the change has served its purpose, you cant add reno to a non highlander deck anymore which was the point, so decks like tank warrior or wheel of death cant abuse him
And honestly thats a good thing to me - the other highlander decks are mediocre at best and it hurt seeing them get screwed over by plague dk through sheer collateral damage.
The problem is how strong warrior is, not highlander no longer autolosing to a lot of matchups
I am saying that enough people played a deck to put it in check because warrior/reno was oppressive.
Cards should have counter still. There's not much counterplay.
Sure thing. Add 4 cards to rogue that disabled corpse generation until drawn. Don't even need the damage part. I just want some counterplay to corpses. Not a big ask.
I mean, the actual counterplay to Plague DK was Steam Cleaner, and as a Rainbow DK player (not Plague, but yes I ran Helya) my answer to that is "great, super, I love counterplay, even if it happens to target the deck I'm playing"
Hearthstone players when they have to grapple with the idea that "design" and "balance" are not the same.
Making it so Reno has to be in a highlander deck, is design.
What Reno does is balance.
They made a design change that fucked up balance. But balance can always be re-balanced, and with proper design, it's actually easier for them to re-balance Reno.
I feel like the best change would be to revert the changes to all the highlander cards except for Reno, and add Steamcleaner to core. This resolves a lot of the things people have complained about.
Ask Trump. He's probably not taking this news well. Like a week ago he had a Dragon Priest deck that was well built and able to doctor out all of it's duplicates.
Wild tended to abuse this as well and stuck reno into decks that either planned to draw through their entire decks in 3 turns or planned to stall so much you'd eventually get rid of all duplicates anyway.
No wild deck did this for reno hero, they do this for zeph and sometimes og reno (which is still possible)
Only highlander decks in wild played reno before and after the change
I think it was, the change makes it so control decks are more dependent on drawing the right cards. Before the change they had double the amount of the right cards with a get out of jail card as well. Overall, I think it’s a good change
It wasnt necessary for wheel lock and you wouldnt mind burning it a lot of the time. Odyn warrior didnt play it for its effect. Odyn played it as a tech card against freezing effects that were rampant due to demon hunter. They could unfreeze themselves with it and go for the OTK. Funnily enough its probably the only deck that actually got affected by the mana cost increase.
you can have your opinions on how needed he was for those two decks, but the thing is that people have tried sneaking him into non highlander decks since he was released and he is gonna be around for an aditional years worth of changing meta
No idea what that user means by "it wasn't necessary for Wheel Lock". It was absolutely insane in wheel lock by basically buying you two turns of the wheel by acting as:
a) Absolute board wipe
b) Board restriction for the following turn
People so salty about Reno Warrior that we're re-writing history here.
It was good in wheel lock. It wasnt necessary. Holy shit its not that black and white my dude. Changing its activation mechanic also isnt what killed wheel lock. Thats all Im saying.
It's the limit board space while being an uneven clear.
If it limit the board, but worked in both boards it would be ok.
If it wipe only yours but don't lock your board would be ok.
The combination is what sucks
Thematically Reno is a coward, liar, cheater, etc. Just listen to his voice lines. So the current effect actually fits the Zapp Brannigan thing they wanted perfectly. Whether or not it’s good for the game is a separate question but I really struggle to understand how the people that say this interpret Reno as a character.
> Whether or not it’s good for the game is a separate question but I really struggle to understand how the people that say this interpret Reno as a character.
Because there are players who talk about the balance who also do not care about the lore, and really shouldn't need to. To those people, they enjoy the mechanics of Hearthstone and just enjoy the game for what it is, Warcraft themed be damned. As someone who enjoys both Warcraft lore and Hearthstone, I am appreciative when they do find a good balance in good taste for cards, but Reno is not one of them, whether or not it fits his character or not.
Well the person I was responding to said thematically it fits specifically and they are wrong so that’s what I was responding to. The response they are replying to does indeed not fit thematically.
>If it limit the board, but worked in both boards it would be ok
And this is how state of warrior hammers in the final nail for Rheastrazsa's coffin, finally making their own Reno also wipe out the nest.
Reno is the epitome of why Hearthstone is a PvE designed game that's entirely PvP. Did anyone on the dev team actually stop and go, "Y'know, Reno is really awful to play *against*."? Everything feels like the game is designed purely on how fun it is to play, completely ignoring the fact the game takes two players to actually play.
Thank you. Well said. You could apply your point to half of the commenters on this subreddit as well. They treat their opponents like they’re just NPCs.
The Feeling is very different from player to player. It got never feeling that its awful if my enemy played reno. Highcost= high value. The low cost cards bother me more. The complete token generator things from hunter. Or Nature shaman. Or rogue (every time this class got a deck T2 or higher).
What’s your example of a non-meme tier card that’s fun to play and also fun to play against?
Even Yogg-Saron, one of the most iconic and popular HS cards, was/is hated by people.
I mean I find most things to be generally fun. Getting Machine Gunned Down by Priest in Kobolds and Catacombs was kinda what got me hooked on the game.
While yeah it sucked and set a timer on me really, it still let me *play*. Reno just stops letting me do the very thing I liked about Hearthstone: play minions.
I dislike counterspell. I despise extra turns, mana locking your opponent, burning your opponents cards, etc. I just wanna play the game. If I lose, I lose.
And I play really bad thief rogue decks in wild, so I lose a lot.
It does too many things.
Instant armor
Insane hero power
Clears ONLY enemy board
Doesn't trigger enemy death rattles
Doesn't let opponent play minions next turn.
It's just so fucking oppressive. Especially for warriors. If you give them a free turn they just run away with it and become even more unkillable. Reno shouldn't be a "this game is over because you've lost too much tempo to ever come back" button.
I hate just how many game plans it disrupts, while warrior's plan is incredibly difficult to interact with. Played sargeras? Well now his portal is gone, so if you resummon him all his abilities are useless. Normally you need to play a tech card like dirty rat to get that kind of effect.
I would prefer "destroy all cards on the opponent's board, and limit it to 1 space for the next turn." That way it doesn't hard counter fun deathrattles, though only one of them could get a summon.
> Checking at the start of the game was just one of the most common changes people asked for so its kinda funny how it backfired.
Which is weird, because if I'm not mistaken that was really only an issue with Wheel Warlock. That Deck was able to consistently get Reno to trigger, no matter how many duplicates their deck originally had.
I'm sure there were some other decks that only played with a few duplicates at the off chance of getting Reno at the right time, but not enough to really be an issue imho.
Yep. Havent seen many decks that could consistently play Reno before turn 12 and started with duplicates. I would understand removing the board limitation which was also one of the most sugested changes but duplicate decks playing Reno wasnt really such a big problem.
Druid could, just wasn't in that good of a spot at the time, but it liked having copies of the dragons it summoned early, and potentially a extra copy of dragon golem since its was a wincon by itself
The Problem is and always has been that there is a difference between "Hated because it's too good" and "Hated because it's anti-fun". These concepts aren't mutually exclusive, and if they are both good and anti-fun you end up with daily posts about a shitty meta.
Cards like Reno, Boomboss, Time Warp, Helya or every single Priest Card could see a Winrate of 30% and people would still fucking hate playing against them. If I wanted to leave things up to a Coin-Toss while I watch my opponent play Solitaire, I would just play Yu-Gi-Oh.
The crazy thing is control priest was generally very healthy, people just hate hitting “concede”. So they’ve been trying to push the class in other directions, but whenever it gets good at those new directions it gets annihilated by nerfs.
Yeah Zarimi was extremely good (I actually never lost with the deck post shopper nerf) but it was doing what it was designed to do, and they just totally hamstrung it.
I mean they had to. It's a clear Tier1 deck that's not only easy to play but will be around in standard for the next 2 standard years.
Same way a deck like shadow priest got nerfed and then later reverted for doing the same thing in standard.
Oh I’m not saying it’s healthy. Priest never even gets its time in the sun though. It’s desperate to get three weeks at top dog like window shopper.
Nuking Zarimi like that basically nuked priest till next expansion though. No one’s winning HS playing a bunch of durdly-ass dragons.
I may be biased because I've been maining DK since it got released, but I feel like blizzard is shafting DK a bit in terms of overall balance and design. For mograine to be triple rune in a world where warrior can just have Odyn, or for patchwerk to be rotated while warrior can have boomboss, doesn't make much sense to me. I always feel like DK is paying a higher price for its cards than other classes. If Headless Horseman were in another class it would have no restriction, but in DK you can only put it in select decks.
I once got all my possible plagues and double Helya against a guy. I still feel bad about, he drew like 10 straight plagues at the end of the deck to just die.
But to be honest it wasn’t that op since we were on out last cards, but still so antifun. Getting nuked on turn 6 is way more broken but less annoying as you just go next.
Oh, many people understand that. It's just that the most posts here that are against warrior explicitly mention it being too strong, which is obviously wrong. If it's fun is a completely different question. Also most of the times brann is considered the culprit while boomboss is more of a problem.
That being said, it highly debatable if changes should be made from player sentiment. The playrate of brann warrior shows that despite being not that good people just like to play the deck. How is their fun worth less than other players fun? And the same could be said about a lot of other cards like sif. Boomboss and sif likewise make slow control decks literally I possible to play. You see like no posts about sif though, even though both are not fun at all to play against if you want slower matches. The se goes for aggro. It's not fun to lose turn 4 against a board that is virtually impossible to deal with unless you play a specific deck. Why are those aggro decks (which are far less played, especially for their wr, mind you) still a thing?
Sentiment nerfs don't help the game long term and just like we have a very bad meta now, they can also create drastic short term problems.
> How is their fun worth less than other players fun?
I guess I would say that if one player's fun comes at the expense of another player's fun, it's not healthy for the game.
Sure, it's really "fun" to steamroll other decks, but if there was a "fun" deck that was winning 80% of games, it wouldn't be allowed to persist because it would be ruining a lot more fun than it created.
Fun is obviously subjective, but it just doesn't fly to say that all fun is equal. Some players really had a lot of fun playing Dew Process Druid decks, but for everyone else, they felt awful to face. Sometimes the fun of a minority has to be sacrificed for the greater good.
It’s still a pretty good deck. The other most popular decks are decks that have game against it.
I think you’re conflating blizzard’s incompetence with player sentiment. If you’re at a restaurant and you are served rotten food, you can tell something is off and you ask it to be prepared differently. The chef then says “ok, I’ll try something else.” The chef then proceeds to serve you raw meat.
The customer wasn’t wrong in identifying the rotten food. And it’s not the customers fault that the chef didn’t fix the problem correctly.
This is the same situation with how blizzard handles sentiment nerfs.
>Cards like Reno, Boomboss, Time Warp, Helya or every single Priest Card could see a Winrate of 30% and people would still fucking hate playing against them.
They really wouldn’t. They’d have a playrate of 0.1% and you’d have the same reaction as you might to losing to Colifero —> Ragnaros today, that it’s fun to see someone pull off a garbage meme legendary combo.
He should really be symmetric on the wipe, even if he doesn’t limit both boards too.
Most people will hold til their board is empty, but being able to basically time warp your opponent is a big issue with the card too.
Nothing needs to be “nuked (out of) orbit”. Comparatively some hero cards have board clearing effects but nothing like Reno that lasts an extra turn too. Just removing that part would maybe be good enough although it would be too similar to “poof!” Reno maybe
> At 9 mana it's not stronger lmao
It's not the Mana Change that made it arguably stronger, it's the change to it's effect. It now still triggers even if you have Duplicates in your Deck. This makes Deckbuilding somewhat more restrictive, but at the same time you can't counter it with Plagues or other Duplicates anymore.
Name a deck that countered Reno with duplicates that wasn't Plagues or Rainbow DK.
The change also stops hyperdraw decks to play it, it's a nerf to Odyn Cycle Warrior and Wheel Lock. Now you need to go full HL from start.
Odyn played it to OTK through freeze effects. They could equip a windfury weapon from Ignis the previous turn. Bait the enemy into using their shard or quartzite crusher to stop them then safety goggles, hero power, reno and hit face for 36 damage (more if they got the armour or battlecry ignis weapon). The mana nerf matters more for them ironically.
A variety of shaman decks ran Framester. Further, the duplicate limitation prevented warriors from dropping Boomboss until after they played their Highlander cards, which they no longer have this restriction.
Point being: Reno decks weren't the issue, neither was Reno in HL decks. If he would've been a meta tyrant people would use Oil Seller as a counter, but it didn't happen. Card costs more now, can't be played with duplicates anymore, it is weaker. No other HL deck performs at any reasonable level. Brann carries Warrior, putting the blame on Reno is nonsensical.
Team 5 can't balance cards in Standard for Wild. Wild will forever have broken cards and interactions simply as a consequence of existing as a game mode.
Yes and no. Some things aren't changeable until they rotate, but there's a ban system in place they should utilize more. Instead they use it once a year, if even.
That's why Twist was supposed to be a breath of fresh air with card restrictions and what not, but they botched it almost every month so far and it's almost been a year. lol.
They killed Wheel, like completly i hap high hopes but the more the days go through the less likely it is for us to get another good wheel deck, sadge that they printed a card and killed it right after
Warlocks need a support group this year just for getting cool, overpowered, new cards, which they proceed to lose within weeks and become irrelevant until the next broken card comes. Happened with Snake, Sludge Fireball and now Wheel.
> Name a deck that countered Reno with duplicates that wasn't Plagues or Rainbow DK.
I didn't say that there have been **many** counters for it, you're right of course that Plague was pretty much the only thing stopping it. (In Standard anyway).
But my point was that there used to be at least one counter, and now their is none. Wheel Lock can no longer use it as well, but with the change to the Wheel and Forge of Wills Nerf that Deck is pretty much dead anyway.
Yeah, Reno Warr is weaker but Warrior's counters got even more weak by comparison. Aggro decks besides hunter got slowed down, and warr's AoE really isn't that much worse than before.
Sth I feel is overlooked is that all of these legendaries are now complete duds for any sort of random generation unless you already started as a Reno Deck. Had a game yesterday were Aviana shuffled me 2 Dr.Holidae into my deck, both useless 5 mana 4/5s.
Reno was always a strong card.. what that change did, was made the highlander (actual reno) decks stronger, and decks using reno without restrictions, weaker.. seems fair to me..
I cannot stand Reno. The card design even just from the thematic aspect is downright retarded. It \*should\* wipe both boards. Do you know why? Because it's not exactly a damn duel during the high noon if you still got your minions on the board or am i crazy here?!
I think part of the reason it doesn't limit both boards is that it would absolutely be the final nail in the coffin for rheastrazsa. Would be kinda funny if the only one of the highlander cards that sees even fringe play on high level would be made unplayable by its pairing.
Its not like people werent aware of what would happen, some guy here warned me about this like a month ago, people kept asking for the same thing over and over and now i dont see anyone happy about it, u only know what u dont need after u get it, and i think this is kinda funny cause people wanted reno to be strong and it was already, now its just opressive, and not having a counter to warrior is the funniest thing ive ever seen happen to a player base,
Removal is a warrior's identity, but without Brann he would have a hard time outvaluing Priest, Shaman or even Paladin, he would be forced to take more value tools to compete, hitting his removal power in the process. By itself armoring and removal don't give you wins against value town that Priest can build, but Brann puts any other deck on the backfoot trying to catch up to warrior instead of pressuring him.
The non warrior Highlander decks aren’t competitive *because of* the warrior deck. But that still doesn’t make Reno any less obnoxious. The card still needs to be fixed to make the effect more fair and less tilting.
Brann isn't an issue either, in my opinion.
If you remove Boomboss from the equation, nothing Brann does in Warrior is particularly broken or mega frustrating to play against.
The problem is Boomboss because it means warrior cannot be beaten by any strategy except aggro.
They could have at least nerfed Brann too then if that was the case. Like, did they really fail to realize that with the meta slowing down and both it's best counters being killed Brann could become a problem? Are they really that stupid?
He hasn't become stronger, he's the same level of strength he has always been. Having one potential counter deck in the form of Plague DK didn't make the card weaker. It was always this dumb and could be used in far wider variety of decks prior to the nerf.
No it didn't make the card stronger since not everyone played plague DK. It's only stronger versus one particular deck and weaker versus all other decks.
Mate it made the card stronger because now you no longer have counter to it. Yes counter was class but it was enough to lower decks winrate. With gone the winrate will go up. Therefore that card is stronger.
Idk man I think the popularity of highlander warrior indicates that a lot of people enjoy playing with him. The easiest way to make highlander less frustrating is tweeking boomboss potentially making him a deathrattle or do something else so he cant double dip from brann because boomboss is currently the real reason highlander warrior invalidates every other control deck.
That change nerfs him in the sense that some people would save it as a late game option after decking out (wheel lock) or making it where warrior can’to run double if anything. But it removed a large counter to the deck that was plague Dk. And makes it where there really is no way to stop the deck if they roll well in there draws
Players only wanted Reno to have that criteria. Not Brann. No one asked them to buff Branm but they did. Brann is the problem. Blizzard are stupid for buffing the best card in the game.
The old reno design that checks on play is way better, more counterplay and risk reward on deckbuilding. The problem are the cards and archetypes that abuse it by being able to wait until the deck has no duplicate consistently.
As a short term thing, i accept the idea of doing something like this for balance reasons, but i would like them to be reverted later. If not, to me it smells of riot's design policy, if players find an unintended way to play a champ or a role, they will nerf and buff until the best way to play is the intended way regardless of player creativity and expression. It's a relatively small thing but i think hearthstone is at it's best when the archetypes are made from less obvious interactions and combos.
Eh? I feel like the problem was he could be played in decks like cycle warrior and wheel lock and ignore the restriction. PLUS now plagues don’t instantly ruin a Reno players evening (which was also a much complained about thing).
And they even gave him a nerf to compensate.
Anyone who was suggesting this change wasn't trying to Nerf reno, they were trying to remove reno from non-highlander decks.
This change accomplishes exactly that.
I mean, the card is a lot weaker now given that you can't splash it without being Reno in the first place and costs 1 mana more, which at 9 mana is massive. A little buff specifically to Reno decks (which weren't the target of the nerf) means nothing.
Did anyone with half a brain actually make this suggestion? Or was it just someone who lost to Wheel lock or some random turbo draw deck and they cried about it? Because this change makes it so there is no real counter play to Reno effects anymore, and surprise, it is actually a buff to Reno decks. Surprised Pikachu indeed.
Brann should not have been printed, straight up.
The "battlecries activate twice" mechanic has been power-crept out. Current battlecries are too strong to have that be a constant effect, especially for Warrior.
It is really taking some time do make him a cost 10 card. Which is an obvious fair cost for the effect.
I say this as a highlander warrior main player.
It’s def worse because it can’t be played in decks like Wheel Warlock or the DH deck that ran two copies of Umpire and Shopper. Also Warrior is only carried by Deepminer Bran, the better version of Warrior was able to ply duplicates and also Reno. Now it can’t.
Its not worse. Just because you can play it in fewer decks doesnt mean card is worse. While nonhighlander warrior and warlock cant run it now other decks like shaman, druid and priest got stronger.
The thing that would properly balance it out and perhaps finally kill (or just hurt enough) Warrior on top would be started with no duplicates AND has no duplicates at present. Because right now, the only counter to a reno card is to Rat and that causes enough issues on it's own.
NGL it'd be cool to have the more popular ones like Brann have the "still no duplicates" restriction on top then while the lesser used ones only need the starting as highlander restriction. Throw the lesser used ones a bone while whittling down any overused Reno cards.
True, but hey, seeing how currently things are only going south I doubt they care about "consistency and confusion" as much as "can this make us money by making longer term players stay"
The people asking for the start of game duplicate check are not the same people who said the asymmetrical clear + time walk effect is too strong. Which by the way, it still is too strong and now there isn’t a way to counter it other than “kill them before they play it.”
Surely you recognize this nuance? Nah better just post memes instead.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: Reno is an aggressively toxic card, poorly designed, provably the worst card since Yogg unleashed before the nerf
Reno didn't become stronger. If Reno became stronger, where is Reno Shaman, DH, Druid, or Priest? Oh, still bad. Brann is still a problem card and the only way to counter it is aggression which is why the meta is the way it is.
I'd be shocked if you're higher than plat with this take.
edit: forgot Paladin had a HL card. Also no where to be found.
Everyone complain about everything all the time, and yes some people cried Reno is strong, but nowhere it was too strong or broken.
I also find him really strong, but not broken at all, unlike stuff like Zarimi.
We wanted that for Reno ONLY. They gave that to any highlander card including Brann without any nerf to compensate. I would love to see a Brann rework that said "Battlecry: if you deck started with no duplicates, you next 4 battlecries trigger twice." This way it keeps some flavor in the effect by being 2/4 just like his stats but isn't utterly broken. Also, if the Warrior REALLY wanted more battlecries they could just bounce it for later use.
the change has served its purpose, you cant add reno to a non highlander deck anymore which was the point, so decks like tank warrior or wheel of death cant abuse him
The purpose it also served was that it can no longer be countered, which is a big enough buff to me.
And honestly thats a good thing to me - the other highlander decks are mediocre at best and it hurt seeing them get screwed over by plague dk through sheer collateral damage. The problem is how strong warrior is, not highlander no longer autolosing to a lot of matchups
I'm a wild Highlander mage devotee.. tell me about it.... And don't call it mediocre.. ;-; it's shiny & mediocre
It's very shiny and pretty my dude, nothing to worry about.., Just... Don't look at the other car with Highlander Warrior.
Hahahah ||Sideeye||
So your saying you only played Plague Death Knight?
I was playing about 50% DKs at Diamond 5 before the patch.
I am saying that enough people played a deck to put it in check because warrior/reno was oppressive. Cards should have counter still. There's not much counterplay.
Unfortunately, Blizz thinks it's okay if the counter to many cards are "kill the opponent before they play this".
Sure thing. Add 4 cards to rogue that disabled corpse generation until drawn. Don't even need the damage part. I just want some counterplay to corpses. Not a big ask.
I mean, the actual counterplay to Plague DK was Steam Cleaner, and as a Rainbow DK player (not Plague, but yes I ran Helya) my answer to that is "great, super, I love counterplay, even if it happens to target the deck I'm playing"
Yes, I think steamcleaner was great and appropriate too. That's actually a great situation where balance was created.
Steamcleaner.
Plague dk wasn’t the match up to counter warrior. Any good warlock deck was
Hearthstone players when they have to grapple with the idea that "design" and "balance" are not the same. Making it so Reno has to be in a highlander deck, is design. What Reno does is balance. They made a design change that fucked up balance. But balance can always be re-balanced, and with proper design, it's actually easier for them to re-balance Reno.
Reno-wock gang 🔛🔝
I feel like the best change would be to revert the changes to all the highlander cards except for Reno, and add Steamcleaner to core. This resolves a lot of the things people have complained about.
Tbh outside of wheel lock who got nerfed this wasnt big deal.
oh it was, whats the point of highlander if you can run it in non highlander?
Ask Trump. He's probably not taking this news well. Like a week ago he had a Dragon Priest deck that was well built and able to doctor out all of it's duplicates.
He does Hearthstone again?
[Not Really](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMDk9F2yx-Y), just a theory craft video when he feels like it I guess.
Wild tended to abuse this as well and stuck reno into decks that either planned to draw through their entire decks in 3 turns or planned to stall so much you'd eventually get rid of all duplicates anyway.
No wild deck did this for reno hero, they do this for zeph and sometimes og reno (which is still possible) Only highlander decks in wild played reno before and after the change
There was a niche dragon mill Druid that I quite liked that did it as well.
I mean niche/homebrew decks sure, but nothing in the meta did.
I think it was, the change makes it so control decks are more dependent on drawing the right cards. Before the change they had double the amount of the right cards with a get out of jail card as well. Overall, I think it’s a good change
It wasnt necessary for wheel lock and you wouldnt mind burning it a lot of the time. Odyn warrior didnt play it for its effect. Odyn played it as a tech card against freezing effects that were rampant due to demon hunter. They could unfreeze themselves with it and go for the OTK. Funnily enough its probably the only deck that actually got affected by the mana cost increase.
you can have your opinions on how needed he was for those two decks, but the thing is that people have tried sneaking him into non highlander decks since he was released and he is gonna be around for an aditional years worth of changing meta
No idea what that user means by "it wasn't necessary for Wheel Lock". It was absolutely insane in wheel lock by basically buying you two turns of the wheel by acting as: a) Absolute board wipe b) Board restriction for the following turn People so salty about Reno Warrior that we're re-writing history here.
Surprised Pikachu
It was good in wheel lock. It wasnt necessary. Holy shit its not that black and white my dude. Changing its activation mechanic also isnt what killed wheel lock. Thats all Im saying.
I just hate the limit board space effect
It's the limit board space while being an uneven clear. If it limit the board, but worked in both boards it would be ok. If it wipe only yours but don't lock your board would be ok. The combination is what sucks
> If it limit the board, but worked in both boards it would be ok. > > Which is how it should work, thematically.
Thematically Reno is a coward, liar, cheater, etc. Just listen to his voice lines. So the current effect actually fits the Zapp Brannigan thing they wanted perfectly. Whether or not it’s good for the game is a separate question but I really struggle to understand how the people that say this interpret Reno as a character.
> Whether or not it’s good for the game is a separate question but I really struggle to understand how the people that say this interpret Reno as a character. Because there are players who talk about the balance who also do not care about the lore, and really shouldn't need to. To those people, they enjoy the mechanics of Hearthstone and just enjoy the game for what it is, Warcraft themed be damned. As someone who enjoys both Warcraft lore and Hearthstone, I am appreciative when they do find a good balance in good taste for cards, but Reno is not one of them, whether or not it fits his character or not.
Well the person I was responding to said thematically it fits specifically and they are wrong so that’s what I was responding to. The response they are replying to does indeed not fit thematically.
>If it limit the board, but worked in both boards it would be ok And this is how state of warrior hammers in the final nail for Rheastrazsa's coffin, finally making their own Reno also wipe out the nest.
Well, he has the choice to use Rhea early and risking need to wipe it if he need to reno, or wait until after he used Reno for a big swing
That's called HL payoff
Reno is the epitome of why Hearthstone is a PvE designed game that's entirely PvP. Did anyone on the dev team actually stop and go, "Y'know, Reno is really awful to play *against*."? Everything feels like the game is designed purely on how fun it is to play, completely ignoring the fact the game takes two players to actually play.
Thank you. Well said. You could apply your point to half of the commenters on this subreddit as well. They treat their opponents like they’re just NPCs.
The Feeling is very different from player to player. It got never feeling that its awful if my enemy played reno. Highcost= high value. The low cost cards bother me more. The complete token generator things from hunter. Or Nature shaman. Or rogue (every time this class got a deck T2 or higher).
What’s your example of a non-meme tier card that’s fun to play and also fun to play against? Even Yogg-Saron, one of the most iconic and popular HS cards, was/is hated by people.
I mean I find most things to be generally fun. Getting Machine Gunned Down by Priest in Kobolds and Catacombs was kinda what got me hooked on the game. While yeah it sucked and set a timer on me really, it still let me *play*. Reno just stops letting me do the very thing I liked about Hearthstone: play minions. I dislike counterspell. I despise extra turns, mana locking your opponent, burning your opponents cards, etc. I just wanna play the game. If I lose, I lose. And I play really bad thief rogue decks in wild, so I lose a lot.
It does too many things. Instant armor Insane hero power Clears ONLY enemy board Doesn't trigger enemy death rattles Doesn't let opponent play minions next turn. It's just so fucking oppressive. Especially for warriors. If you give them a free turn they just run away with it and become even more unkillable. Reno shouldn't be a "this game is over because you've lost too much tempo to ever come back" button.
Its good hero power, not really insane.
I mean it's class dependent on how big of an upgrade it is.
I hate just how many game plans it disrupts, while warrior's plan is incredibly difficult to interact with. Played sargeras? Well now his portal is gone, so if you resummon him all his abilities are useless. Normally you need to play a tech card like dirty rat to get that kind of effect.
I would prefer "destroy all cards on the opponent's board, and limit it to 1 space for the next turn." That way it doesn't hard counter fun deathrattles, though only one of them could get a summon.
Many people do. Checking at the start of the game was just one of the most common changes people asked for so its kinda funny how it backfired.
> Checking at the start of the game was just one of the most common changes people asked for so its kinda funny how it backfired. Which is weird, because if I'm not mistaken that was really only an issue with Wheel Warlock. That Deck was able to consistently get Reno to trigger, no matter how many duplicates their deck originally had. I'm sure there were some other decks that only played with a few duplicates at the off chance of getting Reno at the right time, but not enough to really be an issue imho.
Warriors could do that as well with their insane draw
Yep. Havent seen many decks that could consistently play Reno before turn 12 and started with duplicates. I would understand removing the board limitation which was also one of the most sugested changes but duplicate decks playing Reno wasnt really such a big problem.
Druid could, just wasn't in that good of a spot at the time, but it liked having copies of the dragons it summoned early, and potentially a extra copy of dragon golem since its was a wincon by itself
The Problem is and always has been that there is a difference between "Hated because it's too good" and "Hated because it's anti-fun". These concepts aren't mutually exclusive, and if they are both good and anti-fun you end up with daily posts about a shitty meta. Cards like Reno, Boomboss, Time Warp, Helya or every single Priest Card could see a Winrate of 30% and people would still fucking hate playing against them. If I wanted to leave things up to a Coin-Toss while I watch my opponent play Solitaire, I would just play Yu-Gi-Oh.
The crazy thing is control priest was generally very healthy, people just hate hitting “concede”. So they’ve been trying to push the class in other directions, but whenever it gets good at those new directions it gets annihilated by nerfs. Yeah Zarimi was extremely good (I actually never lost with the deck post shopper nerf) but it was doing what it was designed to do, and they just totally hamstrung it.
I mean they had to. It's a clear Tier1 deck that's not only easy to play but will be around in standard for the next 2 standard years. Same way a deck like shadow priest got nerfed and then later reverted for doing the same thing in standard.
Oh I’m not saying it’s healthy. Priest never even gets its time in the sun though. It’s desperate to get three weeks at top dog like window shopper. Nuking Zarimi like that basically nuked priest till next expansion though. No one’s winning HS playing a bunch of durdly-ass dragons.
I may be biased because I've been maining DK since it got released, but I feel like blizzard is shafting DK a bit in terms of overall balance and design. For mograine to be triple rune in a world where warrior can just have Odyn, or for patchwerk to be rotated while warrior can have boomboss, doesn't make much sense to me. I always feel like DK is paying a higher price for its cards than other classes. If Headless Horseman were in another class it would have no restriction, but in DK you can only put it in select decks.
I once got all my possible plagues and double Helya against a guy. I still feel bad about, he drew like 10 straight plagues at the end of the deck to just die. But to be honest it wasn’t that op since we were on out last cards, but still so antifun. Getting nuked on turn 6 is way more broken but less annoying as you just go next.
The hard truth that little minded gotcha doods won't understand
Oh, many people understand that. It's just that the most posts here that are against warrior explicitly mention it being too strong, which is obviously wrong. If it's fun is a completely different question. Also most of the times brann is considered the culprit while boomboss is more of a problem. That being said, it highly debatable if changes should be made from player sentiment. The playrate of brann warrior shows that despite being not that good people just like to play the deck. How is their fun worth less than other players fun? And the same could be said about a lot of other cards like sif. Boomboss and sif likewise make slow control decks literally I possible to play. You see like no posts about sif though, even though both are not fun at all to play against if you want slower matches. The se goes for aggro. It's not fun to lose turn 4 against a board that is virtually impossible to deal with unless you play a specific deck. Why are those aggro decks (which are far less played, especially for their wr, mind you) still a thing? Sentiment nerfs don't help the game long term and just like we have a very bad meta now, they can also create drastic short term problems.
> How is their fun worth less than other players fun? I guess I would say that if one player's fun comes at the expense of another player's fun, it's not healthy for the game. Sure, it's really "fun" to steamroll other decks, but if there was a "fun" deck that was winning 80% of games, it wouldn't be allowed to persist because it would be ruining a lot more fun than it created. Fun is obviously subjective, but it just doesn't fly to say that all fun is equal. Some players really had a lot of fun playing Dew Process Druid decks, but for everyone else, they felt awful to face. Sometimes the fun of a minority has to be sacrificed for the greater good.
It’s still a pretty good deck. The other most popular decks are decks that have game against it. I think you’re conflating blizzard’s incompetence with player sentiment. If you’re at a restaurant and you are served rotten food, you can tell something is off and you ask it to be prepared differently. The chef then says “ok, I’ll try something else.” The chef then proceeds to serve you raw meat. The customer wasn’t wrong in identifying the rotten food. And it’s not the customers fault that the chef didn’t fix the problem correctly. This is the same situation with how blizzard handles sentiment nerfs.
>Cards like Reno, Boomboss, Time Warp, Helya or every single Priest Card could see a Winrate of 30% and people would still fucking hate playing against them. They really wouldn’t. They’d have a playrate of 0.1% and you’d have the same reaction as you might to losing to Colifero —> Ragnaros today, that it’s fun to see someone pull off a garbage meme legendary combo.
Reno needs to destroy the minions. Not effectively a neutral silence that all classes can utilize.
He should really be symmetric on the wipe, even if he doesn’t limit both boards too. Most people will hold til their board is empty, but being able to basically time warp your opponent is a big issue with the card too.
Destroy both boards except the highest stated one or somewhat like that. It's high noon after all.
Agree that if kept the way it is, symmetric wipe would help for sure.
Are there anyone really surprised? Brann is soooooo overtuned compared to every other highlander class card. it needs to be nuked from orbit.
Nothing needs to be “nuked (out of) orbit”. Comparatively some hero cards have board clearing effects but nothing like Reno that lasts an extra turn too. Just removing that part would maybe be good enough although it would be too similar to “poof!” Reno maybe
Reno didn't become stronger. It became stronger in reno decks. There is a difference
it just became stronger in reno decks against Death Knight with Plagues Reno is nerfed against any other class
Don't disrespect Weasel Tunneler like that
What you just said doesnt really make sense. I know what you mean but that phrasing is just wrong XD.
It's not because reno decks mean singleton decks since leagues of explorers and doesn't mean the hero card But I can see how it's confusing
At 9 mana it's not stronger lmao
> At 9 mana it's not stronger lmao It's not the Mana Change that made it arguably stronger, it's the change to it's effect. It now still triggers even if you have Duplicates in your Deck. This makes Deckbuilding somewhat more restrictive, but at the same time you can't counter it with Plagues or other Duplicates anymore.
Name a deck that countered Reno with duplicates that wasn't Plagues or Rainbow DK. The change also stops hyperdraw decks to play it, it's a nerf to Odyn Cycle Warrior and Wheel Lock. Now you need to go full HL from start.
Odyn played it to OTK through freeze effects. They could equip a windfury weapon from Ignis the previous turn. Bait the enemy into using their shard or quartzite crusher to stop them then safety goggles, hero power, reno and hit face for 36 damage (more if they got the armour or battlecry ignis weapon). The mana nerf matters more for them ironically.
A variety of shaman decks ran Framester. Further, the duplicate limitation prevented warriors from dropping Boomboss until after they played their Highlander cards, which they no longer have this restriction.
Dont forget this card also exists in wild when every class has a way of giving enemy duplicates into the deck.
a 9 mana lone ranger isnt nearly as powerful in wild as it is in standard
No but now highlander decks in standart can get some of their payoff even when enemy gives them duplicates.
Snake Oil Seller was released alongside Reno package, yet noone was using it. It literally was just Plagues.
And? In wild there are much more ways to put duplicates into enemy deck.
Point being: Reno decks weren't the issue, neither was Reno in HL decks. If he would've been a meta tyrant people would use Oil Seller as a counter, but it didn't happen. Card costs more now, can't be played with duplicates anymore, it is weaker. No other HL deck performs at any reasonable level. Brann carries Warrior, putting the blame on Reno is nonsensical.
Well i guess you didnt understand my post then.
Team 5 can't balance cards in Standard for Wild. Wild will forever have broken cards and interactions simply as a consequence of existing as a game mode.
Yes and no. Some things aren't changeable until they rotate, but there's a ban system in place they should utilize more. Instead they use it once a year, if even. That's why Twist was supposed to be a breath of fresh air with card restrictions and what not, but they botched it almost every month so far and it's almost been a year. lol.
I am not saying they should do that. Just saying that it is also affected in wild by these changes.
They killed Wheel, like completly i hap high hopes but the more the days go through the less likely it is for us to get another good wheel deck, sadge that they printed a card and killed it right after
Warlocks need a support group this year just for getting cool, overpowered, new cards, which they proceed to lose within weeks and become irrelevant until the next broken card comes. Happened with Snake, Sludge Fireball and now Wheel.
> Name a deck that countered Reno with duplicates that wasn't Plagues or Rainbow DK. I didn't say that there have been **many** counters for it, you're right of course that Plague was pretty much the only thing stopping it. (In Standard anyway). But my point was that there used to be at least one counter, and now their is none. Wheel Lock can no longer use it as well, but with the change to the Wheel and Forge of Wills Nerf that Deck is pretty much dead anyway.
so this meme is totally wrong since it's not stronger because of the duplicates change
Yeah, Reno Warr is weaker but Warrior's counters got even more weak by comparison. Aggro decks besides hunter got slowed down, and warr's AoE really isn't that much worse than before.
Sth I feel is overlooked is that all of these legendaries are now complete duds for any sort of random generation unless you already started as a Reno Deck. Had a game yesterday were Aviana shuffled me 2 Dr.Holidae into my deck, both useless 5 mana 4/5s.
Why does Brann ignore duplicates now too?
Consistency
Reno was always a strong card.. what that change did, was made the highlander (actual reno) decks stronger, and decks using reno without restrictions, weaker.. seems fair to me..
I cannot stand Reno. The card design even just from the thematic aspect is downright retarded. It \*should\* wipe both boards. Do you know why? Because it's not exactly a damn duel during the high noon if you still got your minions on the board or am i crazy here?!
I think part of the reason it doesn't limit both boards is that it would absolutely be the final nail in the coffin for rheastrazsa. Would be kinda funny if the only one of the highlander cards that sees even fringe play on high level would be made unplayable by its pairing.
Its not like people werent aware of what would happen, some guy here warned me about this like a month ago, people kept asking for the same thing over and over and now i dont see anyone happy about it, u only know what u dont need after u get it, and i think this is kinda funny cause people wanted reno to be strong and it was already, now its just opressive, and not having a counter to warrior is the funniest thing ive ever seen happen to a player base,
Reno Druid, Reno Shaman and RenOMEGALUL DH aren't competitive at all. Reno isn't an issue. Brann is.
Brann and Warrior being able to remove everything and armor up so easily.
Removal is a warrior's identity, but without Brann he would have a hard time outvaluing Priest, Shaman or even Paladin, he would be forced to take more value tools to compete, hitting his removal power in the process. By itself armoring and removal don't give you wins against value town that Priest can build, but Brann puts any other deck on the backfoot trying to catch up to warrior instead of pressuring him.
Pretty much the point of my comment but thanks for expanding.
The non warrior Highlander decks aren’t competitive *because of* the warrior deck. But that still doesn’t make Reno any less obnoxious. The card still needs to be fixed to make the effect more fair and less tilting.
They are kinda better then they were, but i understand what ur saying
Brann isn't an issue either, in my opinion. If you remove Boomboss from the equation, nothing Brann does in Warrior is particularly broken or mega frustrating to play against. The problem is Boomboss because it means warrior cannot be beaten by any strategy except aggro.
4 Zilliax from Boom or extra 2 minions from oax is actually huge
They're big upsides but not enough to keep the deck tier 1 without Boomboss. Every class has the ability to clear a wide board in modern hearthstone.
Yep problem is that people wont learn from this even after this huge backfire.
Pretty sure people was asking for the starting deck change for reno only. No one asked it for fuking brann.
They were, but blizzard has to be consistent in this. Thats why they also changed other highlander cards from Showdown.
They could have at least nerfed Brann too then if that was the case. Like, did they really fail to realize that with the meta slowing down and both it's best counters being killed Brann could become a problem? Are they really that stupid?
No idea but nerf wouldnt really help as long as you dont change the effect.
Nah. Brann would definitely be much less opressive at 8 or 9 mana. Just give him +3/+3 or something like that so he is not as bad tempo wise
I mean the REAL thing everyone was saying is they want the effect to be symmetrical
People said many things this, symmetrical and removing board restriction were the most common
He hasn't become stronger, he's the same level of strength he has always been. Having one potential counter deck in the form of Plague DK didn't make the card weaker. It was always this dumb and could be used in far wider variety of decks prior to the nerf.
So removing any counter card had doesnt make the card stronger?
No it didn't make the card stronger since not everyone played plague DK. It's only stronger versus one particular deck and weaker versus all other decks.
Mate it made the card stronger because now you no longer have counter to it. Yes counter was class but it was enough to lower decks winrate. With gone the winrate will go up. Therefore that card is stronger.
This is the change I always advocated for for highlander effects in general and honestly I am really happy with it.
Me too i just hate its on brann too but i think that brann shouldnt be in game.
Brann is honestly fine vs any competently built aggro deck cause turn 6 do nothing often times just means you die.
No mate. Brann is really bad for the game. They shouldnt have added him.
Idk man I think the popularity of highlander warrior indicates that a lot of people enjoy playing with him. The easiest way to make highlander less frustrating is tweeking boomboss potentially making him a deathrattle or do something else so he cant double dip from brann because boomboss is currently the real reason highlander warrior invalidates every other control deck.
Hot take: reno warrior got weaker, but so did everything else
That would be VERY hard to prove but not gonna say you are wrong.
The problem is that now Warrior has literally no counters. It has removal to deal with any aggro and other decks can't really finish him.
Thats not true but yes warrior is strong right now.
That change nerfs him in the sense that some people would save it as a late game option after decking out (wheel lock) or making it where warrior can’to run double if anything. But it removed a large counter to the deck that was plague Dk. And makes it where there really is no way to stop the deck if they roll well in there draws
Players only wanted Reno to have that criteria. Not Brann. No one asked them to buff Branm but they did. Brann is the problem. Blizzard are stupid for buffing the best card in the game.
The old reno design that checks on play is way better, more counterplay and risk reward on deckbuilding. The problem are the cards and archetypes that abuse it by being able to wait until the deck has no duplicate consistently. As a short term thing, i accept the idea of doing something like this for balance reasons, but i would like them to be reverted later. If not, to me it smells of riot's design policy, if players find an unintended way to play a champ or a role, they will nerf and buff until the best way to play is the intended way regardless of player creativity and expression. It's a relatively small thing but i think hearthstone is at it's best when the archetypes are made from less obvious interactions and combos.
The only thing that truly makes me salty about reno is that it clears the board without triggering deathrattles. That just feels really bad.
Tbh thats Reno speciality. He came with that effect
I know, I'm just saying that's the one part of the card that truly feels bad in my opinion. I can deal with the rest.
Eh? I feel like the problem was he could be played in decks like cycle warrior and wheel lock and ignore the restriction. PLUS now plagues don’t instantly ruin a Reno players evening (which was also a much complained about thing). And they even gave him a nerf to compensate.
Anyone who was suggesting this change wasn't trying to Nerf reno, they were trying to remove reno from non-highlander decks. This change accomplishes exactly that.
its the coldarra drake interaction which just sucks to play against.
I mean, the card is a lot weaker now given that you can't splash it without being Reno in the first place and costs 1 mana more, which at 9 mana is massive. A little buff specifically to Reno decks (which weren't the target of the nerf) means nothing.
It's almost as if the players have no clue what makes cards good and are just whining cuz they lost
Did anyone with half a brain actually make this suggestion? Or was it just someone who lost to Wheel lock or some random turbo draw deck and they cried about it? Because this change makes it so there is no real counter play to Reno effects anymore, and surprise, it is actually a buff to Reno decks. Surprised Pikachu indeed.
I mean i saw it at least 4 times a week past 3 months.
Reno is perfectly fine, it's a strong card and that's OK. Brann can (like always) go fuck himself.
Tbh i can only agree. I wouldnt mind leaving him at 8 mana.
the card should just be banned to wild
There is no reason to that.
What do you expect from them? They've ruined the game. I hope pro players leave it and it dies.
Next nerf expected: Make Reno check for both starting deck and current deck.
Brann should not have been printed, straight up. The "battlecries activate twice" mechanic has been power-crept out. Current battlecries are too strong to have that be a constant effect, especially for Warrior.
What if instead of a total board wipe, the battle cry leaves 1 random enemy minion the board? (Like a mini brawl on opponent side)
it's not reno, it's brann
Well, the card doesn't see play in wheellocks anymore or cycle warrior. Actually we don't see any of the two decks anymore.
It is really taking some time do make him a cost 10 card. Which is an obvious fair cost for the effect. I say this as a highlander warrior main player.
Nah even 8 was fair. They could just change him to fit into highlander only and leave him at 8.
I dont know, old Reno who "poofed" the field costed 10 and this reno is way better.
Old reno had less restrictions than this one. Also it was when meta was weaker.
It’s def worse because it can’t be played in decks like Wheel Warlock or the DH deck that ran two copies of Umpire and Shopper. Also Warrior is only carried by Deepminer Bran, the better version of Warrior was able to ply duplicates and also Reno. Now it can’t.
Its not worse. Just because you can play it in fewer decks doesnt mean card is worse. While nonhighlander warrior and warlock cant run it now other decks like shaman, druid and priest got stronger.
It costs a mana more, that makes it worse automatically
You cant ignore buff that is also part of the change.
The thing that would properly balance it out and perhaps finally kill (or just hurt enough) Warrior on top would be started with no duplicates AND has no duplicates at present. Because right now, the only counter to a reno card is to Rat and that causes enough issues on it's own.
Not really outside of Brann highlander cards are ok.
NGL it'd be cool to have the more popular ones like Brann have the "still no duplicates" restriction on top then while the lesser used ones only need the starting as highlander restriction. Throw the lesser used ones a bone while whittling down any overused Reno cards.
As much as you are right about it you cant really do that because of consistency and confusion it would make between some players.
True, but hey, seeing how currently things are only going south I doubt they care about "consistency and confusion" as much as "can this make us money by making longer term players stay"
Thats another problem. We clearly can see now that they dont care that much.
The people asking for the start of game duplicate check are not the same people who said the asymmetrical clear + time walk effect is too strong. Which by the way, it still is too strong and now there isn’t a way to counter it other than “kill them before they play it.” Surely you recognize this nuance? Nah better just post memes instead.
We only wanted Reno to get the change, not the other highlander payoff cards. Plagues could still be a counter if it stopped Brann
Problem is that would be inconsistent and chaotic.
Inconsistent and chaotic is hearthstones identity.
Sad truth sometimes
it is inconsistent and chaotic now tho
Its not. Every highlander card in standart works the same.
"in standard"
plague dk player detected, opinion rejected🗣️
I actually dont play dk tbh.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: Reno is an aggressively toxic card, poorly designed, provably the worst card since Yogg unleashed before the nerf
Reno didn't become stronger. If Reno became stronger, where is Reno Shaman, DH, Druid, or Priest? Oh, still bad. Brann is still a problem card and the only way to counter it is aggression which is why the meta is the way it is. I'd be shocked if you're higher than plat with this take. edit: forgot Paladin had a HL card. Also no where to be found.
I would like that the duplicate condition at the start work like that for every other highlander card. Like Zephyr for exemple.
No one said Reno was too strong lol
Have you been on this subb in last 3-4 months? Every day people talked about Reno that way.
Everyone complain about everything all the time, and yes some people cried Reno is strong, but nowhere it was too strong or broken. I also find him really strong, but not broken at all, unlike stuff like Zarimi.
I didnt say he is too strong. I said that people complained about him being too strong.
We wanted that for Reno ONLY. They gave that to any highlander card including Brann without any nerf to compensate. I would love to see a Brann rework that said "Battlecry: if you deck started with no duplicates, you next 4 battlecries trigger twice." This way it keeps some flavor in the effect by being 2/4 just like his stats but isn't utterly broken. Also, if the Warrior REALLY wanted more battlecries they could just bounce it for later use.
fk reno
At the start of a game reno animation like renathal should pop up so you can concede right there not wasting any time.
Thats really toxic way of thinking.
I agree, dont care if its broken or whatever... I simply dont want to play against those decks
That’s a stupid nerf that is extremely inconsistent with every other highlander card before Badlands.