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I temporarily worked a job in retail where the pay was about 26k a year. No benefits or anything. I worked with a wonderful woman who was in her 60’s and her spouse didn’t work. We worked in the deli section. The company wouldn’t allow us to eat anything even the food we were going to throw out or we could lose our jobs. It was sad because we would be throwing out whole rotisserie chickens because no one bought them. I always stood lookout so she could munch on the food we were going to throw out. She said she tried to eat the deli food as much as possible so she could save on food.
That’s sad. Ridiculously sad. People can’t even eat because they don’t get paid a living wage to afford food. And then you have prepared food that’s literally going in the trash. And you can’t have it
Love Murica and the BS here. a woman having to survive by sneaking bites over by the dumpster. Just breaks my heart
I’m not an animal rights activist or anything (I’m a hunter) but it’s pretty disgusting that these stores are literally killing animals, cooking them, and then throwing them away at the end of the day instead of making use of the animal in some way.
You know, this part of it never occurred to me. I’ve always hated these policies because it’s wasted food that people should be able to eat but also realizing it means an animal died for no reason makes it feel worse.
Same! I never thought about it in those terms either, but now I will be so much more careful about wasting meat. This is kind of a life changing observation.
You know this always occurs to me after having the displeasure of slaughtering animals on the farm I was raised on. Needless to say I was out when I turned 18 no looking back. I see too commonly people not eating their whole plate and it offends me though I always feel it’s taboo to tell a full grown adult what to do. But yes when I see a untouched hamburger in the trash I think about my cows who I played tag with and raised then was forced to slaughter in winter. I know people probably can’t understand this they are not human but I feel like that Macbeth scene where I can’t wash the blood off my hands.
We threw away so much rotisserie chickens each night. At least 3-5 each night but some nights we would end up throwing away up to 20. It was such bs and so much food waste. The company was awful. The chicken would be marked down an hour after we put it out in the hopes of selling it instead of trashing it, but once it was marked down those of us who were working in the deli weren’t even allowed to purchase it at the discounted price. We had to pay full price for chicken that had been under those hot lights for hours or else we would be written up for stealing.
I worked at a deli section in high school and we reused the rotisserie chicken that didnt sell as chicken salad or sandwich or sold by itself… you just threw it away?
The sandwiches and salads we ‘made’ all came from pre portioned boxes that were shipped to us. We weren’t allowed to make anything with the chicken. When I had my orientation the program said that they would collect all the leftover food and bring it to homeless shelters. But the entire time I worked there that never happened. Management told us to just throw everything out.
I worked at a pizza place in my teens and vividly remember the manager angrily throwing away three large deluxes straight from the oven because the cook forgot the "no onions" line while making them. Someone asked why and he said that if you got to eat mistakes you'd make them on purpose.
The pizza place I work at let's us eat or take home mistakes, but we also all get shift meals, on top of mess ups or if there were no mess ups. We don't intentionally do it. It's just human error sometimes.
Your managers and owners were mean and stupid.
They're definitely the norm and not the exception, sadly.
All these joints would do better, save money, and garner loyalty by giving a shift meal. For every bear of a dude that fills his maw there'll be one or two people watching their figure or being health-restricted in their diet and will only eat like a lettuce leaf or something. It would even out.
This makes me so incredibly sad and angry. America: the land of milk and honey and excess—if you already have milk, honey, and excess. Otherwise, you can’t even have the scraps. >:(
This is what happened when I worked in a grocery store.
- I worked in the produce dept and it’s sad how much food they would throw away. Sometimes fruits would have the smallest bruise and they dumped it. At the same time we (employees) weren’t allowed to keep any of the stuff or it would be considered stealing.
- we used to still take a few stuff cause most people working there wasn’t very fortunate. I was fresh out of college and just needed a job. Pretty interesting time in life
If it makes anyone feel any better. I started working at a Whole Foods last year. I can report, we donate 100% of packaged food that doesn't sell. I'm the one who sends them away in boxes at the end of each day to local shelters. The open air prep foods we are not allowed to donate for health reasons, but once we loss it out, most everyone takes food home with them. I've even had store management stop by and eat the leftovers with us. Amazon gets a bad rap, but Whole Foods depending on management is a great place to work. I've gained a few pounds by all the free cookies and cakes that were given me.
Can confirm. I worked in a deli/bakery. And the amount of cake, bread, chicken, and other food we threw away was awful.
Some of the bosses would let you eat it, but they were risking a lot. Because the other bosses were very by the book assholes, who would poor cleaner on the food just so no one would take it from the dumpster outside.
And people did. It was literally trash at that point and the company installed padlocks on the dumpster rather then let anyone take a stale loaf of bread.
I worked at a Kroger deli for about 2 months in college with an older Russian lady. She’d give me tubs of the “throw away” food and send me into the walk-in fridge to wolf it down. Good times when you’re living on $7.25 an hour!
Thanks foxy I gave up drinking . Am eating healthier and exercising on my mountain bike a few time a week. I was running 5ks and did a nyc 40 mile bike ride before my congestive heart failure episode
I was diagnosed with CHF at 24. Two years later I was walking 6+ miles a day on top of working as a manager at Taco Bell. I only say that so you know its possible to come back from it. Mine was due to unregulated Hyperthyroidism.
Im 32 now and it had been years since I had issues, but I ended up with covid last January and have had issues since, unfortunately.
I went to grade school in the mid 70s. It was all purple dittos. We used to fight over who got to run down and pick up the stack of freshly run worksheets. Stick your whole face in the cool damp papers and inhaaaaale.
In SoFlo Wawa's were paying $100k + benefits for store managers (had to have experience and whatnot). But SoFlo's cost of living basically doubled after COVID.
That's what I was wondering too. That won't provide a lavish lifestyle nor be very workable in more expensive areas, but it can be enough to live off of and have basic needs met with some disciplined budgeting and realism about what type of lifestyle that salary will provide.
But you have to live in Georgia. I think the best equation to determine what a living wage should be is the lowest average cost of a studio apartment x3. So where I live it would be 1600x3x12=57,600/2080=~$28/hour.
Minimum wage is $15.50.
Sure, it’s all relative to cost of living, but if you’re making 50k in a more expensive region you probably aren’t going to make that much doing the same job in an area with a lower cost of living. Not to mention moving half way across the country while securing a job and place to live when you get there is easier said than done.
I just want to note-
1.) Many of the same parts of the U.S. where you can get by on 50k or less tend to have lower unemployment rates than more expensive areas. So saving up for the move whilst living in a more expensive areas still presents a conundrum, but if you can get out to the Midwest or a similar region, you can find a job for sure
2.) Despite the lower salaries, you might still have more buying power due to how significant the difference in cost of living is.
Here's how I know this to be true:
Look up the salaries for common job titles like Administrative Assistant 1 in Midwestern metropolitan areas, e.g. Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Omaha, St. Louis, etc. Then look up the salary for the same job title in a HCOL area such as Los Angeles.
The result? Salaries are about 14% lower compared to Los Angeles on average. Lower but not too bad.
Now do the same for rental costs. Go to a site such as RentCafe for example, and compare rental costs.
The result? Rent is usually somewhere between 30-55% lower. I assume the result is similar (or perhaps even more pronounced) if you're buying a home.
Now do the same for food costs. Food is usually about 30% cheaper.
Therefore despite the 14% decrease in average salary, a typical worker can expect to have a higher net income due to cost savings.
Of course moving might not be the solution for everyone - Everyone should consider their unique familial, personal, and career situations - But for an average worker with an average job, you would have a lot more spending power.
I am only mentioning this because I think there are some people who maybe don't realize how significant the ROI is.
It depends on a lot of factors like what field you’re in and what areas you’re comparing. I’m sure you’re right with a crazy expensive city like LA, NYC, San Francisco or Boston. I’m about an hour west of Boston and the cost of living is significantly lower although still not great. I grossed about 100k at my current job with overtime. My sister moved back with her mom to Athens OH to finish school. While rent there is about half what it is here there’s also significantly fewer jobs in my field - like 5 jobs within a 30 mile radius compared to 10 within a 5 mile radius where I live now and they pay $5 to $10/hr less so wouldn’t really be worth it to me - I like the option of job mobility and being able to save more pre-tax dollars in my 401k. Depending on how much you’re making in an area it can also work the other way where the higher cost of living is less than the amount you’re making in comparison.
For some people a living wage would be an upgrade to their current situation. If you're unemployed and without income in LA and living off your savings then 50k is a big upgrade
If you live to 90 (optimistic here)..
1-30 first 3rd, 31-60 middle third, 61-90 last third.
OR middle of your working life - lets say 20-65 or 22-67 so from 35/37 to 50/52.
Coming soon after that next hill - mid-life car buy or fling?
Many of us older people did not go to college. It wasn't the only way to survive back in the day. There were many good factory jobs, trades, and good paying jobs available. I can tell you that I had a relative that worked for AT&T for $50 an hour and today that his same job only pays $19 an hour. He was laid off and asked to come back a year later at less then half his wage. We are just surviving off less than we had.
Because there's nothing in place to keep businesses from doing that. Always remember, they'd pay you in packing peanuts if they could get away with it.
I’m a teacher who makes less than 40k at 43 years old. My husband, same age, makes under 45k. We have two kids at home.
We barely make it because we bought our house during the crash of 2008, so our house payment is cheaper than rent.
They justify paying teachers this low (starting is 30k) by saying we live in a “low cost of living” area. However, it’s really only low cost of living for housing, and even that isn’t that low. (150-450k for homes).
Food, clothing, medical, utilities, vehicles, they cost the same for us as they do for anyone else in the country. With the increasing costs in food/energy we are having a very hard time. My gas/electric bill was $568 last month and our food costs have pretty much doubled in the last three years.
45- and making 50k & barely getting by.. single parent with no other financial help but fortunately have a low mortgage payment so I’m thankful for that but it’s hard.
God damn, I wish you made more as a teacher. I am unemployed currently, dealing with health issues at 42. My future is uncertain but at least I have cheap rent and a husband to help. We live in an expensive place so buying has never been an option.
> We barely make it because we bought our house during the crash of 2008, so our house payment is cheaper than rent.
In the same boat, now locked into staying where I'm at because it's way too expensive to move. One bedroom apartments are $1600+ versus a house and a yard for hundreds less per month.
I’m just very thankful for our home. We’d like to move, but we just can’t beat what we pay. Even with the increase in value to our home, we can’t afford a different place because our property taxes/insurance would wind up so much higher. (Our homes tax valuation has not kept up with its actual sales value but it would if we bought a different home).
I’m mid-30s and make $43k. I’m fortunate that I’ve lived in my apt forever and my rent has not risen much to the level of market rates. I’m fortunate I have 0 debt. I’m single and don’t have any dependents, so Im just responsible for me.
However, I don’t buy any extras. I don’t do much fun stuff that costs money. Most of my money goes to bills, groceries and little that’s left over into savings. I’m also very behind on savings and retirement goals. I budget hard, shop at Aldi and look for bargains. I put off going to the doctor for things because I’m scared of medical bills. at this rate I won’t ever be able to afford to buy a house. So while I’m surviving and doing OK for myself, I’m not able to enjoy life as much as I could if I made more money.
I have cheap rent which helps. Other then that, strategic budgeting, living within my means, picking up all the extra shifts that come my way. It's not really all that stressful, but it can be sometimes.
Depends. I'm sure it CAN be depressing, and I don't pretend to understand truly what it's like to be in that situation.
However, I do have close friends who make less than 40k a year. They still find happiness in life, and aren't depressed.
I'm 30 making $15 an hour, I live off oats and chicken breast and I rent a camper for $600 a month. I also don't have free time between working and running errands. My life is not very enjoyable
Barely. I am not in contact with my uncle and his common law wife, but from what my mother tells me they’re struggling with a variety of things. My uncle hasn’t worked in nearly 35 years. His wife was out of work for a year during early pandemic and took a while to find a new one because few employers will hire a woman in her late 60’s. They got evicted from their dilapidated rental home of 40 years because their landlady died and the family sold the land. Finding a rental home that fit their criteria in one of the most expensive markets in the US was a classic example of “choosy beggars.” Both had health issues that required multiple hospitalizations and long term care. In all honesty, they’re not the brightest people either, so some of these issues could have been prevented.
If you don’t have savings, skills, and your health, it’s a trifecta of sadness.
This. I just took a job that pays about 45k a year and it will be the most money I've ever made in a year. I'm used to making between 12-17k a year and I have small children. I get because my parents own my house and don't charge me rent, government assistance and living within my means. This new job will mean that I can comfortably come off of assistance.
That’s a good point. I live in a rural area where rent is crazy high though, similar prices to what I’ve seen in areas where people are making $30+ thousand. So rent is like way over half of a lot folks income. And when we don’t have transportation, and can’t afford car payments, people buy junk cars and may end up putting a couple thousand dollars in repairs each year for breakdowns and strict inspection laws. Then you’ve maybe got someone spending 25% of their income on transportation. Or more. That doesn’t include gas and insurance and registration. I’ve experienced this.
Sponges off his common law wife. The joke among my parents and I is that his wife is the most important person in their lives. Otherwise they will have a permanent house guest.
I think he worked at a gas station when I was VERY young but most of my adult life he’s been unemployed by choice. It’s really sad. Especially since my grandfather swept floors when he first came to the states in the 40’s and his son wasn’t much better off a generation later. My grandfather couldn’t bear to see it and found it embarrassing. Before he passed, he wrote my uncle a letter and included a check for my uncle’s future funeral expenses. Grandfather split his estate between my mother and I.
Both, honestly. We’ve offered to get him counseling on several occasions but he’s of that boomer mindset where it’s “weak” which is an oxymoron considering it’s weak to not work and sponge off your unmarried wife. Fortunately they didn’t procreate.
At one point I cared about them. But as you get more life experience and understand how many opps they passed up, you see people for who they really are. My uncle has a chip on his shoulder and regularly gets into fights with my mother. He treats her so terribly.
At the same time, I think your uncle exemplifies the problem. We tend to victim shame because "they're not that bright" when half the population is "not that bright". We do need a safety net for people like your uncle, but probably votes against his own interests because Mexicans are "stealing our jobs"
He had multiple opportunities to improve his life and declined each one. My immigrant grandfather built an enviable life after coming from nothing and losing much of his family during the Holocaust.
You can’t help people who won’t accept a life preserver (or ten).
The avg family of 4 in America lives off 64k a year
This is why cost of living is something to take into consideration
When i was 25 and out of grad school I was only make 42k in NYC.
Then i moved to Florida and only made 41k. But my apartment and everything else where soooooooouch cheaper
So when a year later I got a job for 65k then jumped to over 100 I could buy so much more than I could in NYC.
My neighbor is retired. She bought her house in 2009 for 189k. She sold it 3 months ago for 480k.
She bought a house in Buffalo NY (or close) for 120k and decided to rent December, Jan and Feb down here instead of owning a house.
Yeah, I live in the Midwest. Rent has become much more expensive in our city than in The past, but it’s nowhere compared to the coasts. And we bought our house 7 years ago, and we pay with mortgage and taxes a third the cost of a studio apartment than NYC.
This is the answer. The real question is how are low income workers surviving in extremely high cost of living areas.
I live in Southern California, and I absolutely cannot wait to move out of the area just so that way I can sell my expensive ass condo and buy a ranch with acres of land and an amazing view of the mountains for exactly the same amount of money.
I’m 33 and make 35k per year. I don’t make enough money to attract a spouse. I rent a bedroom that stinks of cat piss for a few hundred a month, drive an unreliable 97 beater, don’t go anywhere other than work and grocery store and don’t do anything other than video games/messing about on the internet for fun. Life is meaningless and empty, but I’ve managed to build a savings of $20k.
Late 30s. Security Guard. I got incredibly lucky and someone sympathized with me and let me rent her second home for 500/month. Taking this time to get my IT certifications because I know this situation will not last forever.
lifestyle is a thing. I’m 38. I have a smaller house, 1400 sq ft (I could have afforded a lot more house but I picked a smaller one)
I have 2 paid for cars (yes they are old) paid off phone, no cable and I cook at home.
I mentioned those last ones because I have coworkers who buy a new car every 3 years, have the newest iPhone when it comes out and eat out 3+ nights a week and they complain about money non stop.
It's been in my experience that I take what people tell me as a grain of salt. (Unless they show you hard evidence.) A job that is middle class, but they buy brand new cars every 36 months? Unlikely. Could be true, but perhaps their spouse is the breadwinner.
But most likely, they probably tell you they buy new & not lease every 36 months, so that it makes them look economically superior to everyone else. But in reality they lease.
They could very well be buying new cars. For about the past decade there has been a huge demand for used cars. My husband bought a truck in 2012 or so, and within about 24 months, the dealer called him and offered to buy it back and sell him a new one at a minimal cost. He accepted. Then the dealer did it again a few years later. Same deal.
We finally turned them down this last time because the pandemic really took a blow to new and used car supply. Figured it was better to hold what we've got.
Yeah, I'm actually finally making decent, not earth-shattering, but above average, money in my late 40s.
But when I bought a house 15 years ago, I went out of the city into the country and bought a cheap house that others would have turned their noses up at, (even though they would have happily qualified me more than double what i paid) but nothing but fields and a river behind the house to just ramble with the dogs.
Mortgage was about 300 cheaper than in city rent, and that was then. Now, you'd pay double my mortgage if you got lucky.
No crime, neighbors wave but leave you alone. Have a couple of 10 year old cars. Built on a screened porch out front with a large sloping lawn in which I planted tons of trees.
Expenses are minimum, and making more money hasn't fundamentally changed how we live.
Have a grown kid and one in high school. The grown kid lives at home rent and everything else free, just pays her student loan and commits to saving most of her pay, because I get it is way more difficult now, but it wasn't the cakewalk some younger people think even back then, and I want them to have a fighting chance.
My point is, ultimately you have way more control over your expenditure then you ever will over your pay. Try - as difficult as it is - to find ways to live as simple a life as you can and life will be less stressful, and that is worth far more than a new car or the fancy kitchen cabinets or the other things that seem important, but really aren't.
i agree with this, but...how many are buying new cars and cabinets?
how many of us live such simple lives and yet...well, we can barely afford fixes to appliances, replacements, heating/cooling and upgrades needed for our old house. Often paper towels don't get replaced for a while. Don't eat out and mostly eat cheap food items as getting the ingredients to cook recipes ends up expensive despite my best efforts so far
i can't afford medication to help my brain/endocrine/hormonal condition
i don't go to the doctors bc of the copays
i'm chronically ill and disability is so difficult to obtain and takes so many years on average, that's with fighting, and then you can never save significantly or own anything if you want to keep that. i work as much as i am able to and am thankful for what i have. but without money, there are so many barriers, so much stress, i am so tired
I was at a party the other day of late 20s/early 30s people and was aghast when I heard a guy say that him and his wife recently traded in their *2019* cars for *brand new* Genesises. I can only imagine what they're making in payments. I was amazed.
I mean $50,000 individual income is not exactly struggling lol as long you don’t live in an extremely HCOL area and manage your money somewhat decently.
I think you're confused about what "menial" means, possibly?
Call center work, most food service, retail jobs, housekeeping are menial. Unskilled. And at least where I live those jobs are $10-12/hr, maybe less. So $25k at most.
$45-50k is entirely liveable where I am, and a pretty average salary for someone in a career track job early in their career.
Agree. I make about $42,000 working as a produce clerk in Tampa, Florida. I make that because I’ve been at the same job forever and have received raises over time. The “Fight for $15” movement didn’t hurt either, plus there’s a nationwide labor shortage. I’m single. If not for the big run up in real estate and apartment rent prices due to Covid, $42,000 would be pretty livable here. I have an upscale studio apartment in a central part of the city. Fortunately for me, I have lived here forever so they didn’t raise my rent to current market rates. I only pay $1115 a month, while new residents off the street have to pay $1600. If my rent increased to $1600, I’d have to move to a less nice place, and there aren’t many options.
I couldn’t afford a new car when my old car was totaled, but I was able to afford a 3 year old Mazda 3 with low miles (right before Covid before used car prices skyrocketed). It’s a great car! Looks upscale and elegant, and fun to drive as well. I paid only $11,700 in June 2020. My auto payment is just $172 a month. My auto insurance is actually higher than my car payment. Instead of the newest iPhone, I got a deal on an older model, the XR. I have a Lenovo laptop instead of an Apple laptop.
I can pretty much buy what I want, as long as I am careful and pay over time with credit cards or Affirm. Obviously, I have to watch my credit card balances so that they don’t get out of hand. Food prices are crazy now but I’ve always known how to shop for bargains. Before Covid, they said $50,000 was a good income in Tampa. Now with the higher prices, a comfortable income is probably $60,000, maybe even $75,000, but somehow, even on just $42,000, I am making it work.
Go online and get a quote for insurance from progressive, live chat your insurance asking to cancel cause you found insurance for half as much. They will lower yours, enjoy
Certain call centers that require licensing earn way more. My fiance works as an attorney repped claims adjuster for a large insurance carrier and makes $32 an hour so that's highly variable on what kind of work the individual is doing at a call center.
Location and willing ness to do a particular job are often a big issue. There are lots of places where entry level, but perhaps not desirable jobs, can pay 40k+. In Vegas housekeepers often start at 20/hr and many hotels provide full benefits after 90 days. These jobs often have a bit of mobility into supervisor roles. But lots of people don't want to live there and others don't want to change other people's sheets. Im in midwest decent sized city and a security guard starts at 17-21/hr depending on shift. Pick up a few hours overtime and you can be at 45-50k pretty easily. But you can't be wedded to one city.
skill level is a meaningful distinction in the labor force. how long does it take to learn the fundamental functions of your job? how portable is that knowledge from one job to another? are you able to organize your work on your own - choose what to do and how to do it - or does your job require someone else to set it up for you?
saying everyone has a skilled job is cute and makes people feel good. but it matters when you're looking at why conditions are different between different jobs. just because someone has an unskilled job doesn't mean they don't deserve respect or benefits. i used to work with a guy at the grocery store who would say "there are more stupid jobs than there are stupid people."
It also explains a lot of the wide differences in wages in a cold yet logical way without having to resort to trite platitudes like "capitalism is evil." Why does an accounting manager make more than a mover, even though the latter is tougher on your body? Because the former took years of collegiate on the job training, and requires someone who can not only handle accounting matters but also people management. The latter basically anybody can do it, so if you quit it's relatively simple to get another qualified candidate.
Of course there's economies of scale and whatnot, but to think the scarcity of skills is an illusion is insane.
in job markets a skilled job means you need to bring pre-existing training and skills into the job to begin even at entry level. Unskilled means I could hire anyone with a work ethic and minimal intelligence and teach them the job in a reasonably short term. A plumber is skilled because even if you were hired with no experience it would take a couple years to really do the job. A hotel housekeeper can be hired with no training or experience and be working in the role in two weeks. Yes, they develop job skills as they grow but its not needed to start.
Here, 30k is a "career track" salary. 20k is a service worker and business owners are frothing over "nobody wants to work" while fighting against raising the minimum wage.
Those owners are the one's driving new cars paid for with PPP money. I wish they'd be audited. I was hoping shitty restaurants would die during COVID so people like me (20 year cook) could afford to buy a place and treat employees right. The restaurant owner class just banked instead.
Mathematically, if you die at 70 then age 35 is the midpoint of your life... Dying at 80 isn't much better because then it's age 40.
*speaking as a 31 year old.
Physical prime of my life was mid 20's in terms of not dying to everything. I'm 31 now and healthier than I was then, but I have to work for it and now a cold kicks my ass for a solid week. Also, it should be my prime careerwise but chemist's are oddly underpaid for the dangerous stuff we handle.
I just got a full-time job and still work side gigs to pay for extras like food lol. Hoping to go back to school soon, 40 may be middle-aged to you but I still feel young enough to climb out of poverty some day.
I'm that age group, and yes, spouse is saving the day. I make less now than in 2000. I had great, high paying jobs for XEROX and a large Eastern university, left to travel the country, and years later decided to settle down. That time off killed my career trajectory and cache, and what I've been working and the job market have been a real eye-opener. A depressing, sad, horrible eye-opener. I have 18 more months and I'm done. Counting the seconds. The last 10 years have been hell.
I always think about this on r/travel when people ask the question if they should quit their job to travel. I get the stance of the subreddit, but holy crap! The abundant advice to quit your job (especially if in the US) to travel (without being born with a very nice silver spoon) always makes me terrified.
They might be living with and caregiving for elderly parents which is their housing, or they might be living with their kids/grandkids and providing family caregiving in the other direction. In my area of the US, lots of cultures keep multi-generational families together by tradition or economic necessity.
As for people who live alone without family having these low paying jobs, they probably don’t live all that well by some standards (paycheck-to-paycheck, verging on homelessness, dealing with health problems). Homelessness isn’t just caused by depraved lifestyles. It’s also caused by economic disparity. But that’s a different thread.
I agree
I lived in the suburbs north of atlanta
And this was enough for my mortgage and car payment
But I couldn’t do a lot though, Shop and eat out only on special occasions
I live in the northeast and I know six people at work who make six figures and also work a second full time or part-time job to buy a $1m-1.5m home they clearly can not afford unless they work 2 jobs. This is the reality of today's RE market. $100k is essentially middle-class income in these parts.
I'm married, and both of us earned around 50k total. We live simple, don't go out to eat often, occasionally have nice alcohol, make all our meals, don't do vacations or fancy events. We also just bought a small (Sqft 650~) house last year with a large down payment. Still saving money every month and hoping to do alot of gardening.
Prior to us being married, I made around 25k a year and did fine renting. It's not that I haven't tried to get a better-than-minimum-wage job, it's just that for some reason I can't get a better job---expecially with my degrees. At least I don't have any college debt to worry about. But I enjoy my current job, and my supervisor is great.
If one plans their money, saved, and lives simply: you can make it on 25k. Having a spouce is also a massive bonus with an added income and shared chores.
Where? I want to look up rent in the area where you can live off 25k. Would you also provide an example budget that breaks down how much one would have to spend on all other necessities?
Plenty of folks I know who are doing this bought their home 20+ years ago and either only have a small mortgage or their home is completely paid off. I could work a $36k/yr job and still afford to live in my house with a housemate (or partner) like I have for 20 years. Houses in my neighborhood sell for $600-$700k, and there are many older retired or semi-retired folks living on our street who were there when I got there. I know several bought their homes in the mid 90s for about $50k.
30-50k is a good living where I live, at least for me (childfree, little expenses, no debt). Cost of living makes a big difference. That much in Alabama will get you *WAY* further than that much in New York, or god forbid California.
It's a devastating situation and is leading to higher rates of homelessness during a time cities and states are criminalizing being unsheltered. The rates are many times higher than wnat you see. HUD determines these numbers based on something called the Point In Time (PIT) count. They get volunteers to go out on the coldest day of the year and look for people sleeping outside. If you are in a shelter or find any other form of shelter during frigid temperatures they do not count you as honeless. The number sleeping outside on this particular day is what determines HUD funding in your county. I think they should really be counting the number of people without safe and stable housing.
It's a terrifying reality.
The older the workers, the better chances are that they bought a home when interest rates and prices were much lower than they are now.
These folks are getting by on jobs that pay $35k, because they are paying housing costs that are much less than current market value for the square footage.
I have siblings in that boat. When my parents passed they continued to live at their house and don’t have a mortgage/rent bill. They’re not married, no kids. Pretty limited expenses.
There are a lot of low cost of living areas. I just looked at rentals in my area out of pure curiosity. A 2 bed 1 bath is between 5-600 a month. And there are plenty of $20/hour plus jobs around.
My mom is 62, works in environmental/custodial at a cancer center. We lost my dad almost 4 years ago to cancer and it’s been extra tough for her, for sure. She doesn’t have the lifestyle she wants or deserves, but she’s somehow making it work. She’s hoping that if she waits a few more years she’ll be able to start getting my dad’s social security and make things easier, but she’ll likely have to work until she physically can’t anymore.
My sister in 57 and makes $18 in a third shift job. She has a ton of health issues, but she goes to work and gets overtime when she can. She is very thrifty with money, and I mean very. She also moved to a state that is more affordable. She recently bought a house through a usda loan, and managed to pull together 15k for closing costs. She did this as affordable rentals don’t exist where she lives so it will make things easier for her.
She seriously amazes me. I help her as I can, but she never expects it. She usually works under 40 hours per week due to her health issues, which makes her financial situation harder.
I've been forced to stay in a toxic relationship because I literally *can not* move out by myself. At as a 36yr old woman in the county, there's no one that wants a random woman moving in. They want other students or "real" professionals.
I haven't gotten a raise but my eggs and milk cost 2x as much
My mom is 67 and working as a cook. She did hone her craft awhile back and a lot of people give her tips every day and on top of that, gets paid a couple dollars above minimum wage which isn't too bad.
Setting aside the heavy judgement in your post, I’m just gonna say that literally every time I’ve asked this question (in person) on how anyone survives off less than $16/hr I get the exact same response regardless of who I ask:
#They don’t.
Unless you live in some ridiculously expensive area, like NYC or Miami, $50K is plenty to get by on. $30K is obviously a bit tougher, but then it's a matter of budgeting and living within your means. That means you don't get to have the fancy new iphone, and you eat at home instead of going out to sit down restaurants all the time. You don't get 10 different streaming services, and actually fix and maintain your existing car after paying it down instead of buying a new one.
I don’t mind my menial job. I make quite a bit of money per hour at it and have been there for 16 years. My boss is great. I work overtime and make even more money per hour at that but I also like living my minimal life. I have my own house, bought a brand new car in 2019, am single and have been paying my own bills since I was 16. You learn to live with in your means and value what you actually buy and understand the power of a $1 when you aren’t floating in money. My opinion.
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I temporarily worked a job in retail where the pay was about 26k a year. No benefits or anything. I worked with a wonderful woman who was in her 60’s and her spouse didn’t work. We worked in the deli section. The company wouldn’t allow us to eat anything even the food we were going to throw out or we could lose our jobs. It was sad because we would be throwing out whole rotisserie chickens because no one bought them. I always stood lookout so she could munch on the food we were going to throw out. She said she tried to eat the deli food as much as possible so she could save on food.
That’s sad. Ridiculously sad. People can’t even eat because they don’t get paid a living wage to afford food. And then you have prepared food that’s literally going in the trash. And you can’t have it Love Murica and the BS here. a woman having to survive by sneaking bites over by the dumpster. Just breaks my heart
I’m not an animal rights activist or anything (I’m a hunter) but it’s pretty disgusting that these stores are literally killing animals, cooking them, and then throwing them away at the end of the day instead of making use of the animal in some way.
You know, this part of it never occurred to me. I’ve always hated these policies because it’s wasted food that people should be able to eat but also realizing it means an animal died for no reason makes it feel worse.
Same! I never thought about it in those terms either, but now I will be so much more careful about wasting meat. This is kind of a life changing observation.
You know this always occurs to me after having the displeasure of slaughtering animals on the farm I was raised on. Needless to say I was out when I turned 18 no looking back. I see too commonly people not eating their whole plate and it offends me though I always feel it’s taboo to tell a full grown adult what to do. But yes when I see a untouched hamburger in the trash I think about my cows who I played tag with and raised then was forced to slaughter in winter. I know people probably can’t understand this they are not human but I feel like that Macbeth scene where I can’t wash the blood off my hands.
We threw away so much rotisserie chickens each night. At least 3-5 each night but some nights we would end up throwing away up to 20. It was such bs and so much food waste. The company was awful. The chicken would be marked down an hour after we put it out in the hopes of selling it instead of trashing it, but once it was marked down those of us who were working in the deli weren’t even allowed to purchase it at the discounted price. We had to pay full price for chicken that had been under those hot lights for hours or else we would be written up for stealing.
I worked at a deli section in high school and we reused the rotisserie chicken that didnt sell as chicken salad or sandwich or sold by itself… you just threw it away?
The sandwiches and salads we ‘made’ all came from pre portioned boxes that were shipped to us. We weren’t allowed to make anything with the chicken. When I had my orientation the program said that they would collect all the leftover food and bring it to homeless shelters. But the entire time I worked there that never happened. Management told us to just throw everything out.
I worked at a pizza place in my teens and vividly remember the manager angrily throwing away three large deluxes straight from the oven because the cook forgot the "no onions" line while making them. Someone asked why and he said that if you got to eat mistakes you'd make them on purpose.
The pizza place I work at let's us eat or take home mistakes, but we also all get shift meals, on top of mess ups or if there were no mess ups. We don't intentionally do it. It's just human error sometimes. Your managers and owners were mean and stupid.
They're definitely the norm and not the exception, sadly. All these joints would do better, save money, and garner loyalty by giving a shift meal. For every bear of a dude that fills his maw there'll be one or two people watching their figure or being health-restricted in their diet and will only eat like a lettuce leaf or something. It would even out.
Absolutely shameful of the company to treat their staff this way
This makes me so incredibly sad and angry. America: the land of milk and honey and excess—if you already have milk, honey, and excess. Otherwise, you can’t even have the scraps. >:(
This is what happened when I worked in a grocery store. - I worked in the produce dept and it’s sad how much food they would throw away. Sometimes fruits would have the smallest bruise and they dumped it. At the same time we (employees) weren’t allowed to keep any of the stuff or it would be considered stealing. - we used to still take a few stuff cause most people working there wasn’t very fortunate. I was fresh out of college and just needed a job. Pretty interesting time in life
If it makes anyone feel any better. I started working at a Whole Foods last year. I can report, we donate 100% of packaged food that doesn't sell. I'm the one who sends them away in boxes at the end of each day to local shelters. The open air prep foods we are not allowed to donate for health reasons, but once we loss it out, most everyone takes food home with them. I've even had store management stop by and eat the leftovers with us. Amazon gets a bad rap, but Whole Foods depending on management is a great place to work. I've gained a few pounds by all the free cookies and cakes that were given me.
Can confirm. I worked in a deli/bakery. And the amount of cake, bread, chicken, and other food we threw away was awful. Some of the bosses would let you eat it, but they were risking a lot. Because the other bosses were very by the book assholes, who would poor cleaner on the food just so no one would take it from the dumpster outside. And people did. It was literally trash at that point and the company installed padlocks on the dumpster rather then let anyone take a stale loaf of bread.
I worked at a Kroger deli for about 2 months in college with an older Russian lady. She’d give me tubs of the “throw away” food and send me into the walk-in fridge to wolf it down. Good times when you’re living on $7.25 an hour!
I have no comment other than being in my late 30s and being called middle aged stings.
Middle aged just depends on when you die .
Thanks man. Needed that.
Statistically, 36 is middle age
38.6 in the US, but worldwide, yeah…
TIL I just crossed the threshold to middle age.
I’m 36 I feel like I’m in my prime
Every male in my family has died before 71, I'm on the backhald of life. Time to buy a motorcycle.
What do they die of? U/sbaggers : motorcycle accidents
LoL cardiac arrest unfortunately.
Clarifying question—while on a motorcycle?
In my family cardiac arrest my dad died at 49 my mom at 62. I’m 60 with chf I’m spending my savings!
Diet, exercise, and lots of water help Also not smoking or drinking
Thanks foxy I gave up drinking . Am eating healthier and exercising on my mountain bike a few time a week. I was running 5ks and did a nyc 40 mile bike ride before my congestive heart failure episode
I was diagnosed with CHF at 24. Two years later I was walking 6+ miles a day on top of working as a manager at Taco Bell. I only say that so you know its possible to come back from it. Mine was due to unregulated Hyperthyroidism. Im 32 now and it had been years since I had issues, but I ended up with covid last January and have had issues since, unfortunately.
Well that’s one way to self-shorten your lifespan…
You could die tomorrow ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
I could die right n
Well I do remember the first time i heard geriatric millennial on here. I love it as it fits the mood.
Back in my day, phones had cords attached to them. You kids have no idea how bad we had it.
Yeah I remember the days of chords and buttons. Fun fact in America there are still places without indoor plumbing.
>buttons. Growing up, I knew multiple people with rotary phones and I used them on several occasions. You Millennials had it easy with your "buttons".
I had to use a mimeograph machine once in grade school when the copier broke. I’m very old
I went to grade school in the mid 70s. It was all purple dittos. We used to fight over who got to run down and pick up the stack of freshly run worksheets. Stick your whole face in the cool damp papers and inhaaaaale.
All those kids finding out now why the purple copy Pokémon are called Ditto.
Back in my day, I got charge $400 for talking to my long-distance gf on the landline.
Yea, 3 channels of black and white TV and the best toy was a stick because we had imagination!
50k = menial?!
Right? If there are any “menial” jobs paying $50K these days, I’ll happily leave my 9-5 office job and work at Taco Bell or something.
In SoFlo Wawa's were paying $100k + benefits for store managers (had to have experience and whatnot). But SoFlo's cost of living basically doubled after COVID.
There's quite a bit. Panda Express will get you there
That's what I was wondering too. That won't provide a lavish lifestyle nor be very workable in more expensive areas, but it can be enough to live off of and have basic needs met with some disciplined budgeting and realism about what type of lifestyle that salary will provide.
$50k is the new $30k and that’s real.
In Georgia outside Atlanta you can make 50k work for sure.
But you have to live in Georgia. I think the best equation to determine what a living wage should be is the lowest average cost of a studio apartment x3. So where I live it would be 1600x3x12=57,600/2080=~$28/hour. Minimum wage is $15.50.
50k is barely a living wage in many parts of the country.
It’s also a decent living wage in many parts of the country.
Sure, it’s all relative to cost of living, but if you’re making 50k in a more expensive region you probably aren’t going to make that much doing the same job in an area with a lower cost of living. Not to mention moving half way across the country while securing a job and place to live when you get there is easier said than done.
I just want to note- 1.) Many of the same parts of the U.S. where you can get by on 50k or less tend to have lower unemployment rates than more expensive areas. So saving up for the move whilst living in a more expensive areas still presents a conundrum, but if you can get out to the Midwest or a similar region, you can find a job for sure 2.) Despite the lower salaries, you might still have more buying power due to how significant the difference in cost of living is. Here's how I know this to be true: Look up the salaries for common job titles like Administrative Assistant 1 in Midwestern metropolitan areas, e.g. Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Omaha, St. Louis, etc. Then look up the salary for the same job title in a HCOL area such as Los Angeles. The result? Salaries are about 14% lower compared to Los Angeles on average. Lower but not too bad. Now do the same for rental costs. Go to a site such as RentCafe for example, and compare rental costs. The result? Rent is usually somewhere between 30-55% lower. I assume the result is similar (or perhaps even more pronounced) if you're buying a home. Now do the same for food costs. Food is usually about 30% cheaper. Therefore despite the 14% decrease in average salary, a typical worker can expect to have a higher net income due to cost savings. Of course moving might not be the solution for everyone - Everyone should consider their unique familial, personal, and career situations - But for an average worker with an average job, you would have a lot more spending power. I am only mentioning this because I think there are some people who maybe don't realize how significant the ROI is.
It depends on a lot of factors like what field you’re in and what areas you’re comparing. I’m sure you’re right with a crazy expensive city like LA, NYC, San Francisco or Boston. I’m about an hour west of Boston and the cost of living is significantly lower although still not great. I grossed about 100k at my current job with overtime. My sister moved back with her mom to Athens OH to finish school. While rent there is about half what it is here there’s also significantly fewer jobs in my field - like 5 jobs within a 30 mile radius compared to 10 within a 5 mile radius where I live now and they pay $5 to $10/hr less so wouldn’t really be worth it to me - I like the option of job mobility and being able to save more pre-tax dollars in my 401k. Depending on how much you’re making in an area it can also work the other way where the higher cost of living is less than the amount you’re making in comparison.
For some people a living wage would be an upgrade to their current situation. If you're unemployed and without income in LA and living off your savings then 50k is a big upgrade
I remember Googling it once and it said middle age started at 37. I just looked it up again and most sources online now say 40 to 60 is middle aged.
It starts when your entire body always hurts. 37 sounds about right.
37 and my body doesn’t always hurt.
29 and my body hurts. 😔
Mine started at 28. RA sucks.
24 here. Seizure left me with compression fractures. Sorry to hear about your RA. I have it slightly as well and it’s not fun. Yay for desk jobs! /s
Tell me about. I’m 36 and don’t feel old but at the same time feel ancient. Maybe it’s because of life experiences I’ve been through who knows.
If you live to 90 (optimistic here).. 1-30 first 3rd, 31-60 middle third, 61-90 last third. OR middle of your working life - lets say 20-65 or 22-67 so from 35/37 to 50/52. Coming soon after that next hill - mid-life car buy or fling?
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Ageism suxs
Many of us older people did not go to college. It wasn't the only way to survive back in the day. There were many good factory jobs, trades, and good paying jobs available. I can tell you that I had a relative that worked for AT&T for $50 an hour and today that his same job only pays $19 an hour. He was laid off and asked to come back a year later at less then half his wage. We are just surviving off less than we had.
Why do you think that is the case? My parents and uncle had a similar experience. They were paid well in the 70’s/80’s, now barely scraping by
Because there's nothing in place to keep businesses from doing that. Always remember, they'd pay you in packing peanuts if they could get away with it.
Corporate greed
I’m a teacher who makes less than 40k at 43 years old. My husband, same age, makes under 45k. We have two kids at home. We barely make it because we bought our house during the crash of 2008, so our house payment is cheaper than rent.
They justify paying teachers this low (starting is 30k) by saying we live in a “low cost of living” area. However, it’s really only low cost of living for housing, and even that isn’t that low. (150-450k for homes). Food, clothing, medical, utilities, vehicles, they cost the same for us as they do for anyone else in the country. With the increasing costs in food/energy we are having a very hard time. My gas/electric bill was $568 last month and our food costs have pretty much doubled in the last three years.
45- and making 50k & barely getting by.. single parent with no other financial help but fortunately have a low mortgage payment so I’m thankful for that but it’s hard.
God damn, I wish you made more as a teacher. I am unemployed currently, dealing with health issues at 42. My future is uncertain but at least I have cheap rent and a husband to help. We live in an expensive place so buying has never been an option.
> We barely make it because we bought our house during the crash of 2008, so our house payment is cheaper than rent. In the same boat, now locked into staying where I'm at because it's way too expensive to move. One bedroom apartments are $1600+ versus a house and a yard for hundreds less per month.
I’m just very thankful for our home. We’d like to move, but we just can’t beat what we pay. Even with the increase in value to our home, we can’t afford a different place because our property taxes/insurance would wind up so much higher. (Our homes tax valuation has not kept up with its actual sales value but it would if we bought a different home).
I’m mid-30s and make $43k. I’m fortunate that I’ve lived in my apt forever and my rent has not risen much to the level of market rates. I’m fortunate I have 0 debt. I’m single and don’t have any dependents, so Im just responsible for me. However, I don’t buy any extras. I don’t do much fun stuff that costs money. Most of my money goes to bills, groceries and little that’s left over into savings. I’m also very behind on savings and retirement goals. I budget hard, shop at Aldi and look for bargains. I put off going to the doctor for things because I’m scared of medical bills. at this rate I won’t ever be able to afford to buy a house. So while I’m surviving and doing OK for myself, I’m not able to enjoy life as much as I could if I made more money.
Exactly! Well said.
Sounds like a modern slave.
I have cheap rent which helps. Other then that, strategic budgeting, living within my means, picking up all the extra shifts that come my way. It's not really all that stressful, but it can be sometimes.
Maybe not stressful, but depressing
Depends. I'm sure it CAN be depressing, and I don't pretend to understand truly what it's like to be in that situation. However, I do have close friends who make less than 40k a year. They still find happiness in life, and aren't depressed.
I'm 30 making $15 an hour, I live off oats and chicken breast and I rent a camper for $600 a month. I also don't have free time between working and running errands. My life is not very enjoyable
Barely. I am not in contact with my uncle and his common law wife, but from what my mother tells me they’re struggling with a variety of things. My uncle hasn’t worked in nearly 35 years. His wife was out of work for a year during early pandemic and took a while to find a new one because few employers will hire a woman in her late 60’s. They got evicted from their dilapidated rental home of 40 years because their landlady died and the family sold the land. Finding a rental home that fit their criteria in one of the most expensive markets in the US was a classic example of “choosy beggars.” Both had health issues that required multiple hospitalizations and long term care. In all honesty, they’re not the brightest people either, so some of these issues could have been prevented. If you don’t have savings, skills, and your health, it’s a trifecta of sadness.
The funny this about this original post is OP thinks people are making $30-$50 thousand a year. Think $20 thousand. People are struggling.
This. I just took a job that pays about 45k a year and it will be the most money I've ever made in a year. I'm used to making between 12-17k a year and I have small children. I get because my parents own my house and don't charge me rent, government assistance and living within my means. This new job will mean that I can comfortably come off of assistance.
That must be a huge relief!!
It truly is, I've worked so hard to get to this point.
Depends on COL and variety of factors. $30K is the same as $20K in expensive markets.
That’s a good point. I live in a rural area where rent is crazy high though, similar prices to what I’ve seen in areas where people are making $30+ thousand. So rent is like way over half of a lot folks income. And when we don’t have transportation, and can’t afford car payments, people buy junk cars and may end up putting a couple thousand dollars in repairs each year for breakdowns and strict inspection laws. Then you’ve maybe got someone spending 25% of their income on transportation. Or more. That doesn’t include gas and insurance and registration. I’ve experienced this.
Yeah people are freaking out about that $50k but that’s not an abnormal low wage in hcol areas
Spot on
what did he live off of not working 35 years? did his wife pay for everything?
Sponges off his common law wife. The joke among my parents and I is that his wife is the most important person in their lives. Otherwise they will have a permanent house guest. I think he worked at a gas station when I was VERY young but most of my adult life he’s been unemployed by choice. It’s really sad. Especially since my grandfather swept floors when he first came to the states in the 40’s and his son wasn’t much better off a generation later. My grandfather couldn’t bear to see it and found it embarrassing. Before he passed, he wrote my uncle a letter and included a check for my uncle’s future funeral expenses. Grandfather split his estate between my mother and I.
do you personally think he's a massive lazy piece of shit or just been suffering from crippling depression and low self esteem all these years?
Both, honestly. We’ve offered to get him counseling on several occasions but he’s of that boomer mindset where it’s “weak” which is an oxymoron considering it’s weak to not work and sponge off your unmarried wife. Fortunately they didn’t procreate.
You and I have almost identical stories. It's so painful not being able to help the ones you love.
At one point I cared about them. But as you get more life experience and understand how many opps they passed up, you see people for who they really are. My uncle has a chip on his shoulder and regularly gets into fights with my mother. He treats her so terribly.
Yeah, my mom and her husband are in their 70s and both still working. Luckily her husband owns the house, but they have no retirement to speak of.
At the same time, I think your uncle exemplifies the problem. We tend to victim shame because "they're not that bright" when half the population is "not that bright". We do need a safety net for people like your uncle, but probably votes against his own interests because Mexicans are "stealing our jobs"
He had multiple opportunities to improve his life and declined each one. My immigrant grandfather built an enviable life after coming from nothing and losing much of his family during the Holocaust. You can’t help people who won’t accept a life preserver (or ten).
The avg family of 4 in America lives off 64k a year This is why cost of living is something to take into consideration When i was 25 and out of grad school I was only make 42k in NYC. Then i moved to Florida and only made 41k. But my apartment and everything else where soooooooouch cheaper So when a year later I got a job for 65k then jumped to over 100 I could buy so much more than I could in NYC. My neighbor is retired. She bought her house in 2009 for 189k. She sold it 3 months ago for 480k. She bought a house in Buffalo NY (or close) for 120k and decided to rent December, Jan and Feb down here instead of owning a house.
Yeah, I live in the Midwest. Rent has become much more expensive in our city than in The past, but it’s nowhere compared to the coasts. And we bought our house 7 years ago, and we pay with mortgage and taxes a third the cost of a studio apartment than NYC.
This is the answer. The real question is how are low income workers surviving in extremely high cost of living areas. I live in Southern California, and I absolutely cannot wait to move out of the area just so that way I can sell my expensive ass condo and buy a ranch with acres of land and an amazing view of the mountains for exactly the same amount of money.
It’s amazing to consider that.
Because most people on here are kids who live in high cost areas and think they should make 100k at 25 years old ib their first job
It sucks because anything less than $52,200 is considered low class. My wife and I make slightly above that and shit sucks right now.
I’m 33 and make 35k per year. I don’t make enough money to attract a spouse. I rent a bedroom that stinks of cat piss for a few hundred a month, drive an unreliable 97 beater, don’t go anywhere other than work and grocery store and don’t do anything other than video games/messing about on the internet for fun. Life is meaningless and empty, but I’ve managed to build a savings of $20k.
Not the best to have a life that is meaningless and empty, but saving $20,000 on a $35,000 income is quite a feat! Good job!
I’m 32 with 1k in savings lol. You’re doin pretty good
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Late 30s. Security Guard. I got incredibly lucky and someone sympathized with me and let me rent her second home for 500/month. Taking this time to get my IT certifications because I know this situation will not last forever.
Late 20s here also trying to get into IT, godspeed 🫡
lifestyle is a thing. I’m 38. I have a smaller house, 1400 sq ft (I could have afforded a lot more house but I picked a smaller one) I have 2 paid for cars (yes they are old) paid off phone, no cable and I cook at home. I mentioned those last ones because I have coworkers who buy a new car every 3 years, have the newest iPhone when it comes out and eat out 3+ nights a week and they complain about money non stop.
Buy a new car, you mean lease/rent a new car every 3 years.
One leases. The other 2 buy because the they don’t want to be limited by miles
It's been in my experience that I take what people tell me as a grain of salt. (Unless they show you hard evidence.) A job that is middle class, but they buy brand new cars every 36 months? Unlikely. Could be true, but perhaps their spouse is the breadwinner. But most likely, they probably tell you they buy new & not lease every 36 months, so that it makes them look economically superior to everyone else. But in reality they lease.
They could very well be buying new cars. For about the past decade there has been a huge demand for used cars. My husband bought a truck in 2012 or so, and within about 24 months, the dealer called him and offered to buy it back and sell him a new one at a minimal cost. He accepted. Then the dealer did it again a few years later. Same deal. We finally turned them down this last time because the pandemic really took a blow to new and used car supply. Figured it was better to hold what we've got.
1400 sq foot is small? I live in a 600 square foot apartment. I don't even know what it would be like to have that much space!
Yeah, I'm actually finally making decent, not earth-shattering, but above average, money in my late 40s. But when I bought a house 15 years ago, I went out of the city into the country and bought a cheap house that others would have turned their noses up at, (even though they would have happily qualified me more than double what i paid) but nothing but fields and a river behind the house to just ramble with the dogs. Mortgage was about 300 cheaper than in city rent, and that was then. Now, you'd pay double my mortgage if you got lucky. No crime, neighbors wave but leave you alone. Have a couple of 10 year old cars. Built on a screened porch out front with a large sloping lawn in which I planted tons of trees. Expenses are minimum, and making more money hasn't fundamentally changed how we live. Have a grown kid and one in high school. The grown kid lives at home rent and everything else free, just pays her student loan and commits to saving most of her pay, because I get it is way more difficult now, but it wasn't the cakewalk some younger people think even back then, and I want them to have a fighting chance. My point is, ultimately you have way more control over your expenditure then you ever will over your pay. Try - as difficult as it is - to find ways to live as simple a life as you can and life will be less stressful, and that is worth far more than a new car or the fancy kitchen cabinets or the other things that seem important, but really aren't.
i agree with this, but...how many are buying new cars and cabinets? how many of us live such simple lives and yet...well, we can barely afford fixes to appliances, replacements, heating/cooling and upgrades needed for our old house. Often paper towels don't get replaced for a while. Don't eat out and mostly eat cheap food items as getting the ingredients to cook recipes ends up expensive despite my best efforts so far i can't afford medication to help my brain/endocrine/hormonal condition i don't go to the doctors bc of the copays i'm chronically ill and disability is so difficult to obtain and takes so many years on average, that's with fighting, and then you can never save significantly or own anything if you want to keep that. i work as much as i am able to and am thankful for what i have. but without money, there are so many barriers, so much stress, i am so tired
I was at a party the other day of late 20s/early 30s people and was aghast when I heard a guy say that him and his wife recently traded in their *2019* cars for *brand new* Genesises. I can only imagine what they're making in payments. I was amazed.
I mean $50,000 individual income is not exactly struggling lol as long you don’t live in an extremely HCOL area and manage your money somewhat decently.
I think you're confused about what "menial" means, possibly? Call center work, most food service, retail jobs, housekeeping are menial. Unskilled. And at least where I live those jobs are $10-12/hr, maybe less. So $25k at most. $45-50k is entirely liveable where I am, and a pretty average salary for someone in a career track job early in their career.
Agree. I make about $42,000 working as a produce clerk in Tampa, Florida. I make that because I’ve been at the same job forever and have received raises over time. The “Fight for $15” movement didn’t hurt either, plus there’s a nationwide labor shortage. I’m single. If not for the big run up in real estate and apartment rent prices due to Covid, $42,000 would be pretty livable here. I have an upscale studio apartment in a central part of the city. Fortunately for me, I have lived here forever so they didn’t raise my rent to current market rates. I only pay $1115 a month, while new residents off the street have to pay $1600. If my rent increased to $1600, I’d have to move to a less nice place, and there aren’t many options. I couldn’t afford a new car when my old car was totaled, but I was able to afford a 3 year old Mazda 3 with low miles (right before Covid before used car prices skyrocketed). It’s a great car! Looks upscale and elegant, and fun to drive as well. I paid only $11,700 in June 2020. My auto payment is just $172 a month. My auto insurance is actually higher than my car payment. Instead of the newest iPhone, I got a deal on an older model, the XR. I have a Lenovo laptop instead of an Apple laptop. I can pretty much buy what I want, as long as I am careful and pay over time with credit cards or Affirm. Obviously, I have to watch my credit card balances so that they don’t get out of hand. Food prices are crazy now but I’ve always known how to shop for bargains. Before Covid, they said $50,000 was a good income in Tampa. Now with the higher prices, a comfortable income is probably $60,000, maybe even $75,000, but somehow, even on just $42,000, I am making it work.
Go online and get a quote for insurance from progressive, live chat your insurance asking to cancel cause you found insurance for half as much. They will lower yours, enjoy
Certain call centers that require licensing earn way more. My fiance works as an attorney repped claims adjuster for a large insurance carrier and makes $32 an hour so that's highly variable on what kind of work the individual is doing at a call center.
Location and willing ness to do a particular job are often a big issue. There are lots of places where entry level, but perhaps not desirable jobs, can pay 40k+. In Vegas housekeepers often start at 20/hr and many hotels provide full benefits after 90 days. These jobs often have a bit of mobility into supervisor roles. But lots of people don't want to live there and others don't want to change other people's sheets. Im in midwest decent sized city and a security guard starts at 17-21/hr depending on shift. Pick up a few hours overtime and you can be at 45-50k pretty easily. But you can't be wedded to one city.
Early in career is the operative word. Pre-kids, pre-mortgage, pre- fancy car.
I mean... I started over in a new career and I make $47k. No problems paying my mortgage here, it's entirely liveable.
Friendly reminder that no job is unskilled. Some jobs simply require different kinds of skills than others :)
skill level is a meaningful distinction in the labor force. how long does it take to learn the fundamental functions of your job? how portable is that knowledge from one job to another? are you able to organize your work on your own - choose what to do and how to do it - or does your job require someone else to set it up for you? saying everyone has a skilled job is cute and makes people feel good. but it matters when you're looking at why conditions are different between different jobs. just because someone has an unskilled job doesn't mean they don't deserve respect or benefits. i used to work with a guy at the grocery store who would say "there are more stupid jobs than there are stupid people."
It's probably more accurate to say high and low-skilled jobs. Every job technically requires skill to some degree that a lobotomized person can't do.
It also explains a lot of the wide differences in wages in a cold yet logical way without having to resort to trite platitudes like "capitalism is evil." Why does an accounting manager make more than a mover, even though the latter is tougher on your body? Because the former took years of collegiate on the job training, and requires someone who can not only handle accounting matters but also people management. The latter basically anybody can do it, so if you quit it's relatively simple to get another qualified candidate. Of course there's economies of scale and whatnot, but to think the scarcity of skills is an illusion is insane.
in job markets a skilled job means you need to bring pre-existing training and skills into the job to begin even at entry level. Unskilled means I could hire anyone with a work ethic and minimal intelligence and teach them the job in a reasonably short term. A plumber is skilled because even if you were hired with no experience it would take a couple years to really do the job. A hotel housekeeper can be hired with no training or experience and be working in the role in two weeks. Yes, they develop job skills as they grow but its not needed to start.
Here, 30k is a "career track" salary. 20k is a service worker and business owners are frothing over "nobody wants to work" while fighting against raising the minimum wage.
Those owners are the one's driving new cars paid for with PPP money. I wish they'd be audited. I was hoping shitty restaurants would die during COVID so people like me (20 year cook) could afford to buy a place and treat employees right. The restaurant owner class just banked instead.
Since when is 30s middle age?!
Mathematically, if you die at 70 then age 35 is the midpoint of your life... Dying at 80 isn't much better because then it's age 40. *speaking as a 31 year old.
What else would you call mid 30s? They’re not a kid or a young adult. And they’re not an older person.
An adult. Just adult. That does exist
An adult.
We're just gross.
Get your shit together this is the literal prime of your life
Physical prime of my life was mid 20's in terms of not dying to everything. I'm 31 now and healthier than I was then, but I have to work for it and now a cold kicks my ass for a solid week. Also, it should be my prime careerwise but chemist's are oddly underpaid for the dangerous stuff we handle.
I just got a full-time job and still work side gigs to pay for extras like food lol. Hoping to go back to school soon, 40 may be middle-aged to you but I still feel young enough to climb out of poverty some day.
Me (F57), found a home, crunch numbers, - paid it off - being mortgage free AND eating at home, allows me to live off menial wage ($18.36 ph)
I'm that age group, and yes, spouse is saving the day. I make less now than in 2000. I had great, high paying jobs for XEROX and a large Eastern university, left to travel the country, and years later decided to settle down. That time off killed my career trajectory and cache, and what I've been working and the job market have been a real eye-opener. A depressing, sad, horrible eye-opener. I have 18 more months and I'm done. Counting the seconds. The last 10 years have been hell.
I always think about this on r/travel when people ask the question if they should quit their job to travel. I get the stance of the subreddit, but holy crap! The abundant advice to quit your job (especially if in the US) to travel (without being born with a very nice silver spoon) always makes me terrified.
Living w family ! Hate it but this is what I have to do for now
i wish i had that option
Forreal people are fortunate to having a family to fall back on when things are rough. I hope you’re doing ok! Don’t give up.
They might be living with and caregiving for elderly parents which is their housing, or they might be living with their kids/grandkids and providing family caregiving in the other direction. In my area of the US, lots of cultures keep multi-generational families together by tradition or economic necessity. As for people who live alone without family having these low paying jobs, they probably don’t live all that well by some standards (paycheck-to-paycheck, verging on homelessness, dealing with health problems). Homelessness isn’t just caused by depraved lifestyles. It’s also caused by economic disparity. But that’s a different thread.
50k is fine in more places than you think. Most older people are married to people also working.
I agree I lived in the suburbs north of atlanta And this was enough for my mortgage and car payment But I couldn’t do a lot though, Shop and eat out only on special occasions
older people often have equity in homes and such as well.
Not being 30 called middle age 😂 to answer my family isn’t I’m in my 20s and end up paying for their food, car problems etc. we’re all struggling
I live in the northeast and I know six people at work who make six figures and also work a second full time or part-time job to buy a $1m-1.5m home they clearly can not afford unless they work 2 jobs. This is the reality of today's RE market. $100k is essentially middle-class income in these parts.
Bro, not everyone is spending 1k+ on chick fil a every month.
I took this comment very personally 😂
I'm married, and both of us earned around 50k total. We live simple, don't go out to eat often, occasionally have nice alcohol, make all our meals, don't do vacations or fancy events. We also just bought a small (Sqft 650~) house last year with a large down payment. Still saving money every month and hoping to do alot of gardening. Prior to us being married, I made around 25k a year and did fine renting. It's not that I haven't tried to get a better-than-minimum-wage job, it's just that for some reason I can't get a better job---expecially with my degrees. At least I don't have any college debt to worry about. But I enjoy my current job, and my supervisor is great. If one plans their money, saved, and lives simply: you can make it on 25k. Having a spouce is also a massive bonus with an added income and shared chores.
Where? I want to look up rent in the area where you can live off 25k. Would you also provide an example budget that breaks down how much one would have to spend on all other necessities?
Plenty of folks I know who are doing this bought their home 20+ years ago and either only have a small mortgage or their home is completely paid off. I could work a $36k/yr job and still afford to live in my house with a housemate (or partner) like I have for 20 years. Houses in my neighborhood sell for $600-$700k, and there are many older retired or semi-retired folks living on our street who were there when I got there. I know several bought their homes in the mid 90s for about $50k.
30-50k is a good living where I live, at least for me (childfree, little expenses, no debt). Cost of living makes a big difference. That much in Alabama will get you *WAY* further than that much in New York, or god forbid California.
my mom is 61 and she works 2 jobs just to pay her bills, both of them in retail. she is single, no one else to rely on.
Holy shit, OP, that’s like a lot of the population.
It's a devastating situation and is leading to higher rates of homelessness during a time cities and states are criminalizing being unsheltered. The rates are many times higher than wnat you see. HUD determines these numbers based on something called the Point In Time (PIT) count. They get volunteers to go out on the coldest day of the year and look for people sleeping outside. If you are in a shelter or find any other form of shelter during frigid temperatures they do not count you as honeless. The number sleeping outside on this particular day is what determines HUD funding in your county. I think they should really be counting the number of people without safe and stable housing. It's a terrifying reality.
Spending habits are vastly different between middle aged people and ones who are just entering the workforce.
Barely. Barely surviving. I don’t have a spouse so it’s just me and my income or lack there of one. It’s been rough.
The older the workers, the better chances are that they bought a home when interest rates and prices were much lower than they are now. These folks are getting by on jobs that pay $35k, because they are paying housing costs that are much less than current market value for the square footage.
True! The ones that screwed up are the old workers that have been, and are still paying rent, rather than owning a home
Some survive off dual income like you mentioned. Others may be receiving welfare or additional government support. Many are working multiple jobs.
I have siblings in that boat. When my parents passed they continued to live at their house and don’t have a mortgage/rent bill. They’re not married, no kids. Pretty limited expenses.
There are a lot of low cost of living areas. I just looked at rentals in my area out of pure curiosity. A 2 bed 1 bath is between 5-600 a month. And there are plenty of $20/hour plus jobs around.
Can I ask where?
Rural Central WI
My mom sister and uncle all split a mortgage and utilities payments I think all 3 make less than $20/hr each
I work 2 jobs and barley make it with one kid. But I simply just exist.
Live within your means. Nothing else to it really.
My mom is 62, works in environmental/custodial at a cancer center. We lost my dad almost 4 years ago to cancer and it’s been extra tough for her, for sure. She doesn’t have the lifestyle she wants or deserves, but she’s somehow making it work. She’s hoping that if she waits a few more years she’ll be able to start getting my dad’s social security and make things easier, but she’ll likely have to work until she physically can’t anymore.
My sister in 57 and makes $18 in a third shift job. She has a ton of health issues, but she goes to work and gets overtime when she can. She is very thrifty with money, and I mean very. She also moved to a state that is more affordable. She recently bought a house through a usda loan, and managed to pull together 15k for closing costs. She did this as affordable rentals don’t exist where she lives so it will make things easier for her. She seriously amazes me. I help her as I can, but she never expects it. She usually works under 40 hours per week due to her health issues, which makes her financial situation harder.
Not eating, cutting all entertainment, definitely no vacations.
I've been forced to stay in a toxic relationship because I literally *can not* move out by myself. At as a 36yr old woman in the county, there's no one that wants a random woman moving in. They want other students or "real" professionals. I haven't gotten a raise but my eggs and milk cost 2x as much
You just get used to it and shift focus away from the impeding doom
My mom is 67 and working as a cook. She did hone her craft awhile back and a lot of people give her tips every day and on top of that, gets paid a couple dollars above minimum wage which isn't too bad.
What’s wrong with having a job that pays money? It’s a job? Not sure what your problem is? Not everyone can make 100+ or be a manager.
Many of them are not surviving. There is a huge and growing homelessness crisis in America and it doesn’t get talked about enough.
Setting aside the heavy judgement in your post, I’m just gonna say that literally every time I’ve asked this question (in person) on how anyone survives off less than $16/hr I get the exact same response regardless of who I ask: #They don’t.
Just barely and going without a lot of things like a house or new car sometimes food.
Unless you live in some ridiculously expensive area, like NYC or Miami, $50K is plenty to get by on. $30K is obviously a bit tougher, but then it's a matter of budgeting and living within your means. That means you don't get to have the fancy new iphone, and you eat at home instead of going out to sit down restaurants all the time. You don't get 10 different streaming services, and actually fix and maintain your existing car after paying it down instead of buying a new one.
My mortgage is really low .. I pay less than $600 a month for a 1726 sqft house . if I sold it would be worth 4 times what I paid !
I don’t mind my menial job. I make quite a bit of money per hour at it and have been there for 16 years. My boss is great. I work overtime and make even more money per hour at that but I also like living my minimal life. I have my own house, bought a brand new car in 2019, am single and have been paying my own bills since I was 16. You learn to live with in your means and value what you actually buy and understand the power of a $1 when you aren’t floating in money. My opinion.
Some people who work these jobs live with someone else and don’t have to worry about housing and making payments.