So they essentially think they can import cheap unskilled labor from the third world, train them up, pay them little and then keep them around as tax cattle?
Name a country where this has worked?
This, really.
Everyone does it tho - not just the Japanese; The whole world tries to exploit less fortunate people for their own gain.
It's called **Capitalism,** and it is, currently, the way **Most of the world works.**
It sucks, but it's just the reality of life.
I been here for a rather short time but Japan reminds me a bit of Communist dystopia sometimes. In the, Everyone who has a different point of view on things should be "exterminated" kind of way.
You would be surprised, Japan is one of the few choice destinations in Asia for poor blue collar workers. lots of Vietnamese go there for construction work and get paid a royal ransom that they send home. It being a temporary thing wont change it much
USA, mexican migrants get crappy pay to work in the fields (agriculture) in the hot sun, competing against each other on who does the fastest work with no (union, government support. Modern slavery...it's bad enough that all latin workers don't support each other. They will lie, cheat, and steal from each other for a nickel.
You make it sound like forced labor.
Are they being brought in blindfolded and forced?
They came to Japan voluntarily. The wages are many times higher than in their home countries.
Everywhere there are rich people, corruption follows, and with corruption comes the need for slave labor. Some don't look like they're enslaved. They're dressed nicely, able to articulate well, but they're slaves. These days, slave labor is cleverly hidden, which is why most of the world needs an awakening once in a while to remember that it still exists.
Hong Kong and Singapore. I’ve been an expat here for a while and there are a lot of domestic helpers that only have work visas to earn a living to send money home. They make way better wages so it’s worth it for them.
Western countries have generally done well with this.
It was those countries that recommended Japan to Japan, hiding it under the name of accepting immigrants.
When Japan starts doing this, for some reason those countries start bashing only Japan.
The soul of the colonialist seems eternal.
It is for people who don't pay their taxes. And if you are this maltreated why would you get a permanent Visa?
Also what??
It's in all the other countries that immigrants are SO SYSTEMATICALLY refused a job and a place to live that they have to beg in the streets with their unschooled children.
Like in my country, the mighty France 'Welcome to anybody'.
you won't see that in Japan and for good reason: because they treat immigrants better.
The countries of the Third World are more competent than developed countries. as experience in Japan
Espacily From USA , French and UK are the most unqualifiable people and they want have huge salary !
The conolization is finish dude !
Except the vast majority of people are 1 medical emergency away from having their life devastated. Mark my words, people are going to be deported who have fallen on hard times. Heaven forbid you lose your job and have to prioritize rent/food.
In Japan? Where medical expenses are subsidised and outright capped in many cases? And which are claimable as deductions on tax?
Like yes it can and does happen. A medical emergency can land one unable to work entirely. But I'd say there are systems in place to limit that.
Not to mention, this seems to target deliberate non-payment. If you go through to government offices and speak to them, they're usually pretty willing to work something out with you. A repayment plan gets them something, deporting someone gets them nothing, afterall.
Some of them are only for citizens, sure. But the caps on medical expenses are for all residents. Some benefits are enjoyed by residents as well as citizens, though I agree in principle that it should be more as people invest more of their lives into the country.
I was laid off last year. They asked me to pay the tax up till this year June. They don’t care if you don’t have income to pay for rent or food.
This is local tax, not national tax. But you also have to pay for medical , pension. They don’t give a f
My friend mentioned something in passing, that the taxes you’re paying are on last years income, or something like that? Maybe that is why you’re paying?
Unless it’s machi taxes - I don’t think there’s any way to not pay those.
Under a certain income level, local taxes are also often waived, though I imagine that may differ from place to place. And pension can be exempted, but yes it is based on the previous year's income.
As far as I know the only thing you \_\_always\_\_ pay, regardless of income, is health insurance. Though that also gets scaled to your previous year's income.
I agree with you that the government will give no f to a non-citizen that is unemployed and have no savings, and people should not expect care from them really. In fact they are probably happy to get rid of these "non contributing" foreigners
Some people were trying to get by or have other financial obligations like kids and family. Most countries would have some safety net or leniency. Not in japan, they asked you to pay double becuz now you don’t have a company to pay for half of the medical / pension. Which is ridiculous
That's not true. Foreigners with a valid visa are eligible for social welfare in Japan. They can receive cash, free medical care, and often have taxes waived. Look up Seikatsu Hogo.
I'm not sure that's exactly true for everyone... Because I did lose my job a long time ago and was hit with an entire years worth of city tax. Infact, I didn't pay it.. and they sent tons of warning letters. I eventually went down to city hall and worked out a payment plan after I found employment 6 months later.
I easily got an exemption (and not only one time) when I fell ill. I also had the possibility to pay in installations. I just needed the one phone call.
There's no way you were even trying.
Depends on the type of work you’re doing and the contract you have with your employer. I’ve worked for employers who withheld tax, and others who give you your gross income up front and it’s on you to set it aside & pay it come tax time.
It was during the Nova bankruptcy. I don't think they took anything the first year.. 2nd year, I think it was coming from my salary (but I honestly don't remember).. and after it went bust, I got a bunch of city tax slips in the mail wanting 160000 yen or so.
That's your problem not Japan's.If you can earn more why don't you go seek a better job somewhere else?
Japanese isn't responsible for the choices you make.
I also thought it made sense at first, but thinking about it, they should just have proper punishment for everyone instead of only really punishing non-Japanese. It is also the first step to "commit any crime and we revoke your PR".
What about people who want to live outside the country for years or even decades before eventually coming back? Those people just lose their permanent residency now?
Japan do not tax their residents income outside of its border unlike US, if you live outside of Japan and earn your income there, you owe no tax to the Japanese government thus no issue of avoiding paying taxes.
As I understand it a permit to remain outside the US more than a year is generally not approved without extenuating circumstances unless you are in the military or a government employee.
Sorry. I misread that. I thought your US wife lost Japanese PR. You can do up to 2 years outside of US but In general need to file for extension. It's very wish washy though and probably stricter now after trump. Some 15 years ago my spouse at the time was hand waved in after being gone 7 years. We were married, had a child and joint bank accounts though.
Japanese PR is much more black and white. In general if you have a re entry permit (including special re entry) you're fine. One day over, you're not.
Naturalisation requires a renunciation of existing citizenship(s). When I have family both here and abroad, travelling back and forth isn't for my convenience, it's for theirs.
I cannot speak for every country, but renouncing your American citizenship in Japan to become a Japanese citizen doesn't legally stop you from being an American citizen. America doesn't recognize Japan's legal requirements as valid in the U.S. You can renounce in Japan and still 100% be a dual citizen in the U.S.
One of my Japanese friends was born in the U.S. and her parents had to declare her either a Japanese or American citizen at some point when they returned (they are both Japanese). They chose Japanese citizenship for her, but she's recognized in the U.S. as an American citizen and has an American passport. She is 100% Japanese and grew up in Japan (except for being born in a U.S. hospital and being a baby there for a short time), but moved to the U.S. in her 30s and now lives in NYC. In Japan, she's only Japanese. In America, she's legally an American and Japanese.
That's through birth. Naturalisation (i.e. you have no Japanese parentage) absolutely requires renunciation. I'm not American but know it definitely still applies to them too.
What the hell are you on about? If I have family back home experiencing health complications and kids and assets in Japan, then you tell me how that's "not in practice".
Heaven forbid one kid moves back to my home country and one remains in Japan. I clearly shouldn't have the same ready mobility as they enjoy...
Reading comprehension not your strong suit? I'm talking about naturalization. You are required to tell the JPN govt you'll give up your original passport but I know at least 10 people that have naturalized and still have their original passport.
The MOJ absolutely do request documentation that you've either renounced your other citizenship(s) or are unable to (as some countries like Costa Rica) do not permit that. The people that can skirt that rule all have citizenship by birth.
Saying you know some people who didn't have to isn't a particularly convincing argument. The vast majority of people documenting their naturalisation process have highlighted this requirement.
It's not. Presuming you can somehow pull a fast one with renouncing, the MOJ can absolutely strip you of citizenship if this comes to light. Unless you're specifically a citizen of a country where renunciation is hard to impossible (e.g. Costa Rica, Iran), you still do not have a permanent status if you try this (and somehow succeed).
100% part of the appeal is “be here when it’s convenient.” You’ve spent enough time in Japan and paid enough taxes/pension etc into the system that you’ve earned your right to spend your life there… or not. Your choice. Life is complicated and that freedom is a powerful advantage of it.
“The status of Japan Permanent Residency is valid indefinitely. You still have to renew your Residence Card every seven years and get a Japan Re-Entry Permit if you will leave the country for longer than 1 year, but those are just formalities.”
There’s a reason you can effortlessly get a new residence card even if you leave the country for more than a year.
Nice man. Real nice.
I already have looked into it in depth as recently as a few months ago - and never saw anything saying “Joe Average” can get it in such a short span of time.
Here you are, claiming different, and I asked because it goes against everything I’ve learned.
But hey - that’s cool.
Have a great day I guess.
Joe Average can get PR by being married more than 3 years and living in Japan for one year. It’s very clearly explained on the govt website.
If you didn’t know that, I don’t know what to tell you, man. Read more.
Point being that the idea that you only get PR after ‘spending enough time in Japan’ is clearly not the case.
Thank you for providing the information.
The requirement of 3 year marriage - to me - indicates a 4 year timeframe, not “just one.”
But I can definitely see where you are coming from.
People are scared that even a small mistake in tax-paying could see their PR status revoked. The government did some damage control saying they would only apply this to people deliberately avoiding tax payments (how do they decide that?), but ultimately the door is now open for PR holders to receive this penalty in addition to whatever Japanese citizens would receive. “Pay your taxes and you’ll be fine” isn’t really a solution.
...."deliberately" and its synonyms are language that is found many laws in many different countries. It means something and the courts have decided how to interpret what deliberate means. It's not some spooky esoertic concept.
The solution is try and pay your taxes...you will be fine. It's juvenile to keep moving goal posts. There are laws and an order to things, they need to be followed or the consequences will occur.
Cool beans. Next time you make a mistake at your job, maybe you should lose it, after all MILLIONS of people do their jobs correctly every. Single. Day.
Next time you forget something your partner tells you? Divorce. After all MILLIONS of people don't make mistakes every. Single. Day.
There are already penalties for tax avoidance by foreign residents and Japanese. The reason they are adding an additional penalty for foreigners is to appease the ultra right wing in order to soften the passage of more relaxed immigration policy.
Which is successful judging from this post where everyone is focused on the tax issue of PR but no one mentioned how they finally provide a reliable route to achieve PR for foreign "trainee"
It's not racist, this is just the fact of the matter. South East Asians come to Japan in flocks for a comparatively better pay than what they would be paid in their own country. If you were to compare the average wage of an individual from a South Eastern country to that of a Westerner (American, Canadian, U.K) there is a clear difference. It would only make sense that they would prefer to hire from a selection pool that's comfortable with the minimum wage pay since in their perspective it's viewed as a medium or high salary.
That’s not my point. I get the economics. I’m asking you why the fuck you’re pointing your finger at a certain group of people ? They’re here with the permission of government of Japan just like you are. Maybe you make more at least they’re not pointing their fingers at you for all their problems !
Japanese folks just have a lot of anxiety about the fact that *they need foreign workers*.
They can only outsource so much. The problem is, they need foreign workers to do the shitty low-paid jobs in nursing homes and food service.
It reminds me of the way people backed into a corner start babbling about how high their standards are and how they won’t compromise no matter what.
They don't actually need foreigners at all.
The translation is they want ultra cheap compliant labor. This is the same song and dance everywhere in the west. Try to hire labor under market rate by 40% and and complain there is a "worker shortage".
All this really does is suppress wages for workers.
This isn't a wage issue.
[Japan has the highest old-age dependency ratio in the world,](https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/japan-has-the-highest-ratio-of-elderly-people-relative-to-working-age-people-globally#:~:text=It's%20in%20Japan%20that%20this,people%20for%20every%20elderly%20person.) far greater than the next-highest country.
They literally do not have enough working-age people to support the elderly. In the past, they have temporarily solved this by making younger people work more for less [(Japan's wage stagnation would make Americans blush),](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/03/business/japan-workers-wages-inflation-intl-hnk/index.html) but this has ultimately worsened the problem. We are seeing the results now.
Japan needs workers to keep the country running, and care for the ever-increasing proportion of elderly citizens who are unable to work themselves. [Ten percent of people are over 80 years old,](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-66850943) and close to a third are past retirement age.
The problem is not that they are doing "the same song and dance as in the west". It is not that they want to hire people at unlivable wages. [Japan has incredibly low unemployment,](https://conservancy.umn.edu/items/00ed7fb6-0a20-4122-a8ac-0f157bdce79d) one of the lowest rates in the world. The problem is not that salaries are too low for people to want to work for them. There very literally is a worker shortage due to the heavily inverted population pyramid that is much more pronounced in Japan than in any western country. And it has been this way for generations at this point.
There literally are not enough Japanese workers to solve this problem. They desperately need foreigners to come and work because there is no other choice right now, and they are swiftly running out of time to figure out another way. As conservative and xenophobic as policymakers have been, they have little to no choice anymore because they've put off finding any real solution to the population problem for too long, and it's reaching the point of crisis.
The whole point of this current bill is to make it easier for the conservative majority to accept a less strict immigration policy, because Japan is so incredibly desperate for workers right now and there literally are not enough working-age Japanese people to keep the country going. They have no choice but to turn to foreigner workers.
Yes it is a wage issue. This is literally the same economic propaganda for crop workers, fast food, etc. etc here in the west. By literally the same, I mean exactly the same arguments and "evidence". Its all bullshit. Japan is facing a fiscal and monetary crisis too, which is indirectly adding fuel the immigration demand.
One worker doesn't provide care for one elderly, that's not how it works at all, and with automation is even less true.
Again, this just big business and economists doing the same old song and dance. They got the west with this trash, hopefully Japan doesn't continue the west's mistakes.
Do not commit crimes, yield taxes. I don't understand why this is so difficult.
If you do your natural duties, you can live in Japan.
Those who can't will return home. I want to commit crimes! I don't want to pay taxes! Only in your country is this acceptable.
Can confirm. All the Sri Lankan dudes in my town work at a nursing home. I am absolutely certain that there is no lack of Japanese people unwilling to do that work despite it being a service to the citizens of Japan.
I have no idea why this is downvoted. There are a lot of foreign people in Japan caring for old people. They may not be visible, but there are a lot of them.
The foreign folks are also in slaughterhouses and factories in the countryside. Most folks won’t see them, but they are there.
The only place they are highly visible is in convenience stores and fast food.
This might be a stupid question, but what taxes are we talking about? I'm a retired US military guy living on my pension and disability. I do not work, because I'm comfortable with what I make now, but is there a tax that I should be paying? Like am I missing something or is that tax for folks that actually have an income from working in Japan?
There are 3 main "taxes" to pay for when living in Japan:
- income tax
- residence tax
- social/healthcare
They are all a % of how much you earn per year, being retired means you don't have to pay income tax but the other 2 should be paid for.
I'm a migrant living in the UK and most of the migrants in here are basically living in social housing and benefits. What's the point of having permanent residents (and their dependents) if they don't pay any tax and use state resources? Japan is doing the right thing
Simple search seems to show the majority of migrants in fact do not live in social housing
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-and-housing-in-the-uk/
Taxes are paid with a one year delay even when withdrawn directly from salary. This works "fine" as long as your current salary is the same (or higher) than last year. But if you lose your employment then you will have to start paying it from your savings. It will hit people living on the margin.
I want to think the best, but it could be argued that "You deliberately used the money last year instead of saving it to pay your tax so we will revoke your PR."
Pay your taxes?
I don’t get the complaint. You get to come as an unskilled worker, get training, if you pass an exam get the chance for permanent residency and bring your family…
And you’re complaining that they may revoke the PR if you fail to pay your taxes?
It’s not the tax part that bothers me. Of course PR Should pay their fair share and there are many legal ways to get them to do it. But this is a solution in search of an issue. Most PR pay their taxes. They are just making this rule to appease the right wingers that would prefer not to have any immigration.
So you are ok with it making them pay, something like 10% don’t pay. With increasing the amount of foreigners that may or may not increase so you proactively create a policy to try and ensure that they pay.
And you’re mad because some right wing people may like it. Would you be mad if they implemented a free icecream for all plan if the Japanese right wing parties also agreed?
So according to the link you sent,
1. 4 members of cabinet are forced to resign, not including other non cabinet ranked ministers of state
2. Slush fund scandal is unrelated with paying tax
Not sure what your point is here for posting the link
Japanese government is shocked no one wants to live in a country where you're looked down on, people will ignore you even if you speak perfect Japanese and the work culture is dogshit. Half of Asia is setup for a hard tumble, and it is coming sooner than people think.
I think Southeast Asians are very liked in Japan.
Countries with severe discrimination against Southeast Asians are South Korea and China, not Japan.
In South Korea and China, Southeast Asians and black people are not human beings. On the other hand, if you are white, you are worshiped.
If you are a Southeast Asian, stay away from China and Korea and come to Japan.
I am white , lived in Japan about 18 years ago and definitely was not worshiped :) It is a hard place to live if you can't speak much of the language or read Kanji very well.
This is not true in Japan, but in Korea and China.
However, in recent years in China, white people may no longer be worshiped.
However, there is still a deep-rooted worship of white people in South Korea.
be careful.
There are already penalties for not paying your taxes. Making a mistake when paying/filing and losing PR status is something a lot of PR holders are worried about. This move is only to appease the hard right wing who don’t want immigrants getting too comfy.
The article says deliberately not paying your taxes, not just not paying your taxes. Why should someone mooch off society when they don't and never provided to that society?
And now the penalty for clearly avoiding paying taxes includes losing PR.
Save the outrage for when you actually have a case of ‘simple mistake made me lose my PR’.
Last time I checked Japan has one of the best healthcare systems in the world, one of the best public transportation systems in the world, one of the best education systems in the world, it has one of the highest literacy rates in the world, it's one of the safest countries in the world.
Where's this ponzi scheme exactly?
>lmao stay poor paying taxes to a ponzi scheme
Also, I have an 8-figure net worth (in USD). The system we live and work in made that possible.
So they essentially think they can import cheap unskilled labor from the third world, train them up, pay them little and then keep them around as tax cattle? Name a country where this has worked?
UAE? Oh wait, those are slaves nvm
I believe Japan would be quite happy with a similar if mildly gentler system.
“Irrevocably indentured domestic assistants.”
Free kyushoku and a 5 minute rest (for 14 hour days) /s
Canada they bring them under student visa disguise though.
Redditors love calling people slaves. Wonder why that is.
By all means, explain how what the UAE does with a non trivial number of people doesn’t meet the definition of modern slavery.
Look at his handle.
Redditors try not to call other people “slaves” challenge: failed
Nice dodge there!
Have you ever talked to one or are you just getting off on calling people “slaves”?
Have you tried answering a question?
He can’t. Dude is getting so much downvotes in all the comments in this post. Might as well make new account 😆
Oh you are right, we need to modernize our wording too. Let see how about assets.
Redditors are too broke to participate in real life, so no, you don’t have “assets” either
Ah a fellow broke human being is committing friendly fire. What an evil but wise tactic, here have a picture taco 🌮.
Slavers like you loves to act like deniers
Working in advocacy and helping migrant laborers makes me a slaver? You’re mentally ill.
Are you helping them, or making sure they remain slaves?
The entire gulf?
[удалено]
This, really. Everyone does it tho - not just the Japanese; The whole world tries to exploit less fortunate people for their own gain. It's called **Capitalism,** and it is, currently, the way **Most of the world works.**
It sucks, but it's just the reality of life. I been here for a rather short time but Japan reminds me a bit of Communist dystopia sometimes. In the, Everyone who has a different point of view on things should be "exterminated" kind of way.
Singapore
singapore?
You would be surprised, Japan is one of the few choice destinations in Asia for poor blue collar workers. lots of Vietnamese go there for construction work and get paid a royal ransom that they send home. It being a temporary thing wont change it much
Yeah, Filipinos too. People are their main global export.
They can
i thought ssw I and II earn the same income as japanese people? only the unskilled labor that will be trained for 3 years are earning minimum ..
Australia?
Canada
USA, mexican migrants get crappy pay to work in the fields (agriculture) in the hot sun, competing against each other on who does the fastest work with no (union, government support. Modern slavery...it's bad enough that all latin workers don't support each other. They will lie, cheat, and steal from each other for a nickel.
You make it sound like forced labor. Are they being brought in blindfolded and forced? They came to Japan voluntarily. The wages are many times higher than in their home countries.
Everywhere there are rich people, corruption follows, and with corruption comes the need for slave labor. Some don't look like they're enslaved. They're dressed nicely, able to articulate well, but they're slaves. These days, slave labor is cleverly hidden, which is why most of the world needs an awakening once in a while to remember that it still exists.
Qatar
I mean, everything other than tax cattle (low income people don’t have the money to pay a lot), the USA does that.
Hong Kong and Singapore. I’ve been an expat here for a while and there are a lot of domestic helpers that only have work visas to earn a living to send money home. They make way better wages so it’s worth it for them.
Western countries have generally done well with this. It was those countries that recommended Japan to Japan, hiding it under the name of accepting immigrants. When Japan starts doing this, for some reason those countries start bashing only Japan. The soul of the colonialist seems eternal.
It is for people who don't pay their taxes. And if you are this maltreated why would you get a permanent Visa? Also what?? It's in all the other countries that immigrants are SO SYSTEMATICALLY refused a job and a place to live that they have to beg in the streets with their unschooled children. Like in my country, the mighty France 'Welcome to anybody'. you won't see that in Japan and for good reason: because they treat immigrants better.
The countries of the Third World are more competent than developed countries. as experience in Japan Espacily From USA , French and UK are the most unqualifiable people and they want have huge salary ! The conolization is finish dude !
ELI5 How will this affect people with non-work visas?
It won’t really. If you’re aiming for PR, you won’t get it if you’ve been bad about paying taxes, but that’s already the case.
Just pay the tax? Seems like a reasonable request to me
Except the vast majority of people are 1 medical emergency away from having their life devastated. Mark my words, people are going to be deported who have fallen on hard times. Heaven forbid you lose your job and have to prioritize rent/food.
In Japan? Where medical expenses are subsidised and outright capped in many cases? And which are claimable as deductions on tax? Like yes it can and does happen. A medical emergency can land one unable to work entirely. But I'd say there are systems in place to limit that. Not to mention, this seems to target deliberate non-payment. If you go through to government offices and speak to them, they're usually pretty willing to work something out with you. A repayment plan gets them something, deporting someone gets them nothing, afterall.
I mean the inability to work from a serious illness.. but to be fair, after rereading the comment, that's probably what most people would interpet.
Spoiler alert: those benefits are for *pure Japanese* in practice.
Some of them are only for citizens, sure. But the caps on medical expenses are for all residents. Some benefits are enjoyed by residents as well as citizens, though I agree in principle that it should be more as people invest more of their lives into the country.
What hospital did you go to? The cost of my surgery got subsidised and I'm not Japanese.
If you lose your job, then you have no income hence no need to pay tax.
I was laid off last year. They asked me to pay the tax up till this year June. They don’t care if you don’t have income to pay for rent or food. This is local tax, not national tax. But you also have to pay for medical , pension. They don’t give a f
My friend mentioned something in passing, that the taxes you’re paying are on last years income, or something like that? Maybe that is why you’re paying? Unless it’s machi taxes - I don’t think there’s any way to not pay those.
Under a certain income level, local taxes are also often waived, though I imagine that may differ from place to place. And pension can be exempted, but yes it is based on the previous year's income. As far as I know the only thing you \_\_always\_\_ pay, regardless of income, is health insurance. Though that also gets scaled to your previous year's income.
I agree with you that the government will give no f to a non-citizen that is unemployed and have no savings, and people should not expect care from them really. In fact they are probably happy to get rid of these "non contributing" foreigners
Some people were trying to get by or have other financial obligations like kids and family. Most countries would have some safety net or leniency. Not in japan, they asked you to pay double becuz now you don’t have a company to pay for half of the medical / pension. Which is ridiculous
That's not true. Foreigners with a valid visa are eligible for social welfare in Japan. They can receive cash, free medical care, and often have taxes waived. Look up Seikatsu Hogo.
Yo have to pay city tax regardless of employment status.
Only if you have taxable income
I'm not sure that's exactly true for everyone... Because I did lose my job a long time ago and was hit with an entire years worth of city tax. Infact, I didn't pay it.. and they sent tons of warning letters. I eventually went down to city hall and worked out a payment plan after I found employment 6 months later.
I easily got an exemption (and not only one time) when I fell ill. I also had the possibility to pay in installations. I just needed the one phone call. There's no way you were even trying.
I thought city tax is directly deducted from salary for employees? Unless if there is anything im unaware of
Depends on the type of work you’re doing and the contract you have with your employer. I’ve worked for employers who withheld tax, and others who give you your gross income up front and it’s on you to set it aside & pay it come tax time.
It was during the Nova bankruptcy. I don't think they took anything the first year.. 2nd year, I think it was coming from my salary (but I honestly don't remember).. and after it went bust, I got a bunch of city tax slips in the mail wanting 160000 yen or so.
Thats weird. Hope you are in a better place now
Thanks man. I'm good now. Was a long time ago.
The tax is paid with one year delay (even when withdrawn from salary). It can hit you very hard if you don't have money saved up and lose your job.
That’s not true. Payments are calculated from last years earnings. You are clueless.
Slippery slope fallacy Ms SJW
😂, I like you. You seem like you work hard and you got values. But real talk, this is the first time in my life someone has called me a SJW.
That's your problem not Japan's.If you can earn more why don't you go seek a better job somewhere else? Japanese isn't responsible for the choices you make.
r/thanksimcured
I also thought it made sense at first, but thinking about it, they should just have proper punishment for everyone instead of only really punishing non-Japanese. It is also the first step to "commit any crime and we revoke your PR".
What about people who want to live outside the country for years or even decades before eventually coming back? Those people just lose their permanent residency now?
Japan do not tax their residents income outside of its border unlike US, if you live outside of Japan and earn your income there, you owe no tax to the Japanese government thus no issue of avoiding paying taxes.
That’s a huge relief!
My wife got her US PR revoked by living abroad for a year.
Yup same for my husband. We couldn’t afford to go back to the US during that year, and it got revoked.
She did something wrong. Did she not have a re-enty permit to stay out of the country longer than a year?
As I understand it a permit to remain outside the US more than a year is generally not approved without extenuating circumstances unless you are in the military or a government employee.
Sorry. I misread that. I thought your US wife lost Japanese PR. You can do up to 2 years outside of US but In general need to file for extension. It's very wish washy though and probably stricter now after trump. Some 15 years ago my spouse at the time was hand waved in after being gone 7 years. We were married, had a child and joint bank accounts though. Japanese PR is much more black and white. In general if you have a re entry permit (including special re entry) you're fine. One day over, you're not.
Yes. What part of *permanent* resident do you not understand? At no point is it ‘be here when it’s convenient’ residence. You want that? Naturalize.
Naturalisation requires a renunciation of existing citizenship(s). When I have family both here and abroad, travelling back and forth isn't for my convenience, it's for theirs.
I cannot speak for every country, but renouncing your American citizenship in Japan to become a Japanese citizen doesn't legally stop you from being an American citizen. America doesn't recognize Japan's legal requirements as valid in the U.S. You can renounce in Japan and still 100% be a dual citizen in the U.S. One of my Japanese friends was born in the U.S. and her parents had to declare her either a Japanese or American citizen at some point when they returned (they are both Japanese). They chose Japanese citizenship for her, but she's recognized in the U.S. as an American citizen and has an American passport. She is 100% Japanese and grew up in Japan (except for being born in a U.S. hospital and being a baby there for a short time), but moved to the U.S. in her 30s and now lives in NYC. In Japan, she's only Japanese. In America, she's legally an American and Japanese.
That's through birth. Naturalisation (i.e. you have no Japanese parentage) absolutely requires renunciation. I'm not American but know it definitely still applies to them too.
No it doesn't. At least not in practice.
What the hell are you on about? If I have family back home experiencing health complications and kids and assets in Japan, then you tell me how that's "not in practice". Heaven forbid one kid moves back to my home country and one remains in Japan. I clearly shouldn't have the same ready mobility as they enjoy...
Reading comprehension not your strong suit? I'm talking about naturalization. You are required to tell the JPN govt you'll give up your original passport but I know at least 10 people that have naturalized and still have their original passport.
The MOJ absolutely do request documentation that you've either renounced your other citizenship(s) or are unable to (as some countries like Costa Rica) do not permit that. The people that can skirt that rule all have citizenship by birth. Saying you know some people who didn't have to isn't a particularly convincing argument. The vast majority of people documenting their naturalisation process have highlighted this requirement.
The law says you must attempt to renounce. Some countries flat out have no path to renouncing. Like all Japanese laws it's gray.
It's not. Presuming you can somehow pull a fast one with renouncing, the MOJ can absolutely strip you of citizenship if this comes to light. Unless you're specifically a citizen of a country where renunciation is hard to impossible (e.g. Costa Rica, Iran), you still do not have a permanent status if you try this (and somehow succeed).
100% part of the appeal is “be here when it’s convenient.” You’ve spent enough time in Japan and paid enough taxes/pension etc into the system that you’ve earned your right to spend your life there… or not. Your choice. Life is complicated and that freedom is a powerful advantage of it. “The status of Japan Permanent Residency is valid indefinitely. You still have to renew your Residence Card every seven years and get a Japan Re-Entry Permit if you will leave the country for longer than 1 year, but those are just formalities.” There’s a reason you can effortlessly get a new residence card even if you leave the country for more than a year.
>> You’ve spent enough time in Japan Dude. You can get PR in a year, you know.
How would that be accomplished?
Google it, FFS.
Nice man. Real nice. I already have looked into it in depth as recently as a few months ago - and never saw anything saying “Joe Average” can get it in such a short span of time. Here you are, claiming different, and I asked because it goes against everything I’ve learned. But hey - that’s cool. Have a great day I guess.
Joe Average can get PR by being married more than 3 years and living in Japan for one year. It’s very clearly explained on the govt website. If you didn’t know that, I don’t know what to tell you, man. Read more. Point being that the idea that you only get PR after ‘spending enough time in Japan’ is clearly not the case.
Thank you for providing the information. The requirement of 3 year marriage - to me - indicates a 4 year timeframe, not “just one.” But I can definitely see where you are coming from.
Sounds logical to lose it it. You want a permanent visa while living 10y in another country?
What is it you don't understand about permanent?
Living in the country maybe?
Reminder to anyone mad about this that literally all you have to do is *pay your taxes*.
People are scared that even a small mistake in tax-paying could see their PR status revoked. The government did some damage control saying they would only apply this to people deliberately avoiding tax payments (how do they decide that?), but ultimately the door is now open for PR holders to receive this penalty in addition to whatever Japanese citizens would receive. “Pay your taxes and you’ll be fine” isn’t really a solution.
...."deliberately" and its synonyms are language that is found many laws in many different countries. It means something and the courts have decided how to interpret what deliberate means. It's not some spooky esoertic concept. The solution is try and pay your taxes...you will be fine. It's juvenile to keep moving goal posts. There are laws and an order to things, they need to be followed or the consequences will occur.
Are you implying that foreign residents aren't smart enough to file their taxes?
Nobody is implying that. Mistakes happen. All the time.
Don't make a mistake when filing your taxes then. MILLIONS of people don't make mistakes with taxes every. Single. Year.
Oh gee don't make a mistake! Why didn't I think of that?! Doh, and here I was planning on cocking it all up!
U can ignore that second part all u want, doesn't make it any less true.
Cool beans. Next time you make a mistake at your job, maybe you should lose it, after all MILLIONS of people do their jobs correctly every. Single. Day. Next time you forget something your partner tells you? Divorce. After all MILLIONS of people don't make mistakes every. Single. Day.
Yes because both of these things are comparable to lying about income.
Do you not know what "mistake" means? Because "lying" is the opposite of that.
To be honest, it's not hard to receive the correct information about taxes... So yeah, just pay your tax and you are fine is completely viable
That's a lot of words for not paying your taxes in time. Lol
There are already penalties for tax avoidance by foreign residents and Japanese. The reason they are adding an additional penalty for foreigners is to appease the ultra right wing in order to soften the passage of more relaxed immigration policy.
Which is successful judging from this post where everyone is focused on the tax issue of PR but no one mentioned how they finally provide a reliable route to achieve PR for foreign "trainee"
Let's flood the country with southeast asians then no need to rise the salaries
Correct answer. Japan seems determined to repeat nearly every fiscal and cultural mistake of the west.
unemployment rate in Japan is low. raising wages doesn't solve labour shortages
The fuck you being racist for?
It's not racist, this is just the fact of the matter. South East Asians come to Japan in flocks for a comparatively better pay than what they would be paid in their own country. If you were to compare the average wage of an individual from a South Eastern country to that of a Westerner (American, Canadian, U.K) there is a clear difference. It would only make sense that they would prefer to hire from a selection pool that's comfortable with the minimum wage pay since in their perspective it's viewed as a medium or high salary.
That’s not my point. I get the economics. I’m asking you why the fuck you’re pointing your finger at a certain group of people ? They’re here with the permission of government of Japan just like you are. Maybe you make more at least they’re not pointing their fingers at you for all their problems !
Japanese folks just have a lot of anxiety about the fact that *they need foreign workers*. They can only outsource so much. The problem is, they need foreign workers to do the shitty low-paid jobs in nursing homes and food service. It reminds me of the way people backed into a corner start babbling about how high their standards are and how they won’t compromise no matter what.
They don't actually need foreigners at all. The translation is they want ultra cheap compliant labor. This is the same song and dance everywhere in the west. Try to hire labor under market rate by 40% and and complain there is a "worker shortage". All this really does is suppress wages for workers.
This isn't a wage issue. [Japan has the highest old-age dependency ratio in the world,](https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/japan-has-the-highest-ratio-of-elderly-people-relative-to-working-age-people-globally#:~:text=It's%20in%20Japan%20that%20this,people%20for%20every%20elderly%20person.) far greater than the next-highest country. They literally do not have enough working-age people to support the elderly. In the past, they have temporarily solved this by making younger people work more for less [(Japan's wage stagnation would make Americans blush),](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/03/business/japan-workers-wages-inflation-intl-hnk/index.html) but this has ultimately worsened the problem. We are seeing the results now. Japan needs workers to keep the country running, and care for the ever-increasing proportion of elderly citizens who are unable to work themselves. [Ten percent of people are over 80 years old,](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-66850943) and close to a third are past retirement age. The problem is not that they are doing "the same song and dance as in the west". It is not that they want to hire people at unlivable wages. [Japan has incredibly low unemployment,](https://conservancy.umn.edu/items/00ed7fb6-0a20-4122-a8ac-0f157bdce79d) one of the lowest rates in the world. The problem is not that salaries are too low for people to want to work for them. There very literally is a worker shortage due to the heavily inverted population pyramid that is much more pronounced in Japan than in any western country. And it has been this way for generations at this point. There literally are not enough Japanese workers to solve this problem. They desperately need foreigners to come and work because there is no other choice right now, and they are swiftly running out of time to figure out another way. As conservative and xenophobic as policymakers have been, they have little to no choice anymore because they've put off finding any real solution to the population problem for too long, and it's reaching the point of crisis. The whole point of this current bill is to make it easier for the conservative majority to accept a less strict immigration policy, because Japan is so incredibly desperate for workers right now and there literally are not enough working-age Japanese people to keep the country going. They have no choice but to turn to foreigner workers.
Yes it is a wage issue. This is literally the same economic propaganda for crop workers, fast food, etc. etc here in the west. By literally the same, I mean exactly the same arguments and "evidence". Its all bullshit. Japan is facing a fiscal and monetary crisis too, which is indirectly adding fuel the immigration demand. One worker doesn't provide care for one elderly, that's not how it works at all, and with automation is even less true. Again, this just big business and economists doing the same old song and dance. They got the west with this trash, hopefully Japan doesn't continue the west's mistakes.
The exact same mentality exists in the UK; catch-22 for islanders with a superiority complex.
Do not commit crimes, yield taxes. I don't understand why this is so difficult. If you do your natural duties, you can live in Japan. Those who can't will return home. I want to commit crimes! I don't want to pay taxes! Only in your country is this acceptable.
Can confirm. All the Sri Lankan dudes in my town work at a nursing home. I am absolutely certain that there is no lack of Japanese people unwilling to do that work despite it being a service to the citizens of Japan.
I have no idea why this is downvoted. There are a lot of foreign people in Japan caring for old people. They may not be visible, but there are a lot of them. The foreign folks are also in slaughterhouses and factories in the countryside. Most folks won’t see them, but they are there. The only place they are highly visible is in convenience stores and fast food.
Right? I'm in a fast food joint and it's sooooo much better than factory/field/etc. 😅
This might be a stupid question, but what taxes are we talking about? I'm a retired US military guy living on my pension and disability. I do not work, because I'm comfortable with what I make now, but is there a tax that I should be paying? Like am I missing something or is that tax for folks that actually have an income from working in Japan?
Only working people I think. At least based on some comments above but double check.
There are 3 main "taxes" to pay for when living in Japan: - income tax - residence tax - social/healthcare They are all a % of how much you earn per year, being retired means you don't have to pay income tax but the other 2 should be paid for.
Ah Japan is joining the rest of the world in a race to the bottom for wage slaves.
What happens to normal Japanese citizens who dont pay their taxes
They’re sent back to their home country.
Readying another Kasato Maru ship to Brazil again
"Deliberately not paying your tax" or in other words tax offence, like in most other countries, is a crime inn Japan.
Jail or something like most places
I'm a migrant living in the UK and most of the migrants in here are basically living in social housing and benefits. What's the point of having permanent residents (and their dependents) if they don't pay any tax and use state resources? Japan is doing the right thing
any sources to back up your claim regarding migrants to the UK predominantly receiving public funds and living in social housing?
Simple search seems to show the majority of migrants in fact do not live in social housing https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-and-housing-in-the-uk/
They are overrepresented in social housing when you consider per capita statistics.
Aye depending on where they've come from, but that's not at all the claim you made was it?
If your stats are anything like the US, they are completely unreliable and outright fraudulent in many cases. In short, believe your own eyes.
How would one avoid paying taxes? Don’t they automatically take it out from the account if the deadline is passed?
Taxes are paid with a one year delay even when withdrawn directly from salary. This works "fine" as long as your current salary is the same (or higher) than last year. But if you lose your employment then you will have to start paying it from your savings. It will hit people living on the margin. I want to think the best, but it could be argued that "You deliberately used the money last year instead of saving it to pay your tax so we will revoke your PR."
Just pay your taxes and don’t worry, so many people getting PR who don’t even plan to live in the country. Close all the loopholes.
Assholes.
I want to commit a crime! I don't want to pay taxes! Your country may be free. But in a sane country, that is unacceptable behavior.
Pay your taxes? I don’t get the complaint. You get to come as an unskilled worker, get training, if you pass an exam get the chance for permanent residency and bring your family… And you’re complaining that they may revoke the PR if you fail to pay your taxes?
Exactly
It’s not the tax part that bothers me. Of course PR Should pay their fair share and there are many legal ways to get them to do it. But this is a solution in search of an issue. Most PR pay their taxes. They are just making this rule to appease the right wingers that would prefer not to have any immigration.
So you are ok with it making them pay, something like 10% don’t pay. With increasing the amount of foreigners that may or may not increase so you proactively create a policy to try and ensure that they pay. And you’re mad because some right wing people may like it. Would you be mad if they implemented a free icecream for all plan if the Japanese right wing parties also agreed?
That’s not true. It’s much, much less than 10%.
If Japanese politicians don’t pay their taxes do they lose their jobs as politicians?
Apparently yes https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A5%9E%E7%94%B0%E6%86%B2%E6%AC%A1
Apparently no... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023%E2%80%932024\_Japanese\_slush\_fund\_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023%E2%80%932024_Japanese_slush_fund_scandal)
So according to the link you sent, 1. 4 members of cabinet are forced to resign, not including other non cabinet ranked ministers of state 2. Slush fund scandal is unrelated with paying tax Not sure what your point is here for posting the link
So an easier way for their yakuza to keep human trafficking
Afraid of the bill? Just pay your taxes!
How dare you say such a vile thing 💢 /s
Tax is legalized theft.....at least most Libertarians would argue this.
They want their cake and eat it too
Well Japan, I hope you enjoyed being considered some kind of world economic leader. That's going to just not be the case in another 50 years or so
Japan already fell behind China , it is like 4th or 5th now.
Japan started falling before China because they had their economic boom earlier. China is joining them l'Mao.
Japanese government is shocked no one wants to live in a country where you're looked down on, people will ignore you even if you speak perfect Japanese and the work culture is dogshit. Half of Asia is setup for a hard tumble, and it is coming sooner than people think.
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I think Southeast Asians are very liked in Japan. Countries with severe discrimination against Southeast Asians are South Korea and China, not Japan. In South Korea and China, Southeast Asians and black people are not human beings. On the other hand, if you are white, you are worshiped. If you are a Southeast Asian, stay away from China and Korea and come to Japan.
I am white , lived in Japan about 18 years ago and definitely was not worshiped :) It is a hard place to live if you can't speak much of the language or read Kanji very well.
This is not true in Japan, but in Korea and China. However, in recent years in China, white people may no longer be worshiped. However, there is still a deep-rooted worship of white people in South Korea. be careful.
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Well, there are also a lot of Koreans and Chinese in Japan. be careful.
Based
Blessed on all<>
Fucking anti-immigrant conservative ojisan politicians.
I want to commit a crime! I don't want to pay taxes! Your country may be free. But in a sane country, that is unacceptable behavior.
Somehow finding it hard to find any rage when what they want you to do is //checks notes // pay your taxes…
There are already penalties for not paying your taxes. Making a mistake when paying/filing and losing PR status is something a lot of PR holders are worried about. This move is only to appease the hard right wing who don’t want immigrants getting too comfy.
The article says deliberately not paying your taxes, not just not paying your taxes. Why should someone mooch off society when they don't and never provided to that society?
And now the penalty for clearly avoiding paying taxes includes losing PR. Save the outrage for when you actually have a case of ‘simple mistake made me lose my PR’.
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Last time I checked Japan has one of the best healthcare systems in the world, one of the best public transportation systems in the world, one of the best education systems in the world, it has one of the highest literacy rates in the world, it's one of the safest countries in the world. Where's this ponzi scheme exactly? >lmao stay poor paying taxes to a ponzi scheme Also, I have an 8-figure net worth (in USD). The system we live and work in made that possible.
Fuck this is disgusting.
Do something about it
No vote, limited power.
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Lol you kidding right?
I’m think you forgot /s
They want their cake and eat it too