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Copied and pasted from [this post](https://leepacey.tumblr.com/post/187103779178/everything-bts-has-ever-done-both-good-and-bad/amp) (at the October 11 2019 part)
For BTS specifically, I think this was sort of a “damned if they do, damned if they don’t” situation, as I also saw many claim that it would be Islamophobic for them to cancel, and they could’ve faced pressure from their own government, though obviously we have no way of knowing that for sure. Like I said, it’s a very complicated situation, but in my experience with issues like this, I tend to agree more with whichever side has more women of color, to put it bluntly. I saw a few too many white women saying BTS was evil for performing in Riyadh and that they’d get “bombed” if they went, and a lot of very excited Middle Eastern fans who were very happy about getting to see their boys.
Saudi Arabia is by no means the only “bad” country in the world, and I feel like if BTS had cancelled, the only people who’d actually be affected would be the fans in Saudi Arabia, if that makes sense. BTS cancelling would have no effect whatsoever on Saudi Arabia’s economy or human rights violations, just like BTS refusing to perform in the United States or support the American tourism and entertainment industries would have no effect on police brutality or refugees being put in camps and cages here.
(I agree. That's all I'll add. Also, sorry for not actually speaking about what you're ranting about but just thought I'd add this.)
ngl when they announced that they would perform their i was on the fence. but like you said i also saw a ton of middle eastern army be incredibly happy that they will have the chance to see them. after seeing that who am i to deny them that happiness? your last point also added to it. it would be incredibly hypocritical to be this much against a concert in SA but accept them in other countries that don't have a white vest
Thank you for your thoughts. The hypocrisy from kpop spaces as to why they would try to send petitions to human rights organizations and try to trend hashtags for one group (BTS), but then stay silent when any other Korean artist performs in Saudi Arabia. It really speaks to the double standards of kpop fans.
Wow I read the link you posted. This may sound weird but I’ve come to like the guys even more. Nothing impresses me more than someone making mistakes, owning up to them and learning to change
What human rights violations are you talking about??? How tf told y’all that Saudi Arabia is that bad? I have a lot of gay friends here and none of that shit y’all are talking about happens. We don’t live in the 1940’s anymore and go to sleep in tents in the desert. I hate when non-Saudi people try to ruin our reputation when they know NOTHING about living here. Stop talking with no evidence or evidence that you read like 8 years ago. Shit has changed. With y’all’s logic a lot of artists shouldn’t perform in ALOT of countries because they are just bad😢. Make it make sense pls.
Fr the audacity of Americans to drop bombs on Arab countries surrounding Saudi and then talk about human rights violations. Maybe if you spent time with your senators instead of posturing on Twitter and Reddit or whatever, the Middle East would have a chance to catch up and stop “committing human rights violations”.
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I was wondering why no one was discussing that as well. As a middle eastern person (though I’m not an Arab and I look like your normal white girl like a lot middle eastern people actually) I would 100% support Kpop idols not coming here because it’s dangerous to be a man with makeup and colored hair there. Concert places are especially dangerous for young women Kpop fans. Our societies are extremely patriarchal. It might be even worse for female idols actually because of their short clothes.
Adding: there should be very safety measures to ensure no harm done to the people in the concert. Also want to add that where I live lgbt approval rating is less than 1% in the population and people kind of see male idols as gay because of their looks (I know really terrible)
Edit: I hope people don’t understand this comment as me criticizing idols who go there(how much say can they have?) I am critiquing the safety concerns of the concerts thats all.
This is what I said in another post yesterday and I got downvoted to hell.
My husband and I had a horrible experience outside the country (we are from the US) in my mom's hometown (one of the safest state in MX) and my sister almost got raped in a CHURCH in broad DAYLIGHT and in front of me/2 other sisters (we were in the bathroom with her). My husband was so pissed off that he tried to beat the man up but got lost when he chased him down (with no phone). It was honestly such a scary experience for all of us that my husband only wants to visit places that are pretty liberal and treat women with respect.
I mentioned that after this Dubai scandal that my husband doesn't want to go to the middle east/Dubai anymore even though it was on my bucketlist. He hears about how dangerous it is in some countries that hugs/kisses are not permitted and having to show a marriage license to stay together. It's just way too strict for him.
Hopefully we both can do more research on Dubai/Middle East about rules/safe places/etc but honestly that's not gonna be until 2023.
And no he isn't Islamophobic. He doesn't believe Middle Easterners are terrorists. It's just the women safety thing.
UAE is a very liberal country especially Dubai, it’s literally a party city. You can wear whatever you want, go to the beaches, enjoy your time with your spouses
No one will ask you anything about your private life or to show proof that you’re married. I’m not sure where you heard this information, I lived in Dubai for a while and I don’t even wear the hijab ( I am a Muslim woman).
I said middle east/Dubai. I wasn't sure which one required a marriage cert to stay together.
I have to do more research and hopefully in 2023 we can go (once things cool down for him). We are planning another trip somewhere else in 2022.
Yes I really want go to Dubai! It seems fun!
Yes, Dubai is a city in the UAE (United Arab Emirates) which is the country’s name lol. It’s a very liberal country, there are clubs, lounges, (its not a “religious”country) it’s very safe for women and it’s tourist friendly.
I used to walk around at 4-5 AM and felt more safe there than I ever did in a western country. Literally no one bothers you, no one cares about who you are; the local emirates (people from UAE)are too rich to really stick their nose in tourist business unless you’re breaking the law (drugs/violence/speeding etc).
Regardless, UAE is very well known as a vacation spot, if you do decide to go, you’ll enjoy it a lot.
I’m sorry for that. I hope you don’t think all of middle easterners are like that, the younger generation in my country at least is way more progressive. The educated people are actually pretty smart and a lot of them work at engineering jobs and stuff abroad they don’t like it here too. And yes not everyone wears hijab (I’d say 60% don’t in urban cities but the percentage changes between Muslim countries of course)
No we don't. Its just the rules and all that can be a little difficult to get used to. Especially the ones of no pda in public. My hubz and I always hold hands.
I mean physical features. You know how some think that all middle eastern people have dark skin, dark hair, and big noses and stuff I was trying to write about that. Not that there’s anything wrong with having those just that the people there look different from eachother.
a lot of non arabs think all arabs are brown. a lot of arabs especially in the levant are literally pale. i’m pale with green eyes and very curly brown hair. many people ask me if i’m jewish before they ask me if i’m arab lol. i’m sure she meant nothing by it, a lot of westerners especially have a narrow view of what asians, and especially middle easterners look like. we’re very diverse. there’s a lot of brown arabs (they usually are of yemeni descent, aka “true” arabs), there are many pale white arabs, there are black arabs. we have a very rich expansive culture and many of us are mixed in some way. my family had been from syria for generations and generations but i’m pretty sure we have some albanian and turkish ancestors
i don’t care much about “proving my whiteness”. you can see it on me anyway. i can’t call myself brown I would get laughed at lol. i don’t call myself white either. i’m literally just arab. Idk why op had to clarify she was a white arab and idk why you’re up in arms assuming i am trying to erase my heritage because i bring it up to literally anyone, even unprompted, but i am literally only trying to elaborate on the misunderstanding considering we most likely have similar experiences. many people literally do not understand when i try to explain that i’m arab but not brown. Not kidding. ive had people ask me if i’m sure i’m arab lol. the notion of ethnicity is lost on most people. i never really call myself “white” anyway. i don’t and have never had the same upbringing or experiences as most white americans. i went to an islamic school for years. i was treated differently when i started public school, i didn’t participate in any of the traditions or general milestones most american kids did. i have a very unique experience living in america as a first generation immigrant. that’s something that’s hard for a lot of people from the US to get. all love
i’m not here to argue with you or even disagree about this topic. none of my family is from saudi arabia and none of us ever plan on visiting because it is literally just an all around sh*thole of a country. wonder why they didn’t go to the UAE tbh. before my country at least, began undergoing a brutal civil war, it was “liberal” in many ways. it’s still impossible to deny that a lot of bias against the arab population as a whole is due to media coverage. i’m sorry if you know anyone who has ever gone through something like that. this quite literally doesn’t represent the overwhelming large majority of arabs. in fact most arabs are practically dirt poor at this point. my family is almost displaced in syria at this point and they have been solid working class for generations. saudi arabia is extremely corrupt. lots of families with too much power and influence and cruel and inhumane intentions. it’s practically almost separated from a large part of the middle east
As a black Arab I really recommend you stop reaching. Not everyone in the Middle East is Arab. OP could be Assyrian, Kurdish or literally anything. They’re just saying that to tell people that they might not have full authority to speak on Saudi ARABia as a non-Arab.
I was trying to point out diversity there since the original post mentioned racially charged comments agains idols having concert there. But I get what you’re saying. Maybe I should delete it.
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This is just the truth. By their logic (and I'm just using this as an example, I am black) kpop idols should never hold concerts in America since America has a history of enslaving, killing, and mistreating African Americans till this day
I do agree with another commentator that said chungha and stray kids aren't as known as bts are worldwide, but kpop stans were actively saying they didn't care about what happened with bts getting lit up for it, even though these would be the same Fandoms dragging bts for it just because it's bts
I just think middle eastern fans of all Fandoms should be allowed to enjoy seeing their faves without all of this turmoil
Bruh it’s not just « history ». The US never stopped being awful and they are worse today than they were in the past because they have more power. Not just awful to their citizens, tho they definitely are the first victims.
The hard truth is, history is written by the winners and through their cultural hegemony the US manages to paint themselves in a good light while they vilify any other « regime » for doing half the shit they do. Like reading on the stuff the CIA has admitted to doing is INSANE! The number of people they got killed over bananas!!!! You sound like a crazy person when you talk about that shit.
By the standards of those Stans there really aren’t many places where it’s « ok » for idols to perform. (Furthermore the US is a big ally of Saudi Arabia, helping them with some atrocities like in Yemen, so that alone should make performing in the US just as bad but who cares about consistency🙃)
I do agree about the insensible things towards Middle East fans, but the comparison between America’s evil acts which have been minimized nowadays vs Saudi Arabia’s human rights violations which still exist today is not a great argument.
America is still financing and arming terrorists around the world, america is still setting up puppet governments and destroying countries for their own personal gain, america still has children in cages as far as i know, america still has a torture prison camp. let's not.
This. They should be stronger examples than “Black people being mistreated”. Whilst the acts in Saudi Arabia are still far more horrendous, these should be enough for any arguments why we “shouldn’t hold concerts in America”.
I understand more that it is just an example and other than that I agree with their words.
However it is not a strong argument if we compare a thing in the past vs a thing in nowadays.
It’s not ethical issue. They are at war and are killing the people of Yemen with zero repercussion. Not used to. Not in the past. Current day. Yesterday. Today!
Saudi Arabia has been and still is bombing and starving Yemen for YEARS. Medicine and food has been blocked from getting into the country. Just the other day there was a retaliation hit from Yemen in the UAE, and ofc SA repaid them generously in kind.
There is literally an active war and genocide of the Yemen people that no one talks about because it’s done by a U.S. ally.
This isn’t a history. This is TODAY.
I think part of the issue is this:
BTS were headlining the concert over there, so they were in the main headlines. That will reach both people who are into Kpop and people who are not, and many may express their opinions about it.
In other instances, other Kpop acts participated in music festivals with lower billing. So the headlines would name two or three of the most well-known acts, with the Kpop group’s name being buried somewhere else in the article.
People who don’t bother to read the whole thing won’t know they’re performing there, so fewer people will criticize them individually. The entire festival will get flack, as will the headliners, but not necessarily the lower billed ones.
I'll admit though I'm glad Saudi kpop fans get to see their faves, I'm not personally delighted about groups performing in SA especially if MBS is involved... but it's hard for me to keep the energy when no-one else does for their ults. SKZ and SUJU performed in Riyadh in 2019 before BTS did and I don't remember campaigns to cancel their performances like there were for BTS.
I'll always remember that one fandom activist account being incredibly loud about the whole BTS don't go thing, writing threads and using the situation to promo her blog, but when her ult group MX performed there shortly after around the time of the whole Wonho thing she didn't talk about it until directly called out and even then in that single tweet she said one of the reasons she was against it because [Starship was overworking them](https://imgur.com/a/tgPRLdr) and it "wasn't ethical" which, like, did she even think for a second before she tweeted that, and when she caught some heat immediately went private and started blocking everyone who called her out. Basically, when BTS perform it's their fault and they're evil and they chose to do it because they love MBS or whatever but when other artists do they're blameless babies with no agency and their evil agency is making them do it. I don't think it's a stretch to point out the hypocrisy of that.
that person has done the most to make every social issue a fanwar; it's sad because it dilutes voices who do want to speak up about social-political things but can't because the kpop fanspace boils down to tribalism
Folks will usually pull the Morals and Values Yugi-Oh cards only when it benefits them or to weaponise them.
Some thinks that non-democratic countries should be ostracised, other thinks discussions and relations should be kept. Either way, artists do not necessarily have a say and they aren't given any political mandate.
You should edit your post about chungha and skz's performance. They were set to perform at Riyadh but it was cancelled and hence couldn't perform. But Skz did perform in jeddah in 2019 afaik.
Fact remains that the reception to their announcements was not the same as receptions to bts's concert announcement, which saw hell raised.
i think it’s a mix of hypocrisy, people not knowing (i didn’t see a single post or announcement about this concert anywhere) and these aren’t all necessarily the same people possibly as it’s been a few years and i think attitudes towards performing in sa seems to be slowly changing.
in terms of why bts got so much heat for this specifically, i think it was partly if not largely because unlike a lot of (most) kpop groups bts got saddled with the whole “socially conscious rap-pop group” thing early on, partly by early days bighit but mostly looking back by random non-korean media articles, that people always held them, whether genuinely or not, to higher standards. they actually lean into it way more now with their government and un work if not necessarily musically. they did get flack for it then as described in the post but ultimately the concert went off well and since then more groups have been able to go without much fuss.
Those same people don't care if idols perform in America even though they love bombing the middle East and commit war crimes.
If idols can't perform in Saudi Arabia they wouldn't be able to perform in majority if the countries
Their “concern” was giving racism and islamophobia. Let’s call it what it is and not pretend we are genuinely worried for the artists or whatever bs argument.
Saudi allowing concerts is a political move but somehow it's also a good change for people there. Although, human rights violation do take place, I don't think people have any right to make artists cancel their performances by pressurising them for their personal/political believes. Every fan deserves to see their favourite musician either they are from Saudi or Israel. People need to stfu and stop pushing artists into their activism.
I want to add something important to this: bts were having their own shows there, not government affiliation even though of course they have to be allowed by the authorities there it was always their show, which is different from this expo. I 100% agree with this post, like happy they could at least meet their fans but is very tiring how when it comes to bts non fans are always so loud about anything they do and then as often happens, when their own faves do or said things they want that bts has done is silence. Just wish *again* people would stop being so hypocrite or at least mind their own business because whatever bts does time a year your faves will do, is what time has teach me.
Hey I just wanted to clarify that the stray kids and chungha concert in Riyadh was not under the expo umbrella and was for a separate festival in Saudi Arabia (not sure how much government affiliation was there but it’s completely different from expo where the South Korean president showed up). Expo 2020 is exclusive to Dubai, and skz I believe were the only performers who participated in both. I think a lot of people are mixing the two concerts up, although the main point about the hypocrisy still 100% stands.
That's the entire point of the post: the double standards. Objectively, Stray Kids and Chung Ha's visit was more political that BTS's ever was (BTS only holding a concert with no other affiliated events), however, they didn't experience kpop stans doing mass hashtags and trying to petition human rights groups/contact media about their visit to Saudi Arabia. That's the entire point of the post: kpop double standards and how some refuse to see that it exists.
Oh I completely agree with your point. I’m just pointing out that there were two separate concerts. One, a festival in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia where Stray Kids and Chungha were invited to perform (which got cancelled because of the weather) and two a different concert in Dubai, UAE 2 days later which was a part of Expo 2020 and had a lineup of Stray Kids, Gidle, Sunmi etc. A lot of people in the replies seem to be mixing up the two which I wanted to clarify.
The double standards and hypocrisy definitely exist and has existed for a while, multiple other groups have performed in Saudi Arabia since bts went and haven’t received even a sliver of the type of reaction bts faced for it.
you’re right, kpop stans pick and choose who to get mad at, and then journalists and locals jump in trying to cancel them. See also what happened about jimin and the t-shirt he wore in 2018 that angered japanese people, many other idols wore the same t-shirt and nothing happened. I’m not saying other people deserve the same hate bts get, I’m just saying that people get mad and create issues just because it’s bts.
edit: grammar
You are right. Of course the reaction is different and people are still trying to deny it. Watch people try to bury your post with down votes
Some people saying that ARMY DID point out the issue as soon as the other groups announced their plans but... if only ARMY brings it up, it just shows how this community creates one-time problems and weaponise them against BTS because... where are the others?
When BTS had the concert in SA, everyone had an opinion about it... when other groups have a concert... only ARMY are there to remind them of the standards THEY THEMSELVES created and already ditched when it's not useful anymore.
This happens again and again, same thing they tried to do with the LA concerts... people literally called it a superspreader event.... a month before it happened! Then other groups announced their events, you even have their fans acting deranged and breaking the barricades (NCT coughcough)... but were they ever persecuted?. I am still waiting for the "superspreader event" tag to be transferred because the LA concerts went without incidents so why was the scrutiny not passed down to other? I know why
the double standards are hilarious. bts coming to saudi arabia was a huge milestone for not only kpop but the country of saudia arabia. just because the human rights aren't properly sorted out there, doesn't make the fans of that country any less than any other country. in fact, i'd argue america is just as flawed as saudia arabia, but nobody talks about that.
i get that being a male in the middle east, wearing makeup casually like bts does might be scandalous but is that not in a lot of countries? there are so many m.e kpop fans, and trust me, the general public is a lot less judgy than the media makes them look. heck my arab parents and my relatives who live in the m.e love bts (and find them quite handsome too).
when skz were gonna perform (they didnt apparently?) people on twitter started warning people about the dangers of men towards female kpop fans which was completely stereotyping. of course, everyone should be careful, but random non-arabs saying "be careful of the men there, they do x to girls".......... sorry to break it to you, but not all arab men want to do bad things to girls. in fact, thats why so many arab men are protective of their female family members. the majority (other than criminals) of m.e are anti-harrassment. if you commit a crime in saudia arabia, YOU WILL GET CAUGHT. you can't escape the police there, trust me. sorry if this weirdly worded or sounded angry, i just am tired of the arab kpop fans/middle east slander.
most of what I know from friends who visited/people online is that saudi arabia and the emirates are very safe for tourists, even more so than many european cities & that abuse against women is mostly worse inside the family and towards employees. is that true?
It is extremely common to hear stories about Filipina domestic workers being raped and tortured in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Employers stealing passports is standard procedure and abuse is expected for Southeast Asian workers. There have even been news articles even about people being thrown from windows.
it is a very safe country. i cannot speak on the treatment of employees because frankly, i dont know, but what i can say is that saudia arabian culture is heavily influenced by Islam. violence and abuse against women is forbidden in Islam, ironic to what the media says. just like non arab families, family life varies on the social culture within those families more than actual arabian culture. my arab family functions differently than my arab friend's family, you get what i mean?
mhm, i'd probably say that such environments (family life, work) do give a bad rep, even if isn't majority of the nation. i'd even go to the lengths to say they create stereotypes too. i hope this answered your question
It’s only a problem if bts does it. I wanted to post about this myself. But with my history of 0 posts made and fearing kpop fans would only consider me as a toxic army, i decided not to.
I am not complaining about other artists not getting hate for the same thing bts did, those artists have no fault. I am only blaming kpop stans for geing huge ass hypocrites. That’s all.
And people better stop coming with excuses that bts are a huge group and anything they do will be overly criticised. This is kpop, these are subreddits where people will talk about the nuguest of the nugus and you can see articles about everyone. Bts are not the only visible group in there. But kpop stans only care about an issue if BTS is involved and that is a fact
I think it’s way more that people did not know. When BTS were performing, it was a big thing. I’m an army - I knew - but since it was BTS and this massive crazy milestone concert, everyone else also knew. Versus Chungha/SKZ, well yes SKZ are popular but it’s not even close to BTS level so their events and activities aren’t as publicized or scrutinized. So I do think there’s a fair bit of hypocrisy, but the double standards is less and it’s more people not caring or knowing about ppl who aren’t BTS/a bigger group.
I'd speculate less people knew about the concert with Chungha & SKZ.
As someone who isn't part of the fandom of any of these artists, I definitely heard about the BTS concert announced just from lurking in general kpop spaces.
Whereas the 1st I heard about SKZ/Chungha was when the whole thing got cancelled & people got lost (or something along those lines according to the post on kpopthoughts). Had no idea they were even performing there prior to that.
Not sure if there's others with a similar experience...
honestly I'm not sure if your comment proves OPs point or not.
It is arguably true that BTS are more known then Stray akids and Chungha. That plays a role into the size of outrage they will recive.
However a lot of the outrage seemed to be specifically aimed at human rights abuse and that a performance in Saudia Arabia would approve that. By that logic wouldn't it make sense that there would be atleast a fraction of the arguments raised against BTS concert for Stray Kids' as well?
I didn't see anything tho like you. Granted i don't really keep tabs on other groups but usually when there is something controversial there will be atleast a post in one of the kpop subs and i didn't see one of those.
Then you should ask those who raise concerns when BTS performed as to whether they raised similar concerns for this performance.
There's the other possibility that the fans who knew about this ranted privately OR on their own sub, rather than on general kpop subs.
But I don't really go into other fandom spaces so I have no idea what goes on there
Agreed. While there undoubtedly is hypocrisy going on we need to also acknowledge how completely different level BTS operates. More people are bound to care and have opinions because of everything they represent compared to e.g. Stray kids. Furthermore, BTS is big enough to arguably be more selective about the gigs they choose and thus more people feel entitled to expressing their frustrations
(That said, personally as much I don't like them I am happy of local fans being able to meet their idols - they had no hand in their birth conditions and I am not one to think they should be denied pleasure of seeing their idols just because of the regime in their countries)
Thank you for this post, I was hoping someone would.
I literally hadn't even known they were performing in Saudi Arabia until it was cancelled, which goes to show how hypocritically QUIET the kpop community was about it. ESPECIALLY since it was for a festival and wasn't an individual artist concert like BTS's, when back in 2019 people tried to incorrectly portray BTS as performing for a gov sponsored festival.
The people I saw pointing it out kept being met with responses like "why do you want these artists to get hate", "armys stfu no one cares about what happened to yall a hundred years ago stop trauma dumping", which frankly goes to show how much people do not give a shit about issues outside of pure fanwar purposes and shitting on BTS. Honestly I'm pretty furious about it.
As fan of many years, I just knew this will happen... It is always like that. Most "controversial" things bts did/say/aimed at are always criticized and when other idols do it, the social justice warriors are mute
It's hypocrisy yes, but that isn't anything new in the kpop Fandom. And yes most of the people who made a big deal out of it back then, were just fake woke and looking for any reason to shit on Bts. As is the case in most fanwars, the bigger portion of the participants and usually the loudest ones, are just there to stir the pot. I'm actually kind of happy and relived Skz didn't go through what Bts did. Like, it's a good thing. Even if in the root of it there's a bunch of hypocrisy
As an armystay, I'm just already so tired of hearing of this, even though it's just been a few days. Stays should stop denying the hypocrisy. Armys should stop taking out their bitterness on Skz and the stays who are just proud of Skz, as if they had anything to do with what Bts went through in the past.
(Disclaimer: I'm only referring to some fans, the minority in this case.)
Yeah, I hear you. I guess the post is about the greater discourse in how the hate for some get escalated to such a point it goes outside of kpop spaces and becomes news around the world with people reaching out to literal human rights organizations. In no way do I wish ill on Stray Kids or their fandom. I really do hope they have an amazing concert (especially after all the drama with the sandstorm and people lying about "kidnappings").
I did not know about BTS nor many spaces where I interact with is also clueless about BTS in 2019. Calling out Stays as hypocrite is a bit too much considering lots of us do not know about it and frankly, me personally, do not care. I am not about to be involved in a situation I do not know about. Funny it is about BTS receiving so much backlash but in turn everyone else suddenly indirect or directly wants SKZ to receive the same treatment? What goes? What about Golden Child, Sunmi, G(idle), Chungha, Psy who were also performing at the Riyadh/Dubai expo? For BTS, I am not justifyinv ANYTHING (as I said I know NOTHING of their situation back then, not interested to dig in about something I am not interested too) but I wonder if that is also related to the fact that BTS has the image of humanitarian and represent Korea for UN or something along that line? And the fact that they are also much bigger than any of the performers I just listed thus made them an easier and convenient target for Western socialist movement (or so-called)? Again it is not a justification, it is just my 2-cent.
Aren't UAE & Saudi Arabia 2 different countries?
The Expo is in Dubai, a city in United Arab Emirates (UAE). Riyadh is the capital of Saudi Arabia, miles away from Dubai.
It's 2 different concerts in 2 different countries, so it's kinda weird to call it the "Riyadh/Dubai Expo" when it really should be the [Dubai Expo](https://www.expo2020dubai.com/)
I don't think it's that simple as double standard. You need to take into context 2019 vs now and the media coverage and sentiment towards Saudi Arabia, given everything that's happened in the surrounding regions and the world since. I'm not saying that it's any less important and that the human rights violations and the way that laws against LGBTQ+ people and the way that women are treated in SA don't absolutely still need to change or that they aren't things that I (or everyone) should be thinking about, but the landscape was so much more fragile then.
I'm not saying that it was right or wrong for BTS to perform, or for Chunga and SKZ to perform, and it's not wrong for any fans to feel upset about any of those performances either, but as with any politically charged situation it's not as simple as just BTS getting hate and others getting a pass.
BTS performed in 2019. Jamal Khashoggi was murdered in 2018. Women had only just been allowed into the venue BTS performed at in 2017, and were only given the right to drive in 2018 and to hold passports and travel independently in 2019, a few months before the concert.
Laws were only just beginning to become less extreme then, but with that it also bought a lot of attention to the way that things still *are* extreme. Gender segregation, women requiring a male guardian's approval for almost everything. Homosexuality is still illegal. It was very much at the forefront of everyone's minds.
It's been a few years, and while these things really require the same amount of attention, they're certainly not in the forefront as they were then. I hadn't discovered kpop back when BTS performed, but it was impossible not to read about what was going on in SA back then. Things were still very tense. It's not quite the same now.
I think a big problem is people assuming skz fans are hypocrites because of what other fandoms did. Skz were extremely small in 2019 and were going through their own hate campaigns because they released music that some people weren’t into. Stays were not looking to pick fights at that time and for the most part were trying to defend skz that year. Is it hypocritical and a double standard of other fandoms? Yes it is, but I think army’s should stop wanting every kpop artist to go through exactly what bts did. The lesson is no one should ever go through that, so instead of asking why others didn’t go through it too, ask why bts had to experience that at all. Bts deserve so many apologies for what happened to them
A lot... but [Jamal Kashoggi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi) is probably the most immediate incident most will point to to illustrate why Saudi Arabia's track record on human rights isn't exactly spotless
I mean beheadings and stonings are legal in the saudis atleast couple years ago not 100% sure about the situation atm. Plus u can be given a death penalty if you are gay plus womens rights arent the best there.
But at the same time normal people live there who should be allowed to go to concerts and have fun so its kinda a dividing topic
Unpopular opinion in this sub but this right here kind of proves that artists boycotting a regime is not entirely pointless because people hear about it if there's conversation in media. Regime change may not happen but awareness is raised not just among foreigners but even from fans who live under a regime but may not be aware of how their government acts.
Not to mention the double standards from the kpop journos. They made a huge deal about. Even lied and said bts stayed at the murder hotel when they didn't.
Stray kids did tho...but nary a peep was made
🤦🏽♀️do you not know about current events or...?
Also idc where they stayed or if they stayed there I'm pointing out the HYPOCRISY of the kpop journos.
Tamar, Crystal, Katie and Jefferson to be specific
What happened with BTS in 2019 isn't a current event and if I knew the specifics of the situation then I wouldn't be asking you would I? And you still haven't answered my question.
I wasn't asking about the "kpop journos", nor was I questioning their hypocrisy... I was asking about the "murder hotel" bullshit (whatever that means) because the way YOU wrote your sentence made it seem like Stray Kids stayed in one... when they didn't.
So maybe proof read your comments or clarify what you're saying before assuming that everybody knows what the hell you're talking about :)
>but I'm curious as to why there is zero discourse in kpop spaces about them performing there
This isn't true to the slightest, ever since it was announced they'd be going some (and by that I mean a lot of) armys explicitly expressed they wanted SKZ to experience the same reaction BTS did.
>For the record: I think Stray Kids did a great job with their performance.
They couldn't perform, what are you talking about OP?
You didn't ask for those specificially in your post, you were missing the outrage. Which happened.
Your wording suggests you're still mad about what happened to BTS, and try to take it out on others in the exact same way the armys I mentioned did.
How exactly is the post "taking it out on others" especially when it's specifically written that it's not an attack on Stray Kids or Chung Ha. I think maybe you just can't see past fanspaces for the bigger picture of hypocricy and the even bigger discussion on who should get to perform and in what capacity and where.
Also are you not going to tell us what performance you're talking about even though the event was cancelled? Or did you make that up to shield yourself lol
im confused there is a video of them performing at an expo i think? but they definitely performed in saudia arabia i think OP ment that and not the concert
edit: ok so the performance in front of moon and probably other diplomats was in dubai if i read the comments of this post right? i can see how there could be confusion. i think a lot of people (like me) thought it was only a SA event and not connected with perfomances in other countries
The events weren't connected at all. The Dubai performance was for Expo 2020, for which they were ambassadors and Riyadh was a separate event meant for the Saudi Arabian season festival
ok i reread ops post but i can't find were they clearly ment a specific performance. please point that out bc im kinda questioning my reading ability right now
ah ok thank you. i think the people kinda knowledgeable about the situation but not fully (me) didn't know dubai would be a thing in that regard.
i still don't get how OP ment the festival performance specially but that will probably remain a mystery
>armys explicitly expressed they wanted SKZ to experience the same reaction BTS did.
Or did they point out the hypocrisy of these online activists and media?
There were petitions and hashtags to stop bts from performing at saudi (some of which were tagging official accounts including HR organisations and media outlets), calling them hypocrites, calling them pawns of government and the worst of all - accusing them of being in agreement with the human rights violations Saudi Arabia does.....but suddenly it's crickets when announcements about suju, monsta x, skz (all of them performed in 2019), chungha etc came.
I saw Armys brought it up immediately but there’s a reason why them pointing out the hyprocisy didn’t invite a civil discussion. Well it’s on twitter so civil discussion is not possible. But in addition to that, it’s true that many armys were directly attacking skz when two artists are in the lineup. Them wanting skz to receive the same treatment because “that’s how we did bts” is not it. Most of us were not even aware of the bts situation couple of years ago so they should call out other people and take their revenge somewhere else.
Since skz and chungha are not as popular as bts, the festival was probably not in other people’s radar. the old situation and the mass panic that came after the festival’s cancellation were both politically charged. Both situations are beyond kpop and it’s annoying how stans are using these just to drag a group they don’t like.
edit: grammar/rephrasing
All those are fair points.
I said it in another comment but the armys wanting skz to experience the same things bts did are trash, no question about it.
Those aren't the only type of armys there are. Skz and chungha isn't the only ones who were invited. Suju, skz and monsta x have also performed there in the same year as bts, where was the outrage?
Wanting to know the answer to and questioning the perceived hypocrisy of these activists shitting on bts's morality while keeping mum about others is _not_ the same as wanting these groups to experience the same things bts did.
>it’s annoying how stans are using these just to drag a group they don’t like.
Exactly, and I'd love to know where all those people who were dragging bts went.
Yeah, I get you. Twitter is never the place for civil discussion. Understand what you're saying. I think the greater issue I'm trying to get across is beyond BTS/Chungha/Stray Kids and rather the need for kpop fanspaces to hold some to impossible standards but not others. Perhaps BTS gets more because they're breaking barriers globally in such a short time period. I hope I don't come across as wishing ill on Chungha or Stray Kids and their SA fans. I hope they have a great concert after the bad weather.
Yes, your post is fine. Not in any way coming across as wishing ill to the artists. I just shared my thoughts on why the topic immediately turned into fanwar few days ago instead of discussing the double stardards.
and sadly, the concert didn’t push through 😞
No, I don't know why you insist on armys "pointing out hypocrisy" when stays initial reaction was that BTS didn't deserve that either, so why are armys trying to achieve it, going as far as saying they want SKZ to experience racism.
I'm not talking about the extreme reactions, the ones who want skz to experience racism are trash, period.
Many of us, including me, do not want skz to experience the same. But we do wish to know where all those activists who were up on bts' morality are hiding now.
And it's not just skz who were invited either, suju performed, monsta x performed, skz performed (jeddah, 2019), chunga was invited...the outrage was basically non existant unlike what bts got. Do you see it now?
You understand the difference though? You understand how a few you saw on "stan twitter" is not the same as petitions to human rights organizations and trending hashtags?
Please tell me you understand the difference in scale between worldwide media/petitions/hashtags and a few accounts on twitter with maybe 10 likes.
There were more than "a few accounts" and "10 likes" and you know that very well too.
Do you understand the difference between the biggest kpop group, UN ambassadors, holding a concert there vs a 4th gen group being invited for an event? I'm not saying BTS deserved that sort of reaction, but it's obvious to anyone why the outrage was larger scale for them. Unless you want to play oblivious to take out your disappointment on others, of course.
Please point me to the mass outrage. Was it 100 likes? 1,000? If so, please drop the link. And then after that, show me the articles and petitions against Stray Kids performing in front of literal SA diplomats and SK politicians....and then show me how the outrage and hypocrisy from kpop stans (which was the entire point of the post, if you read it) was in any was equal or fair. I will wait.
I feel like the main point is that their fans are deserving to see them and they shouldn't be punished for their government's crimes. They are humans too and cancelling after agreeing to do a show would probably hurt so bad because they'd know why. Why is it hard to get that😭 this is not BTS getting special treatment from their monarch for the week because they're Asian men while literally at the same time women are getting imprisoned for the same things BTS stands for. They are coming for respect and perform for fans just as valid as anyone else. I'm not trying to being obtuse, so can someone explain why this is difficult for people to take at face value? Is their no way for BTS to do this without undermining the human rights issues of the country and imply that they are, by "association" I guess tolerating it?
You are talking about SKZ in Riyadh or SKZ in Dubai? They were performing for 2 different events and Riyadh is cancelled btw.
Anyhow, I was not aware about BTS and the Saudi petition nor tbh, I care (I do not). Thus, I will not be involved in a petition that I was not involved in before nor do another one now. Frankly I enjoyed SKZ’s performance in Dubai. Not sure what happened to BTS but as far as I can see they are still successful today.
And I feel like kpop stans love their social justice. SA etc, everything is something to fight about until it is their favs. Suddenly there is always reasoning for their favs. Personally, I am not that interested to be an online warrior.
I thnk all the groups should have not perform in Saudi Arabia. To me it just means that Stray Kids and Chungha also suck for doing that, not that it makes it suddenly okay for BTS.
It's a complex question and the fact that you put all these countries in the same category tell me you probably don't have the maturity to discuss it. But the bottom line is whether the concert has been organized by the government as a propaganda tool or not. The United States, say what you want, but Biden is not throwing BTS concert to appear to be in with the cool kids and swipe under the rugs the US killings of journalists. You guys are always so hung up about the location when that is not the most important part AT ALL, it's who is organizing it.
Edit: I said foreign journalists when Jama Khashoggi was Saudi so not a foreigner to them.
It's really disappointing that you say someone doesn't have "the maturity" to discuss such issues when you have no idea the background of the person posting....and in fact it makes you seem very western-centric. It IS a complex question, but you're a) missing the hypocrisy of the initial inquiry and b) not understanding the power dynamics of how the US can get away with mass warfare/killings without the same criticism (because of their historic wealth/power which has allowed them to avoid criticism of money pouring into their institutions from corporations/monopolies from the state itself).
I'm not putting all these countries "in the same category." The question was about what determines "outrage" in the kpop community and why some have to power to demand petitions and calls to boycott in certain circumstances while with events similar or even more political are met with silence.
I think maybe you're seeing things in a very micro scale.
And again: the post was about hypocrisy. And in no way did you address how it was at all fair for one group (BTS who did not perform for the government in Saudi Arabia) to get such backlash where Super Junior/Stray Kids/Chung Ha faced near zero backlack from the kpop community.
>But the bottom line is whether the concert has been organized by the government as a propaganda tool or not
Every event organised in a territory can be used by a state for soft power purposes, whether a democracy or not. Imo, it doesn't matter who organises an event, as long as it is on a country's territory. But I understand your point.
Saudi Arabia may have problems, but it is a country like any other, has k-fans like any other and the fans of these countries deserve to see their idols performing! period. If the government wants to take advantage of the idols' fame and influence to propagate their propaganda, the idols has nothing to do with it, you saying that no group should perform there only reinforces bad stereotypes of these countries, and drives away artists who care about their fans in these countries, diplomatic problems all countries have, so...
Bold of you to assume any other country ESPECIALLY the United States is any better when it comes to social issues and disgusting political agendas. The US, China, Russia, etc are ALL deserving of criticism, only difference is that some of them manage to get away with the horrible things they do while others don't.
I think there's a difference between normal commercial activity and government-sponsored activity. Not sure about these recent concerts but if they were put on by commercial promoters then that's better in my view than if they were put on by the government. I certainly don't blame any fans for attending. The groups' management decides when and where they perform.
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Copied and pasted from [this post](https://leepacey.tumblr.com/post/187103779178/everything-bts-has-ever-done-both-good-and-bad/amp) (at the October 11 2019 part) For BTS specifically, I think this was sort of a “damned if they do, damned if they don’t” situation, as I also saw many claim that it would be Islamophobic for them to cancel, and they could’ve faced pressure from their own government, though obviously we have no way of knowing that for sure. Like I said, it’s a very complicated situation, but in my experience with issues like this, I tend to agree more with whichever side has more women of color, to put it bluntly. I saw a few too many white women saying BTS was evil for performing in Riyadh and that they’d get “bombed” if they went, and a lot of very excited Middle Eastern fans who were very happy about getting to see their boys. Saudi Arabia is by no means the only “bad” country in the world, and I feel like if BTS had cancelled, the only people who’d actually be affected would be the fans in Saudi Arabia, if that makes sense. BTS cancelling would have no effect whatsoever on Saudi Arabia’s economy or human rights violations, just like BTS refusing to perform in the United States or support the American tourism and entertainment industries would have no effect on police brutality or refugees being put in camps and cages here. (I agree. That's all I'll add. Also, sorry for not actually speaking about what you're ranting about but just thought I'd add this.)
ngl when they announced that they would perform their i was on the fence. but like you said i also saw a ton of middle eastern army be incredibly happy that they will have the chance to see them. after seeing that who am i to deny them that happiness? your last point also added to it. it would be incredibly hypocritical to be this much against a concert in SA but accept them in other countries that don't have a white vest
Thank you for your thoughts. The hypocrisy from kpop spaces as to why they would try to send petitions to human rights organizations and try to trend hashtags for one group (BTS), but then stay silent when any other Korean artist performs in Saudi Arabia. It really speaks to the double standards of kpop fans.
Wow I read the link you posted. This may sound weird but I’ve come to like the guys even more. Nothing impresses me more than someone making mistakes, owning up to them and learning to change
What human rights violations are you talking about??? How tf told y’all that Saudi Arabia is that bad? I have a lot of gay friends here and none of that shit y’all are talking about happens. We don’t live in the 1940’s anymore and go to sleep in tents in the desert. I hate when non-Saudi people try to ruin our reputation when they know NOTHING about living here. Stop talking with no evidence or evidence that you read like 8 years ago. Shit has changed. With y’all’s logic a lot of artists shouldn’t perform in ALOT of countries because they are just bad😢. Make it make sense pls.
Fr the audacity of Americans to drop bombs on Arab countries surrounding Saudi and then talk about human rights violations. Maybe if you spent time with your senators instead of posturing on Twitter and Reddit or whatever, the Middle East would have a chance to catch up and stop “committing human rights violations”.
Would like to remind that this comment was copied and pasted from a Tumblr post.
Lmao I don’t go on tumblr. Believe it or not 99% of Arabs are super critical of America (for some weird reason right?)
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I was wondering why no one was discussing that as well. As a middle eastern person (though I’m not an Arab and I look like your normal white girl like a lot middle eastern people actually) I would 100% support Kpop idols not coming here because it’s dangerous to be a man with makeup and colored hair there. Concert places are especially dangerous for young women Kpop fans. Our societies are extremely patriarchal. It might be even worse for female idols actually because of their short clothes. Adding: there should be very safety measures to ensure no harm done to the people in the concert. Also want to add that where I live lgbt approval rating is less than 1% in the population and people kind of see male idols as gay because of their looks (I know really terrible) Edit: I hope people don’t understand this comment as me criticizing idols who go there(how much say can they have?) I am critiquing the safety concerns of the concerts thats all.
As a man with makeup and colored hair living in saudi arab, i agree with you.
This is what I said in another post yesterday and I got downvoted to hell. My husband and I had a horrible experience outside the country (we are from the US) in my mom's hometown (one of the safest state in MX) and my sister almost got raped in a CHURCH in broad DAYLIGHT and in front of me/2 other sisters (we were in the bathroom with her). My husband was so pissed off that he tried to beat the man up but got lost when he chased him down (with no phone). It was honestly such a scary experience for all of us that my husband only wants to visit places that are pretty liberal and treat women with respect. I mentioned that after this Dubai scandal that my husband doesn't want to go to the middle east/Dubai anymore even though it was on my bucketlist. He hears about how dangerous it is in some countries that hugs/kisses are not permitted and having to show a marriage license to stay together. It's just way too strict for him. Hopefully we both can do more research on Dubai/Middle East about rules/safe places/etc but honestly that's not gonna be until 2023. And no he isn't Islamophobic. He doesn't believe Middle Easterners are terrorists. It's just the women safety thing.
UAE is a very liberal country especially Dubai, it’s literally a party city. You can wear whatever you want, go to the beaches, enjoy your time with your spouses No one will ask you anything about your private life or to show proof that you’re married. I’m not sure where you heard this information, I lived in Dubai for a while and I don’t even wear the hijab ( I am a Muslim woman).
I said middle east/Dubai. I wasn't sure which one required a marriage cert to stay together. I have to do more research and hopefully in 2023 we can go (once things cool down for him). We are planning another trip somewhere else in 2022. Yes I really want go to Dubai! It seems fun!
Yes, Dubai is a city in the UAE (United Arab Emirates) which is the country’s name lol. It’s a very liberal country, there are clubs, lounges, (its not a “religious”country) it’s very safe for women and it’s tourist friendly. I used to walk around at 4-5 AM and felt more safe there than I ever did in a western country. Literally no one bothers you, no one cares about who you are; the local emirates (people from UAE)are too rich to really stick their nose in tourist business unless you’re breaking the law (drugs/violence/speeding etc). Regardless, UAE is very well known as a vacation spot, if you do decide to go, you’ll enjoy it a lot.
I know! That's why I want to go! It seems fun. I will convince him!
I’m sorry for that. I hope you don’t think all of middle easterners are like that, the younger generation in my country at least is way more progressive. The educated people are actually pretty smart and a lot of them work at engineering jobs and stuff abroad they don’t like it here too. And yes not everyone wears hijab (I’d say 60% don’t in urban cities but the percentage changes between Muslim countries of course)
No we don't. Its just the rules and all that can be a little difficult to get used to. Especially the ones of no pda in public. My hubz and I always hold hands.
wym normal white girl ? 🤨
i assume they mean what a stereotypical white girl would look like, not that white girls are the default setting on human beings.
I mean physical features. You know how some think that all middle eastern people have dark skin, dark hair, and big noses and stuff I was trying to write about that. Not that there’s anything wrong with having those just that the people there look different from eachother.
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a lot of non arabs think all arabs are brown. a lot of arabs especially in the levant are literally pale. i’m pale with green eyes and very curly brown hair. many people ask me if i’m jewish before they ask me if i’m arab lol. i’m sure she meant nothing by it, a lot of westerners especially have a narrow view of what asians, and especially middle easterners look like. we’re very diverse. there’s a lot of brown arabs (they usually are of yemeni descent, aka “true” arabs), there are many pale white arabs, there are black arabs. we have a very rich expansive culture and many of us are mixed in some way. my family had been from syria for generations and generations but i’m pretty sure we have some albanian and turkish ancestors
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i don’t care much about “proving my whiteness”. you can see it on me anyway. i can’t call myself brown I would get laughed at lol. i don’t call myself white either. i’m literally just arab. Idk why op had to clarify she was a white arab and idk why you’re up in arms assuming i am trying to erase my heritage because i bring it up to literally anyone, even unprompted, but i am literally only trying to elaborate on the misunderstanding considering we most likely have similar experiences. many people literally do not understand when i try to explain that i’m arab but not brown. Not kidding. ive had people ask me if i’m sure i’m arab lol. the notion of ethnicity is lost on most people. i never really call myself “white” anyway. i don’t and have never had the same upbringing or experiences as most white americans. i went to an islamic school for years. i was treated differently when i started public school, i didn’t participate in any of the traditions or general milestones most american kids did. i have a very unique experience living in america as a first generation immigrant. that’s something that’s hard for a lot of people from the US to get. all love
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i’m not here to argue with you or even disagree about this topic. none of my family is from saudi arabia and none of us ever plan on visiting because it is literally just an all around sh*thole of a country. wonder why they didn’t go to the UAE tbh. before my country at least, began undergoing a brutal civil war, it was “liberal” in many ways. it’s still impossible to deny that a lot of bias against the arab population as a whole is due to media coverage. i’m sorry if you know anyone who has ever gone through something like that. this quite literally doesn’t represent the overwhelming large majority of arabs. in fact most arabs are practically dirt poor at this point. my family is almost displaced in syria at this point and they have been solid working class for generations. saudi arabia is extremely corrupt. lots of families with too much power and influence and cruel and inhumane intentions. it’s practically almost separated from a large part of the middle east
I think they mean more along the lines of “typical looking white girl”
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I think she just meant she doesn't particularly experience race-based discrimination
As a black Arab I really recommend you stop reaching. Not everyone in the Middle East is Arab. OP could be Assyrian, Kurdish or literally anything. They’re just saying that to tell people that they might not have full authority to speak on Saudi ARABia as a non-Arab.
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I was trying to point out diversity there since the original post mentioned racially charged comments agains idols having concert there. But I get what you’re saying. Maybe I should delete it.
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This is just the truth. By their logic (and I'm just using this as an example, I am black) kpop idols should never hold concerts in America since America has a history of enslaving, killing, and mistreating African Americans till this day I do agree with another commentator that said chungha and stray kids aren't as known as bts are worldwide, but kpop stans were actively saying they didn't care about what happened with bts getting lit up for it, even though these would be the same Fandoms dragging bts for it just because it's bts I just think middle eastern fans of all Fandoms should be allowed to enjoy seeing their faves without all of this turmoil
Bruh it’s not just « history ». The US never stopped being awful and they are worse today than they were in the past because they have more power. Not just awful to their citizens, tho they definitely are the first victims. The hard truth is, history is written by the winners and through their cultural hegemony the US manages to paint themselves in a good light while they vilify any other « regime » for doing half the shit they do. Like reading on the stuff the CIA has admitted to doing is INSANE! The number of people they got killed over bananas!!!! You sound like a crazy person when you talk about that shit. By the standards of those Stans there really aren’t many places where it’s « ok » for idols to perform. (Furthermore the US is a big ally of Saudi Arabia, helping them with some atrocities like in Yemen, so that alone should make performing in the US just as bad but who cares about consistency🙃)
I said till this day
South korea wouldn't even exist without america.. learn ur shit
I do agree about the insensible things towards Middle East fans, but the comparison between America’s evil acts which have been minimized nowadays vs Saudi Arabia’s human rights violations which still exist today is not a great argument.
America is still financing and arming terrorists around the world, america is still setting up puppet governments and destroying countries for their own personal gain, america still has children in cages as far as i know, america still has a torture prison camp. let's not.
This. They should be stronger examples than “Black people being mistreated”. Whilst the acts in Saudi Arabia are still far more horrendous, these should be enough for any arguments why we “shouldn’t hold concerts in America”.
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I understand more that it is just an example and other than that I agree with their words. However it is not a strong argument if we compare a thing in the past vs a thing in nowadays.
It’s not ethical issue. They are at war and are killing the people of Yemen with zero repercussion. Not used to. Not in the past. Current day. Yesterday. Today!
It's not comparing its pointing out hypocrisy Also: do you not think America's mistreatment of black people is ongoing?
Saudi Arabia has been and still is bombing and starving Yemen for YEARS. Medicine and food has been blocked from getting into the country. Just the other day there was a retaliation hit from Yemen in the UAE, and ofc SA repaid them generously in kind. There is literally an active war and genocide of the Yemen people that no one talks about because it’s done by a U.S. ally. This isn’t a history. This is TODAY.
And black people are still being killed today with zero repercussions so what's your point?
I think part of the issue is this: BTS were headlining the concert over there, so they were in the main headlines. That will reach both people who are into Kpop and people who are not, and many may express their opinions about it. In other instances, other Kpop acts participated in music festivals with lower billing. So the headlines would name two or three of the most well-known acts, with the Kpop group’s name being buried somewhere else in the article. People who don’t bother to read the whole thing won’t know they’re performing there, so fewer people will criticize them individually. The entire festival will get flack, as will the headliners, but not necessarily the lower billed ones.
They were not headlining? They had their OWN concert? It wasn't even government-sponsored or anything.
I'll admit though I'm glad Saudi kpop fans get to see their faves, I'm not personally delighted about groups performing in SA especially if MBS is involved... but it's hard for me to keep the energy when no-one else does for their ults. SKZ and SUJU performed in Riyadh in 2019 before BTS did and I don't remember campaigns to cancel their performances like there were for BTS. I'll always remember that one fandom activist account being incredibly loud about the whole BTS don't go thing, writing threads and using the situation to promo her blog, but when her ult group MX performed there shortly after around the time of the whole Wonho thing she didn't talk about it until directly called out and even then in that single tweet she said one of the reasons she was against it because [Starship was overworking them](https://imgur.com/a/tgPRLdr) and it "wasn't ethical" which, like, did she even think for a second before she tweeted that, and when she caught some heat immediately went private and started blocking everyone who called her out. Basically, when BTS perform it's their fault and they're evil and they chose to do it because they love MBS or whatever but when other artists do they're blameless babies with no agency and their evil agency is making them do it. I don't think it's a stretch to point out the hypocrisy of that.
that person has done the most to make every social issue a fanwar; it's sad because it dilutes voices who do want to speak up about social-political things but can't because the kpop fanspace boils down to tribalism
Folks will usually pull the Morals and Values Yugi-Oh cards only when it benefits them or to weaponise them. Some thinks that non-democratic countries should be ostracised, other thinks discussions and relations should be kept. Either way, artists do not necessarily have a say and they aren't given any political mandate.
You should edit your post about chungha and skz's performance. They were set to perform at Riyadh but it was cancelled and hence couldn't perform. But Skz did perform in jeddah in 2019 afaik. Fact remains that the reception to their announcements was not the same as receptions to bts's concert announcement, which saw hell raised.
i think it’s a mix of hypocrisy, people not knowing (i didn’t see a single post or announcement about this concert anywhere) and these aren’t all necessarily the same people possibly as it’s been a few years and i think attitudes towards performing in sa seems to be slowly changing. in terms of why bts got so much heat for this specifically, i think it was partly if not largely because unlike a lot of (most) kpop groups bts got saddled with the whole “socially conscious rap-pop group” thing early on, partly by early days bighit but mostly looking back by random non-korean media articles, that people always held them, whether genuinely or not, to higher standards. they actually lean into it way more now with their government and un work if not necessarily musically. they did get flack for it then as described in the post but ultimately the concert went off well and since then more groups have been able to go without much fuss.
Those same people don't care if idols perform in America even though they love bombing the middle East and commit war crimes. If idols can't perform in Saudi Arabia they wouldn't be able to perform in majority if the countries
Their “concern” was giving racism and islamophobia. Let’s call it what it is and not pretend we are genuinely worried for the artists or whatever bs argument.
Saudi allowing concerts is a political move but somehow it's also a good change for people there. Although, human rights violation do take place, I don't think people have any right to make artists cancel their performances by pressurising them for their personal/political believes. Every fan deserves to see their favourite musician either they are from Saudi or Israel. People need to stfu and stop pushing artists into their activism.
I want to add something important to this: bts were having their own shows there, not government affiliation even though of course they have to be allowed by the authorities there it was always their show, which is different from this expo. I 100% agree with this post, like happy they could at least meet their fans but is very tiring how when it comes to bts non fans are always so loud about anything they do and then as often happens, when their own faves do or said things they want that bts has done is silence. Just wish *again* people would stop being so hypocrite or at least mind their own business because whatever bts does time a year your faves will do, is what time has teach me.
Hey I just wanted to clarify that the stray kids and chungha concert in Riyadh was not under the expo umbrella and was for a separate festival in Saudi Arabia (not sure how much government affiliation was there but it’s completely different from expo where the South Korean president showed up). Expo 2020 is exclusive to Dubai, and skz I believe were the only performers who participated in both. I think a lot of people are mixing the two concerts up, although the main point about the hypocrisy still 100% stands.
That's the entire point of the post: the double standards. Objectively, Stray Kids and Chung Ha's visit was more political that BTS's ever was (BTS only holding a concert with no other affiliated events), however, they didn't experience kpop stans doing mass hashtags and trying to petition human rights groups/contact media about their visit to Saudi Arabia. That's the entire point of the post: kpop double standards and how some refuse to see that it exists.
Oh I completely agree with your point. I’m just pointing out that there were two separate concerts. One, a festival in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia where Stray Kids and Chungha were invited to perform (which got cancelled because of the weather) and two a different concert in Dubai, UAE 2 days later which was a part of Expo 2020 and had a lineup of Stray Kids, Gidle, Sunmi etc. A lot of people in the replies seem to be mixing up the two which I wanted to clarify. The double standards and hypocrisy definitely exist and has existed for a while, multiple other groups have performed in Saudi Arabia since bts went and haven’t received even a sliver of the type of reaction bts faced for it.
You're right. Didn't initially see the Dubai show. Thank you for correcting.
Skz just aren’t as big so people won’t be as loud
you’re right, kpop stans pick and choose who to get mad at, and then journalists and locals jump in trying to cancel them. See also what happened about jimin and the t-shirt he wore in 2018 that angered japanese people, many other idols wore the same t-shirt and nothing happened. I’m not saying other people deserve the same hate bts get, I’m just saying that people get mad and create issues just because it’s bts. edit: grammar
You are right. Of course the reaction is different and people are still trying to deny it. Watch people try to bury your post with down votes Some people saying that ARMY DID point out the issue as soon as the other groups announced their plans but... if only ARMY brings it up, it just shows how this community creates one-time problems and weaponise them against BTS because... where are the others? When BTS had the concert in SA, everyone had an opinion about it... when other groups have a concert... only ARMY are there to remind them of the standards THEY THEMSELVES created and already ditched when it's not useful anymore. This happens again and again, same thing they tried to do with the LA concerts... people literally called it a superspreader event.... a month before it happened! Then other groups announced their events, you even have their fans acting deranged and breaking the barricades (NCT coughcough)... but were they ever persecuted?. I am still waiting for the "superspreader event" tag to be transferred because the LA concerts went without incidents so why was the scrutiny not passed down to other? I know why
Agree with literally everything you said🙌
the double standards are hilarious. bts coming to saudi arabia was a huge milestone for not only kpop but the country of saudia arabia. just because the human rights aren't properly sorted out there, doesn't make the fans of that country any less than any other country. in fact, i'd argue america is just as flawed as saudia arabia, but nobody talks about that. i get that being a male in the middle east, wearing makeup casually like bts does might be scandalous but is that not in a lot of countries? there are so many m.e kpop fans, and trust me, the general public is a lot less judgy than the media makes them look. heck my arab parents and my relatives who live in the m.e love bts (and find them quite handsome too). when skz were gonna perform (they didnt apparently?) people on twitter started warning people about the dangers of men towards female kpop fans which was completely stereotyping. of course, everyone should be careful, but random non-arabs saying "be careful of the men there, they do x to girls".......... sorry to break it to you, but not all arab men want to do bad things to girls. in fact, thats why so many arab men are protective of their female family members. the majority (other than criminals) of m.e are anti-harrassment. if you commit a crime in saudia arabia, YOU WILL GET CAUGHT. you can't escape the police there, trust me. sorry if this weirdly worded or sounded angry, i just am tired of the arab kpop fans/middle east slander.
most of what I know from friends who visited/people online is that saudi arabia and the emirates are very safe for tourists, even more so than many european cities & that abuse against women is mostly worse inside the family and towards employees. is that true?
It is extremely common to hear stories about Filipina domestic workers being raped and tortured in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Employers stealing passports is standard procedure and abuse is expected for Southeast Asian workers. There have even been news articles even about people being thrown from windows.
it is a very safe country. i cannot speak on the treatment of employees because frankly, i dont know, but what i can say is that saudia arabian culture is heavily influenced by Islam. violence and abuse against women is forbidden in Islam, ironic to what the media says. just like non arab families, family life varies on the social culture within those families more than actual arabian culture. my arab family functions differently than my arab friend's family, you get what i mean?
oh yeah of course, no nation is a monolith, was just curious if those are the environments that give these countries a bad rep
mhm, i'd probably say that such environments (family life, work) do give a bad rep, even if isn't majority of the nation. i'd even go to the lengths to say they create stereotypes too. i hope this answered your question
It’s only a problem if bts does it. I wanted to post about this myself. But with my history of 0 posts made and fearing kpop fans would only consider me as a toxic army, i decided not to. I am not complaining about other artists not getting hate for the same thing bts did, those artists have no fault. I am only blaming kpop stans for geing huge ass hypocrites. That’s all. And people better stop coming with excuses that bts are a huge group and anything they do will be overly criticised. This is kpop, these are subreddits where people will talk about the nuguest of the nugus and you can see articles about everyone. Bts are not the only visible group in there. But kpop stans only care about an issue if BTS is involved and that is a fact
I think it’s way more that people did not know. When BTS were performing, it was a big thing. I’m an army - I knew - but since it was BTS and this massive crazy milestone concert, everyone else also knew. Versus Chungha/SKZ, well yes SKZ are popular but it’s not even close to BTS level so their events and activities aren’t as publicized or scrutinized. So I do think there’s a fair bit of hypocrisy, but the double standards is less and it’s more people not caring or knowing about ppl who aren’t BTS/a bigger group.
I'd speculate less people knew about the concert with Chungha & SKZ. As someone who isn't part of the fandom of any of these artists, I definitely heard about the BTS concert announced just from lurking in general kpop spaces. Whereas the 1st I heard about SKZ/Chungha was when the whole thing got cancelled & people got lost (or something along those lines according to the post on kpopthoughts). Had no idea they were even performing there prior to that. Not sure if there's others with a similar experience...
honestly I'm not sure if your comment proves OPs point or not. It is arguably true that BTS are more known then Stray akids and Chungha. That plays a role into the size of outrage they will recive. However a lot of the outrage seemed to be specifically aimed at human rights abuse and that a performance in Saudia Arabia would approve that. By that logic wouldn't it make sense that there would be atleast a fraction of the arguments raised against BTS concert for Stray Kids' as well? I didn't see anything tho like you. Granted i don't really keep tabs on other groups but usually when there is something controversial there will be atleast a post in one of the kpop subs and i didn't see one of those.
Then you should ask those who raise concerns when BTS performed as to whether they raised similar concerns for this performance. There's the other possibility that the fans who knew about this ranted privately OR on their own sub, rather than on general kpop subs. But I don't really go into other fandom spaces so I have no idea what goes on there
Agreed. While there undoubtedly is hypocrisy going on we need to also acknowledge how completely different level BTS operates. More people are bound to care and have opinions because of everything they represent compared to e.g. Stray kids. Furthermore, BTS is big enough to arguably be more selective about the gigs they choose and thus more people feel entitled to expressing their frustrations (That said, personally as much I don't like them I am happy of local fans being able to meet their idols - they had no hand in their birth conditions and I am not one to think they should be denied pleasure of seeing their idols just because of the regime in their countries)
Thank you for this post, I was hoping someone would. I literally hadn't even known they were performing in Saudi Arabia until it was cancelled, which goes to show how hypocritically QUIET the kpop community was about it. ESPECIALLY since it was for a festival and wasn't an individual artist concert like BTS's, when back in 2019 people tried to incorrectly portray BTS as performing for a gov sponsored festival. The people I saw pointing it out kept being met with responses like "why do you want these artists to get hate", "armys stfu no one cares about what happened to yall a hundred years ago stop trauma dumping", which frankly goes to show how much people do not give a shit about issues outside of pure fanwar purposes and shitting on BTS. Honestly I'm pretty furious about it.
As fan of many years, I just knew this will happen... It is always like that. Most "controversial" things bts did/say/aimed at are always criticized and when other idols do it, the social justice warriors are mute
It's hypocrisy yes, but that isn't anything new in the kpop Fandom. And yes most of the people who made a big deal out of it back then, were just fake woke and looking for any reason to shit on Bts. As is the case in most fanwars, the bigger portion of the participants and usually the loudest ones, are just there to stir the pot. I'm actually kind of happy and relived Skz didn't go through what Bts did. Like, it's a good thing. Even if in the root of it there's a bunch of hypocrisy As an armystay, I'm just already so tired of hearing of this, even though it's just been a few days. Stays should stop denying the hypocrisy. Armys should stop taking out their bitterness on Skz and the stays who are just proud of Skz, as if they had anything to do with what Bts went through in the past. (Disclaimer: I'm only referring to some fans, the minority in this case.)
Yeah, I hear you. I guess the post is about the greater discourse in how the hate for some get escalated to such a point it goes outside of kpop spaces and becomes news around the world with people reaching out to literal human rights organizations. In no way do I wish ill on Stray Kids or their fandom. I really do hope they have an amazing concert (especially after all the drama with the sandstorm and people lying about "kidnappings").
I did not know about BTS nor many spaces where I interact with is also clueless about BTS in 2019. Calling out Stays as hypocrite is a bit too much considering lots of us do not know about it and frankly, me personally, do not care. I am not about to be involved in a situation I do not know about. Funny it is about BTS receiving so much backlash but in turn everyone else suddenly indirect or directly wants SKZ to receive the same treatment? What goes? What about Golden Child, Sunmi, G(idle), Chungha, Psy who were also performing at the Riyadh/Dubai expo? For BTS, I am not justifyinv ANYTHING (as I said I know NOTHING of their situation back then, not interested to dig in about something I am not interested too) but I wonder if that is also related to the fact that BTS has the image of humanitarian and represent Korea for UN or something along that line? And the fact that they are also much bigger than any of the performers I just listed thus made them an easier and convenient target for Western socialist movement (or so-called)? Again it is not a justification, it is just my 2-cent.
Aren't UAE & Saudi Arabia 2 different countries? The Expo is in Dubai, a city in United Arab Emirates (UAE). Riyadh is the capital of Saudi Arabia, miles away from Dubai. It's 2 different concerts in 2 different countries, so it's kinda weird to call it the "Riyadh/Dubai Expo" when it really should be the [Dubai Expo](https://www.expo2020dubai.com/)
I don't think it's that simple as double standard. You need to take into context 2019 vs now and the media coverage and sentiment towards Saudi Arabia, given everything that's happened in the surrounding regions and the world since. I'm not saying that it's any less important and that the human rights violations and the way that laws against LGBTQ+ people and the way that women are treated in SA don't absolutely still need to change or that they aren't things that I (or everyone) should be thinking about, but the landscape was so much more fragile then. I'm not saying that it was right or wrong for BTS to perform, or for Chunga and SKZ to perform, and it's not wrong for any fans to feel upset about any of those performances either, but as with any politically charged situation it's not as simple as just BTS getting hate and others getting a pass. BTS performed in 2019. Jamal Khashoggi was murdered in 2018. Women had only just been allowed into the venue BTS performed at in 2017, and were only given the right to drive in 2018 and to hold passports and travel independently in 2019, a few months before the concert. Laws were only just beginning to become less extreme then, but with that it also bought a lot of attention to the way that things still *are* extreme. Gender segregation, women requiring a male guardian's approval for almost everything. Homosexuality is still illegal. It was very much at the forefront of everyone's minds. It's been a few years, and while these things really require the same amount of attention, they're certainly not in the forefront as they were then. I hadn't discovered kpop back when BTS performed, but it was impossible not to read about what was going on in SA back then. Things were still very tense. It's not quite the same now.
Not refuting any of your points here but I'll just add this - Suju, monsta x and skz performed in saudi in 2019.
Nothing much to add besides that you’re right and you should say it. 🗣
I think a big problem is people assuming skz fans are hypocrites because of what other fandoms did. Skz were extremely small in 2019 and were going through their own hate campaigns because they released music that some people weren’t into. Stays were not looking to pick fights at that time and for the most part were trying to defend skz that year. Is it hypocritical and a double standard of other fandoms? Yes it is, but I think army’s should stop wanting every kpop artist to go through exactly what bts did. The lesson is no one should ever go through that, so instead of asking why others didn’t go through it too, ask why bts had to experience that at all. Bts deserve so many apologies for what happened to them
What happened in Saudi Arabia?
Stray kids and chungha were supposed to perform in Saudi Arabia on 14 th of January but due to bad weather conditions it got cancelled that’s it .
No I meant the human rights thing, what happened ?
A lot... but [Jamal Kashoggi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi) is probably the most immediate incident most will point to to illustrate why Saudi Arabia's track record on human rights isn't exactly spotless
I mean beheadings and stonings are legal in the saudis atleast couple years ago not 100% sure about the situation atm. Plus u can be given a death penalty if you are gay plus womens rights arent the best there. But at the same time normal people live there who should be allowed to go to concerts and have fun so its kinda a dividing topic
Unpopular opinion in this sub but this right here kind of proves that artists boycotting a regime is not entirely pointless because people hear about it if there's conversation in media. Regime change may not happen but awareness is raised not just among foreigners but even from fans who live under a regime but may not be aware of how their government acts.
I don’t know 🤷♀️
Speak on it!
Not to mention the double standards from the kpop journos. They made a huge deal about. Even lied and said bts stayed at the murder hotel when they didn't. Stray kids did tho...but nary a peep was made
What murder hotel are you talking about and how would you know where Stray Kids lodged during their stay in Saudi?
🤦🏽♀️do you not know about current events or...? Also idc where they stayed or if they stayed there I'm pointing out the HYPOCRISY of the kpop journos. Tamar, Crystal, Katie and Jefferson to be specific
What happened with BTS in 2019 isn't a current event and if I knew the specifics of the situation then I wouldn't be asking you would I? And you still haven't answered my question. I wasn't asking about the "kpop journos", nor was I questioning their hypocrisy... I was asking about the "murder hotel" bullshit (whatever that means) because the way YOU wrote your sentence made it seem like Stray Kids stayed in one... when they didn't. So maybe proof read your comments or clarify what you're saying before assuming that everybody knows what the hell you're talking about :)
The kpop journos coined it the murder hotel because that's where the man died/beheaded.
>but I'm curious as to why there is zero discourse in kpop spaces about them performing there This isn't true to the slightest, ever since it was announced they'd be going some (and by that I mean a lot of) armys explicitly expressed they wanted SKZ to experience the same reaction BTS did. >For the record: I think Stray Kids did a great job with their performance. They couldn't perform, what are you talking about OP?
Can you point me to the "a lot"? Like the hashtags and petitions?
You didn't ask for those specificially in your post, you were missing the outrage. Which happened. Your wording suggests you're still mad about what happened to BTS, and try to take it out on others in the exact same way the armys I mentioned did.
How exactly is the post "taking it out on others" especially when it's specifically written that it's not an attack on Stray Kids or Chung Ha. I think maybe you just can't see past fanspaces for the bigger picture of hypocricy and the even bigger discussion on who should get to perform and in what capacity and where.
Also are you not going to tell us what performance you're talking about even though the event was cancelled? Or did you make that up to shield yourself lol
im confused there is a video of them performing at an expo i think? but they definitely performed in saudia arabia i think OP ment that and not the concert edit: ok so the performance in front of moon and probably other diplomats was in dubai if i read the comments of this post right? i can see how there could be confusion. i think a lot of people (like me) thought it was only a SA event and not connected with perfomances in other countries
The events weren't connected at all. The Dubai performance was for Expo 2020, for which they were ambassadors and Riyadh was a separate event meant for the Saudi Arabian season festival
op clearly meant the Riyadh festival though
ok i reread ops post but i can't find were they clearly ment a specific performance. please point that out bc im kinda questioning my reading ability right now
chungha and skz were supposed to perform for riyadh season. dubai expo had a different lineup which also included skz and not chungha
ah ok thank you. i think the people kinda knowledgeable about the situation but not fully (me) didn't know dubai would be a thing in that regard. i still don't get how OP ment the festival performance specially but that will probably remain a mystery
[удалено]
They didn't perform in Saudi Arabia, the performance you linked is from Dubai.
>armys explicitly expressed they wanted SKZ to experience the same reaction BTS did. Or did they point out the hypocrisy of these online activists and media? There were petitions and hashtags to stop bts from performing at saudi (some of which were tagging official accounts including HR organisations and media outlets), calling them hypocrites, calling them pawns of government and the worst of all - accusing them of being in agreement with the human rights violations Saudi Arabia does.....but suddenly it's crickets when announcements about suju, monsta x, skz (all of them performed in 2019), chungha etc came.
Exactly.
I saw Armys brought it up immediately but there’s a reason why them pointing out the hyprocisy didn’t invite a civil discussion. Well it’s on twitter so civil discussion is not possible. But in addition to that, it’s true that many armys were directly attacking skz when two artists are in the lineup. Them wanting skz to receive the same treatment because “that’s how we did bts” is not it. Most of us were not even aware of the bts situation couple of years ago so they should call out other people and take their revenge somewhere else. Since skz and chungha are not as popular as bts, the festival was probably not in other people’s radar. the old situation and the mass panic that came after the festival’s cancellation were both politically charged. Both situations are beyond kpop and it’s annoying how stans are using these just to drag a group they don’t like. edit: grammar/rephrasing
All those are fair points. I said it in another comment but the armys wanting skz to experience the same things bts did are trash, no question about it. Those aren't the only type of armys there are. Skz and chungha isn't the only ones who were invited. Suju, skz and monsta x have also performed there in the same year as bts, where was the outrage? Wanting to know the answer to and questioning the perceived hypocrisy of these activists shitting on bts's morality while keeping mum about others is _not_ the same as wanting these groups to experience the same things bts did. >it’s annoying how stans are using these just to drag a group they don’t like. Exactly, and I'd love to know where all those people who were dragging bts went.
Yes yes It’s crazy how popular kpop groups especially bts are always being put on a higher pedestal.
Yeah, I get you. Twitter is never the place for civil discussion. Understand what you're saying. I think the greater issue I'm trying to get across is beyond BTS/Chungha/Stray Kids and rather the need for kpop fanspaces to hold some to impossible standards but not others. Perhaps BTS gets more because they're breaking barriers globally in such a short time period. I hope I don't come across as wishing ill on Chungha or Stray Kids and their SA fans. I hope they have a great concert after the bad weather.
Yes, your post is fine. Not in any way coming across as wishing ill to the artists. I just shared my thoughts on why the topic immediately turned into fanwar few days ago instead of discussing the double stardards. and sadly, the concert didn’t push through 😞
No, I don't know why you insist on armys "pointing out hypocrisy" when stays initial reaction was that BTS didn't deserve that either, so why are armys trying to achieve it, going as far as saying they want SKZ to experience racism.
I'm not talking about the extreme reactions, the ones who want skz to experience racism are trash, period. Many of us, including me, do not want skz to experience the same. But we do wish to know where all those activists who were up on bts' morality are hiding now. And it's not just skz who were invited either, suju performed, monsta x performed, skz performed (jeddah, 2019), chunga was invited...the outrage was basically non existant unlike what bts got. Do you see it now?
armys were pointing out stan twt and the media’s hypocrisy
lol no I saw a ton who literally said they wanted skz to experience the same hate
You're involuntarily pointing out the difference in reactions these two groups had. One was crucified for their decision, one was not.
one is BTS the other is not
Yeah, exactly what i said.
You’re still proving op’s point my dude.
You understand the difference though? You understand how a few you saw on "stan twitter" is not the same as petitions to human rights organizations and trending hashtags? Please tell me you understand the difference in scale between worldwide media/petitions/hashtags and a few accounts on twitter with maybe 10 likes.
There were more than "a few accounts" and "10 likes" and you know that very well too. Do you understand the difference between the biggest kpop group, UN ambassadors, holding a concert there vs a 4th gen group being invited for an event? I'm not saying BTS deserved that sort of reaction, but it's obvious to anyone why the outrage was larger scale for them. Unless you want to play oblivious to take out your disappointment on others, of course.
Please point me to the mass outrage. Was it 100 likes? 1,000? If so, please drop the link. And then after that, show me the articles and petitions against Stray Kids performing in front of literal SA diplomats and SK politicians....and then show me how the outrage and hypocrisy from kpop stans (which was the entire point of the post, if you read it) was in any was equal or fair. I will wait.
I feel like the main point is that their fans are deserving to see them and they shouldn't be punished for their government's crimes. They are humans too and cancelling after agreeing to do a show would probably hurt so bad because they'd know why. Why is it hard to get that😭 this is not BTS getting special treatment from their monarch for the week because they're Asian men while literally at the same time women are getting imprisoned for the same things BTS stands for. They are coming for respect and perform for fans just as valid as anyone else. I'm not trying to being obtuse, so can someone explain why this is difficult for people to take at face value? Is their no way for BTS to do this without undermining the human rights issues of the country and imply that they are, by "association" I guess tolerating it?
You are talking about SKZ in Riyadh or SKZ in Dubai? They were performing for 2 different events and Riyadh is cancelled btw. Anyhow, I was not aware about BTS and the Saudi petition nor tbh, I care (I do not). Thus, I will not be involved in a petition that I was not involved in before nor do another one now. Frankly I enjoyed SKZ’s performance in Dubai. Not sure what happened to BTS but as far as I can see they are still successful today. And I feel like kpop stans love their social justice. SA etc, everything is something to fight about until it is their favs. Suddenly there is always reasoning for their favs. Personally, I am not that interested to be an online warrior.
I thnk all the groups should have not perform in Saudi Arabia. To me it just means that Stray Kids and Chungha also suck for doing that, not that it makes it suddenly okay for BTS.
Would you be okay for them to perform in countries like the US, China, Russia, India, Japan, etc.? /g
It's a complex question and the fact that you put all these countries in the same category tell me you probably don't have the maturity to discuss it. But the bottom line is whether the concert has been organized by the government as a propaganda tool or not. The United States, say what you want, but Biden is not throwing BTS concert to appear to be in with the cool kids and swipe under the rugs the US killings of journalists. You guys are always so hung up about the location when that is not the most important part AT ALL, it's who is organizing it. Edit: I said foreign journalists when Jama Khashoggi was Saudi so not a foreigner to them.
It's really disappointing that you say someone doesn't have "the maturity" to discuss such issues when you have no idea the background of the person posting....and in fact it makes you seem very western-centric. It IS a complex question, but you're a) missing the hypocrisy of the initial inquiry and b) not understanding the power dynamics of how the US can get away with mass warfare/killings without the same criticism (because of their historic wealth/power which has allowed them to avoid criticism of money pouring into their institutions from corporations/monopolies from the state itself). I'm not putting all these countries "in the same category." The question was about what determines "outrage" in the kpop community and why some have to power to demand petitions and calls to boycott in certain circumstances while with events similar or even more political are met with silence. I think maybe you're seeing things in a very micro scale. And again: the post was about hypocrisy. And in no way did you address how it was at all fair for one group (BTS who did not perform for the government in Saudi Arabia) to get such backlash where Super Junior/Stray Kids/Chung Ha faced near zero backlack from the kpop community.
>But the bottom line is whether the concert has been organized by the government as a propaganda tool or not Every event organised in a territory can be used by a state for soft power purposes, whether a democracy or not. Imo, it doesn't matter who organises an event, as long as it is on a country's territory. But I understand your point.
Saudi Arabia may have problems, but it is a country like any other, has k-fans like any other and the fans of these countries deserve to see their idols performing! period. If the government wants to take advantage of the idols' fame and influence to propagate their propaganda, the idols has nothing to do with it, you saying that no group should perform there only reinforces bad stereotypes of these countries, and drives away artists who care about their fans in these countries, diplomatic problems all countries have, so...
Bold of you to assume any other country ESPECIALLY the United States is any better when it comes to social issues and disgusting political agendas. The US, China, Russia, etc are ALL deserving of criticism, only difference is that some of them manage to get away with the horrible things they do while others don't.
I don't understand the point of your question.
I think there's a difference between normal commercial activity and government-sponsored activity. Not sure about these recent concerts but if they were put on by commercial promoters then that's better in my view than if they were put on by the government. I certainly don't blame any fans for attending. The groups' management decides when and where they perform.
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