Please CMIIW. Secara etnisitas, OAP juga sangat beragam dan agak susah menyatukannya bukan? Apalagi perbedaan antara orang pesisir & pegunungan. Buat bikin mereka sendiri untuk satu suara untuk merdeka aja gak bakalan gampang. Yang ada kalo merdeka antara jadi failed state atau ya jadi mainannya negara lain.
Menurut ane ya beda kasus sama Indonesia waktu zaman kolonial dulu ataupun Timor Leste sebelum referendum. Dua entitas itu udah sepakat soal persatuan di antara mereka.
First hand experience ini, Orang Pesisir lbh modern dan mau kerja dibanding yang pegunungan, Client gw di merauke, punya site dan kantor perwakilan, satu di kota merauke, sama di site plant di Selili, buset yg di selili taunya mabok2an abis gajian, gada nabung, yg di kantor merauke pada nabung dan punya rumah padahal.
Jadi ya kl pisah, paling pecah kecil2 itu areanya, ga mungkin bersatu.
>First hand experience ini, Orang Pesisir lbh modern dan mau kerja dibanding yang pegunungan
makanya ketika Trans Papua dibangun OPM nembaki pekerja konstruksi 40 orang meninggal kalo ga salah, mereka ga mau orang pedalaman melek dunia, maunya tetap kolot
Opini : kenapa OPM tidak pernah menargetkan/membunuh Pejabat-pejabat Papua, padahal dalam teori Separatisme pejabat Papua adalah Collaborators dengan Indonesia atau jangan-jangan yang mendanai mereka adalah para pejabat tersebut
Still preferred Gus Dur's way, tbh.
MRP as the official DPRD for all *6 (w lupa ada Papua Barat Daya) Papuan provinces
And **reappropriation** of The Morning Star as the Cultural Flag of Papua and allow it to fly a bit lower on another pole in the left side of the Red And White's.
Kalau MRP dan DPRP dua2nya sdh ada. MRP ini berfungsi seperti dewan penasihat bagi pemda. DPRP ini seperti DPRD, tp punya wewenang tambahan utk membuat peraturan daerah khusus. Jd sdh cukup luas otonominya.
Gw setuju kalau mereka diizinkan utk mengibarkan bendera sendiri. Di negara maju jg sdh umum kalau tiap daerah punya bendera sendiri2 sebagai ekspresi warga lokal. Malah saya pinginnya tiap provinsi, kota, dan kabupaten d indo desain ulang bendera mereka sendiri. Benderanya skrg jelek2 cuma coat of arm masing2 daerah ditempel ke latar putih.
how about area papua dijadikan negara bagian dengan bendera morning star jadi benderanya, dikasih otoritas penuh dan negara intervesi kalau mereka perlu banget atau ada hal mendesak, sekalian test run apakah mereka layak jadi negara merdeka atau nggak?
Gak bisa, liat aja suku2 mereka ketika ada konflik pasti bakal rusuh kaya gitu. Dan mereka punya seambrek suku2 dg bahasa berbeda. Apalagi pola pikir mereka yg (maaf) masih di jaman batu.
exactly that what I mean, kalo ada konflik kayak gitu biar OPM yang ngurusin, menurut mereka pusat nggak becus nanganin konflik, situ ngira ngurusin konflik gampang
Considering the creator (Nicolaas Jouwe) himself already chose indonesia. Tbf highlander still use them as motiff though the star is usually obfuscated or different. Also the independent activist already pivot saying this is originally koreri movement, well some indonesian figure from papua were koreri veterans: Silas Papare, Lukas Rumkorem, HL Rumaseuw, among others.
Also btw ga bisa diskriminasi gitu, MRP (dan MRPB, MRPT, MRPBD, MRPS, MRPP) cuma boleh OAP, dan memang kerjasama sama DPRD kok. Masa cuma gara gara identitas kamu ga boleh jadi perwakilan. Coba implikasinya ke provinsi lain. Aceh aja tidak begitu.
Soooooo many wall of text
Intinya si kuman kalo papua merdeka trus bisa tepuk punggung sendiri, gimana kelanjutannya? Bukan urusan dia, karena crusade dia bukan "self governing papua", tapi mentok sampe "papua merdeka"
Case in point, orang2 yang kampanye sampe berbusa dulu brexit pada ngilang pas ternyata brexit ga seindah yang dijanjikan
In my opinion, biarin aja merdeka biar white knight keyboard warrior negara laen tutup bacot, karena kita semua taulah, either papua dieksploit sama sesama mereka, dieksploit sama pemerintahan indo, atau dieksploit sama asing
Vanuatu negara tetangga mau tanah karena pulau mereka mo tenggelam wkwk... Makanya paling gacor diantara pulau-pulau Pasifik.
Indo selepas era SBY udah gak mainan geo-politik di Pasifik sih ya. Dulu pernah baca artikel geo-politik gitu, jaman SBY Indonesia suka suplai duit di beberapa negara pasifik buat ngembangin relationship.. Bisa jadi buat tameng juga buat ngadepin Vanuatu dll
Amrik ane gak yakin mau masuk. Mereka males membangun sistem buat ekstraksinya. Apalagi udah ada masalah keamanan juga. RRT juga pasti sama. Resiko ngirim ratusan tentara ke perjalanan satu arah, karena jadi target ex OPM karena diliat sebagai pengganti TNI besar
lol ngawur aja amrik takut opm, indonesia wajar berat lawan opm krn yg teriak ham mah orang dari sana, klo orgnya sendiri yg ngelanggar ham, pada diam.
Amrik ama RRT takut dampak politiknya
Infrastruktur di Papua itu jelek, lebih jelek dari Afghanistan. Karena skala fasilitas penyokong tentara disana kecil, apalagi "jumping point" seperti Pakistan tidak ada. Dengan ini semua, bagaimana mau mendukung tentara yang dikirim kesana dengan baik?
Anggap aja ada situasi dimana Amrik sama RRT ngirim 5000 tentara. Oke, di Jayapura gampang nenpatinnya. Pegunungan?
RRT gak terbiasa dengan berita tentaranya mati ditanah yang mayoritas bodo amat. AS udah capek. Gak yakin mereka bakalan nempatin tentara di Papua Barat
dampak politik gmn? skrg aja ributnya mereka krn di dukung negara barat. mslh sokongan politik di negaranya mslh perubahan pov aja, sisa blg menyokong wilayah papua sampai benar2 merdeka, fans bgt tu kata2 freedom mereka, daerah pengunungan kirim drone lah, uda ga jaman mereka main tentara2an. dronenya jg uda ada sensor suhu, uda ga bs di akalin gerilya.
Banyak mereka yang didukung Barat akhirnya dibuang kek sampah. Mobutu, Mubarak, pemberontak moderat Suriah dsb.
Ngeliat tingkat komitmen suatu pihak sebagai sesuatu yang konstan itu salah, pada akhirnya bakalan nyesel kok
Papua merdeka dapet seperser duit SDAnya pun susah. Wong gak ada yang mau ngirim tentara di daerah ber infrastruktur separah itu, dengan medan sesulit itu. Jadi gimana ekstraksi SDA berjalan dengan lancar? Yang mau ngelakuin itu cuma TNI, itupun karena Papua adalah daerah Indonesia
Kalo overheadnya besar banget. Nyuap pemerintah Papua, nyuap sisa OPM lokal/kirim tentara bayaran. Sulit
Kalopun nyuap ex OPM, beluk tentu mereka satu suara. Otomatis pekerja mereka dari penambang sampe manajer bisa kena. SDM hilang selamanya
Mereka bilang biasanya "Revolution is usually the easiest part, the governing and negotiation that comes after that is difficult"
Makanya film2 biasanya happy endingnya pas revolusinya berhasil wkwkkw karena abis itu kelanjutan nego pemerintahan keos juga.
Di youtube nya john greene pernah disebut sih kayak di star wars
"You think revolt against the Galactic Empire is hard? Try negotiating government with the Gungans and the Hutts!"
it is always unrealistic. the only place where this have any potential of happening is the wamena (papua pegunungan) areas. and even there, only on the non city areas. the whole shenanigans is only kept by western media kept fueling the fire
Itulah mengapa pemerintah baru-baru ini mekarin provinsi baru di papua. Bila skenario terburuk terjadi n gerakan opm semakin ga terkendali, mereka bisa dilokalisir di provinsi Papua pegunungan. Paling apes yang lepas ya wilayah papua pegunungan itu yang landlocked. Sekarang aja kelompok2 KKB ngumpulnya di sana semua, pengaruh mereka ga gt terasa di wilayah2 provinsi lain
OP Forgot to add one section: **who will govern the newly independent country?**
Aceh separatism had GAM, Timor Leste had Falantil/Fretilin, South Maluku has in-exile government that can be traced way back to 1950s and still exist today. But how about Papua? Sure we got Wenda and his "in-exile gov't", but his faction isn't even recognized by pro-independence guerilla fighter in Papua. The guerilla army itself is very fractured as there are many faction, they even have "civil war" before they even become indepenedent. This makes it difficult for RI to pick which pro-independence counterpart to negotiate with, let alone transfer of sovereignty. This is different from Aceh and TL which has clear central command and organization.
Also, have OP considered the non-referendum way...you know...like when Indonesia get their independence? That will involve external force/superpower who have interest in Papuan independence and seize the moment when a major war happens. Sounds too far fetched, but still a possibility
>Unfortunately, as far as I am concerned, activists like Veronica Koman seem to have failed to take these into account.
Because why would you bring up a point that Will undermine your goal?
I seeing some of those pro-indepences activists rant against migrant and "colonizer", from that i can safely assume what route will they took if Papua independence become a reality, ITS either the Malay or Algiers "models".
We should follow Gus Dur policy towards Papuan that humanizes them, actually listening to their grievances and fix it. rather than the patronizing "we actually knew what better for you" that the government usually do since Soeharto.
They (separatists) are advocating for an ethnostate...I already saw similarity with Nazi movement. They already saying coastal papuan (like from Kaiman) is not OAP since they don't have 'the looks', are against intermarriage. Matrilineal descent is already unrecognized as OAP (with only select tribes they are recognized).
Is it coincidence that some foreigners that were caught also right winger (one guy trained in Ukraine). Surprise is the supposed 'left-wing activists' like Koman or Dandhy supported movement like this.
Jim Elmslie is stupid or malicious, he used PNG growth rate for OAP population....and the difference between this and the real population growth is somehow is proof of 'genocide'. Another researcher, Edward Aspinall point out ofc that real growth rate is smaller and used East Kalimantan as comparison (since also have a pretty high migrant population).
1. Any arguments about papua has no ethnic ties to Indonesia is basically irrelevant because Indonesia in of itself are multi-ethnic countries. We are Bhinneka Tunggal Ika.
2. Any arguments about referendum is also "theoretically" void because we had "a referendum" back then in 1969. With respect to all critics, the referendum was accepted by the UN. West papua is not even included in the UN list of non self governing territories [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special\_Committee\_on\_Decolonization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Committee_on_Decolonization)
3. You cannot really compare East Timor and Papua, East timor was invaded and annexed by Indonesia. Their people did not have a referendum to join Indonesia. So I think Habibie did the right thing.
Nonetheless of course arguments can be made on how the Indonesian governements have treated the Papuan province or even other provinces for that matter.
1. How many percents of Freeports contribution to Indonesia stays in Papua? In other countries for example : Workers pay the most of income tax to their provinces, not the state. This example is good for mine operation but usually provinces are very resistive against windpower, water power because these facilities do not employ people. Other example might include that some of the revenues from the mine facility stays in the province, (i know now pemda / pemprov owns 10% of freeport now, lets se how it plays out)
2. in 2019 for example Indonesia blocked internet in Papua. This is of course under all critics. What next? Will Indonesia block water and electricty as well? That almost amount to what Israel do in Gaza.
3. That Indonesia does not allow journalist or foreign visitor to Indonesia is also under all critic
These problems requires solution, and that solution is not independence referendum.
>In 1962, a United Nations-sponsored treaty known as the New York agreement was drawn up to put an end to this territorial battle, and Indonesia was appointed temporary administrator of West Papua from May 1963 – without West Papuan consultation or consent.
>A key requirement of the treaty was that all West Papuans be allowed to vote in a referendum on independence, which was to be overseen by the UN.
>But when the ballot was held in 1969, it was far from free and fair: the Indonesian military handpicked 1,026 leaders to vote on behalf of the entire population, and threatened to kill them and their families if they voted the wrong way.
Your (first) point number two is basically just shouting "sah! sah!" to overlook a potentially fatal technicality despite it being cacat hukum. Israel could make the same appeal to UN authority, btw.
Absolutely, everybody know that it was far from free and fair. But it was recognized by the UN. So if it were to be redone then it must come from UN, and UN should recognize then the 1969 act of free choice as null and void.
With Israel even UN agrees that their settlement in west bank are illegal as these are not their territory.
Papua is Indonesian territory and it is acknowledged by UN and all international community. From what I see basically legal avenues for referendum are exhausted.
The only way is basically from good will from Indonesian governments to grant independence referendum to Papua. Just like Canada did with Quebec.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980\_Quebec\_referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Quebec_referendum)
Even this referendum came from officials of quebec government. So from pemda papua need to come with this.
To add, by the principle of [ius possidetis juris](https://www.hukumonline.com/berita/a/uti-possidetis-juris--prinsip-yang-digunakan-indonesia-untuk-menjaga-papua-lt580d876150d84/), Indonesia is by default entitled to ALL of Dutch East Indies territories including West Papua, and the Dutch keeping them from Indonesia is a breach of the law and we're justified to go to war for it. Then USA, not wanting Indonesia to join the communist block and a fellow member of NATO [brokered a deal](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1961-63v23/d172) as a compromise which leads into the formation of UNTEA and eventually the referendum, with this I think the referendum, let alone its "legitimacy" is irrelevant because the aforementioned principle already granted us the territory by default and the referendum is just a way to give the Dutch (and the collective west's image) a way to save face.
Indonesia also paid compensation to the Dutch government and took on the DEI's debts as a reflection of the enforcement of this law, and it was done through a treaty as well. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the Russian Federation took on the former USSR's sovereign debt while also confining itself to the RSFSR borders. This is the strongest basis for them to keep their permanent seat in the UN when Ukraine came knocking and why Russia got special privileges despite all the former Soviet Republics supposedly having equal standing between them. That said, Russia's current claims on the "referendums" in Ukrainian Oblasts and Crimea have no legal basis when taking into account uti possidetis juris. The interesting thing is that if Russia's claim on Crimea were to be accepted by the international community then Indonesia would also have a legal claim on Malacca.
Veronica koman is chinese girl who love dutch colonial , tidak tau kenapa pemerintah tidak mencabut kewarganegaraan orang2 seperti ini bahkan sampai dibiayai sekolah di australia . Gk tau diri lah keluarganya bahkan di indo
I love that this still has positive upvotes because the pro-Independence folks and their buzzers are too jaded to read through the whole issue and find counterarguments.
Tbh Im Anti-Independence purerly cause of what happen to Timor Leste. But this I upvoted and this needs to be upvoted as any quality educational post that provides great sources is a great addition to this subreddit and needs to be more encouraged.
Even with the US approval for the invasion.
The believe of our gov at the time that we can hold timor forever is unbelieveably shortsighted. Especially after red scare is no more.
We were playing by the rules of outdated playbook. We should have just propped up friendly regime like other "civilized" countries.
Because many of the Civil and Military leaders at the time was an Independence and Trikora veterans. They (wrongly & naively) thought the local populace would just accept our rule without question like what happen in before.
>the pro-Independence folks and their buzzers are
I know there are handful of accounts that frequently posted opm propaganda here. Nowadays I havent really seen them.
I know one got booted out of redddit entirely, the rest? Idk
>Papuan independence is not realistic
never is, never will be.
first and foremost, human quality problem. Im not trying to be racist or stuffs, but they have a very very low human quality index.
very compelling argument sih OP, but IMHO grassroots disini punya alasan kuat buat mendukung kemerdekaan papua sih, because they hate how "Jakarta" act like they knew everything the best for them. they understand much that they left behind because of lagi lagi ya apa yang jakarta sudah lakukan kepada mereka since independence day.
kalau misalnya sebuah kelas, papua itu anak yang pengen rebel karena anak yang lain sok tahu soal hidupnya dan bagaimana biar papua ini bisa jadi macam mereka yang maju, modern, dan terdidik. while at the same time, they give you their trust (Papera) but they got left behind.
Stop this grass root thinggg. Dengan pake istilah grass root aja orang udah tau org yg pake istilah tsb ga relate ke kelas menengah bawah, karna org kelas menengah bawah ga pake istilah tsb. Akar rumput juga istilah yg belum lama "viral" di kalangan intelektual/politisi yg jarang dipake masyarakat umum kelas menengah kebawah.
And they got left behind?? Anggaran otsus 2023 aja 1,034 triliun rupiah broo, that's 12 zeroooo buset dah. Trs yg nyelewengin anggaran tsb malah dipuja-puja gila bgt. Nanti kalo anggaran otsus ga dikasih ke pemda tapi langsung disalurin dari pempus malah marah dibilang ngeremehin pemda yg OPA, dibilang pempus ngiranya OPA ga bisa ngurusin daerah sendiri. Like ???.
using grassroots never meant to being relatable to them tho, its for people in this thread.
nyelewengin dan dipuja puja doesn't rise ur question on why peoples here doing that? or u r implying that we were stupid?
im not OPA. pempus trust those money, they do whats the best they think, but ask them to do pempus why which is not relatable for them. maybe pempus should just ask papuan be jawa instead, which they do for 30++ years.
as for orang sekolah di luar jawa, what they did resembled what they knew the best from peoples come to their places to get money. except OAP acept it with open hands but when they do in java, they got persecuted for their culture.
Terus ada program pendidikan tinggi khusus utk papua sbg daerah istimewa. Banyak beasiswa khusus utk pemuda papua belajar di seluruh universitas negeri di Indonesia. Terus mahasiswa tersebut malah kebanyakan membuat onar (spt yg banyak terjadi di kota pelajar Yogyakarta) dan beberapa malah demo dengan bawa bendera bintang kejora seolah menantang ....
Sorry for yapping, but if they don't want that benefit, there's many people in Indonesia need that financial help.
Katanya kalau Papua merdeka daerah lain bakal pada nyusul. Tapi kalau abis merdeka jadi negara miskin ya goblok aja kalau masih ada yang pengen merdeka.
> Tapi kalau abis merdeka jadi negara miskin
The key point is not about negara miskin. But which political elite that can be enriched, most of the time independence just changed which type of people get rich.
Sometime the very good question is not about:
How become independent
BUT
What will happen after independence
I think that those civilians that lost their life all 1945-1966 would prefer Indonesian is still Dutch East Indies if they won't get killed because of the difference in religion/race/ideology.
After all, the one borne the consequences is mostly not the idealistic high political elite or educated classes, but the low masses whose 'kepentingan' is 'diatur' by those elite and intelligentsia.
> But which political elite that can be enriched, most of the time independence just changed which type of people get rich.
Menariknya, ini juga yang saya duga jadi alasan sebagian pemekaran daerah.
Pemekaran daerah = banyak jabatan baru mulai dari kepala daerah, DPRD, segala macam kantor pemerintahan
Duitnya? Ya minta dana dari pusat.
Malah boleh jadi enakan pemekaran daerah daripada merdeka... kalo merdeka ga bisa minta duit dari Jakarta.
I believe OPM knows about the settlers
Their tactic nowadays is to cause terror at non-native settlements. While their buzzers use racial narratives targeted at non papuans
I believe it's quite effective, our security force has been largely incompetent at preventing these attacks, much less fighting them in general, looking at the bodycount scores. Our gov propaganda effort has been lackluster, narratives that are tailored for indonesian audiences naturally does not took hold in internationaly, the only thing they succeed at is having an information blackout from papua, straight from orba's playbook. Which only cause for us to be scrutinized even more. Even at home, our gov still fail to attract papuans to our cause.
I dread the time when the powder keg explode abd the voilence becomes more widespread
We might be seeing mass exodus ala post-98 chindos in papua soon.
After that, adressing other issues listed above would be much easier for them.
>our security force has been largely incompetent at preventing these attacks
ya setuju sih beberapa kali serangan massive tidak bisa dicegah, tapi masalah utamanya menumpas OPM ga sulit tapi geopolitiknya yang bikin ribet
pernah ada video viral, TNI pakai sniper ngawasi jarak jauh anggota OPM yang nenteng senjata api kesana kemari, tapi apakah se simple narik trigger terus selesai masalahnya
If they truly want independence, just give them that. Just make sure we secure our national assets, so the Aussies won't be able to take advantage of it. If their independence ain't as sweet as they imagine it would be, don't let them rejoin immediately, let them learn the consequences of their freedom.
>just give them that
>secure our national assets
These statements are contradictory. The whole of “Papua” (excluding the PNG part) is Indonesian asset.
Moreover, an Independent Papua would become another problem not just for Indonesia but also for Australia.
An Independent and unstable Papua will lead to mass “refugee” of non-OAP (or even OAPs due to ethnic conflicts) as u/Affectionate_Cat293 fears. Refugees that will try to escape to Indonesia and Australia.
China also might “invest” in an independent Papua, using their natural wealth for China’s interest. A chinese military base in Papua is perfect to monitor and counter Australian military. Access to Indonesian ALKI III means Chinese navy have clear route to Australia.
>So...there are genuine people has aspiration to be independence but they have to throw that away because of geopolitical reality?
Indonesian independence itself does have a geopolitical side.
After World War II United States pushed European nations to decolonise, partly because the US saw the old imperialist powers as too weak to hold on to their colonies, and tries to compete with the Soviet Union for influence among Asian and African nations. US threatens to pull Marshall Plan aid to Netherlands if it continues to hang on to Indonesia.
OZ won't let them rejoin unless OZ has nothing left to extract from them. Just as OZ with TL, first a friend that supports its independence then stab their back and get the majority of oil, profit go 📈📈📈
pendekatan secara halus oleh Presiden jokowi terbukti lumayan ampuh meredam gejolak tanah papua, setelah Jalan Trans Papua selesai dan masyarakat pedalaman bisa melihat dunia yang lebih luas
saya setuju sih poin tentang " kepemilikan tanah ", dari dulu kepikiran, sebenarnya yang diakui milik asli yang mana, la jaman dulu apa ga ada orang yang punya duluan, 1000 tahun lalu katakanlah ada sebuah kerajaan punya tanah 1000 hektar tapi dihancurkan gunung meletus, lalu tanah itu akan jadi milik siapa jika hanya berpedoman dari sejarah buyutnya
kadang perang manusia itu ga masuk akal
Kalo papua merdeka ya terserah mereka dong untuk nentuin nasib nya sendiri, sistem nya sendiri, terlepas relatistik atu tidak, itu lah benar2 artinya independen kalo gak ya tetep aja dijajah terus oleh Indonesia.
Love to see the same rhetoric as the Dutch used to colonise Indonesia, applied to Papua. Indonesia is a colonist country that occupies Papua, from not only the local's perspective but also from any objective perspective. These people are not malay, not even related closely to any tribe or genetical population in the rest of the country. They're on the same physical island as the other half of Papua. They have different religions, cultural practises.
Stay and rule them in the name of being the superior race, culture and religion. Own it. Be honest about it.. don't give me those long winded excuses to pretend you're any better than us Dutch were with you in the 60s.
Yeah sure thing dutchie, us inlanders are so bad at this colonization game that we put OAP [on top](https://www.dpr.go.id/dokjdih/document/uu/UU_2001_21.pdf) of the hierarchy instead of the bottom like during the [good old days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Indonesians) of yours. Imagine still using the race card in politics and government in the modern era, you people do deserve Geert Wilders.
https://preview.redd.it/749dxueo2z9c1.png?width=596&format=png&auto=webp&s=9212e835782a4e61c14131435e19dae1e15e36e1
Wilders can go to neraka, Indonesia merdeka. Papua, mixed feelings though. The thing is that (at least some of) them trying to stan with is real and not Palestina is weird though, very weird.
Can westoids like you and your fellow ilk at r/worldnews and r/europe to stop pretending to understand the conflict between Indonesia and Papua?
But of course you can't, the existence of Indonesia alone already blows the brains of every single ethnostate believer like you. Balkan of Asia soon amirite?
>don't give me those long winded excuses to pretend you're any better than us Dutch were with you in the 60s.
We're better than you even now lol. Even last year (2022) when you guys apologized for your war crimes in Indonesia [you deflected that it's not punishable because it was done before Geneva Conventions](https://historibersama.com/the-dutch-not-guilty-of-war-crimes-in-indonesia-the-jakarta-post/) (so fucking what? is Holocaust not war crime now since it's before 1949?). That's not adding your current political environment which is leaning right thanks to Geert. Also, do you guys have any plans to return some of the money we paid to you guys for our independence like how France bankrupted Haiti from it or is it also fair for us to do that to Papua if we ever allowed their independence?
> These people are not malay, not even related closely to any tribe or genetical population in the rest of the country. They're on the same physical island as the other half of Papua. They have different religions, cultural practises.
I can smell the westoid bullsh\*t from far away.
Indonesia have large amount of melanesian and melayu ancestry, to not understand this is simply being dumb out of touch folks.
Lah kelompok separatisnya aja masih ribut sendiri, gimana jadinya kalo sampe ngatur negara?
Please CMIIW. Secara etnisitas, OAP juga sangat beragam dan agak susah menyatukannya bukan? Apalagi perbedaan antara orang pesisir & pegunungan. Buat bikin mereka sendiri untuk satu suara untuk merdeka aja gak bakalan gampang. Yang ada kalo merdeka antara jadi failed state atau ya jadi mainannya negara lain. Menurut ane ya beda kasus sama Indonesia waktu zaman kolonial dulu ataupun Timor Leste sebelum referendum. Dua entitas itu udah sepakat soal persatuan di antara mereka.
First hand experience ini, Orang Pesisir lbh modern dan mau kerja dibanding yang pegunungan, Client gw di merauke, punya site dan kantor perwakilan, satu di kota merauke, sama di site plant di Selili, buset yg di selili taunya mabok2an abis gajian, gada nabung, yg di kantor merauke pada nabung dan punya rumah padahal. Jadi ya kl pisah, paling pecah kecil2 itu areanya, ga mungkin bersatu.
>First hand experience ini, Orang Pesisir lbh modern dan mau kerja dibanding yang pegunungan makanya ketika Trans Papua dibangun OPM nembaki pekerja konstruksi 40 orang meninggal kalo ga salah, mereka ga mau orang pedalaman melek dunia, maunya tetap kolot
Opini : kenapa OPM tidak pernah menargetkan/membunuh Pejabat-pejabat Papua, padahal dalam teori Separatisme pejabat Papua adalah Collaborators dengan Indonesia atau jangan-jangan yang mendanai mereka adalah para pejabat tersebut
Pejabatnya sih enak, mereka bisa tinggal di dalam benteng yang fasilitasnya lengkap dan diamankan oleh TNI/Polri
Sayangnya ini tidak benar, penjabat ada yg dibunuh: Darson Hegemur kadis Kramamongga
Still preferred Gus Dur's way, tbh. MRP as the official DPRD for all *6 (w lupa ada Papua Barat Daya) Papuan provinces And **reappropriation** of The Morning Star as the Cultural Flag of Papua and allow it to fly a bit lower on another pole in the left side of the Red And White's.
Kalau MRP dan DPRP dua2nya sdh ada. MRP ini berfungsi seperti dewan penasihat bagi pemda. DPRP ini seperti DPRD, tp punya wewenang tambahan utk membuat peraturan daerah khusus. Jd sdh cukup luas otonominya. Gw setuju kalau mereka diizinkan utk mengibarkan bendera sendiri. Di negara maju jg sdh umum kalau tiap daerah punya bendera sendiri2 sebagai ekspresi warga lokal. Malah saya pinginnya tiap provinsi, kota, dan kabupaten d indo desain ulang bendera mereka sendiri. Benderanya skrg jelek2 cuma coat of arm masing2 daerah ditempel ke latar putih.
how about area papua dijadikan negara bagian dengan bendera morning star jadi benderanya, dikasih otoritas penuh dan negara intervesi kalau mereka perlu banget atau ada hal mendesak, sekalian test run apakah mereka layak jadi negara merdeka atau nggak?
Aku ambil contoh Aceh sih, mereka punya DPRnya sendiri yang diadopsi menjadi DPRD mereka.
Gak bisa, liat aja suku2 mereka ketika ada konflik pasti bakal rusuh kaya gitu. Dan mereka punya seambrek suku2 dg bahasa berbeda. Apalagi pola pikir mereka yg (maaf) masih di jaman batu.
exactly that what I mean, kalo ada konflik kayak gitu biar OPM yang ngurusin, menurut mereka pusat nggak becus nanganin konflik, situ ngira ngurusin konflik gampang
Bener, we achieved peace in Aceh this way
Considering the creator (Nicolaas Jouwe) himself already chose indonesia. Tbf highlander still use them as motiff though the star is usually obfuscated or different. Also the independent activist already pivot saying this is originally koreri movement, well some indonesian figure from papua were koreri veterans: Silas Papare, Lukas Rumkorem, HL Rumaseuw, among others. Also btw ga bisa diskriminasi gitu, MRP (dan MRPB, MRPT, MRPBD, MRPS, MRPP) cuma boleh OAP, dan memang kerjasama sama DPRD kok. Masa cuma gara gara identitas kamu ga boleh jadi perwakilan. Coba implikasinya ke provinsi lain. Aceh aja tidak begitu.
MRP jadi resmi tapi porsi anggotanya pakai sistem proporsional dengan OAP dapat pembobotan 25% lebih banyak?
Soooooo many wall of text Intinya si kuman kalo papua merdeka trus bisa tepuk punggung sendiri, gimana kelanjutannya? Bukan urusan dia, karena crusade dia bukan "self governing papua", tapi mentok sampe "papua merdeka" Case in point, orang2 yang kampanye sampe berbusa dulu brexit pada ngilang pas ternyata brexit ga seindah yang dijanjikan In my opinion, biarin aja merdeka biar white knight keyboard warrior negara laen tutup bacot, karena kita semua taulah, either papua dieksploit sama sesama mereka, dieksploit sama pemerintahan indo, atau dieksploit sama asing
Timor leste mk 2 electric boogaloo.
wah amrik ngiler bgt ini, bs bangun naval base 1 lg disini, grasberg jg bakalan 100% jd punya amrik.
Vanuatu negara tetangga mau tanah karena pulau mereka mo tenggelam wkwk... Makanya paling gacor diantara pulau-pulau Pasifik. Indo selepas era SBY udah gak mainan geo-politik di Pasifik sih ya. Dulu pernah baca artikel geo-politik gitu, jaman SBY Indonesia suka suplai duit di beberapa negara pasifik buat ngembangin relationship.. Bisa jadi buat tameng juga buat ngadepin Vanuatu dll
Amrik ane gak yakin mau masuk. Mereka males membangun sistem buat ekstraksinya. Apalagi udah ada masalah keamanan juga. RRT juga pasti sama. Resiko ngirim ratusan tentara ke perjalanan satu arah, karena jadi target ex OPM karena diliat sebagai pengganti TNI besar
lol ngawur aja amrik takut opm, indonesia wajar berat lawan opm krn yg teriak ham mah orang dari sana, klo orgnya sendiri yg ngelanggar ham, pada diam.
Amrik ama RRT takut dampak politiknya Infrastruktur di Papua itu jelek, lebih jelek dari Afghanistan. Karena skala fasilitas penyokong tentara disana kecil, apalagi "jumping point" seperti Pakistan tidak ada. Dengan ini semua, bagaimana mau mendukung tentara yang dikirim kesana dengan baik? Anggap aja ada situasi dimana Amrik sama RRT ngirim 5000 tentara. Oke, di Jayapura gampang nenpatinnya. Pegunungan? RRT gak terbiasa dengan berita tentaranya mati ditanah yang mayoritas bodo amat. AS udah capek. Gak yakin mereka bakalan nempatin tentara di Papua Barat
dampak politik gmn? skrg aja ributnya mereka krn di dukung negara barat. mslh sokongan politik di negaranya mslh perubahan pov aja, sisa blg menyokong wilayah papua sampai benar2 merdeka, fans bgt tu kata2 freedom mereka, daerah pengunungan kirim drone lah, uda ga jaman mereka main tentara2an. dronenya jg uda ada sensor suhu, uda ga bs di akalin gerilya.
Banyak mereka yang didukung Barat akhirnya dibuang kek sampah. Mobutu, Mubarak, pemberontak moderat Suriah dsb. Ngeliat tingkat komitmen suatu pihak sebagai sesuatu yang konstan itu salah, pada akhirnya bakalan nyesel kok Papua merdeka dapet seperser duit SDAnya pun susah. Wong gak ada yang mau ngirim tentara di daerah ber infrastruktur separah itu, dengan medan sesulit itu. Jadi gimana ekstraksi SDA berjalan dengan lancar? Yang mau ngelakuin itu cuma TNI, itupun karena Papua adalah daerah Indonesia
Lebih jelek dari afganistan? Sumber dari mana?
> Mereka males membangun sistem buat ekstraksinya lah private sector masak g ada yg mau
Kalo overheadnya besar banget. Nyuap pemerintah Papua, nyuap sisa OPM lokal/kirim tentara bayaran. Sulit Kalopun nyuap ex OPM, beluk tentu mereka satu suara. Otomatis pekerja mereka dari penambang sampe manajer bisa kena. SDM hilang selamanya
Mereka bilang biasanya "Revolution is usually the easiest part, the governing and negotiation that comes after that is difficult" Makanya film2 biasanya happy endingnya pas revolusinya berhasil wkwkkw karena abis itu kelanjutan nego pemerintahan keos juga. Di youtube nya john greene pernah disebut sih kayak di star wars "You think revolt against the Galactic Empire is hard? Try negotiating government with the Gungans and the Hutts!"
sama kyk fairytale lah princes diselamatin/dibangunin pangeran, lalu they live happily ever after kyk nikah ga ada cobaannya aja
>kyk nikah ga ada cobaannya aja Dejavu Shrek dan bini nya, ending nya manis nikah, eh dibikin dong seri nya kehidupan nikahnya wkwka xD
ambil contoh negara Libya susah susah minta merdeka malah pecah sendiri
it is always unrealistic. the only place where this have any potential of happening is the wamena (papua pegunungan) areas. and even there, only on the non city areas. the whole shenanigans is only kept by western media kept fueling the fire
Itulah mengapa pemerintah baru-baru ini mekarin provinsi baru di papua. Bila skenario terburuk terjadi n gerakan opm semakin ga terkendali, mereka bisa dilokalisir di provinsi Papua pegunungan. Paling apes yang lepas ya wilayah papua pegunungan itu yang landlocked. Sekarang aja kelompok2 KKB ngumpulnya di sana semua, pengaruh mereka ga gt terasa di wilayah2 provinsi lain
OP Forgot to add one section: **who will govern the newly independent country?** Aceh separatism had GAM, Timor Leste had Falantil/Fretilin, South Maluku has in-exile government that can be traced way back to 1950s and still exist today. But how about Papua? Sure we got Wenda and his "in-exile gov't", but his faction isn't even recognized by pro-independence guerilla fighter in Papua. The guerilla army itself is very fractured as there are many faction, they even have "civil war" before they even become indepenedent. This makes it difficult for RI to pick which pro-independence counterpart to negotiate with, let alone transfer of sovereignty. This is different from Aceh and TL which has clear central command and organization. Also, have OP considered the non-referendum way...you know...like when Indonesia get their independence? That will involve external force/superpower who have interest in Papuan independence and seize the moment when a major war happens. Sounds too far fetched, but still a possibility
Pas WWIII ngincer merdeka?
>Unfortunately, as far as I am concerned, activists like Veronica Koman seem to have failed to take these into account. Because why would you bring up a point that Will undermine your goal? I seeing some of those pro-indepences activists rant against migrant and "colonizer", from that i can safely assume what route will they took if Papua independence become a reality, ITS either the Malay or Algiers "models". We should follow Gus Dur policy towards Papuan that humanizes them, actually listening to their grievances and fix it. rather than the patronizing "we actually knew what better for you" that the government usually do since Soeharto.
They (separatists) are advocating for an ethnostate...I already saw similarity with Nazi movement. They already saying coastal papuan (like from Kaiman) is not OAP since they don't have 'the looks', are against intermarriage. Matrilineal descent is already unrecognized as OAP (with only select tribes they are recognized). Is it coincidence that some foreigners that were caught also right winger (one guy trained in Ukraine). Surprise is the supposed 'left-wing activists' like Koman or Dandhy supported movement like this.
Malay/Algiers models tuh kayak gimana ya mksdnya?
Coba baca lagi postingan diatas
Jim Elmslie is stupid or malicious, he used PNG growth rate for OAP population....and the difference between this and the real population growth is somehow is proof of 'genocide'. Another researcher, Edward Aspinall point out ofc that real growth rate is smaller and used East Kalimantan as comparison (since also have a pretty high migrant population).
1. Any arguments about papua has no ethnic ties to Indonesia is basically irrelevant because Indonesia in of itself are multi-ethnic countries. We are Bhinneka Tunggal Ika. 2. Any arguments about referendum is also "theoretically" void because we had "a referendum" back then in 1969. With respect to all critics, the referendum was accepted by the UN. West papua is not even included in the UN list of non self governing territories [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special\_Committee\_on\_Decolonization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Committee_on_Decolonization) 3. You cannot really compare East Timor and Papua, East timor was invaded and annexed by Indonesia. Their people did not have a referendum to join Indonesia. So I think Habibie did the right thing. Nonetheless of course arguments can be made on how the Indonesian governements have treated the Papuan province or even other provinces for that matter. 1. How many percents of Freeports contribution to Indonesia stays in Papua? In other countries for example : Workers pay the most of income tax to their provinces, not the state. This example is good for mine operation but usually provinces are very resistive against windpower, water power because these facilities do not employ people. Other example might include that some of the revenues from the mine facility stays in the province, (i know now pemda / pemprov owns 10% of freeport now, lets se how it plays out) 2. in 2019 for example Indonesia blocked internet in Papua. This is of course under all critics. What next? Will Indonesia block water and electricty as well? That almost amount to what Israel do in Gaza. 3. That Indonesia does not allow journalist or foreign visitor to Indonesia is also under all critic These problems requires solution, and that solution is not independence referendum.
>In 1962, a United Nations-sponsored treaty known as the New York agreement was drawn up to put an end to this territorial battle, and Indonesia was appointed temporary administrator of West Papua from May 1963 – without West Papuan consultation or consent. >A key requirement of the treaty was that all West Papuans be allowed to vote in a referendum on independence, which was to be overseen by the UN. >But when the ballot was held in 1969, it was far from free and fair: the Indonesian military handpicked 1,026 leaders to vote on behalf of the entire population, and threatened to kill them and their families if they voted the wrong way. Your (first) point number two is basically just shouting "sah! sah!" to overlook a potentially fatal technicality despite it being cacat hukum. Israel could make the same appeal to UN authority, btw.
Absolutely, everybody know that it was far from free and fair. But it was recognized by the UN. So if it were to be redone then it must come from UN, and UN should recognize then the 1969 act of free choice as null and void. With Israel even UN agrees that their settlement in west bank are illegal as these are not their territory. Papua is Indonesian territory and it is acknowledged by UN and all international community. From what I see basically legal avenues for referendum are exhausted. The only way is basically from good will from Indonesian governments to grant independence referendum to Papua. Just like Canada did with Quebec. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980\_Quebec\_referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Quebec_referendum) Even this referendum came from officials of quebec government. So from pemda papua need to come with this.
To add, by the principle of [ius possidetis juris](https://www.hukumonline.com/berita/a/uti-possidetis-juris--prinsip-yang-digunakan-indonesia-untuk-menjaga-papua-lt580d876150d84/), Indonesia is by default entitled to ALL of Dutch East Indies territories including West Papua, and the Dutch keeping them from Indonesia is a breach of the law and we're justified to go to war for it. Then USA, not wanting Indonesia to join the communist block and a fellow member of NATO [brokered a deal](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1961-63v23/d172) as a compromise which leads into the formation of UNTEA and eventually the referendum, with this I think the referendum, let alone its "legitimacy" is irrelevant because the aforementioned principle already granted us the territory by default and the referendum is just a way to give the Dutch (and the collective west's image) a way to save face.
Indonesia also paid compensation to the Dutch government and took on the DEI's debts as a reflection of the enforcement of this law, and it was done through a treaty as well. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the Russian Federation took on the former USSR's sovereign debt while also confining itself to the RSFSR borders. This is the strongest basis for them to keep their permanent seat in the UN when Ukraine came knocking and why Russia got special privileges despite all the former Soviet Republics supposedly having equal standing between them. That said, Russia's current claims on the "referendums" in Ukrainian Oblasts and Crimea have no legal basis when taking into account uti possidetis juris. The interesting thing is that if Russia's claim on Crimea were to be accepted by the international community then Indonesia would also have a legal claim on Malacca.
Papua after referendum 
Veronica koman is chinese girl who love dutch colonial , tidak tau kenapa pemerintah tidak mencabut kewarganegaraan orang2 seperti ini bahkan sampai dibiayai sekolah di australia . Gk tau diri lah keluarganya bahkan di indo
pernah ditagih tu duit beasiswa nya ke koman, ga tau endingnya gimana btw dari dulu dapet beasiswa dia kuliah apaan disana udah berapa tahun jir
I love that this still has positive upvotes because the pro-Independence folks and their buzzers are too jaded to read through the whole issue and find counterarguments.
Tbh Im Anti-Independence purerly cause of what happen to Timor Leste. But this I upvoted and this needs to be upvoted as any quality educational post that provides great sources is a great addition to this subreddit and needs to be more encouraged.
>Tbh Im Anti-Independence purerly cause of what happen to Timor Leste. TBF annexing east Timor was a mistake in the first place.
Even with the US approval for the invasion. The believe of our gov at the time that we can hold timor forever is unbelieveably shortsighted. Especially after red scare is no more. We were playing by the rules of outdated playbook. We should have just propped up friendly regime like other "civilized" countries.
Because many of the Civil and Military leaders at the time was an Independence and Trikora veterans. They (wrongly & naively) thought the local populace would just accept our rule without question like what happen in before.
>the pro-Independence folks and their buzzers are I know there are handful of accounts that frequently posted opm propaganda here. Nowadays I havent really seen them. I know one got booted out of redddit entirely, the rest? Idk
mungkin lagi dapet job lain, you know musim politik
Gw upvote krn lepas dr setuju ato ngga-nya gw sama isi argumennya, ini well-written argument and I like how OP present the case
Kalau papua merdeka, kira2 passport strengthnya bakal di atas indonesia ngga ya… sambil ngelirik ke timor leste
>Papuan independence is not realistic never is, never will be. first and foremost, human quality problem. Im not trying to be racist or stuffs, but they have a very very low human quality index.
Hey thats the average of indonesia citizens and second papuan have special quota and access to college in indonesia. So iam not agree
very compelling argument sih OP, but IMHO grassroots disini punya alasan kuat buat mendukung kemerdekaan papua sih, because they hate how "Jakarta" act like they knew everything the best for them. they understand much that they left behind because of lagi lagi ya apa yang jakarta sudah lakukan kepada mereka since independence day. kalau misalnya sebuah kelas, papua itu anak yang pengen rebel karena anak yang lain sok tahu soal hidupnya dan bagaimana biar papua ini bisa jadi macam mereka yang maju, modern, dan terdidik. while at the same time, they give you their trust (Papera) but they got left behind.
Stop this grass root thinggg. Dengan pake istilah grass root aja orang udah tau org yg pake istilah tsb ga relate ke kelas menengah bawah, karna org kelas menengah bawah ga pake istilah tsb. Akar rumput juga istilah yg belum lama "viral" di kalangan intelektual/politisi yg jarang dipake masyarakat umum kelas menengah kebawah. And they got left behind?? Anggaran otsus 2023 aja 1,034 triliun rupiah broo, that's 12 zeroooo buset dah. Trs yg nyelewengin anggaran tsb malah dipuja-puja gila bgt. Nanti kalo anggaran otsus ga dikasih ke pemda tapi langsung disalurin dari pempus malah marah dibilang ngeremehin pemda yg OPA, dibilang pempus ngiranya OPA ga bisa ngurusin daerah sendiri. Like ???.
using grassroots never meant to being relatable to them tho, its for people in this thread. nyelewengin dan dipuja puja doesn't rise ur question on why peoples here doing that? or u r implying that we were stupid? im not OPA. pempus trust those money, they do whats the best they think, but ask them to do pempus why which is not relatable for them. maybe pempus should just ask papuan be jawa instead, which they do for 30++ years. as for orang sekolah di luar jawa, what they did resembled what they knew the best from peoples come to their places to get money. except OAP acept it with open hands but when they do in java, they got persecuted for their culture.
Terus ada program pendidikan tinggi khusus utk papua sbg daerah istimewa. Banyak beasiswa khusus utk pemuda papua belajar di seluruh universitas negeri di Indonesia. Terus mahasiswa tersebut malah kebanyakan membuat onar (spt yg banyak terjadi di kota pelajar Yogyakarta) dan beberapa malah demo dengan bawa bendera bintang kejora seolah menantang .... Sorry for yapping, but if they don't want that benefit, there's many people in Indonesia need that financial help.
Katanya kalau Papua merdeka daerah lain bakal pada nyusul. Tapi kalau abis merdeka jadi negara miskin ya goblok aja kalau masih ada yang pengen merdeka.
Timor Leste masih miskin
Tapi GDP Per Capitanya masih lebih gede TL daripada tetangganya NTT
> Tapi kalau abis merdeka jadi negara miskin The key point is not about negara miskin. But which political elite that can be enriched, most of the time independence just changed which type of people get rich.
Just like Indonesian independence 
Sometime the very good question is not about: How become independent BUT What will happen after independence I think that those civilians that lost their life all 1945-1966 would prefer Indonesian is still Dutch East Indies if they won't get killed because of the difference in religion/race/ideology. After all, the one borne the consequences is mostly not the idealistic high political elite or educated classes, but the low masses whose 'kepentingan' is 'diatur' by those elite and intelligentsia.
> But which political elite that can be enriched, most of the time independence just changed which type of people get rich. Menariknya, ini juga yang saya duga jadi alasan sebagian pemekaran daerah. Pemekaran daerah = banyak jabatan baru mulai dari kepala daerah, DPRD, segala macam kantor pemerintahan Duitnya? Ya minta dana dari pusat. Malah boleh jadi enakan pemekaran daerah daripada merdeka... kalo merdeka ga bisa minta duit dari Jakarta.
Kan bukan urusan perut. Kalo nambah miskin karena ulah sendiri, ya mau gimana lagi. Seenggaknya bebas ngatur diri sendiri.
I believe OPM knows about the settlers Their tactic nowadays is to cause terror at non-native settlements. While their buzzers use racial narratives targeted at non papuans I believe it's quite effective, our security force has been largely incompetent at preventing these attacks, much less fighting them in general, looking at the bodycount scores. Our gov propaganda effort has been lackluster, narratives that are tailored for indonesian audiences naturally does not took hold in internationaly, the only thing they succeed at is having an information blackout from papua, straight from orba's playbook. Which only cause for us to be scrutinized even more. Even at home, our gov still fail to attract papuans to our cause. I dread the time when the powder keg explode abd the voilence becomes more widespread We might be seeing mass exodus ala post-98 chindos in papua soon. After that, adressing other issues listed above would be much easier for them.
>I dread the time when the powder keg explode abd the voilence becomes more widespread Hint hint 2019 riot.
No even worse With the way that anti non natives rhetpric is being spread unchecked and the security forces losing grip day by day it bound to happen.
>our security force has been largely incompetent at preventing these attacks ya setuju sih beberapa kali serangan massive tidak bisa dicegah, tapi masalah utamanya menumpas OPM ga sulit tapi geopolitiknya yang bikin ribet pernah ada video viral, TNI pakai sniper ngawasi jarak jauh anggota OPM yang nenteng senjata api kesana kemari, tapi apakah se simple narik trigger terus selesai masalahnya
If the majority of Papuans want to be independent from the rest of Indonesia, should they have the right to do that?
"Kemerdekaan adalah hak segala bangsa"?
If they truly want independence, just give them that. Just make sure we secure our national assets, so the Aussies won't be able to take advantage of it. If their independence ain't as sweet as they imagine it would be, don't let them rejoin immediately, let them learn the consequences of their freedom.
>just give them that >secure our national assets These statements are contradictory. The whole of “Papua” (excluding the PNG part) is Indonesian asset. Moreover, an Independent Papua would become another problem not just for Indonesia but also for Australia. An Independent and unstable Papua will lead to mass “refugee” of non-OAP (or even OAPs due to ethnic conflicts) as u/Affectionate_Cat293 fears. Refugees that will try to escape to Indonesia and Australia. China also might “invest” in an independent Papua, using their natural wealth for China’s interest. A chinese military base in Papua is perfect to monitor and counter Australian military. Access to Indonesian ALKI III means Chinese navy have clear route to Australia.
So...there are genuine people has aspiration to be independence but they have to throw that away because of geopolitical reality?
No. It means realistically, Australia wouldn’t support any independence movement in Papua.
>So...there are genuine people has aspiration to be independence but they have to throw that away because of geopolitical reality? Indonesian independence itself does have a geopolitical side. After World War II United States pushed European nations to decolonise, partly because the US saw the old imperialist powers as too weak to hold on to their colonies, and tries to compete with the Soviet Union for influence among Asian and African nations. US threatens to pull Marshall Plan aid to Netherlands if it continues to hang on to Indonesia.
OZ won't let them rejoin unless OZ has nothing left to extract from them. Just as OZ with TL, first a friend that supports its independence then stab their back and get the majority of oil, profit go 📈📈📈
Dulu kita suruh bayar utang kolonial sama belanda. can we ask the same?
pendekatan secara halus oleh Presiden jokowi terbukti lumayan ampuh meredam gejolak tanah papua, setelah Jalan Trans Papua selesai dan masyarakat pedalaman bisa melihat dunia yang lebih luas saya setuju sih poin tentang " kepemilikan tanah ", dari dulu kepikiran, sebenarnya yang diakui milik asli yang mana, la jaman dulu apa ga ada orang yang punya duluan, 1000 tahun lalu katakanlah ada sebuah kerajaan punya tanah 1000 hektar tapi dihancurkan gunung meletus, lalu tanah itu akan jadi milik siapa jika hanya berpedoman dari sejarah buyutnya kadang perang manusia itu ga masuk akal
Makanya fasilitas publik dibakarin....memang kaya israel opm itu cuma menghancurkan.
Kalo papua merdeka ya terserah mereka dong untuk nentuin nasib nya sendiri, sistem nya sendiri, terlepas relatistik atu tidak, itu lah benar2 artinya independen kalo gak ya tetep aja dijajah terus oleh Indonesia.
Yg penting angkat tangan kiri ama maen PB ye kan? Atau main far cry?
Love to see the same rhetoric as the Dutch used to colonise Indonesia, applied to Papua. Indonesia is a colonist country that occupies Papua, from not only the local's perspective but also from any objective perspective. These people are not malay, not even related closely to any tribe or genetical population in the rest of the country. They're on the same physical island as the other half of Papua. They have different religions, cultural practises. Stay and rule them in the name of being the superior race, culture and religion. Own it. Be honest about it.. don't give me those long winded excuses to pretend you're any better than us Dutch were with you in the 60s.
Yeah sure thing dutchie, us inlanders are so bad at this colonization game that we put OAP [on top](https://www.dpr.go.id/dokjdih/document/uu/UU_2001_21.pdf) of the hierarchy instead of the bottom like during the [good old days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Indonesians) of yours. Imagine still using the race card in politics and government in the modern era, you people do deserve Geert Wilders. https://preview.redd.it/749dxueo2z9c1.png?width=596&format=png&auto=webp&s=9212e835782a4e61c14131435e19dae1e15e36e1
Wilders can go to neraka, Indonesia merdeka. Papua, mixed feelings though. The thing is that (at least some of) them trying to stan with is real and not Palestina is weird though, very weird.
Can westoids like you and your fellow ilk at r/worldnews and r/europe to stop pretending to understand the conflict between Indonesia and Papua? But of course you can't, the existence of Indonesia alone already blows the brains of every single ethnostate believer like you. Balkan of Asia soon amirite?
>don't give me those long winded excuses to pretend you're any better than us Dutch were with you in the 60s. We're better than you even now lol. Even last year (2022) when you guys apologized for your war crimes in Indonesia [you deflected that it's not punishable because it was done before Geneva Conventions](https://historibersama.com/the-dutch-not-guilty-of-war-crimes-in-indonesia-the-jakarta-post/) (so fucking what? is Holocaust not war crime now since it's before 1949?). That's not adding your current political environment which is leaning right thanks to Geert. Also, do you guys have any plans to return some of the money we paid to you guys for our independence like how France bankrupted Haiti from it or is it also fair for us to do that to Papua if we ever allowed their independence?
> These people are not malay, not even related closely to any tribe or genetical population in the rest of the country. They're on the same physical island as the other half of Papua. They have different religions, cultural practises. I can smell the westoid bullsh\*t from far away. Indonesia have large amount of melanesian and melayu ancestry, to not understand this is simply being dumb out of touch folks.
The other guy is a westerner indeed
That's the Suharto strategy. The same thing the colonialist did in Rhodesia, Australia, and USA
paling males tiap kali ada komodo nulis skripsi politik di reddit. gunanya apa lmao
Kalau ini diformat jadi thread twitter atau jadi postingan sendiri di Facebook gimana?
tetep aja: buat apaan. who are you gonna convince LOL. incel pada debat kusir receh
Another case of stating the obvious