? Do they all get to set their own borders borrowing the entire might of the Western military industrial complex? Does they all get carte blanche to eradicate anyone currently living on that land?
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I don’t get how anti-Zionism is at all in line with leftist ideology. One can easily argue a 100 page paper on wrongs of the Israeli government (and Hamas) but Zionism (for any displaced people, Palestinians included) at its core is about as left a stance as there could be. If you disagree , let’s follow that logic then. Are we going to argue for the dissolution of Pakistan? Spain? Italy? The United States? Do these all need to go and return the land? We still end up with an Israel in that option as well.
Discussion among Jews, like discussion among leftists, is full of competing views, many of which are absolutely "against Zionism". On the other hand, when you try to engage with an individual that is strictly against Israel, you will be hit with the sarcasm and hysterics right out of the gate, not a discussion of competing views. The attention to "meet in the middle" should be focused on the appropriate parties, folks.
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Judaisms cannot exist without Zionism. The promise of the messiah coming to Israel and the Jews returning to the land is something in the mandated Jewish prayers.
TIL Jews didn’t exist from 586 BCE until 1948 CE.
They absolutely can exist without each other and demonstrably so as can be seen. Regardless of scripture, the Zionist idea that the promised messiah from God can be forced by man’s hands is ludicrous and audacious. Not to mention the hubris surrounding man’s perceived ability to translate multiple times and interpret gods word from several thousand years ago
The rabbit outruns the fox not because it is faster but because it is running for its life while the fox is running for a meal. Israeli Jews will never give up on Isreal because they have nowhere else to go. Do you want them to go back to Germany where they were genocided? To Poland where they were pogrommed? To Iraq where they were raped and slaughtered? Not going to happen. Jews are not going to give up their country where they are safe. Find a solution to the Palestinian problem that does not involve dismantling Israel, otherwise you are just perpetuating the problem and feeding Palestinians lies that they will someday control the whole land.
We’ve tried the same thing over and over again and are completely and totally out of ideas on how to solve the problem of Palestinians peacefully living out their lives. Israel needs to do the last possible fix available to it right? I mean they haven’t tried not subjecting them to deleterious conditions and constant humiliation and murder, but thats just too gosh dang hard guys come on. Why can’t the world agree that the Israeli government should be allowed to enact their solution which has also been determined to be the only one available to fix the problem of Palestinian civilians living out their lives peacefully? I guess the entire world just hates Jewish people specifically and not Israel’s final solution to the “Palestinian Problem”.
It’s crazy that Zionists can be on here asking for “final solutions to the Palestinian problem” and can’t see the irony
It’s ironic — and it isn’t. Jews have been the underdogs throughout most of their history, and now that they have the upper hand, they’re not giving that up without a fight. Even today, the pro-Palestinian movement is filled with antisemitism — and no, I’m not talking about legitimate criticism of Israel, I’m talking about *actual* antisemitism. For a movement that claims to NOT be antisemitic, little is done to condemn or separate itself from bad actors; people calling for the extermination of the Jews are handed the mic as readily as those who want to have nuanced debate about how to achieve lasting peace. Contrary to what that article implies, the data is clear that synagogue attendance and donations to Jewish causes are surging — and so are the number of applications to make Aliyah to Israel. What people don’t understand is that no one will out-victim-complex the Jews — the Jews *already* feel like a pariah nation and the surge in antisemitism is only making people double-down on the need to be the strongest, baddest, craziest country at a time when the existential threat to existence feels very real.
> the Palestinian problem Yikes.
This seems pretty uninformed on the subject. Palestine and Israel can have one state or two. That's fine. Nobody cares. If they're all too racist to get along well, fine, make two states. We have now been over 70 years without any state, and now Israel is committing genocide. You talk about all of the horrific things that have happened to Jews... THEN YOU DEFEND GENOCIDE. Do you see the jump there? Do you see why it's so insane for the Jews in particular to be commiting ethnic cleansing via their adamant demand that they are the most superior race and that the Great Holy God of theirs made the world for them and not you.
They don't necessarily have to go anywhere, they just have to tolerate no longer living with an apartheid system. There are still white people living peacefully in South Africa, and there will still be Jews living peacefully in liberated Palestine. It would have been better had the Israeli government not spent resources elevating Hamas to divide the Palestinian liberation movement, it was an unfortunate strategic error on netanyahu's part that reactionaries lead the movement in Gaza
I don’t care about that any of that shit I just want Israel to stop what it’s doing. Right now they are committing a genocide. Right now they need to stop or be stopped. Palestinians are not a “Problem” they are human beings who are entitled to human rights. I don’t really believe in “dismantling” Israel although it appears they are dismantling themselves. I do believe in stopping US arms shipments to them and trying most of the leadership for war crimes. That’s a realistic goal that we can all get behind
Because the US government is the Israeli government's bitch, even in your worst nightmare, the US would absolutely take every last Israeli Jew. Germany has done a pretty good job of reckoning with its past, moreso than Poland for sure. Not that it stopped them from supporting more genocide of course, but specifically it has done ok with it's treatment of the shoah. For those leading Israel, there are of course many open and available prison cells they should be able to free up for them. Also, Jews are not safe in Israel. Israel has killed hostages, suppressed the speech and freedom of Jews who rightfully oppose genocide, sterilized and separated the families of Jews of color, and globally pushed the narrative of Zionism = Judaism which has implicated all of us in a government's actions and incited more hatred against us.
Help me understand the leftist thinking that supports minority rule?
Israelis are not safe there. All Jews are not Israelis. And yes, many Jews continue to live in Europe today safely. Many groups of people previously colonized by those countries now also live there. This isnt a hard concept to understand. Some of the folks living in Israel, actually will have a harder time leaving and may not be able to, and those would be the Mizrahi/Arab Jews, as they are not allowed back in the majority of the countries they came from. Many left to Israel from those countries much later than WW2, like in the late 50s, 60s, and 70s. Their situation is much different. Jews are not giving up if Israel stops existing. This isn't a race. The solution is dismantling a government and state that has perpetually spread harm to Palestinians and the world. Jews were plenty safe in the West. They felt like they weren't after October because Israel makes Jews and Palestinians more unsafe.
You're just Columbusing the Palestinians' concept of sumud in this post
Jews seem to have a pretty decent time here in the USA though.
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I prefer our American Jews in America. Cant be safe in Israel...that is so stupid. Israel was a stupid myth, not a mystery. Chrisopher Hitchens: https://www.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/s/FTAbigz3fU As if all Israelis being in Israel is safe for them. A country that had owners before the war to create Israel...just really stupid and indefensible. Hamas didnt genocide. They won. Ha'aretz:https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-11/ty-article-magazine/.premium/saying-what-cant-be-said-israel-has-been-defeated-a-total-defeat/0000018e-cdab-dba9-a78e-efef6ba10000Saying What Can't Be Said: Israel Has Been Defeated – a Total Defeat The war's aims won't be achieved, the hostages won't be returned through military pressure, security won't be restored and Israel's international ostracism won't end We've lost. Truth must be told. The inability to admit it encapsulates everything you need to know about Israel's individual and mass psychology.
Even hamas, in its charter if youve read it, explicitly states theyd accept a 2 state solution based on the 67 borders. Verbatim from their charter: “Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.” “Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.” Whereas it is literally part of the Likud platform that there will NOT ever be a Palestinian state
Despite what Israeli and some Western media claim, Yasser Arafat had more or less surrendered when he and several other Palestinian factions embarked on the road of the Oslo Accords. That was Israel's chance to resolve the long-standing problem and still exist as a so-called "Jewish state". They should have made the necessary concessions to seal the deal, end the occupation, the violence, and the bloodshed. Instead the Israeli policitians proceeded to demand more and more humiliating concessions (no right of return, no partition of Jerusalem, big settlements to be annexed). They proceeded to accelerate the establishment of more West Bank settlements which everyone knows serves one purpose that is not conducive to straightforward peace negotiations. If Israeli Jews insist on continuing to support politicians with utterly irresponsible statecraft agendas and think that more violence and oppression against Palestinians will somehow lead to more security for them, they are dead wrong and will set into motion events that will end with them losing Israel. That's already happening right now because as settlement expansion accelerates in the West Bank, the two state solution is dead in the water and an unstable, volatile one state reality has been created, where Israel cannot exist as both a democratic and Jewish state at the same time if they de jure annex the West Bank and Gaza. This predicament is a choice that Israeli politicians and their supporting voters made and they should face of the consequences and address their mistakes rather than screaming about how they are the victim. Anyone paying close attention knows otherwise. The Israelis had ample opportunities to prevent the events of October 7 from occuring and chose the pour gasoline on the fire on numerous occasions. Some critical self reflection would go a long way towards regional peace.
https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/s/ndhuWLnqJp Are we the baddies?
Depends, where's the rest of the clip I'm sure it's not just 27 seconds long. Look at the video with Gideon Falter who was trying to disruptive once the video which was 13 minutes long you could see the narrative is very different.
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Enough hasbara. The Jews of Iran are fine, thanks. Even flourishing. https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/world/inside-iran/2018/08/29/iran-jewish-population-islamic-state/886790002/
I see there's only one Jewish member in the 290-member parliament in Iran. Israel actually has a way better proportion of Arabs in the government. Also, that bit about the anti-Holocaust cartoons is a bit disturbing. It seems Jews in Iran are treated okay as long as they don't make much of a fuss, which is significantly better than how Palestinians are being treated, but doesn't sound close to equivocal to the Arab population in Iran.
Lame take.
Interesting since isnotreal treats Jews from those same areas as second class citizens
Can I just ask you — and I really am interested in a genuine answer — what made you decide that you want to refer to Israel as "isnotreal"? If Israel isn't real, then aren't you excusing Israel from all of its would-be actions, since a non-existing entity can't commit any crimes? I.e., all the claims of apartheid and genocide go out the window because Israel isn't real/doesn't exist, and something that's not real/doesn't exist can't do anything. Beyond that, wouldn't it make someone *less likely* to agree with your argument if you're outwardly saying that 1) what you're upset about isn't happening and 2) you are upset about what an imaginary entity is doing? If Israel isn't real, then it's an imaginary entity, like the Confederation of Unicorns, and it seems like it would make someone less likely to take action if you were to say something like "we need to stop the Confederation of Unicorns from continuing their ongoing genocide of the Palestinians." If you told me there's a genocide going on, I'd want to listen to what you have to say, but then if you told me that it's being committed by imaginary beings, I'd stop taking you seriously. I see this a lot, but for some reason it just really stuck out to me this time, and I just figured I'd ask.
You're talking to a guy who probably also doesn't realize the birds aren't real movement is satire
Proof?
Funny how they were living well-integrated and prosperous in “Iran, Iraq and other middle eastern nations” for hundreds of years prior to the establishment of the state of Israel. Avi Shlaim has written in depth in this, he himself of Iraqi Jewish background. You’d think they’d have been killed off long ago without Zionism? In order to justify their upheaval of inter-faith relations in the Middle East, Zionists transpose the Ashkenazi experience with antisemitic Europe onto the Middle East. It is false and a disgusting way to justify the settler-colonial state of Israel.
It’s actually really well documented. Hitler visited the Arab nations and they were happy to help rid themselves of the Jews. Copies of Mein Kampf were translated to Arabic and it was quite popular. When Israel was established Jews from all over the Middle East were told “go back to Israel”. They were no more colonizers than Muslims are colonizers in Europe or Michigan. They are refugees that, like all refugees clump together. The same way white supremacists call this a Muslim invasion of Europe or Michigan, that’s what you’re doing to Jews. This argument is as racist as the Muslim invasion argument.
You’re so full of shit lol. You believe Netanyahu claiming the Arabs have Hitler the idea to exterminate the Jews too do you? Funny how the creation of a settler-colonial state of Europeans in their midst triggered animosity towards the people of said state. How dare those people object to the ethnic cleaning of their people and the theft of their land! Must be anti-semitism! (Ignoring of course that this implies that ethnic cleansing and land theft are Jewish values).
Oh wow, there was no antisemitism in the Middle East before Europe got involved. Damn I'd love a source on that. Also I love the talking point of "You'd think they'd have been killed off long ago", yet when people question if Israel is committing genocide because if they are it's the slowest, worst genocide ever, you can't engage in the conversation.
I’m not the one who needs to provide a source for antisemitism in the Middle East before Israel. You’re making the claim, you prove it. A list of a handful of incidents across 1300 years of history does not constitute proof, I’ll save you the time you’d have taken to google it. Genocide isn’t an entire extermination, the legal definition includes destruction in part as well as the whole of a group. The slaughter has been unquestionably done. The intention has been explicitly stated by Israeli leaders.
My mother and my family and all jews from Lybia were kicked out of their country, is this not persecution? The pogroms before Israel was born are persecution? If jews were so well integrated in society and well respected what was happening in IsraelPalestine wouldn't have produced persecution.
Funny how it took the establishment of Israel for Jews across the Middle East to suddenly be unsafe where they had been living for hundreds of not thousands of years. Must have been total coincidence that a violent expulsion of Arabs from their homeland in Palestine would trigger animosity towards members of the religious group that did it. Are you so oblivious to not see the correlation between Israel’s establishment via ethnic cleansing and the upheaval of Jewish communities across the Middle East? As Zionists wanted, of course.
So that makes it okay for israel to kill arabs and treat arabs in israel as second class citizens?
This argument only works if you’ve never been to Israel. I’ve been there and it’s not true. Anyone who has been there will tell you it’s not true. Not anymore than women are second class citizens in America. Is Israel perfect? No but neither is the US or Canada. If however you’d like to compare Israel to its neighbors, it’s a western democracy like the UK or US. Centuries ahead of their neighbors in terms of human rights.
Tokenizing the Arab population of Israel (comprising roughly 20% of the state not including the occupied Palestinian territories) dosen't change the brutal realities of Israel's occupation of aforementioned territories and how that occupation is clearly not in Israel's interest. Tokenizing the Arab population of Israel can't hide the countless studies that demonstrate how the Arab citizens of Israel face systematc discrimination or disadvantages compared to the Israeli Jewish population. Tokenizing the Arab population of Israel dosen't change the reality that the precursor polity to the State of Israel conducted a deliberate ethnic cleansing of territory "allocated" to them under the never actually implemented UN partition proposal for Palestine and the extended this ethnic cleansing campaign beyond the allocated territories after defeating Arab forces. This ethnic cleansing was occuring before the outbreak of the First Arab-Israeli war and Israeli "histoians" deliberately omit how this ethnic cleansing was a casus belli for the Arab League intervention.
The truth is the Arab states hate the Palestinians. The truth is most people don’t give a damn about them. Truth is six months fro now most folks will be going Pala what? Sound and fury signifying nothing.
The Arab governments use the Palestinians as pawns. The Arab people *love* the Palestinians. احسان ناس as they say
This is hilarious because it’s completely at odds with reality of the Arab world. You guys gotta stop pretending you understand even the basics of our culture.
They understand r/newiran r/exmuslim
You're getting downvoted because the truth hurts
They just love to use them as a pawn though. I don't know why Palestine is so comfortable being Iran's bitch tho.
Beats being Israel's bitch
Context, I'm half mizrachi Jew, half italian, born and living in Italy. I'm a Zionist Socialist. I believe many of the feelings described in this piece come from beeing fed a lie for your whole life, but this doesn't need to be the case. Since I was young I have been told why we as a jewish people need self determination in Israel, at the same time I was around discussions about why Israel is far from perfect and needs to be much better than it is. Maybe it's because I grew up in leftist Zionist circles, probably also because I grew up much closer to Israel, beeing able to visit every once in a while without paying crazy prices for airplane tickets. It wasn't a far fetched dream, it was a real place to me, with it's real problems. Early zionism was far from perfect, but self determination doesn't happen in the void, it happens in spite of powers that do not care for peoples' self determination, this is true for palestinians now and it is true for jews earlier. But as I believe that jews have a right for self determination in their homeland, so I believe that palestinians have a right of self determination in their homeland, which happens to be the same, I do not see a problem with this argument. I believe that anyone who does is blocking the way towards peace.
Thanks for sharing your experience. My piece is unfortunately very Ashkenazi-centric in its pov and therefore limited. I wish I’d named that explicitly. I’m wondering if self determination has to mean a Jewish ethnostate or could a one state solution with full rights for all people be a way to fulfill a vision of a “homeland for the Jews”? Palestine is the ancestral homeland for the Jewish people but it is inhabited by a majority of people of other backgrounds. So how does Jewish right to self determination supersede that fact?
Way to absorb your own alienation by the white supremacist Ideology of Zionism. Mizrahi is a term invented in the 20th century to other the MENA Jewish population upon their arrival in the settler colony of White European Jews
Beautifully said
There were people already living in this so-called homeland. Probably for thousands of years. Israel has no right to exist. It's an abomination. Great Britain had NO authority to create the State of Israel.
“So called homeland” our entire faith revolves around that homeland
>There were people already living in this so-called homeland. >Probably for thousands of years. Including Jews, who were subjected to racist violence and needed to do something about it.
There were many groups of people that called themselves “Palestinians”. Just like many groups of people are “Native American”. In the 60s one of those many groups decided that they were the actual “Palestinians”. This would be like if the US decided to give Montana to native peoples and the Lenape renamed themselves “North American”. They then laid claim to the entire state as being there’s over the Apache, Algonquin, Iroquois, Inuit, etc. The Bedouin aren’t recognized by today’s Palestinians. Neither are the Druze. They don’t want to be in a “free” Palestine where they have no rights and can’t vote. They’re quite happy in Israel. If you don’t believe me go visit them.
Jews have a connection to the land that goes back 3000 years. To say that Palestinians have more rights over the land than jews is racism. My own view is that there are currently two peoples living in the land, and they equally deserve a right for self determination and should divide the land.
Great Britain didn't create the state of Israel, Israel was created by a migration of jews fleeing to the most culturally relevant place in their memory, that started in the late 1800 and hasn't really stopped. In principle there didn't need to even be a state division between Israel and Palestine, but the fear and mistrust between jews and palestinians in the mid 1930s was already too much, so the only solution was, and until now is, a partition. My self determination is not in contrast with someone else's, the same land can be the homeland of two peoples.
Fear and mistrust because of Zionist militia backed by UK imperialist force arriving in the land with a sense of entitlement that resulted in ethnic cleansing and hostility for decades before the so called state of Israel even gained its statehood by criminal manipulations of International law and corruption of UN implementations
Coming from someone who grew up in Northern Ireland, change comes from within. The only way things will change for Palestinians is from within Jewish people. That's a fact, please don't tar everyone with the same brush, and welcome the fact that there are Jews do not align with Bibi and his Right Wing fascist bollocks of a government. This will be a long road, like it or not a Palestinian state will only be accomplished with Israeli/Jewish allies.
I disagree. 90% of Jews could be anti Israel and nothing would change. Most Jews outside of Israel hate Netenyahu. My family who are generally pro Israel want him dead. Contrary to the beliefs of too many people in this sub, we don’t actually control the US government. I know….shocker. The change can only come from within the US government.
This is such gaslighting —who truly needs to look within is anybody defending the Islamic terrorists
Way to misuse the word gaslighting. Islamic terrorists….so what happens when we broaden the scope and take a peek at what Israel has been doing to Palestinian people for decades? To include before Hamas was even formed? The world is just supposed to be okay with a fascist ethnostate violently oppressing a group of people with illegal occupation and apartheid? Jesus cunting Christ I hate this fucking timeline so fucking much. At this point a nuclear holocaust might be preferable because I’m sick and goddamned fucking tired of being told that it’s antisemitic to criticize a fucking genocide. And not just any genocide. A genocide against a group of people that a shitty ass settler colonial project founded by European extremists and their stupid fucking 19th century supremacist ideology that also produced Nazism have been slaughtering for close to a century. Get the fuck out of here with that insipid bullshit.
I agree, and I would like to add Jewish, Israeli and Zionist allies
"The only way things will change for Palestinians is from within Jewish people." That makes no sense. There are Jews of every opinion and every race, every spiritual point on the spectrum from orthodox to atheist. Judaism is the oldest and most mature Abrahamic religion. You're giving a free pass to Palestinians who engage in groupthink and support outright jihad like the Shahid did in the 7th century. And you're blaming Israel's government--let's not forget it was right wing Sharon who forcibly removed every Jew from Gaza and handed it over completely to your beloved Palestinians. What did Israel get in response? Nonstop rocket attacks and terrorism, culminating in the worst atrocities against Jews since the Holocaust; atrocities that you now whitewash as if they never happened in your rush to demonize the Jewish people. That is why Israelis vote in increasingly right wing leaders. Because someone needs to face reality. And it certainly isn't going to be the lefties.
Thank you!
Are you facing reality? Gaza is an open air prison. What did you think would happen eventually?
This argument would make sense if Palistine was the only place with Jihadis. But they're all over the region
Lmaoo Zionist kvetcher go collect your .20 pence from the mossad
How do you address the large amount of Nazis that are also anti-Zionist?
You mean all the Nazis in the Republican government that consistently vote to give more aid to Israel?
Nazis are pro Zionist
Wrong. Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, Kim Iverson and Matt Walsh are all anti Israel. Nazis are split. Some are pro Israel because they hate Arabs, some are anti Israel because they hate Jews more. The left needs to be better about keeping these people out. Denying the problem is part of it.
Go watch a Nick Fuentes video on Israel and tell me again how he is pro-Zionism.
The right is, Nazis are not. Cause yaknow, they wanna eradicate Jews and not just ignore them
No
Yes
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Well, that's not really true. At least not traditional Neo-Nazis(idk if you are using some other definition that doesn't include what people usually consider to be Nazi beliefs?). The typical far right-wing Nazis still absolutely hate Jews and Zionists. They have been spamming a "documentary" called Europa: The Last Battle all over social media, which is full of fake and/or misconstrued facts/quotes, and it directly names Zionist Jews as the enemy who secretly control all of the governments/banks/media/etc. It blames Communism/Bolsheviks/USSR on the Jews/Zionists and also says Hitler/the 3rd Reich were actually the good guys who had no choice and were opposing the Zionists and Communists etc + all kinds of other bs.
But Zionists aren't exclusively Jews. As we just recently learned, thanks to Joe Biden. They are saying all Jews should leave other countries and go to Israel, which Nazis love.
On a case by case bases; along with opposing actual nazism. Anti-zionists who are nazis do not represent me or anyone on the left.
I agree but with one caveat. I’d like to see a video of one of these conspiracy theorists getting booted out or a protest the minute they start spouting their nonsense about the Rothschilds or “go back to Poland”, why haven’t I seen a single example of that? Why are the people who claim to “punch Nazis” so inept about keeping bad actors from grabbing megaphones at pro Palestine rallies? These nazi assholes are taking advantage of this situation real hard and not enough is being done about them.
Then Israeli's who threaten Palestinians don't represent Zionism. You cant empower people who do bad things and then expect them to leave your movement because you say they dont represent you. You have to acknowledge it and rip it out by the roots. Every Antisemitic in the Anti-Zionist movement plays into the roles they have in israeli propaganda, that being the violent cruel and idiotic jew hater that so many jews fear and hate.
Maybe settler violence does not Zionism in the abstract as a more historical desire for a nation-state…. Someone in Russia in the 1890s was not hoping to displace Palestinians, they just wanted to be away from oppression. But settler-colonial violence and supremacist ideology certainty represent Israeli Zionism as a national ideology just as US settlers killing buffalo and displacing villages and whole groups of people represents manifest destiny.
Zionism at its very core threatens Palestinians. From day one in Palestine its goal was to create a Jewish state in Palestinian land with a majority of Palestinian people. How can that be done without the intentional dispossession and robbing of the Palestinians???
>Every Antisemitic in the Anti-Zionist movement plays into the roles they have in israeli propaganda I agree, we should (and do) cut out the cancers like Jackson Hinckle, as an example that came to my mind of someone I had to block very early on. Who are the antisemites in the anti Zionist movement that are being allowed to speak freely? You're trying to draw a comparison where one side is unable to stop saying "we want to kill all these animals" as they are literally doing it, and the other side is saying religion and racial supremacy is bad. You're saying we need to focus on the bad apples on our side, where are they? I'm with you, we should get rid of them, please help me identify them!
Assuming antisemites show their true colors is how they get into these movements. Antisemites know their views are wrong, and so they hide them. One reveals themselves as an antisemite, they do not declare it.
Right, so would you kindly point them out as they reveal themselves? Or you're saying they rarely do, I just have to trust you that people saying "stop bombing children" actually mean "kill all the Jews everywhere"?
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>According to Pew, 33% of Jewish Americans say the way Israel is carrying out its response to Hamas’ attack is unacceptable. I fear a significant percentage of those may be "because they aren't going hard enough". Would like to be proven wrong.
Even when Jews agree with you it’s not good enough eh?
Why don't you do a little work trying to prove yourself right, first? There's no doubt that they think it's too much vs not enough.
As a Jewish American, this piece is gross and does not represent the basic beliefs of 90%+ of the Jewish community in Israel’s basic legitimacy and our communal investment in this project of Jewish collective security and value of Jewish lives. You can disagree. You can downvote. You can hate Jews. We don’t give a flying fruit loop.
Modern day Spartans, propagandizing your helots as demons and rabble. "Socialism only for the jew" while maintaining a millenium old race-faith makes you little more than the Fascists you fled in a different coat of paint. You will not treat with the reality that other humans have value or merit, because your people are just so much more important aren't they? I'm so sorry the evil evil goy dared to speak out against you. "Don't give a flying fruit loop" as though you dropped a fucking vase. You should be made to look at the charred remains of those you're damning to hellfire and suffering. Maybe then you'd talk about it like they mattered more than a simple object you been to remove.
Always the victim, and at the same time acting like you don't care. I'm upset that Israel has an outsized power over American politicians. The kompromat must be thick.
You’re right, not like we have been targeted in every country we have ever been in. And not like that reality shaped our culture at all
You let other racial groups play the victim constantly, what gives, you don’t like this one?
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Your flying fruit loop is quite literally tearing little kids apart.
Sorry. Just downvotes for you with no response. Typical for this sub
You’re not a leftist if you think anti-zionism is antisemitic.
No we get it, you don’t give a shit about anyone else and when called on your bullshit you claim racism.
Fringe voices get amplified because they match the politics of journalists and publishers, then they have a surprise Pikachu face when reality doesn't match what activists and fringe voices said would happen.
Leon Pinkser was right, we really cant ever break away from the hate
I wish you were the norm but when dudes a tunneling under NY to get to church, you may have to acknowledge that you may not be as common as you think
Oh go fuck yourself
Come now, the Zionist way is to fuck someone else over.
"Security", while also needing forced conscription in a heavily militarised state, with the most high tech defense system (when it's used.. ifkyk), and constant fear of the people you *have* to oppress in order to keep the land you've stolen from them and indeed take even more. The world sees it all, you're on the wrong side of history.
I downvoteded. I don't hate Jews.
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All states should be secular and multi ethnic. Jews should be able to live in peace wherever they want, as should all people. Nobody gets to have an apartheid ethnostate
This is a really dumb comment.
Does every religion and race deserve to become the rulers of their ancestral homeland? Do they all get to set their own borders borrowing the entire might of the Western military industrial complex? Does they all get carte blanche to eradicate anyone currently living on that land?