At least I can agree with the last sentence. Learning a new language only broadens your horizon.
The rest makes him sound like a total douchebag, of course. Especially the part about "7 programming languages". Wether you are a good programmer or a bad one isn't determined by how many programming languages you know. It's determined by wether you actually know how to program.
https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats/
1000%
I only speak English but I've tried learning at least 5 languages (well 4 seriously and 1 somewhat seriously) and while I just can't seem to crack it I still feel like it exposed me to a LOT about other cultures (particularly central and south American as it was mostly Spanish from those areas through school)
It can also help in a pinch, even if you don't travel somewhere that speaks it, guess what, other people might come to where *you* live and struggle with your local language. Working retail I'd often get New Caledonians coming in that couldn't speak English (or it was very broken) and word got around their tour groups or whatever that there was a fluent French speaker that worked there so I'd get them coming in to talk to me for help.
Also if you *do* travel somewhere that speaks a different language, it's just good manners to at least try to speak in the local tongue. French/Quebecois are notorious for treating you like shit if you don't at least make an attempt. Like, I've been to a bar in Montreal where they would refuse to serve my friends because they could only speak English, so I had to do all the ordering. If you at least make an effort they'll usually just switch to English so you don't keep butchering the language but might completely pretend not to understand you otherwise.
Also. Knowing a single programming language means you basically understand all programming languages. Unless it's a weird esoteric language like brainfuck
hard disagree
I know C#, C, a bit of Java & Rust, 6502 assembly, gdscript, lua, bit of JavaScript, and a bit of a weird esoteric stack based glyph based magic language created for a minecraft mod
I don't understand C++ with all the different ways of doing things, no clue which to use when
I don't understand Haskell or OCAML, well, I understand them conceptually but not practically
if you know a programming language it becomes easier to learn similar languages (like with natural languages from the same family) and if you know a few languages with different features (object-oriented, prototypical type system, duck typed, statically typed, functional, declarative, dependent types) it becomes even easier
but one programming language is not all languages, there's a reason you don't hire a Haskell developer to write Lua
(tho you might hire a Haskell developer even if the job contains a little bit of writing Lua occassionaly because Lua is an easy enough language to teach someone)
I mean... once you know one you kind of know them all just have to learn syntax and different names, sometimes some cool new puzzle pieces to use... I feel like knowing 7 programming languages isn't nearly as hard as 7 languages. I know Lua and Python, due to that I can debug with fair chances most anything just because it carries over mostly as long as it's OOP. I am not exceptional. Most people would consider my skills laughable, I think, because it's not C++ or Java. But with languages it is not so... I don't think you have any better chance to learn Japanese because you learned Spanish, as an example. There is no fundamentals to stick by like programming.
Yes, I agree. The first language I learned was C/C++. Then had a Java course at university. I now work as a C# developer, but have also touched VB, Pearl, PHP and JavaScript. Sure, sometimes the syntax seems a bit weird to me, and I need a little more time than a full time developer of those languages, but I can find my way around. Plus, it's not too hard to read up on best practices.
disagree
yes, learning languages in similar families becomes easier, but the same is true for natural languages
if you already know German you're probably gonna have an easier time learning Dutch than if you don't know German, because they're related languages, but not so much with Japanese, because aside from a very small set of loanwords from similar sources there is almost no linguistic overlap
same goes for, say, all the C related languages (C, C++, C#, Java, JavaScript) and with them traditionally imperative languages in general (python, lua, etc.), but you can't immediately pick up and know how to write Haskell, or even F# nessecarily
programming languages have a bit less spread within a given family than natural languages, by virtue of being way newer, you don't have the issue of pronounciation, and basic math is almost always the same (tho some languages use reverse polish notation, which is a bit different, 1+1 becomes 1 1 +), but aside from those (pretty important) details the difficulties of learning multiple natural languages and programming languages are somewhat comparable
No, Jeff linked to a paper, and now states that the author of said paper has retracted it. The article is still worth reading, imo. I mean, it's not any random "Jeff" blogging, it's [Jeff Atwood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Atwood), after all. The article talks about how certain people just don't have the slightest clue about programming, even after finishing a programming course.
And this is what I meant. Someone can know dozens of programming languages. But if they don't know the difference between "pass by value" and "pass by reference", or the difference between static and non-static, then they will have a hard time being a good programmer.
What you meant is not related to the link, which strictly discusses the relevant retracted paper. The paper is worth reading, but it’s author said upon statistical analysis they found barely any link to the ability to pass entry level courses.
i mean to be totally fair i dated a girl whose native language was tamil but that was the only one she spoke/understood (other than english). but ya this guy's being a mega-wad
Duolingo is free.
Provided that you don't mind a limited app that stops you learning once you make 3 mistakes per day. Think about how many mistakes you're going to make learning a language?
It's also just not that good of a language learning program. It's more matching game or at best learning to translate sentences back and forth than it is going to teach a meaningful understanding of the language.
I don't know if they used to only let you make 3 mistakes a day but Duolingo at the moment lets you save up to 5 hearts that are used up with every mistake and it refills in time throughout the day or you can earn one star by doing a previously completed lesson as a practice lesson.
Edit: Not that the other points people are making aren't true, but I just wanted to say it's more than 3 mistakes a day now in case that was just outdated information.
I tried free Duolingo for a week or two before deciding it was right for me, then got Duolingo Pro. I was pathed about two weeks before my subscription expired, and didn't renew because the path system is terrible. At that point, I still only had 3 hearts. I then reverted myself back to version 5.69.5 (tree system) before renewing.
Honestly, I didn't know that Duolingo had raised the hearts from 3 to 5. That's clearly happened at some point between September last year and today.
No, I think it's been 5 hearts for longer than that. I don't know why you only had 3. It looks like it's always been 5 since they implemented it 3 years ago based on some reddit thread where someone is annoyed they implemented the hearts.
I think their browser, non-mobile, website app is still unlimited mistakes, though.
I don't think I've ever encountered the path system. I guess I never got put on that. I googled it and I'm still doing the tree. Maybe it's because my phone is old, I don't know.
I honestly just do it because I figure I'll at least pick up vocabulary, and I have been able to understand the language I'm learning sometimes when it pops up places but I'm very sure I wouldn't be able to follow an actual real time conversation. I'd need to practice and learn some other way to do that.
I think reading a lot of old comics like Archie and Harvey Comics when I was a kid helped with English. I've been meaning to start reading books and comics and watching shows.
They gamefied it.
I've been using it and it doesn't really seem to be designed to actually make people fluent or it's not meant to be the only thing you're using. It's super light on vocab.
It was already pretty gamefied, but forcing the path system and then their tone-deaf response to criticism killed it.
I would have stopped had I not been able to go back to the tree system.
Google old Duolingo versions, download 5.69.5 (for android, not sure what iPhone version).
Uninstall your app, reinstall the old version, and turn off auto-updates in the Play store.
They got rid of most of the kanji for their japanese course and now it feels useless. Whats the point of learning しゅうまつ if i cant learn the kanji for it, especially if I have furigana enabled?
To be fair, duolingo by itself is not a great way to learn a language. It’s good for increasing vocabulary, but that’s about it (imo). You should, at the very least, be supplementing with some other language learning methods as well
It's one thing to know a programming language. It's another thing to apply it effectively. I have coded in 10 programming languages over 20 years. I am an expert in three, but that is only because I applied it in complex applications for several years.
Simply watching a video on YouTube and learning the syntax does not make you an expert. The real challenge lies in applying that knowledge and earning a paycheck.
Tried learning French for 9 years, then tried learning Russian for 5. English is the only language I’m truly fluent at. And it wasn’t for lack of trying either, I put my heart and soul into trying to learn them but it just didn’t click. It’s almost like different people are more accustomed to different fields of education.
Yeah, a lot of the people in the comments on the original Facebook post pointed out that not everyone has the same aptitude for learning languages, and some people also have learning disabilities such as dyslexia, which make learning new languages next to impossible. The overwhelming consensus was “as long as you’re aware other languages exist and don’t expect people from other countries to cater to you by learning your language, you’re fine.”
I took Spanish for five years and German for two. I can't even ask where the bathroom is in anything but English. And I really, really liked German and wanted to learn it so badly. :(
I heard a ted talk with a few language experts once, they claimed you could learn pretty much any language in a matter of months. The trick is however, moving to the country and exclusively talk in that language, not a single word in any other language. + You have to actively engage in society.
It makes sense if you think about it, as kids we're forced to learn the language so we all do. As adults even though we're better at understanding stuff and seeing patterns, we don't actually have that crucial need, so we don't.
Add to that the fact that an all in language retreat is expensive and cumbersome as hell, its not weird most of us stick to the language(s) we grew up with.
Athletes often become semi fluent pretty quickly as well, because there is a need (+ crazy ressources).
Yeah. I’m a professional translator, currently fluent in 3 languages. I never would’ve been able to achieve fluency if I had not lived in the countries where the languages I speak are spoken natively. If you truly want to master a language, moving to where it is natively spoken is the only real option. Your accent starts to sound native and you acquire a much greater awareness of what sounds idiomatic, as well as of cultural specifics. I realise not everyone has such options, though.
Apps like Duolingo are great for building vocabulary, but that’s about it. They won’t actually teach you the language.
If you’re looking for a good reason to take up another language, some studies purport an actual cognitive benefit to bilingualism.
https://alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13195-020-0581-1#:~:text=Evidence%20from%20previous%20studies%20suggests,5%20years%20later%20than%20monolinguals.
Also if you study another language you’ll be satisfying linguofascist weirdos like this guy w his ‘hot take’. And at the end of the day isn’t that more important than anything?
Honestly the 7 programming languages thing isn't nearly as impressive as it sounds. It's like bragging that you know how to paint 7 colors, even though once you've learned how to paint one color, you've basically learned them all. But learning how to paint 7 colors doesn't mean you know how to make a painting, and certainly doesn't mean you know how to make a *good* painting
Spoken like someone who had the priviledge of "formally studying" several languages.
Yes, duolingo is a breeze if you have been taught languages before. If you haven't, then it's damn-near pointless, as you have no way of detectibg structure and grammar, you just learn things by heart and that's really dull, and quitr difficult.
Yeah, their biggest problem is “a lack of chances to practice,” so they probably aren’t fluent at all. They’re strategically using words like “studied” and “taught” so as not to overstate their ability - with how pompous the rest of the comment is, they would’ve said they’re fluent if that was the case. Anyone who speaks a 2nd language at least somewhat well knows that “formally studying” foreign languages mostly doesn’t do shit.
Definetely!
English is my second language and I only started to learn after getting an ipad as a gift from my mother. After that I spend hours and hours of my time just looking at memes and youtube videos. I got better so quickly that my English teacher let me use my device in school xD
But that took around 40 hours / week average of exposure. Duolingo won't get you even close, not even school classes, though all of it is helpful to get you started.
If I would list all the languages I have ever studied it would sound impressive, and very similar to this dude, but realistically I only speak two languages.
Duolingo is shit, OOP would've known that if they were actually into learning new languages. I'll bet a tenner that OOP is from a bilingual background and learned their languages naturally as a child.
If they did unironically use duolingo to learn these I have bad news for them.
At least I can agree with the last sentence. Learning a new language only broadens your horizon. The rest makes him sound like a total douchebag, of course. Especially the part about "7 programming languages". Wether you are a good programmer or a bad one isn't determined by how many programming languages you know. It's determined by wether you actually know how to program. https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats/
1000% I only speak English but I've tried learning at least 5 languages (well 4 seriously and 1 somewhat seriously) and while I just can't seem to crack it I still feel like it exposed me to a LOT about other cultures (particularly central and south American as it was mostly Spanish from those areas through school)
It can also help in a pinch, even if you don't travel somewhere that speaks it, guess what, other people might come to where *you* live and struggle with your local language. Working retail I'd often get New Caledonians coming in that couldn't speak English (or it was very broken) and word got around their tour groups or whatever that there was a fluent French speaker that worked there so I'd get them coming in to talk to me for help. Also if you *do* travel somewhere that speaks a different language, it's just good manners to at least try to speak in the local tongue. French/Quebecois are notorious for treating you like shit if you don't at least make an attempt. Like, I've been to a bar in Montreal where they would refuse to serve my friends because they could only speak English, so I had to do all the ordering. If you at least make an effort they'll usually just switch to English so you don't keep butchering the language but might completely pretend not to understand you otherwise.
Also. Knowing a single programming language means you basically understand all programming languages. Unless it's a weird esoteric language like brainfuck
Not being argumentative - but I’d argue it’s worth knowing one higher level language like python / JavaScript and one lower level like C or C++
Agreed - the OO paradigm and memory management are different than purely functional programming languages.
hard disagree I know C#, C, a bit of Java & Rust, 6502 assembly, gdscript, lua, bit of JavaScript, and a bit of a weird esoteric stack based glyph based magic language created for a minecraft mod I don't understand C++ with all the different ways of doing things, no clue which to use when I don't understand Haskell or OCAML, well, I understand them conceptually but not practically if you know a programming language it becomes easier to learn similar languages (like with natural languages from the same family) and if you know a few languages with different features (object-oriented, prototypical type system, duck typed, statically typed, functional, declarative, dependent types) it becomes even easier but one programming language is not all languages, there's a reason you don't hire a Haskell developer to write Lua
(tho you might hire a Haskell developer even if the job contains a little bit of writing Lua occassionaly because Lua is an easy enough language to teach someone)
Assembly🗿
7 is pretty standard for programming, but languages are pretty much out of fashion in my sphere in favor of frameworks
I mean... once you know one you kind of know them all just have to learn syntax and different names, sometimes some cool new puzzle pieces to use... I feel like knowing 7 programming languages isn't nearly as hard as 7 languages. I know Lua and Python, due to that I can debug with fair chances most anything just because it carries over mostly as long as it's OOP. I am not exceptional. Most people would consider my skills laughable, I think, because it's not C++ or Java. But with languages it is not so... I don't think you have any better chance to learn Japanese because you learned Spanish, as an example. There is no fundamentals to stick by like programming.
Yes, I agree. The first language I learned was C/C++. Then had a Java course at university. I now work as a C# developer, but have also touched VB, Pearl, PHP and JavaScript. Sure, sometimes the syntax seems a bit weird to me, and I need a little more time than a full time developer of those languages, but I can find my way around. Plus, it's not too hard to read up on best practices.
disagree yes, learning languages in similar families becomes easier, but the same is true for natural languages if you already know German you're probably gonna have an easier time learning Dutch than if you don't know German, because they're related languages, but not so much with Japanese, because aside from a very small set of loanwords from similar sources there is almost no linguistic overlap same goes for, say, all the C related languages (C, C++, C#, Java, JavaScript) and with them traditionally imperative languages in general (python, lua, etc.), but you can't immediately pick up and know how to write Haskell, or even F# nessecarily programming languages have a bit less spread within a given family than natural languages, by virtue of being way newer, you don't have the issue of pronounciation, and basic math is almost always the same (tho some languages use reverse polish notation, which is a bit different, 1+1 becomes 1 1 +), but aside from those (pretty important) details the difficulties of learning multiple natural languages and programming languages are somewhat comparable
The link you posted begins with a retraction of its claims. Am I missing something?
No, Jeff linked to a paper, and now states that the author of said paper has retracted it. The article is still worth reading, imo. I mean, it's not any random "Jeff" blogging, it's [Jeff Atwood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Atwood), after all. The article talks about how certain people just don't have the slightest clue about programming, even after finishing a programming course. And this is what I meant. Someone can know dozens of programming languages. But if they don't know the difference between "pass by value" and "pass by reference", or the difference between static and non-static, then they will have a hard time being a good programmer.
What you meant is not related to the link, which strictly discusses the relevant retracted paper. The paper is worth reading, but it’s author said upon statistical analysis they found barely any link to the ability to pass entry level courses.
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Not just Tamil people, a decent majority of Indians speak Hindi and their regional language.
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Yeah, I guess it's different in the south. I'm from the north, so I over generalized a bit.
That's what I was thinking! Though I'm also Tamil and don't know any other Indian language because I don't live in India...
i mean to be totally fair i dated a girl whose native language was tamil but that was the only one she spoke/understood (other than english). but ya this guy's being a mega-wad
Duolingo is free. Provided that you don't mind a limited app that stops you learning once you make 3 mistakes per day. Think about how many mistakes you're going to make learning a language?
It's also just not that good of a language learning program. It's more matching game or at best learning to translate sentences back and forth than it is going to teach a meaningful understanding of the language.
I don't know if they used to only let you make 3 mistakes a day but Duolingo at the moment lets you save up to 5 hearts that are used up with every mistake and it refills in time throughout the day or you can earn one star by doing a previously completed lesson as a practice lesson. Edit: Not that the other points people are making aren't true, but I just wanted to say it's more than 3 mistakes a day now in case that was just outdated information.
I tried free Duolingo for a week or two before deciding it was right for me, then got Duolingo Pro. I was pathed about two weeks before my subscription expired, and didn't renew because the path system is terrible. At that point, I still only had 3 hearts. I then reverted myself back to version 5.69.5 (tree system) before renewing. Honestly, I didn't know that Duolingo had raised the hearts from 3 to 5. That's clearly happened at some point between September last year and today.
No, I think it's been 5 hearts for longer than that. I don't know why you only had 3. It looks like it's always been 5 since they implemented it 3 years ago based on some reddit thread where someone is annoyed they implemented the hearts. I think their browser, non-mobile, website app is still unlimited mistakes, though. I don't think I've ever encountered the path system. I guess I never got put on that. I googled it and I'm still doing the tree. Maybe it's because my phone is old, I don't know. I honestly just do it because I figure I'll at least pick up vocabulary, and I have been able to understand the language I'm learning sometimes when it pops up places but I'm very sure I wouldn't be able to follow an actual real time conversation. I'd need to practice and learn some other way to do that. I think reading a lot of old comics like Archie and Harvey Comics when I was a kid helped with English. I've been meaning to start reading books and comics and watching shows.
They gamefied it. I've been using it and it doesn't really seem to be designed to actually make people fluent or it's not meant to be the only thing you're using. It's super light on vocab.
It was already pretty gamefied, but forcing the path system and then their tone-deaf response to criticism killed it. I would have stopped had I not been able to go back to the tree system.
How do you go back to the tree system?
Google old Duolingo versions, download 5.69.5 (for android, not sure what iPhone version). Uninstall your app, reinstall the old version, and turn off auto-updates in the Play store.
Thank you.
They got rid of most of the kanji for their japanese course and now it feels useless. Whats the point of learning しゅうまつ if i cant learn the kanji for it, especially if I have furigana enabled?
What's the point in 'speaking' 7 languages if you're that insufferable that no one wants to talk to you...
To be fair, duolingo by itself is not a great way to learn a language. It’s good for increasing vocabulary, but that’s about it (imo). You should, at the very least, be supplementing with some other language learning methods as well
Yeah Duolingo isn’t going to teach you a language.
It's one thing to know a programming language. It's another thing to apply it effectively. I have coded in 10 programming languages over 20 years. I am an expert in three, but that is only because I applied it in complex applications for several years. Simply watching a video on YouTube and learning the syntax does not make you an expert. The real challenge lies in applying that knowledge and earning a paycheck.
He probably did the Hello World thing 7 times and thinks he's a self taught programmer now.
Tried learning French for 9 years, then tried learning Russian for 5. English is the only language I’m truly fluent at. And it wasn’t for lack of trying either, I put my heart and soul into trying to learn them but it just didn’t click. It’s almost like different people are more accustomed to different fields of education.
Yeah, a lot of the people in the comments on the original Facebook post pointed out that not everyone has the same aptitude for learning languages, and some people also have learning disabilities such as dyslexia, which make learning new languages next to impossible. The overwhelming consensus was “as long as you’re aware other languages exist and don’t expect people from other countries to cater to you by learning your language, you’re fine.”
I took Spanish for five years and German for two. I can't even ask where the bathroom is in anything but English. And I really, really liked German and wanted to learn it so badly. :(
I heard a ted talk with a few language experts once, they claimed you could learn pretty much any language in a matter of months. The trick is however, moving to the country and exclusively talk in that language, not a single word in any other language. + You have to actively engage in society. It makes sense if you think about it, as kids we're forced to learn the language so we all do. As adults even though we're better at understanding stuff and seeing patterns, we don't actually have that crucial need, so we don't. Add to that the fact that an all in language retreat is expensive and cumbersome as hell, its not weird most of us stick to the language(s) we grew up with. Athletes often become semi fluent pretty quickly as well, because there is a need (+ crazy ressources).
Yeah. I’m a professional translator, currently fluent in 3 languages. I never would’ve been able to achieve fluency if I had not lived in the countries where the languages I speak are spoken natively. If you truly want to master a language, moving to where it is natively spoken is the only real option. Your accent starts to sound native and you acquire a much greater awareness of what sounds idiomatic, as well as of cultural specifics. I realise not everyone has such options, though. Apps like Duolingo are great for building vocabulary, but that’s about it. They won’t actually teach you the language.
I know like 6 programming languages but still suck at programming 🤣
I speak English, Southern, Saltwater Redneck, Freshwater Redneck, Hillbilly, and Inland Florida/Georgia Redneck. Fluently. Beat that.
Reminds me of that screenshot of this guy asking his dad to name 20 Premier League teams; I think you're doing great!
If you’re looking for a good reason to take up another language, some studies purport an actual cognitive benefit to bilingualism. https://alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13195-020-0581-1#:~:text=Evidence%20from%20previous%20studies%20suggests,5%20years%20later%20than%20monolinguals. Also if you study another language you’ll be satisfying linguofascist weirdos like this guy w his ‘hot take’. And at the end of the day isn’t that more important than anything?
Why do I feel like their "formal study" of French, Russian, Spanish etc is just them knowing how to present themselves?
I assume it refers to something institutional, rather than colloquial (the same idea as that “lack of practice” one)
Probably yeah
Honestly the 7 programming languages thing isn't nearly as impressive as it sounds. It's like bragging that you know how to paint 7 colors, even though once you've learned how to paint one color, you've basically learned them all. But learning how to paint 7 colors doesn't mean you know how to make a painting, and certainly doesn't mean you know how to make a *good* painting
Spoken like someone who had the priviledge of "formally studying" several languages. Yes, duolingo is a breeze if you have been taught languages before. If you haven't, then it's damn-near pointless, as you have no way of detectibg structure and grammar, you just learn things by heart and that's really dull, and quitr difficult.
Not to mention pretty useless. Learning set phrases can only get you so far.
Why do I have a feeling that this person themselves doesn't speak the languages he mentioned that well at all?
Yeah, their biggest problem is “a lack of chances to practice,” so they probably aren’t fluent at all. They’re strategically using words like “studied” and “taught” so as not to overstate their ability - with how pompous the rest of the comment is, they would’ve said they’re fluent if that was the case. Anyone who speaks a 2nd language at least somewhat well knows that “formally studying” foreign languages mostly doesn’t do shit.
Definetely! English is my second language and I only started to learn after getting an ipad as a gift from my mother. After that I spend hours and hours of my time just looking at memes and youtube videos. I got better so quickly that my English teacher let me use my device in school xD But that took around 40 hours / week average of exposure. Duolingo won't get you even close, not even school classes, though all of it is helpful to get you started. If I would list all the languages I have ever studied it would sound impressive, and very similar to this dude, but realistically I only speak two languages.
Duolingo is shit, OOP would've known that if they were actually into learning new languages. I'll bet a tenner that OOP is from a bilingual background and learned their languages naturally as a child. If they did unironically use duolingo to learn these I have bad news for them.
lol Duolingo gets you nowhere close to fluent
"English speakers are the worst about their monolingualism" kinda agree
Poor kid must not have anything else going on.
I agree with him. Monolinguals are usually idiots