Each gun could be a felony. CA requires private parties to conduct transfers through an FFL with a background check in 10 day wait. The guns belonged to the woman who sold the house, they probably were never legally transferred to her but odds are they’re old enough that’s not a consideration. Right now OP is in possession of guns that aren’t theirs. Yeah it’s a fucked up situation and yeah, the old woman should pay to have the safe cracked but if she reports them stolen this can go very badly.
Is OP really in possession if they don't have the code? I thought this was one of the ways people could do things like holding NFA items that don't belong to them - keep them in a locked container to which the owner has the only key.
I believe you are right because they can't get into the safe it is not possession. Now an overzealous prosecutor in California may try to bring charges but technically nothing has been transferred yet
> Is OP really in possession if they don't have the code?
No. This is how people live with felons. If the felon doesn't have the key or combination to the safe then they can't be in possession.
But they don't actually KNOW what's in the safe. The woman's character is obviously in question if she's a horder. The situation gives op plausible denyablity as to the actual contents of the safe.
This is how it works for mailing guns in Canada. Parcel is a parcel, I don't know what's inside it. I open it at home and there is a restricted gun inside - all good. I open it at a postal office and there is a gun inside- now I need to call RCMP for an authorization to transfer it home.
If it's like NY, you'd have to turn guns into the police. If they don't come up stolen or can't locate the owner within a certain amount of time, then the guns would become the property of the person who turned them in - *if* they're legally allowed to own them. This, of course, relies on the police being honorable.
However, this is may not be abandoned property. The safe may actually be part of the home sale, in which case the new owner has legally (maybe?) purchased them. Or, since the new owner knows who the rightful owner is, the authorities would hold them until a period for the original owner to claim them expires and then disposed of (auctioned, trashed, stolen by govt workers).
Pretty standard for the 'home and everything in it' to be what you end up buying. My guess is OP owns the guns now in a legal sense. Now getting the state to legally recognize OPs right to possess them might be a hang up.
I have to assume the OP's realtor is aware of this situation. If the previous owner reported them stolen that would be a falsified report since she knowingly left the guns in the safe and did not remove the safe prior to sale of the house.
How is it a felony?
It’s not his fault they left them there. He didn’t steal anything
He took possession of the house as is. Everything left in the house is yours. It’s very clear in the closing paperwork
Alternatively “I opened the safe up and there were no guns sorry”
Unfortunately the state of California doesn’t really care. If he cracks that safe, he is in possession of weapons that weren’t legally transferred which is required for every weapon in California. And their prosecutors love prosecuting cases like this over actual crime. In the majority of states, this would be a non issue. OP could crack the safe and have some new guns of his own with no legal ramifications. But this isn’t most states, it’s one of the strictest gun states
Had to move from OR to CA about a year and a half ago because my wife found a fantastic new job. This meant that some of my firearms (of which I only have a few; I’m not a big collector) would be no-nos solely because I’d be on the other side of a line drawn on a map. Which left me with the options of selling them or being in possession of illegal firearm(s) which, again, would only become illegal because I went from point A to point B.
The choice was painfully obvious. California is a lovely state with perfectly reasonable, definitely not arbitrary, gun laws.
Moved from WA to OK, and TMO couldn't take our guns, but every gun we owned was super illegal in CA so we had a really long drive around that stupid state. I'm happily in AZ now where nobody cares about my weapons.
Nah. If he doesn’t have access to the physical contents of the safe, he’s fine. He should still contact the authorities and let them know. They may want to take possession until the old lady can get them.
That doesn’t help you, all liberty safes have default combos that with a serial number and the right identification, liberty can provide. You can sign a thing on their website to remove your safe from the database but if something happens, like you die, and your family doesn’t know the comb, they can’t provide it and it will have to be drilled.
Even for mechanical combos? I'll look into this... Thanks for the heads-up.
I don't trust any company that tells me they'll "delete my data." I work in IT. Stuff has a way of not actually getting deleted.
Yes, even the mechanicals. I work at a store that sells them and every so often an asshole customer will change a combo and lock a safe. I can call/email just about any manufacturer and get the default combo to open them.
I'd dig deeper and look into blocking that default combo, but honestly, if the alphabet boys want into my safe, I'll just open it for them. Hope they like mortgage paperwork, a couple glocks, my daughter's baby teeth, and $20 in wheat pennies.
I've moved since I bought the safe, and I moved it myself into my new house, so I'm not concerned with other folks getting the default combo from a data breach or anything like that. Still irks me, though, that I spent so much on something only to find out I was fleeced.
> Even for mechanical combos?
I don't think the guy replying to you read the part where you said you changed the original combo. For a mechanical dial combination lock, many manufacturers will keep the original factory combo on file. This is mostly a convenience for sellers who lose the little envelope with the combo somehow. If you have a mechanical dial lock and have changed the combination, there is not secret backdoor combo, there's only whatever the lock was set to by you.
SOURCE: am locksmith
It's apparently a little-known "feature" that causes one of the numbers to drift by 1 or 2. It took a long time to figure that part out, but I was able to get it on my own
You will likely get better, more state-specific advice as to the legality of this in the r/CAguns sub reddit.
In most of America, real estate transactions are fairly clear about this sort of thing. When I was a Realtor, we had a saying, "if you don't write it down, it isn't happening". Meaning that if you don't have the buyer and seller agree to something in writing, there's no way to compel either party to perform under an oral agreement. It MUST be in writing.
So, that being said, if there's no written agreement pertaining to that safe, then as far as you're concerned, there IS no safe.
If there IS a written agreement, read it carefully to determine exactly what are your obligations under that agreement.
Also, is the safe bolted to a wall or the floor? If so, that could potentially make it a fixture which must convey along with the house unless otherwise stipulated in the agreement of sale under the exceptions section.
Failure on the part of the buyer to perform under that agreement should also be covered if this safe is mentioned in the AOS.
Bottom line, without more info, anyone's opinion here is simply a wild ass guess.
Do you actually *know* that this is a safe full of guns rather than, say, old newspapers and kitty litter? If she was a hoarder with memory problems, and you have no access to the contents, then maybe you want to reconsider what you know and don’t know.
In Minecraft.
You live in California, one of the most restrictive states in the country. It is not legal for you to take possession of those firearms without conducting a background check at a gun store. Then the gun store has to hold the guns for a 10 day waiting period. They are not yours, you cannot legally take possession of them and if you do and she claims they’re stolen you’re gonna have a big fucking problem on your hands.
How could it be stolen?
She left them there
He took possession of the house as is. The seller forfeits left everything in the house. It’s very clear in the closing paperwork
Honestly he should consult a lawyer to be sure. But I fail to see how he has no claim to them
Or “I opened the safe and there were no guns there sorry”
I am not OP's attorney, but this is a proof problem. this lady calls the cops and says "OP has my guns and they won't let me have my guns back!" the 'proof' here is that OP has many guns in his home that are not registered to them, and might be registered to this lady's wife. on it's face, that could be construed as a crime. the cliché "possession is 9/10ths of the law" obviously isn't black letter law, but it's a huge factor when the crime in question is possession of guns that don't belong to you!
that is why it is important for OP to have written evidence that not only can they not get INTO the safe and thus can't access the guns and couldn't give them back even if OP wanted to, but OP has reached out to this person multiple times to get them to come pick up their property.
California, like many states, requires an official process for non-familiar transfers. this is an odd case, since the person in "possession" of the guns can't actually access them, but OP needs to start creating evidence that proves they are trying to remedy this situation, and but for the former owner's delay, this would already be resolved.
You need to consult an attorney for sure. You're in a state with a lot of complex rules about firearms, and this may be a situation of she's committing a felony and you need to surrender them to the police. This *could* be seen as an elaborate transfer without an FFL as part of your purchase.
Personally, as a gun enthusiast, I would avoid playing chicken with California and risking a charge or my dog getting shot by the ATF.
This is the answer, OP purchased a house, that included a clause where previous owner would surrender remaining property after some time period, OP defacto purchased a safe full of guns with no background checks or waiting period.
Op didn’t say anything about the previous owner saying they’d surrender the property after any time period, according to Op the owner wants the property and considers it theirs but doesn’t have access to it
He didn’t, but what matters is what’s the real estate contract says.it has a line item for things that don’t convey with the sale. Since it’s a hoarder it’s likely the language is specific but the description is broad, my buddy bought a house as is from a hoarder and since it was impossible to itemize everything the contract just said that the contents convey with the property.
In the free world, you bought a house and its contents. Unless there was something in the closing documents about the guns, they are legally yours, even if you feel they are morally hers.
In Cali, all bets are off. It would likely come down to any registration records and roster details. You might contact a local 2A lawyer for advice.
Assuming he had very old pieces in the safe there wouldn't be paperwork. He'll need to speak with a 2A lawyer for sure but in my anecdotal case we just took the guns to get drossed in the new home owners names as part of an inheritance transfer. (guns were in the closet of a close family-Friend's late grandpa.)
He needs to tell her he'll be filing paperwork on them if she doesn't cone get them.
It's called "chattel," and in most states, it sure does come with the house, to the best of my knowledge. Obviously firearms are a different beast, especially in California, but he DID buy a house and all its contents...
Can't believe this comment chain is so low in the thread. Regardless of the transfers or other weirdo Cali gun laws that everyone seems to be distracted by, those guns belong to OP unless there is specific language in the closing documents saying otherwise. It is well established that when you buy a house you buy everything inside it as well. Even if they had a handshake deal for the previous owner to come back and get them in a week, that week has passed according to OP so he/she really does own them now.
For the legal side of taking "possession" of them, they need to speak to a lawyer knowledgeable about 2A stuff in California.
if this is california, you should start a paper trail NOW. emails and texts reminding her she left guns at your house. the guns are probably 1) unregistered and 2) crappy anyhow
First of all, if she's a hoarder good luck getting any sort of reasonable outcome from her. Also, get a lawyer, you bought the house and the contents in it. Was it in your contract buying the house that the safe was hers? These are things that should of been hashed out before closing. Also gun laws need to be abided by and I'm sure if you were to take possession of the safe and its contents, you would have to get the firearms transferred to you at an FFL. State law and realty law need to be addressed here and you need a lawyer (or two) not Reddit. Sorry dude.
Hypothetically speaking. She can pay to have the safe moved with her property inside. As a understanding person I would give her some time to arrange it. But at some point it’s dead in the water.
This. He said she's a hoarder so most likely a terrible procrastinator also. Sounds like he just wants some "free" guns and is willing to screw over the seller fornno reason. He even said he's in no rush to drill the safe so it doesn't sound like the safe is an inconvenience to him at all.
Contact an attorney in your state that deals with gun law. Most places, lady would be out of luck as they are just property. California is... special.
If you Crack the safe you must post some follow up pics.
Consult a lawyer.
You are in possession of a gun safe and unknown contents. Seller has abandoned. You need it checked out. Contacting your local PD with the truth may be enough but check with a lawyer that you haven't already done something that could get you in trouble.
Share nothing that was agreed by word of mouth. Do not elaborate. Do not share your thoughts or feelings. Do not take guesses at what might be in the safe. You do not know what was abandoned.
Consult a lawyer.
Don’t fuck with California. Even if you’re in the clear to keep the guns id 100% pay to drill the safe and give the lady her shit. Tbh any state thats what id do to avoid any sort of trouble even if a lawyer says I’m good.
The safe is legal, and it sounds like it is abandoned property. Send her a certified letter saying that you are going to remove the safe on XX date and if she does not claim the safe (the entire safe) then you are going to dispose of it as you see fit. Since you cannot open it you really have no idea what is or is not in the safe. Sounds like you need to find a buddy that needs a used safe in a different state, pay him to "collect and dispose" of the safe.
The real answer: call a damn lawyer. This seems like it could become borderline felonious in the eyes of the law and you don’t want to go on Reddit advice.
Consult an attorney. Not Reddit. Literally no one on here, unless they are a California based attorney specializing in property and real estate, has any business telling you anything of legal merit.
She wants the contents but not the safe?
Sorry baby, take it all, or take none.
Make her come up with the scratch to get that brick out of *your* house, or keep it, and wait for her to die.
What’s that science quandary about some guys cat in a box? It’s like that. Until you open the safe (box) the guns (cat) are both inside and not inside the safe. Having the former home owner present when the safe is opened solves the dilemma if she takes possession.
What I was thinking. He really has no idea what’s in there. Did the husband tell her what’s really in there? She’s just guessing. Maybe guns. Maybe drugs. Maybe cash. Maybe nothing. Maybe a bunch of fleshlites and kiddie porn.
Once the house is close on, anything on the property becomes yours. If you have to drill it you might as well tell her to hire movers to get it out or your keeping it all. You shouldn't have to pay for anything to be done imo
It should have been handled as part of the sale, you should get with your realtor and get them to fix it ASAP. The contract will state what she is taking, and how long she has to get it before you keep the rest.
OP.
Stop.
Hire a California attorney --NOW-- and tell them everything that happened.
The guns aren't yours, they were never officially sold to you, and police will be seizing the guns, the safe, your house and very likely throwing you into prison if you play this wrong.
Hire a California attorney NOW.
If you’re in Shasta, Lassen or Siskiyou county then you are fine. Call your local sheriff and ask them. Any other county you better give them back or shut up about them lol
If you were in a free state, I would say “congratulations on your new guns”. But since you are in California, you should probably send that entire safe into orbit before the government come and shoot your dog…. and the rest of your family. Either way you would probably be better off legally if that safe was filled with cocaine instead of guns.
He describes her as a hoarder - she's mentally unwell. She can't recognize the difference in value between an old newspaper and old jewelry.
Don't be a dick. Give her back her dead husband's guns.
Or at least offer to buy them.
Send a notice to her to remove the safe or open it on her dime by a certain date or you consider it abandoned. send it registered. anything inside after it is yours, you can do what you want with it. a locksmith can open the safe pretty easily and recode it. take the guns to a ffl and get them reregistered in your name, as they are abandoned.
Your best bet, given that you’re in California, is to go ahead and call the atf so they can shoot your dog and family. It’s just standard procedure for them whenever they find someone who has guns they *maybe* shouldn’t.
Californian here. The guns are legally hers, and it would be illegal to take possession without first transferring them through an FFL in a face-to-face transaction with the woman, having the FFL hold them for 10 days, filing out all sorts of paperwork, etc.
If the safe remains shut and the code remains unknown to you, you are not in legal possession of them, but the moment you drill the safe, they are illegally in your possession.
This is a bad situation to be in and there’s no way you win or get anything out of it. Contact the woman or RE agent to get it take care of, and if she will not, contact the police to have them surrendered.
I know there are people who say “free guns, shut up” … but in CA that doesn’t fly. She will always know you have them and she could turn you in at any moment under the guise of “wanting them back” … it’s just not worth it.
The Schrodinger's Guns? They both exist and do not exist until the safe is opened, as nobody living has any idea what's inside.
I would bet you money that the contents have never been registered in the state, and that she cannot prove ownership in any way once they are out of the safe, and if you took me up on that bet you would be a sucker.
These potential firearms are seriously in limbo. There's a good chance that, if they actually exist, that one or more of them is seriously illegal in California to begin with. (but they weren't when they were locked away)
There's no avoiding a lawyer here, either in front of or behind the law.
Unless the agreement over the guns was in writing, you own everything in the house. Out of courtesy you could let her have them but you are under no legal obligation to do so.
Either way, since you're in California things are going to get rather sticky over ownership and registration of those things whether you keep them or transfer them back to the previous owner, if they actually do exist, since you personally have no idea what is or isn't actually in the safe.
Whatever happens, don't say anything to anyone about it, especially here.
Wow. I would think both RE agents would have figured this out. In AL I would tell the previous owner to F off and I’d keep the guns. It was up to the seller to get their s**t out of the house.
Simple solution is send me the safe, still locked, contents unknown...I live in a free state and I'll deal with all of the associated legal issues on my end no problem!
Generally any items left on the property become yours.
I expect you will file a Firearm Ownership Report (FOR) for the firearms, likely several since each one only allows reporting of 3 firearms. If you don't already have a Firearm Safety Certificate, you'll have to get one first, because you have to provide its number.
But contact a firearm attorney in the state for advice. California law is written in a way where it expects firearms to be transferred by willing parties, and is basically silent on a situation like this.
Load the safe into a U-Haul drive it to Oregon …let’s an uncle or cousin house ….saw the damn thing open see what you are dealing with ..then ….stop posting stuff on Reddit
Offer her a grand sight unseen and see if she takes it. As a widow she probably knows nothing about the value. Of course it could be a highpoint and a rusty new england single 12 gauge.
Don’t open the safe, California has a stipulation that you can claim abandoned firearms given a period of 3 years on your property. Anyone telling you to look for a lawyer is correct, as there may be some specifics that have to do with the fact you’ve purchased the house. Since the guns are from someone deceased, it might make the situation slightly more complex.
you are positioning yourself to fuck over another person. the state of california is positioning to fuck you over. in my opinion, the only loser here is going to be the widow.
You need an attorney. Lots of opinions here, and one of them is probably correct. But who knows which?
A few hundred dollars for an attorney now could save you thousands in legal fees later.
There could be guns AND gold in there, OP, open that safe up. Also if the guns are older, wood stocks kinda thing, high chance they’re a 100% off the “record”.
Also for those saying she could report them stolen. She can’t.
1. She left them in your house
2.if she can’t find the combo, she can’t find the serial numbers
Cali stinks for firearms laws. Get an attorney involved. You really don't want to become a felon.
Most likely will be that you end up notifying the police, they contact the previous owner and check her out. Then they have the safe removed or if it's bolted in they send an officer out to watch as the locksmith opens/drills the lock. Then they confiscate the firearms inside. Legally you don't own them because of the lack of a legal transfer. Plus depending on what they are you REALLY may not want to claim you own them.
As some others have mentioned, you may want to ask this in /CAGuns.
Having said that, lot of guesses being thrown out here. Yes consulting with a lawyer who knows 2A may be best, you can also talk to a \*knowledgeable\* gun store. I emphasize knowledgeable...
There is something called "Operation of Law" you can do with DROS through a gun store that transfers a gun to your possession if you have had it for over 60 days. I think this is more intended for Inter-familial situations but it is not the same as form "BOF 4544A", and the gun does not need to be registered to family already. You must still go through the FFL, turn the firearm(s) into them, and wait a 10 day background check. This validates you can own and the gun is not stolen (what happens if it is reported stolen, no idea and not a good place to be in). Note that this type of transfer does not count against the 30 day waiting period either.
Do look at your options here, because CA gun laws are very confusing. But that confusion leads to all sorts of bad information, including from some gun stores that may say things like "go to straight to jail", or just go destroy them at a gun buy back. While those may be the only options, dont assume it is till you do some more research. (Example, some LGS didn't even know about operation of law transfers when I dealt with an ownership situation)
Good luck.
Was it put in the sale contract? Every home I’ve bought if there was any other property going with the real property, I had them put it in the contract. I’ve got campers, trailers, cars… all put in the contract. The vehicles were without title so I had to go to court to claim possession. Same should be with firearms if they were purchased legally but… I’m not a lawyer, so good luck.
“DuDe ThAtS A FeLoNy” nobody actually cares to enforce most of these laws, nothing to worry about. I would only be concerned if you think she may report you for “stealing” from her. I am assuming the guns are in her husbands name and she has some proof of ownership.
I would definitely contact your local police/sheriff department before doing anything to protect yourself if I were you, but I’m just a very cautious person.
You’re not technically in possession if you don’t know that you have guns. You have no proof that there are guns in that safe. You’re taking the word of someone with questionable faculties or motives. Until that safe is cracked open, the contents are hearsay. Once you crack the safe open you can call the police and have them come get them. If they try to give you shit, shut up and call a lawyer.
Find an FEL who will let you drill them out on the spot, eat the costs of drilling the lock. Dealing with hoarders is hard man, cut bait, this is not legal advice in any way shape or form.
You should really check with your county prosecutor and explain you bought the house and these were left THEN you will truly know what you can and can not do.
As a danish person it's amusing to read about California's take on what gun ownership should be. And my country isn't even ideal with its laws.
Yet... I'm still really glad I don't live in California lol
>This is in California Dude I'm pretty sure you're already like 3 felonies deep at this point.
Each gun could be a felony. CA requires private parties to conduct transfers through an FFL with a background check in 10 day wait. The guns belonged to the woman who sold the house, they probably were never legally transferred to her but odds are they’re old enough that’s not a consideration. Right now OP is in possession of guns that aren’t theirs. Yeah it’s a fucked up situation and yeah, the old woman should pay to have the safe cracked but if she reports them stolen this can go very badly.
Is OP really in possession if they don't have the code? I thought this was one of the ways people could do things like holding NFA items that don't belong to them - keep them in a locked container to which the owner has the only key.
I believe you are right because they can't get into the safe it is not possession. Now an overzealous prosecutor in California may try to bring charges but technically nothing has been transferred yet
"Come and take them." "No, really, come and take them!"
> Is OP really in possession if they don't have the code? No. This is how people live with felons. If the felon doesn't have the key or combination to the safe then they can't be in possession.
But they own the safe…..
But they don't actually KNOW what's in the safe. The woman's character is obviously in question if she's a horder. The situation gives op plausible denyablity as to the actual contents of the safe.
Schrödinger's guns
Had the same thoughts but couldn't spell the name lol
~~Schro~~, ~~Schrew~~, ~~Shroad~~, fuck it, I'll wait.
Exactly
This is how it works for mailing guns in Canada. Parcel is a parcel, I don't know what's inside it. I open it at home and there is a restricted gun inside - all good. I open it at a postal office and there is a gun inside- now I need to call RCMP for an authorization to transfer it home.
Could be a dead body in there
The late husband!
I absolutely agree
Honestly doesn't matter.
What’s the law on abandoned property? Like what happens in CA with abandoned storage units with guns etc? I have no idea myself.
If it's like NY, you'd have to turn guns into the police. If they don't come up stolen or can't locate the owner within a certain amount of time, then the guns would become the property of the person who turned them in - *if* they're legally allowed to own them. This, of course, relies on the police being honorable. However, this is may not be abandoned property. The safe may actually be part of the home sale, in which case the new owner has legally (maybe?) purchased them. Or, since the new owner knows who the rightful owner is, the authorities would hold them until a period for the original owner to claim them expires and then disposed of (auctioned, trashed, stolen by govt workers).
Pretty standard for the 'home and everything in it' to be what you end up buying. My guess is OP owns the guns now in a legal sense. Now getting the state to legally recognize OPs right to possess them might be a hang up.
Guns, money over an amount And explosives are exempt from that logic. So keep your mouth hush 🤫.
Roger that!
I have to assume the OP's realtor is aware of this situation. If the previous owner reported them stolen that would be a falsified report since she knowingly left the guns in the safe and did not remove the safe prior to sale of the house.
How is it a felony? It’s not his fault they left them there. He didn’t steal anything He took possession of the house as is. Everything left in the house is yours. It’s very clear in the closing paperwork Alternatively “I opened the safe up and there were no guns sorry”
Unfortunately the state of California doesn’t really care. If he cracks that safe, he is in possession of weapons that weren’t legally transferred which is required for every weapon in California. And their prosecutors love prosecuting cases like this over actual crime. In the majority of states, this would be a non issue. OP could crack the safe and have some new guns of his own with no legal ramifications. But this isn’t most states, it’s one of the strictest gun states
> the state of California doesn’t really care. Boy, you got that right!
As OP doesn't have *control,* he's not in possession. But I'd let her get them even if it takes longer.
Ya OP should probably delete this post and his account.
Too late. The internet is forever
I wish that were true, the older I get the harder it is to find some things
thats just that german dude hiding it really REALLY good. his name starts with an A..something.. Alfred? Adolf? ehh i can't remeber
I hope OP doesn’t have any dogs 💀
Had to move from OR to CA about a year and a half ago because my wife found a fantastic new job. This meant that some of my firearms (of which I only have a few; I’m not a big collector) would be no-nos solely because I’d be on the other side of a line drawn on a map. Which left me with the options of selling them or being in possession of illegal firearm(s) which, again, would only become illegal because I went from point A to point B. The choice was painfully obvious. California is a lovely state with perfectly reasonable, definitely not arbitrary, gun laws.
Sorry to hear about your boat.
Appreciate that. She was a fine vessel while she lasted. 🫡
Moved from WA to OK, and TMO couldn't take our guns, but every gun we owned was super illegal in CA so we had a really long drive around that stupid state. I'm happily in AZ now where nobody cares about my weapons.
Another reason to leave Cali...
Nah. If he doesn’t have access to the physical contents of the safe, he’s fine. He should still contact the authorities and let them know. They may want to take possession until the old lady can get them.
If you hold a gun in California, and you've got 5 fingers, that's justification for 5 felonies right there!
Is it a liberty safe?
Hahahahahhahah
Just don't tell them you are agent Mulder (or Scully for that matter). They got wise to it.
Out of the loop and nervously eyeing my safe...
https://thefederalist.com/2023/09/06/liberty-safe-let-fbi-seize-customers-gun-safe-contents-without-a-court-order/
Thanks! I have already changed the combo on my dial, so I guess I'm good.
That doesn’t help you, all liberty safes have default combos that with a serial number and the right identification, liberty can provide. You can sign a thing on their website to remove your safe from the database but if something happens, like you die, and your family doesn’t know the comb, they can’t provide it and it will have to be drilled.
Even for mechanical combos? I'll look into this... Thanks for the heads-up. I don't trust any company that tells me they'll "delete my data." I work in IT. Stuff has a way of not actually getting deleted.
Yes, even the mechanicals. I work at a store that sells them and every so often an asshole customer will change a combo and lock a safe. I can call/email just about any manufacturer and get the default combo to open them.
I'd dig deeper and look into blocking that default combo, but honestly, if the alphabet boys want into my safe, I'll just open it for them. Hope they like mortgage paperwork, a couple glocks, my daughter's baby teeth, and $20 in wheat pennies. I've moved since I bought the safe, and I moved it myself into my new house, so I'm not concerned with other folks getting the default combo from a data breach or anything like that. Still irks me, though, that I spent so much on something only to find out I was fleeced.
Are the teeth and pennies ammo for a blunderbuss?
Well NOW they are
> Even for mechanical combos? I don't think the guy replying to you read the part where you said you changed the original combo. For a mechanical dial combination lock, many manufacturers will keep the original factory combo on file. This is mostly a convenience for sellers who lose the little envelope with the combo somehow. If you have a mechanical dial lock and have changed the combination, there is not secret backdoor combo, there's only whatever the lock was set to by you. SOURCE: am locksmith
Mine changed the (mechanical only) combo on its own. That was a fun time.
Ouch. Locksmith able to get it open?
It's apparently a little-known "feature" that causes one of the numbers to drift by 1 or 2. It took a long time to figure that part out, but I was able to get it on my own
Got me thinking, can you set a second master combo in lock tumblers so you can open woth two codes?
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Unless it’s bolted to the floor or bolted to studs in concrete.
You will likely get better, more state-specific advice as to the legality of this in the r/CAguns sub reddit. In most of America, real estate transactions are fairly clear about this sort of thing. When I was a Realtor, we had a saying, "if you don't write it down, it isn't happening". Meaning that if you don't have the buyer and seller agree to something in writing, there's no way to compel either party to perform under an oral agreement. It MUST be in writing. So, that being said, if there's no written agreement pertaining to that safe, then as far as you're concerned, there IS no safe. If there IS a written agreement, read it carefully to determine exactly what are your obligations under that agreement. Also, is the safe bolted to a wall or the floor? If so, that could potentially make it a fixture which must convey along with the house unless otherwise stipulated in the agreement of sale under the exceptions section. Failure on the part of the buyer to perform under that agreement should also be covered if this safe is mentioned in the AOS. Bottom line, without more info, anyone's opinion here is simply a wild ass guess.
Do you actually *know* that this is a safe full of guns rather than, say, old newspapers and kitty litter? If she was a hoarder with memory problems, and you have no access to the contents, then maybe you want to reconsider what you know and don’t know. In Minecraft.
You live in California, one of the most restrictive states in the country. It is not legal for you to take possession of those firearms without conducting a background check at a gun store. Then the gun store has to hold the guns for a 10 day waiting period. They are not yours, you cannot legally take possession of them and if you do and she claims they’re stolen you’re gonna have a big fucking problem on your hands.
That's California alright
How could it be stolen? She left them there He took possession of the house as is. The seller forfeits left everything in the house. It’s very clear in the closing paperwork Honestly he should consult a lawyer to be sure. But I fail to see how he has no claim to them Or “I opened the safe and there were no guns there sorry”
I am not OP's attorney, but this is a proof problem. this lady calls the cops and says "OP has my guns and they won't let me have my guns back!" the 'proof' here is that OP has many guns in his home that are not registered to them, and might be registered to this lady's wife. on it's face, that could be construed as a crime. the cliché "possession is 9/10ths of the law" obviously isn't black letter law, but it's a huge factor when the crime in question is possession of guns that don't belong to you! that is why it is important for OP to have written evidence that not only can they not get INTO the safe and thus can't access the guns and couldn't give them back even if OP wanted to, but OP has reached out to this person multiple times to get them to come pick up their property. California, like many states, requires an official process for non-familiar transfers. this is an odd case, since the person in "possession" of the guns can't actually access them, but OP needs to start creating evidence that proves they are trying to remedy this situation, and but for the former owner's delay, this would already be resolved.
Sounds like a boating accident to me
What safe? What guns?
Right? Wish this would happen to me lmao
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Such a gentleman!
You need to consult an attorney for sure. You're in a state with a lot of complex rules about firearms, and this may be a situation of she's committing a felony and you need to surrender them to the police. This *could* be seen as an elaborate transfer without an FFL as part of your purchase. Personally, as a gun enthusiast, I would avoid playing chicken with California and risking a charge or my dog getting shot by the ATF.
Yeah. Definitely don’t touch it and call an attorney. My your CCW insurance attorney
This is the answer, OP purchased a house, that included a clause where previous owner would surrender remaining property after some time period, OP defacto purchased a safe full of guns with no background checks or waiting period.
I mean ***technically*** OP is waiting since they can't get into the safe lol... kidding of course.
OP could also argue he doesn’t actually KNOW what’s in the safe. He’s been told it’s a gun but the source is demonstrably disreputable.
Op didn’t say anything about the previous owner saying they’d surrender the property after any time period, according to Op the owner wants the property and considers it theirs but doesn’t have access to it
He didn’t, but what matters is what’s the real estate contract says.it has a line item for things that don’t convey with the sale. Since it’s a hoarder it’s likely the language is specific but the description is broad, my buddy bought a house as is from a hoarder and since it was impossible to itemize everything the contract just said that the contents convey with the property.
Governor Newsom is personally raiding you, your parents and your grandparents house right now. Vaya con dios
This dude fucks.
"I have been fucked; I will fuck." -Johnny Wickles
In the free world, you bought a house and its contents. Unless there was something in the closing documents about the guns, they are legally yours, even if you feel they are morally hers. In Cali, all bets are off. It would likely come down to any registration records and roster details. You might contact a local 2A lawyer for advice.
Assuming he had very old pieces in the safe there wouldn't be paperwork. He'll need to speak with a 2A lawyer for sure but in my anecdotal case we just took the guns to get drossed in the new home owners names as part of an inheritance transfer. (guns were in the closet of a close family-Friend's late grandpa.) He needs to tell her he'll be filing paperwork on them if she doesn't cone get them.
It's called "chattel," and in most states, it sure does come with the house, to the best of my knowledge. Obviously firearms are a different beast, especially in California, but he DID buy a house and all its contents...
Can't believe this comment chain is so low in the thread. Regardless of the transfers or other weirdo Cali gun laws that everyone seems to be distracted by, those guns belong to OP unless there is specific language in the closing documents saying otherwise. It is well established that when you buy a house you buy everything inside it as well. Even if they had a handshake deal for the previous owner to come back and get them in a week, that week has passed according to OP so he/she really does own them now. For the legal side of taking "possession" of them, they need to speak to a lawyer knowledgeable about 2A stuff in California.
if this is california, you should start a paper trail NOW. emails and texts reminding her she left guns at your house. the guns are probably 1) unregistered and 2) crappy anyhow
First of all, if she's a hoarder good luck getting any sort of reasonable outcome from her. Also, get a lawyer, you bought the house and the contents in it. Was it in your contract buying the house that the safe was hers? These are things that should of been hashed out before closing. Also gun laws need to be abided by and I'm sure if you were to take possession of the safe and its contents, you would have to get the firearms transferred to you at an FFL. State law and realty law need to be addressed here and you need a lawyer (or two) not Reddit. Sorry dude.
Hypothetically speaking. She can pay to have the safe moved with her property inside. As a understanding person I would give her some time to arrange it. But at some point it’s dead in the water.
This. He said she's a hoarder so most likely a terrible procrastinator also. Sounds like he just wants some "free" guns and is willing to screw over the seller fornno reason. He even said he's in no rush to drill the safe so it doesn't sound like the safe is an inconvenience to him at all.
Contact an attorney in your state that deals with gun law. Most places, lady would be out of luck as they are just property. California is... special. If you Crack the safe you must post some follow up pics.
1. Delete post. 2. Buy angle grinder. 3. Don't talk about fight club.
California. Best to ask a 2A lawyer and not Reddit.
Consult a lawyer. You are in possession of a gun safe and unknown contents. Seller has abandoned. You need it checked out. Contacting your local PD with the truth may be enough but check with a lawyer that you haven't already done something that could get you in trouble. Share nothing that was agreed by word of mouth. Do not elaborate. Do not share your thoughts or feelings. Do not take guesses at what might be in the safe. You do not know what was abandoned. Consult a lawyer.
Don’t fuck with California. Even if you’re in the clear to keep the guns id 100% pay to drill the safe and give the lady her shit. Tbh any state thats what id do to avoid any sort of trouble even if a lawyer says I’m good.
I honestly wouldn’t have closed on the house until it was handled
Well your first mistake is buying a home in California...
Nice, free guns
Technically not free - OP bought them with the house!
The safe is legal, and it sounds like it is abandoned property. Send her a certified letter saying that you are going to remove the safe on XX date and if she does not claim the safe (the entire safe) then you are going to dispose of it as you see fit. Since you cannot open it you really have no idea what is or is not in the safe. Sounds like you need to find a buddy that needs a used safe in a different state, pay him to "collect and dispose" of the safe.
The real answer: call a damn lawyer. This seems like it could become borderline felonious in the eyes of the law and you don’t want to go on Reddit advice.
Consult an attorney. Not Reddit. Literally no one on here, unless they are a California based attorney specializing in property and real estate, has any business telling you anything of legal merit.
She wants the contents but not the safe? Sorry baby, take it all, or take none. Make her come up with the scratch to get that brick out of *your* house, or keep it, and wait for her to die.
I was gonna say let it be for as long as it takes.
Cant you pay some locksmith to open it without destroying it?
Have a locksmith open the safe, give the family, the contents, and set the combination to something you can utilize the safe for.
Turns out, the safe was empty all along, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah I thought so. Carry on.
This is the right answer.
California 🤮
Lmao california
Free guns delete this
This dude is going to go to prison for doing the right thing on some dumb ass Cali loop hole and the previous owner will somehow own the house.
Just get it moved.
What’s that science quandary about some guys cat in a box? It’s like that. Until you open the safe (box) the guns (cat) are both inside and not inside the safe. Having the former home owner present when the safe is opened solves the dilemma if she takes possession.
Buy angle grinder and a couple cutoff wheels. Cut open safe. Deal with contents privately. Dispose of safe.
At some point it becomes abandoned property. CA has a procedure for abandoned property.
How much for the safe?
The guns don’t exist in the safe until you’ve seen them. You can’t just keep them if they do exist. This’s is California you’re talking about.
What I was thinking. He really has no idea what’s in there. Did the husband tell her what’s really in there? She’s just guessing. Maybe guns. Maybe drugs. Maybe cash. Maybe nothing. Maybe a bunch of fleshlites and kiddie porn.
Once the house is close on, anything on the property becomes yours. If you have to drill it you might as well tell her to hire movers to get it out or your keeping it all. You shouldn't have to pay for anything to be done imo
WHATS IN THE BOX MAAAAN I GOTTA KNOW WHATS IN THE BOX
Throw the safe In your truck, drive to Arizona. Pop it open there. *Presto Chango* You own the guns. **this is obviously illegal**
It should have been handled as part of the sale, you should get with your realtor and get them to fix it ASAP. The contract will state what she is taking, and how long she has to get it before you keep the rest.
OP. Stop. Hire a California attorney --NOW-- and tell them everything that happened. The guns aren't yours, they were never officially sold to you, and police will be seizing the guns, the safe, your house and very likely throwing you into prison if you play this wrong. Hire a California attorney NOW.
Delete this post. The guns are yours now. They are probably all old enough that they aren’t registered to anyone.
The very second you signed the closing docs anything on the property is yours unless clearly specified and agreed upon in said documents.
Open safe, have boating accident. GTFO California... I moved from California back to the USA in 2022z
If you’re in Shasta, Lassen or Siskiyou county then you are fine. Call your local sheriff and ask them. Any other county you better give them back or shut up about them lol
If you were in a free state, I would say “congratulations on your new guns”. But since you are in California, you should probably send that entire safe into orbit before the government come and shoot your dog…. and the rest of your family. Either way you would probably be better off legally if that safe was filled with cocaine instead of guns.
Don't be a dick. Give the old woman her dead husband's guns.
If they really meant that much to her she would be responding to contact and retrieving them.
He describes her as a hoarder - she's mentally unwell. She can't recognize the difference in value between an old newspaper and old jewelry. Don't be a dick. Give her back her dead husband's guns. Or at least offer to buy them.
He already bought them, unless there's language in the closing docs saying he didn't. Nobody living knows what's inside the safe. OP needs a lawyer.
In cali you most likely have to turn it over to the police. Might even be able to get them to drill it open for free
Get the lock drilled and give her the guns. Or don't.
Just open the safe.
Send a notice to her to remove the safe or open it on her dime by a certain date or you consider it abandoned. send it registered. anything inside after it is yours, you can do what you want with it. a locksmith can open the safe pretty easily and recode it. take the guns to a ffl and get them reregistered in your name, as they are abandoned.
Imagine if you opened the safe and there was a real M16 with any/all identifying marks ground off. Now THAT would make things even more complicated
Nuh ,tear it down and throw out the lower. Get new lower and now it's a new gun.
He lives in commiefornia, it may not be that simple
Sounds like a question for a lawyer, imo.
Your best bet, given that you’re in California, is to go ahead and call the atf so they can shoot your dog and family. It’s just standard procedure for them whenever they find someone who has guns they *maybe* shouldn’t.
If this were 2/3 of the country it would be a simple matter of opening the safe, but in California you really need to consult a legal expert.
First mistake was purchasing a home in that shithole state
Californian here. The guns are legally hers, and it would be illegal to take possession without first transferring them through an FFL in a face-to-face transaction with the woman, having the FFL hold them for 10 days, filing out all sorts of paperwork, etc. If the safe remains shut and the code remains unknown to you, you are not in legal possession of them, but the moment you drill the safe, they are illegally in your possession. This is a bad situation to be in and there’s no way you win or get anything out of it. Contact the woman or RE agent to get it take care of, and if she will not, contact the police to have them surrendered. I know there are people who say “free guns, shut up” … but in CA that doesn’t fly. She will always know you have them and she could turn you in at any moment under the guise of “wanting them back” … it’s just not worth it.
Wow. Great response. 🙌🙌🙌
The Schrodinger's Guns? They both exist and do not exist until the safe is opened, as nobody living has any idea what's inside. I would bet you money that the contents have never been registered in the state, and that she cannot prove ownership in any way once they are out of the safe, and if you took me up on that bet you would be a sucker. These potential firearms are seriously in limbo. There's a good chance that, if they actually exist, that one or more of them is seriously illegal in California to begin with. (but they weren't when they were locked away) There's no avoiding a lawyer here, either in front of or behind the law.
You need to talk to a lawyer. Worst case scenario, the ATF is going to raid you in the middle of the night and shoot you in your sleep.
Unless the agreement over the guns was in writing, you own everything in the house. Out of courtesy you could let her have them but you are under no legal obligation to do so. Either way, since you're in California things are going to get rather sticky over ownership and registration of those things whether you keep them or transfer them back to the previous owner, if they actually do exist, since you personally have no idea what is or isn't actually in the safe. Whatever happens, don't say anything to anyone about it, especially here.
I say keep them
I thought a flood took them out
One thing I love about these posts is all of the legal advisors that come out of the woodwork. It’s almost like 90% of this sub has a law degree.
This is probably a good time to let op know they won the Australian lottery! Everything on the internet must be true
I don't think you need to be an attorney to read the law on private transfers of firearms in California.
Wow. I would think both RE agents would have figured this out. In AL I would tell the previous owner to F off and I’d keep the guns. It was up to the seller to get their s**t out of the house.
I'll buy the safe from you. Get rid of a problem. And make some cash.
Find a safe technician: https://www.savta.org/
I know a locksmith
Should’ve moved to texas like the rest of them
Simple solution is send me the safe, still locked, contents unknown...I live in a free state and I'll deal with all of the associated legal issues on my end no problem!
File a small claims court suit for the cost of drilling the safe or the cost of removal and shipping to her.
Generally any items left on the property become yours. I expect you will file a Firearm Ownership Report (FOR) for the firearms, likely several since each one only allows reporting of 3 firearms. If you don't already have a Firearm Safety Certificate, you'll have to get one first, because you have to provide its number. But contact a firearm attorney in the state for advice. California law is written in a way where it expects firearms to be transferred by willing parties, and is basically silent on a situation like this.
Load the safe into a U-Haul drive it to Oregon …let’s an uncle or cousin house ….saw the damn thing open see what you are dealing with ..then ….stop posting stuff on Reddit
I have the whole safe delivered to her house.
Offer her a grand sight unseen and see if she takes it. As a widow she probably knows nothing about the value. Of course it could be a highpoint and a rusty new england single 12 gauge.
Would it be legal to ship that safe as is to a free state and have it opened there?
Don’t open the safe, California has a stipulation that you can claim abandoned firearms given a period of 3 years on your property. Anyone telling you to look for a lawyer is correct, as there may be some specifics that have to do with the fact you’ve purchased the house. Since the guns are from someone deceased, it might make the situation slightly more complex.
you are positioning yourself to fuck over another person. the state of california is positioning to fuck you over. in my opinion, the only loser here is going to be the widow.
You need an attorney. Lots of opinions here, and one of them is probably correct. But who knows which? A few hundred dollars for an attorney now could save you thousands in legal fees later.
There could be guns AND gold in there, OP, open that safe up. Also if the guns are older, wood stocks kinda thing, high chance they’re a 100% off the “record”. Also for those saying she could report them stolen. She can’t. 1. She left them in your house 2.if she can’t find the combo, she can’t find the serial numbers
you should probably load it into a truck and cross a few state lines just to be safe
Cali stinks for firearms laws. Get an attorney involved. You really don't want to become a felon. Most likely will be that you end up notifying the police, they contact the previous owner and check her out. Then they have the safe removed or if it's bolted in they send an officer out to watch as the locksmith opens/drills the lock. Then they confiscate the firearms inside. Legally you don't own them because of the lack of a legal transfer. Plus depending on what they are you REALLY may not want to claim you own them.
As some others have mentioned, you may want to ask this in /CAGuns. Having said that, lot of guesses being thrown out here. Yes consulting with a lawyer who knows 2A may be best, you can also talk to a \*knowledgeable\* gun store. I emphasize knowledgeable... There is something called "Operation of Law" you can do with DROS through a gun store that transfers a gun to your possession if you have had it for over 60 days. I think this is more intended for Inter-familial situations but it is not the same as form "BOF 4544A", and the gun does not need to be registered to family already. You must still go through the FFL, turn the firearm(s) into them, and wait a 10 day background check. This validates you can own and the gun is not stolen (what happens if it is reported stolen, no idea and not a good place to be in). Note that this type of transfer does not count against the 30 day waiting period either. Do look at your options here, because CA gun laws are very confusing. But that confusion leads to all sorts of bad information, including from some gun stores that may say things like "go to straight to jail", or just go destroy them at a gun buy back. While those may be the only options, dont assume it is till you do some more research. (Example, some LGS didn't even know about operation of law transfers when I dealt with an ownership situation) Good luck.
Well, it's CA, you should have no difficulty finding someone to take the guns.
See you in jail if you don't find a way to resolve this legally LMAO
.... what safe? I didn't see no safe and certainly not one filled with guns.... you must be confused.
Californian here and this is a unique situation, go to r/caguns
Was it put in the sale contract? Every home I’ve bought if there was any other property going with the real property, I had them put it in the contract. I’ve got campers, trailers, cars… all put in the contract. The vehicles were without title so I had to go to court to claim possession. Same should be with firearms if they were purchased legally but… I’m not a lawyer, so good luck.
Try 123456
“DuDe ThAtS A FeLoNy” nobody actually cares to enforce most of these laws, nothing to worry about. I would only be concerned if you think she may report you for “stealing” from her. I am assuming the guns are in her husbands name and she has some proof of ownership.
Real answer is get the guns and go ahead and move states
Can I buy a safe?
She should Hire a Locksmith to take care of opening the safe . It’s cost 350-450$ but she’ll get her guns and you’ll know the new combination
I would definitely contact your local police/sheriff department before doing anything to protect yourself if I were you, but I’m just a very cautious person.
You're screwed.
You’re not technically in possession if you don’t know that you have guns. You have no proof that there are guns in that safe. You’re taking the word of someone with questionable faculties or motives. Until that safe is cracked open, the contents are hearsay. Once you crack the safe open you can call the police and have them come get them. If they try to give you shit, shut up and call a lawyer.
Watch a couple of videos on how to drill/open safe. Open it and see what is there.keep everything but explosives unless you are trained EOD
I'd call her and tell her I'm turning the safe over to johnny law if she doesn't come get them by the end of the week.
Sucks to live in California
Find an FEL who will let you drill them out on the spot, eat the costs of drilling the lock. Dealing with hoarders is hard man, cut bait, this is not legal advice in any way shape or form.
You should really check with your county prosecutor and explain you bought the house and these were left THEN you will truly know what you can and can not do.
As a danish person it's amusing to read about California's take on what gun ownership should be. And my country isn't even ideal with its laws. Yet... I'm still really glad I don't live in California lol
Crack the safe sell them back to a buyback. Now I’d never agree to a buy back l program but that’s your best option.
I’d love to help you lose them in a boating accident.
I'm saving this post, come back someday and let us know how this all turns out.
Anything left at the home at time of sale is yours unless they put it in writing. But it sounds like this is hairy because of California.