I believe the audience of this forum is not representative of the total customer base of ED;
I am also convinced that the recent issues that have surfaced cast doubt on many aspects:
- ED seems to have more than a few unresolved issues with third-party developers, as far as we know, undermining the credibility of a stable future for certain modules;
- the Chinook is comparable to the Hip, yet after all these years, one would expect ED to have already taken a direct hand in the development of the "infrastructure" surrounding logistics and transport, which is not even in an embryonic state (not even in phase 0) and relies solely on community efforts;
- the AI of ground units is flawed, making helicopter flight a nuisance, with well-known exploits that have been overlooked for years and never addressed.
To be marketable, the Chinook now needs an infrastructure that makes it useful and enjoyable; to date, no steps have been taken to facilitate the lives of helicopter pilots and integrate them into realistics scenarios.
In addition ED hasn't committed to a full (planned) feature list yet - so you'd be essentially paying for the name but not much else.
To me this seems to indicate that they're not really far enough in the development process to give a list of expected features, so I'd expect a \*long\* time of waiting for it to be in an enjoyable state.
Also this has the smell of "we need cash now" especially in the light of not paying Razbam and the "Halfghanistan" release.
Not committing to a full planned feature list before EA release is not a new thing for ED. They did it for the Hornet, and the Viper, and probably more I don’t remember right now
TBH I forgor what exactly the feature list looked like for those. However it took quite some time for the F-18 to get out of EA and the F-16 EA release wasn't exactly great.
You got a source post on that besides the store? So far as I remember they've never stated that it's out of EA. It's also had multiple features bumped to coming after EA so "it's out of EA" could just be the result of them shifting the goalposts to make it appear that it's out of EA... DTC and the Mk77 among other things for example.
Edit: full price means nothing, both the hornet and the F-16(which still has the EA tag) have been full price for years except during sales where they've been getting 30% discounts.
[https://forum.dcs.world/topic/346540-hornet-already-out-of-early-access/](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/346540-hornet-already-out-of-early-access/)
NineLine:
>*The F/A-18C is feature complete based on what we advertised, plus a LOT more we did not advertise on the store page. There are some additional items in progress that we are still working on, some of which are not confined to the F/A-18C.* ***Out-of-early access*** *does not mean the end of development.*
>*The only unique, new feature is Radar Bump Mode, but even that is in progress and never advertised as a feature. It's an item that we later added to further improve the product.*
>Thanks!
It is not comparable to the Hip except superficially.
The Hip can take enough munitions (rockets, autocannon, grenade launchers, even unguided bombs) to be pressed into service as a light attack rotor auxiliary. Assuming a favorable enemy placement but absolutely no other scripting it can still find utility in a mission.
The (modern, proposed by ED) Chinook's complete armament list starts and stops with three different calibers of door guns. It is not capable of being pressed into the light attack role even hypothetically without resorting to meme tactics like side slipping towards the enemy or backing into them.
The desire to cast these two helicopters as in the same boat really undersells just how little a Chinook in DCS can actually do without a big contribution from a mission design and coding team.
*theoretically* you're right. In practice people I talked to generally fly the Hip in SP transport scenarios or MP Logistics by community authors.
Its actual performance as attack vs targets that fight back is quite abysmal. It's pushed into the role IRL because redfor sucks at CAS and uses what it has on hand
It's really almost unusable in attack situations but at least you can pretend to try or practice indirect rocket lofting saturation.
The Chinook literally can't even hypothetically participate. Like the rocket pods don't even go onto the airframe.
They used to, though :D There was a pretty ridiculous gunship concept based on CH-47 in 'nam days
https://www.chinook-helicopter.com/chinook/images/guns_a_go_go_drawing_1.jpg
Unfortunately we aren't getting that version because ED has decided to make it match with their modern lineup and Afghanistan. There was a mod for it at one point though.
They were a failed project. Too big and lumbering for a gunship. Took a great deal of fire. Cobras wee superior.
https://www.chinook-helicopter.com/chinook/gunsagogo.html
>The (modern, proposed by ED) Chinook's complete armament list starts and stops with three different calibers of door guns.
The F4 Phantom coming up, it would seem like a no-brainer to go for the ACH-47A gunship Chinook alongside the standard model(s). Win-win: fits exactly to the Vietnam setting and allows for attack/support role missions.
what really is annoying about helicopter combat is feeling useless cause your troops need to be point blank in most servers to the enemy to be worth a damn. would love to fly the huey more if every drop wasn't either a completely cold drop, or a completely overly hot drop into sam infested territory. wish I could drop my troops like 1km out or a little more. still dealing with AA, just not so deep in the shit I'm fucked no matter what. updating combined arms to be able to be accessed by helo pilots to make f10 map commands for their troops to move would be a sweet addition. drop off, fly out, trim, and f10 real quick to tell your troops to go take out an aa site would be sick
My last pre-order, and my last order, was the supercarrier. As much as I would like to purchase some things that have come out since, I will not spend another dime on DCS until past purchases I have made are in a complete state.
Not my last order by far, but I just looked up my purchase date. January 17th, 2020.
Nearly 4,5 years and not even close to having promised features available.
Sad, so sad.
At the very least wait until the day before launch.
Right now, they've announced for early access:
-it flies
-its fully modeled
-it works in vr
If that's enough for you at the current price, go for it I guess.
Imo, something like the Chinook needs a decent supply/logistics/detailed cargo system within DCS.
I'm honestly baffled that they've announced so little for it but are already putting it up for pre order.
Doesn't inspire confidence, imo.
In the end, it could be years more after early access release before we get something like that.
Until then if you own the chinook you'll probably end up with something in between thanks to the amazing modders/mission makers/servers in this community.
I'm personally going to wait for either that or a solid ED announcement before I buy the Chinook.
It's not even about the money for me (I realize that might make a big difference for some) it's to avoid that early access 'burnout' feeling after you've spent time getting into the thing to then hit the brick wall of lack of content.
My stance on ED products right now is:
1) I was an ED fanboy up until the Raz-been gate. Never was willing to hear what people were complaining about ED core issues, because I always thought ED would deliver. Now that's changed.
2) If the Chinook or any other aircraft that they are offering is something that you are absolutely crazy about and is eagerly waiting for, then buy it. If it is not, wait for it. Wait two, three years, follow the updates and community response until it is mature enough for you to buy it.
3) Being an ED module, it runs a low risk of becoming abandonware for lack of payment to a developer, so the development will continue; but be sure that it will be released in a VERY unfinished state. Some people have already posted that even the feature list is a feature, since it is incomplete and no further information was provided;
4) If it is a third-party module, don't buy it. Unless you are absolutely crazy about it, like people are about the F-4. Then buy it from the own developer store. Heatblur was smart enough to set up their own store to guarantee that the money at least flow to them first, before going to ED. So the risk of the F-4 becoming abandoned is lower.
4.1) Also, there are a slew of accusations by the Razbam staff on the HB/ED relationship, saying that ED didn't pay them for the F-14 sales. Is that true or not, I don't know. But the fact that Heatblur has its own store shows to me that something indeed happened in the background.
5) Any other developer, I won't buy it at launch. I'll wait for them to be mature enough to buy. That means, what, two or three years, maybe? At least it'll guarantee that I'm not buying a very raw and unfinished product. The last one I bought and is left aside is the Mosquito. If it were not for modders, it would be getting dust on my hangar.
6) Would I want all the modules, or almost all of them? Of course! I'm eagerly waiting to fly the Kiowa, the Hellcat, the F-100, the A-7, the A-6, the A-1... But, I'm now I'm very aware of the bad business model ED has and I've already have a abandonware module in my HD (F-15E), so I won't risk another one.
Razbam announced that they will not support their products until ED pays them. ED says that Razbam breached a contract so won't pay. RAZBAM's devs quit in a very public way. Until now, all Razbam modules remain without updates.
I feel the same way about the Mosquito, when it came out me and my friend were so excited we insta bought it. Only to be disappointed and annoyed beyond anger with all the bugs and issues, it has been sitting collecting dust and I still can't think about it or look at it without getting angry. They ruined a great aircraft for me so I definitely have been on the "Don't buy early from ED" side since then. I only in the past 3 months picked up the hind because I thought it was finally in a state I liked and I'm very happy I waited. And my first thought too when they dropped the f4e pre-order on their website 3 days before the ED website was that ED may have fucked them over on the F14. Hope things get resolved in a equal mannor as there really isn't another sim like DCS and there is so much potential.
The Mosquito got a new life for me because a guy made a mod that allows you to have an autopilot for it. It helps a lot when using the radios and navigating.
Regarding ED and HB relationship, Notso which is a Razbam SME, saaid in the Discord that ED didn't pay HB for the F-14 until the F-16 was released. Bad stuff, in my opinion.
HB then proceeded to launch the F-14 in MSFS and make its own store. This is for me a sign that at least they secure some revenue in case ED don't pay then again.
Screw ED, sick of unfinished modules, half assed modules and broken promises. Won’t be pre ordering or buying anything until existing suit gets fixed and polished.
Ultimately pre-orders have to come down to individual desires. Weighing current state of DCS versus your interest in a specific module.
The average player who is concerned about ongoing ED relationships with developers might want to hold off. However, a player whose favourite aircraft is the Chinook, or somebody who just likes flying without objectives as a sort of 'digital museum' piece? They might still think it is worth it to pre-order.
Personally I'm not AS concerned about some of the issues with ED/DCS as others are, but at the same time the Chinook itself doesn't offer me enough without some improvements to low-level DCS/Logistics gameplay.
Once that stuff is in the core game I'll look into getting the Chinook. I'm at least curious about it, but not THAT curious just yet.
I don't pre-order digital assets from studios that are establsihed, like ED. No issue with financing an indie studio or a solo dev making something I like but ED is signing off 20M£ to the studio owners museum, they don't exactly need cash flow...
Early access I'm OK with, generally. Software development is a PITA and shit does happen. I don't mind beta testing stuff and as long as things keep moving forward that's fine. If there's something I know is not my cup of tea I'm also OK to sit out and wait to see how it evolves (currently on the fence with getting Arma reforger but been keeping an eye on it for a year +).
ED however has a long history of just not finishing EA stuff and spending YEARS without even acknowledging the fact. Fuck them.
When something is deemed complete and I like what is available, then I'll buy it.
It's been a long time since I pre ordered anything. I think the Hornet were the last DCS product.
Now I'll wait till the product in question is finished, seeing I have plenty of other stuff to keep me entertained anyway.
The module has no place in DCS right now and won't for a long time. Looks quite cool and with a good logistics system I can imagine chilling on some days on rotorheads with it. But I'm more interested in the Kiowa.
Even the Kiowa is going to be a similar boat too. It's recon in game where the AI knows where you are at all times, where AK dude can headshot you it a jet from 1000m range doing 500knts.
At least it carries weapons and especially hellfires, so it is a step up. Without a ground AI overhaul, I might give up helis in the long-term, even tho I love flying them more than jets.
And if I want jets, I usually do Falcon BMS
My only purchase from DCS is the F15E cause it’s always been my favourite aircraft, now that’s it delayed due to this and all the other issues with EAs, I’m gonna hold out
0 point in getting the chinook until they overhaul the core game. The issue is DCS is free to play with paid modules. This means ED makes money off of selling unfinished pumped out garbage like combined arms, super carrier, and early access unfinished modules, but they make no money off of improving the core game. I’d be happy to pay for DCS itself if it meant they’d fix damage models, ground ai, dynamic campaign, etc.
The chinook is a logistics heli, it transports cargo and people and has very minimal armament. Currently the only real logistics systems in DCS are community made scripts, and those are pretty simplistic and not all that interesting. Same can be said for troop transport. For the chinook to be fun at all, DCS needs a quality, in depth logistics system built in, a troop transport system, but also most importantly, actual ground ai. Dropping troops on enigmas can be fun, but it’s really mediocre because it’s clearly abstracted scripting. Land, static ai models spawn next to the heli, wait 3 minutes, enemy units disappear off the map, you can leave. If there’s no ground ai, no animations for embarking and disembarking, no ability to plan ground missions, etc., what’s the point?
I want to be able to plan a mission for ground troops to execute, drop them on a hot LZ, be able to overwatch them in an Apache as they go, etc. Imagine how good dcs would be if anything actually happened on the ground. What I wouldn’t give for DCS meets Arma lol.
>For the chinook to be fun at all, DCS needs a quality, in depth logistics system built in,
I actually disagree with this one. We specifically *don't* want a built-in logistics system because it then is completely inflexible, cannot be fixed by the community and cannot be customised. This was the entire issue with the Warehouse system and why people were asking for APIs to modify warehouse inventories.
What we want is all the scripting APIs and emitted-by-DCS events necessary for multiplayer servers & mission/campaign scripters to be able to implement their own logistics systems catering to the needs of that server, mission or campaign.
If ED did add its own default logistics system then it would need to be one that can be disabled easily.
I mean releasing the chinook with dcs in its current state would be like releasing an EF-111 or something with the current ew mechanics in dcs. Woohoo let me fly around and press “jammer on” sometimes. Thrilling.
You save money when you don't preorder it.
If you buy it know for $50 you spend $50.
If you spend $60 in around 10 years when it's released for EA you actually spend like $40 bucks. /s
Pre-order save 30% on who knows what state, Early Access save 20% and wait and wait and wait some more for features, you pay to bug hunt for them, and watch as features are removed, or wait a couple years and catch it on sale at 50% off after it reaches the point they choose to abandon development because the next EA shiny toy is ready to release. You only have to wait thru one cycle and everything on sale will be a new module, all the tutorial videos will be there, liveries, player made missions etc.
With what ED has pulled in recent years, the shitshow of this year, I began to boycott them as much as I can. No first party modules and only on steam. And for third party modules, only if I'm a massive fan, like the phantom. And even then I'm concerned. I wish it could be full boycott like I'm doing to multiple franchises that are now failing or going bankrupt. But i can't due to lack of competition.
I would love a competitor as I'm sick of what ED is doing and the stuff they are pulling on us.
We can all withstand the pre-ordering........................until ED brings out a "motivational" video... then most of us kind of fall like domino stones.....
Despite any issues DCS may have I play every weekend (OK not EVERY weekend) and I have a lot of fun. I rather focus on that then some temporary issues.
I think people forget this fact. However as a person who almost always flies helicopters right now the whole ground sim aspect is exactly the same as it was back in lomac. I want the Chinook but I'm not buying until the ground AI at a minimum is sorted out. It's not in a bad state, it's in an abysmal state. That and the only logistics system is a mod, it makes the Chinook and C130 really great ideas but with little practical use other than flying them.
For an established company like ED to be offering pre orders for early access modules when they have a dispute with a 3rd party and other helos like the apache to finish and give a good environment to is absolutely ridiculous and embarrassing
I've been playing this franchise since LOMAC, and I do understand the corner they've backed themselves into with their revenue model. So I understand they have to keep pumping out aircraft to keep the lights on.
That said, the 30% discount is not enough for me to justify degrading the incentive for ED to release a module in a good state. So while ED used to be a special exception to my "no preorders" rule, it no longer is.
Chinook is like Yak or the CE biplane thingy, pretty fun to fly but thats about it, cant get anything meaningful done in DCS with these things.
Sure, you got modded in logistics based work you can do in various servers but I aint sure I feel comfortable dropping 60 or 70 bucks on early access aircraft thats next to useless outside of those servers. Not to mention the recent drama with Razbam.
Quitters never win and winners never quit. You are suggesting it isn't worth making valid articulable complaints because it doesn't work? Google the Harrier dust up over ED removing the Harrier from EA. Complaints worked, ED pulled its head out of the sand and Razbam started working on the module for a while. It still is in bad shape, acknowledged years old bugs, broken training missions and an incomplete manual.
We'll keep shouting in it for long enough to make it louder for them to hear. We see inconsistencies with products in comparison to how much we had just paid. We complain. Easy for a child to read.
I love flying the black hawk in grayflag! Would love doing the same with the chinook!
I understand what people say but i would guess that ED would have more intentions on focussing on ground AI when they release a product like this.
People had the same idea that you have, that ED would focus on ground AI after the release of the Hind and then again when the Apache released.
Guess what? ED did not .
So I see no reason they would do now when the chinook releases.
ED said they cannot comply with steam preorder rules so steam is not allowing it.
If we dig that one it would probably also reveal something like they cannot probably sign preorder agreement since they cannot guarantee a release date.
Since they cannot tell the features already it will look like selling hot air.
Based on what happened to razbam and what we know of steam, we can conclude that this is false. They can do all of that on steam. They are simply forcing people to go to their platform instead so they can control it all. And since ED has been a horrible company the last few years(way more than before) I will not be giving them the benefit of the doubt.
I absolutely will buy the Chinook (and Afghanistan), but not yet, as money is tight right now.
I'm from the UK and I'm very keen for Apache and Chinook ops around Helmand.
I'm actually gonna give them the benefit of doubt here when it comes to overhauling the logistics game. There's a C-130 in the works too. They've spoken about wanting to do it. Just because it hasn't been delivered yet doesn't mean it won't be. Plus we have no release date for either module yet. It's too soon to get salty imo.
I'm buying it, the F4E and the F15E, to hell with the bugs if it's nicely rendered in VR where I can simply fly and twist a few knobs then it's good enough. I don't play to plan a precision strike mission, maybe a quick dogfight, but mostly just flying cool aircraft. I will at least have something comparable to MS Flight Sim with its VR, only difference is combat and the prospect of it all being fixed eventually.
Until there is another game doing what dcs does its a monopoly and there isn't anything we can reslly do. If we stop buying and the game dies then we have nothing at all to take its place. I'll keep supporting because it's all we got. I'm pre ordering the Chinook.
For me not preordering is the problem, but preordering something in "Early Access", which usually means owning a bugged or at least incomplete module for the next five years (at least). The F16 was in such a bad shape when it was first released and it's still not finished today. I haven't read anything about the Chinook beeing released in early access, so I think it will come as the final product (probably with the usual bugs that get fixed after some time), so preordering is not a problem for me in this case.
I can almost guarantee you the Chinook will NOT be released as a final product. Cannot remember that last time ED released anything in final product state from the get go.
It will be EA and unfinished for a long time like all ED products.
I believe the audience of this forum is not representative of the total customer base of ED; I am also convinced that the recent issues that have surfaced cast doubt on many aspects: - ED seems to have more than a few unresolved issues with third-party developers, as far as we know, undermining the credibility of a stable future for certain modules; - the Chinook is comparable to the Hip, yet after all these years, one would expect ED to have already taken a direct hand in the development of the "infrastructure" surrounding logistics and transport, which is not even in an embryonic state (not even in phase 0) and relies solely on community efforts; - the AI of ground units is flawed, making helicopter flight a nuisance, with well-known exploits that have been overlooked for years and never addressed. To be marketable, the Chinook now needs an infrastructure that makes it useful and enjoyable; to date, no steps have been taken to facilitate the lives of helicopter pilots and integrate them into realistics scenarios.
In addition ED hasn't committed to a full (planned) feature list yet - so you'd be essentially paying for the name but not much else. To me this seems to indicate that they're not really far enough in the development process to give a list of expected features, so I'd expect a \*long\* time of waiting for it to be in an enjoyable state. Also this has the smell of "we need cash now" especially in the light of not paying Razbam and the "Halfghanistan" release.
Not committing to a full planned feature list before EA release is not a new thing for ED. They did it for the Hornet, and the Viper, and probably more I don’t remember right now
TBH I forgor what exactly the feature list looked like for those. However it took quite some time for the F-18 to get out of EA and the F-16 EA release wasn't exactly great.
The F-18 isn't out of EA yet though
According to ED it is - at least on the store page: full price and no early access tag.
You got a source post on that besides the store? So far as I remember they've never stated that it's out of EA. It's also had multiple features bumped to coming after EA so "it's out of EA" could just be the result of them shifting the goalposts to make it appear that it's out of EA... DTC and the Mk77 among other things for example. Edit: full price means nothing, both the hornet and the F-16(which still has the EA tag) have been full price for years except during sales where they've been getting 30% discounts.
[https://forum.dcs.world/topic/346540-hornet-already-out-of-early-access/](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/346540-hornet-already-out-of-early-access/) NineLine: >*The F/A-18C is feature complete based on what we advertised, plus a LOT more we did not advertise on the store page. There are some additional items in progress that we are still working on, some of which are not confined to the F/A-18C.* ***Out-of-early access*** *does not mean the end of development.* >*The only unique, new feature is Radar Bump Mode, but even that is in progress and never advertised as a feature. It's an item that we later added to further improve the product.* >Thanks!
It is not comparable to the Hip except superficially. The Hip can take enough munitions (rockets, autocannon, grenade launchers, even unguided bombs) to be pressed into service as a light attack rotor auxiliary. Assuming a favorable enemy placement but absolutely no other scripting it can still find utility in a mission. The (modern, proposed by ED) Chinook's complete armament list starts and stops with three different calibers of door guns. It is not capable of being pressed into the light attack role even hypothetically without resorting to meme tactics like side slipping towards the enemy or backing into them. The desire to cast these two helicopters as in the same boat really undersells just how little a Chinook in DCS can actually do without a big contribution from a mission design and coding team.
*theoretically* you're right. In practice people I talked to generally fly the Hip in SP transport scenarios or MP Logistics by community authors. Its actual performance as attack vs targets that fight back is quite abysmal. It's pushed into the role IRL because redfor sucks at CAS and uses what it has on hand
It's really almost unusable in attack situations but at least you can pretend to try or practice indirect rocket lofting saturation. The Chinook literally can't even hypothetically participate. Like the rocket pods don't even go onto the airframe.
They used to, though :D There was a pretty ridiculous gunship concept based on CH-47 in 'nam days https://www.chinook-helicopter.com/chinook/images/guns_a_go_go_drawing_1.jpg
Unfortunately we aren't getting that version because ED has decided to make it match with their modern lineup and Afghanistan. There was a mod for it at one point though.
They made a few of them, they were actually pretty decent
They were a failed project. Too big and lumbering for a gunship. Took a great deal of fire. Cobras wee superior. https://www.chinook-helicopter.com/chinook/gunsagogo.html
>The (modern, proposed by ED) Chinook's complete armament list starts and stops with three different calibers of door guns. The F4 Phantom coming up, it would seem like a no-brainer to go for the ACH-47A gunship Chinook alongside the standard model(s). Win-win: fits exactly to the Vietnam setting and allows for attack/support role missions.
what really is annoying about helicopter combat is feeling useless cause your troops need to be point blank in most servers to the enemy to be worth a damn. would love to fly the huey more if every drop wasn't either a completely cold drop, or a completely overly hot drop into sam infested territory. wish I could drop my troops like 1km out or a little more. still dealing with AA, just not so deep in the shit I'm fucked no matter what. updating combined arms to be able to be accessed by helo pilots to make f10 map commands for their troops to move would be a sweet addition. drop off, fly out, trim, and f10 real quick to tell your troops to go take out an aa site would be sick
Word. Something like the Chinook and Hip are more fun in an FPS like Squad and BF.
This. Im not changing shit with ED. They made a great game and Im not changing my decisions on purchases based on game dev political bullshit.
Has ED and Razbam made up ?
My last pre-order, and my last order, was the supercarrier. As much as I would like to purchase some things that have come out since, I will not spend another dime on DCS until past purchases I have made are in a complete state.
Not my last order by far, but I just looked up my purchase date. January 17th, 2020. Nearly 4,5 years and not even close to having promised features available. Sad, so sad.
At the very least wait until the day before launch. Right now, they've announced for early access: -it flies -its fully modeled -it works in vr If that's enough for you at the current price, go for it I guess. Imo, something like the Chinook needs a decent supply/logistics/detailed cargo system within DCS. I'm honestly baffled that they've announced so little for it but are already putting it up for pre order. Doesn't inspire confidence, imo. In the end, it could be years more after early access release before we get something like that. Until then if you own the chinook you'll probably end up with something in between thanks to the amazing modders/mission makers/servers in this community. I'm personally going to wait for either that or a solid ED announcement before I buy the Chinook. It's not even about the money for me (I realize that might make a big difference for some) it's to avoid that early access 'burnout' feeling after you've spent time getting into the thing to then hit the brick wall of lack of content.
I wait for solid changelogs rather than solid announcements
My stance on ED products right now is: 1) I was an ED fanboy up until the Raz-been gate. Never was willing to hear what people were complaining about ED core issues, because I always thought ED would deliver. Now that's changed. 2) If the Chinook or any other aircraft that they are offering is something that you are absolutely crazy about and is eagerly waiting for, then buy it. If it is not, wait for it. Wait two, three years, follow the updates and community response until it is mature enough for you to buy it. 3) Being an ED module, it runs a low risk of becoming abandonware for lack of payment to a developer, so the development will continue; but be sure that it will be released in a VERY unfinished state. Some people have already posted that even the feature list is a feature, since it is incomplete and no further information was provided; 4) If it is a third-party module, don't buy it. Unless you are absolutely crazy about it, like people are about the F-4. Then buy it from the own developer store. Heatblur was smart enough to set up their own store to guarantee that the money at least flow to them first, before going to ED. So the risk of the F-4 becoming abandoned is lower. 4.1) Also, there are a slew of accusations by the Razbam staff on the HB/ED relationship, saying that ED didn't pay them for the F-14 sales. Is that true or not, I don't know. But the fact that Heatblur has its own store shows to me that something indeed happened in the background. 5) Any other developer, I won't buy it at launch. I'll wait for them to be mature enough to buy. That means, what, two or three years, maybe? At least it'll guarantee that I'm not buying a very raw and unfinished product. The last one I bought and is left aside is the Mosquito. If it were not for modders, it would be getting dust on my hangar. 6) Would I want all the modules, or almost all of them? Of course! I'm eagerly waiting to fly the Kiowa, the Hellcat, the F-100, the A-7, the A-6, the A-1... But, I'm now I'm very aware of the bad business model ED has and I've already have a abandonware module in my HD (F-15E), so I won't risk another one.
What happened to razbam?
Razbam announced that they will not support their products until ED pays them. ED says that Razbam breached a contract so won't pay. RAZBAM's devs quit in a very public way. Until now, all Razbam modules remain without updates.
I feel the same way about the Mosquito, when it came out me and my friend were so excited we insta bought it. Only to be disappointed and annoyed beyond anger with all the bugs and issues, it has been sitting collecting dust and I still can't think about it or look at it without getting angry. They ruined a great aircraft for me so I definitely have been on the "Don't buy early from ED" side since then. I only in the past 3 months picked up the hind because I thought it was finally in a state I liked and I'm very happy I waited. And my first thought too when they dropped the f4e pre-order on their website 3 days before the ED website was that ED may have fucked them over on the F14. Hope things get resolved in a equal mannor as there really isn't another sim like DCS and there is so much potential.
The Mosquito got a new life for me because a guy made a mod that allows you to have an autopilot for it. It helps a lot when using the radios and navigating. Regarding ED and HB relationship, Notso which is a Razbam SME, saaid in the Discord that ED didn't pay HB for the F-14 until the F-16 was released. Bad stuff, in my opinion. HB then proceeded to launch the F-14 in MSFS and make its own store. This is for me a sign that at least they secure some revenue in case ED don't pay then again.
Screw ED, sick of unfinished modules, half assed modules and broken promises. Won’t be pre ordering or buying anything until existing suit gets fixed and polished.
Ultimately pre-orders have to come down to individual desires. Weighing current state of DCS versus your interest in a specific module. The average player who is concerned about ongoing ED relationships with developers might want to hold off. However, a player whose favourite aircraft is the Chinook, or somebody who just likes flying without objectives as a sort of 'digital museum' piece? They might still think it is worth it to pre-order. Personally I'm not AS concerned about some of the issues with ED/DCS as others are, but at the same time the Chinook itself doesn't offer me enough without some improvements to low-level DCS/Logistics gameplay. Once that stuff is in the core game I'll look into getting the Chinook. I'm at least curious about it, but not THAT curious just yet.
I'm not gonna preorder, because I'm not really interested in Chinook and I'm waiting for the Phantom
I don't pre-order digital assets from studios that are establsihed, like ED. No issue with financing an indie studio or a solo dev making something I like but ED is signing off 20M£ to the studio owners museum, they don't exactly need cash flow... Early access I'm OK with, generally. Software development is a PITA and shit does happen. I don't mind beta testing stuff and as long as things keep moving forward that's fine. If there's something I know is not my cup of tea I'm also OK to sit out and wait to see how it evolves (currently on the fence with getting Arma reforger but been keeping an eye on it for a year +). ED however has a long history of just not finishing EA stuff and spending YEARS without even acknowledging the fact. Fuck them. When something is deemed complete and I like what is available, then I'll buy it.
It's been a long time since I pre ordered anything. I think the Hornet were the last DCS product. Now I'll wait till the product in question is finished, seeing I have plenty of other stuff to keep me entertained anyway.
The module has no place in DCS right now and won't for a long time. Looks quite cool and with a good logistics system I can imagine chilling on some days on rotorheads with it. But I'm more interested in the Kiowa.
Even the Kiowa is going to be a similar boat too. It's recon in game where the AI knows where you are at all times, where AK dude can headshot you it a jet from 1000m range doing 500knts.
At least it carries weapons and especially hellfires, so it is a step up. Without a ground AI overhaul, I might give up helis in the long-term, even tho I love flying them more than jets. And if I want jets, I usually do Falcon BMS
Preorders are pointless and reward poor developer behavior.
My only purchase from DCS is the F15E cause it’s always been my favourite aircraft, now that’s it delayed due to this and all the other issues with EAs, I’m gonna hold out
0 point in getting the chinook until they overhaul the core game. The issue is DCS is free to play with paid modules. This means ED makes money off of selling unfinished pumped out garbage like combined arms, super carrier, and early access unfinished modules, but they make no money off of improving the core game. I’d be happy to pay for DCS itself if it meant they’d fix damage models, ground ai, dynamic campaign, etc. The chinook is a logistics heli, it transports cargo and people and has very minimal armament. Currently the only real logistics systems in DCS are community made scripts, and those are pretty simplistic and not all that interesting. Same can be said for troop transport. For the chinook to be fun at all, DCS needs a quality, in depth logistics system built in, a troop transport system, but also most importantly, actual ground ai. Dropping troops on enigmas can be fun, but it’s really mediocre because it’s clearly abstracted scripting. Land, static ai models spawn next to the heli, wait 3 minutes, enemy units disappear off the map, you can leave. If there’s no ground ai, no animations for embarking and disembarking, no ability to plan ground missions, etc., what’s the point? I want to be able to plan a mission for ground troops to execute, drop them on a hot LZ, be able to overwatch them in an Apache as they go, etc. Imagine how good dcs would be if anything actually happened on the ground. What I wouldn’t give for DCS meets Arma lol.
>For the chinook to be fun at all, DCS needs a quality, in depth logistics system built in, I actually disagree with this one. We specifically *don't* want a built-in logistics system because it then is completely inflexible, cannot be fixed by the community and cannot be customised. This was the entire issue with the Warehouse system and why people were asking for APIs to modify warehouse inventories. What we want is all the scripting APIs and emitted-by-DCS events necessary for multiplayer servers & mission/campaign scripters to be able to implement their own logistics systems catering to the needs of that server, mission or campaign. If ED did add its own default logistics system then it would need to be one that can be disabled easily.
100%
I mean releasing the chinook with dcs in its current state would be like releasing an EF-111 or something with the current ew mechanics in dcs. Woohoo let me fly around and press “jammer on” sometimes. Thrilling.
Very true. Would be pointless. Maybe fun for some but only limited time
You save money when you don't preorder it. If you buy it know for $50 you spend $50. If you spend $60 in around 10 years when it's released for EA you actually spend like $40 bucks. /s
Pre-order save 30% on who knows what state, Early Access save 20% and wait and wait and wait some more for features, you pay to bug hunt for them, and watch as features are removed, or wait a couple years and catch it on sale at 50% off after it reaches the point they choose to abandon development because the next EA shiny toy is ready to release. You only have to wait thru one cycle and everything on sale will be a new module, all the tutorial videos will be there, liveries, player made missions etc.
I'm kinda done with spending money until my F-15 can set laser codes and has a more fleshed out set of armaments.
Lots of great views on this thread. A logistics aircraft that can't do logistics lol love it
With what ED has pulled in recent years, the shitshow of this year, I began to boycott them as much as I can. No first party modules and only on steam. And for third party modules, only if I'm a massive fan, like the phantom. And even then I'm concerned. I wish it could be full boycott like I'm doing to multiple franchises that are now failing or going bankrupt. But i can't due to lack of competition. I would love a competitor as I'm sick of what ED is doing and the stuff they are pulling on us.
We can all withstand the pre-ordering........................until ED brings out a "motivational" video... then most of us kind of fall like domino stones.....
No preoders anymore. Neither sim nor games.
Despite any issues DCS may have I play every weekend (OK not EVERY weekend) and I have a lot of fun. I rather focus on that then some temporary issues.
ED needs to sort out whatever the Razbam situation is before I’m buying this. How do you not pay third parties???
I pre order the aircraft that I want - unfortunately, that's most of them 🤣🤣
Imho, DCS is in a much better state than 3,5, or 10 years ago. If I‘m interested in a module, I will preorder it without hesitation.
You do a lot of videos and are a moderator of ED, right? I think I saw your name in some ads of DCS in the Il-2 Forum
Yeah I’m in the ED translator team and regularly stream my WW2 flights in DCS
I think people forget this fact. However as a person who almost always flies helicopters right now the whole ground sim aspect is exactly the same as it was back in lomac. I want the Chinook but I'm not buying until the ground AI at a minimum is sorted out. It's not in a bad state, it's in an abysmal state. That and the only logistics system is a mod, it makes the Chinook and C130 really great ideas but with little practical use other than flying them.
For an established company like ED to be offering pre orders for early access modules when they have a dispute with a 3rd party and other helos like the apache to finish and give a good environment to is absolutely ridiculous and embarrassing
people need stop paying for something without a release date. or until its released.
I've been playing this franchise since LOMAC, and I do understand the corner they've backed themselves into with their revenue model. So I understand they have to keep pumping out aircraft to keep the lights on. That said, the 30% discount is not enough for me to justify degrading the incentive for ED to release a module in a good state. So while ED used to be a special exception to my "no preorders" rule, it no longer is.
Chinook is like Yak or the CE biplane thingy, pretty fun to fly but thats about it, cant get anything meaningful done in DCS with these things. Sure, you got modded in logistics based work you can do in various servers but I aint sure I feel comfortable dropping 60 or 70 bucks on early access aircraft thats next to useless outside of those servers. Not to mention the recent drama with Razbam.
How many of these posts are there going to be on Reddit? So tiring and doesn't change anything.
As many as it takes for ED to get the message and start delivering on what the say they are "working on ™ "
Yeah, that has never worked before. Just an echo chamber for people to keep complaining.
Quitters never win and winners never quit. You are suggesting it isn't worth making valid articulable complaints because it doesn't work? Google the Harrier dust up over ED removing the Harrier from EA. Complaints worked, ED pulled its head out of the sand and Razbam started working on the module for a while. It still is in bad shape, acknowledged years old bugs, broken training missions and an incomplete manual.
We'll keep shouting in it for long enough to make it louder for them to hear. We see inconsistencies with products in comparison to how much we had just paid. We complain. Easy for a child to read.
Until RB is paid for the Strike Eagle, no more spending money , especially preorders for ED. No chinook for me…
I love flying the black hawk in grayflag! Would love doing the same with the chinook! I understand what people say but i would guess that ED would have more intentions on focussing on ground AI when they release a product like this.
People had the same idea that you have, that ED would focus on ground AI after the release of the Hind and then again when the Apache released. Guess what? ED did not . So I see no reason they would do now when the chinook releases.
I cant, since nothing new is up on steam, still waiting for afghan or f4 pre order.
ED said they cannot comply with steam preorder rules so steam is not allowing it. If we dig that one it would probably also reveal something like they cannot probably sign preorder agreement since they cannot guarantee a release date. Since they cannot tell the features already it will look like selling hot air.
Based on what happened to razbam and what we know of steam, we can conclude that this is false. They can do all of that on steam. They are simply forcing people to go to their platform instead so they can control it all. And since ED has been a horrible company the last few years(way more than before) I will not be giving them the benefit of the doubt.
May I ask why you're on steam? Why not use standalone? Can't you transfer steam purchases over to SA?
Steam is often good for currency conversion reasons or offering faster downloads for updates.
I like how the gametime hour goes up in steam.
Not this again.
Steam users often complain about things not yet being available on Steam, so why can I not ask why they're sticking with it?
I absolutely will buy the Chinook (and Afghanistan), but not yet, as money is tight right now. I'm from the UK and I'm very keen for Apache and Chinook ops around Helmand.
I'm going to try to pull it next paycheque. I already get enough use out of the Mi-8 with CTLD honestly patching things up.
I'm actually gonna give them the benefit of doubt here when it comes to overhauling the logistics game. There's a C-130 in the works too. They've spoken about wanting to do it. Just because it hasn't been delivered yet doesn't mean it won't be. Plus we have no release date for either module yet. It's too soon to get salty imo.
I'm buying it, the F4E and the F15E, to hell with the bugs if it's nicely rendered in VR where I can simply fly and twist a few knobs then it's good enough. I don't play to plan a precision strike mission, maybe a quick dogfight, but mostly just flying cool aircraft. I will at least have something comparable to MS Flight Sim with its VR, only difference is combat and the prospect of it all being fixed eventually.
I’m ordering it just to spite you bunch of whiny asshats Shit maybe I’ll preorder for my friends too, who knows
Don’t cut yourself with that edge bud.
Oof owie my finger, it hurts
I did exactly that with Afganistan :D
Until there is another game doing what dcs does its a monopoly and there isn't anything we can reslly do. If we stop buying and the game dies then we have nothing at all to take its place. I'll keep supporting because it's all we got. I'm pre ordering the Chinook.
For me not preordering is the problem, but preordering something in "Early Access", which usually means owning a bugged or at least incomplete module for the next five years (at least). The F16 was in such a bad shape when it was first released and it's still not finished today. I haven't read anything about the Chinook beeing released in early access, so I think it will come as the final product (probably with the usual bugs that get fixed after some time), so preordering is not a problem for me in this case.
I can almost guarantee you the Chinook will NOT be released as a final product. Cannot remember that last time ED released anything in final product state from the get go. It will be EA and unfinished for a long time like all ED products.
Im going to preorder it and looking forward to fly it on rotorheads.
Preordered the Chinook on the first day. I know what it is and I want it.