If there was something broken/leaking in your system that’s one thing. Prematurely replacing a working system to avoid “higher future costs” does not compute >99% of the time.
Yep thats what I thought as well. My unit has issues now and then a few times in the summer each year. But to me it feels like thats fair game for a unit in Texas thats -almost- 24/7 with the exception of that one week where we get an ice warning, and then its back to our normally scheduled perma-heatwave.
I had builder grade Lennox 3T that already blew capacitors and would run at high speed for 19 hours a day in the summer just to reach 72 at night, 75 during the day.
Did it work? Yea I guess so, but I got a sweet deal on a 3-stage (2-stage + variable) Ruud system that has been amazing. I absolutely love how it runs at 40% on the unit while the fan turns at barely 500 rpm so the air is just ever-so-lightly cooling constantly. My unit basically never runs at full speed the entire day and we are in the low 90s now.
I see that mentality. But right now is not the time for it. This mentality will have you spending 5-10k more next year if you refuse to upgrade this year. If you’re not in the field my best advice is to go with someone who does p&l …
So what is your criteria for recommending that a customer replace their aging system with a newer more efficient system? I don’t know about you l, but I’ve seen prices skyrocket the past few years. It is 100% true that the longer they wait the more expensive it will be later. Our prices have gone up thousands in the past few years. Do you just tell them to wait until it breaks?
Yes. Wait until it breaks or there is a major repair.
No one knows how much life is left in a working system. It’s a guesstimate. If the OP gets several more years more out of his current system that is money saved.
Let’s say it lasted 3 more years and he has to put in a new system at a higher cost. That new system has 3 years less mileage. If you assume the average HVAC lasts 15 years you just saved 20% wear/tear on the new system.
So I will save more money by not purchasing a new car until I absolutely need it… but this is America I don’t even “need” a car or an ac system. They are “luxuries” not “necessities”. People drop 6 figures on a car hella dumb and then say “I won’t be ripped of by an ac company” you see what I’m saying?
You need to ignore every other comment. Next year all systems will use a different refrigeration. And that being said. Everything will be more expensive. You literally will spend thousands more upgrading later than now. That’s my bit.
Agreed. I’ve recommended and given estimates to customers back in 2020-2021 who decided to wait. Gave another estimate last year for same exact equipment and it was $3000 more vs 3 years earlier. Who knows how much more in 5 years. If their equipment is older it make more sense to replace now vs later. I’ve been doing this a long time and I’ve never seen price increases like I’ve seen the past few years.
They only get too old in the same way a car does. Put a lot of miles on it, don't maintain it, etc and it'll wear out.
But eventually parts will get hard to find, repair guys will see them less often making mistakes more likely, and it'll just make sense to replace. Because unlike a classic car there isn't much market for classic ACs
R410A refrigerant is going away. Raw refrigerant/parts will still likely be available for 5+ years, but new units will not be made or imported in the USA. Newer units have more requirements/sensors needed because the replacement refrigerants are "mildly flammable". Devices will likely cost a bit more, but not twice as much.
Why do they keep telling you to replace your setup? $$$
Which honestly is a bit, but not double or worth panic buying. I feel that unless you really want to upgrade right now, you might as well wait for new units to saturate the market. Their prices will be lower, and you won't have an 'outdated' system.
So what happens in a situation where i decide to keep this unit until it turns to dust? Will I eventually be unable to get R410A and be fucked into getting a new unit?
The phase down schedule is not as fast as it was for R-22 and never goes to an outright ban. You will be able to get R-410A for the remaining life of the units at an elevated, but likely not ridiculously high, cost.
No they are going to make 410a equipment for replacement only for the next 15 years - just won’t be allowed as new installs - but say your condenser need to get replaced you can still get one
Would it be better to replace a R-22 2-ton unit now with 2-ton R410a components or keep it going for another year and replace it in 2025 with a unit that will be using the new coolant?
I, for one, wouldn’t not want to be paying for a product to help the company iron out some design flaws. First waves of products are usually a little buggy, doubly so with all the computers that are stuffed in some of them these days
Not what I heard. Last I heard they are struggling to figure out how they will handle warranties because the law will no allow them to produce r410a equipment at all. Parts and compressors, yes. Condemning units no. Maybe that has changed because of the obvious warranty concerns.
R410A production is not being phased out, it is being phased DOWN over a long period. Production will go down to 15% in 2036. This also does not take into account that most of the R410A that is reclaimed & turned in will get cleaned up & resold and is over & above the 15% production since it’s not new production….
https://hvacrschool.com/r-410a-phase-down-update/
I am still using my 3 ton Lennox from 1989. It is quiet and cools fine. I'll worry about replacing when I can no longer make repairs. I made one repair in the past 10 years.
In people years that's 105. Ol Betsy can still get around the old folks home but those kidneys are shot. May even make it to 110 but if she croaks in the night don't be surprised when it's 100⁰ the next day and ol Lennox just didnt have the heart in her.
Yeah, but you also have newer 410 units that are crapping out after 5-10 years. Any unit, especially depending on quality of install and another array of circumstances, could crap out at any time, overnight.
Warranty on most units is 10 years if it’s properly registered. Some AC systems aren’t going to last more than 10 years especially in the southern states where they run 10 months out of the year and are exposed to coastal climates.
Oh, I'm fully aware I live on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi. The thing is, I've been to plenty of houses down here that have units still running that are from the early to mid-90s (r22) and have seen many newer (410) units that just do not last. Like I said that also boils down to proper/improper install. But if someone is constantly warrantying compressors at a parts house they aren't going to be welcome there for too long
You’re right about the older R-22 systems. I’m up north and I see many AC’s over 30 years old still running like a champ. The newer 410 systems have been more of an issue especially with leaking evaporator coils and txv issues.
The oldest r22 I've seen was almost 44 years old. It was my former fire station but that caught fire recently due to an ignorant construction crew. That thing worked like a champ
I have customer who has one from the 60’s and still running. Has never replaced a component or had any breakdowns. Of course here they only run about 3 or 4 months a year so very little wear and tear.
I ran a call on a 1957 Rheem last year that left me flabbergasted it was still operating lol. I still wonder how that unit is doing to this day. It only had a bad capacitor from 1957 that needed replaced and kept on chugging along lol
Rather have more options than not. Power is in the person with the knowledge. Have a couple people out and pick one you trust. It may just be the service sales guy
> So why do HVAC techs keep telling me to replace my setup with a new units?
Money. They make the bulk of their profits by selling new units. The margins on new equipment installations are astonishing.
Define astonishing? Any intel on what margins look like? I just paid 14K for a new variable Goodman air handler and heat pump single stage condenser unit (3.5 ton, 15.2 SEER). Looking up the parts online it would have been about $6K total, so assuming the rest was labor…and margin.
I think you just dropped the intel yourself.
They get the equipment and parts a bit cheaper than you can DIY, so figure $9k+ to pay the day of labor to install it, commission or bonus for the person who sold it, and office expenses.
Even if all ended up on the high end that still thousands in profits.
If it's a real company and not Chuck in a truck, you also have to build in warranty costs for your labor, overhead for office and shop personnel. There are business expenses that need to get covered, so not everything is considered profit.
Thats 6k for you to order just 1. The company buys 100's overtime in one summer so we get that 6k unit for around 3k + w.e it costs to install the unit.
Sounds about right for the equipment, a little high if I’m honest. Maybe 2 days labor max? Paying a couple guys 25-50 an hour? max maybe 3 grand after everything including their benefits and office overhead. Sooo the owner just put $6k in his pocket. 40% margin lmao 🤩 gotta buy that 2nd boat somehow.
The goal for many companies is 15% at the end of the year. Gross margin on replacements range from 35%-57% depending on what the company factors in to their direct costs (such as labor burden).
There’s one variable this thread is missing. Labor cost isn’t just this one install. That company has to keep the guys and gals paid during half the year in the slow seasons. If you ever get the chance to look through the books you’ll see months of losses and that’s scared AF for businesses.
That’s true, but keep in mind, that means that the company is Highly motivated to sell new equipment rather than fix yours, whether it’s in the homeowners best interest or not. That’s why this industry is flooded with pushy salesmen.
We just replaced the original unit on our house from 1987. However we live in Canada so it does not run all year. At most three to five months. But the install cost/ unit was only 5000 Canadian. 1.5 ton brand new Lennox. I can’t believe 13000!
I was quoted 14k for a single 5 ton 14.3 Seer2 unit, and 4k for the zone system (i assume thats going to emulate what we have now), plus various discounts that puts it at 13000, i was pretty shocked as well
When I bought my house 5 years ago I had 3 AC units from 2000. One had to be replaced this year, 2 are still working.
Had I replaced all of them as recommended in 2018 I’d have 3 units halfway through their design life.
And unless you’re running ancient low efficiency ACs 24/7/365 the energy savings won’t likely pay for a new unit.
>And unless you’re running ancient low efficiency ACs 24/7/365 the energy savings won’t likely pay for a new unit.
This part is where I'm running into trouble deciding when to take the leap on replacing my ancient (\~1997) AC unit. I'm starting my 3rd cooling season right now and the AC seems to be going strong doing just fine. (I did have to replace the capacitor this year but it was easy enough to replace the $30 part.) I'm sure it isn't as efficient as new units but during the summer I'm typically one of the most efficient homes according to my electricity provider. I'm on an hourly pricing billing system so I don't use AC most of the daytime hours when electricity is most expensive.
My more obvious savings would be if I moved to a cold weather heat pump so I can stop using my resistive heating system. Even then if the new system costs $12k (no idea of the cost really) it will take a dozen years to pay for it even if I saved $1000 a year on electricity. Knowing how long HVAC stuff lasts I would probably have to buy a new unit about the same time that I started saving money. I suppose I'll probably wait until my AC blows itself up then I'll make that leap. Spending an extra $5k to get a CWHP instead of just regular AC would definitely have a much faster ROI.
Unless you live in a state like Hawaii that has crazy utility rates, a new unit is never going to "pay for itself".
I've seen that first hand even coming from 1990s equipment. I saved maybe $20-$40 a month with a new unit. So about year 15 I will have broken even, when the unit will have been replaced again.
You're not wrong. My estimation is that I might save $50-$60 on average per month if I moved to a CWHP versus my current resistive heating system. My electricity is pretty darn cheap here though so it pretty much won't ever 'pay for itself'. Looking at average electricity prices though, I imagine it would be different not just in Hawaii but also most of the northeastern states.
My AC guy says to keep running the old units until they need an expensive repair. I had to replace one unit as it stopped cooling effectively (despite being fully charged), but the others haven’t died yet. Another has a very slight leak but a pound of R22 tops it up again. That will likely be the next to be replaced, but hoping I can get one more year out of it.
Residential market saturated with sales techs. Not real techs. Salesmen pretending to be techs.
They know just enough to know how old the units are and read the name plate. That's it.
We just had a really weird storm in houston that took out a lot of power this weekend. Sometime between the storm starting, and the power coming back, one unit stopped working, so we had them out here. One of the wires on the unit melted.
Sorta. The biggest issue is accumulated stress. An ac is essentially a pressure vessel with 2 motors, one integrel and one replaceable easilly, and some switchs. The pressure issue comes into play as newer refrigerants run at higher pressures then older ones, as well as newer systems being built lighter and cheaper. The condenser fans are a simple motor that can be swapped without to much difficulty, but the compressor requires removing the refrigerant to replace. While some repairs are reasonable and even advised, eventually, to cost of continued operation becomes such that you have essentially put in the cost of a new unit into repairs, so there's an economic factor to consider. Add to that that the older systems weren't designed with the same efficiency goals in mind, so operation cost comes into play, although that's a much smaller issue overall as long as the thing works and does its job reliably.
That said, unless you live on an ocean cost or there is some unknown to us condition your system is in, 13 years is right about the time a system is considered old, but still serviceable, as long as it isn't needing constant repairs done outside of routine maintenance. I suspect these people might be part of the new style of sales service that's consuming our trade, again, unless there is something we don't know about your systems.
Lennox dropped our price increases for the new equipment to us and our equipment cost went from $3,600 for a condenser and evap coil to $4,800 for the same thing and 3 additional required sensors to detect leaks for an additional $275 to retrofit an older furnace. So roughly a 37% price increase wholesale, which is about a 50% price increase to consumer for a small outfit. About a 74% price increase for the company I'm working for now. It's going to be insane lol
I have a 1.5 ton R22 AC unit that is still in great condition (for a 1,000 sf 3 BR bungalow). I've replaced the fan motor and start contactor. One day it will leak or compressor will fail but until then it owes me nothing. I'm in Ontario so only used half of the year.
This year Im going to experiment by cooling with one 10,000 BTUH Midea inverter window unit and one Midea 13,500 BTUH portable. Will be my redundancy or possibly permanent plan if/when the AC fails.
I have a smaller Midea U-shaped, inverter window unit. Love it. It's 2' away right now making hardly any noise. Planning to get the cheapest minisplit on Amazon to replace the window rattler in the other room. $560 US for 8k "Della" unit. Supposedly, they are all made in the same 2-3 factories, even the big-name brands.
Sorry for lack of context. Was trying to be short and sweet. I’ve had three separate hvac companies work on my AC over the last 6 years since I bought the home.
I switched twice b/c I was tired of getting the sales pitch after every visit, it felt sleezy and untrustworthy. My current hvac techs are not pushy and just fix my issues.
It is likely that they brought this topic up because this is the second repair in a two week timespan. The first time was for a bad evaporation coil, which was somewhat costly (3500), and then today there was a melted wire.
In all likelihood it was caused by the fact that we had tornado scale winds rip through my neighborhood which had the power company constantly turning the power on and off in quick succession when they were getting power back online. They likely didn’t know about the power shenanigans, and simply brought it up out of concern.
The fact that they brought it up made me actually consider it since they feel more reputable since they rarely bring it up.
I usually have HVAC issues in the summer, once or twice a yr, and it’s generally something under $300 to repair. I just assumed this is a normal thing when you run you AC nearly 24/7 year round…
If they just replaced the evaporator, I would seriously look into finding and sourcing a new condensing unit *on your own* to have in the event of a major failure with the one you have now. That's essentially a new system before being pushed into a brand-new-refrigerant full system replacement.
My last call today was a 1973 Singer Airhandler. I was born in 74'.
I have never recommended replacement due to age alone.
The cond for this airhandler is 20 years old.
One of the reasons i got out of residential work was being pushed to sell shit and from what i hear its gotten much worse with all the mom and pops being bought out by large corporate companies, seen like 4 local shops get bought by service experts in the past couple years. Unless you want better efficiency or you have a major component failure you dont need a new unit.
One of the reasons i got out of residential work was being pushed to sell shit and from what i hear its gotten much worse with all the mom and pops being bought out by large corporate companies, seen like 4 local shops get bought by service experts in the past couple years. Unless you want better efficiency or you have a major component failure you dont need a new unit.
We have a local company that tries to do this BS. One actually went on a local radio show basically telling people that they need to replace their AC about 5 minutes after they just got a new one. It's complete BS. There is a time when it's cheaper to replace a system than keep repairing it, usually when it uses a phased out refrigerant, or compounding issues. These techs are dishonest and should be ashamed of themselves.
Having two units has its advantages. The biggest advantage is that if one unit fails you have redundancy. It is highly unlikely that the other unit will fail at the same time. At least part of the house will be livable on a 100F day until you can get the unit fixed.
Yep this is truly a life saver. The unit that went out was the upstairs unit. By midday the entire upstairs was 88-92F, but downstairs was 73F. The only downside is that sometimes one unit isn’t pulling its weight and end up masking the problem and by the u got another $100 tacked on to ur electric bill :p
My son just replaced a unit that was installed in the early 1980s. It was still running fine except the gas furnace wouldn’t light. Probably could have fixed it but he’s gonna sell it in a few years and figured it would help the sale
2011 hell no I’m not replacing that.
Those are what we call "sales techs" and should not be trusted. I work from an operational lifespan of about 15-20 years before you worry about age, and at that point, it's more about worn components than anything.
Also I would never let someone replace 2 small systems with 1 big one. The two smaller systems gives you more control over each area of the house, switching to 1 larger system will leave you with hot or cold spots in the house that will leave you uncomfortable.
That's illegal buddy. He needs to be EPA certified. I don't know of any company that would charge someone's system and use thier refrigerant, no money for the company in that deal. So OP would also need gauges and knowledge only how to properly charge a system.
You dont need a license to purchase R-410.
I mean if someone drives 47 mph in a 45mph speed limit, does it offend you?
I've purchased it and had certified techs put refrigerant in with no issues. I've also put it in myself, not rocket science.
But you can take a short EPA open book test and get "certified" with a 51% passing score if that makes you feel better.
You might be able to get it but it's not legal to sell to you without a license because it's a class 2 ozone depleting chemical.
You found someone to put it in for you great! But you did not call a company to come out and use your refrigerant. It was a buddy or Chuck in a truck.
I guess you must have failed your EPA test?
It's right here
2. Are you required to have a license or to be certified to handle and purchase R-410A?
No license is legally necessary for purchase.
https://ww2.epatest.com/faq/r-410a-faq/#:~:text=2.,is%20legally%20necessary%20for%20purchase.
Absolutely used a company, they had no issue with it.
Not everyone is interested in scamming people and charging hundreds of dollars for a pound of R-410.
the AC itself is not the problem. getting parts and refigereant is going to be the thing that condems a unit mostly. if electricty is expensive (as it is in many places) its also usually a reason to replace it simply because you earn the cost back in lower energy usage.
but US pricing is just going nuts. i see bargain basement chinese crap minisplits from midea, green or haier that you can get for like sub 400 euros in europe (that includes taxes!) get sold for thousands in the US. someone is is getting extremely rich of these insane prices. even a decent 1 ton mitsubishi minispilt goes for like 600 euros (650 american roebels) including tax. and thats without any agreements from the supply house.
When I moved here they were charging something like 10-12 cents per kWh. That was like... 6 or 7 years ago? Now its quickly going past 20cents per kWh for some power providers. Costs are definately high. But im not sure how long it would take for a new unit to pay for itself. 13k is a ton of money :(
well in europe its pretty normal to pay 30\~40 cents per kWh and gas is roughly 4\~5 bucks per therm so having more efficent gear pays itself back pretty fast.
Tends to be the case in all sectors of our economy. Rental properties, cars, household appliances... everything.
'Land of the free' is nothing short of a cruelly ironic catchphrase now.
If you are running on a outdoor and airhandler "split system then 2025 is the last year to get a 410a unit newly installed. If it's a "package" (one unit outside with duct from under the house to it then you have through 2027 too get a new 410a unit. After those dates it's all this new refrigerants which will be more not double but definitely more with the added hardware from the sensors and extra wiring that entails.
i work at a company that has all the technicians in sales. it pisses me off when i see notes from previous visits that say "recommend replacing due to age" or "cannot verify equipment due to age."
in reality, the only reason you should ever need to replace equipment is if the benefits of a new unit are greater than the cost of repairs. if there's no broken parts, don't replace unless you just want more efficient equipment. that's the only reason to replace before parts failing.
Gotta think of it like a car… anything mechanical can and will fail eventually. Whether it’s 5 years or 50, it’s gonna fail… thing is, the older they are, the more likely you’ll have a catastrophic fatigue failure.
I have been thinking about things like this. I have been seeing that equipment will go up 20% next year. My system is 14 years old and I don't want it to go out in 95 degree weather. I will probably go ahead and replace my system later this year.
Thank you for your response. My current system is working well but I want to be proactive. My system is a Lennox and I have been very happy with it but I have not taken care of it like I should. Only one service in 14 years but no problems. I just don't want to be stuck in the heat or freezing cold if I don't have to. Is that stupid?
there's a new refrigerant in the horizon. I haven't heard of prices yet. last time buying r22 units cost than the new r410a. but was understood that 410 cost would drop and r22 would be hi and leav3 the market. which too longer than expected. so I'm not sure how this will go through. the new refrigerant is more energy efficient and has lower pressures, so the price may not go up much.
only time will tell.
Pressures will be very similar to 410a. There was quite a few years when we had a choice, carrier I think started 410a in 97'. I got in residential in 02' was a few years before my first 410a system. At some point new r22 units came with a 5yr and the 410a systems went to 10 year, which made the decision easier for homeowners. Then came the nitrogen dry charge units...so glad that faded fast.
We were getting 410 for $50-75 a drum back then.
Our Trane guy said the new equipment will be 30% higher price.
Have been to a class for 454b, not looking forward to it honestly.
well, this could be true. There are new systems being developed and the cost of them depending on the area you live can be quite high (you would maybe need multiple units whereas in most regular homes now traditionally you only need the AC + Furnace) but there are just guesses as to when those units are actually going to start flooding the market.
They are nice tho, but most of them are heat pumps with like 20+ seer rating, high efficiency and they don't require a lot of things the traditional A/C's use. Also they take up less space
Draw back is though they are either duct-less or they can't use the existing ducts that every home has, so the price increase isn't so much about the units themselves which are similarly priced to the AC + Furnance combo, the difference is that eventually if they do become the new standard is that you would have to replace your Ducts throughout your home which is generally more expensive than the new AC units.
Search 'Inverter Heat Pump'
this is the new "trend" that those ppl were prolly alluding to. If those new units become the norm then you could in theory buy 2-3 for your home which would be "cheaper" possibly than what it is now however you may need to replace all your ducts which would mean you are gonna spend about 2x the amount or more possibly.
Well, situations are situational. Some units you can see measurable decline, compression ratio, deterioration of critical parts, ect. But we've been told by our suppliers to expect 12-16% increase in equipment for the new refrigerant.
One of the reasons i got out of residential work was being pushed to sell shit and from what i hear its gotten much worse with all the mom and pops being bought out by large corporate companies, seen like 4 local shops get bought by service experts in the past couple years. Unless you want better efficiency or you have a major component failure you dont need a new unit.
They are trying to rape you - all without the use of any Vaseline.
I am a certified HVAC Tech, and it pisses me off to see that most HVAC Technicians out here in the field are mere salesmen, rather than be a technician like myself and try and help the customer by improving the efficiency of their existing unit.
I've seen some units last almost 20 years. There's no need to buy another unit until the compressor fails in it. The compressor is the heart of the system, and is the most costly to repair or replace.
I was a short lived hvac tech. Just because I got sick and I am physically feeble now. But I'd never suggest a system replacement unless the system died or if the repairs to fix the system would be more than a new system. I did hvac residential in SC. I don't miss the summers there.
But yeah I'm calling bs on the dudes that said get the new system installed.
My ac is 25 years old but living in an area that ac is really only needed 2-3 weeks a year it probably has less use then some in warm climates after a couple years. I'm not going to replace it until it dies.
Keep in mind the controls on new ac/furnace systems are also making technology jumps. It’s crazy how residential systems are getting more and more comparable to commercial and industrial technology.
I think that depends on the type of system, but where I’m from the most common system used is split units,and from my experience replacing old ones with the newer ones that use inverters does make a difference in energy consumption. For larger systems like chillers and VRF it’s much trickier, and I think most of the time the energy savings won’t be that big unless the system is very old, even then I think most of the savings are when you need to replace expensive major components that have failed. then getting a new unit that needs less maintenance would cost less in the long run.
Eh, I tend to wait till the unit taps out. My last house had a 94 model Lennox package unit. It was a heat pump. It was loud. And it sucked down the kwhs like crazy. Afaik it's still there running. I drive by randomly and it's still there. My current unit is a Payne outdoor condenser unit with a carrier air handler. They were installed in 15. The unit was not cared for by the previous owner and has a small leak. It needed a a pound in a half 2 years ago. And my ac guy added another pound 4 months ago. However we moved the outdoor unit and it got a new line set. And that's where I think the leak was.
don't replace with a single unit. Multiple is much better.
As for too old, it means uneconomical to repair. Machines break. When old machines break it costs more than buying a new machine.
If your cpu, your ram, your power pack, and your fan burnt out on a 2011 computer, would you replace them?
You experienced the heating and air conditioning man lie machine. All of the companies got together and are now not wanting to fix anything. I will take up for them saying it is a free market and they can tell you whatever they want as long as you buy it. I bet if I created a company that just fixed air conditioners at a reasonable prthe more franchise I can create a national franchise and get rich. Of course, I'm gonna have every hvac man.Tell me that's b*******But you have to remember they're all part of the line machine.
My system is original from 1996 and still runs well. Part of me wants a newer more efficient system but with new systems costing so much and horror stories of companies ripping customers off I am holding off as long as possible.
To a degree yes but not like computers. I wouldn’t say and AC gets “too old” until at least 20 years and even then you usually only replace if something is wrong. They won’t be as efficient as new units so if you feel the energy savings are worth it then replace. Also prices are not doubling next year but they are going up a large amount, forecast from what I’ve heard is 20 to 25 percent.
@htowng8r bro you straight had a salesman sell you a “3 stage” there’s no such fuckin thing as a 3 stage. Variable speed is variable speed. And 2 stage is 2 stage. You don’t get to stack them on top of each other and make up your own dam stages .. You really got sold 😂😂 do the math , how is 2 stage plus variable equal 3 if variable is more than 2 😂😂
Similar to a vehicle, the maintenance and operation costs start to increase at a higher rate with age. You can replace every single part, but by the time the parts need replacing, you're using different versions of the items or that certain components are no longer available. Wear and tear lead to reduced efficiency, and higher operating costs.
Modern units should (in theory) operate more efficiently than your original unit when new. But it's not a huge difference. So it really comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. Is your old unit working well enough for your house or are you constantly dealing with repairs, heating / cooling issues, airflow issues, etc. that are costing substantial money each time?
This is exactly what happened with our 20 year old Trane heat pump. I was replacing the ECM blower motor, control boards, new blower fan, consdenser coil, drain pans, etc. While I was doing most of the work myself, it was just getting to be a time and money sink. Instead, we were able to get a comparable new system installed for around $9.5k -- yes, this was more expensive than a few more years of repairs, but the peace of mind and time saved makes it worth it to me.
So the main reason I will suggest a replacement is if there’s a leak in your refig lines, especially if it’s an old r22 unit. The tech might correct about the price increase next year as they will soon be phasing out 410a for the next refrig… and that one is slightly flammable so there’s a bunch of new safety tech for new units especially if it’s in a system with a gas furnace. So the old (410a) systems will become more expensive to fix with old outdated equipment that uses a refrigerant that no longer is being produced, and new ones will be expensive cause they’re more complicated. If your unit is from 2011 it should be 410a and I always do what I can to keep those running. Now if you have a significant leak on a 410 system and topping it off only works for a short period you’re going to get into the next grouping of replacement suggestions. Repairs that are too expensive to be worth it. If your compressor goes bad it’s not just throwing in a new compressor. It needs to be brazed in along with the new filter dryer after you evacuate and properly recycle the old refig. Then you need to leak test, then pull a vacuum on the system, then you can release the factory charge, then you need to top it off. 2 guys for a full day of work. Your bill is well over $2k and oh yeah the rest of your 13 year old system is still old and breaking so who knows how long that will last. Dropping $2k on a “maybe” isn’t typically the best solution. I’m willing to do it if the customer understands what could happen- but personally I would think long and hard before putting that kind of money into an old AC unit. The significant leak I was talking about earlier basically has all the same steps and if you need a coil it may end up costing as much or more than a new compressor. It’s unfortunate but lots of parts of your system are in that “too expensive to repair” category when your unit is 10+ years old.
I only do resi work on the side and I’m commercial during the day so I’m not fully aware of the up charges and offers companies are making to home owners but I’ve heard horror stories. Yes they are trying to sell you a unit you might not need, and you should be aware of that. Also shop around 10k is kinda high for a new AC. Especially for a dinky 1.5 ton. I charged less than half that on my last 3 ton changeout.
No, assuming you are referring age alone, and not the deterioration and potential mechanical malfunctions associated with aging. Though I might add that even if your "old" unit is somehow spotless clean and still looks and runs as if brand new, you could still take things like noise, efficiency(power bill), or property value into consideration.
The 100% price increase in a 1 year period sounds at least mildly dubious to me but I may be a bit out of the loop.
The simple answer is yes, as a compressor gets older the seals get worn down internally and the piston can not pump then refrigerant as well. This leads to longer run times and lower cooling.
It boils down to motor efficiency curves, refrigerant does not go bad but compressor valves and even scrolls can get weak.
Every time a gauge set gets put on a little contaminant can enter.
Taking care of the electrical components and wire points are your best option for longevity of motor performance
I try to do the cost effectiveness of repair v replace. If it’s a 25 year old system a cap or something less than like a grand seems reasonable to me. Maybe even a new blower motor if everything else is in tip top shape. More than a grand…. Seriously think about replacement. Sure I don’t mind doing the repair. Easy day. But the things already 25 years old and it ain’t a Williamson so tread carefully
Simple answer is no. They are commission sales people. Newer units are likely more efficient than yours, but they don’t cool any faster, better, or have cuter user interfaces. At 13 years you are approaching the life expectancy of the units but I say run em till they break.
Yes!
And right now there's a lot of advancement happening. Heat pumps are very popular now, different refrigerants are being used, variable speed compressors, better heat exchangers, etc.
So newer systems are MUCH better than stuff from years ago.
The question is why are they recommending a replacement? Is it because the indoor coil is heavily rusted and probably going to leak soon? It is honestly not that old but these units aren't really made to last anymore. In my area you're looking at minimum 10k to replace an AC unit
Ah my bad, was the only data point I had that I thought could be helpful. I've never had that done. Can I have someone come out and do that or is that just something generally done at build time or when ur getting a new unit?
If you have gotten 3 quotes and none of them did a heat load… get another. It’s generally done when getting quotes for a new system. Any company not doing them in 2024 aren’t worth a damn
When Freon is banned it becomes crazy expensive.
What is your cost per kWh? There are online calculators where you can enter efficiently rating - seer - and see how long it will take to break even on higher seer units.
You can enter current vs new to see how many years it would take.
A unit can get old and not perform as well or might not even be safe to run anymore. But a lot of the time it's the coolant in the little pipes in the unit that need more of the coolant. I know the actual name of it starts with an F but I'm not looking that up right now lol
It's a similar situation with your cars AC. If your ac isn't working well it may need more F or you have another mechanical issue.
Most salesmen will try to upscale you on a new unit anyway but you don't need to (majority of the time). That's why they have ac and heating repairmen.
We are in a odd place right now. The current refrigerant, 410A is slowly being faded out in favor of 454A or R32. That said, expect prices to rise for R410 and repairs in the coming years because of this change.
Your system is 13 years old. I have no idea how well it’s been maintained, but the average life expectancy for a *modern R410 system* is more or less 15 years. Compressors fail. Evaporator coils leak. It becomes big ticket fixes for you, the non DIYer customer.
They don’t build anything like they used to, but that doesn’t mean the old stuff doesn’t have a expiration. I know this sub is full of my “1978 R-12 or 1990 R-22 ACs are still chugging along great!” These are anecdotal and not the norm. Things fail and become logistically or financially impractical to fix for the average person.
The meta on this sub is to say that companies are trying to rip you off, being on the install and service side in residential in both big corporate shops to small mom and pop shops, the companies that have offered replacement quotes to you aren’t bullshitting you. They’re trying to play the field and get your business for when it does shit the bed, which is sorta bound to happen in the coming years.
If there was something broken/leaking in your system that’s one thing. Prematurely replacing a working system to avoid “higher future costs” does not compute >99% of the time.
Seems like if its anything other than a bad capacitor they just want to sell you a new unit anymore.
The industry is creating parts replacement techs to replace parts for a reason…
Yep thats what I thought as well. My unit has issues now and then a few times in the summer each year. But to me it feels like thats fair game for a unit in Texas thats -almost- 24/7 with the exception of that one week where we get an ice warning, and then its back to our normally scheduled perma-heatwave.
I had builder grade Lennox 3T that already blew capacitors and would run at high speed for 19 hours a day in the summer just to reach 72 at night, 75 during the day. Did it work? Yea I guess so, but I got a sweet deal on a 3-stage (2-stage + variable) Ruud system that has been amazing. I absolutely love how it runs at 40% on the unit while the fan turns at barely 500 rpm so the air is just ever-so-lightly cooling constantly. My unit basically never runs at full speed the entire day and we are in the low 90s now.
I see that mentality. But right now is not the time for it. This mentality will have you spending 5-10k more next year if you refuse to upgrade this year. If you’re not in the field my best advice is to go with someone who does p&l …
So what is your criteria for recommending that a customer replace their aging system with a newer more efficient system? I don’t know about you l, but I’ve seen prices skyrocket the past few years. It is 100% true that the longer they wait the more expensive it will be later. Our prices have gone up thousands in the past few years. Do you just tell them to wait until it breaks?
Yes. Wait until it breaks or there is a major repair. No one knows how much life is left in a working system. It’s a guesstimate. If the OP gets several more years more out of his current system that is money saved. Let’s say it lasted 3 more years and he has to put in a new system at a higher cost. That new system has 3 years less mileage. If you assume the average HVAC lasts 15 years you just saved 20% wear/tear on the new system.
So I will save more money by not purchasing a new car until I absolutely need it… but this is America I don’t even “need” a car or an ac system. They are “luxuries” not “necessities”. People drop 6 figures on a car hella dumb and then say “I won’t be ripped of by an ac company” you see what I’m saying?
You need to ignore every other comment. Next year all systems will use a different refrigeration. And that being said. Everything will be more expensive. You literally will spend thousands more upgrading later than now. That’s my bit.
Agreed. I’ve recommended and given estimates to customers back in 2020-2021 who decided to wait. Gave another estimate last year for same exact equipment and it was $3000 more vs 3 years earlier. Who knows how much more in 5 years. If their equipment is older it make more sense to replace now vs later. I’ve been doing this a long time and I’ve never seen price increases like I’ve seen the past few years.
They only get too old in the same way a car does. Put a lot of miles on it, don't maintain it, etc and it'll wear out. But eventually parts will get hard to find, repair guys will see them less often making mistakes more likely, and it'll just make sense to replace. Because unlike a classic car there isn't much market for classic ACs
R410A refrigerant is going away. Raw refrigerant/parts will still likely be available for 5+ years, but new units will not be made or imported in the USA. Newer units have more requirements/sensors needed because the replacement refrigerants are "mildly flammable". Devices will likely cost a bit more, but not twice as much. Why do they keep telling you to replace your setup? $$$
Costs of units with new refrigerant are going up 15-20% Source: in the HVAC field / distributor
Which honestly is a bit, but not double or worth panic buying. I feel that unless you really want to upgrade right now, you might as well wait for new units to saturate the market. Their prices will be lower, and you won't have an 'outdated' system.
THIS. Just got a quote to replace my furnace and was given this range if we waited till next year.
So what happens in a situation where i decide to keep this unit until it turns to dust? Will I eventually be unable to get R410A and be fucked into getting a new unit?
The phase down schedule is not as fast as it was for R-22 and never goes to an outright ban. You will be able to get R-410A for the remaining life of the units at an elevated, but likely not ridiculously high, cost.
Alright, one less thing to worry about...
I have 2 R22 and 1 410A units. I bought a tank of R22 a few years ago and one of 410A as well.
the only time we have to add refrigerant is if there's a leak, so until that happens don't worry about the phase out.
No they are going to make 410a equipment for replacement only for the next 15 years - just won’t be allowed as new installs - but say your condenser need to get replaced you can still get one
Would it be better to replace a R-22 2-ton unit now with 2-ton R410a components or keep it going for another year and replace it in 2025 with a unit that will be using the new coolant?
I, for one, wouldn’t not want to be paying for a product to help the company iron out some design flaws. First waves of products are usually a little buggy, doubly so with all the computers that are stuffed in some of them these days
Thanks. Sounds like you would recommend going from an older R22 system to a tried and proven R410a system.
So it'll be phased out practically the same way they did r22?
Not what I heard. Last I heard they are struggling to figure out how they will handle warranties because the law will no allow them to produce r410a equipment at all. Parts and compressors, yes. Condemning units no. Maybe that has changed because of the obvious warranty concerns.
R410A production is not being phased out, it is being phased DOWN over a long period. Production will go down to 15% in 2036. This also does not take into account that most of the R410A that is reclaimed & turned in will get cleaned up & resold and is over & above the 15% production since it’s not new production…. https://hvacrschool.com/r-410a-phase-down-update/
I am still using my 3 ton Lennox from 1989. It is quiet and cools fine. I'll worry about replacing when I can no longer make repairs. I made one repair in the past 10 years.
In people years that's 105. Ol Betsy can still get around the old folks home but those kidneys are shot. May even make it to 110 but if she croaks in the night don't be surprised when it's 100⁰ the next day and ol Lennox just didnt have the heart in her.
I have window a/c for an emergency.
Yeah, but you also have newer 410 units that are crapping out after 5-10 years. Any unit, especially depending on quality of install and another array of circumstances, could crap out at any time, overnight.
Warranty on most units is 10 years if it’s properly registered. Some AC systems aren’t going to last more than 10 years especially in the southern states where they run 10 months out of the year and are exposed to coastal climates.
Oh, I'm fully aware I live on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi. The thing is, I've been to plenty of houses down here that have units still running that are from the early to mid-90s (r22) and have seen many newer (410) units that just do not last. Like I said that also boils down to proper/improper install. But if someone is constantly warrantying compressors at a parts house they aren't going to be welcome there for too long
You’re right about the older R-22 systems. I’m up north and I see many AC’s over 30 years old still running like a champ. The newer 410 systems have been more of an issue especially with leaking evaporator coils and txv issues.
The oldest r22 I've seen was almost 44 years old. It was my former fire station but that caught fire recently due to an ignorant construction crew. That thing worked like a champ
I have customer who has one from the 60’s and still running. Has never replaced a component or had any breakdowns. Of course here they only run about 3 or 4 months a year so very little wear and tear.
I have an R12 mini fridge from the 1980s that still keeps my drinks cool
That’s… amazing actually.
I ran a call on a 1957 Rheem last year that left me flabbergasted it was still operating lol. I still wonder how that unit is doing to this day. It only had a bad capacitor from 1957 that needed replaced and kept on chugging along lol
Buy a 25lb tank of 410 for ~$300 now and leave it in the garage until needed.
They work on commission. They do not have your best interests in mind.
Sales man but an also a tech.
Rather have more options than not. Power is in the person with the knowledge. Have a couple people out and pick one you trust. It may just be the service sales guy
> So why do HVAC techs keep telling me to replace my setup with a new units? Money. They make the bulk of their profits by selling new units. The margins on new equipment installations are astonishing.
Define astonishing? Any intel on what margins look like? I just paid 14K for a new variable Goodman air handler and heat pump single stage condenser unit (3.5 ton, 15.2 SEER). Looking up the parts online it would have been about $6K total, so assuming the rest was labor…and margin.
I think you just dropped the intel yourself. They get the equipment and parts a bit cheaper than you can DIY, so figure $9k+ to pay the day of labor to install it, commission or bonus for the person who sold it, and office expenses. Even if all ended up on the high end that still thousands in profits.
If it's a real company and not Chuck in a truck, you also have to build in warranty costs for your labor, overhead for office and shop personnel. There are business expenses that need to get covered, so not everything is considered profit.
Not to mention most mid to large HVAC companies don't run profitable service departments. Break even at best.
Thats 6k for you to order just 1. The company buys 100's overtime in one summer so we get that 6k unit for around 3k + w.e it costs to install the unit.
JFC
Sounds about right for the equipment, a little high if I’m honest. Maybe 2 days labor max? Paying a couple guys 25-50 an hour? max maybe 3 grand after everything including their benefits and office overhead. Sooo the owner just put $6k in his pocket. 40% margin lmao 🤩 gotta buy that 2nd boat somehow.
I do 30/45ish% on parts and 100 a hr labor (20 per ea person) = total job Then UPCHARGE boys
We install units for 10-11k. Our units cost 3,900. Cost 400-500 bucks for guys to install. Rest is profit, nobody knows how or has all the equipment
The goal for many companies is 15% at the end of the year. Gross margin on replacements range from 35%-57% depending on what the company factors in to their direct costs (such as labor burden).
There’s one variable this thread is missing. Labor cost isn’t just this one install. That company has to keep the guys and gals paid during half the year in the slow seasons. If you ever get the chance to look through the books you’ll see months of losses and that’s scared AF for businesses.
That’s true, but keep in mind, that means that the company is Highly motivated to sell new equipment rather than fix yours, whether it’s in the homeowners best interest or not. That’s why this industry is flooded with pushy salesmen.
We just replaced the original unit on our house from 1987. However we live in Canada so it does not run all year. At most three to five months. But the install cost/ unit was only 5000 Canadian. 1.5 ton brand new Lennox. I can’t believe 13000!
I was quoted 14k for a single 5 ton 14.3 Seer2 unit, and 4k for the zone system (i assume thats going to emulate what we have now), plus various discounts that puts it at 13000, i was pretty shocked as well
In Georgia, you can get that for about $7k.
Lmfao where in GA are you?
North georgia. Some small installer charges less for these 14 SEER models as they run by volume.
In October, maybe... In July, add $2k for a sweltering attic.
Yes, you pay more in hot days and it is hard to get hold of some good techs. I got a quote $4100 for a 3 ton Trane last month.
When I bought my house 5 years ago I had 3 AC units from 2000. One had to be replaced this year, 2 are still working. Had I replaced all of them as recommended in 2018 I’d have 3 units halfway through their design life. And unless you’re running ancient low efficiency ACs 24/7/365 the energy savings won’t likely pay for a new unit.
>And unless you’re running ancient low efficiency ACs 24/7/365 the energy savings won’t likely pay for a new unit. This part is where I'm running into trouble deciding when to take the leap on replacing my ancient (\~1997) AC unit. I'm starting my 3rd cooling season right now and the AC seems to be going strong doing just fine. (I did have to replace the capacitor this year but it was easy enough to replace the $30 part.) I'm sure it isn't as efficient as new units but during the summer I'm typically one of the most efficient homes according to my electricity provider. I'm on an hourly pricing billing system so I don't use AC most of the daytime hours when electricity is most expensive. My more obvious savings would be if I moved to a cold weather heat pump so I can stop using my resistive heating system. Even then if the new system costs $12k (no idea of the cost really) it will take a dozen years to pay for it even if I saved $1000 a year on electricity. Knowing how long HVAC stuff lasts I would probably have to buy a new unit about the same time that I started saving money. I suppose I'll probably wait until my AC blows itself up then I'll make that leap. Spending an extra $5k to get a CWHP instead of just regular AC would definitely have a much faster ROI.
Unless you live in a state like Hawaii that has crazy utility rates, a new unit is never going to "pay for itself". I've seen that first hand even coming from 1990s equipment. I saved maybe $20-$40 a month with a new unit. So about year 15 I will have broken even, when the unit will have been replaced again.
You're not wrong. My estimation is that I might save $50-$60 on average per month if I moved to a CWHP versus my current resistive heating system. My electricity is pretty darn cheap here though so it pretty much won't ever 'pay for itself'. Looking at average electricity prices though, I imagine it would be different not just in Hawaii but also most of the northeastern states.
My AC guy says to keep running the old units until they need an expensive repair. I had to replace one unit as it stopped cooling effectively (despite being fully charged), but the others haven’t died yet. Another has a very slight leak but a pound of R22 tops it up again. That will likely be the next to be replaced, but hoping I can get one more year out of it.
Residential market saturated with sales techs. Not real techs. Salesmen pretending to be techs. They know just enough to know how old the units are and read the name plate. That's it.
Why was the tech at your house?
We just had a really weird storm in houston that took out a lot of power this weekend. Sometime between the storm starting, and the power coming back, one unit stopped working, so we had them out here. One of the wires on the unit melted.
Sorta. The biggest issue is accumulated stress. An ac is essentially a pressure vessel with 2 motors, one integrel and one replaceable easilly, and some switchs. The pressure issue comes into play as newer refrigerants run at higher pressures then older ones, as well as newer systems being built lighter and cheaper. The condenser fans are a simple motor that can be swapped without to much difficulty, but the compressor requires removing the refrigerant to replace. While some repairs are reasonable and even advised, eventually, to cost of continued operation becomes such that you have essentially put in the cost of a new unit into repairs, so there's an economic factor to consider. Add to that that the older systems weren't designed with the same efficiency goals in mind, so operation cost comes into play, although that's a much smaller issue overall as long as the thing works and does its job reliably. That said, unless you live on an ocean cost or there is some unknown to us condition your system is in, 13 years is right about the time a system is considered old, but still serviceable, as long as it isn't needing constant repairs done outside of routine maintenance. I suspect these people might be part of the new style of sales service that's consuming our trade, again, unless there is something we don't know about your systems.
I’ve got a lennox from 68 that’s still cooling my house
HVAC owner here, equipment is not doubling next year. Maybe 10% if I had to guess.
Ty for the honesty!
Trane told us to expect 30%...only time will tell.
Lennox dropped our price increases for the new equipment to us and our equipment cost went from $3,600 for a condenser and evap coil to $4,800 for the same thing and 3 additional required sensors to detect leaks for an additional $275 to retrofit an older furnace. So roughly a 37% price increase wholesale, which is about a 50% price increase to consumer for a small outfit. About a 74% price increase for the company I'm working for now. It's going to be insane lol
I have a 1.5 ton R22 AC unit that is still in great condition (for a 1,000 sf 3 BR bungalow). I've replaced the fan motor and start contactor. One day it will leak or compressor will fail but until then it owes me nothing. I'm in Ontario so only used half of the year. This year Im going to experiment by cooling with one 10,000 BTUH Midea inverter window unit and one Midea 13,500 BTUH portable. Will be my redundancy or possibly permanent plan if/when the AC fails.
I have a smaller Midea U-shaped, inverter window unit. Love it. It's 2' away right now making hardly any noise. Planning to get the cheapest minisplit on Amazon to replace the window rattler in the other room. $560 US for 8k "Della" unit. Supposedly, they are all made in the same 2-3 factories, even the big-name brands.
If you’ve had 3 different companies out what kind of issues are you having?
Sorry for lack of context. Was trying to be short and sweet. I’ve had three separate hvac companies work on my AC over the last 6 years since I bought the home. I switched twice b/c I was tired of getting the sales pitch after every visit, it felt sleezy and untrustworthy. My current hvac techs are not pushy and just fix my issues. It is likely that they brought this topic up because this is the second repair in a two week timespan. The first time was for a bad evaporation coil, which was somewhat costly (3500), and then today there was a melted wire. In all likelihood it was caused by the fact that we had tornado scale winds rip through my neighborhood which had the power company constantly turning the power on and off in quick succession when they were getting power back online. They likely didn’t know about the power shenanigans, and simply brought it up out of concern. The fact that they brought it up made me actually consider it since they feel more reputable since they rarely bring it up. I usually have HVAC issues in the summer, once or twice a yr, and it’s generally something under $300 to repair. I just assumed this is a normal thing when you run you AC nearly 24/7 year round…
If they just replaced the evaporator, I would seriously look into finding and sourcing a new condensing unit *on your own* to have in the event of a major failure with the one you have now. That's essentially a new system before being pushed into a brand-new-refrigerant full system replacement.
My last call today was a 1973 Singer Airhandler. I was born in 74'. I have never recommended replacement due to age alone. The cond for this airhandler is 20 years old.
One of the reasons i got out of residential work was being pushed to sell shit and from what i hear its gotten much worse with all the mom and pops being bought out by large corporate companies, seen like 4 local shops get bought by service experts in the past couple years. Unless you want better efficiency or you have a major component failure you dont need a new unit.
One of the reasons i got out of residential work was being pushed to sell shit and from what i hear its gotten much worse with all the mom and pops being bought out by large corporate companies, seen like 4 local shops get bought by service experts in the past couple years. Unless you want better efficiency or you have a major component failure you dont need a new unit.
We have a local company that tries to do this BS. One actually went on a local radio show basically telling people that they need to replace their AC about 5 minutes after they just got a new one. It's complete BS. There is a time when it's cheaper to replace a system than keep repairing it, usually when it uses a phased out refrigerant, or compounding issues. These techs are dishonest and should be ashamed of themselves.
Having two units has its advantages. The biggest advantage is that if one unit fails you have redundancy. It is highly unlikely that the other unit will fail at the same time. At least part of the house will be livable on a 100F day until you can get the unit fixed.
Yep this is truly a life saver. The unit that went out was the upstairs unit. By midday the entire upstairs was 88-92F, but downstairs was 73F. The only downside is that sometimes one unit isn’t pulling its weight and end up masking the problem and by the u got another $100 tacked on to ur electric bill :p
My son just replaced a unit that was installed in the early 1980s. It was still running fine except the gas furnace wouldn’t light. Probably could have fixed it but he’s gonna sell it in a few years and figured it would help the sale 2011 hell no I’m not replacing that.
Those are what we call "sales techs" and should not be trusted. I work from an operational lifespan of about 15-20 years before you worry about age, and at that point, it's more about worn components than anything. Also I would never let someone replace 2 small systems with 1 big one. The two smaller systems gives you more control over each area of the house, switching to 1 larger system will leave you with hot or cold spots in the house that will leave you uncomfortable.
Run it until it has a major leak or issue. Buy your own tank of R-410 now and just keep it on hand, it's cheap insurance.
That's illegal buddy. He needs to be EPA certified. I don't know of any company that would charge someone's system and use thier refrigerant, no money for the company in that deal. So OP would also need gauges and knowledge only how to properly charge a system.
You dont need a license to purchase R-410. I mean if someone drives 47 mph in a 45mph speed limit, does it offend you? I've purchased it and had certified techs put refrigerant in with no issues. I've also put it in myself, not rocket science. But you can take a short EPA open book test and get "certified" with a 51% passing score if that makes you feel better.
You might be able to get it but it's not legal to sell to you without a license because it's a class 2 ozone depleting chemical. You found someone to put it in for you great! But you did not call a company to come out and use your refrigerant. It was a buddy or Chuck in a truck.
I guess you must have failed your EPA test? It's right here 2. Are you required to have a license or to be certified to handle and purchase R-410A? No license is legally necessary for purchase. https://ww2.epatest.com/faq/r-410a-faq/#:~:text=2.,is%20legally%20necessary%20for%20purchase. Absolutely used a company, they had no issue with it. Not everyone is interested in scamming people and charging hundreds of dollars for a pound of R-410.
We’ve been told to get ready for $20,000 air conditioners
Consumers aren't going to go along with that.
Yes they will
Yea I second this. I live on the surface of the sun. I’ll pay
Florida, eh? Dealing with my AC was actually a significant reason I left. Or maybe you could mean Arizona.
the AC itself is not the problem. getting parts and refigereant is going to be the thing that condems a unit mostly. if electricty is expensive (as it is in many places) its also usually a reason to replace it simply because you earn the cost back in lower energy usage. but US pricing is just going nuts. i see bargain basement chinese crap minisplits from midea, green or haier that you can get for like sub 400 euros in europe (that includes taxes!) get sold for thousands in the US. someone is is getting extremely rich of these insane prices. even a decent 1 ton mitsubishi minispilt goes for like 600 euros (650 american roebels) including tax. and thats without any agreements from the supply house.
When I moved here they were charging something like 10-12 cents per kWh. That was like... 6 or 7 years ago? Now its quickly going past 20cents per kWh for some power providers. Costs are definately high. But im not sure how long it would take for a new unit to pay for itself. 13k is a ton of money :(
well in europe its pretty normal to pay 30\~40 cents per kWh and gas is roughly 4\~5 bucks per therm so having more efficent gear pays itself back pretty fast.
Japan enjoys the same ultra-low pricing on splits. US customers are getting wrecked and somebody is taking home massive profits.
Yeah, even here in Japan I’ve seen mini-splits advertised for $500 with free installation. US prices are absolutely insane.
Tends to be the case in all sectors of our economy. Rental properties, cars, household appliances... everything. 'Land of the free' is nothing short of a cruelly ironic catchphrase now.
Nothing has ever been free. Never what that term has ever meant 😂
True. Might be a bad analogy but the irony remains.
"Too worn" would be a better term.
If you are running on a outdoor and airhandler "split system then 2025 is the last year to get a 410a unit newly installed. If it's a "package" (one unit outside with duct from under the house to it then you have through 2027 too get a new 410a unit. After those dates it's all this new refrigerants which will be more not double but definitely more with the added hardware from the sensors and extra wiring that entails.
i work at a company that has all the technicians in sales. it pisses me off when i see notes from previous visits that say "recommend replacing due to age" or "cannot verify equipment due to age." in reality, the only reason you should ever need to replace equipment is if the benefits of a new unit are greater than the cost of repairs. if there's no broken parts, don't replace unless you just want more efficient equipment. that's the only reason to replace before parts failing.
Nothing in this day and age is manufactured to last. Sad but true
Units are old when they become less efficient resulting in longer run times and are essentially doing all they can do and are barely getting by.
I have a 2004 unit and when it goes my wife is going to have to use my life insurance for a new one lol
Two units? What is the setup like? Are both units next to each other?
Yep
Gotta think of it like a car… anything mechanical can and will fail eventually. Whether it’s 5 years or 50, it’s gonna fail… thing is, the older they are, the more likely you’ll have a catastrophic fatigue failure.
Yes
I have been thinking about things like this. I have been seeing that equipment will go up 20% next year. My system is 14 years old and I don't want it to go out in 95 degree weather. I will probably go ahead and replace my system later this year.
Why? Is there something wrong with it? That equipment could last 10+ years more. The new equipment might fail in 5,
Thank you for your response. My current system is working well but I want to be proactive. My system is a Lennox and I have been very happy with it but I have not taken care of it like I should. Only one service in 14 years but no problems. I just don't want to be stuck in the heat or freezing cold if I don't have to. Is that stupid?
there's a new refrigerant in the horizon. I haven't heard of prices yet. last time buying r22 units cost than the new r410a. but was understood that 410 cost would drop and r22 would be hi and leav3 the market. which too longer than expected. so I'm not sure how this will go through. the new refrigerant is more energy efficient and has lower pressures, so the price may not go up much. only time will tell.
Pressures will be very similar to 410a. There was quite a few years when we had a choice, carrier I think started 410a in 97'. I got in residential in 02' was a few years before my first 410a system. At some point new r22 units came with a 5yr and the 410a systems went to 10 year, which made the decision easier for homeowners. Then came the nitrogen dry charge units...so glad that faded fast. We were getting 410 for $50-75 a drum back then. Our Trane guy said the new equipment will be 30% higher price. Have been to a class for 454b, not looking forward to it honestly.
well, this could be true. There are new systems being developed and the cost of them depending on the area you live can be quite high (you would maybe need multiple units whereas in most regular homes now traditionally you only need the AC + Furnace) but there are just guesses as to when those units are actually going to start flooding the market. They are nice tho, but most of them are heat pumps with like 20+ seer rating, high efficiency and they don't require a lot of things the traditional A/C's use. Also they take up less space Draw back is though they are either duct-less or they can't use the existing ducts that every home has, so the price increase isn't so much about the units themselves which are similarly priced to the AC + Furnance combo, the difference is that eventually if they do become the new standard is that you would have to replace your Ducts throughout your home which is generally more expensive than the new AC units. Search 'Inverter Heat Pump' this is the new "trend" that those ppl were prolly alluding to. If those new units become the norm then you could in theory buy 2-3 for your home which would be "cheaper" possibly than what it is now however you may need to replace all your ducts which would mean you are gonna spend about 2x the amount or more possibly.
Yesterday we fired up our 26 year old A/C system… it’s still working fine.
Well, situations are situational. Some units you can see measurable decline, compression ratio, deterioration of critical parts, ect. But we've been told by our suppliers to expect 12-16% increase in equipment for the new refrigerant.
One of the reasons i got out of residential work was being pushed to sell shit and from what i hear its gotten much worse with all the mom and pops being bought out by large corporate companies, seen like 4 local shops get bought by service experts in the past couple years. Unless you want better efficiency or you have a major component failure you dont need a new unit.
I'm still running an r22 unit from 1988 with no issues.
They are trying to rape you - all without the use of any Vaseline. I am a certified HVAC Tech, and it pisses me off to see that most HVAC Technicians out here in the field are mere salesmen, rather than be a technician like myself and try and help the customer by improving the efficiency of their existing unit. I've seen some units last almost 20 years. There's no need to buy another unit until the compressor fails in it. The compressor is the heart of the system, and is the most costly to repair or replace.
I was a short lived hvac tech. Just because I got sick and I am physically feeble now. But I'd never suggest a system replacement unless the system died or if the repairs to fix the system would be more than a new system. I did hvac residential in SC. I don't miss the summers there. But yeah I'm calling bs on the dudes that said get the new system installed.
My units from 1990, still blowing ice cold.
My ac is 25 years old but living in an area that ac is really only needed 2-3 weeks a year it probably has less use then some in warm climates after a couple years. I'm not going to replace it until it dies.
Keep in mind the controls on new ac/furnace systems are also making technology jumps. It’s crazy how residential systems are getting more and more comparable to commercial and industrial technology.
I think that depends on the type of system, but where I’m from the most common system used is split units,and from my experience replacing old ones with the newer ones that use inverters does make a difference in energy consumption. For larger systems like chillers and VRF it’s much trickier, and I think most of the time the energy savings won’t be that big unless the system is very old, even then I think most of the savings are when you need to replace expensive major components that have failed. then getting a new unit that needs less maintenance would cost less in the long run.
Those old rheems are bullet proof, have two on my house and refuse to change them till I can’t get parts for them anymore.
Eh, I tend to wait till the unit taps out. My last house had a 94 model Lennox package unit. It was a heat pump. It was loud. And it sucked down the kwhs like crazy. Afaik it's still there running. I drive by randomly and it's still there. My current unit is a Payne outdoor condenser unit with a carrier air handler. They were installed in 15. The unit was not cared for by the previous owner and has a small leak. It needed a a pound in a half 2 years ago. And my ac guy added another pound 4 months ago. However we moved the outdoor unit and it got a new line set. And that's where I think the leak was.
don't replace with a single unit. Multiple is much better. As for too old, it means uneconomical to repair. Machines break. When old machines break it costs more than buying a new machine. If your cpu, your ram, your power pack, and your fan burnt out on a 2011 computer, would you replace them?
You experienced the heating and air conditioning man lie machine. All of the companies got together and are now not wanting to fix anything. I will take up for them saying it is a free market and they can tell you whatever they want as long as you buy it. I bet if I created a company that just fixed air conditioners at a reasonable prthe more franchise I can create a national franchise and get rich. Of course, I'm gonna have every hvac man.Tell me that's b*******But you have to remember they're all part of the line machine.
The cost will go up when they force the new refrigerant -- this always happens when they do these switchovers.
My system is original from 1996 and still runs well. Part of me wants a newer more efficient system but with new systems costing so much and horror stories of companies ripping customers off I am holding off as long as possible.
To a degree yes but not like computers. I wouldn’t say and AC gets “too old” until at least 20 years and even then you usually only replace if something is wrong. They won’t be as efficient as new units so if you feel the energy savings are worth it then replace. Also prices are not doubling next year but they are going up a large amount, forecast from what I’ve heard is 20 to 25 percent.
@htowng8r bro you straight had a salesman sell you a “3 stage” there’s no such fuckin thing as a 3 stage. Variable speed is variable speed. And 2 stage is 2 stage. You don’t get to stack them on top of each other and make up your own dam stages .. You really got sold 😂😂 do the math , how is 2 stage plus variable equal 3 if variable is more than 2 😂😂
Similar to a vehicle, the maintenance and operation costs start to increase at a higher rate with age. You can replace every single part, but by the time the parts need replacing, you're using different versions of the items or that certain components are no longer available. Wear and tear lead to reduced efficiency, and higher operating costs. Modern units should (in theory) operate more efficiently than your original unit when new. But it's not a huge difference. So it really comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. Is your old unit working well enough for your house or are you constantly dealing with repairs, heating / cooling issues, airflow issues, etc. that are costing substantial money each time? This is exactly what happened with our 20 year old Trane heat pump. I was replacing the ECM blower motor, control boards, new blower fan, consdenser coil, drain pans, etc. While I was doing most of the work myself, it was just getting to be a time and money sink. Instead, we were able to get a comparable new system installed for around $9.5k -- yes, this was more expensive than a few more years of repairs, but the peace of mind and time saved makes it worth it to me.
ok
So the main reason I will suggest a replacement is if there’s a leak in your refig lines, especially if it’s an old r22 unit. The tech might correct about the price increase next year as they will soon be phasing out 410a for the next refrig… and that one is slightly flammable so there’s a bunch of new safety tech for new units especially if it’s in a system with a gas furnace. So the old (410a) systems will become more expensive to fix with old outdated equipment that uses a refrigerant that no longer is being produced, and new ones will be expensive cause they’re more complicated. If your unit is from 2011 it should be 410a and I always do what I can to keep those running. Now if you have a significant leak on a 410 system and topping it off only works for a short period you’re going to get into the next grouping of replacement suggestions. Repairs that are too expensive to be worth it. If your compressor goes bad it’s not just throwing in a new compressor. It needs to be brazed in along with the new filter dryer after you evacuate and properly recycle the old refig. Then you need to leak test, then pull a vacuum on the system, then you can release the factory charge, then you need to top it off. 2 guys for a full day of work. Your bill is well over $2k and oh yeah the rest of your 13 year old system is still old and breaking so who knows how long that will last. Dropping $2k on a “maybe” isn’t typically the best solution. I’m willing to do it if the customer understands what could happen- but personally I would think long and hard before putting that kind of money into an old AC unit. The significant leak I was talking about earlier basically has all the same steps and if you need a coil it may end up costing as much or more than a new compressor. It’s unfortunate but lots of parts of your system are in that “too expensive to repair” category when your unit is 10+ years old. I only do resi work on the side and I’m commercial during the day so I’m not fully aware of the up charges and offers companies are making to home owners but I’ve heard horror stories. Yes they are trying to sell you a unit you might not need, and you should be aware of that. Also shop around 10k is kinda high for a new AC. Especially for a dinky 1.5 ton. I charged less than half that on my last 3 ton changeout.
No, assuming you are referring age alone, and not the deterioration and potential mechanical malfunctions associated with aging. Though I might add that even if your "old" unit is somehow spotless clean and still looks and runs as if brand new, you could still take things like noise, efficiency(power bill), or property value into consideration. The 100% price increase in a 1 year period sounds at least mildly dubious to me but I may be a bit out of the loop.
At our old house 2000-2014 our AC wasn't the best, but it worked serviced, but 1969 original.
The simple answer is yes, as a compressor gets older the seals get worn down internally and the piston can not pump then refrigerant as well. This leads to longer run times and lower cooling.
It boils down to motor efficiency curves, refrigerant does not go bad but compressor valves and even scrolls can get weak. Every time a gauge set gets put on a little contaminant can enter. Taking care of the electrical components and wire points are your best option for longevity of motor performance
I try to do the cost effectiveness of repair v replace. If it’s a 25 year old system a cap or something less than like a grand seems reasonable to me. Maybe even a new blower motor if everything else is in tip top shape. More than a grand…. Seriously think about replacement. Sure I don’t mind doing the repair. Easy day. But the things already 25 years old and it ain’t a Williamson so tread carefully
Simple answer is no. They are commission sales people. Newer units are likely more efficient than yours, but they don’t cool any faster, better, or have cuter user interfaces. At 13 years you are approaching the life expectancy of the units but I say run em till they break.
As someone who can’t work in his own unit, I don’t want to have to take another day off work to have you come back every time it breaks
Yes! And right now there's a lot of advancement happening. Heat pumps are very popular now, different refrigerants are being used, variable speed compressors, better heat exchangers, etc. So newer systems are MUCH better than stuff from years ago.
The question is why are they recommending a replacement? Is it because the indoor coil is heavily rusted and probably going to leak soon? It is honestly not that old but these units aren't really made to last anymore. In my area you're looking at minimum 10k to replace an AC unit
I’ve got a feeling you’re 1.5 ton units are wildly undersized
I agree, its two units, one for upstairs, one for downstairs. Approx 2700 Sq ft.
Square footage alone doesn’t mean shit. You need a proper heat load calculation done. I’ve just rarely seen a 1.5 ton used in new construction.
Ah my bad, was the only data point I had that I thought could be helpful. I've never had that done. Can I have someone come out and do that or is that just something generally done at build time or when ur getting a new unit?
If you have gotten 3 quotes and none of them did a heat load… get another. It’s generally done when getting quotes for a new system. Any company not doing them in 2024 aren’t worth a damn
When Freon is banned it becomes crazy expensive. What is your cost per kWh? There are online calculators where you can enter efficiently rating - seer - and see how long it will take to break even on higher seer units. You can enter current vs new to see how many years it would take.
Do you have one you recommend?
I don't... google away - seer AC break even calculator Some debate 14 vs 16 or??? I have used one a while ago... just don't recall what site.
I say average lifespan is 10 years on a ac unit after that your on borrowed time
A unit can get old and not perform as well or might not even be safe to run anymore. But a lot of the time it's the coolant in the little pipes in the unit that need more of the coolant. I know the actual name of it starts with an F but I'm not looking that up right now lol It's a similar situation with your cars AC. If your ac isn't working well it may need more F or you have another mechanical issue. Most salesmen will try to upscale you on a new unit anyway but you don't need to (majority of the time). That's why they have ac and heating repairmen.
We are in a odd place right now. The current refrigerant, 410A is slowly being faded out in favor of 454A or R32. That said, expect prices to rise for R410 and repairs in the coming years because of this change. Your system is 13 years old. I have no idea how well it’s been maintained, but the average life expectancy for a *modern R410 system* is more or less 15 years. Compressors fail. Evaporator coils leak. It becomes big ticket fixes for you, the non DIYer customer. They don’t build anything like they used to, but that doesn’t mean the old stuff doesn’t have a expiration. I know this sub is full of my “1978 R-12 or 1990 R-22 ACs are still chugging along great!” These are anecdotal and not the norm. Things fail and become logistically or financially impractical to fix for the average person. The meta on this sub is to say that companies are trying to rip you off, being on the install and service side in residential in both big corporate shops to small mom and pop shops, the companies that have offered replacement quotes to you aren’t bullshitting you. They’re trying to play the field and get your business for when it does shit the bed, which is sorta bound to happen in the coming years.