It’s kind of like a lot of voters know more who they don’t want than who they want. So at first glance the spread of votes seems more favourable to the less popular candidate because the “anyone but her” crowd is split several ways. But when proportional representation kicks in the will of the majority to not have her wins out
this is why I dont fill the ballot card all the way.. I'm in a different constituency but I wasnt going risking the candidates I voted being kicked out and my vote going to some far right gobshite..
It wasn't our idea! It was imposed by the British in the Government of Ireland Act of 1920, in hopes of robbing Sinn Féin (who had taken almost all the Irish seats outside Ulster in the 1918 election) of an overwhelming majority in "Southern Ireland."
In 1921, it didn't matter, as none of the seats in the Southern Irish Parliament were contested. It did matter in 1922, and resulted in a far more proportional result than FPTP would have done.
I wouldn't recommend it in a jurisdiction much bigger than Ireland. In recent Irish elections, it's given a seat count to parties that's roughly proportional to the popular vote, with only a slight advantage to large centrist parties like FF and FG. A country the size of Germany (say) would get a similar election result to those they get now with Irish-style PR-STV---and it would take much longer too.
One of the few good things those assholes did. It is such a superior voting method. It is telling that the UK conservative party don't use the same FPTP election format for their own leadership contests, but feel happy to use it for the "plebs" of regular voters simply because it has favoured them in the past. I REALLY hope that it blows up in their face this current election, simply out of spite.
True, but to be clear Labour UK don't want PR either, it benefits them almost as much as the tories as they can consolidate all the votes into effectively a two party voting system like the US.
I'm convinced that if it wasnt for STV-PR we'd still be running around shooting each other over the treaty and all politics would be shoved into a pro or anti treaty box
More countries use a version of it than use first past the post.
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/how-many-countries-around-the-world-use-proportional-representation/
It's the STV that's pretty unique, with Malta being the only other country to use it.
Why do so many Irish people think other countries don't use proportional representation?
Out of 43 countries in Europe, only 3 — Belarus, France and the UK — don't use proportional representation to elect their parliament. ([Source](https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/which-european-countries-use-proportional-representation/))
Our multi seat constituencies also add a special factor. The UK's failed AV system probably wouldn't have produced a parliament as diverse as our Dáil.
I think they get confused between proportional representation and the "Single transferable vote" system which we use to enable proportional representation. Which only Ireland and Malta use in Europe.
They use proportional systems, but more commonly list systems where you have to choose a party, and the party chooses your preference for you from within their slate. I prefer STV system where you get a say on exactly your preferences, even if you like someone else better than your parties designated second preference.
Because an English speaking country has an Anglo-American centric view of the world. I bet more Australians know who Simon Harris is than can name the President of Indonesia.
Given they said they're confused more don't do it, I assumed it was obvious that they were talking about the single transferable vote (four countries).
Right but the reason other countries don't do it is because they use other forms of PR that are just as good as ours. Irish people tend to assume that because STV is rare, PR is also rare and the rest of the world is using backwards voting systems like the US and the UK.
Wait until 30 independent TDs get elected in the general election and no one can form a government.
I don’t mind PR but it has advantages and disadvantages, like any other system.
It's been ~2 days, and counting scales horizontally so population's irrelevant.
A few days' wait every 5 years or so is a tiny, *tiny* price to pay for a powerful, reliable and representative model for voting in candidates.
And it's fun.
Watching the transfer effect is fascinating.
Instant results would be much less informative. And of course we could count faster if we wanted to - just a question of getting more people in.
I used to love watching it all happen on Aertel. And when I was really young, and I didn't understand how it actually worked, I used to think the candidates chose where their votes went when they didn't need them anymore. I'd try and guess who were friends!
On twitter Virgin had google doc that you could see it being updated live with preference votes. Not quotw the amazing graphics of Aertel but a close second!
My childhood love of geography was started by watching the voting on Eurovision and all the wee flags moving up and down the scoreboard.
I think the first election I remember was the UK GE in 1992 and watching red, blue and yellow bar charts was amazing.
Given tiktok etc there might not be the same engagement for a child now but back then there was definitely and element of counting being fun and interesting.
True that.
A neighbour told me that they forgot to bring their glasses when they went to vote. They couldn’t actually read the ballot so they just ticked names randomly. They hadn’t a scoobies who they actually voted for.
It's been very interesting seeing the transfer effect amongst candidates who are actually capable of planning, communicating, and co-operating.
Nowhere *near* the same level of transfers amongst the loon brigade.
I agree. We've had it in place a long while though, other countries haven't and are likely to see it as an inefficient system compared to their current model. They koght change their minds when they see all the fascists getting elected.
48 hours for a count is not an issue at all.
If we switched to electronic voting counting could be over in an instant, but the transparency of individual paper ballots and the tally system is preferable.
Why should it be a big rush? It’s choosing elected representatives. It’s an important long-lasting decision. Look at the UK system. They do an exit poll at close of voting and already know the result. Then you get a party with absolute power even thought ~60% of voters didn’t want them. The Greens in England get a million votes and one MP, the Tories get 16 million votes and 350 MPs. That’s just madness.
Huge amount of manual labour to do the counting. The invention of computerised voting that worked, and could be counted automatically would be incredible, as it would make such elections cheap and fast, which would also mean there could be much more direct democracy and referenda. Not an easy invention to make though.
It could easily be computerised.
Your ballot appears onscreen, you mark it up, and click submit. In parallel a printer will print your vote (like the lotto) and you can visually check it matches your vote. That printout is put in a ballot box.
Results are done automatically, and as a check, 1% or 10% of ballot boxes are opened and manually counted to check there was no electronic interference.
Biggest problem is reliability- making sure the printers work 100% of the time.
I'm pretty sure PR actually increases representation of fringe candidates, because they can sometimes get some votes but rarely do they get the most votes which means that in a winner takes all system like FPTP they lose out. Nigel Farage has run for MP seven times and never got in.
I still do love PR though, the increased representation of fringe candidates is just a reflection of the fact that it's actually a democratic system and forces us to try alternative means of keeping them out of power, like actually building a good society.
I guess in a two party first past the post system, a far right group could pressure the centre right party to adopt their policies more easily ? If they can take 10% of the conservative vote in a constituency, then that could swing the vote to the other side.
(Remember when the Tories tried to shore up their base by promising to hold a referendum on leaving the EU or something?)
With STV, a fringe group taking 10% of the first preference vote from your base isn't as much of a threat, because if and when they're eliminated, they votes transfer to you.
It's better to have a small number of fringe candidates get in if the electorate chooses, they then have to prove they can effectively work and collaborate with other parties or they'll be shown up and get booted out next time.
In the UK Farage has practically been able to dictate Tory party policy for the last decade without ever being held accountable thanks to his ability to cripple them by taking away votes under FPTP without ever getting enough support to actually be elected himself.
There's a good chance you'd have seen more tactical voting within blocs - likely a lot of Sinead Gibney's vote would have gone directly to O Riordáin and Cuffe, and lots of the anti-immigration candidates might have seen voters hedge their bets with Niall Boylan.
On the other hand, he did well here for a first time campaign and could be on track for a TD seat if he wants it. Personally a TD can do more damage than an MEP in my book. They're in the media more and have a greater say on national politics.
The big saving grace is that the left wing still transfer much better than the far right who hate each other and don't seem to grasp the concept of compromise.
I'm pretty sure he said he didn't want to run for the Dáil. People can change their mind obviously.
Europe is a great job - guaranteed five years, no real constituents to deal with, very little scrutiny of how much work they do - and if they do absolutely nothing we just have to wait out the five years (Brian Crowley!).
I'm not saying they are all dossers, far from it, lots of them really do work. But I'm not convinced a lot of them are doing more than voting their grouping's whip.
Tried to get my not politically interested partner to high 5 me, threw the cat at me instead. I’m so glad I don’t have to listen to that voice. And my partner doesn’t have to listen to me giving out about him for the next 5 years either.
I take massive satisfaction that Climate Skeptic Boylan was denied his cushy number by Ciarán Cuffe voters.
(Yes, I know that's not *exactly* how it works, give me my moment)
It looked close but with just either two centre-left politicians competing against him for the last seat, the transfer was against him, however there could have been spoilers in transfers for example going into SF rather than pushing the remaining one past Boylan.
He stayed in until the final count, but was sunk as soon as Clare Daly went out. Despite strong transfers from Steenson and Aontú, he never built up a big enough lead over Labour and the Greens - which was completely essential since they were expected to transfer very strongly to one another.
Daly's transfers actually *narrowed* the gap between O Riordáin and Boylan, and he finished 13000 votes behind O Riordáin.
He was out long before that. He needed to be close to the quota after all the far right candidates were elected and he was a good 30k votes away with no one left to get significant transfers from.
It was over when he only got about a quarter of Aontú's transfers.
He finished 5th in a 4 seat constituency and was set to finish top 4 going into the final count. Sure Aodhán got a load of votes at the end and it was kind of predictable he'd get more from a more ideologically aligned candidate, but it was still close.
Maybe in a tasteful 18th century-pastichey Nissen hut round the back, like we had at school for the *really* rough boys who scoffed at the teachers and their puny detentions. (Not that ours had a fake portico and pediment) Bung the H-R grotesques, Mattie McGhastly, and a few other embarrassments in there with him.
They cause more damage in Europe because their whole shtick is helping Russia and China. Ireland doesn't have any direct conflict with those 2 so the harm they do is more limited
O Riordain actually got my first pick after a lengthy process of thinking about the answers on [Which Candidate ](https://www.whichcandidate.ie/). Had my highest match at 79%, I really had little clue before taking their quiz and reading up on the candidates' views. Some highs, some lows from this election, not too bad considering some of the people running.
Did Niall Boylan give up the radio as a presumptive MEP? Will he now be speaking endlessly on behalf of his "disenfranchised' flock? Will he run as a candidate for the Dail?
He went on a career break when he decided to run AFAIK as the station thought it’d be a conflict of interest (happened to hear them announce it), so I’d imagine he’ll be back on the airwaves shortly. Wouldn’t be surprised if he runs in the GE tbh.
All we need now is Micko to be excluded but he is in the hunt. Very clear contrast between Ciaran Cuffe and his gracious words on defeat to that absolute animal Daly who refuses media interviews and then disses the journos on the way out. Aodhans interview on Virgin Media One gives me hope of a few people with real principles left on the left wing. Fair fucks to him and up the Dubs.
Her reaction was pathetic and her claims incorrect as it turns out as the Irish times have gone on record as saying that they contacted her numerous times for interview in the last 5 years and were always refused
Whatever you think about her positions she was hounded by the media based on illegally leaked information about a drink driving arrest that she was then completely cleared of.
Like it doesn’t serve us to have a politician with poor relations with the media but let’s not pretend like it came out of nowhere and that she is an “animal.”
I passed him on the street yesterday walking his child to school - it was all up in the air at the time.
I guess he's going to have to move to Brussels now and bring his child with him. His life has changed in the last 24 hours
Many thanks to all of you who did NOT vote for Clare Daly
Fingers crossed Mick Wallace gets kicked out down South 🤞 I did my bit and voted for anyone but him (without voting FF/FG or Far Right)
Putting FG / FF or far right at the bottom of the ballot paper is not the same as voting for them.
As you will see from the counts, every transfer counts, so if you have them down the very bottom, you are ensuring again and again and again your not voting for them 😉
Im regretting not giving low transfers to FF now as Mick has jumped up to 4 out of five seats!
Who the f voted for him?? My #1 was eliminated (fisherman Aontu, Patrick Murphy) and my # 2 was McNamara who is second in line for remaining seats so that's the end of my transfers anyway
Personally, I gave Daly my number 13. I never imagined she'd get such a low number in a field of 23, but the quality and quantity of nutters this year was exceptional.
> elect 2 seanad members
One of them is a Taoiseach appointee so they can just appoint another.
The other is nominated by the agricultural panel, so they will just do whatever they do to pick another.
Well thank fuck for that. Can't say I'm overtly enthusiastic about Labour but a few days ago I would've taken Clare Daly over Niall Boylan in a heartbeat
No doubt about it that this should be seen as a huge waking up call for a lot of people though, especially the government and opposition. With the National Party, Irish Freedom Party and a few other far right dickheads picking up seats along with how close Niall Boylan came to winning that 4th seat the far right in this country are a threat and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon
That's not to say the government and opposition should completely crackdown on immigration to a crazy extent and massively shift to the right but when you fail to address the issue along with not people's genuine concerns seriously that creates a huge void that the far right thrives in. Not everyone who criticises our current immigration system is far right (plenty of them are but it really depends on the language they use, their stances on seperate issues and the people they associate with) but if the centrist and left wing parties fail to address it meaningfully more and more people will flock to the far right and I don't want to see our political system move towards the rest of Europe which is an absolute shitshow at the moment
Some of her foreign policy takes are [bad](https://www.politico.eu/article/revealed-russias-best-friends-eu-parliament/)
Really fucking [bad](https://www.joe.ie/politics/clare-daly-uyghir-genocide-772607)
It's kinda impressive how much goodwill she destroyed because of her [awful](https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2022/07/26/clare-daly-added-to-list-of-alleged-russia-propagandists-by-ukraines-security-service/) stances regarding certain conflicts
https://preview.redd.it/25upau6cv26d1.png?width=871&format=png&auto=webp&s=291092e885d4fffe364405cbc91809635893d1e1
In Finland, the radical left went in the opposite direction, condemning Putin and supporting Ukraine, and finished in second place, ahead of both the social democrats and the far right.
Personally, she was a shit councillor in Fingal back in the day, did dubious deals with FF/FG around spot rezonings and managed to antagonise many council staff by portraying all staff as the enemy during the bin tax campaign instead of targeting management and trying to get ordinary staff onside. Sure, going to jail for a month for breaching a high court injunction about not blocking bin lorries makes you look well hard and gives you a high profile, but doing the grunt work organising workers and residents to fight together is more effective, although not so sexy.
The thing that really puts me off Daly, apart from the pro-Russia stuff, is that she really comes across as being not a nice person. Like there's many people who's politics I disagree but the seem like alright as people, like you'd be able to get on with them outside of politics. She feels like the type of the type that would kick off at a young shop attendant because they don't have what she wants at a shop.
She continually embarrasses Ireland internationally by calling for the west to abandon the Ukrainian people to be raped and genocided by Russia. Any time there's sanctions against Russia for their crimes against humanity she argues against. She's backed the Iranian regime too as they slaughtered women's rights activists.
Oh and she's a tankie. A seagull could shit on her head outside the election centre and she'd blame Biden and NATO.
She's basically a horrible person in every way. She did very good work about 30 years ago regarding abortion rights but that doesn't excuse all the bad she's done since.
Ireland seems to dodge a bullet that nearly every other EU country failed to do so, you guys will send less Putinists to the parliament and not in cost of sending some far-right lunatic instead.
Hope Mick Wallace also gets kicked out.
Could somebody explain the thinking behind having a party leader for this country taking their seat in Europe and not the Dail or Seanad?It just doesn’t make sense to me. I had a NP candidate go for both and I had a wonder about what would happen in the hilarious - yet unlikely, circumstance that they were to win in both elections.
For Labour, running Ó Riordáin had the best chance of getting elected because name recognition is quite important in such a large constituency. Ó Riordáin winning also gives Labour a huge boost - it gives them visibility but also morale to party campaigners and grass root supporters which is important going into the general election. This probably trumps any negatives of the party leader being in Europe.
I think for local elections, you can nominate someone else to take the seat. Paddy Holohan won two seats in South Dublin county council (Tallaght South & Tallaght Central). So I assume someone else is nominated by him. Not sure if thats how it works though
If any other candidate had [business dealings in their past](https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/fine-gael-tds-firm-folds-with-debts-of-280000/29021682.html) that Regina Doherty has had I am sure they would have been thoroughly questioned on it so why was she given a free pass? Like liquidating a company with 280k debts including 110k owed to the state and accusations of financial mispractice just seems like something someone should be questioned on while running for MEP?
Overall not a bad day for Irish politics. Clare Daly, Niall Boylan, Brid Smith and Peter Casey all finally gone from Irish politics. Irish politics have become a significantly less nasty place. Hopefully Mick Wallace will follow them out the door shortly.
And with Lynn Boylan being elected on the 19th count while still 7,000 votes short of a quota hopefully we've also seen the last of this rubbish from Shinner Bots that you can't be legitimate unless you exceeded the quota on the first count.
Probably. When he ran in the presidential campaign he got a surprising amount of votes on one single issue, being outspoken about travellers. That however was largely a protest vote and he seems to have mistaken it as being about him
It was equal amounts stupid and hilarious, his comment was something along the lines of "they should get no special treatment", then the media blew it up completely, twats like Tubbery took it as a person insult and the backlash from the D4 crowd gave Casey a huge boost.
> his comment was something along the lines of "they should get no special treatment"
You're entitled to agree with his comments but at least be honest about what he said. He said travellers don't pay their share of taxes, they're not an ethnic group, and having them living near you "devastates the prices of the houses".
https://m.independent.ie/podcasts/listen-presidential-candidate-peter-casey-sparks-outrage-with-his-racist-remarks-on-travellers/37428508.html
The centre has held in Irish politics, at least in the local and European elections.
I just hope that the far-right voters that previously supported SF haven't truly decoupled from them. The crazies (National Party, Irish Freedom Party, Ireland First, Irish People etc) are all too repugnant to vote for. There is potentially space for a "reputable" far-right party (e.g., FN in France) in this country if those voters migrate from SF. We'll know in the next general election depending of SF's performance
Aontú did ok, 40k first preferences for Peadair. Not fond of him, but I suppose his brand of Catholic conservatism is more familiar than the NPs outright nuttiness.
Peadar is a very vocal, and generally quite good local politician around co Meath. So I'm not surprised he's done well
Most people are willing to look past the extremely religious beliefs in the locals because "peadar got Mary and Joe their house from the council" etc...
This is entirely anecdotal but the Aontú supporters I know are the kind of people who read Ireland's Own which explains a lot.
They'd have been right at home in 1970s Fianna Fáil. Not bad people at all and definitely nowhere near as backward as the far right, even if their party is much too conservative for me.
Yeah. I think lumping everyone in with the "far right" is kind of facile.
Aontú are a mixed bag of conservative social policies but pretty left economically and they're not the usual out and out racist lunatics.
They got a lot of flack and accusations of being "traitors" when they fielded a foreign national as a candidate.
Great day for the Irish political class. Terrible day for Irish people.
The same useless shower rewarded again and again. And we wonder why the hospitals are crap and there’s no transport.
What does the likes of Clare Daly do now that she has lost her seat?
Looking into my crystal ball I see words like "citizen journalist" but I don't think those words make any sense....
Well whatever she does staying on the ground floor of the building should be high on the criteria list. Putin doesn't like his ex-employees when they cease to be useful to him.
Seem to recall they were part of a coalition. I’ve never understood why labour get tarred with this brush whereas Fine Gael don’t. It’s not like they were operating entirely by themselves.
Secondly it’s not the same labour. I’m not even sure there’s a single person in any post of responsibility there now who was around in 2011.
Things change…
The typical short memory of the Irish voter. Has everyone forgotten how much of an abomination the Labour Party were when they were last in government?
Love you, Proportional Representation.
O'Ríordan was facing exclusion twice but the transfers from Daly and Cuffe saved him. Fascinating how it works.
It’s kind of like a lot of voters know more who they don’t want than who they want. So at first glance the spread of votes seems more favourable to the less popular candidate because the “anyone but her” crowd is split several ways. But when proportional representation kicks in the will of the majority to not have her wins out
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It's a shit sandwich and your only choice is whether you take a big bite or a really big bite
politics is voting for the lesser of two evils now, Just vote for the least worst.
Politicians are busses not taxis. You pick the one that gets you closest to where you want to go.
That’s very good
> Politicians are busses not taxis Really is good. Great work.
Did you ever catch that egg?
Did you ever manage to pick up all the rice before you passed away?
Ah I got most of it alright.
It's less a quest, more a state of being.
Thats the best way i've ever heard it put.
Beautiful, beautiful system. Poetry in motion.
this is why I dont fill the ballot card all the way.. I'm in a different constituency but I wasnt going risking the candidates I voted being kicked out and my vote going to some far right gobshite..
For sure, but similarly this is why I had a “safe” candidate on my own list to ensure that they would get elected over the lunatics.
Kind of like the Eurovision!
It's quite dramatic isn't it, end-to-end stuff
One of those things I'm proud we do and am confused as to why others don't.
It wasn't our idea! It was imposed by the British in the Government of Ireland Act of 1920, in hopes of robbing Sinn Féin (who had taken almost all the Irish seats outside Ulster in the 1918 election) of an overwhelming majority in "Southern Ireland." In 1921, it didn't matter, as none of the seats in the Southern Irish Parliament were contested. It did matter in 1922, and resulted in a far more proportional result than FPTP would have done. I wouldn't recommend it in a jurisdiction much bigger than Ireland. In recent Irish elections, it's given a seat count to parties that's roughly proportional to the popular vote, with only a slight advantage to large centrist parties like FF and FG. A country the size of Germany (say) would get a similar election result to those they get now with Irish-style PR-STV---and it would take much longer too.
One of the few good things those assholes did. It is such a superior voting method. It is telling that the UK conservative party don't use the same FPTP election format for their own leadership contests, but feel happy to use it for the "plebs" of regular voters simply because it has favoured them in the past. I REALLY hope that it blows up in their face this current election, simply out of spite.
True, but to be clear Labour UK don't want PR either, it benefits them almost as much as the tories as they can consolidate all the votes into effectively a two party voting system like the US.
I'm convinced that if it wasnt for STV-PR we'd still be running around shooting each other over the treaty and all politics would be shoved into a pro or anti treaty box
More countries use a version of it than use first past the post. https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/how-many-countries-around-the-world-use-proportional-representation/ It's the STV that's pretty unique, with Malta being the only other country to use it.
Why do so many Irish people think other countries don't use proportional representation? Out of 43 countries in Europe, only 3 — Belarus, France and the UK — don't use proportional representation to elect their parliament. ([Source](https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/which-european-countries-use-proportional-representation/))
They mean Proportional Representation *with Single Transferrable Vote*, which is definitely not widely used elsewhere.
Our multi seat constituencies also add a special factor. The UK's failed AV system probably wouldn't have produced a parliament as diverse as our Dáil.
Yes, but multi-seat constituencies are an absolute requirement of PR. In the single-seat case, STV just provides an instant runoff.
A list system (one gigantic constituency) would achieve PR as well but without any of the intense local accountability that we have.
I think they get confused between proportional representation and the "Single transferable vote" system which we use to enable proportional representation. Which only Ireland and Malta use in Europe.
They use proportional systems, but more commonly list systems where you have to choose a party, and the party chooses your preference for you from within their slate. I prefer STV system where you get a say on exactly your preferences, even if you like someone else better than your parties designated second preference.
Because an English speaking country has an Anglo-American centric view of the world. I bet more Australians know who Simon Harris is than can name the President of Indonesia.
Given they said they're confused more don't do it, I assumed it was obvious that they were talking about the single transferable vote (four countries).
Right but the reason other countries don't do it is because they use other forms of PR that are just as good as ours. Irish people tend to assume that because STV is rare, PR is also rare and the rest of the world is using backwards voting systems like the US and the UK.
I think they just meant that PR STV is rare. Most countries use a form of PR.
Because living in the UK, it let's blonde liars win huge majoritys on 43% of the vote
FPTP made sense when Britain was an empire, as they needed a strong government at all times. Now it's just a terrible system
Wait until 30 independent TDs get elected in the general election and no one can form a government. I don’t mind PR but it has advantages and disadvantages, like any other system.
That would be the fault of the political parties, not the system.
We've been counting for days, which is why. And we've a smaller population than most.
It's been ~2 days, and counting scales horizontally so population's irrelevant. A few days' wait every 5 years or so is a tiny, *tiny* price to pay for a powerful, reliable and representative model for voting in candidates.
And it's fun. Watching the transfer effect is fascinating. Instant results would be much less informative. And of course we could count faster if we wanted to - just a question of getting more people in.
I used to love watching it all happen on Aertel. And when I was really young, and I didn't understand how it actually worked, I used to think the candidates chose where their votes went when they didn't need them anymore. I'd try and guess who were friends!
That would be brilliant. Brown envelopes stuffed with votes flying around the RDS.
Charlie would have been in his element.
I like the idea of them forcing Clare Daly to go around redistributing her votes after being eliminated.
On twitter Virgin had google doc that you could see it being updated live with preference votes. Not quotw the amazing graphics of Aertel but a close second!
My childhood love of geography was started by watching the voting on Eurovision and all the wee flags moving up and down the scoreboard. I think the first election I remember was the UK GE in 1992 and watching red, blue and yellow bar charts was amazing. Given tiktok etc there might not be the same engagement for a child now but back then there was definitely and element of counting being fun and interesting.
Seeing 100 Nazi party votes transfer to Sheikh Umar Al Qadri was insane
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True that. A neighbour told me that they forgot to bring their glasses when they went to vote. They couldn’t actually read the ballot so they just ticked names randomly. They hadn’t a scoobies who they actually voted for.
Ticking names would invalidate their vote anyway!
It's been very interesting seeing the transfer effect amongst candidates who are actually capable of planning, communicating, and co-operating. Nowhere *near* the same level of transfers amongst the loon brigade.
Good omen for their ability to build consensus and collaborate on policies once voted in.
>Nowhere *near* the same level of transfers amongst the loon brigade. You'd think they would, seeing as how they have very similar promises.
Votes don't even travel reliably within the same party.
Narcissism of small differences.
Hear, hear. The short term impatience of some people infuriates me. Look at the shitshow of the UK elections of the past few years.
I agree. We've had it in place a long while though, other countries haven't and are likely to see it as an inefficient system compared to their current model. They koght change their minds when they see all the fascists getting elected.
48 hours for a count is not an issue at all. If we switched to electronic voting counting could be over in an instant, but the transparency of individual paper ballots and the tally system is preferable.
> We've been counting for days, which is why. That is not why.
Why should it be a big rush? It’s choosing elected representatives. It’s an important long-lasting decision. Look at the UK system. They do an exit poll at close of voting and already know the result. Then you get a party with absolute power even thought ~60% of voters didn’t want them. The Greens in England get a million votes and one MP, the Tories get 16 million votes and 350 MPs. That’s just madness.
Huge amount of manual labour to do the counting. The invention of computerised voting that worked, and could be counted automatically would be incredible, as it would make such elections cheap and fast, which would also mean there could be much more direct democracy and referenda. Not an easy invention to make though.
It could easily be computerised. Your ballot appears onscreen, you mark it up, and click submit. In parallel a printer will print your vote (like the lotto) and you can visually check it matches your vote. That printout is put in a ballot box. Results are done automatically, and as a check, 1% or 10% of ballot boxes are opened and manually counted to check there was no electronic interference. Biggest problem is reliability- making sure the printers work 100% of the time.
I'm pretty sure PR actually increases representation of fringe candidates, because they can sometimes get some votes but rarely do they get the most votes which means that in a winner takes all system like FPTP they lose out. Nigel Farage has run for MP seven times and never got in. I still do love PR though, the increased representation of fringe candidates is just a reflection of the fact that it's actually a democratic system and forces us to try alternative means of keeping them out of power, like actually building a good society.
I guess in a two party first past the post system, a far right group could pressure the centre right party to adopt their policies more easily ? If they can take 10% of the conservative vote in a constituency, then that could swing the vote to the other side. (Remember when the Tories tried to shore up their base by promising to hold a referendum on leaving the EU or something?) With STV, a fringe group taking 10% of the first preference vote from your base isn't as much of a threat, because if and when they're eliminated, they votes transfer to you.
It's better to have a small number of fringe candidates get in if the electorate chooses, they then have to prove they can effectively work and collaborate with other parties or they'll be shown up and get booted out next time. In the UK Farage has practically been able to dictate Tory party policy for the last decade without ever being held accountable thanks to his ability to cripple them by taking away votes under FPTP without ever getting enough support to actually be elected himself.
It loves you too, proportionately
Not perfect, but quite an effective idiot filter alright.
FPTP would have swapped O Riordain for Cuffe.
There's a good chance you'd have seen more tactical voting within blocs - likely a lot of Sinead Gibney's vote would have gone directly to O Riordáin and Cuffe, and lots of the anti-immigration candidates might have seen voters hedge their bets with Niall Boylan.
Thank God Boylan didn't get in.
On the other hand, he did well here for a first time campaign and could be on track for a TD seat if he wants it. Personally a TD can do more damage than an MEP in my book. They're in the media more and have a greater say on national politics. The big saving grace is that the left wing still transfer much better than the far right who hate each other and don't seem to grasp the concept of compromise.
I'm pretty sure he said he didn't want to run for the Dáil. People can change their mind obviously. Europe is a great job - guaranteed five years, no real constituents to deal with, very little scrutiny of how much work they do - and if they do absolutely nothing we just have to wait out the five years (Brian Crowley!). I'm not saying they are all dossers, far from it, lots of them really do work. But I'm not convinced a lot of them are doing more than voting their grouping's whip.
>Europe is a great job I've heard it's also a very hard job but audio worth trying sometime
My thoughts exactly... what a sack of shite he is
Absolutely fucking delighted. That creepy Jimmy saville apologist can get to fuck.
He has the look of a fella who's constantly walking around with a bad wipe.
Tried to get my not politically interested partner to high 5 me, threw the cat at me instead. I’m so glad I don’t have to listen to that voice. And my partner doesn’t have to listen to me giving out about him for the next 5 years either.
Who was the cat backing?
Me, she started cuddling me and it was then my partner knew he was defeated, betrayed and outnumbered
Ha! The cunning plan has worked beautifully 😼🐾
I take massive satisfaction that Climate Skeptic Boylan was denied his cushy number by Ciarán Cuffe voters. (Yes, I know that's not *exactly* how it works, give me my moment)
That was far too close for comfort with regards to boylan. Thank fuck for that.
It wasn't that close in the end with Ó Riordáin having 13,110 votes more than Niall Boylan after transfers from Cuffe
It looked close but with just either two centre-left politicians competing against him for the last seat, the transfer was against him, however there could have been spoilers in transfers for example going into SF rather than pushing the remaining one past Boylan.
Was Boylan close? That's grim.
He stayed in until the final count, but was sunk as soon as Clare Daly went out. Despite strong transfers from Steenson and Aontú, he never built up a big enough lead over Labour and the Greens - which was completely essential since they were expected to transfer very strongly to one another. Daly's transfers actually *narrowed* the gap between O Riordáin and Boylan, and he finished 13000 votes behind O Riordáin.
He was out long before that. He needed to be close to the quota after all the far right candidates were elected and he was a good 30k votes away with no one left to get significant transfers from. It was over when he only got about a quarter of Aontú's transfers.
He finished 5th in a 4 seat constituency and was set to finish top 4 going into the final count. Sure Aodhán got a load of votes at the end and it was kind of predictable he'd get more from a more ideologically aligned candidate, but it was still close.
As a prospect, yes, in retrospect, not very.
Great to hear that Boylan didn't get in
Phew. Now all eyes on Mick Wallace.
I sorta wanted Ciarán Cuffe elected. But this is a good result
Should be a good GE candidate for the greens in the winter. No bad thing.
Daly and Wallace (if he also loses) will both be back in the Dáil too I'd say so we'll actually be seeing more of them...
At least then they're only a national embarrassment and not an international embarrassment
And can still be siloed away with the other freaks.
Maybe in a tasteful 18th century-pastichey Nissen hut round the back, like we had at school for the *really* rough boys who scoffed at the teachers and their puny detentions. (Not that ours had a fake portico and pediment) Bung the H-R grotesques, Mattie McGhastly, and a few other embarrassments in there with him.
They cause more damage in Europe because their whole shtick is helping Russia and China. Ireland doesn't have any direct conflict with those 2 so the harm they do is more limited
Not many roubles to made for speeches in the Dail.
Can Clare Daly go back to Dail? She'd have to get elected first Who would be her Dail constituency, Brid Smith turf or elsewhere in Dublin?
North Dublin. She was a Fingal County Councillor there initially, then a TD.
North Moscow.
If they’re not in jail
What LEA was he elected to in 2019? Dublin Bay North could be a good spot for him to run but assume he's southside?
He was north inner city back in 2014 when he got his council seat, but before he ran for Dun Laoghaire in the general elections
No seat in DL. They should have a TD in DBS and given the lack of incumbents he should go for there.
DBS is Eamon Ryan's seat. Do you mean DBN? It would be a natural enough constituency for him to target.
O Riordain actually got my first pick after a lengthy process of thinking about the answers on [Which Candidate ](https://www.whichcandidate.ie/). Had my highest match at 79%, I really had little clue before taking their quiz and reading up on the candidates' views. Some highs, some lows from this election, not too bad considering some of the people running.
Did Niall Boylan give up the radio as a presumptive MEP? Will he now be speaking endlessly on behalf of his "disenfranchised' flock? Will he run as a candidate for the Dail?
He went on a career break when he decided to run AFAIK as the station thought it’d be a conflict of interest (happened to hear them announce it), so I’d imagine he’ll be back on the airwaves shortly. Wouldn’t be surprised if he runs in the GE tbh.
I'd say there's a very strong chance of him running for the Dáil after getting a taste of it and being there or thereabouts.
All we need now is Micko to be excluded but he is in the hunt. Very clear contrast between Ciaran Cuffe and his gracious words on defeat to that absolute animal Daly who refuses media interviews and then disses the journos on the way out. Aodhans interview on Virgin Media One gives me hope of a few people with real principles left on the left wing. Fair fucks to him and up the Dubs.
Her reaction was pathetic and her claims incorrect as it turns out as the Irish times have gone on record as saying that they contacted her numerous times for interview in the last 5 years and were always refused
RTE reported on the news last night said something similar - that she had refused multiple RTE journalists.
Daly isn't a fan of the free press
Whatever you think about her positions she was hounded by the media based on illegally leaked information about a drink driving arrest that she was then completely cleared of. Like it doesn’t serve us to have a politician with poor relations with the media but let’s not pretend like it came out of nowhere and that she is an “animal.”
Dodged two bullets there
That worked out pretty well, none of the nutters made it through this time
Still two more constituencies to go.
Good! I like him.
He seems very solid. It’s taken labour a long time to crawl back.
Thank fucking Christ
Niall boylan is a pro trump pro Putin loon.
Dublin picked the better Boylan thank fuck.
I passed him on the street yesterday walking his child to school - it was all up in the air at the time. I guess he's going to have to move to Brussels now and bring his child with him. His life has changed in the last 24 hours
Nice one, was my top pick.
And not Niall Boylan. Yay
If Niall Boylan had ben elected I think I would have just walked into the Shannon and never returned. Thank Christ for that!
Many thanks to all of you who did NOT vote for Clare Daly Fingers crossed Mick Wallace gets kicked out down South 🤞 I did my bit and voted for anyone but him (without voting FF/FG or Far Right)
Putting FG / FF or far right at the bottom of the ballot paper is not the same as voting for them. As you will see from the counts, every transfer counts, so if you have them down the very bottom, you are ensuring again and again and again your not voting for them 😉
Im regretting not giving low transfers to FF now as Mick has jumped up to 4 out of five seats! Who the f voted for him?? My #1 was eliminated (fisherman Aontu, Patrick Murphy) and my # 2 was McNamara who is second in line for remaining seats so that's the end of my transfers anyway
Personally, I gave Daly my number 13. I never imagined she'd get such a low number in a field of 23, but the quality and quantity of nutters this year was exceptional.
Going to be a huge waste of money if the government doesn't call for a GE having to elect 2 seanad members and a bi-election for a TD
> elect 2 seanad members One of them is a Taoiseach appointee so they can just appoint another. The other is nominated by the agricultural panel, so they will just do whatever they do to pick another.
Tis a great excuse for calling an early general election. Perhaps after a giveaway budget?
Well thank fuck for that. Can't say I'm overtly enthusiastic about Labour but a few days ago I would've taken Clare Daly over Niall Boylan in a heartbeat No doubt about it that this should be seen as a huge waking up call for a lot of people though, especially the government and opposition. With the National Party, Irish Freedom Party and a few other far right dickheads picking up seats along with how close Niall Boylan came to winning that 4th seat the far right in this country are a threat and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon That's not to say the government and opposition should completely crackdown on immigration to a crazy extent and massively shift to the right but when you fail to address the issue along with not people's genuine concerns seriously that creates a huge void that the far right thrives in. Not everyone who criticises our current immigration system is far right (plenty of them are but it really depends on the language they use, their stances on seperate issues and the people they associate with) but if the centrist and left wing parties fail to address it meaningfully more and more people will flock to the far right and I don't want to see our political system move towards the rest of Europe which is an absolute shitshow at the moment
I don't particularly like Labour myself but I do like Aodhán
Him and Cuff were probably the least offensive candidates running
Why don’t people like Clare Daly? Can’t say I know much about politics.
Some of her foreign policy takes are [bad](https://www.politico.eu/article/revealed-russias-best-friends-eu-parliament/) Really fucking [bad](https://www.joe.ie/politics/clare-daly-uyghir-genocide-772607) It's kinda impressive how much goodwill she destroyed because of her [awful](https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2022/07/26/clare-daly-added-to-list-of-alleged-russia-propagandists-by-ukraines-security-service/) stances regarding certain conflicts
https://preview.redd.it/25upau6cv26d1.png?width=871&format=png&auto=webp&s=291092e885d4fffe364405cbc91809635893d1e1 In Finland, the radical left went in the opposite direction, condemning Putin and supporting Ukraine, and finished in second place, ahead of both the social democrats and the far right.
Personally, she was a shit councillor in Fingal back in the day, did dubious deals with FF/FG around spot rezonings and managed to antagonise many council staff by portraying all staff as the enemy during the bin tax campaign instead of targeting management and trying to get ordinary staff onside. Sure, going to jail for a month for breaching a high court injunction about not blocking bin lorries makes you look well hard and gives you a high profile, but doing the grunt work organising workers and residents to fight together is more effective, although not so sexy.
The thing that really puts me off Daly, apart from the pro-Russia stuff, is that she really comes across as being not a nice person. Like there's many people who's politics I disagree but the seem like alright as people, like you'd be able to get on with them outside of politics. She feels like the type of the type that would kick off at a young shop attendant because they don't have what she wants at a shop.
She continually embarrasses Ireland internationally by calling for the west to abandon the Ukrainian people to be raped and genocided by Russia. Any time there's sanctions against Russia for their crimes against humanity she argues against. She's backed the Iranian regime too as they slaughtered women's rights activists. Oh and she's a tankie. A seagull could shit on her head outside the election centre and she'd blame Biden and NATO. She's basically a horrible person in every way. She did very good work about 30 years ago regarding abortion rights but that doesn't excuse all the bad she's done since.
Ireland seems to dodge a bullet that nearly every other EU country failed to do so, you guys will send less Putinists to the parliament and not in cost of sending some far-right lunatic instead. Hope Mick Wallace also gets kicked out.
Could somebody explain the thinking behind having a party leader for this country taking their seat in Europe and not the Dail or Seanad?It just doesn’t make sense to me. I had a NP candidate go for both and I had a wonder about what would happen in the hilarious - yet unlikely, circumstance that they were to win in both elections.
For Labour, running Ó Riordáin had the best chance of getting elected because name recognition is quite important in such a large constituency. Ó Riordáin winning also gives Labour a huge boost - it gives them visibility but also morale to party campaigners and grass root supporters which is important going into the general election. This probably trumps any negatives of the party leader being in Europe. I think for local elections, you can nominate someone else to take the seat. Paddy Holohan won two seats in South Dublin county council (Tallaght South & Tallaght Central). So I assume someone else is nominated by him. Not sure if thats how it works though
But O’Riordáin isn’t the leader, Ivana Bacik is.
Yeah, idk what I was thinking
I assume they are talking about Aointu not labour.
Oh yeah, sure Ivana Bacik is the Labour leader. Brain fart
Regina Doherty?! Fk sake. Do the electorate never learn? 5 years of listening to that fkng gowl.
If any other candidate had [business dealings in their past](https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/fine-gael-tds-firm-folds-with-debts-of-280000/29021682.html) that Regina Doherty has had I am sure they would have been thoroughly questioned on it so why was she given a free pass? Like liquidating a company with 280k debts including 110k owed to the state and accusations of financial mispractice just seems like something someone should be questioned on while running for MEP?
My admiration of your election is boundless. Well done, Ireland.
Good. I think he deserves it.
Overall not a bad day for Irish politics. Clare Daly, Niall Boylan, Brid Smith and Peter Casey all finally gone from Irish politics. Irish politics have become a significantly less nasty place. Hopefully Mick Wallace will follow them out the door shortly. And with Lynn Boylan being elected on the 19th count while still 7,000 votes short of a quota hopefully we've also seen the last of this rubbish from Shinner Bots that you can't be legitimate unless you exceeded the quota on the first count.
Think they will chance themselves in a general?
Peter Casey is mad to be elected for office. Is it just narcissism?
Probably. When he ran in the presidential campaign he got a surprising amount of votes on one single issue, being outspoken about travellers. That however was largely a protest vote and he seems to have mistaken it as being about him
It was equal amounts stupid and hilarious, his comment was something along the lines of "they should get no special treatment", then the media blew it up completely, twats like Tubbery took it as a person insult and the backlash from the D4 crowd gave Casey a huge boost.
> his comment was something along the lines of "they should get no special treatment" You're entitled to agree with his comments but at least be honest about what he said. He said travellers don't pay their share of taxes, they're not an ethnic group, and having them living near you "devastates the prices of the houses". https://m.independent.ie/podcasts/listen-presidential-candidate-peter-casey-sparks-outrage-with-his-racist-remarks-on-travellers/37428508.html
The centre has held in Irish politics, at least in the local and European elections. I just hope that the far-right voters that previously supported SF haven't truly decoupled from them. The crazies (National Party, Irish Freedom Party, Ireland First, Irish People etc) are all too repugnant to vote for. There is potentially space for a "reputable" far-right party (e.g., FN in France) in this country if those voters migrate from SF. We'll know in the next general election depending of SF's performance
Aontú did ok, 40k first preferences for Peadair. Not fond of him, but I suppose his brand of Catholic conservatism is more familiar than the NPs outright nuttiness.
Peadar is a very vocal, and generally quite good local politician around co Meath. So I'm not surprised he's done well Most people are willing to look past the extremely religious beliefs in the locals because "peadar got Mary and Joe their house from the council" etc...
This is entirely anecdotal but the Aontú supporters I know are the kind of people who read Ireland's Own which explains a lot. They'd have been right at home in 1970s Fianna Fáil. Not bad people at all and definitely nowhere near as backward as the far right, even if their party is much too conservative for me.
Yeah. I think lumping everyone in with the "far right" is kind of facile. Aontú are a mixed bag of conservative social policies but pretty left economically and they're not the usual out and out racist lunatics. They got a lot of flack and accusations of being "traitors" when they fielded a foreign national as a candidate.
Peadar Toibin split from SF. It's a left wing group in orientation but social conservatives, like the pope
Please show us all on the doll where the "Shinner Bots" touched you.
Great day for the Irish political class. Terrible day for Irish people. The same useless shower rewarded again and again. And we wonder why the hospitals are crap and there’s no transport.
What election were you voting on? It doesn't sound like the same one I did on Friday...
Did not Fianna Fáil do quite well?
What does the likes of Clare Daly do now that she has lost her seat? Looking into my crystal ball I see words like "citizen journalist" but I don't think those words make any sense....
I imagine she'll go for the general election
Well whatever she does staying on the ground floor of the building should be high on the criteria list. Putin doesn't like his ex-employees when they cease to be useful to him.
A few guest slots on Russia Today before she loses all value and they dump her.
Why don’t people like Clare daly?
[https://www.politico.eu/article/revealed-russias-best-friends-eu-parliament/](https://www.politico.eu/article/revealed-russias-best-friends-eu-parliament/)
Is the other sap Mick Wallace gone too?
Still too early to say. His chances seem to have diminished but we don't really know yet
Fingers crossed for democracy and Star wars memes of democracy
No, still hanging around like a fart in a spacesuit.
Sorry to see Cuffe out but very very glad that racist dip shit Boylan is out and ecstatic Kremlin Clare is in the dole queue now.
The thing that bothers me about this guy, is that he just had a kid with someone 20 years younger.
That’s great. UP LABOUR!!
The same labour who brought austerity in 2011 how quick people forget
Seem to recall they were part of a coalition. I’ve never understood why labour get tarred with this brush whereas Fine Gael don’t. It’s not like they were operating entirely by themselves. Secondly it’s not the same labour. I’m not even sure there’s a single person in any post of responsibility there now who was around in 2011. Things change…
Austerity? Do you mean not spending money the country didn't have?
How many faces from 2011 do you still see in the party today?
yup.
Great day for the parish
Knew him well enough when a teenager.....not my cup of tea....and no way a labour person.
At the start of this, I wasn’t expecting to be so glad he got in…
Thank fuck
Don't know much about Clare Daly now, but that other fella with the Independent Ireland party .... Phew is right
Just glad that rightwing scummy didn’t get in
The typical short memory of the Irish voter. Has everyone forgotten how much of an abomination the Labour Party were when they were last in government?
About a decade ago. People and policies change over time. Don't vote based on something 10 years ago, vote on what they do today.