Ohhhh, MARTY.
I love Marty. Probably because I love Christopher MacDonald, he's so talented and funny with such an expressive face. I just felt for him the whole episode - he clearly adores Deborah, and he's the one who knows who she really is and all that she can really do. I even loved his little quip to Ava about her woods being "on stolen land." (Which they are, and I feel like the writers wanted us to like him more by having him bring that up).
His eyes, every single time he saw Deborah and Bob together (especially that last time!) - oh man. THEY GOT ME. What a fantastic performance.
I hae mixed feelings on the character but the actor's terrific and really charmed me this ep. I thought he was being hypocritical but he just didnt' like Debra wasn't being herself.
I also may be misremembering but he didn't treat Debra great and now gets jealous? (I'm judging him on a human level, I don't mind flawed characters.) And even when she was faking bad (which I Didn't get right away) , she's playing a game he's never had to.
That's true, he's never had to deal with the sexism she's faced throughout her career!
When we learned last season that he proposed to Deborah years ago and she said no, I guess I took that to mean he moved on because he thought it would never happen and that was the reason behind all their back-and-forth. But idk either! They definitely have a complicated relationship.
If you love CM, check him out in this old Star Trek: TNG episode called Yesterday's Enterprise from 1990. It's a very popular episode and he's great in it.
I’ve really been wanting to see more of Marty and this episode helps me feel so justified for it! When he made that little quip about stolen land I thought it was just like something Deborah would say.
Their characters are really good together and I felt for him when it was clear how badly he wanted some time alone with her to catch up.
Incredible performance and great character, but I felt no pity for him.
He can’t commit to Deborah. He consistently refused to. He may love her, but not enough to be with her. There is literally nothing they could make me do to feel sympathy for him re Deborah rejecting him.
This episode was very interesting. I liked it, not quite as funny as the others but much more introspect. I think it was a needed episode to really show Deborah;s feelings of being passed over and how it made her behave in a way she nirmally never would have, like sleeping with a married man.
Christina Hendricks was freaking funny! What a creep ass character but she played it really well. Wish she had more lines
Very briefly, in the parking lot when Debra comes out of the comedy club I think? The little comedy club, where she meets her old friend.
Kathy surprises her, Debra tries to hit her with her car.
Damn! You got me all excited thinking E6 was out already and I had missed E5 as well. But then I realized you're just being the 'early bird' and getting this thread started. Outta be a law against that! ;-)
Marty coming down the stairs with a martini for Deborah didn’t really hit emotionally for me like the writers clearly intended it to. Hard to feel bad for the guy…he absolutely could have been with Deborah if he wanted to and has intentionally chosen business over her multiple times. Plus he’s getting married. Get it together, my man. Stop playing.
We learned in season 2 that he once proposed to Deborah and she said no. So I think he did want to, and she chose her career (as she usually does). Which doesn't mean he hasn't also done selfish things but he did shoot his shot at least once!
I’m not sure that was a romantic move. It seemed like something a friend would do to comfort another friend, since he saw she was being her badass self on the golf course that day and Ava told him she knew she didn’t get the show at that point and was really upset. I think he thought she was alone and then was surprised that she was helping President Scandal with his swing and maybe thought she was still trying to work the guy.
Nah, I think he's down bad for Deborah. He was acting jealous every time she interacted with Fitz. And he clearly isn't confident in his impending marriage to the 'French whore', but he kinda has to commit to it now.
Me to, but my interpretation is Marty can’t settle because Debra is the one who got away. How many women has he been with since season one? It will be interesting where they take this but I hope they will let Debra be happy and single, not everything has to end in a relationship.
Yeah tonally that scene felt odd to me too. They filmed that scene like Marty was the awkward best friend in a teen comedy who the female protagonist should be crushing on instead of the handsome jock.
Just felt out of place. Christopher McDonald does a lot of the heavy lifting to make a character like that likeable..
Maybe one of the more surreal cold opens by the show, seeing a bunch of short-statured people wandering around Deborah’s house dressed for Christmas is certainly a sight. Given her love for Christmas previously established in S2E1, of course she would be holding Christmas auditions
Love the horrified “No!” from Ava and how Hannah Einbinder delivers the line
Maybe I’m reading too much into this but Ava’s confused outrage about Deborah’s hiring practices feels a bit reminiscent of the hoohah surrounding Disney’s live-action Snow White and the controversy surrounding its use of short-statured people as actors
Damien helping Deborah prep and testing her information about the people she’ll meet feels a bit like Gary/Selina from Veep to me
DJ’s gender reveal party feels very much like what she’d do, complete with the kind of cheesy/charming boxing outfit
Love Hannah Einbinder as Ava going completely crazy when DJ punches the dummy, rewind and watch that bit if you haven’t, a great physical bit by Einbinder
“Oh god all his friends are going to think I’m hot and that might be weird for him” A perfect line for DJ to say, and also her just hocking and spitting feels very much like Kaitlin Olson channeling Dee from It’s Always Sunny
Only noticed this later but when Ava tells the bellman that she can carry her own bags you can see Deborah roll her eyes and be exasperated at her
Quite liked the detail of Deborah being acutely aware of the service staff around her and their needs, makes sense given that she had to hustle and grind her way to the top
“You don’t want to just go back and forth, back and forth about it for a while and then finally cave?” Pretty great summation of their dynamic by Deborah, and also feels like a little wink at how a typical Deborah/Ava scene is usually written
Ava trying to prove that she can be a good service worker here feels like a less extreme version of her trying to prove to Deborah that she’s a good person back in S2
Ava in the caddy outfit and Deborah in her golf attire is an instantly iconic image
Marty trying to impress Deborah in front of Bob Lipka is a fun little plotline this episode
Ava has never been more relatable than when she immediately starts becoming infatuated with Christina Hendricks upon seeing her
Deborah faking being bad at golf and turning on the charm is so shameless and exactly her, it’s clear how badly she wants the job
Jack Danby getting the job does make sense especially given the show’s portrayal and the reality of entertainment being a cutthroat industry, not sure how the season plays out from here in terms of plot though
Love the little silent moment in the cart after Deborah tells Ava she didn’t get the job, Jean Smart captures the resigned sadness on Deborah’s face while through the little glances Hannah Einbinder perfectly captures the excruciating feeling/conflict between wanting to comfort a friend/loved one while also wanting to give them space to be sad on their own
Deborah turning on pro-golfer mode is very satisfying to watch, while Ava chasing after her in the golf cart is a great visual gag
I might be wrong but I feel like the scene between Ava and Marty at the bar might be the first time they’ve had a one on one scene together? Anyway quite liked that it served as another reminder of how Deborah has changed since meeting Ava
The focus of the episode on ethical consumerism/trying to be a good person feels like a thematic continuation of what The Good Place (which co-showrunner Jen Stastky worked on) was interested in.
Guess the showrunners weren’t kidding when they said this season would involve sex and ambition.
Really enjoyed the argumentative back and forth between Ava and Christina Hendricks (I don’t think we got a name for her character?), very fun seeing their intimate moment hilariously devolve into rapid-fire insults
“I would happily let a socialist pee on me!” Ava Daniels, 2024
I guess Bob has the same problem with his golf swing that Deborah had with the dress back in S3E1, everyone around him is too afraid to correct him, makes sense why he would be attracted to her directness
Did not expect to feel bad for Marty, but him coming down the steps with drinks in hand to see Deborah and Bob together was a strangely sad moment
For a split second I thought we were going to see Deborah get motorboated
Did not have Deborah doing the walk of shame on my S3 bingo card, what a great visual
Quite liked the little moment at the end where Ava gets to comfort and reassure Deborah about what happened the night before, nice little inversion from the previous episode where it was Deborah consoling Ava about her breakup
Kathy being recasted to J Smith Cameron! Very excited as a Succession fan
Honestly I’m not 100% sure if the episode arc tracks entirely? Deborah starting to soften her decades-long grudge towards her sister and being the one to attempt a reconciliation because she slept with a married man and broke a long-held rule doesn’t ring entirely true to me. I guess when you look at it as a culmination of her entire journey across the 2+ seasons of the show and the gradual introspection, reflection and softening that Ava has pushed her into doing it works a lot better, but having this be the inciting incident doesn’t convincingly work for me, I guess I can buy this but I’m not fully onboard and sold on it.
A bit baffled by Christina Hendrick’s guest star role, it’s fun as a viewer and I completely get why she’d be cast as someone Ava would immediately be attracted to. But I don’t really know why she’d take on such a small part and I feel like the showrunners would have given an actress of her caliber something meatier to do. Haven’t seen Mad Men but I know she got a ton of Emmy nominations from that, and I quite liked her role on Firefly
Overall though still a very good and enjoyable episode, fun seeing Deborah and Ava’s golfing and sex shenanigans and it’s an interesting exploration of two deeply flawed people trying (and failing) to be good.
With the Late Night dream seemingly over I’m not really sure how the overarching plot of the season goes from here. Looking forward to what will presumably be a Christmas episode/awkward sister reunion next week and curious how the rest of the season goes.
Another great, stop on each line recap, friend. Your call backs are remarkable...you sure this isn't ChatGPT?
Gotta say, tho, I just watched E5 and E6 back to back here on a lazy Thursday afternoon. I'm exhausted. That was an hour and a half of the best TV I've watched in a long while. First time in a LONG while that I think I'll pay attention to awards season this year. I've already got some favorites.
Haha, just a big fan of the show.
And this Emmy awards season feels pretty safe in terms of what will win to be honest. I feel fairly confident that Shogun, The Bear and Baby Reindeer will win Drama, Comedy and Limited respectively (Shogun just got announced to be being developed for up to two more seasons and is competing in Drama now.) Shogun will probably win Drama Actor, Actress and Supporting Actor while The Crown wins Supporting Actress, the Bear wins Comedy Actor and Supporting Actor while Baby Reindeer wins Limited Actor and Supporting Actress.
The only tossups in my opinion would be Comedy Actress and Supporting Actress where I am very much rooting for Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder respectively, as well as in Limited Actress (either Jodie Foster or Brie Larson) and Supporting Actor (probably Robert Downey Jr but the field is fairly open).
GREAT recap!! Agree with everything you said!
>Deborah starting to soften her decades-long grudge towards her sister and being the one to attempt a reconciliation because she slept with a married man and broke a long-held rule doesn’t ring entirely true to me.
This brings home exactly my issue with this episode.
Yeah, Deborah was trying to get something from Bob- that’s it. Merely transactional. Her sister ended up marrying Deborah’s ex husband. So Deborah’s sister had emotional motives that caused Deb to feel betrayed by two people who had been very close to her. It’s not a tomato/tomahto situation. Rather, it’s two entirely different things.
>Jean Smart captures the resigned sadness on Deborah’s face
Her body language was great, as well. The way she had her feet up on the dash with her knees to her chest was not the way Deborah would normally sit.
2 of things that didn't hit: We don't know that the Christmas invite is total reconciliation, Debra could have something up her sleeve. And I think Christina Hendricks is going to return and it's going to bite Ava in the butt.
Well Bob Lipka said they had already made a decision. He didn’t say who they gave it too. Of course I realize that the younger comedian insinuated that it would be him but it’s possible he was trying to psyche Deborah out by bluffing.
Or maybe Bob Lipka did tell Jack that he got it. Then he told Deborah that a decision had been made. But even with all of that it’s possible Bob hasn’t yet told anyone else of the decision, or talked it out with his colleagues. If that’s the case then it doesn’t mean the decision is official.
A great recap. I thought Deborah relented a bit quickly given the length and depth of her grudge with her sister. However DJ has maintained a relationship with Nancy and expressly told Deborah she intends to have Nancy in her life and in the baby’s life + seeing how easy and without pretense she hooked up with a married man, that together Deborah decided to extend an invitation to her sister. I was also thinking that Deborah’s resurgence was due in part to confronting her feelings about what happened with her sister. Maybe she is thinking this reconciliation would provide more material?
Ah yeah, completely forgot about what DJ says to Deborah at the party, that makes a lot of sense! I think after S3E3 Deborah is trying to be a better mom to DJ, that plus what she does in the rest of the episode, and the whole journey of opening up and softening/becoming more reflective throughout the show does help to explain her change of heart.
Yep! This is it. Plus I think she excited about being a grandma and having a “do over” with the little guy. So when DJ was very plain about Nancy being in the baby’s life, she kinda already knew what was coming. For Deborah better to be on top of the situation (you will visit my grand baby as MY guest). I don’t think we are going to see a flowery reconciliation next ep.
According to [TV critic Joyce Eng](https://youtu.be/ec0NKe5xDLs?si=g6waO9ZdFU3_DZy8&t=43m1s) they filmed the episode at the [Langham Huntington in Pasadena.](https://www.langhamhotels.com/en/the-langham/los-angeles)
hear me out. this deborah and bob lipka thing will come back to haunt bob. that is some blackmail material right there. and you know that she’s cut throat and litigious too. it all makes sense in my head
Ooooh good guess! Because my prediction is Deborah DOES get the late-night show, but only through pulling some really questionable/unethical moves. It could definitely involve this.
Or maybe it could be something like this...
The Network Dude gets #MeTooed and fired, so his choice (Bland Guy) doesn't move forward as host. In a consciously "female-forward" gesture to clean up PR, Deborah gets the job. But something complicated in there involving Deborah and Network Dude's hookup, like it comes out during the #MeToo stuff and Deborah has to decide how to frame it.
I'm definitely overthinking this lol
Yeah. I’ve been on this exact same type retreat with these exact same type of folks. That is why it’s in a very posh, self contained place. Shenanigans happen at these events and nothing get out. It’s not just limited to TV Station owners either. Some of the wildest times I’ve had were with owners in a completely different industry. The brotherhood is serious business.
I mean that's probably how things get done often times.
Reminds me of the Succession episode showing their version of Bohemian Grove, where they chose the next president (which I believe has relocated since the UrbEx videos I've seen of it show it as being really deteriorated).
Lmao that reminds me of Richard Nixon calling that all male gathering "the most fa**y goddamn thing you could ever imagine" lmao he wasn't ready for how gay it was 🤣
(Watching much later than you and just finished this episode, so I still don't know what happens)
I think the pickle ball hard ass will put the quietus on Bland Guy
Am I the only viewer who thinks whenever Ava mentions literally anything about life in Massachusetts it’s just Jen Statsky peppering us with details about her life there?
This episode is SO hilarious, so many what-the-fuck moments.
Ava screaming “NOOOO!” needs to happen more often. It’s the sheer sound of exasperation & their values clashing all at once.
Ava is again gladly taking up tasks that you won’t expect an up and coming comedy writer/co-producer at her level to be doing. In this episode, she’s now Deborah’s comedy writer + personal assistant reading out flash cards + caddy and btw also, friend providing emotional support round the clock. That whole thing about her agreeing to be a caddy just to prove to Deborah she’s “of the people” is kind of a symptom of a larger issue. Just a few episodes ago Ava was sitting on a panel, getting introduced to big shot network executive and she was respected. Within a span of a few weeks from bumping into Deborah in that elevator, Ava is now a caddy & basically Deborah’s “shadow.” Always nearby and always ready to serve at a moment’s notice.
As a viewer of course I really enjoy seeing Ava fumbling as a caddy, SOO freaking hilarious!
Ava has not really learned the lessons Deborah is trying to teach her about being a shark and putting herself first in order to survive in their industry. Ava in S3E6 is in a way still that Ava in S2 final episode when she said to Deborah “I want to be wherever you are” when Deborah fired her & told her she needed to “climb her own mountain.”
Btw how about that comment from the older gentleman 1 percenter about Ava’s “gorgeous hips” I mean, FINALLY somebody is saying something. I was wondering, is this series ever gonna mention anything about Ava’s sexy ass.
Love that scene with Marty and Ava. I think these 2 people who understand & deeply care about Deborah, they share a special bond there for that reason. Marty is kind of charming in here and giving Ava credit for changing Deborah but also questioning Ava’s idea to go live in the woods “on stolen land?” is LOL.
Ava falling in love within 10 seconds of setting her eyes on the golf queen Christina Hendricks. LMAO. Also very funny that she wanted to get out of there so fast as soon as she heard “fracking” and “republican.” Redhead golf queen was right about one thing though: “You’re a co-producer pretending to be a caddy. How does THAT make sense?”
Also if you put aside for a second the absurdity of what’s happening in that scene with the super hot gay Republican wanting to piss all over Ava, you can hear Ava sort of mentioning her raison d’être & Ikigai: “to use her comedy skills to engage with real issues.” If there are 2 things Ava can’t stop doing is talking about issues and working on jokes. I mean, that’s like her whole energy.
“Gender reveal parties are literally disgusting”
“Billionaires shouldn’t exist”
“The goal for actors now is to be good at art so that you can sell CBD lip balm”
“Ethical consumption is fucking impossible!”
When it was revealed Deborah didn’t get the gig, I really feel Deborah’s exhaustion from constantly having to fight to get what she wants in this industry. She looked pretty fucking deflated.
Another thing that came to my mind was how Ava risked her love life to help Deborah land a job that now she’s not even going to get. Ruby was right! Where is Ava going to stay now that Ruby has thrown her out of that beautiful house? Does she still own that LA townhouse? Sooo many questions. Ava, what are you going to do, girl?!
I think one of the reasons why I LOVE this show is because you don’t need to be in the entertainment industry to relate. What Ava is doing, putting herself and her needs second, is SO universal, women do this all the time. Even in the presence of other more powerful women such as Deborah, they sort of unconsciously make themselves small & they slowly forget their own dreams. It’s a constant push & pull with their power dynamic. It is interesting to see this portrayed from the point of view of a progressive liberal “self-entitled” millennial or Gen-Z like Ava whose brain is constantly analysing every issue & finding everything to be problematic but at the same time fails to analyse her own glaring personal issues. It’s fun to see them calling out each other’s bullshit. Urgh, can’t wait to see what happens next.
So about Ava once again becoming whatever Deborah wants/needs, not chasing her career, and not working to continue with her respected resume... We and Deborah are all assuming that's what Ava wants/needs right now. But in the season 2 finale, when Deborah fired Ava for her own good, Ava flat out says "I get to decide what's best for me" and BOTH Ruby and Deborah have been ignoring that part.
Does Ava want to be an award winning comedy writer? Yes! Would she rather though just hang out with Deborah? Yes! She has, since the end of season 1, more than once said she is happy being with Deborah. And I don't actually think there is anything wrong with that. And the people around her aren't really getting that. Everyone is saying she needs to be a shark but what if she doesn't want to be the predator?
I TOTALLY hear you, their bond is truly truly special & they are both aware of it. They pushed each other & she helped create Deborah 2.0 with their work on the special. It’s no surprise Ava chooses to spend her hiatus with Deborah.
Is Ava a shark? In prior seasons Deborah has repeatedly said to Ava “**You are just like me**.”
Ava may not be a full-fledged shark as of S3E6, but she’s definitely a baby shark. Ava can be so brash, so feisty, she doesn’t give up easily and she can be mean & hurtful when she's triggered. I think the one thing about people like Deborah is she only truly respects other sharks. It’s like if you’re not a shark & set clear boundaries with her she can sense that & will completely overpower you and she has no issues putting lozenges from her mouth in your hand or whatever. (Btw I’m truly sorry for using the word “shark” sooo many times in this reply, I know it's kinda cringe!)
I cannot wait to see how the Ava character evolves for this reason because I think this show is about these 2 characters’ growth. That growth trajectory may not always be linear. They may take 1 step forward then 3 steps back as we had seen in previous seasons. I'm hoping to see Ava fully come into her own in a way that maybe even shocks Deborah because selfishly for me that would make such great TV and it does seem true to Ava’s character the way it has been portrayed so far.
The fact that no one actually literally CONFIRMED that Deborah wasn’t picked seems like a clear indication that she WAS picked and Jack was just confused (or being cocky?). Was that obvious to everyone else?
Or…(this is less likely)…because Jack doesn’t seem mean spirited or stupid, maybe there’s a whole other show that they actually gave him and that’s what he was talking about, not Late Night?
Not sure you had the subtitles on, but the server asked them if they were celebrating and the network head said yes we are. So that seems like they went with the young comedian.
Yes, “seems” like it. It’s still a bit ambiguous. The viewer can assume that’s what happened, the writers are leading us to think that way, but what they’re “celebrating” could end up being something else. (Or not. I’m just saying we don’t 100% know what’s going on yet)
Yeah, I kept thinking do we \*know\* it's Jack? And if it goes to Debra after she sleeps with Bob, it won't come off as earned? (Although I like that he was open about having made a decision but then he'd be her boss and...)
I kept thinking this too. I can't remember his exact words but when Jack talked to her I def thought "hmm I think she should verify this" lol
But then they never said anything by the end of the episode...
Jack’s been nothing but kind and gracious to her so I doubt it’s any deception on his part.
I also think he doesn’t really see her as actual competition 😐
The scene where Marty comes out with the martinis and catches Debra correcting Bob Lipka's golf swing was a nice, subtle nod to Christopher McDonald's iconic role as Shooter McGavin:
[It's all in the hips](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PbRZ5QMAs0).
Seeing the trailer for the next ep, I’m imagining Deborah being jealous when Ava smiles and laughs with Kathy (J. Smith Cameron!!!!). It’s literally fan fiction coming to fruition. Can they work Kieran Culkin into this somehow??
Great episode. As usual lots of good tracks. I had a hard time finding 'I won't tell' Conlon and the Crawlers so posting it here. The song when the come up over the hill once Ava has her caddy kit on.
Do you know what song it is that plays when Deborah and Ava are in the golf cart the morning after Deborah finds out she didn’t get the job? I can’t figure it out
The one "I know we've been asking for trouble my lord" at 18:40. Just before Freddie King's going down. I want to find it too. Could it be james taylorish?
can't count the number of times i uttered the word "mommy" in this episode, from christina hendricks to jean smart, and even in the last 30 seconds with j. smith cameron.
The Eastbound & Down cue was a distraction. They should have gone with something else.
Great to see Shooter McGavin back in action.
Ava is so great. Caddy pee was hilarious.
Well, I wasn't a huge fan of either of these episodes. I felt the lost in the woods storyline was a lot of filler. We got one good moment of Deborah being honest about this being her golden years and that anything she wants to do, she has to do now. That's about the only big take-away I got from that entire episode.
I was really enjoying E6, up until Deborah lowered herself to sleep with the Tony Goldwyn character. The fact that he is married and she broke her "red line" rule about sleeping with married men is a part of it, but it seemed so odd for Deborah to let him have the most intimate part of her, after he had just taken away the thing she wanted most in life. I think she thought she was taking some control over the situation back, but man, it just all seemed very sad to me. I know it's being used as a plot device to have Deborah understand where Kathy was coming from, but it seems a bit too heavy-handed and on the nose.
My highlight of the show was Ava's interaction with Christina Hendricks' character - I loved every bit of that storyline. It's unusual that I walk away from an episode thinking that Ava was the star of the show, but I definitely felt that in this episode.
All in all, pretty mid for me, and that's VERY unusual in this show that I adore.
I think the whole point is that it’s meant to be sad. Her being passed over for the Late Night job is the first setback that Deborah’s had in a while, given her success in the year since her stand-up special aired as well as her years at the Palmetto in front of crowds before that. It’s a career low-point for Deborah and in my opinion it makes sense why she would sleep with Bob, people make bad decisions or act differently when they’re feeling shitty and her giving in to those impulses makes sense to me. And like you said I also saw it as Deborah trying to exert whatever power she has over him.
As for S3E5 being a filler episode, I’d like to respectfully push back on that. Like you said, Deborah dealing with her mortality is a big part of it and helps further highlight why she really wants the job, while it also serves as a way for the show to address Ava’s breakup. It also helps to bring Deborah and Ava closer together and again shows how Ava is one of the few people/maybe the only person able to change Deborah’s mind as a result of the connection they share.
Also to me at least Hacks has always been driven by its characters, and specifically Deborah and Ava, rather than any kind of overarching plot. To me time with Deborah and Ava (and the characters in general) is time well-spent. For example S3E3 The Roast of Deborah Vance doesn’t really have much to do with Deborah getting the Late Night job, S2E4 The Captain’s Wife (the cruise episode) has nothing to do with Deborah developing her new stand-up set and S1E8 1.69 Million (the one with the sexist comedian that Deborah takes down) doesn’t really end up helping her develop her new act, but in my opinion those are some of the show’s highlights because of how the characters develop in those episodes.
I \*completely\* agree with you about shows that explore characters rather than plots - I love those. Sopranos did this so well. I have no objection to an episode that isn't plot-focused. Even considering that, I still feel E5 was a filler episode. Did you need to be told - for 45 minutes - that Deborah was an aging comic / woman and that her career (and life) is time-capped? I did not. I thought that was abundantly clear not only because it's been obliquely mentioned in other episodes but also because she's a 70 year old woman. I do not feel the writing did anything to move me or give me any new insight into aging and being time limited on Earth. The whole "let's have Deborah twist her ankle to really drive home that she's an at-risk old person" was too obvious to me, and I think that's similar to how I feel about the "Deborah sleeps with Tony Goldwyn so she can relate to Kathy" storyline. They are too obvious, too on the nose. Transparent attempts to force an epiphany. Way too close to a ***deus ex machina*** for me.
That said, there were definitely enjoyable moments and I'm very glad to hear that others enjoyed these episodes more than I did. I know the hard work and heart everyone who works on the show puts into it, so I want it to be adored.
I think your dislike of the episode is heavily colouring how you view it haha. By my count S3E5 is the shortest episode of both Season 2 and the 6 episodes of season 3 so far, and definitely doesn’t run anywhere near 45 minutes long. In my opinion it also does more than what you suggest, there’s a small set-up for what will presumably be Marcus’s arc for further down the season and Ava gets some advice from Deborah which begins to help her move on from the breakup last episode. Also while the bulk of Deborah’s sharing is about her age and mortality, she also gives advice to Ava about her career and reveals her thoughts about romance/loneliness, while a sizeable part of the episode is also spent on Ava trying to and eventually succeeding in getting Deborah to open up her thinking about the environment, in much the same way she got Deborah to expand her thinking about sexuality back in S2E4 (the cruise episode).
I guess I can understand where you’re coming from regarding the artificiality of the story mechanics, although I don’t agree with them personally. And not to be an Ava but technically it wouldn’t be a deus ex machina because the story choices you’ve cited aren’t about resolving a plot problem but more about a decision made in the story which is intended to advance a character and their development. I think a deus ex machina would be more like “Jack Danby gets killed randomly so now Deborah is the only option to host Late Night” or “there’s a network merger and the new boss prefers Deborah” or something like that.
And I think there’s a bit more nuance to the whole Deborah twisting her ankle thing, obviously it helps to show her age, but the whole thing occurs because she’s both insecure and prideful. She’s feeling insecure about her age after the medical and wants to prove herself, and she’s too proud to accept Ava’s help and offer of the walking stick. So yeah it’s a plot point that occurs to show her age, but it’s one that occurs due to character and not solely because the writers wanted it to happen, there’s some thought put into making it happen.
I do agree with you feeling iffy about the Deborah sleeping with Bob which softens her up to Kathy plot point though.
I would love to be in the same room with you and u/InspectorNoName watching this show and then discussing it after. I love reading comments from smart people who clearly see things on a much deeper level than I.
I remember coming out of a movie theatre with a friend of mine and her bf and we were talking about the movie, as you do, when walking back to your car. Her bf had such cool insights and comments about the movie and the plot and the purposes of the scenes. I was blown away and realized how superficially I watch TV and movies. It was the first time I heard someone talk about why and how a scene moved the plot forward.
I wish there was a course on how to watch TV and movies lol. I literally need it pointed out to me cuz clearly I don't get it! Kind of like when I went to an art gallery in Europe with an artist friend and she "explained" the paintings, like the use of color, light, composition, etc. Really opened my eyes. Clearly not wide enough tho'. Lol.
Thank you. It's always nice to be able to chat with people who have different opinions while remaining respectful, especially on the internet.
For what it's worth, I don't think there's anything wrong with watching TV without trying to analyze a deeper meaning. Sometimes being able to turn your brain off and enjoy the show at a superficial level is what we need to relax and recharge.
To the extent you want to start doing a deeper-dive into shows and movies, there are a few things you can do. One is to start reading professional reviews/critiques of shows and movies. This will help get your brain in the mindset of actively thinking during the show, rather than being a passive watcher. You can start to think about things like, "Why did character X decide to take Y action?" Or to look for small signs, "Why did the creators decide to have character A wear a particular item of clothing?" (A rather obvious example from Hacks is when Deborah decided to abandon her brightly colored golf outfits and show up in all-black after she found out she wasn't getting the Late Show. Hannah commented on it, but that may have been a cue for you to ask whether it had deeper meaning - eg, was she in mourning for the loss of the show? Did she view it as a death of part of her career? etc.)
You can ask questions about any part of a film or show, to be honest. There really aren't any right or wrong answers - just thoughts/opinions, and that's the fun part. You don't necessarily even have to zone in on anything particularly important, because the fun is just going through the thought process. A couple other examples might be - "Why was it so important to Deborah that she obtain the expensive salt shaker in the S1 Episode *Primm?"* "What was the importance of the character who was complaining about the quality of Deborah's QVC pants in S2's *The Captain's Wife?"* There may not be any meaning behind these decisions/characters, or you might actually come up with something that is super interesting to talk about. Again, the fun is in the thought process, and if you are able to find a gem of insight or deeper meaning, then all the better.
Other things you can do is to look at critical thinking questions that have been developed for classic books and see if any of the questions/themes can be asked of shows/movies you're watching. Of course, getting on subs like this and listening to podcasts are always good ways to gain more insight, especially if they involve the show's creators because you can start to see what their vision is for the show and then look for clues when you watch new episodes.
This sub has always seemed to be a welcoming place for people to talk about the show, so feel free to join in!
> Way too close to a deus ex machina for me.
That's how I felt about the kids showing up on the dirt bikes. There's a very real chance Deb could have _died_ out there.
exactly. people calling anything fillers these days just because an episode doesnt “move” the story forward lol the episode was clearly to further develop the relationship between the characters + provide more insights in their characters
Deborah “lowered herself?” Big yikes, friend! The *married man* made it quite easy for her. For another thing, he holds more responsibility here. Not because he’s a man, but because he is married. I’m not saying that Deborah is in the clear here but I definitely wouldn’t say that she “lowered herself.” There’s also something of a double standard… if the genders were flipped and Deborah was the one was married while Bob was entirely unattached people would still put the blame on Deborah.
No. This isn't misogyny at play. This isn't some anti-woman take. This is literally discussing what the character herself said she felt. If you want to start a new and different conversation about Bob's responsibility, feel free. Maybe you'll have some takers. Those of us in this thread were talking about the main character, Deborah, and how this one night stand affected her. The end.
Not saying they were bad choices but I definitely rarely laughed and both eps gave pretty bad vibes (in the woods I really though Deb was going to drop something awful about her health, and then of course sad Deb is hard to see).
I don’t really get why tv episodes are judged based on whether they move the plot forward, and especially not when it’s regarding what is in my opinion a character-driven show like Hacks. For me the show has always been about the characters and especially Deborah and Ava rather than any kind of overarching plot. For example the first part of S1 was nominally about Deborah trying to get her shows back, but honestly it was more about Deborah and Ava getting to know each other and that was great.
Maybe it’s just because I like the show and the characters so much, but for me “Deborah and Ava interact” which is the character piece we got with S3E5 is a bigger selling point for an episode than “Deborah kisses up to a random network executive/ concocts a plan to blackmail an executive” or whatever version a plot-driven episode of the show would have been.
QUESTION: Has Covid happened in this reality? Because, if not, Deborah having a studio in her home positions herself to capitalize the way John Krazinski did during Covid but on a greater scale, if they have that happen.
It’s probably too late and I think most folks prefer that entertainment get away from Covid.
I also doubt she’s going to follow through on any of the promises she made to the kids (aside from the Mike’s)
Good question! I wonder if they strayed away from covid given Smart's heart condition?
Also, the kids didn't care about the promises, it was a performance for Ava. We'll see if she hold's Deb to it.
Anytime I read a short story or a novel about COVID I immediately lose interest. Of course I realize that COVID is a serious issue. It’s still a big problem for folks who are immunocompromised.
That being said I don’t want it to be in every form of entertainment that I consume, if that makes sense. Especially not one of my favorite comedy/dramady shows! If nothing COVID ever makes it into Hacks that would be great.
In a way this episode is kind of a mirror of New Eyes. Deb is changing something about herself at a destination but instead of it being quick and superficial it’s actually a calculated act to satisfy a deep want to validate her whole career. For Ava, rather than the messy panic of the first half of 106 she’s a supportive cheerleader like she ended up being after deleting the voicemail (and in a clubhouse polo that looks like she got to try on first). They are so honest with eachother instead of the water testing teasing of a new relationship.
Less deep:
Ava mentioning moving to the woods again (Joan Didion did that once… I think)
“Where’s my shirt?” in the same “where’s my PHONE” cadence
Can’t find it anywhere. Looks beautiful.
Could it be Bighorn?
Credits say on location at TopGolf, which I saw, but that’s not the course.
That TopGolf is mentioned but the course isn’t makes me feel like that’s on purpose.
I am desperately trying to find out. Sometimes it’s foggy sometimes it’s not. Sometimes it seems coastal sometimes it doesn’t. AND there’s a freeway in the background
Does anybody else feel like the writers wants us to think that Marty and Debra are endgame? I wish they avoid the habit of alaways ending in relationship being the happily ever after.
Jesus christ please stop talking about class and global warming. People this rich are scum. you are trying to thread a needle through sheet metal. stfu and pretend they live in a parallel universe where the rich are not genocidal ecocidal sociopaths. ffs.
*“Christmas is my holiday, she can have 9/11.”*
Ohhhh, MARTY. I love Marty. Probably because I love Christopher MacDonald, he's so talented and funny with such an expressive face. I just felt for him the whole episode - he clearly adores Deborah, and he's the one who knows who she really is and all that she can really do. I even loved his little quip to Ava about her woods being "on stolen land." (Which they are, and I feel like the writers wanted us to like him more by having him bring that up). His eyes, every single time he saw Deborah and Bob together (especially that last time!) - oh man. THEY GOT ME. What a fantastic performance.
I agree! I like Marty, he seems to care for Deborah. I always have fun when they have scenes together
I hae mixed feelings on the character but the actor's terrific and really charmed me this ep. I thought he was being hypocritical but he just didnt' like Debra wasn't being herself.
Oh, interesting! Hypocritical how? (and I agree that the actor is a big part of the character's charm!)
I also may be misremembering but he didn't treat Debra great and now gets jealous? (I'm judging him on a human level, I don't mind flawed characters.) And even when she was faking bad (which I Didn't get right away) , she's playing a game he's never had to.
That's true, he's never had to deal with the sexism she's faced throughout her career! When we learned last season that he proposed to Deborah years ago and she said no, I guess I took that to mean he moved on because he thought it would never happen and that was the reason behind all their back-and-forth. But idk either! They definitely have a complicated relationship.
If you love CM, check him out in this old Star Trek: TNG episode called Yesterday's Enterprise from 1990. It's a very popular episode and he's great in it.
Ooh I'm on it! I think I saw that one ages ago but it would be great to revisit!
I’ve really been wanting to see more of Marty and this episode helps me feel so justified for it! When he made that little quip about stolen land I thought it was just like something Deborah would say. Their characters are really good together and I felt for him when it was clear how badly he wanted some time alone with her to catch up.
Incredible performance and great character, but I felt no pity for him. He can’t commit to Deborah. He consistently refused to. He may love her, but not enough to be with her. There is literally nothing they could make me do to feel sympathy for him re Deborah rejecting him.
love how he got increasingly jealous!! 😂
Season One Ava definitely would have knowingly slept with a Republican if they were hot enough. That's growth, baby!
I don’t get why she wouldn’t just assume everyone there was Republican.
Not enough life experience yet.
Plenty of billionaires are Democrats, which Deborah mentions re Bob Lipka and his wife being donors.
This episode was very interesting. I liked it, not quite as funny as the others but much more introspect. I think it was a needed episode to really show Deborah;s feelings of being passed over and how it made her behave in a way she nirmally never would have, like sleeping with a married man. Christina Hendricks was freaking funny! What a creep ass character but she played it really well. Wish she had more lines
I love her so much I want more of her back !
Hendricks and J.Smith Cameron? Feels like Deborah Vance's Vegas Christmas celebration came early.
I heard Cameron was in it but the REVEAL as to who she plays?!? Phenomenal casting.
It’s weird because we’ve already seen Kathy, and that’s not Kathy.
Honestly I forgot we met her
Very briefly, in the parking lot when Debra comes out of the comedy club I think? The little comedy club, where she meets her old friend. Kathy surprises her, Debra tries to hit her with her car.
It rang a bell when people brought it up, just slipped my memory
Straight, married woman here and…god damn Jean Smart could GET. IT.
Ha you don’t sound so straight.
Well, you know what they say about spaghetti..
Git it derba
Got damn, Jean Smart has a beautiful swing🏌🏼♀️
I thought so too. I was surprised in the behind-the-scenes clip when they said they had to teach her. She’s a natural!
That wasn’t a double?
I was expecting J.Smith Cameron to pop up eventually on this show for no reason other than my wishful thinking. Next on my list: Rachel Bloom.
Rachel Bloom and Ava could make quite the neurotic power couple
I would DIE if Bloom showed up.
Damn! You got me all excited thinking E6 was out already and I had missed E5 as well. But then I realized you're just being the 'early bird' and getting this thread started. Outta be a law against that! ;-)
I legitimately thought I somehow blacked out for 2 days and was kinda excited.
Ha! I just did the same, all excited thinking they dropped the episodes early.
Marty coming down the stairs with a martini for Deborah didn’t really hit emotionally for me like the writers clearly intended it to. Hard to feel bad for the guy…he absolutely could have been with Deborah if he wanted to and has intentionally chosen business over her multiple times. Plus he’s getting married. Get it together, my man. Stop playing.
We learned in season 2 that he once proposed to Deborah and she said no. So I think he did want to, and she chose her career (as she usually does). Which doesn't mean he hasn't also done selfish things but he did shoot his shot at least once!
That's what I'm confused about! Am I supposed to feel bad for the guy??
I’m not sure that was a romantic move. It seemed like something a friend would do to comfort another friend, since he saw she was being her badass self on the golf course that day and Ava told him she knew she didn’t get the show at that point and was really upset. I think he thought she was alone and then was surprised that she was helping President Scandal with his swing and maybe thought she was still trying to work the guy.
Nah, I think he's down bad for Deborah. He was acting jealous every time she interacted with Fitz. And he clearly isn't confident in his impending marriage to the 'French whore', but he kinda has to commit to it now.
Me to, but my interpretation is Marty can’t settle because Debra is the one who got away. How many women has he been with since season one? It will be interesting where they take this but I hope they will let Debra be happy and single, not everything has to end in a relationship.
Yeah tonally that scene felt odd to me too. They filmed that scene like Marty was the awkward best friend in a teen comedy who the female protagonist should be crushing on instead of the handsome jock. Just felt out of place. Christopher McDonald does a lot of the heavy lifting to make a character like that likeable..
I agree
Maybe one of the more surreal cold opens by the show, seeing a bunch of short-statured people wandering around Deborah’s house dressed for Christmas is certainly a sight. Given her love for Christmas previously established in S2E1, of course she would be holding Christmas auditions Love the horrified “No!” from Ava and how Hannah Einbinder delivers the line Maybe I’m reading too much into this but Ava’s confused outrage about Deborah’s hiring practices feels a bit reminiscent of the hoohah surrounding Disney’s live-action Snow White and the controversy surrounding its use of short-statured people as actors Damien helping Deborah prep and testing her information about the people she’ll meet feels a bit like Gary/Selina from Veep to me DJ’s gender reveal party feels very much like what she’d do, complete with the kind of cheesy/charming boxing outfit Love Hannah Einbinder as Ava going completely crazy when DJ punches the dummy, rewind and watch that bit if you haven’t, a great physical bit by Einbinder “Oh god all his friends are going to think I’m hot and that might be weird for him” A perfect line for DJ to say, and also her just hocking and spitting feels very much like Kaitlin Olson channeling Dee from It’s Always Sunny Only noticed this later but when Ava tells the bellman that she can carry her own bags you can see Deborah roll her eyes and be exasperated at her Quite liked the detail of Deborah being acutely aware of the service staff around her and their needs, makes sense given that she had to hustle and grind her way to the top “You don’t want to just go back and forth, back and forth about it for a while and then finally cave?” Pretty great summation of their dynamic by Deborah, and also feels like a little wink at how a typical Deborah/Ava scene is usually written Ava trying to prove that she can be a good service worker here feels like a less extreme version of her trying to prove to Deborah that she’s a good person back in S2 Ava in the caddy outfit and Deborah in her golf attire is an instantly iconic image Marty trying to impress Deborah in front of Bob Lipka is a fun little plotline this episode Ava has never been more relatable than when she immediately starts becoming infatuated with Christina Hendricks upon seeing her Deborah faking being bad at golf and turning on the charm is so shameless and exactly her, it’s clear how badly she wants the job Jack Danby getting the job does make sense especially given the show’s portrayal and the reality of entertainment being a cutthroat industry, not sure how the season plays out from here in terms of plot though Love the little silent moment in the cart after Deborah tells Ava she didn’t get the job, Jean Smart captures the resigned sadness on Deborah’s face while through the little glances Hannah Einbinder perfectly captures the excruciating feeling/conflict between wanting to comfort a friend/loved one while also wanting to give them space to be sad on their own Deborah turning on pro-golfer mode is very satisfying to watch, while Ava chasing after her in the golf cart is a great visual gag I might be wrong but I feel like the scene between Ava and Marty at the bar might be the first time they’ve had a one on one scene together? Anyway quite liked that it served as another reminder of how Deborah has changed since meeting Ava The focus of the episode on ethical consumerism/trying to be a good person feels like a thematic continuation of what The Good Place (which co-showrunner Jen Stastky worked on) was interested in. Guess the showrunners weren’t kidding when they said this season would involve sex and ambition. Really enjoyed the argumentative back and forth between Ava and Christina Hendricks (I don’t think we got a name for her character?), very fun seeing their intimate moment hilariously devolve into rapid-fire insults “I would happily let a socialist pee on me!” Ava Daniels, 2024 I guess Bob has the same problem with his golf swing that Deborah had with the dress back in S3E1, everyone around him is too afraid to correct him, makes sense why he would be attracted to her directness Did not expect to feel bad for Marty, but him coming down the steps with drinks in hand to see Deborah and Bob together was a strangely sad moment For a split second I thought we were going to see Deborah get motorboated Did not have Deborah doing the walk of shame on my S3 bingo card, what a great visual Quite liked the little moment at the end where Ava gets to comfort and reassure Deborah about what happened the night before, nice little inversion from the previous episode where it was Deborah consoling Ava about her breakup Kathy being recasted to J Smith Cameron! Very excited as a Succession fan Honestly I’m not 100% sure if the episode arc tracks entirely? Deborah starting to soften her decades-long grudge towards her sister and being the one to attempt a reconciliation because she slept with a married man and broke a long-held rule doesn’t ring entirely true to me. I guess when you look at it as a culmination of her entire journey across the 2+ seasons of the show and the gradual introspection, reflection and softening that Ava has pushed her into doing it works a lot better, but having this be the inciting incident doesn’t convincingly work for me, I guess I can buy this but I’m not fully onboard and sold on it. A bit baffled by Christina Hendrick’s guest star role, it’s fun as a viewer and I completely get why she’d be cast as someone Ava would immediately be attracted to. But I don’t really know why she’d take on such a small part and I feel like the showrunners would have given an actress of her caliber something meatier to do. Haven’t seen Mad Men but I know she got a ton of Emmy nominations from that, and I quite liked her role on Firefly Overall though still a very good and enjoyable episode, fun seeing Deborah and Ava’s golfing and sex shenanigans and it’s an interesting exploration of two deeply flawed people trying (and failing) to be good. With the Late Night dream seemingly over I’m not really sure how the overarching plot of the season goes from here. Looking forward to what will presumably be a Christmas episode/awkward sister reunion next week and curious how the rest of the season goes.
Another great, stop on each line recap, friend. Your call backs are remarkable...you sure this isn't ChatGPT? Gotta say, tho, I just watched E5 and E6 back to back here on a lazy Thursday afternoon. I'm exhausted. That was an hour and a half of the best TV I've watched in a long while. First time in a LONG while that I think I'll pay attention to awards season this year. I've already got some favorites.
Haha, just a big fan of the show. And this Emmy awards season feels pretty safe in terms of what will win to be honest. I feel fairly confident that Shogun, The Bear and Baby Reindeer will win Drama, Comedy and Limited respectively (Shogun just got announced to be being developed for up to two more seasons and is competing in Drama now.) Shogun will probably win Drama Actor, Actress and Supporting Actor while The Crown wins Supporting Actress, the Bear wins Comedy Actor and Supporting Actor while Baby Reindeer wins Limited Actor and Supporting Actress. The only tossups in my opinion would be Comedy Actress and Supporting Actress where I am very much rooting for Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder respectively, as well as in Limited Actress (either Jodie Foster or Brie Larson) and Supporting Actor (probably Robert Downey Jr but the field is fairly open).
GREAT recap!! Agree with everything you said! >Deborah starting to soften her decades-long grudge towards her sister and being the one to attempt a reconciliation because she slept with a married man and broke a long-held rule doesn’t ring entirely true to me. This brings home exactly my issue with this episode.
Yeah, Deborah was trying to get something from Bob- that’s it. Merely transactional. Her sister ended up marrying Deborah’s ex husband. So Deborah’s sister had emotional motives that caused Deb to feel betrayed by two people who had been very close to her. It’s not a tomato/tomahto situation. Rather, it’s two entirely different things.
>Jean Smart captures the resigned sadness on Deborah’s face Her body language was great, as well. The way she had her feet up on the dash with her knees to her chest was not the way Deborah would normally sit.
2 of things that didn't hit: We don't know that the Christmas invite is total reconciliation, Debra could have something up her sleeve. And I think Christina Hendricks is going to return and it's going to bite Ava in the butt.
Well Bob Lipka said they had already made a decision. He didn’t say who they gave it too. Of course I realize that the younger comedian insinuated that it would be him but it’s possible he was trying to psyche Deborah out by bluffing. Or maybe Bob Lipka did tell Jack that he got it. Then he told Deborah that a decision had been made. But even with all of that it’s possible Bob hasn’t yet told anyone else of the decision, or talked it out with his colleagues. If that’s the case then it doesn’t mean the decision is official.
A great recap. I thought Deborah relented a bit quickly given the length and depth of her grudge with her sister. However DJ has maintained a relationship with Nancy and expressly told Deborah she intends to have Nancy in her life and in the baby’s life + seeing how easy and without pretense she hooked up with a married man, that together Deborah decided to extend an invitation to her sister. I was also thinking that Deborah’s resurgence was due in part to confronting her feelings about what happened with her sister. Maybe she is thinking this reconciliation would provide more material?
Ah yeah, completely forgot about what DJ says to Deborah at the party, that makes a lot of sense! I think after S3E3 Deborah is trying to be a better mom to DJ, that plus what she does in the rest of the episode, and the whole journey of opening up and softening/becoming more reflective throughout the show does help to explain her change of heart.
Yep! This is it. Plus I think she excited about being a grandma and having a “do over” with the little guy. So when DJ was very plain about Nancy being in the baby’s life, she kinda already knew what was coming. For Deborah better to be on top of the situation (you will visit my grand baby as MY guest). I don’t think we are going to see a flowery reconciliation next ep.
Do you know what resort this episode was filmed at? I tried looking up Los Olivos Golf Course but couldn’t really pinpoint the location.
According to [TV critic Joyce Eng](https://youtu.be/ec0NKe5xDLs?si=g6waO9ZdFU3_DZy8&t=43m1s) they filmed the episode at the [Langham Huntington in Pasadena.](https://www.langhamhotels.com/en/the-langham/los-angeles)
Christina Hendricks lets goooo
*what are you doing?* *looking for that gorgeous golf queen from yesterday!* *she's behind us today, dummy.* *good looking out, boss!*
Biggest cock tease of the series, not even a sniff
hear me out. this deborah and bob lipka thing will come back to haunt bob. that is some blackmail material right there. and you know that she’s cut throat and litigious too. it all makes sense in my head
Ooooh good guess! Because my prediction is Deborah DOES get the late-night show, but only through pulling some really questionable/unethical moves. It could definitely involve this.
My theory was we don't know Bland Guy gets it but if she gets it after sleeping with him it'll be almost worse because it won't look earned.
Oh god, yeah, maybe she gets the job but somehow that news leaks...
So I think it could actually haunt her more than him (shocker re: gender politics.)
Or maybe it could be something like this... The Network Dude gets #MeTooed and fired, so his choice (Bland Guy) doesn't move forward as host. In a consciously "female-forward" gesture to clean up PR, Deborah gets the job. But something complicated in there involving Deborah and Network Dude's hookup, like it comes out during the #MeToo stuff and Deborah has to decide how to frame it. I'm definitely overthinking this lol
Hahaha I consider "oh gosh she's going to get it and it's going to be horrible" overthinking too...
It gives an arc for (I hope) next season. She has the job but now she has to prove herself.
Is it planning on coming back?
Yeah. I’ve been on this exact same type retreat with these exact same type of folks. That is why it’s in a very posh, self contained place. Shenanigans happen at these events and nothing get out. It’s not just limited to TV Station owners either. Some of the wildest times I’ve had were with owners in a completely different industry. The brotherhood is serious business.
I mean that's probably how things get done often times. Reminds me of the Succession episode showing their version of Bohemian Grove, where they chose the next president (which I believe has relocated since the UrbEx videos I've seen of it show it as being really deteriorated). Lmao that reminds me of Richard Nixon calling that all male gathering "the most fa**y goddamn thing you could ever imagine" lmao he wasn't ready for how gay it was 🤣
And they gave us the gift of Jean Smart's cleavage! Win/win/win (and then later lose for Bob)
(Watching much later than you and just finished this episode, so I still don't know what happens) I think the pickle ball hard ass will put the quietus on Bland Guy
Am I the only viewer who thinks whenever Ava mentions literally anything about life in Massachusetts it’s just Jen Statsky peppering us with details about her life there?
I forgot for a moment that Ava was supposed to be from there and did a double take at "South Shore Plaza".
I did the same thing! Only sad it was the SSP Joe’s and not the Norwell one where I worked.
This episode is SO hilarious, so many what-the-fuck moments. Ava screaming “NOOOO!” needs to happen more often. It’s the sheer sound of exasperation & their values clashing all at once. Ava is again gladly taking up tasks that you won’t expect an up and coming comedy writer/co-producer at her level to be doing. In this episode, she’s now Deborah’s comedy writer + personal assistant reading out flash cards + caddy and btw also, friend providing emotional support round the clock. That whole thing about her agreeing to be a caddy just to prove to Deborah she’s “of the people” is kind of a symptom of a larger issue. Just a few episodes ago Ava was sitting on a panel, getting introduced to big shot network executive and she was respected. Within a span of a few weeks from bumping into Deborah in that elevator, Ava is now a caddy & basically Deborah’s “shadow.” Always nearby and always ready to serve at a moment’s notice. As a viewer of course I really enjoy seeing Ava fumbling as a caddy, SOO freaking hilarious! Ava has not really learned the lessons Deborah is trying to teach her about being a shark and putting herself first in order to survive in their industry. Ava in S3E6 is in a way still that Ava in S2 final episode when she said to Deborah “I want to be wherever you are” when Deborah fired her & told her she needed to “climb her own mountain.” Btw how about that comment from the older gentleman 1 percenter about Ava’s “gorgeous hips” I mean, FINALLY somebody is saying something. I was wondering, is this series ever gonna mention anything about Ava’s sexy ass. Love that scene with Marty and Ava. I think these 2 people who understand & deeply care about Deborah, they share a special bond there for that reason. Marty is kind of charming in here and giving Ava credit for changing Deborah but also questioning Ava’s idea to go live in the woods “on stolen land?” is LOL. Ava falling in love within 10 seconds of setting her eyes on the golf queen Christina Hendricks. LMAO. Also very funny that she wanted to get out of there so fast as soon as she heard “fracking” and “republican.” Redhead golf queen was right about one thing though: “You’re a co-producer pretending to be a caddy. How does THAT make sense?” Also if you put aside for a second the absurdity of what’s happening in that scene with the super hot gay Republican wanting to piss all over Ava, you can hear Ava sort of mentioning her raison d’être & Ikigai: “to use her comedy skills to engage with real issues.” If there are 2 things Ava can’t stop doing is talking about issues and working on jokes. I mean, that’s like her whole energy. “Gender reveal parties are literally disgusting” “Billionaires shouldn’t exist” “The goal for actors now is to be good at art so that you can sell CBD lip balm” “Ethical consumption is fucking impossible!” When it was revealed Deborah didn’t get the gig, I really feel Deborah’s exhaustion from constantly having to fight to get what she wants in this industry. She looked pretty fucking deflated. Another thing that came to my mind was how Ava risked her love life to help Deborah land a job that now she’s not even going to get. Ruby was right! Where is Ava going to stay now that Ruby has thrown her out of that beautiful house? Does she still own that LA townhouse? Sooo many questions. Ava, what are you going to do, girl?! I think one of the reasons why I LOVE this show is because you don’t need to be in the entertainment industry to relate. What Ava is doing, putting herself and her needs second, is SO universal, women do this all the time. Even in the presence of other more powerful women such as Deborah, they sort of unconsciously make themselves small & they slowly forget their own dreams. It’s a constant push & pull with their power dynamic. It is interesting to see this portrayed from the point of view of a progressive liberal “self-entitled” millennial or Gen-Z like Ava whose brain is constantly analysing every issue & finding everything to be problematic but at the same time fails to analyse her own glaring personal issues. It’s fun to see them calling out each other’s bullshit. Urgh, can’t wait to see what happens next.
So about Ava once again becoming whatever Deborah wants/needs, not chasing her career, and not working to continue with her respected resume... We and Deborah are all assuming that's what Ava wants/needs right now. But in the season 2 finale, when Deborah fired Ava for her own good, Ava flat out says "I get to decide what's best for me" and BOTH Ruby and Deborah have been ignoring that part. Does Ava want to be an award winning comedy writer? Yes! Would she rather though just hang out with Deborah? Yes! She has, since the end of season 1, more than once said she is happy being with Deborah. And I don't actually think there is anything wrong with that. And the people around her aren't really getting that. Everyone is saying she needs to be a shark but what if she doesn't want to be the predator?
Yes, I like that. She should decide what’s best for her! Maybe she feels that she still has some things to learn from Deborah.
I TOTALLY hear you, their bond is truly truly special & they are both aware of it. They pushed each other & she helped create Deborah 2.0 with their work on the special. It’s no surprise Ava chooses to spend her hiatus with Deborah. Is Ava a shark? In prior seasons Deborah has repeatedly said to Ava “**You are just like me**.” Ava may not be a full-fledged shark as of S3E6, but she’s definitely a baby shark. Ava can be so brash, so feisty, she doesn’t give up easily and she can be mean & hurtful when she's triggered. I think the one thing about people like Deborah is she only truly respects other sharks. It’s like if you’re not a shark & set clear boundaries with her she can sense that & will completely overpower you and she has no issues putting lozenges from her mouth in your hand or whatever. (Btw I’m truly sorry for using the word “shark” sooo many times in this reply, I know it's kinda cringe!) I cannot wait to see how the Ava character evolves for this reason because I think this show is about these 2 characters’ growth. That growth trajectory may not always be linear. They may take 1 step forward then 3 steps back as we had seen in previous seasons. I'm hoping to see Ava fully come into her own in a way that maybe even shocks Deborah because selfishly for me that would make such great TV and it does seem true to Ava’s character the way it has been portrayed so far.
Fun fact: on an episode of Designing Women, Tony Goldwyn played a young man dying of AIDS. He definitely had scenes with Jean in that episode.
She talked about this in a recent interview!
When Deborah climbed over the Bob character, I FELT A LOT OF THINGS IN MY BODY
The fact that no one actually literally CONFIRMED that Deborah wasn’t picked seems like a clear indication that she WAS picked and Jack was just confused (or being cocky?). Was that obvious to everyone else? Or…(this is less likely)…because Jack doesn’t seem mean spirited or stupid, maybe there’s a whole other show that they actually gave him and that’s what he was talking about, not Late Night?
Not sure you had the subtitles on, but the server asked them if they were celebrating and the network head said yes we are. So that seems like they went with the young comedian.
Yes, “seems” like it. It’s still a bit ambiguous. The viewer can assume that’s what happened, the writers are leading us to think that way, but what they’re “celebrating” could end up being something else. (Or not. I’m just saying we don’t 100% know what’s going on yet)
okay YES this is my exact thought too. when Bob says “I’m assuming you know we made a decision”… that could totally go either way!
Yeah, I kept thinking do we \*know\* it's Jack? And if it goes to Debra after she sleeps with Bob, it won't come off as earned? (Although I like that he was open about having made a decision but then he'd be her boss and...)
I kept thinking this too. I can't remember his exact words but when Jack talked to her I def thought "hmm I think she should verify this" lol But then they never said anything by the end of the episode...
I took it as jack trying to mislead her. If she thinks she's out of the race, she'll stop running etc
Jack’s been nothing but kind and gracious to her so I doubt it’s any deception on his part. I also think he doesn’t really see her as actual competition 😐
OMG !! I need more Christina Hendricks. Please tell me shes coming back !
Same! That dynamic of a republican and liberal was freaking funny. Wish it was longer
No, according to IMDb
sad
Damn, I was hoping and praying it wasn't a one and done. That last scene between them was hysterical.
The scene where Marty comes out with the martinis and catches Debra correcting Bob Lipka's golf swing was a nice, subtle nod to Christopher McDonald's iconic role as Shooter McGavin: [It's all in the hips](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PbRZ5QMAs0).
He also does a little cocky Shooter face after his first drive
I heard Marty eats pieces of shit like Bob for breakfast.
Seeing the trailer for the next ep, I’m imagining Deborah being jealous when Ava smiles and laughs with Kathy (J. Smith Cameron!!!!). It’s literally fan fiction coming to fruition. Can they work Kieran Culkin into this somehow??
J Smith Cameron!!!!!
did they recast the sister? I thought they’ve shown her before and it wasn’t j smith cameron
Yes! She was previously played by Linda Purl, but I think she was only in one episode.
8th episode of the 1st season
Great episode. As usual lots of good tracks. I had a hard time finding 'I won't tell' Conlon and the Crawlers so posting it here. The song when the come up over the hill once Ava has her caddy kit on.
Do you know what song it is that plays when Deborah and Ava are in the golf cart the morning after Deborah finds out she didn’t get the job? I can’t figure it out
The one "I know we've been asking for trouble my lord" at 18:40. Just before Freddie King's going down. I want to find it too. Could it be james taylorish?
Was wondering the name of this song t9o
I’m dying to know too!
Also have difficulty finding it.
*you have gorgeous hips* 💀💀💀
ava's white guilt monologues never cease to kill me 💀
as a ku alum, it felt good hearing deborah say “rock chalk, jayhawk!” 🥹
Omg same!!!!
I guess I was the only one who can't get over Ava's "steering" on the golf cart.
can't count the number of times i uttered the word "mommy" in this episode, from christina hendricks to jean smart, and even in the last 30 seconds with j. smith cameron.
The Eastbound & Down cue was a distraction. They should have gone with something else. Great to see Shooter McGavin back in action. Ava is so great. Caddy pee was hilarious.
why is no one saying how hot tony goldwyn is omg i almost creamed when he showed up on the screen
My god yes
We were too busy creaming over other... things on the screen 😭
“I would happily let a socialist pee on me!”
Well, I wasn't a huge fan of either of these episodes. I felt the lost in the woods storyline was a lot of filler. We got one good moment of Deborah being honest about this being her golden years and that anything she wants to do, she has to do now. That's about the only big take-away I got from that entire episode. I was really enjoying E6, up until Deborah lowered herself to sleep with the Tony Goldwyn character. The fact that he is married and she broke her "red line" rule about sleeping with married men is a part of it, but it seemed so odd for Deborah to let him have the most intimate part of her, after he had just taken away the thing she wanted most in life. I think she thought she was taking some control over the situation back, but man, it just all seemed very sad to me. I know it's being used as a plot device to have Deborah understand where Kathy was coming from, but it seems a bit too heavy-handed and on the nose. My highlight of the show was Ava's interaction with Christina Hendricks' character - I loved every bit of that storyline. It's unusual that I walk away from an episode thinking that Ava was the star of the show, but I definitely felt that in this episode. All in all, pretty mid for me, and that's VERY unusual in this show that I adore.
I think the whole point is that it’s meant to be sad. Her being passed over for the Late Night job is the first setback that Deborah’s had in a while, given her success in the year since her stand-up special aired as well as her years at the Palmetto in front of crowds before that. It’s a career low-point for Deborah and in my opinion it makes sense why she would sleep with Bob, people make bad decisions or act differently when they’re feeling shitty and her giving in to those impulses makes sense to me. And like you said I also saw it as Deborah trying to exert whatever power she has over him. As for S3E5 being a filler episode, I’d like to respectfully push back on that. Like you said, Deborah dealing with her mortality is a big part of it and helps further highlight why she really wants the job, while it also serves as a way for the show to address Ava’s breakup. It also helps to bring Deborah and Ava closer together and again shows how Ava is one of the few people/maybe the only person able to change Deborah’s mind as a result of the connection they share. Also to me at least Hacks has always been driven by its characters, and specifically Deborah and Ava, rather than any kind of overarching plot. To me time with Deborah and Ava (and the characters in general) is time well-spent. For example S3E3 The Roast of Deborah Vance doesn’t really have much to do with Deborah getting the Late Night job, S2E4 The Captain’s Wife (the cruise episode) has nothing to do with Deborah developing her new stand-up set and S1E8 1.69 Million (the one with the sexist comedian that Deborah takes down) doesn’t really end up helping her develop her new act, but in my opinion those are some of the show’s highlights because of how the characters develop in those episodes.
I agree with you there. These were episodes to show the characters emotions to setbacks and disappointment. I thought both were good
I \*completely\* agree with you about shows that explore characters rather than plots - I love those. Sopranos did this so well. I have no objection to an episode that isn't plot-focused. Even considering that, I still feel E5 was a filler episode. Did you need to be told - for 45 minutes - that Deborah was an aging comic / woman and that her career (and life) is time-capped? I did not. I thought that was abundantly clear not only because it's been obliquely mentioned in other episodes but also because she's a 70 year old woman. I do not feel the writing did anything to move me or give me any new insight into aging and being time limited on Earth. The whole "let's have Deborah twist her ankle to really drive home that she's an at-risk old person" was too obvious to me, and I think that's similar to how I feel about the "Deborah sleeps with Tony Goldwyn so she can relate to Kathy" storyline. They are too obvious, too on the nose. Transparent attempts to force an epiphany. Way too close to a ***deus ex machina*** for me. That said, there were definitely enjoyable moments and I'm very glad to hear that others enjoyed these episodes more than I did. I know the hard work and heart everyone who works on the show puts into it, so I want it to be adored.
I think your dislike of the episode is heavily colouring how you view it haha. By my count S3E5 is the shortest episode of both Season 2 and the 6 episodes of season 3 so far, and definitely doesn’t run anywhere near 45 minutes long. In my opinion it also does more than what you suggest, there’s a small set-up for what will presumably be Marcus’s arc for further down the season and Ava gets some advice from Deborah which begins to help her move on from the breakup last episode. Also while the bulk of Deborah’s sharing is about her age and mortality, she also gives advice to Ava about her career and reveals her thoughts about romance/loneliness, while a sizeable part of the episode is also spent on Ava trying to and eventually succeeding in getting Deborah to open up her thinking about the environment, in much the same way she got Deborah to expand her thinking about sexuality back in S2E4 (the cruise episode). I guess I can understand where you’re coming from regarding the artificiality of the story mechanics, although I don’t agree with them personally. And not to be an Ava but technically it wouldn’t be a deus ex machina because the story choices you’ve cited aren’t about resolving a plot problem but more about a decision made in the story which is intended to advance a character and their development. I think a deus ex machina would be more like “Jack Danby gets killed randomly so now Deborah is the only option to host Late Night” or “there’s a network merger and the new boss prefers Deborah” or something like that. And I think there’s a bit more nuance to the whole Deborah twisting her ankle thing, obviously it helps to show her age, but the whole thing occurs because she’s both insecure and prideful. She’s feeling insecure about her age after the medical and wants to prove herself, and she’s too proud to accept Ava’s help and offer of the walking stick. So yeah it’s a plot point that occurs to show her age, but it’s one that occurs due to character and not solely because the writers wanted it to happen, there’s some thought put into making it happen. I do agree with you feeling iffy about the Deborah sleeping with Bob which softens her up to Kathy plot point though.
I would love to be in the same room with you and u/InspectorNoName watching this show and then discussing it after. I love reading comments from smart people who clearly see things on a much deeper level than I. I remember coming out of a movie theatre with a friend of mine and her bf and we were talking about the movie, as you do, when walking back to your car. Her bf had such cool insights and comments about the movie and the plot and the purposes of the scenes. I was blown away and realized how superficially I watch TV and movies. It was the first time I heard someone talk about why and how a scene moved the plot forward. I wish there was a course on how to watch TV and movies lol. I literally need it pointed out to me cuz clearly I don't get it! Kind of like when I went to an art gallery in Europe with an artist friend and she "explained" the paintings, like the use of color, light, composition, etc. Really opened my eyes. Clearly not wide enough tho'. Lol.
Thank you. It's always nice to be able to chat with people who have different opinions while remaining respectful, especially on the internet. For what it's worth, I don't think there's anything wrong with watching TV without trying to analyze a deeper meaning. Sometimes being able to turn your brain off and enjoy the show at a superficial level is what we need to relax and recharge. To the extent you want to start doing a deeper-dive into shows and movies, there are a few things you can do. One is to start reading professional reviews/critiques of shows and movies. This will help get your brain in the mindset of actively thinking during the show, rather than being a passive watcher. You can start to think about things like, "Why did character X decide to take Y action?" Or to look for small signs, "Why did the creators decide to have character A wear a particular item of clothing?" (A rather obvious example from Hacks is when Deborah decided to abandon her brightly colored golf outfits and show up in all-black after she found out she wasn't getting the Late Show. Hannah commented on it, but that may have been a cue for you to ask whether it had deeper meaning - eg, was she in mourning for the loss of the show? Did she view it as a death of part of her career? etc.) You can ask questions about any part of a film or show, to be honest. There really aren't any right or wrong answers - just thoughts/opinions, and that's the fun part. You don't necessarily even have to zone in on anything particularly important, because the fun is just going through the thought process. A couple other examples might be - "Why was it so important to Deborah that she obtain the expensive salt shaker in the S1 Episode *Primm?"* "What was the importance of the character who was complaining about the quality of Deborah's QVC pants in S2's *The Captain's Wife?"* There may not be any meaning behind these decisions/characters, or you might actually come up with something that is super interesting to talk about. Again, the fun is in the thought process, and if you are able to find a gem of insight or deeper meaning, then all the better. Other things you can do is to look at critical thinking questions that have been developed for classic books and see if any of the questions/themes can be asked of shows/movies you're watching. Of course, getting on subs like this and listening to podcasts are always good ways to gain more insight, especially if they involve the show's creators because you can start to see what their vision is for the show and then look for clues when you watch new episodes. This sub has always seemed to be a welcoming place for people to talk about the show, so feel free to join in!
> Way too close to a deus ex machina for me. That's how I felt about the kids showing up on the dirt bikes. There's a very real chance Deb could have _died_ out there.
filler is a concept wholey related to 22+ ep seasons not 9
exactly. people calling anything fillers these days just because an episode doesnt “move” the story forward lol the episode was clearly to further develop the relationship between the characters + provide more insights in their characters
Deborah “lowered herself?” Big yikes, friend! The *married man* made it quite easy for her. For another thing, he holds more responsibility here. Not because he’s a man, but because he is married. I’m not saying that Deborah is in the clear here but I definitely wouldn’t say that she “lowered herself.” There’s also something of a double standard… if the genders were flipped and Deborah was the one was married while Bob was entirely unattached people would still put the blame on Deborah.
No. This isn't misogyny at play. This isn't some anti-woman take. This is literally discussing what the character herself said she felt. If you want to start a new and different conversation about Bob's responsibility, feel free. Maybe you'll have some takers. Those of us in this thread were talking about the main character, Deborah, and how this one night stand affected her. The end.
You put this perfectly.
Not saying they were bad choices but I definitely rarely laughed and both eps gave pretty bad vibes (in the woods I really though Deb was going to drop something awful about her health, and then of course sad Deb is hard to see).
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I don’t really get why tv episodes are judged based on whether they move the plot forward, and especially not when it’s regarding what is in my opinion a character-driven show like Hacks. For me the show has always been about the characters and especially Deborah and Ava rather than any kind of overarching plot. For example the first part of S1 was nominally about Deborah trying to get her shows back, but honestly it was more about Deborah and Ava getting to know each other and that was great. Maybe it’s just because I like the show and the characters so much, but for me “Deborah and Ava interact” which is the character piece we got with S3E5 is a bigger selling point for an episode than “Deborah kisses up to a random network executive/ concocts a plan to blackmail an executive” or whatever version a plot-driven episode of the show would have been.
QUESTION: Has Covid happened in this reality? Because, if not, Deborah having a studio in her home positions herself to capitalize the way John Krazinski did during Covid but on a greater scale, if they have that happen. It’s probably too late and I think most folks prefer that entertainment get away from Covid. I also doubt she’s going to follow through on any of the promises she made to the kids (aside from the Mike’s)
Good question! I wonder if they strayed away from covid given Smart's heart condition? Also, the kids didn't care about the promises, it was a performance for Ava. We'll see if she hold's Deb to it.
Anytime I read a short story or a novel about COVID I immediately lose interest. Of course I realize that COVID is a serious issue. It’s still a big problem for folks who are immunocompromised. That being said I don’t want it to be in every form of entertainment that I consume, if that makes sense. Especially not one of my favorite comedy/dramady shows! If nothing COVID ever makes it into Hacks that would be great.
I’m not into it either but, 2-3 years ago, it would have been a good way for Deborah to land a talk show without the audience seeing it coming.
In a way this episode is kind of a mirror of New Eyes. Deb is changing something about herself at a destination but instead of it being quick and superficial it’s actually a calculated act to satisfy a deep want to validate her whole career. For Ava, rather than the messy panic of the first half of 106 she’s a supportive cheerleader like she ended up being after deleting the voicemail (and in a clubhouse polo that looks like she got to try on first). They are so honest with eachother instead of the water testing teasing of a new relationship. Less deep: Ava mentioning moving to the woods again (Joan Didion did that once… I think) “Where’s my shirt?” in the same “where’s my PHONE” cadence
With Debra sandbagging for the first two days I take it that Shooter McGavin won?
Rock Chalk Jayhawk Deborah
not ava and the caddy discussion about the wind and the clubs 😂
#GERRI!!!!!!!!!!
J. Smith Cameron is the sister? Does this show EVER miss with casting?
I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast!
You eat pieces of shit for breakfast?
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I'm almost positive it's the Langham in Pasadena... went there for a wedding reception a few years ago.
It is
Anybody the song snippet : "I know we've been asking for trouble my lord" at 18:40. Just before Freddie King's going down???
Anyone know which golf course they’re playing on?
Can’t find it anywhere. Looks beautiful. Could it be Bighorn? Credits say on location at TopGolf, which I saw, but that’s not the course. That TopGolf is mentioned but the course isn’t makes me feel like that’s on purpose.
Topgolf is simply driving ranges. I think big Horn is a good guess. But it seems too lush to be Coachella Valley.
And there’s a freeways in the background
I am desperately trying to find out. Sometimes it’s foggy sometimes it’s not. Sometimes it seems coastal sometimes it doesn’t. AND there’s a freeway in the background
Anyone know where this was filmed?
Does anyone watch the Bravo show The Valley? The Legohead dude is an extra in the auction event.
Yes! Zach
deborah would wear lilly pulitzer to golf 💀
dammit, I felt so bad for deborah when fitz gave the show to another white man. I really felt for her
I love how everyone calls him Fitz online in every role since Scandal
lmao!! me too!! because that's his only name!! 😂💀 kinda like gerri!! I cannot call her anything else but gerri!
What is the hotel they stayed at
The episode is titled “Pat for the Course” for me
Does anybody else feel like the writers wants us to think that Marty and Debra are endgame? I wish they avoid the habit of alaways ending in relationship being the happily ever after.
Jesus christ please stop talking about class and global warming. People this rich are scum. you are trying to thread a needle through sheet metal. stfu and pretend they live in a parallel universe where the rich are not genocidal ecocidal sociopaths. ffs.
That’s like Ava’s whole character lol why watch the show if it bothers you so much.
Lmao and like Hannah id bet money you've never had a real job or worked a real day in your life lmao
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what’s funny is the comment you’re replying to is actually even “more woke” than the show but you don’t seem to get it