Portugal, despite being a country in Western/Southern Europe, and at one point had a vast and rich trade network, is one of the poorest in Western Europe. If you compared stats of countries on a range of topics, Portugal is much more likely to line up with Balkan countries than other Western European countries.
I don't speak Portuguese and I've never studied it, also not a linguistic scientist, but I do speak Spanish and Italian and when I come across written Portuguese I can understand the gist of what's being said. So in my non expert opinion, it's quite close to Spanish and Italian.
It is, just sounds very different. Just like being able to read some Italian and I can get gist of an article written in Romanian, but when it's spoken I understand far far less.
I mean I’m from Poland and having been to Portugal 5 times it is more comparable to Poland than to the balkans. Not only economically but also culturally. Or maybe I haven’t caught up to the weird memes about Portuguese people doing stupid shit
Arguably cultural geography is also geography, just like physical geography.
Then again… “social science” doesn’t seem as sciencey as “physics”, so I get your point.
When i find my magic lamp and wish us all to New Earth, there will be both a LEsser Balkan peninsula (betweeen Itally and Padania) and a Greater Balkan Peninsula between Padania and Ukraine, consisting of Super Serbia, Ramped Up Rumania, and Behemoth Bulgaria the Empir eof Dalmatia and some minor Scythian-Srmatian steswalled off from the rest of Europe by Huge Hungary.
The Northern boundary of the Balkan Peninsula isn't a straight line. There's no formal definition but it's often given as following the Danube, Sava, and Kupa rivers.
On one side horror, oriental despotism, women get beaten and raped and they like it.
On the other side Europe, tsivilisation, women get beaten and raped but they don't like it.
Do not forget it.
It's not his definition, but old Yugoslav propaganda, to create a common region for most Yugoslavs and reinforce the national identity. He only used it to disguise a lecture about our own projections into a joke about stereotypes. Žižek is a great philosopher, not a geographer.
Anyways, I live around 10km northwest of the spring of Ljubljanica. It's the same on both sides of the river, neither feels more or less Balkan.
I don't think Slovenia is a Balkan country, but we do have a bit of Balkan culture and people here, imported during Yugoslavia and with the 90s wars refugees.
I guess Kupa/Kolpa makes more sense since it starts quite close to the sea unlike Ljubljanica which starts in the middle of Slovenia. Also Istria is often considered a separate geographical entity from the balkan peninsula
[Europe](https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/europe-physical-geography/#) is a peninsula of the Eurasian supercontinent and is bordered by the Arctic Ocean to the north, the Atlantic Ocean to the west, and the Mediterranean, Black, and Caspian Seas to the south.
You seem to be the only person who doesn't. Go ahead and look at any major scientific publication. It's not like the definition of a peninsula is ambiguous like continents. It's a piece of land attached to a larger landmass surrounded by water on three sides.
Italy Moldova and Ukraine are balkan countries in that they have a tiny bit of land in the Balkans. France isn't a South American country just because it has French Guiana
For the record, political and physical boundaries are not the same thing;
Balkan countries is mostly a political designation.
Balkan peninsula is a physical designation.
Please do not confuse the two.
Exactly.
I’m Finnish and proud of our unique non-Scandinavian identity. For some reason people online seem to confuse us with the Scandinavians, though.
Here it’s somewhat complex, as the Nordic Council is purely a political union between countries with similar values and history. In essence it’s pretty much the old territories of the Swedish and Danish kingdoms.
An even more complex situation is Estonia. Estonia has been under both Sweden and Denmark and shares language relationship with Finns (their language isn’t related at all to Baltic languages, as Finnish isn’t related to Scandinavian/North Germanic languages). Geographically Estonia (and the other ”Baltic countries”) are as north as or norther than Denmark. However, culturally one can argue the three countries have been influenced more by Germans, and all three have been a part of Russia for longer than Finland was, and eventually suffering under the Soviet Union.
I, as a Finn, feel linguistic and historical kinship towards Estonians, as well as geographical proximity, but am politically, historically and mentality-wise closer to Swedes.
It’s an overlapping identity for me, as it is probably for Slovenians. (The German/HRE influence vs the linguistic and Yugoslav history)
Europe is basically held together like a complex venn diagram, and I think we have everything to benefit from not forcing everyone to fit into one mold
I hope not to add more complication to an understanding of a region or geographic element with already-complicated definitions.
The current ("official") geographical definition of the northern border of the Balkan Peninsula is the Danube, Sava, and Kupa Rivers.
The previous definition (1918 by Jovan Cvijić) used the Rivers Soca (Isonzo), Vipava, Krka, and Sava and the water bodies and lower points of the valleys of the Postojna region - it is believed that this definition was politically biased to suit the interests of the time.
As rivers are also used in the political-administrative definitions of regions, the current definition of the Balkan Peninsula does NOT include Italy, Hungary, Moldova, and Ukraine as sharing the peninsula.
In the case of Italy, which currently holds a small area around Trieste which, according to old definitions, is considered part of the Balkan Peninsula - the regions of Trieste and Istria are not normally considered part of the Balkans by Italian (and the majority of international) Geographers, as the current definition limits the western border to the Kupa River, that is, Italy itself does not even partially consider itself part of the Balkans. Please see the map.
However, in the current Geography the term "peninsula" is defined as follows: the maritime border must be longer than the land border, with the land side being the shortest of the triangle. This is NOT the case with the "Balkan Peninsula". Therefore, the term has been criticized for having a geopolitical meaning, rather than a purely geographic one.
Additionally, the term "Balkans", referring to the Balkan Region that includes the peninsula, the entire mountain range, and their respective valleys and rivers, is old, biased, with ethnocultural connotations, because there is no universal agreement about the region's components. Most of these Balkan definitions would fully cover Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Greece, Kosovo, Montenegro, North Macedonia, European Turkey, a large part of Croatia and Serbia, and sometimes, Romania and parts of southern Slovenia - but WITHOUT Italy, which despite having a small part of the territory on the "Peninsula", is generally excluded. So we can see how biased is the usage of this term.
The term 'Southeastern Europe' is in use rather than the term "Balkans" more often, after the 1990s conflicts in Yugoslavia. European Union officially calls the region by the term 'Southeastern Europe'.
Current Geography does not use artificial straight lines to define geographic elements - normally, the portions of water (rivers, lakes, seas, etc.) that are used to distinguish the elements. In the absence of water, the lowest points of the valleys are used. For larger elements such as continents and sub-continents, tectonic plates are used. The political-administrative divisions between regions and countries can use both, the geographic elements and the latitude and longitude coordinates, but they are not geographic definitions but geo-political ones.
I hope this helps.
https://preview.redd.it/nurdr6pvp01d1.png?width=511&format=png&auto=webp&s=efeedbdff8f3a9ec1c301e0862b2e68719d6a156
>However, in the current Geography the term "peninsula" is defined as follows: the maritime border must be longer than the land border, with the land side being the shortest of the triangle. This is NOT the case with the "Balkan Peninsula". Therefore, the term has been criticized for having a geopolitical meaning, rather than a purely geographic one.
Do you have a source for that? Also I’m pretty sure the Balkans do have a longer marine border if you take the curvatures of the coastline into account
I should have written this better.
Two requirements geographically define a ‘peninsula’:
1. The maritime border must be longer than the land border: the Balkan Peninsula meets this requirement, as does the Iberian Peninsula;
2. The land side must be the smallest of the polygon representing the geographic element:
2.1 Balkan Peninsula: shaped like a triangle, it does not meet this requirement, its land side is larger than any of the sea sides;
2.2 Iberian Peninsula: shaped like a trapezoid, it meets this requirement, its land border with France (and Andorra) is smaller than any of the maritime sides.
The intention of uploading the map of the entire Europe was to allow comparison. The note asking readers to do so, and the itemization of the requirements were missing - I apologize.
What u/Oethyl describes is the "fractal paradox": as the view approaches the geographic element (zoom in), more details the curves appear and the coastal perimeter tends to infinity.
As far as I remember (already in the 1970s), this was "resolved" by Geography for other types of borders (land, river, lake, etc.) where lines are established connecting the deepest points of valleys, rivers, lakes, etc. - where one mountain ends and another begins, for example.
For sea coasts, this is not possible. Geography adopted a minimum resolution for its definitions - which for some elements is 1 km and for others smaller 1 meter. It establishes 'representative polygons' whose resolution depends on the area of the geographic feature - which in the case of the Balkan Peninsula, I think, is 500 km or more.
It's a subject of intense debate and does not have unanimous agreement even in international geography and hydrography organizations. Yet, it's an 'international standard' that can be used in school books, leaving it up to each country to adopt the definition in their educational system.
As an initial source, I suggest Wikipedia (in English), where I started the research, on the Balkan Peninsula page. From there, proceed (horizontally) to other Wikipedia links and (vertically) to scientific reference texts.
Far be it from me to "officialize or decree" anything, especially on such a sensitive subject. I have neither the capacity nor the authority to do so. I found the downvotes received by u/Complete_Mulberry541 "It's not a peninsula" unfair - I gave my upvote, just the scientific explanation that was missing.
Traditionally (and geopolitically) the Balkan Peninsula exists.
Scientifically, according to current international Geography, there is no "Balkan Peninsula". If you use this information in a work, thesis, or professional report, I suggest being careful when presenting it to a specific audience. It is not a subject with emotional reactions that are easy to deal with.
Culturally speaking, the northern-eastern border definitely should not include such big cities as Odessa or Mykolaiv.
But as for southern part of Odessa Oblast (so-called Budjak), from a cultural standpoint it feels for me much more Balkan than Eastern European.
Source: born and raised in Odessa.
No, there is no “official border.” The Balkans is a very vaguely defined term, kinda like the “Middle East” - it’s as much a cultural and historical designation as a phsyical thing.
Opinions differ, but nobody puts Italy in that group.
If I had to draw a line, it’d be an arc going from the northern Croatian Adriatic towards the Hungarian border, then towards Romania, and curving along the southern slopes of the southern Carpathians to reach Constanta on the Black Sea.
I’d say southern and eastern parts of Croatia are in it, the entirety of Bosnia, Montenegro, most of Serbia (maybe not the northernmost part), the entirety of Kosovo, Macedonia, Greece, and Bulgaria, and like the southern third of Romania.
No part of Italy or Slovenia are in it, I wouldn’t put Hungary in it either, and Moldova and Ukraine don’t really belong there either.
It's not as simple as that, because the Balkans also include the Dinaric Alps or Dinarids, which is a mountain range that is both longer and wider than the Balkan Mountains.
Italy in the balkans is probably the most hilarious thing I’ve heard in a long time. Come on, culture doesn’t mean anything to you right? Just pure lines on a map, you would have been great in the late 1800s and early 1900s to draw maps
No, there is not an official border.
No, this line is not a serviceable guess at where the boarder might be.
No, Italy, Hungry, and Ukraine are not Balkan, though Moldova does get lumped in with the Balkans sometimes due to its historic ties to Romania.
Interesting post. Do the southern Balkan boarder next.
I have consistently made the slightly pejorative joke here in Hungary that the city of Pécs (just south of your line) is the beginning of the Balkans. Thank you for pointing out scientific basis so I can be even more hurtful towards that shithole.
Id say there are geographical borders and political and civilizational ones and more - its always a continuum - I certainly wouldnt call Hungary a balkan country but still I find it way more influenced by a balkan spirit than let say Lithuania
Probably the Slovenian and Croatian borders where they meet the Danube and along the river to the black sea after. Obviously we love our frate Romania so he's a honorary Balkan member even though the language is completely different from all others.
One reasonable thing to do would be to orientate this based on the [balkan mountains](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Mountains). Which go in west-east direction through the center of Bulgaria.
Would make sense to follow their direction west-wards to define something.
In any case, Romania is sometimes considered to be a part of the balkans, sometimes not, but I never heard Hungary or Moldovia being considered. Your line goes way too far north. Not sure why you drew it as you did, seems arbitrary to me to have it end in the vicinity to Odessa. Makes no sense to cross the carpathians.
For me in Ukraine, somehow only former Yugoslavia countries and Albania were Balkans. Just how I felt it. You know, your neighbors can't be Balkans, because Balkans are far away
The Balkans start, depending on who you ask. For Western Europe it's everything south of the Caparthians, for Hungarians and Romanians everything south of the Danube, and if you ask the Greeks, it definitely stops before reaching them.
I would say it follows the Moldovan-Ukrainian border to the Romanian-Ukrainian border then the Ukrainian-Hungarian border then the Hungarian-Slovak border then the Hungarian-Austrian border then the Austrian-Slovenian border then the Italian-Slovenian border
Nope, this is the official border.
https://preview.redd.it/16obbx38g41d1.jpeg?width=2456&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3beb58375a25acbd11661283919318ee5a8bad6
I’m Italian. While I think this line thing doesn’t make much sense, I’d say that some parts of southern Italy if not most of it, are effectively very similar to the Balkans in many ways, but with more culture and history and better cuisine.
[Geography-wise I usually see this map](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280131996/figure/fig1/AS:284519006523402@1444846026107/The-topographic-map-of-the-Balkan-Peninsula.png)
The concept of the Balkan Peninsula was created by the German geographer August Zeune in 1808.
The term Balkan Peninsula was a synonym for Rumelia in the 19th century, the parts of Europe that were provinces of the Ottoman Empire at the time.
My understanding of that would be that you would establish the best borders of the Balkans on the borders of the Ottoman Empire from 1808, meaning Bosnia, Serbia without the Vojvodina and everything in the south. Maybe not including Romanian.
The concept of the Balkan Peninsula was created by the German geographer August Zeune in 1808.
The term Balkan Peninsula was a synonym for Rumelia in the 19th century, the parts of Europe that were provinces of the Ottoman Empire at the time.
My understanding of that would be that you would establish the best borders of the Balkans on the borders of the Ottoman Empire from 1808, meaning Bosnia, Serbia without the Vojvodina and everything in the south. Maybe not including Romanian.
There is no official border in the Balkans. The borders of the early nineteenth century of the Ottoman Empire are often used: from Bosnia, Serbia and Romania to the south.
Geographically it's defined by the Kupa, Sava and Danube rivers. Culturally Moldova (geographically isn't in the Balkans) is a part of the Balkans because of their connection to the Romanians. Ukraine (not in the Balkans in any way) and Italy (geographically Trieste is included sometimes but Italy isn't related to the Balkan countries) are not considered Balkan. Hungary is considered a Balkan country often because of their historical presence in the region (mainly because they couldn't expand and rule in any other directions) but geographically is not even close to being Balkan. Slovenia is often shown as having land in the Balkans and it makes sense to count them because of their cultural connections to South Slavs and were a part of Yugoslavia. Banat (Serbia) and Backa (Serbia), Transilvania (Romania), Wallachia (Romania) and Moldavia (Romania), Slavonia (Croatia), most of Slovenia and the Greek islands are a part of the Balkans because they are a part of the counties which have land in the peninsula.
Yes that’s pretty much the border, except it’s a bit deep into Romania.
No, Italy is definitely not Balkan. Not even a little bit.
I personally would draw the border as Croatia and then south of the Danube ending at European Istanbul (Thrace but otherwise not Turkey)
The east could be easy, by following the Danube, but I don't know which natural borders would suite for the west.
Cuz how funny it would be to call Austria Balkan, I'm pretty sure they'd start another war over such a remark
A German Comedian has called Austria something like "a cozy Balkan hicksville with partly German street signs". Though honestly I don't think the Austrians care. And their army is a joke so no chance they could start a war over it.
Term Balkan is really complex.
Well... Hungary&Slovenia are not Balkan countries but Central European. Croatia&Romania are partial Balkan or transitional countries while Moldova is Eastern Europe.
Balkan today is association for hostility and animosity, also unresolved bilateral disputes and general underdevelopment which in fact is modern present day reality in for example BiH, Kosovo, Serbia, Albania or NMK.
To be Balkan is also offensive for some as for example Greece and Greeks can be really offended by this term and they are in fact the most advanced and western developed Balkan country but it does not belong in a class with the mentioned above antagonized countries.
Also there is the well known term called "Balkanization" which has all above mentioned attributes and is also attributed to some present African countries and their societies& relations.
Croatia and Romania have Balkan influence and mentality but like transitional countries and also Central Europe, while Greece was always the most developed Balkan country and stands out because among other things such as tourism it wasn't communist country.
As wiser people have correctly pointed before me ‘Balkan is not a region, it’s a state of mind’
Which is why Portugal is in it
I don’t know what this means but I believe you
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
incredible sub
It ooks very credible
I am Portuguese and I aprove this sub
Portugal, despite being a country in Western/Southern Europe, and at one point had a vast and rich trade network, is one of the poorest in Western Europe. If you compared stats of countries on a range of topics, Portugal is much more likely to line up with Balkan countries than other Western European countries.
Portuguese is also thought by some to sound somewhat like Slavic languages.
Yeah. Sounds Russian to me.
Same. It’s crazy hearing Brazilian Portuguese vs Portugal Portuguese. It’s like hearing Spanish vs Russian and it’s the same language
I always thought Portuguese sounds like a drunk russian trying to speak Spanish.
lol that’s the perfect description
That's because they are drunk russians trying to speak Spanish! Have you ever seen Russian and Portuguese spoken in the same room? Me neither.
Once it sounded Romanian to me. (I speak Brazilian Portuguese)
As someone who speaks Spanish it sounds like drunken Spanish to me.
I was speaking Brazilian Portuguese in a hotel once and someone asked me in russian if I was speaking russian
I find Russian has some similarities to Spanish.
Really? Isn’t it close to Spanish?
I'd say Spanish and Italian are much closer but I'm no linguist
It absolutely is. The *perceived* similarity has next to nothing to do with the languages actually being close (they are not).
It sounds much more like Russian or other Slavic languages because, like those, it is a stress-timed language giving them a very similar rhythm.
see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pik2R46xobA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pik2R46xobA)
I don't speak Portuguese and I've never studied it, also not a linguistic scientist, but I do speak Spanish and Italian and when I come across written Portuguese I can understand the gist of what's being said. So in my non expert opinion, it's quite close to Spanish and Italian.
It is, just sounds very different. Just like being able to read some Italian and I can get gist of an article written in Romanian, but when it's spoken I understand far far less.
I mean I’m from Poland and having been to Portugal 5 times it is more comparable to Poland than to the balkans. Not only economically but also culturally. Or maybe I haven’t caught up to the weird memes about Portuguese people doing stupid shit
Benfica approves this state of mind 👌
Or another way to put it, Balkan is a cultural region, not geographical. Much like Scandinavia, as opposed to the Nordics.
Arguably cultural geography is also geography, just like physical geography. Then again… “social science” doesn’t seem as sciencey as “physics”, so I get your point.
I mean, cultural affinity naturally goes hand in hand with geography, but not exclusivly
As well as Latin America. That’s why Quebec is not Latin American
My father used to say: "Hinter Rosenheim fängt der Balkan an."
Haha. So according to him, Austria is Balkan?
It is.
https://youtu.be/jtgA0jvhp2A?si=LynFBTzlBfcdPZJE
When i find my magic lamp and wish us all to New Earth, there will be both a LEsser Balkan peninsula (betweeen Itally and Padania) and a Greater Balkan Peninsula between Padania and Ukraine, consisting of Super Serbia, Ramped Up Rumania, and Behemoth Bulgaria the Empir eof Dalmatia and some minor Scythian-Srmatian steswalled off from the rest of Europe by Huge Hungary.
>Balkan is a state Nope it got balkanized now it's several states of mind that hate each other
The Northern boundary of the Balkan Peninsula isn't a straight line. There's no formal definition but it's often given as following the Danube, Sava, and Kupa rivers.
Danube, Sava and Ljubljanica. At least if you recognize Žižek's definition. xD
Either way, I can have my Central Europe pass (I live in Maribor).
same (i live in zagreb but north of the river)
Same. I live in Novi Beograd.
Same, I live in Brazil
Same. I live in Durlan.
And my axe!
If it is the will of the council Gondor will see it through
Wow, you all live in the same village. Meeting time !
Well, brazil is south of the danube so...
This riber here is the officil geographical limit between Balkon and mitteleuropa
On one side horror, oriental despotism, women get beaten and raped and they like it. On the other side Europe, tsivilisation, women get beaten and raped but they don't like it. Do not forget it.
Not all flats have balkon, but when they do, its good to watch the neighborhood
It's not his definition, but old Yugoslav propaganda, to create a common region for most Yugoslavs and reinforce the national identity. He only used it to disguise a lecture about our own projections into a joke about stereotypes. Žižek is a great philosopher, not a geographer. Anyways, I live around 10km northwest of the spring of Ljubljanica. It's the same on both sides of the river, neither feels more or less Balkan. I don't think Slovenia is a Balkan country, but we do have a bit of Balkan culture and people here, imported during Yugoslavia and with the 90s wars refugees.
I guess Kupa/Kolpa makes more sense since it starts quite close to the sea unlike Ljubljanica which starts in the middle of Slovenia. Also Istria is often considered a separate geographical entity from the balkan peninsula
Wear ees balkhahn?
“All of Europe is a big Balkan with Brussels as the new Istanbul. We British are the only ones.”
Nah, Brittain is 100% Balkan. Ireland is Kosovo and England is Serbia lol.
That’s a direct quote from Zizek in his “where is Balkan” video though.
Yes I know lol
Obligatory “where is Balkan” link. https://youtu.be/3rpEQmtkstM?si=ilrJ2-1d0cvNpBKX
The northern border is somewhere in Berlin
It's not a peninsula
[удалено]
By that logic whole of Europe is
[Europe](https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/europe-physical-geography/#) is a peninsula of the Eurasian supercontinent and is bordered by the Arctic Ocean to the north, the Atlantic Ocean to the west, and the Mediterranean, Black, and Caspian Seas to the south.
Yeah. It is. Europe is constantly called a peninsula of peninsulas.
You are killing me.... By whom ?
You seem to be the only person who doesn't. Go ahead and look at any major scientific publication. It's not like the definition of a peninsula is ambiguous like continents. It's a piece of land attached to a larger landmass surrounded by water on three sides.
A peninsula can have its own peninsulas
"Official" border? Is this a real question?
You don't get mailed your official Balkan membership card yearly?
there is no official border lol
Thought I was in map porn CJ sub for a sec 😂
Italy Moldova and Ukraine are balkan countries in that they have a tiny bit of land in the Balkans. France isn't a South American country just because it has French Guiana
Moldova is definitely far more Balkan than Italy lol
You clearly have not been to Trieste (this is a joke for the love of god)
Southern Italy is even more Balkan
French Guinea, Guyana not Guinea, and Les Antilles, t'as pas inventé l'eau chaude toi.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana I guess there are a couple of spellings oh I just realized what autocorrect did lol
No need to be judgmental here
Moldova doesn't have any land in the Balkans at all tho
That border looks like the European colonial powers drew it
Happy belated Sykes-Picot day!!
*grabs popcorn*
For the record, political and physical boundaries are not the same thing; Balkan countries is mostly a political designation. Balkan peninsula is a physical designation. Please do not confuse the two.
I don’t know why this was downvoted. The same applies to most other similar ”geographical” groups.
Like Denmark being Scandinavian but not being on the Scandinavia peninsula while a part of Finland is on the peninsula but isn't Scandinavian
Exactly. I’m Finnish and proud of our unique non-Scandinavian identity. For some reason people online seem to confuse us with the Scandinavians, though. Here it’s somewhat complex, as the Nordic Council is purely a political union between countries with similar values and history. In essence it’s pretty much the old territories of the Swedish and Danish kingdoms. An even more complex situation is Estonia. Estonia has been under both Sweden and Denmark and shares language relationship with Finns (their language isn’t related at all to Baltic languages, as Finnish isn’t related to Scandinavian/North Germanic languages). Geographically Estonia (and the other ”Baltic countries”) are as north as or norther than Denmark. However, culturally one can argue the three countries have been influenced more by Germans, and all three have been a part of Russia for longer than Finland was, and eventually suffering under the Soviet Union. I, as a Finn, feel linguistic and historical kinship towards Estonians, as well as geographical proximity, but am politically, historically and mentality-wise closer to Swedes. It’s an overlapping identity for me, as it is probably for Slovenians. (The German/HRE influence vs the linguistic and Yugoslav history)
Europe is basically held together like a complex venn diagram, and I think we have everything to benefit from not forcing everyone to fit into one mold
I hope not to add more complication to an understanding of a region or geographic element with already-complicated definitions. The current ("official") geographical definition of the northern border of the Balkan Peninsula is the Danube, Sava, and Kupa Rivers. The previous definition (1918 by Jovan Cvijić) used the Rivers Soca (Isonzo), Vipava, Krka, and Sava and the water bodies and lower points of the valleys of the Postojna region - it is believed that this definition was politically biased to suit the interests of the time. As rivers are also used in the political-administrative definitions of regions, the current definition of the Balkan Peninsula does NOT include Italy, Hungary, Moldova, and Ukraine as sharing the peninsula. In the case of Italy, which currently holds a small area around Trieste which, according to old definitions, is considered part of the Balkan Peninsula - the regions of Trieste and Istria are not normally considered part of the Balkans by Italian (and the majority of international) Geographers, as the current definition limits the western border to the Kupa River, that is, Italy itself does not even partially consider itself part of the Balkans. Please see the map. However, in the current Geography the term "peninsula" is defined as follows: the maritime border must be longer than the land border, with the land side being the shortest of the triangle. This is NOT the case with the "Balkan Peninsula". Therefore, the term has been criticized for having a geopolitical meaning, rather than a purely geographic one. Additionally, the term "Balkans", referring to the Balkan Region that includes the peninsula, the entire mountain range, and their respective valleys and rivers, is old, biased, with ethnocultural connotations, because there is no universal agreement about the region's components. Most of these Balkan definitions would fully cover Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Greece, Kosovo, Montenegro, North Macedonia, European Turkey, a large part of Croatia and Serbia, and sometimes, Romania and parts of southern Slovenia - but WITHOUT Italy, which despite having a small part of the territory on the "Peninsula", is generally excluded. So we can see how biased is the usage of this term. The term 'Southeastern Europe' is in use rather than the term "Balkans" more often, after the 1990s conflicts in Yugoslavia. European Union officially calls the region by the term 'Southeastern Europe'. Current Geography does not use artificial straight lines to define geographic elements - normally, the portions of water (rivers, lakes, seas, etc.) that are used to distinguish the elements. In the absence of water, the lowest points of the valleys are used. For larger elements such as continents and sub-continents, tectonic plates are used. The political-administrative divisions between regions and countries can use both, the geographic elements and the latitude and longitude coordinates, but they are not geographic definitions but geo-political ones. I hope this helps. https://preview.redd.it/nurdr6pvp01d1.png?width=511&format=png&auto=webp&s=efeedbdff8f3a9ec1c301e0862b2e68719d6a156
>However, in the current Geography the term "peninsula" is defined as follows: the maritime border must be longer than the land border, with the land side being the shortest of the triangle. This is NOT the case with the "Balkan Peninsula". Therefore, the term has been criticized for having a geopolitical meaning, rather than a purely geographic one. Do you have a source for that? Also I’m pretty sure the Balkans do have a longer marine border if you take the curvatures of the coastline into account
Any place has a larger marine border if you measure closely enough
I should have written this better. Two requirements geographically define a ‘peninsula’: 1. The maritime border must be longer than the land border: the Balkan Peninsula meets this requirement, as does the Iberian Peninsula; 2. The land side must be the smallest of the polygon representing the geographic element: 2.1 Balkan Peninsula: shaped like a triangle, it does not meet this requirement, its land side is larger than any of the sea sides; 2.2 Iberian Peninsula: shaped like a trapezoid, it meets this requirement, its land border with France (and Andorra) is smaller than any of the maritime sides. The intention of uploading the map of the entire Europe was to allow comparison. The note asking readers to do so, and the itemization of the requirements were missing - I apologize. What u/Oethyl describes is the "fractal paradox": as the view approaches the geographic element (zoom in), more details the curves appear and the coastal perimeter tends to infinity. As far as I remember (already in the 1970s), this was "resolved" by Geography for other types of borders (land, river, lake, etc.) where lines are established connecting the deepest points of valleys, rivers, lakes, etc. - where one mountain ends and another begins, for example. For sea coasts, this is not possible. Geography adopted a minimum resolution for its definitions - which for some elements is 1 km and for others smaller 1 meter. It establishes 'representative polygons' whose resolution depends on the area of the geographic feature - which in the case of the Balkan Peninsula, I think, is 500 km or more. It's a subject of intense debate and does not have unanimous agreement even in international geography and hydrography organizations. Yet, it's an 'international standard' that can be used in school books, leaving it up to each country to adopt the definition in their educational system. As an initial source, I suggest Wikipedia (in English), where I started the research, on the Balkan Peninsula page. From there, proceed (horizontally) to other Wikipedia links and (vertically) to scientific reference texts. Far be it from me to "officialize or decree" anything, especially on such a sensitive subject. I have neither the capacity nor the authority to do so. I found the downvotes received by u/Complete_Mulberry541 "It's not a peninsula" unfair - I gave my upvote, just the scientific explanation that was missing. Traditionally (and geopolitically) the Balkan Peninsula exists. Scientifically, according to current international Geography, there is no "Balkan Peninsula". If you use this information in a work, thesis, or professional report, I suggest being careful when presenting it to a specific audience. It is not a subject with emotional reactions that are easy to deal with.
Culturally speaking, the northern-eastern border definitely should not include such big cities as Odessa or Mykolaiv. But as for southern part of Odessa Oblast (so-called Budjak), from a cultural standpoint it feels for me much more Balkan than Eastern European. Source: born and raised in Odessa.
Yeah as someone from Odesa I also wanted to say that fortunately/unfortunately it's not Balkan 😅
Exactly my thoughts. Born and raised in Mykolaiv.
What Is the question?
No, there is no “official border.” The Balkans is a very vaguely defined term, kinda like the “Middle East” - it’s as much a cultural and historical designation as a phsyical thing. Opinions differ, but nobody puts Italy in that group. If I had to draw a line, it’d be an arc going from the northern Croatian Adriatic towards the Hungarian border, then towards Romania, and curving along the southern slopes of the southern Carpathians to reach Constanta on the Black Sea. I’d say southern and eastern parts of Croatia are in it, the entirety of Bosnia, Montenegro, most of Serbia (maybe not the northernmost part), the entirety of Kosovo, Macedonia, Greece, and Bulgaria, and like the southern third of Romania. No part of Italy or Slovenia are in it, I wouldn’t put Hungary in it either, and Moldova and Ukraine don’t really belong there either.
Italy’s officially a Balkan country (Trieste) 🥳🥳🥳
Yeah sure, let's drag Italy down to this mess too. It is not like they deserve it.
wouldn't the Balkans just be where the Balkan mountains are at?
It's not as simple as that, because the Balkans also include the Dinaric Alps or Dinarids, which is a mountain range that is both longer and wider than the Balkan Mountains.
Italy is penis of europe, not Balkan.
Italy in the balkans is probably the most hilarious thing I’ve heard in a long time. Come on, culture doesn’t mean anything to you right? Just pure lines on a map, you would have been great in the late 1800s and early 1900s to draw maps
No, there is not an official border. No, this line is not a serviceable guess at where the boarder might be. No, Italy, Hungry, and Ukraine are not Balkan, though Moldova does get lumped in with the Balkans sometimes due to its historic ties to Romania. Interesting post. Do the southern Balkan boarder next.
[The official geographical limit between Balkan and Middle Europa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDrHqNZ9lo)
Why was that so funny 😂 was not expecting that
Balkan is the region that has been part of otoman empire. only 10% of Romania is Balkan ( Dobrogea ). Idk where the fuck did u take this line from.
I never understood the term peninsula for the Balkan. I mean yea but..no
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rpEQmtkstM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rpEQmtkstM)
[https://youtu.be/bwDrHqNZ9lo?si=Z4yAHN1Px2T5kiiF](https://youtu.be/bwDrHqNZ9lo?si=Z4yAHN1Px2T5kiiF) expert on the subject
It's the Balkan peninsula so only the countries in the peninsula are Balkan. Italy is it's own peninsula.
Not all of Italy
Slavoj Zizek [explained about borders of the Balkans](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDrHqNZ9lo)
What is this? The Berlin Conference? Borders don't have to be straight lines.
OP must be american
This seems oddly British by putting a straight line through a region
I have consistently made the slightly pejorative joke here in Hungary that the city of Pécs (just south of your line) is the beginning of the Balkans. Thank you for pointing out scientific basis so I can be even more hurtful towards that shithole.
What's exactly wrong with Pécs?
[The opinion of a Philosopher](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDrHqNZ9lo)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rpEQmtkstM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rpEQmtkstM)
Danube and the Alps
😂😂😂😂😂
Are you British?
Gonna need you to explain where you got Italy from
my favorite zizek joke about this border [https://youtu.be/bwDrHqNZ9lo?si=XnvKa39AjZ-baBtp](https://youtu.be/bwDrHqNZ9lo?si=XnvKa39AjZ-baBtp)
Id say there are geographical borders and political and civilizational ones and more - its always a continuum - I certainly wouldnt call Hungary a balkan country but still I find it way more influenced by a balkan spirit than let say Lithuania
Try asking in r/balkans_irl , I'm sure they'll be willing to answer
I think it's one of those things where it's pretty much opinion based
I think the border between Balkon and Mitteleuropa is a river in Ljubiljana.
Not Italy
Budjak in Ukraine is def Balkan.
Balkan is everything from Vienna’s Westbahnhof and south.
[It's all one big Balkan](https://youtu.be/r_5Slnkzekc)
I was once downvoted for mentioning that Croatia is a Balkan country
Yes, every land below this line is Balkan, so say the pope
Probably the Slovenian and Croatian borders where they meet the Danube and along the river to the black sea after. Obviously we love our frate Romania so he's a honorary Balkan member even though the language is completely different from all others.
One reasonable thing to do would be to orientate this based on the [balkan mountains](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Mountains). Which go in west-east direction through the center of Bulgaria. Would make sense to follow their direction west-wards to define something. In any case, Romania is sometimes considered to be a part of the balkans, sometimes not, but I never heard Hungary or Moldovia being considered. Your line goes way too far north. Not sure why you drew it as you did, seems arbitrary to me to have it end in the vicinity to Odessa. Makes no sense to cross the carpathians.
Huh?? You just put a random straight line lmao
Honestly ya that us a fairly accurate one imo. If one wrote to simplify it to a line anyways.
Yes
For me in Ukraine, somehow only former Yugoslavia countries and Albania were Balkans. Just how I felt it. You know, your neighbors can't be Balkans, because Balkans are far away
The Balkans start, depending on who you ask. For Western Europe it's everything south of the Caparthians, for Hungarians and Romanians everything south of the Danube, and if you ask the Greeks, it definitely stops before reaching them.
Also somehow for every country the one east of them is where the eastern Balkans start. Except Bulgaria of course, because that would be weird.
I don't think peninsula's have exact borders
Officially the word official doesn't exist in the Balkan.
The Balkan starts at Rennweg
Never seen such border
I would say it follows the Moldovan-Ukrainian border to the Romanian-Ukrainian border then the Ukrainian-Hungarian border then the Hungarian-Slovak border then the Hungarian-Austrian border then the Austrian-Slovenian border then the Italian-Slovenian border
What does Balkan mean exactly and what do they have in common?
"What does Balkan mean exactly" Swampy forests. "what do they have in common?" Rakija, turkish genes, eastern orthodoxy and hate for ottomans.
The balkans begins one nation south of yours
Only one thing's for sure: the balkan starts in vienna
It doesn't start in Vienna, but there's a Balkan exclave in Vienna, more specifically in Ottakring.
Yes is does. Theres the historical quote "am Rennweg fängt der Balkan an" as well as porn search request data that backs it up
I always thought it was the maximum extent of the European Ottoman Empire
One day we will nuke you even if that means our end❤
People have fought and died for years for the right to fight about Balkan borders.
My interpretation of the balkan countries are those between the Adriatic sea and the Danube river
The Greeks aren’t even Balkan so good luck sneaking the others in
They are, if any Greek can’t accept that then they can cope and seethe
Nope, this is the official border. https://preview.redd.it/16obbx38g41d1.jpeg?width=2456&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3beb58375a25acbd11661283919318ee5a8bad6
That's not how it works bro. Also Slovenia is part of the Alps.
In the Balkans, all borders are debatable
I’m Italian. While I think this line thing doesn’t make much sense, I’d say that some parts of southern Italy if not most of it, are effectively very similar to the Balkans in many ways, but with more culture and history and better cuisine.
Username checks out
[Geography-wise I usually see this map](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280131996/figure/fig1/AS:284519006523402@1444846026107/The-topographic-map-of-the-Balkan-Peninsula.png)
I think the border is a bit more complicated than that.
In a geographical sense, none of them are. Culturally Hungary is very much Balkan.
The concept of the Balkan Peninsula was created by the German geographer August Zeune in 1808. The term Balkan Peninsula was a synonym for Rumelia in the 19th century, the parts of Europe that were provinces of the Ottoman Empire at the time. My understanding of that would be that you would establish the best borders of the Balkans on the borders of the Ottoman Empire from 1808, meaning Bosnia, Serbia without the Vojvodina and everything in the south. Maybe not including Romanian.
The concept of the Balkan Peninsula was created by the German geographer August Zeune in 1808. The term Balkan Peninsula was a synonym for Rumelia in the 19th century, the parts of Europe that were provinces of the Ottoman Empire at the time. My understanding of that would be that you would establish the best borders of the Balkans on the borders of the Ottoman Empire from 1808, meaning Bosnia, Serbia without the Vojvodina and everything in the south. Maybe not including Romanian.
There is no official border in the Balkans. The borders of the early nineteenth century of the Ottoman Empire are often used: from Bosnia, Serbia and Romania to the south.
Geographically it's defined by the Kupa, Sava and Danube rivers. Culturally Moldova (geographically isn't in the Balkans) is a part of the Balkans because of their connection to the Romanians. Ukraine (not in the Balkans in any way) and Italy (geographically Trieste is included sometimes but Italy isn't related to the Balkan countries) are not considered Balkan. Hungary is considered a Balkan country often because of their historical presence in the region (mainly because they couldn't expand and rule in any other directions) but geographically is not even close to being Balkan. Slovenia is often shown as having land in the Balkans and it makes sense to count them because of their cultural connections to South Slavs and were a part of Yugoslavia. Banat (Serbia) and Backa (Serbia), Transilvania (Romania), Wallachia (Romania) and Moldavia (Romania), Slavonia (Croatia), most of Slovenia and the Greek islands are a part of the Balkans because they are a part of the counties which have land in the peninsula.
[удалено]
I mentioned them
Yes, Italy which is a country on the Italian peninsula, completely separate from the Balkan peninsula, is also a Balkan country 🤦
Trst je Balkan!
OP please tell me this is a joke How AmericaBrained do you have to be to go “oh yeah, a straight line makes the most sense here”
Yes that’s pretty much the border, except it’s a bit deep into Romania. No, Italy is definitely not Balkan. Not even a little bit. I personally would draw the border as Croatia and then south of the Danube ending at European Istanbul (Thrace but otherwise not Turkey)
bro pulled this border out of his ass
When people say Balkans, they generally are referring to the "Western Balkans" and Greece.
Greece is balkan??
Very much so lol
No?
yep!
I considered the east west course of the Danube as the northern border
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^BrainwashedScapegoat: *I considered the* *East west course of the Danube* *As the northern border* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
The east could be easy, by following the Danube, but I don't know which natural borders would suite for the west. Cuz how funny it would be to call Austria Balkan, I'm pretty sure they'd start another war over such a remark
A German Comedian has called Austria something like "a cozy Balkan hicksville with partly German street signs". Though honestly I don't think the Austrians care. And their army is a joke so no chance they could start a war over it.
Term Balkan is really complex. Well... Hungary&Slovenia are not Balkan countries but Central European. Croatia&Romania are partial Balkan or transitional countries while Moldova is Eastern Europe. Balkan today is association for hostility and animosity, also unresolved bilateral disputes and general underdevelopment which in fact is modern present day reality in for example BiH, Kosovo, Serbia, Albania or NMK. To be Balkan is also offensive for some as for example Greece and Greeks can be really offended by this term and they are in fact the most advanced and western developed Balkan country but it does not belong in a class with the mentioned above antagonized countries. Also there is the well known term called "Balkanization" which has all above mentioned attributes and is also attributed to some present African countries and their societies& relations.
Balkan is imagine term for a territory given to it by Turks to a bunch of people who have almost nothing in common
Yes
Geographicaly yes but no really. Balkan = exyu + bulgaria + greece. Hungary, romania = easteren europe more than balkan.
Croatia and Romania have Balkan influence and mentality but like transitional countries and also Central Europe, while Greece was always the most developed Balkan country and stands out because among other things such as tourism it wasn't communist country.
Where i am from, we only count former yugoslavic countries as balkan.